Muslims, even with their faith, are required to repent (unless they were unaware of doing wrong) — otherwise they will not be forgiven (cf. Q4:17-4:18).
Qur’an Surah 41:30 (that Shabir Ally referred to)
Sahih International
Indeed, those who have said, “Our Lord is Allah ” and then remained on a right course – the angels will descend upon them, [saying], “Do not fear and do not grieve but receive good tidings of Paradise, which you were promised.
“remaining on the right course” is the key. Zozo Al Maslawi is right – most Muslims go to a kind of purgatory or hell for a while and “burn off” their bad deeds and eventually come out to paradise. Bassam Zawadi admitted this in his debate with Thabiti Anyabwile (they did two debates – you can google and find them on the web).
the only assurance for Muslims is dying in Jihad, which most Muslims scholars teach and agree. Bassam Zawadi admitted that the Islamic view is closer to the Roman Catholic view than Protestant Reformed view. Islam has a kind of distinction between big sins and little sins, like the Roman Catholic mortal sins and venial sins. Islam does not call the place they go in between “purgatory”, but hell; but Muslims eventually come out after many years of suffering, depending on how good they were.
I have met many Muslims say to me , “I am not a good Muslim, I don’t pray five times a day”, etc. “I will probably go to the hell-fire for 200 years; and then come out and go to paradise because I am a Muslim” (the knowledge of the one God, as Shabir talked about); “. . . but you, Mr. Ken, you will never come out because you say Jesus is the Son of God and God in the flesh”, etc.
Islam does not even define going to paradise/heaven as “salvation from sin”; rather it is earning one’s way to paradise by faith plus good works.
The Biblical Christian understanding is being saved from our sins and sinfulness in our hearts (Matthew 1:21-23; Mark 7:20-23; 1 Cor. 15:3-4- Christ died for our sins), then the result of having our sins dealt with by Christ the Savior then we get eternal life/heaven, but we cannot earn that.
Islam has no way to deal with the sinful attitudes in the heart and mind. (no cross, no atonement, no power of the Holy Spirit) All you have is external rituals and laws and punishments and rules; and your own efforts to try and fight your internal lusts and anger, pride, greed, envy, and evil thoughts. The emphasis in Islam is external ritual and law. That is why Sufism / Tasawwuf started; but it came about after Muhammad died.
Shabir Ally’s comment on Philippians 2:12-13 – “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” – this is true, but it does not mean what Shabir said. It does teach us humility, but it is “work out” not “work for”. Islam is “work for” = earn it.
Shabir left out the rest of the context in verse 13, “. . . work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who is in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure.”
We have God the Holy Spirit living inside of us, who helps us and gives us power over temptation and sin and motivates us (willing and makes us willing) and works so that we are able to do good works. All glory goes to God.
the idea is “work out what God has worked inside of you” – apply, be diligent, put forth effort, do right, in holiness and godly living that proves you are truly justified (Romans 5:1; Galatians 2:16) If you have no good works or changed life, you are not a true believer. Just saying “I am a Christian” does not make one a Christian. One must be born again by the Holy Spirit of God. (John 3:1-21) Good works are the result of true justification/ salvation/ true faith.
the other verse that Shabir mentioned – Matthew 7:21-23 – Jesus says “I never knew you, depart from Me, you evil doers” – means that people can claim to be believers, go to church, even claim to do miracles or do miracles ( as Judas did), but they were NEVER true believers on the inside in their hearts. Many are like that today, especially in western culture. I think the many heretical TV evangelists who claim to do miracles ( Like Benny Hinn) are like this, because their greed and opulent livestyle shows they are not true believers; they are just using Christianity to manipulate people to give money.
Wait a moment Ken and other Christians who make the argument of their religion ‘guaranteeing’ them salvation. I had a brief discussion with a famous Christian evangelist lately and he said the same thing.
The point that’s lost here is, just because a faith claims to guarantee you salvation if you believe in it (Trinitarian Christianity in this case) it does NOT make it true. How is that an opening gambit in a conversation with anybody of another faith?
Surely, in this day and age, one would expect the opening gambit to be more in tune with coming to the truth about God and what he wants of us…rather than an emotional ‘promise’ of salvation, After all, somebody could set a faith up tomorrow and promise people salvation if they believed in it. Would you be swayed by a promise? Would you not want to dscuss whether the ‘promise’ is true or not?
Wait a minute, did Paul just say “We have the love and mercy of God, which the quran repeatedly emphasises.”
You can have that selfish love; the type which is only reciprocated if you bow before your Lord (Q3:31-32). And mercy (Q29:23)? You can keep Islam’s concept of mercy to yourself, as well.
” The Quran guarantees all Muslims paradise! See 9:72.”
@Ken, I would also ask you to reflect on this passage in your Bible:
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
That quote is attributed to Jesus by somebody who was called ‘Matthew’. Notice it’s a reference to deeds (i.e. doing the Will of God). Also recognise that Muslims are called Muslims as it refers to those who do the Will of God. An interesting point to note here 🙂
And look at the rest of the passage. Do you notice these people are alleged believers in Jesus (p) yet according to the quote these people will be MANY and they will be rejected by Jesus:
22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Just some very important points for Trinitarian Christians to reflect upon.
Paul – Qur’an Surah 9:72 is in the context of Jihad and Qatal (fighting the unbelievers – verses 1-5, 14, 29-31) – verse 73, etc. the whole Surah of Surah 9 or Toubeh التوبه or “the Immunity” – براء ه (see the word in verse 1)
verses 88-89 defines that the true believers of Muslims will fight with their wealth and their lives and then they will have the gardens. It seems to me that the context and surrounding verses define what being a true believer really is in verse 72.
Surah 4:18 that Zozo referenced shows that you are not telling the whole story, along with the surrounding context of verse 72.
Also, verse 111 of the same surah ( 9 Al Toubeh التوبه ) shows that true believers are involved in Jihad and qatal – they are “killed and kill”
“Indeed, Allah has purchased from the believers their lives and their properties [in exchange] for that they will have Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah , so they kill and are killed. [It is] a true promise [binding] upon Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur’an. And who is truer to his covenant than Allah ? So rejoice in your transaction which you have contracted. And it is that which is the great attainment.” Surah 9:111 Sahih International translation.
Yahya – yeah, I have reflected on this passage a lot in the last 38 years. I think this passage includes all the greedy “name it claim it” prosperity teachers (false prophets) like Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar, Joel Osteen, etc.
Matthew 7:15-23
15 Beware of the false prophets; who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’
We believe in submission to God’s will also, we just don’t go by the name “Muslim” (submitter, one who surrenders’) . A Muslim is “one who submits / surrenders”
To receive Isa Al Masih as Lord and Savior means that you have to submit everything to Him as Lord (Rabb رب / Yahweh / Adonai) (Romans 10:9-10; Luke 14)
Part of that submission is faith and submission to the doctrine of the Trinity – Matthew 28:19 – to be baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
All those nominal Christians and the greedy prosperity teachers who claim to do miracles are going to be surprised on judgement day; yes.
We are justified by faith alone in Christ, but true faith in Christ does not say along, it always results in good works, change, fruit, and deeper levels of repentance and deeper levels of spritiual hunger and growth.
oops – should have been
true faith does not stay alone . . .
We are justified by faith alone in Christ, but true faith in Christ does not stay alone, it always results in good works, change, fruit, and deeper levels of repentance and deeper levels of spritiual hunger and growth.
Matthew, the disciple of Jesus and eyewitness of His ministry and resurrection, wrote the gospel according to Matthew. And those are Jesus’ words and they are inerrant and infallible. All the NT / Injeel is : God-breathed, inerrant, infallible. 2 Tim. 3:16
The point that’s lost here is, just because a faith claims to guarantee you salvation if you believe in it (Trinitarian Christianity in this case) it does NOT make it true. How is that an opening gambit in a conversation with anybody of another faith?
True, but that was the subject of Paul’s post and Shabir Ally’s talk – does Islam guarantee salvation? I don’t think it does; and it is also not true.
Christianity does guarantee salvation from sin, if one truly repents and trusts in Christ, i.e., is born again (John 1:12; John 3:1-21; John 5:24; Romans 10:9-10)
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
You said;
Christianity does guarantee salvation from sin, if one truly repents and trusts in Christ, i.e., is born again (John 1:12; John 3:1-21; John 5:24; Romans 10:9-10)
I say;
If a Christian must truly repents before guaranteeing salvation by Jesus, then the death of Jesus becomes useless, because the blood of Jesus alone did not save the Christian. So, it is a big lie for the Christians to be preaching that believing “Jesus died for your sins” alone will save you. It is not true as Ken Temple has been admitting here for a very long time.
According to the above from Ken’s own mouth, “Christianity does guarantee salvation from sin, if one truly repents and trusts in Christ, i.e., is born again”. Notice the “IF ONE TRULY REPENTS AND TRUST IN CHRIST”. Then why tell lies by Christians that when evangelizing that “If you believe Jesus died for your sins, then you are saved”?
From what you said believing in the death of Christ alone cannot save you unless you truly repent and trust in Christ who is your God, is it not the same as Muslims always preach? and say believe in One and Only God of Abraham, who is alone and sincerely repent from your sins?
The only difference is that the Muslims will not tell lies and say, believing alone without sincere repentance will save anyone but Christians will always lie and say believing “Jesus died for your sins” alone will save you, but that is not the case but lie. After believing Jesus died for your sins, you need to truly or sincerely repent as in Islam and the death of Jesus on the cross alone cannot save mankind. SINCERE OR TRULY REPENTANCE IS THE KEY to heaven and not some ones blood and Islam wins and Christianity loss big time for the BLOOD OF JESUS ALONE cannot save human beings and Ken Temple, a leading Christian Evangelist agrees.
You have not gone to heaven and came back with some pictures on your cellphone swimming with angels in paradise, so do not splash me with another lies that Christians are guaranteed heaven by the death of Jesus Christ.
Every religion believes they are guaranteed heaven and it is a “believe” and not reality in that you have gone to heaven and back, so stop “Christian are guaranteed heaven” in a dialog. It is childish, Muslims are guaranteed heaven too, and so what?
Will either a Christian or a Muslim God forgive someone who raped a 5 year old girl and kill her mother and Father and stole their money without sincerely or truly repentant? because he is a Muslim or a Christian? I do not think without sincerely or truly repentance from either religion, this man will go scot free. So the blood business is a lie.
Intellect,
Faith or “believing in Christ” is not just mental assent to facts or statements. the bible always includes repentance with faith and in faith there is no true faith in Christ without repentance – Mark 1:15 – Isa Al Masih said, “Repent and believe”.
Acts 26:20 – performing deeds appropriate to repentance
bring forth fruit in keeping with repentance
Luke 3:8 and Matthew 3:8 – same thing
There has to be a change on the inside, the Holy Spirit must cause a person to be born again from above – it is not something you can do by your own efforts or works. God has to open your heart and cause the change on the inside. Acts 16:14 (The Lord opened Lydia’s heart to respond to things that Paul was preaching); 2 Timothy 2:24-26 – “If perhaps God may grant repentance”
Islam has mis-understood what Christianity teaches because there is so much nominalism (Christians by culture and name only; not really true believers) and so much immorality in the west. (nakedness, adultery, pornography, abortion, homosexuality, greed, materialism)
Paul Bilal Williams wrote: Ken I see absolutely no evidence that ‘Mathew’ wrote the gospel attributed to him.
The early church testified that it was Matthew the tax-collector and disciple of Jesus. (Papias, Ireneaus, Tertullian, Cyprian, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Eusibius, Athanasius, Augustine, Jerome, etc.)
Because you turned away from Christ / Al Masih and your heart is now hardened and you are blind. You have been decieved by liberal scholarship and Islam.
Of course, according to Biblical theology, you were never a true Christian, for a true Christian does not turn away from Christ as you have. You had some kind of emotional experience; but you turned your back on the real Jesus and you have trampled upon the truths and grace that you learned about in an Evangelical church there in England.
This is not an insult to your spiritual experience, but something you should agree with (that you were never a true Christian), because if you believe that Islam is true, then there is no such thing or reality as the Holy Spirit or being born again, since Islam denies the Trinity and denies that there is a third person of the God-head / Trinity called the Holy Spirit. And since there is no Holy Spirit in Islam, then you were not born again by the Spirit of God.
You had some kind of emotional and psychological experience, but it was not a true conversion in the heart.
Ken, I said I was not aware of any evidence that ‘Matthew’ wrote the gospel attributed to him. In reply you listed a number of 2-5th century Christians who thought Matthew did write it. How is this evidence that Matthew the disciple of Jesus did in fact write the gospel? The individuals you cite might have been following hearsay. I am not aware they had met Matthew who had told them he wrote it.
From what you said believing in the death of Christ alone cannot save you unless you truly repent and trust in Christ who is your God, is it not the same as Muslims always preach? and say believe in One and Only God of Abraham, who is alone and sincerely repent from your sins?
It is not the same thing because the object of the repentance and faith is different. You are believing in the Allah of Islam, and repenting and doing good works thinking that your heart and will is sincere and then striving to follow the way of Allah of Islam and Sharia, etc.
the repentance and faith of the Bible / Christianity is an internal change through the Holy Spirit who changes and works in our hearts to grow spiritually and do good works as a result of true faith and repentance.
You are not “born-again” in Islam and you have no Holy Spirit power on the inside. You are slaves of Islam to just perform the dry rituals and external laws. Big difference.
Christianity is a religion of the heart that recognizes the heart is corrupt and deceitful (Genesis 6:5, Jeremiah 17:9-10; Mark 7:20-23; Romans 3:9-23 – no one is good until and unless Christ changes them on the inside); whereas Islam is a religion of external laws (Sharia) and rituals and does not care much about the evil heart motives and secret sins. Tasawuf or Sufism was created later as a system to overcome the legalistic and dry ritualistic nature of Islam. There are a few verses about internal sins, but it is not an emphasis in Islam. Sharia and external ritual and law and punishments is the emphasis of Islam.
“might have been following hearsay” – anyone can make claims of skepticism and “might” – there is nothing that refutes the testimony of the early church, so, on that point, they are innocent until proven guilty.
Ken we are not in a court room, no one is on trial, ‘innocence’ and ‘guilt’ are not appropriate questions for the issue at hand which is to do with what evidence there is, if any, that Matthew the disciple of Jesus did in fact write the gospel. This is a purely historical question.
I found the article where Abdal Hakim Murad admits Sufism / Tasawwuf was not in original Islam –
“At this point, many hackles are raised and well-rehearsed objections voiced. It is vital to understand that mainstream Sufism is not, and never has been, a doctrinal system, or a school of thought – a madhhab. It is, instead, a set of insights and practices which operate within the various Islamic madhhabs; in other words, it is not a madhhab, it is an ilm. And like most of the other Islamic ulum, it was not known by name, or in its later developed form, in the age of the Prophet (upon him be blessings and peace) or his Companions.” Abdal Hakim Murad (Timothy Winter)
the article is called “Islamic Spirituality: the forgotten Revolution” – Paul Williams had it on his old blog, and we had a good discussion, as I recall.
Winter of course goes on to call it a legitimate development based on some Islamic texts, but the confession that the system was not there as a system in the age of the prophet is very telling and interesting.
you gleefully claim to have found “the article where Abdal Hakim Murad admits Sufism / Tasawwuf was not in original Islam”, and furthermore you speak of Winter’s alleged “confession that the system was not there as a system in the age of the prophet is very telling and interesting.”
However the quote you provide does not back up your claims.
In it Winter clearly states:
i) sufism has never been a “doctrinal system” – not now, not ever.
ii) sufism is ‘a set of insights and practices which operate within the various Islamic schools’.
So your insinuation that Sufism is something quite new and unheard of in the Prophet’s time because a doctrinal system did not exist is quite misplaced.
Hey Paul,
You are the one who follows liberal theology and it is they and you who deem the NT text as guilty, meaning not inspired or God-breathed and judging as having no historical basis for Matthew being the author. You follow liberal pre-suppositions for the NT, but do not hold the same standards for the Qur’an.
What you quoted from Winter is even more negative against Sufism as somehow something connected with earliest Islam during Muhammad’s time. I appreciate it as an elm / ilm علم or science or system of purifying the heart. (it sounds more like the Christian system of fighting sin in the inner person. Maybe they got it from the desert monks – yes, it would seem. “mortification”, “spiritual disciplines”, putting to death the old self, the inner sinful thoughts and deeds – Galatians 5:16-26; Colossians 3:5-16; Romans chapter 6, 7, and 8, etc.
The truth is that Islam had to invent something like that, to keep it becoming a totally dry and legalistic and a brutal system, such as Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan and the current IS in Syria. (though they are different in some aspects from each other)
I am grateful that most Muslims today follow some kind of level of Sufism and seek to fight against their inner desires and nafs amare نفس اماره . But remember, that Hadith that is the one that every one quotes in the west about the Jihad against the sinful self is not in the best and most Sahih collections. A Sunni Scholar has written that it (the Jihad against the internal Nafs) is in the “History of Baghdad” and is a weak haddith. (not in any of the 6 Sahih Sunni collections)
I note the fact you consistently delight in spiritual and religious one-upmanship, a childish game of ‘my religion is better than yours’. Whatever floats your boat Ken.
Your bizarre view that I ‘deem the NT text as guilty‘ is laughable and not worthy of a serious reply.
Ken is there something wrong with your eyesight? Winter clearly states that:
“Sufism is not, and never has been, a doctrinal system, or a school of thought”
So Ken, I’m still waiting for the historical evidence that Jesus’ disciple Matthew is the author of ‘the gospel according to Matthew’ in the NT. I am happy to accept that he wrote it if there is good evidence..
It is not the same thing because the object of the repentance and faith is different. You are believing in the Allah of Islam, and repenting and doing good works thinking that your heart and will is sincere and then striving to follow the way of Allah of Islam and Sharia, etc.
the repentance and faith of the Bible / Christianity is an internal change through the Holy Spirit who changes and works in our hearts to grow spiritually and do good works as a result of true faith and repentance.
You are not “born-again” in Islam and you have no Holy Spirit power on the inside. You are slaves of Islam to just perform the dry rituals and external laws. Big difference.
Christianity is a religion of the heart that recognizes the heart is corrupt and deceitful (Genesis 6:5, Jeremiah 17:9-10; Mark 7:20-23; Romans 3:9-23 – no one is good until and unless Christ changes them on the inside); whereas Islam is a religion of external laws (Sharia) and rituals and does not care much about the evil heart motives and secret sins. Tasawuf or Sufism was created later as a system to overcome the legalistic and dry ritualistic nature of Islam. There are a few verses about internal sins, but it is not an emphasis in Islam. Sharia and external ritual and law and punishments is the emphasis of Islam.
I say;
God help those who help themselves, and do not think that Islamic rituals are dry. They are not dry at all but to help us to come closer to God and to achieve the spirituality the purification of our heart. Why do you think Muslims pray 5 times a day? Of course to be always closer to God and strive to get the spirituality in the heart. Stopping everything to pray alone is the purification of the heart because your heart is telling you stop everything and get closer to you God and you did that. You can decide not to do, but you decide to do and that alone is a good purification of the heart than waiting for Holy Spirit to come who was not there to help Moses, Abraham, Joseph and the rest.
It is like students preparing for exams and the one who is serious and always research and read to pass the exam always do better than the one who sits and waiting the teacher to open his brain and put all the books inside. Holy Spirit will be happy with those who are serious to become closer to God by remembering him and worshiping him anytime and thinking about Him and as such the Holy Spirit will be happy with Muslims than Christians who do not have are not serious than Muslims when it comes to seeking spirituality of God and the purification of heart.
Islamic law, just like Jewish law is there to guide society and human beings to do the right thing unlike Trinitarians who have no guidance and that is why the west is rotten with gay marriage, incest, armed robbery, illegal sex, just to name a few.
This Holy Spirit business is not there for Abraham, Ishmail, Moses, Jacob and all the prophets of God, but these noble prophets of God and their followers are closer to God and have their heart and spirit purified for the One, Only and Alone God of Abraham without any Holy Spirit.
So the Holy Spirit business is not true at all.
When a Muslims stops everything that he is doing to attend to pray for the God of Abraham, what do you think his heart is telling him? He is constantly training the heart to be purified and to remember God. It is him strive and training to keep remembering and getting closer to God to attain that spirituality and purification of the heart.
We are aware of the internal purification of the heart, spirituality etc. and that is what the rituals are there for, to guide us and to help us achieve those. The rituals themselves are internal and not external alone. Wash and purify your body to help get your heart and spirit working. Before doing all those, is it not your heart that tells you do? Pray(Salat), Zakat, Hajj, Fasting etc. You will be hungry and thirsty and alone in your house, but your heart is telling you that, the Almighty is watching you any where you are and you will not eat or drink till the time comes. Is this not spirituality and purification of the heart? than to sit there lazy waiting for the Holy Spirit to come? Holy Spirit will not be happy with Christians and does not like lazy people and God help those who help themselves and He(God) knows how Muslims are striving to get the spirituality and the purification of the heart than Christians who just sit there not striving for spirituality but calling Muslims names.
@ Ken Temple “All the NT / Injeel is : God-breathed, inerrant, infallible. 2 Tim. 3:16”
2 Timothy is pseudepigraphic letter, a forgery, a lie.
2 Tim. 3:16 DOES NOT refer to the NT, but to the OT
It refers to the Septuagint version, which you reject as scripture.
Why doesn’t the holy spirit or your personal “Jesus” prevent you from such megafails? If you spread such mis-information willingly, it could be interpreted as sinning.
@ Ken Temple “We have God the Holy Spirit living inside of us, who helps us and gives us power over temptation and sin and motivates us (willing and makes us willing) and works so that we are able to do good works.”
Where in the Bible does it say the holy spirit will turn you into a broken record pestering people with superstitious nonsense?
2 Timothy is not a forgery; the apostle Paul wrote it from prison before he was executed by Nero, around 66-67 AD.
2 Tim. 3:15 is about the OT, but 3:16 expands it to “all Scripture”, meaning including the NT documents. (even those not written yet)
Since Paul called Luke and Matthew, “Scripture” in 1 Timothy 5:18, putting on par as Scripture with Deuteronomy, this shows the apostle Paul is including the NT documents, and he included his own writings also. (Galatians chapters 1-2, 1 Corinthians chapters 1-2, etc.)
1 Timothy 5:18 – “For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing,” (quoting Deuteronomy, in the Torah) and “The laborer is worthy of his wages.” (quoting Matthew and Luke)
Philippians 2:12-13 says “work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who is in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.”
John 7:37-39 – Isa Al Masih said,
37 Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink.
38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’”
39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to those who believe in Him.
“Sufism is not, and never has been, a doctrinal system, or a school of thought”
Whatever you call it, it shows that it did not exist at the time of Muhammad, and that is why some Muslims call it a “Bida'” / Bid’at بدعه / بدعت (heresy, innovation)
Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to those who believe in Him. All the NT teaches this. The Spirit Himself testifies that we are children of God. (see Romans 8:12-17; Galatians 4:6)
“Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him” (1 John 3:6), “No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God” (1 John 3:9 NIV), “We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin, the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one does not touch him” (1 John 5:18 NIV).
Obviously, then, you have never been born of God since you continue to sin. Until you can demonstrate sinless perfection, abiding in Christ remains illusory for you old chap.
Burhanuddin1 –
Yes, I recomment the whole book of 1 John also.
ok, before interpreting 1 John 3:6-9, since you recommend the whole book of 1 John, are you willing to say that the whole book of 1 John is written by one author and he is not contradicting himself?
Ken, when will you understand? I am NOT interested at all in your ludicrous superstitious “interpretations”. No offence intended, but I think you are genuinely mad.
Then that shows that your citation of 1 John 3:6-9 was insincere; because now you admit you are not interested in following your thought out to its logical conclusions in rational thought with me.
In the context of the book of 1 John, chapter 1:5-2:2, the meaning that you impute to 3:6-9 does not make sense.
1:9 – if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1:8 – if we say we don’t have sin, we lie and the truth is not in us. and we decieve ourselves. (with verse 10)
2:1 – “I write these things to you in order that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate/intercessor with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous one.
so, 1 John 3:6-9 has to mean that a born again Christian does not continuously and deliberately practice sin, without confession, repentance, and sorrow over their own sins.
Christians are not perfect, but we are growing spiritually, and becoming more and more holy in a process called sanctification, being conformed to the image of Christ. (Romans 8:29; 2 Cor. 3:16-18; 4:16-18; 1 Peter 1:13-16; Colossians 3, Ephesians 4; Galatians 5, etc.)
Blogging Theology 
This isn’t entirely correct.
Muslims, even with their faith, are required to repent (unless they were unaware of doing wrong) — otherwise they will not be forgiven (cf. Q4:17-4:18).
LikeLike
Zozo is correct –
Qur’an Surah 41:30 (that Shabir Ally referred to)
Sahih International
Indeed, those who have said, “Our Lord is Allah ” and then remained on a right course – the angels will descend upon them, [saying], “Do not fear and do not grieve but receive good tidings of Paradise, which you were promised.
“remaining on the right course” is the key. Zozo Al Maslawi is right – most Muslims go to a kind of purgatory or hell for a while and “burn off” their bad deeds and eventually come out to paradise. Bassam Zawadi admitted this in his debate with Thabiti Anyabwile (they did two debates – you can google and find them on the web).
the only assurance for Muslims is dying in Jihad, which most Muslims scholars teach and agree. Bassam Zawadi admitted that the Islamic view is closer to the Roman Catholic view than Protestant Reformed view. Islam has a kind of distinction between big sins and little sins, like the Roman Catholic mortal sins and venial sins. Islam does not call the place they go in between “purgatory”, but hell; but Muslims eventually come out after many years of suffering, depending on how good they were.
I have met many Muslims say to me , “I am not a good Muslim, I don’t pray five times a day”, etc. “I will probably go to the hell-fire for 200 years; and then come out and go to paradise because I am a Muslim” (the knowledge of the one God, as Shabir talked about); “. . . but you, Mr. Ken, you will never come out because you say Jesus is the Son of God and God in the flesh”, etc.
Islam does not even define going to paradise/heaven as “salvation from sin”; rather it is earning one’s way to paradise by faith plus good works.
The Biblical Christian understanding is being saved from our sins and sinfulness in our hearts (Matthew 1:21-23; Mark 7:20-23; 1 Cor. 15:3-4- Christ died for our sins), then the result of having our sins dealt with by Christ the Savior then we get eternal life/heaven, but we cannot earn that.
Islam has no way to deal with the sinful attitudes in the heart and mind. (no cross, no atonement, no power of the Holy Spirit) All you have is external rituals and laws and punishments and rules; and your own efforts to try and fight your internal lusts and anger, pride, greed, envy, and evil thoughts. The emphasis in Islam is external ritual and law. That is why Sufism / Tasawwuf started; but it came about after Muhammad died.
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Shabir Ally’s comment on Philippians 2:12-13 – “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” – this is true, but it does not mean what Shabir said. It does teach us humility, but it is “work out” not “work for”. Islam is “work for” = earn it.
Shabir left out the rest of the context in verse 13, “. . . work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who is in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure.”
We have God the Holy Spirit living inside of us, who helps us and gives us power over temptation and sin and motivates us (willing and makes us willing) and works so that we are able to do good works. All glory goes to God.
the idea is “work out what God has worked inside of you” – apply, be diligent, put forth effort, do right, in holiness and godly living that proves you are truly justified (Romans 5:1; Galatians 2:16) If you have no good works or changed life, you are not a true believer. Just saying “I am a Christian” does not make one a Christian. One must be born again by the Holy Spirit of God. (John 3:1-21) Good works are the result of true justification/ salvation/ true faith.
the other verse that Shabir mentioned – Matthew 7:21-23 – Jesus says “I never knew you, depart from Me, you evil doers” – means that people can claim to be believers, go to church, even claim to do miracles or do miracles ( as Judas did), but they were NEVER true believers on the inside in their hearts. Many are like that today, especially in western culture. I think the many heretical TV evangelists who claim to do miracles ( Like Benny Hinn) are like this, because their greed and opulent livestyle shows they are not true believers; they are just using Christianity to manipulate people to give money.
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Ken you erroneously say of Muslims: ‘All you have is external rituals and laws and punishments and rules’
Not so. We have the love and mercy of God, which the quran repeatedly emphasises.
For the cures for a sinful heart by a leading Islamic scholar read:
Purification of the Heart: Signs, Symptoms and Cures of the Spiritual Diseases of the Heart
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Purification-Heart-Symptoms-Spiritual-Diseases-ebook/dp/B00KOYFQ2E/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1432472079&sr=1-2
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you say, without citing any evidence, that ‘the only assurance for Muslims is dying in Jihad, which most Muslims scholars teach and agree’.
Not so. The Quran guarantees all Muslims paradise! See 9:72. And God never breaks his promises – see 3:9.
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Wait a moment Ken and other Christians who make the argument of their religion ‘guaranteeing’ them salvation. I had a brief discussion with a famous Christian evangelist lately and he said the same thing.
The point that’s lost here is, just because a faith claims to guarantee you salvation if you believe in it (Trinitarian Christianity in this case) it does NOT make it true. How is that an opening gambit in a conversation with anybody of another faith?
Surely, in this day and age, one would expect the opening gambit to be more in tune with coming to the truth about God and what he wants of us…rather than an emotional ‘promise’ of salvation, After all, somebody could set a faith up tomorrow and promise people salvation if they believed in it. Would you be swayed by a promise? Would you not want to dscuss whether the ‘promise’ is true or not?
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Wait a minute, did Paul just say “We have the love and mercy of God, which the quran repeatedly emphasises.”
You can have that selfish love; the type which is only reciprocated if you bow before your Lord (Q3:31-32). And mercy (Q29:23)? You can keep Islam’s concept of mercy to yourself, as well.
” The Quran guarantees all Muslims paradise! See 9:72.”
You what, mate? Q4:18…
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@Ken, I would also ask you to reflect on this passage in your Bible:
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
That quote is attributed to Jesus by somebody who was called ‘Matthew’. Notice it’s a reference to deeds (i.e. doing the Will of God). Also recognise that Muslims are called Muslims as it refers to those who do the Will of God. An interesting point to note here 🙂
And look at the rest of the passage. Do you notice these people are alleged believers in Jesus (p) yet according to the quote these people will be MANY and they will be rejected by Jesus:
22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Just some very important points for Trinitarian Christians to reflect upon.
Peace
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Paul – Qur’an Surah 9:72 is in the context of Jihad and Qatal (fighting the unbelievers – verses 1-5, 14, 29-31) – verse 73, etc. the whole Surah of Surah 9 or Toubeh التوبه or “the Immunity” – براء ه (see the word in verse 1)
verses 88-89 defines that the true believers of Muslims will fight with their wealth and their lives and then they will have the gardens. It seems to me that the context and surrounding verses define what being a true believer really is in verse 72.
Surah 4:18 that Zozo referenced shows that you are not telling the whole story, along with the surrounding context of verse 72.
Also, verse 111 of the same surah ( 9 Al Toubeh التوبه ) shows that true believers are involved in Jihad and qatal – they are “killed and kill”
“Indeed, Allah has purchased from the believers their lives and their properties [in exchange] for that they will have Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah , so they kill and are killed. [It is] a true promise [binding] upon Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur’an. And who is truer to his covenant than Allah ? So rejoice in your transaction which you have contracted. And it is that which is the great attainment.” Surah 9:111 Sahih International translation.
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Yahya – yeah, I have reflected on this passage a lot in the last 38 years. I think this passage includes all the greedy “name it claim it” prosperity teachers (false prophets) like Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar, Joel Osteen, etc.
Matthew 7:15-23
15 Beware of the false prophets; who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’
We believe in submission to God’s will also, we just don’t go by the name “Muslim” (submitter, one who surrenders’) . A Muslim is “one who submits / surrenders”
To receive Isa Al Masih as Lord and Savior means that you have to submit everything to Him as Lord (Rabb رب / Yahweh / Adonai) (Romans 10:9-10; Luke 14)
Part of that submission is faith and submission to the doctrine of the Trinity – Matthew 28:19 – to be baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
All those nominal Christians and the greedy prosperity teachers who claim to do miracles are going to be surprised on judgement day; yes.
We are justified by faith alone in Christ, but true faith in Christ does not say along, it always results in good works, change, fruit, and deeper levels of repentance and deeper levels of spritiual hunger and growth.
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oops – should have been
true faith does not stay alone . . .
We are justified by faith alone in Christ, but true faith in Christ does not stay alone, it always results in good works, change, fruit, and deeper levels of repentance and deeper levels of spritiual hunger and growth.
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Matthew, the disciple of Jesus and eyewitness of His ministry and resurrection, wrote the gospel according to Matthew. And those are Jesus’ words and they are inerrant and infallible. All the NT / Injeel is : God-breathed, inerrant, infallible. 2 Tim. 3:16
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Ken I see absolutely no evidence that ‘Mathew’ wrote the gospel attributed to him.
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The point that’s lost here is, just because a faith claims to guarantee you salvation if you believe in it (Trinitarian Christianity in this case) it does NOT make it true. How is that an opening gambit in a conversation with anybody of another faith?
True, but that was the subject of Paul’s post and Shabir Ally’s talk – does Islam guarantee salvation? I don’t think it does; and it is also not true.
Christianity does guarantee salvation from sin, if one truly repents and trusts in Christ, i.e., is born again (John 1:12; John 3:1-21; John 5:24; Romans 10:9-10)
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
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Ken Temple
You said;
Christianity does guarantee salvation from sin, if one truly repents and trusts in Christ, i.e., is born again (John 1:12; John 3:1-21; John 5:24; Romans 10:9-10)
I say;
If a Christian must truly repents before guaranteeing salvation by Jesus, then the death of Jesus becomes useless, because the blood of Jesus alone did not save the Christian. So, it is a big lie for the Christians to be preaching that believing “Jesus died for your sins” alone will save you. It is not true as Ken Temple has been admitting here for a very long time.
According to the above from Ken’s own mouth, “Christianity does guarantee salvation from sin, if one truly repents and trusts in Christ, i.e., is born again”. Notice the “IF ONE TRULY REPENTS AND TRUST IN CHRIST”. Then why tell lies by Christians that when evangelizing that “If you believe Jesus died for your sins, then you are saved”?
From what you said believing in the death of Christ alone cannot save you unless you truly repent and trust in Christ who is your God, is it not the same as Muslims always preach? and say believe in One and Only God of Abraham, who is alone and sincerely repent from your sins?
The only difference is that the Muslims will not tell lies and say, believing alone without sincere repentance will save anyone but Christians will always lie and say believing “Jesus died for your sins” alone will save you, but that is not the case but lie. After believing Jesus died for your sins, you need to truly or sincerely repent as in Islam and the death of Jesus on the cross alone cannot save mankind. SINCERE OR TRULY REPENTANCE IS THE KEY to heaven and not some ones blood and Islam wins and Christianity loss big time for the BLOOD OF JESUS ALONE cannot save human beings and Ken Temple, a leading Christian Evangelist agrees.
You have not gone to heaven and came back with some pictures on your cellphone swimming with angels in paradise, so do not splash me with another lies that Christians are guaranteed heaven by the death of Jesus Christ.
Every religion believes they are guaranteed heaven and it is a “believe” and not reality in that you have gone to heaven and back, so stop “Christian are guaranteed heaven” in a dialog. It is childish, Muslims are guaranteed heaven too, and so what?
Will either a Christian or a Muslim God forgive someone who raped a 5 year old girl and kill her mother and Father and stole their money without sincerely or truly repentant? because he is a Muslim or a Christian? I do not think without sincerely or truly repentance from either religion, this man will go scot free. So the blood business is a lie.
Thanks
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Intellect,
Faith or “believing in Christ” is not just mental assent to facts or statements. the bible always includes repentance with faith and in faith there is no true faith in Christ without repentance – Mark 1:15 – Isa Al Masih said, “Repent and believe”.
Acts 26:20 – performing deeds appropriate to repentance
bring forth fruit in keeping with repentance
Luke 3:8 and Matthew 3:8 – same thing
There has to be a change on the inside, the Holy Spirit must cause a person to be born again from above – it is not something you can do by your own efforts or works. God has to open your heart and cause the change on the inside. Acts 16:14 (The Lord opened Lydia’s heart to respond to things that Paul was preaching); 2 Timothy 2:24-26 – “If perhaps God may grant repentance”
Islam has mis-understood what Christianity teaches because there is so much nominalism (Christians by culture and name only; not really true believers) and so much immorality in the west. (nakedness, adultery, pornography, abortion, homosexuality, greed, materialism)
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Paul Bilal Williams wrote:
Ken I see absolutely no evidence that ‘Mathew’ wrote the gospel attributed to him.
The early church testified that it was Matthew the tax-collector and disciple of Jesus. (Papias, Ireneaus, Tertullian, Cyprian, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Eusibius, Athanasius, Augustine, Jerome, etc.)
Because you turned away from Christ / Al Masih and your heart is now hardened and you are blind. You have been decieved by liberal scholarship and Islam.
Of course, according to Biblical theology, you were never a true Christian, for a true Christian does not turn away from Christ as you have. You had some kind of emotional experience; but you turned your back on the real Jesus and you have trampled upon the truths and grace that you learned about in an Evangelical church there in England.
This is not an insult to your spiritual experience, but something you should agree with (that you were never a true Christian), because if you believe that Islam is true, then there is no such thing or reality as the Holy Spirit or being born again, since Islam denies the Trinity and denies that there is a third person of the God-head / Trinity called the Holy Spirit. And since there is no Holy Spirit in Islam, then you were not born again by the Spirit of God.
You had some kind of emotional and psychological experience, but it was not a true conversion in the heart.
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Ken, I said I was not aware of any evidence that ‘Matthew’ wrote the gospel attributed to him. In reply you listed a number of 2-5th century Christians who thought Matthew did write it. How is this evidence that Matthew the disciple of Jesus did in fact write the gospel? The individuals you cite might have been following hearsay. I am not aware they had met Matthew who had told them he wrote it.
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From what you said believing in the death of Christ alone cannot save you unless you truly repent and trust in Christ who is your God, is it not the same as Muslims always preach? and say believe in One and Only God of Abraham, who is alone and sincerely repent from your sins?
It is not the same thing because the object of the repentance and faith is different. You are believing in the Allah of Islam, and repenting and doing good works thinking that your heart and will is sincere and then striving to follow the way of Allah of Islam and Sharia, etc.
the repentance and faith of the Bible / Christianity is an internal change through the Holy Spirit who changes and works in our hearts to grow spiritually and do good works as a result of true faith and repentance.
You are not “born-again” in Islam and you have no Holy Spirit power on the inside. You are slaves of Islam to just perform the dry rituals and external laws. Big difference.
Christianity is a religion of the heart that recognizes the heart is corrupt and deceitful (Genesis 6:5, Jeremiah 17:9-10; Mark 7:20-23; Romans 3:9-23 – no one is good until and unless Christ changes them on the inside); whereas Islam is a religion of external laws (Sharia) and rituals and does not care much about the evil heart motives and secret sins. Tasawuf or Sufism was created later as a system to overcome the legalistic and dry ritualistic nature of Islam. There are a few verses about internal sins, but it is not an emphasis in Islam. Sharia and external ritual and law and punishments is the emphasis of Islam.
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“might have been following hearsay” – anyone can make claims of skepticism and “might” – there is nothing that refutes the testimony of the early church, so, on that point, they are innocent until proven guilty.
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Ken we are not in a court room, no one is on trial, ‘innocence’ and ‘guilt’ are not appropriate questions for the issue at hand which is to do with what evidence there is, if any, that Matthew the disciple of Jesus did in fact write the gospel. This is a purely historical question.
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I found the article where Abdal Hakim Murad admits Sufism / Tasawwuf was not in original Islam –
“At this point, many hackles are raised and well-rehearsed objections voiced. It is vital to understand that mainstream Sufism is not, and never has been, a doctrinal system, or a school of thought – a madhhab. It is, instead, a set of insights and practices which operate within the various Islamic madhhabs; in other words, it is not a madhhab, it is an ilm. And like most of the other Islamic ulum, it was not known by name, or in its later developed form, in the age of the Prophet (upon him be blessings and peace) or his Companions.” Abdal Hakim Murad (Timothy Winter)
the article is called “Islamic Spirituality: the forgotten Revolution” – Paul Williams had it on his old blog, and we had a good discussion, as I recall.
Winter of course goes on to call it a legitimate development based on some Islamic texts, but the confession that the system was not there as a system in the age of the prophet is very telling and interesting.
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Ken
you gleefully claim to have found “the article where Abdal Hakim Murad admits Sufism / Tasawwuf was not in original Islam”, and furthermore you speak of Winter’s alleged “confession that the system was not there as a system in the age of the prophet is very telling and interesting.”
However the quote you provide does not back up your claims.
In it Winter clearly states:
i) sufism has never been a “doctrinal system” – not now, not ever.
ii) sufism is ‘a set of insights and practices which operate within the various Islamic schools’.
So your insinuation that Sufism is something quite new and unheard of in the Prophet’s time because a doctrinal system did not exist is quite misplaced.
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Hey Paul,
You are the one who follows liberal theology and it is they and you who deem the NT text as guilty, meaning not inspired or God-breathed and judging as having no historical basis for Matthew being the author. You follow liberal pre-suppositions for the NT, but do not hold the same standards for the Qur’an.
What you quoted from Winter is even more negative against Sufism as somehow something connected with earliest Islam during Muhammad’s time. I appreciate it as an elm / ilm علم or science or system of purifying the heart. (it sounds more like the Christian system of fighting sin in the inner person. Maybe they got it from the desert monks – yes, it would seem. “mortification”, “spiritual disciplines”, putting to death the old self, the inner sinful thoughts and deeds – Galatians 5:16-26; Colossians 3:5-16; Romans chapter 6, 7, and 8, etc.
The truth is that Islam had to invent something like that, to keep it becoming a totally dry and legalistic and a brutal system, such as Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan and the current IS in Syria. (though they are different in some aspects from each other)
I am grateful that most Muslims today follow some kind of level of Sufism and seek to fight against their inner desires and nafs amare نفس اماره . But remember, that Hadith that is the one that every one quotes in the west about the Jihad against the sinful self is not in the best and most Sahih collections. A Sunni Scholar has written that it (the Jihad against the internal Nafs) is in the “History of Baghdad” and is a weak haddith. (not in any of the 6 Sahih Sunni collections)
http://sunnah.org/wp/2011/01/01/documentation-of-the-hadith-of-jihad-al-akbar-greater-jihad/
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I note the fact you consistently delight in spiritual and religious one-upmanship, a childish game of ‘my religion is better than yours’. Whatever floats your boat Ken.
Your bizarre view that I ‘deem the NT text as guilty‘ is laughable and not worthy of a serious reply.
Ken is there something wrong with your eyesight? Winter clearly states that:
“Sufism is not, and never has been, a doctrinal system, or a school of thought”
yet you keep referring to sufism as a “system”!
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So Ken, I’m still waiting for the historical evidence that Jesus’ disciple Matthew is the author of ‘the gospel according to Matthew’ in the NT. I am happy to accept that he wrote it if there is good evidence..
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Ken Temple
You said;
It is not the same thing because the object of the repentance and faith is different. You are believing in the Allah of Islam, and repenting and doing good works thinking that your heart and will is sincere and then striving to follow the way of Allah of Islam and Sharia, etc.
the repentance and faith of the Bible / Christianity is an internal change through the Holy Spirit who changes and works in our hearts to grow spiritually and do good works as a result of true faith and repentance.
You are not “born-again” in Islam and you have no Holy Spirit power on the inside. You are slaves of Islam to just perform the dry rituals and external laws. Big difference.
Christianity is a religion of the heart that recognizes the heart is corrupt and deceitful (Genesis 6:5, Jeremiah 17:9-10; Mark 7:20-23; Romans 3:9-23 – no one is good until and unless Christ changes them on the inside); whereas Islam is a religion of external laws (Sharia) and rituals and does not care much about the evil heart motives and secret sins. Tasawuf or Sufism was created later as a system to overcome the legalistic and dry ritualistic nature of Islam. There are a few verses about internal sins, but it is not an emphasis in Islam. Sharia and external ritual and law and punishments is the emphasis of Islam.
I say;
God help those who help themselves, and do not think that Islamic rituals are dry. They are not dry at all but to help us to come closer to God and to achieve the spirituality the purification of our heart. Why do you think Muslims pray 5 times a day? Of course to be always closer to God and strive to get the spirituality in the heart. Stopping everything to pray alone is the purification of the heart because your heart is telling you stop everything and get closer to you God and you did that. You can decide not to do, but you decide to do and that alone is a good purification of the heart than waiting for Holy Spirit to come who was not there to help Moses, Abraham, Joseph and the rest.
It is like students preparing for exams and the one who is serious and always research and read to pass the exam always do better than the one who sits and waiting the teacher to open his brain and put all the books inside. Holy Spirit will be happy with those who are serious to become closer to God by remembering him and worshiping him anytime and thinking about Him and as such the Holy Spirit will be happy with Muslims than Christians who do not have are not serious than Muslims when it comes to seeking spirituality of God and the purification of heart.
Islamic law, just like Jewish law is there to guide society and human beings to do the right thing unlike Trinitarians who have no guidance and that is why the west is rotten with gay marriage, incest, armed robbery, illegal sex, just to name a few.
This Holy Spirit business is not there for Abraham, Ishmail, Moses, Jacob and all the prophets of God, but these noble prophets of God and their followers are closer to God and have their heart and spirit purified for the One, Only and Alone God of Abraham without any Holy Spirit.
So the Holy Spirit business is not true at all.
When a Muslims stops everything that he is doing to attend to pray for the God of Abraham, what do you think his heart is telling him? He is constantly training the heart to be purified and to remember God. It is him strive and training to keep remembering and getting closer to God to attain that spirituality and purification of the heart.
We are aware of the internal purification of the heart, spirituality etc. and that is what the rituals are there for, to guide us and to help us achieve those. The rituals themselves are internal and not external alone. Wash and purify your body to help get your heart and spirit working. Before doing all those, is it not your heart that tells you do? Pray(Salat), Zakat, Hajj, Fasting etc. You will be hungry and thirsty and alone in your house, but your heart is telling you that, the Almighty is watching you any where you are and you will not eat or drink till the time comes. Is this not spirituality and purification of the heart? than to sit there lazy waiting for the Holy Spirit to come? Holy Spirit will not be happy with Christians and does not like lazy people and God help those who help themselves and He(God) knows how Muslims are striving to get the spirituality and the purification of the heart than Christians who just sit there not striving for spirituality but calling Muslims names.
Thanks
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@ Ken Temple “All the NT / Injeel is : God-breathed, inerrant, infallible. 2 Tim. 3:16”
2 Timothy is pseudepigraphic letter, a forgery, a lie.
2 Tim. 3:16 DOES NOT refer to the NT, but to the OT
It refers to the Septuagint version, which you reject as scripture.
Why doesn’t the holy spirit or your personal “Jesus” prevent you from such megafails? If you spread such mis-information willingly, it could be interpreted as sinning.
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@ Ken Temple “We have God the Holy Spirit living inside of us, who helps us and gives us power over temptation and sin and motivates us (willing and makes us willing) and works so that we are able to do good works.”
Where in the Bible does it say the holy spirit will turn you into a broken record pestering people with superstitious nonsense?
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2 Timothy is not a forgery; the apostle Paul wrote it from prison before he was executed by Nero, around 66-67 AD.
2 Tim. 3:15 is about the OT, but 3:16 expands it to “all Scripture”, meaning including the NT documents. (even those not written yet)
Since Paul called Luke and Matthew, “Scripture” in 1 Timothy 5:18, putting on par as Scripture with Deuteronomy, this shows the apostle Paul is including the NT documents, and he included his own writings also. (Galatians chapters 1-2, 1 Corinthians chapters 1-2, etc.)
1 Timothy 5:18 – “For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing,” (quoting Deuteronomy, in the Torah) and “The laborer is worthy of his wages.” (quoting Matthew and Luke)
Philippians 2:12-13 says “work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who is in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.”
John 7:37-39 – Isa Al Masih said,
37 Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink.
38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’”
39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to those who believe in Him.
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Winter clearly states that:
“Sufism is not, and never has been, a doctrinal system, or a school of thought”
Whatever you call it, it shows that it did not exist at the time of Muhammad, and that is why some Muslims call it a “Bida'” / Bid’at بدعه / بدعت (heresy, innovation)
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Ken Temple, you certainly do not have a “holy spirit”, God does not live in you, you are unable to abide in Christ.
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Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to those who believe in Him. All the NT teaches this. The Spirit Himself testifies that we are children of God. (see Romans 8:12-17; Galatians 4:6)
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Good book on the subject – Baptism and Fullness, by John R. W. Stott
http://www.amazon.com/Baptism-And-Fullness-Spirit-Classics/dp/0830834028
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Ken Temple I recommend the book “1 John”
“Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him” (1 John 3:6), “No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God” (1 John 3:9 NIV), “We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin, the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one does not touch him” (1 John 5:18 NIV).
Obviously, then, you have never been born of God since you continue to sin. Until you can demonstrate sinless perfection, abiding in Christ remains illusory for you old chap.
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Burhanuddin1 –
Yes, I recomment the whole book of 1 John also.
ok, before interpreting 1 John 3:6-9, since you recommend the whole book of 1 John, are you willing to say that the whole book of 1 John is written by one author and he is not contradicting himself?
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Ken, when will you understand? I am NOT interested at all in your ludicrous superstitious “interpretations”. No offence intended, but I think you are genuinely mad.
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Then that shows that your citation of 1 John 3:6-9 was insincere; because now you admit you are not interested in following your thought out to its logical conclusions in rational thought with me.
In the context of the book of 1 John, chapter 1:5-2:2, the meaning that you impute to 3:6-9 does not make sense.
1:9 – if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1:8 – if we say we don’t have sin, we lie and the truth is not in us. and we decieve ourselves. (with verse 10)
2:1 – “I write these things to you in order that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate/intercessor with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous one.
so, 1 John 3:6-9 has to mean that a born again Christian does not continuously and deliberately practice sin, without confession, repentance, and sorrow over their own sins.
Christians are not perfect, but we are growing spiritually, and becoming more and more holy in a process called sanctification, being conformed to the image of Christ. (Romans 8:29; 2 Cor. 3:16-18; 4:16-18; 1 Peter 1:13-16; Colossians 3, Ephesians 4; Galatians 5, etc.)
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