A regular christian commenter in this blog preaches:
The problem with Islamic repentance is that it is never sincere, since you don’t believe you are sinners by nature and in the heart – you can never be truly or sincerely penitent / humble, since you think you can by your own power sincerely repent; and that repentance is over individual external actions of sin
Is there truth in this kind of thinking? Are human beings happen to be to be morally tainted?
The book of Genesis emphasises that man is a free moral agent. God says to Adam’s son Cain:
הֲל֤וֹא אִם־תֵּיטִיב֙ שְׂאֵ֔ת וְאִם֙ לֹ֣א תֵיטִ֔יבלַפֶּ֖תַח חַטָּ֣את רֹבֵ֑ץ וְאֵלֶ֙יךָ֙ תְּשׁ֣וּקָת֔וֹ וְאַתָּ֖התִּמְשָׁל־בּֽוֹ
“If you do well, you will be exalted; but if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door: its desire is for you, but you can master it!” [Gen 4:7]
There is no evidence from the Tanakh that humanity is innately sinner by nature.
Also don’t forget that in the Tanakh also God made us in His own image
וַיִּבְרָ֨א אֱלֹהִ֤ים ׀ אֶת־הָֽאָדָם֙ בְּצַלְמ֔וֹ בְּצֶ֥לֶםאֱלֹהִ֖ים בָּרָ֣א אֹת֑וֹ זָכָ֥ר וּנְקֵבָ֖ה בָּרָ֥א אֹתָֽם׃
And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.[Gen 1:27].
The word used translated as “image” is צֶ֥לֶם tselem which should be understood as having the spirit “form” from God who are able to think and reason logically , not God physical appearance. Otherwise it should use the word תֹ֖אַר to’ar (See Gen 39:6). As God has no appearance, no physicality. God is incorporeal.
So rather than believing that man is sinner by nature we should be optimistic that because man is a rational being he knows that following the good inclination is better for him than it is to tempt to sin, and because God created man to be he has a greater yearning towards the Creator than away from Him.
In the Qur’an, also the prophet Adam story reminded us that the reason why mankind does not dwell in Paradise is not that Adam was inherently disobedient but it was because Satan who tempted them.
وَقُلْنَا يَا آدَمُ اسْكُنْ أَنتَ وَزَوْجُكَ الْجَنَّةَ وَكُلَا مِنْهَا رَغَدًا حَيْثُ شِئْتُمَا وَلَا تَقْرَبَا هَٰذِهِ الشَّجَرَةَ فَتَكُونَا مِنَ الظَّالِمِينَ
فَأَزَلَّهُمَا الشَّيْطَانُ عَنْهَا فَأَخْرَجَهُمَا مِمَّا كَانَا فِيهِ ۖ وَقُلْنَا اهْبِطُوا بَعْضُكُمْ لِبَعْضٍ عَدُوٌّ ۖ وَلَكُمْ فِي الْأَرْضِ مُسْتَقَرٌّ وَمَتَاعٌ إِلَىٰ حِينٍ
And We said, “O Adam, dwell, you and your wife, in Paradise and eat therefrom in [ease and] abundance from wherever you will. But do not approach this tree, lest you be among the wrongdoers.”
But Satan caused them to slip out of it and removed them from that [condition] in which they had been. And We said, “Go down, [all of you], as enemies to one another, and you will have upon the earth a place of settlement and provision for a time.” [2:35-36]
God did not created Adam with inherent evil but rather Adam has a complete free will, and he bore the consequences of his deed. He was tempted by Satan by eating of the forbidden tree, so God dismissed him from Paradise. But God is all Merciful and he already forgave Adam’s sin as Adam repented to Him.
فَتَلَقَّىٰ آدَمُ مِن رَّبِّهِ كَلِمَاتٍ فَتَابَ عَلَيْهِ ۚ إِنَّهُ هُوَ التَّوَّابُ الرَّحِيمُ
Then Adam received from his Lord [some] words, and He accepted his repentance. Indeed, it is He who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful.
Even though we have to remember in Islamic Aqeedah, God always know the outcome of events before they take place, therefore He knew the whole scenario was going to happen. However God does not force things to happen. He grants free will to His human creatures.
God and Creation
From that going forward, the first man, Adam also understood that God punishes disobedience and that the way of Paradise has to be through submission to the will of God And he learned that God Almighty is the one to ask for forgiveness.
So the whole purpose of mankind in this world is by to approach God (al-wasilah الوسيلة), And we have been ordered in the Qur’an from time to time: to draw close to God by the various acts of obedience legislated by the God’s law (shari’ah) and to fight Satan the seducer to sin.
However, every man is born with a natural goodness that is belief in God and an in-born inclination to worship Him alone. This in-born belief and inclination is called Fitrah فطرة.
The Prophet Muhammad reported that God said:
وَإِنِّي خَلَقْتُ عِبَادِي حُنَفَاءَ كُلَّهُمْ وَإِنَّهُمْ أَتَتْهُمْ الشَّيَاطِينُ فَاجْتَالَتْهُمْ عَنْ دِينِهِمْ
“I have created all of My servants naturally inclined to being upright but it is the devils who turn them away from their piety” [Sahih Muslim 2865]
In conclusion, there is no good evidence from the scriptures that when a baby is born they are born sinners and tainted heart. Adam is the first human sinner but he was deceived as soon as he realised his wrongdoing Adam repented and the Qur’an told us he was forgiven.
Even from our own experience we must know that deep down we feel guilty when we do things that are wrong. People do not feel enjoyed when hurting some other people. We are born with sincerely penitent / humble heart. That is why it is said that God made us in His own image because man heart reflect such an image of a marvelous spirit from God.
Writing about the marvels of the human heart ( عجائب القلب), Imam Al-Ghazali states: ‘
The honour and excellence of man, by which he outstrips all other creatures, is his ability for knowing God, transcendent is He. It is man’s beauty, perfection and glory in this world, and his provision and store in the world to come. He is prepared for [receiving] such knowledge only via his heart, and not by means of any other of his bodily organs. For it is the heart that knows God, works for God, strives towards God, draws near to God and reveals that which is in the presence of God.
Christian theologian must invent something in order to make it appear that Jesus was crucified to save people from sin otherwise his ordeal in the cross was in vain. They must say that humanity are inherently evil or there would not be any need for Jesus to save them.
This is not only wrong but a mockery to God’s creation, a mockery to His image.
Categories: Christianity, Missionaries
Blogging Theology 
Eric- “There is no evidence from the Tanakh that humanity is innately sinner by nature.” clearly, you have never read the tanakh carefully.
“every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.” Gen 6:5
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With the name of Allah,
Mark, the text does not say human is inherently evil. Yetzer ra יֵצֶר רַע in Gen 6:5 literally “an adverse inclination”. The yetzer ra is not solely associated to what one would “normally” consider as sin or evil. Anything that we do for ourselves (“self preservation,” as opposed to Godly call) is “driven” by this inclination. This includes “normal” activities such as working for a living, building a shelter, seeking a mate, procreation, etc. As well as there is an “adverse inclination” man also has a “favourable inclination”, the yetzer tov; יֵצֶר טוב.
So it is wrong to believe that God actively makes evil, satan does.
I have yet seen any jewish rabbinic sources who understand this inclination as a state of being (that man is inherently evil and sinner), but they view them as one of two competing tendencies (good and bad). Judaism maintains that man has moral freedom. Thus both favourable and adverse inclinations are logically necessary if man is to have free will granted by God.
So it remain so “There is no evidence from the Tanakh that humanity is innately sinner by nature.” Man has the ability to resist and master sin ( chatta’ah חַטָּאָה ⇒ Gen 4:7) Man is a free moral agent.
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Mark
You said;
Eric- “There is no evidence from the Tanakh that humanity is innately sinner by nature.” clearly, you have never read the tanakh carefully.
“every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.” Gen 6:5
I say;
How about every inclination of the thought of the human heart to do good?
The same human heart is inclined to do good or evil. Why must God be unjust to paint human heart as only evil and forget the good thought of the same heart?
Was He not the one who created us that way? to punish us for that?
God did not create a man(human being) to rape and kill someones wife but it is the freewill and choice of the individual to do so. So the offender must be punished without sincere repenting. No blood can wipe that sin unless God’s mercy and forgiveness.
THE SAME HUMAN HEART CAN THINK GOOD OR BAD. WHY MUST GOD PAINT THE HEART AS ALL EVIL ALL THE TIME AND FORGET THE GOOD PART. IT IS UNJUST BY GOD TO DO THAT.
Thanks.
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“Mark, the text does not say human is inherently evil.”
That’s not what The doctrine of original sin teaches. It seems to me that you’re critiquing a straw man argument.
Having an inclination or propensity toward sinfulness is exactly what Gen 6:5 teaches and what Christians believe.
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Inclination to sin is different with “sinner by nature or inherently sinner” …that what christian teaches… like this statement from a christian missionary I quoted here. He believe man is sinner, existing as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute of man.
Again Yetzer ra יֵצֶר רַע in Gen 6:5 does not mean what one would “normally” consider as sin or evil, it is just man self preservation instincts. And Judaism maintain that as well as there is a yetzer ra יֵצֶר רַע “adverse inclination” man also has a “favourable inclination”, the yetzer tov; יֵצֶר טוב., it is like the yin and yang in Chinese philosophical thoughts.
But man has free will and has the ability to control these opposite inclination. That what decide man’s fate in the eyes of God along with His mercy. No need god commit suicide to “pay” man sin.
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\Mark
You said;
Having an inclination or propensity toward sinfulness is exactly what Gen 6:5 teaches and what Christians believe.
I say;
How about man having an inclination or propensity toward goodness, righteousness? If inclination makes all human being sinners then inclination of righteousness will make all human beings righteous and we will all go to heaven and no punishment because human heart has inclination and propensity toward righteousness.
The same human heart is inclined towards sinfulness and righteousness. It is not inclined towards sin alone. So, it is disingenuous for one to select only the inclination to sin and forget the inclination to be righteous, then blame all human beings for that which they were created through no fault of theirs.
Why not the merciful God choose the inclination of the human heart to do righteous and paint all human beings as righteous and then put all of us in heaven because OUR HEART IS INCLINED TOWARDS RIGHTEOUSNESS?
A selfish child can be charitable child within a minute, so, it is disingenuous to say every child is selfish and that it is human nature to be selfish alone. It is human nature to be generous as well.
A crying child who is hates his environment can stop crying within a minute and start loving his environment and be happy with what he has, so it is disingenuous to say a child is born only as a hater and wicked. No a child or human being has both inclinations to be good or bad.
The messengers of God preach to humans to strive to the inclination towards righteousness, good and generous rather than evil and bad.
So, the conclusion is freewill to choose between good and evil, sin and righteousness, bad and god etc because that is what our heart was created and it is choice at the end of the day. You choose good, it is your choice and you choose bad, it is your choice.
Sincere repentance is the ultimate way to cancel your bad choice rather than blood.
Thanks.
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I just noticed this today (Jan. 16) and the link to my previous comment. Very interesting discussion.
Eric wrote:
Mark, the text does not say human is inherently evil. Yetzer ra יֵצֶר רַע in Gen 6:5 literally “an adverse inclination”.
You changed the order of the words of the Hebrew text. Mark is right.
וַיַּרְא יְהוָה כִּי רַבָּה רָעַת הָאָדָם בָּאָרֶץ וְכָל־יֵצֶר מַחְשְׁבֹת לִבֹּו רַק רַע כָּל־הַיֹּֽום׃
וַיַּרְא יְהוָה כִּי רַבָּה רָעַת הָאָדָם בָּאָרֶץ
= And He saw, Yahweh (The LORD) (saw) that great was the wickedness of mankind upon the earth . . . ”
וְכָל־יֵצֶר מַחְשְׁבֹת לִבֹּו רַק רַע כָּל־הַיֹּֽום׃
And all the motives/inclinations/imaginations of the thoughts of his heart were only evil all the day (“continually”)
The text says “Every inclination/ imagination/ motive” כָל־יֵצֶר
“and thoughts of his heart are only evil continually (Literally: “all the days”)” (or “all the day” )-
מַחְשְׁבֹת לִבֹּו רַק רַע כָּל־הַיֹּֽום׃
leaving out the “and all” / “and every” וְכָל – equivalent in Arabic (and Farsi) – و کل = wa kol
and leaving out all the other words in between Yetzar יֵצֶר and Ra רַע – this is not right and you have distorted the meaning of the text big time.
Therefore you did not refute my original point at all, which you linked to at the beginning of the article. (which I appreciate)
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‘Islam has no real way to deal with the sins of the heart.’ Yes it does: repentance of our sins to the living God. Muslims do it all the time. Odd you do not realise that.
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In the Name of Allah
@Ken Temple, sorry I have to remove unnecessary preaching and sarcasm to Islam in your response, please be concise.,
Again the word, רַ֖ע ra is not solely associated to what one would “normally” consider as sin or evil. You don’t seem to have a full grasp of the Tanakh text.
the word, רַ֖ע ra in this context is mere Man’s animalistic tendencies, anything that we do for ourselves which includes “normal” activities such as working for a living, building a shelter, seeking a mate, procreation, etc.
But man also posses good inclination to live by God’s law.
Thus my main point is:
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Eric,
It seems like you are getting caught up in semantics.
Consider this approach; Christians believe that humans sin because we are sinners. We don’t become sinners because we sin. Notice the difference? Our sinful nature proceeds the sin. I believe Islam is the opposite. It follows, therefore, that each religion will have different soteriologies to deal with their view of sin. I find Islam’s approach arbitrary and unhelpful. Clearly you don’t.
Christians believe that humans have a sinful nature, i.e. a propensity or inclination to sinfulness as a result of the fall. This is taught in Gen 6:5 and elsewhere, (for example, several of the psalms and Jeremiah)
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In the Name of Allah
Mark,
Let me ask this question do you hold that all human beings are born guilty of sin?
My experience with christians they believe that and thoroughly entangled with sin for the rest their life
This contradicts the Islamic (and Jewish) belief that man is born innocent and and can live a Godly/righteous life by fulfilling His commandments (sharia).
According to Judaism , humankind was created with both yetser tov (a good inclination) and yetser ra (an adverse inclination).
Gen 6:5 does not teach that either. I learnt this from a rabbi: let’s go back to Genesis 2:7 it uses Hebrew verb וַיִּיצֶר (vayyitser), and [He] formed, i.e., this verse describes God forming the first human being. Notice that the Hebrew verb, which has the root י-צ-ר (yod-tsadi-resh), is spelled here with two letters י (yod), a rather unusual spelling for this conjugation. Then, Genesis 2:19 opens with the Hebrew verb וַיִּצֶר (vayitser), and [He] formed, i.e., this verse describes God forming the land animals and fowl. The same Hebrew verb is spelled here with a single letter י(yod), which is the common spelling for this conjugation.
Finally, take note that the Hebrew word for ‘inclination’, יֵצֶר (yetser), derives from the same root verb as the verbs used in Genesis 2:7&19, and it is even used with regard to humankind’s adverse inclination in Genesis 6:5 ( also in the psalms and Jeremiah as you point put)
This difference in the spelling of the identical verb is explained by jewish rabbi as indication that, from the time of being created, humankind alone is endowed with both Yetser TOV (a good inclination) and Yetser RA (an adverse inclination).
That what differentiate man with animals, because the fact that animals have no moral compass, only instinct Yetser RA (an adverse inclination).
And as for tendency to sin the Tanah clearly teaches that man can rule over it (Genesis 4:7)
..and when man do sin, in Islam we can repent our sins to the living and Merciful God. Muslims do it constantly.
We do not believe in the shedding blood of a man-god as the only way to get the remission of our sins.
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Mark
You said;
Christians believe that humans have a sinful nature, i.e. a propensity or inclination to sinfulness as a result of the fall. This is taught in Gen 6:5 and elsewhere, (for example, several of the psalms and Jeremiah)
I say;
Humans have a righteous nature as well, i.e. a propensity or inclination to righteousness. Why is God not sending all of humans to heaven because their heart has internal righteous nature?
Thanks.
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Because as far as I know, Christians don’t believe that, Intellect.
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Ken Temple
You said;
You have to also deal with Jesus Al Masih’s teaching in Mark 7:20-23 and Matthew 5:22-30 (the root of murder and adultery are in the heart and thoughts – the roots of sin are in the heart and mind – thoughts, motives, imaginations, lusts, desires, etc.
The root of internal sin – the cause of the external sins of society are the internal sins of the heart.
Islam has no real way to deal with the sins of the heart. Islam’s emphasis is on external religion, external rituals, and legalistic rulings and external society and punishments for violating those externals. (Sharia Law)
It is an empty ritualistic externalist religion.
I say;
If the root of murder and adultery are in the heart, and so what? Who created the heart that way? humans? No, humans cannot create the heart that way to have a root of murder and adultery and so are not responsible for how the heart was created but humans are responsible for not listening to the words of God.
The word of God says; do not murder and do not commit adultery and the heart also has the root of righteousness in that, the same human heart, thoughts, mind and imagination at the same time inclines human to think of good, not murder, not adultery, do charity, help the poor, feed the hungry etc.
So, the heart, mind, thoughts, mind imagination can be good or bad, but are not sin until the person commits the act. The act can be physical or through ones mind.
So do not sin whether physical or through your mind. If you think of killing someone and the person arrived and the same heart and mind changes you not to kill him and rather turn all the bad thoughts down and follow the good thoughts. Will you be punished for that?
No. You did have a sinful thought from the heart and at the same time had a righteous thought and you chose the righteous through your will, so it is freewill and choice that counts and not the heart or internal and external sins.
There is nothing like internal or external sins but any sin is a sin. No blood can wash your choice to do good or bad but sincere repentance that is why Christians still REPENT WHEN THEY SIN because the blood of Jesus could not wash their sins despite his death on the cross to wash their sins.
Thanks.
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Mark
You said;
Because as far as I know, Christians don’t believe that, Intellect.
I say;
It is not what Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhist etc. believe but what matters is the truth, logic, rationality, untruths, lies, illogicalities, inconsistencies etc.
If what someone believes is untrue with inconsistencies then it is not from God because God said He is not the author of confusion.
The reason why I kept repeating the human heart and mind is inclined towards righteousness, good, etc. is because it is true. The human heart is not inclined to sin and bad alone but to righteousness and good as well so the Christians with all due respect lied to let us believe human heart is only sinful.
Is not what you believe but what is the truth and with all due respect you lied to say the human heart and mind is only sinful and bad but not righteous and good as well.
Thanks.
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Intellect,
Do you have children? I have 5, and for every single one of them I have had to train them to be good. They do wrong things naturally. Original sin is one of the most self obvious and true doctrines I can think of.
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In the Name of Allah
//Do you have children? I have 5, and for every single one of them I have had to train them to be good. They do wrong things naturally.//
Mark,
Modern psychology disagree with this outdated view.
Babies are born with built-in morality.
Read this article:
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/are-babies-born-good-165443013/?all
Yale psychologist Paul Bloom, writes:
Islam too teaches that man are born with innate good godly qualities , later exposure which determine the outcome of their behaviour.
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Mark
You said;
Intellect,
Do you have children? I have 5, and for every single one of them I have had to train them to be good. They do wrong things naturally. Original sin is one of the most self obvious and true doctrines I can think of.
I say;
Children and/or babies have both good and bad habits and it means humans are created with freewill and choice. Even babies do not know right and wrong yet but sometimes they are selfish and sometimes they are good.
A crying baby who hates his environment for some reason can start to smile and love his environment. As babies who do not know right and wrong needs your guidance to right because even grown ups still needs guidance to right and that is why God sends his prophets to guide even the grown ups to the right path and away from wrong.
Guiding your children to the right path does not mean they are born sinners. Babies are not always selfish and hates but the same baby who cries and hates people will be smiling and loving people within minutes.
It happens to my babies.
Thanks.
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Mark
Some children/babies do not have father and mother and no guardian and grow up to use their heart, mind and intellect to throw the sinful thoughts away and pick the good thoughts. You can do it if you fear God and obey His law but not God’s blood.
How will God blood looks like? Pure white?
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Ken Temple
Will it be just for your God to throw your innocent baby into a flaming hell fire because he(baby) did not murder, rape, steal, etc. or did anything? I do think it is unjust and barbaric and cruel for any God to burn all babies who died as babies through no fault of theirs in the hell fire.
It is just not true that man is born a sinner for a sin he did not commit. It is wrong to think that way. Thinking that way makes one blaspheme against God because it makes God looks barbaric.
In Islam, this is the solution. Humans are born with freewill and choice and that distinguish humans and other creatures.
Angels obey God and cannot disobey God and it is slavery to not disobey your master. So, we are all slaves to God except one Christian on this blog who blames Muslims for being slaves to God. Jesus said “Our Father who art in heaven”, “Give us this day our daily bread” and Jesus fell to the ground like Muslims do to pray to God.
So, Jesus himself is a slave to God because he is not God and he is not like God that is why he is obeying God like Muslims but Jesus is not obeying God like Christians for waiting for God’s blood or Holy Spirit to inhabit him.
Jesus perform the Muslim rituals like bowing down to God and falling on ground to worship God and praying and asking God for help and saving him(Jesus). If any one blames Muslims for rituals to get closer to God, then that person has insulted Jesus Christ because Christ performed rituals similar to Muslims and fasted and all prophets fasted and did not wait for Holy Spirit to inhabit them.
Human being is different from other creations because they are from God image and not structure as God because no one has seen God and knows His structure because the Bible said God cannot be seen and God cannot die and so Jesus is not God.
God image in the sense, we can think and can have choice and freewill to decide what we want to do and that makes us “in God’s image” and not structure of God please because “nothing else is like God” says the Bible.
Our freewill and choice comes with constraint and limit and that is to do good and not bad which is both in our heart, mind and thoughts.
Is the evil thoughts the problem of man? no Man did not create the evil thoughts. Satan and his associates put that evil thoughts in our mind, hearts and thoughts.
God always blames Satan for that in the Quran and asks mankind to be aware of that.
—————————
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
Did I not charge you, O children of Adam! that you should not serve the Shaitan? Surely he is your open enemy, And that you should serve Me; this is the right way. (Quran: 36:60-61)
—————————-
O children of Adam! let not the Shaitan cause you to fall into affliction as he expelled your parents from the garden, pulling off from them both their clothing that he might show them their evil inclinations, he surely sees you, he as well as his host, from whence you cannot see them… (Quran:7:27)
—————————
God gave us antidote to Satan(evil thoughts) by worshiping Him(God) and following His commands and performing rituals that Jesus and all prophets did like reading the words of God, purifying our heart using rituals like fasting and praying to God, charity, repentance etc.
The best antidote is our minds, hearts and thoughts are also blessed with inclination to righteousness and good to counter the evil thoughts. So the heart, mind and thoughts is not our problem but satan is our problem and he is real.
You start avoiding satan by sticking to truth and if Nabeel Quraish lied about Islam, disown him as Dr. White did but not to support him to peddle the lies about Islam and that will bring you back to rejecting Trinity and God becoming man because it is not true but satan cause humans to lie and extract pagan religion into Christianity.
Please read this for your own benefit.
http://www.al-islam.org/the-heart-of-the-quran-commentary-of-sura-yasin-ayatullah-dastaghaib/ayat-no-60-61
Thanks.
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“Let me ask this question do you hold that all human beings are born guilty of sin?”
Christian theologians usually distinguish between inherited guilt and inherited sin. The former comes from a New Testament verse that all humans are counted guilty on account of our heritage with Adam. The latter is the doctrine we have already discussed, that we all inherit a sinful nature with a inclination toward sinfulness.
Eric, just for the record, modern psychology also thinks transgenderism is a normal and healthy behaviour. Should we accept that too? And please remember that rabbinic judaism is a religous tradition based more on traditions than the Bible.
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In the Name of Allah
Mark you wrote
I dont really get your answer, so you are saying that sinful nature with an inclination toward sinfulness and original sin (inherited from Adam) is two different things.
If yes, my next question. Do you not believe in original sin?
We may disagree with your term “inclination toward sinfulness” as to my understanding Judaism do not have this same understanding. The yetzer ra inclination in Gen 6:5 is not all bad, as long as it is kept under control it is just man desire to survive. In Paradise this inclination (as well as godly inclination) are not needed. But after satan tempted Adam and made them “took residence” on Earth these two inclinations are activated for them to differentiate between”good” and “bad”.
Islam too does not teach that humankind bore the guilt from Adam sin.Man are born sinless and with innate desire to worship God. We sin because God has created our natures fallible (da’if). While we have the ability to steer our “free will” in any direction, we remain exposed to Satan temptation that can lead us to sin.
I do not think the jews recognise so called rabbinic -judaism, according their understanding of the Tanakh are the same with Moses. My appeal to Judaism here because the jews are the one who were first given and knew the Tanakh and Christianity has common link to Judaism. while muslims even though we do not completely reject of the Tanakh we only recognise the Qur’an as the highest authority.
//Eric, just for the record, modern psychology also thinks transgenderism is a normal and healthy behaviour. Should we accept that too?//
No of course not. Although I think the issue is far from settled. My point is you can not make any conclusion from random observation that infant are not born with Godly qualities. My own observation with my kids ( I have 3 teenage kids now) infants do has intrinsic morality and as they grow older it is getting stronger.
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Mark
You said;
Christian theologians usually distinguish between inherited guilt and inherited sin. The former comes from a New Testament verse that all humans are counted guilty on account of our heritage with Adam. The latter is the doctrine we have already discussed, that we all inherit a sinful nature with a inclination toward sinfulness.
I say;
What is the purpose of the above paragraph from you? If the New Testament or the Quran says something, it does not make it true, until it is true itself(What the scripture says).
It is completely not true that we inherited or counted as guilty from the sins of Adam and Eve. If your Father kills someone, is it just for you to be prosecuted and put into jail for what your father did? It is no justice but barbarism. Is it just for God to put you into hell fire because your father kill someone? It is barbarism, so God will not do that.
If your scripture says we are all guilty for the sins of Adam, then there is a problem in the verse and may be Satan influence the writer to write such blaspheme in the Bible. It is up to us the individuals to use our heart, mind and thought to righteousness to determine that this verse is not true and it is from Satan because God will not be such wicked.
Surely the Shaitan is your enemy, so take him for an enemy… (Quran: 35:6)
Furthermore, we did not inherit sinful nature from anyone but we are created with freewill and choice and so have both sin and righteous choice to choose. We are created that way and did not inherit it from Adam. Rocks, Animals, Birds, Angels etc. are not created this way and so will not be judged by God.
Why are you not talking about righteous nature? Don’t we have righteous thoughts from our hearts? as well? thinking of not killing anyone from our hearts? giving charity to the poor? thinking of helping others? thinking of forgiving others who wronged us? etc.
Why is Christianity hiding the good part of human beings and wrongfully blaming us from the bad part we did not participate? It is obviously not true that we inherited the guilty of some ones sins. It is simply not true. Satan is our problem and not our heart or how our heart thinks or created because we did not create our hearts or minds that way but Satan puts the wrong thoughts in there and we have to purify our hearts by fasting like Jesus and all the prophets did and perform rituals of worshiping the only one God of Abraham.
Thanks.
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Mark, are you the same “Mark” who said on the other thread that Jesus’ nature cannot be divided?
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Figuratively speaking the “human glass” is obviously half full. Some Christians insist it is empty by nature (or since the “fall”). Makes no sense.
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Mark
You said;
“Let me ask this question do you hold that all human beings are born guilty of sin?”
Christian theologians usually distinguish between inherited guilt and inherited sin. The former comes from a New Testament verse that all humans are counted guilty on account of our heritage with Adam. The latter is the doctrine we have already discussed, that we all inherit a sinful nature with a inclination toward sinfulness.
I say;
The above is from satan because it is satan that we have to be careful about but not our sinful nature because we have righteous nature as well.
Satan influences the sinful nature and God controls all the natures because God will not like any one to follow Satan but Him(God), so He(God) sent down prophets and scriptures to guide us.
This is what the scripture clearly state about sin and clearly states that there is not inheritance of sin.
———————————-
◄ Ezekiel 18:20 ►
New International Version
The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.
———————————
Any one who preaches that we inherited sin is against the Bible and he is following some one’s own writings in the scripture that was influenced by satan.
Sahih International:
Quran 35:6
Indeed, Satan is an enemy to you; so take him as an enemy. He only invites his party to be among the companions of the Blaze.
Reflections
http://www.iqrasense.com/satan-and-evil/satan-story-shaitaan-tactics-methods-to-ward-off-influences-whispers.html
Thanks.
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god created adam without mother and father
adam was created “perfect” because god was directly involved.
how is it possible that the spirit/mind/thought within adam acted upon it’s temptation?
was the spirit of god so weak that it was defeated by satan and satan’ invisible spirit took control over adam’s mind?
lets replace adam with jesus. say that jesus , who was tempted by satan for 40 days, was tempted to eat from the tree.
if you say that a tempted jesus will not eat from the tree, but a tempted adam would eat from the tree, then the question is why is god such a powerless thing in your theology? or why does he show bias towards himself (even though he gets tempted) , but doesn’t prevent adam from eating from the tree i.e, make him freely choose the good over the bad?
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“every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.” Gen 6:5
if we go by your interpretation, then which doctor has revealed that children when nursed think about sins like adultery or fornication? either your interpretation is a lie , or the gen 6:5 is a big lie. i want to know if anyone remembers about all the sinful thoughts in the womb. i want to know if the jews brought a SIN sacrifice for children because children were “born in sin”
why is it that pagan sacrificed their children to their gods?
why is is that no sin sacrifice is bought for the birth of the infant in the torah? SIN sacrifice
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jeremiah
Thus says the Lord:
Cursed are those who trust in mere mortals
and make mere flesh their strength,
whose hearts turn away from the Lord.
6 They shall be like a shrub in the desert,
and shall not see when relief comes.
They shall live in the parched places of the wilderness,
in an uninhabited salt land.
7 Blessed are those who trust in the Lord,
whose trust is the Lord.
8 They shall be like a tree planted by water,
sending out its roots by the stream.
It shall not fear when heat comes,
and its leaves shall stay green;
in the year of drought it is not anxious,
and it does not cease to bear fruit.
9 The heart is devious above all else;
it is perverse—
who can understand it?
10 I the Lord test the mind
and search the heart,
to give to all according to their ways,
according to the fruit of their doings.
notice that god contrasted TRUST in man with trust in god? god says he “test” and “search” the heart
the logic is that god would know that if man is putting trust in flesh gods who die on crosses and then saying “lord ” “lord” / putting trust in the invisible god ” blessed are those who trust in…”
so it is not really about EVIL heart. from a context point of view it is about LOYALTY. and it says that the same heart will be “give to all according to their ways…”
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“Do you have children? I have 5, and for every single one of them I have had to train them to be good. They do wrong things naturally. Original sin is one of the most self obvious and true doctrines I can think of.”
when your child does a wrong do you tell them “you are born defective, it is not your fault” ?
why can’t you say this to your children that they are “born defective” and they need a man god myth /bloody human sacrificial ritual?
is it because of shame?
the bible says about children :
Deuteronomy 1:34 When Yahweh heard what you said, he was angry and solemnly swore: 35 “Not a man of this evil generation shall see the good land I swore to give your forefathers, 36 except Caleb son of Jephunneh. He will see it, and I will give him and his descendants the land he set his feet on, because he followed Yahweh wholeheartedly.” 37 Because of you Yahweh became angry with me also and said, “You shall not enter it, either. 38 But your assistant, Joshua son of Nun, will enter it. Encourage him, because he will lead Israel to inherit it. 39 And the LITTLE ONES that you said would be taken captive, your children who do not yet know good from bad–they will enter the land. I will give it to them and they will take possession of it.”
so the hebrew writer thought “do not yet know good from bad…”
you said “train them to be good…” but the bible says ” do not YET KNOW GOOD FROM BAD…”
so who is right? you or your bible?
if a child is BORN to quickly COPY what it sees then people better start to do good things in front of them?
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In the Name of Allah
Good point mansubzero
Ever since the Revelation to prophet Moses at Mount Sinai, man won’t even be guilty of the sin of their parents, let alone Adam. So our guilt has to be for our own sin alone.
I wonder why christians find difficult to understand that with regard to sin, man are born sinless with innate desire to worship God and that because God has created our natures fallible (da’if), while we have the free will not to sin, satan is active to tempt us to sin however we can get it right with “God’ Mercy” Rahmah رحمة through the process prescribed in the Hebrew Scriptures, which consists of prayer, contrite repentance, and good deeds.
The concept of god committing suicide to pay the sin of the man he created is utterly nonsensical, it is invented concept to make apparent death of Jesus in the cross become relevant ..
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mansubzero
Thanks. If the Bible clearly states that “children do not yet know good from the bad”, then it is only satan who will influence someone to think God will punish them from the bad they do not know. I appreciate your input.
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Intellect.
Why do you ignore the biblical passages that do teach inherited guilt and sin? Our job is to try to understand it all, not be selective to suit an agenda.
Suppose I quoted Surah 9:29 out of context and based an argument around that. Please be consistent
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Mark
This is a clear verse from the Bible that states that, there is no inherited guilt with regards to sin;
◄ Ezekiel 18:20 ►
New International Version
The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.
mansubzero, has pulled more verses from the Bible that clearly states that babies do not know wrong from right and that no Doctor to date has said a toddler has the thoughts of lust, fornication, adultery, stealing, armed robbery, etc.
If you can remember of a thought of lust and having sex with someone’s beautiful wife when you were a toddler, then present your case to doctors to publish it as true, the you and your thinking will have a case. If you can’t then it means you did not interpret the Bible well or you have a problem.
With regards to sura 9:29, unlike the Christian scripture commanding the annihilation anything including babies and animals, the same chapter of the Quran clearly regulates the conduct of war by saying. “Stop fighting them if they stop fighting you”, “Help anyone from them to a safety place if he calls your help”, “Do not exceed the limit for Allah does not want aggressors” etc.
We Muslims from our Islamic studies knows we must follow this rule. Just like the crusaders and Zionists who use the Bible to commit atrocities, some idiot Muslims are also using the Quran to commit atrocities. Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus and all peace loving people must unite against Muslim extremist like isis, book etc. and Christians/Jewish Zionist like Jack Van Impe, John Hagee, Donald Trump, Ben Carson etc.
Thanks.
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Mark – “Why do you ignore the biblical passages that do teach inherited guilt and sin?”
It’s a fact the Bible can be and is interpreted in all sort of conflicting ways. You need a quality control. That’s what the Qu’ran is for
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perfect reply Burhanuddin
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“Why do you ignore the biblical passages that do teach inherited guilt and sin? ”
show me one place in the torah which say that a sin sacrifice was brought because a mother did a deed and that is bring sin into the world of by baby being born in sin
if you can show me the place, i will know for sure the torah is a book of contradictions
innocent children don’t have Sin sacrifices for them, but they do get sacrificed by the early hebrew and pagans all over the world. why did they get sacrificed? what was the thought of these people about new born?
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“Why do you ignore the biblical passages that do teach inherited guilt and sin? ”
we know that the torah tells us that the jews killed innocent infants because of the crime of their forefathers. but that is because of grudge and not “inherited guilt and sin” . what we want to see is a place where a sin sacrifice is required for an innocent baby, who according to you, “inherited guilt and sin”
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why have different cultures practised infanticide?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide
what was it about the new born? what was special?
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“And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.” Math. 18:3
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it seems like jesus confirmed my own thoughts which i forwarded to Eric Kissam
quote:
why are people told to LEARN to do right? what does this mean if one is BORN defective?
why are you told to remember the nature which came into this world? because it didn’t have a sin to its name.
Like · Reply · 1 · January 18 at 2:51pm · Edited
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“no Doctor to date has said a toddler has the thoughts of lust, fornication, adultery, stealing, armed robbery, etc.”
Case in point. That is not the doctrine teaches. It says that all humans inherit a sinful nature, a inclination toward sinfulness, not that infants will commit sins such as those mentioned. You really seem confused regarding what you’re trying to critique.
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Mark,
This is the thing I want to seek clarification from you,
do you believe that infant is born with inherited sin from Adam’s guilt?
Inclination toward sinfulness is not the same with a state of bearing sin itself.
Islam too acknowledge that human being is weak ضَّعِيف .
God says:
Muslim scholar Ash’Sheikh Mohammad ibn Saalih Al Uthaymeen wrote on his book (الخلاف بين العلماء أسبابه وموقفنا منه) on this passage
Satan can prey on human on their weakness to fall into sinful actions. But this nature is not necessarily someting “evil” or “sinful”. Islamic position is more or less in sync with Judaism with regard to human have yetzer ra יֵצֶר רַע in Gen 6:5 as their nature as I have explained.
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“It’s a fact the Bible can be and is interpreted in all sort of conflicting ways. You need a quality control. That’s what the Qu’ran is for”
Yeah, except the Koran is also subject to conflicting interpretations. Unless you agree with all those terrorists and liberals? It’s a somewhat simplistic approach you suggest here…
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Mark
Your said;
“no Doctor to date has said a toddler has the thoughts of lust, fornication, adultery, stealing, armed robbery, etc.”
Case in point. That is not the doctrine teaches. It says that all humans inherit a sinful nature, a inclination toward sinfulness, not that infants will commit sins such as those mentioned. You really seem confused regarding what you’re trying to critique.
I say;
Let’s be clear here. What is inclination?
Dictionary
noun
noun: inclination; plural noun: inclinations
1. a person’s natural tendency or urge to act or feel in a particular way; a disposition or propensity.
“John was a scientist by training and inclination”
synonyms: tendency , propensity , proclivity , leaning , predisposition , disposition , predilection , desire , wish , impulse , bent , bias
2. a slope or slant.
“changes in inclination of the line on the graph”
Source
https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=5kugVr7KLqqC8QeC1bywAg&gws_rd=ssl#q=what+is+inclination
Mark, Do you remember having the urge, tendency, feel, etc. to lust someone’s wife when you were a toddler? I do not think you have that inclination and no medical journal has published such findings because they do publish from time to time some findings about humans.
Infants are human beings and so if they die as infants, it is clear that either you did not interpret the Bible very well or the Bible lied because infants as human beings were not born with inclination toward sinfulness. The Bible itself said clearly that infants do not know wrong from right but you ignore all that and choose the one that is either not true or you did not interpret it well but accuse me of what you are doing.
SINFUL NATURE
Again, babies, toddlers and infants have no sinful nature but as they grow they have righteous nature and thinking of helping others, saving others, sharing their foods and things with others, giving charity, thinking of not killing anyone, seeking forgiveness from those the wronged, seeking God the creator etc.
Satan will then start to tempt them with sinful thoughts and they can counter it immediately with righteous thoughts. Everyone knows killing someone or stealing is not good even if the person is not religious. So most people without believing in Jesus or Allah can quickly repel satan by using their righteous thoughts or nature or whatever to decide not to steal or kill someone because it is not morally right.
Human, from babies growing up have Godly morals in them, it is only satan who starts to tempt them when they grow and know the right and wrong.
Allah said, Satan is our enemy and we must not follow satan to commit sin but to obey God law and fast like Jesus fast and fall down to the ground and worship God like Jesus and all prophets did and to continue seeking refuge to God against satan the cursed one.
Thanks.
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“Infants are human beings and so if they die as infants, it is clear that either you did not interpret the Bible very well or the Bible lied because infants as human beings were not born with inclination toward sinfulness.”
Sorry, but you are wrong here.
“Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me”- Zabur (psalm) 51:5
Prophet David teaches that children are sinful from moment of conception.
This is why I reject the Koran- it is not consistent with what the former prophets taught
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With the name of Allah the Gracious the Merciful
“Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me”- Zabur (psalm) 51:5
Mark, Psalms 51:5 is prophet David’s expression of remorse for what he did with Bath-Shiva not that David was born into sin.
Here is the text in Hebrew with the literal rendering:
There are two words in the text that are crucial to a correct interpretation: in with “iniquity” – בְּעָו֥וֹן Heb: be’awon. Be meaning “with” and avown meaning – iniquity … and with “sin” וּ֝בְחֵ֗טְא , be chet meaning – sin.
Consider another text where be’awon is used: Genesis 19:15 records the warning to Lot to leave Sodom –
…lest thou be swept away with the iniquity (be’awon) of the city”(JPS).
This is not saying that Lot bore iniquity himself, but rather that he was “in the midst of iniquity”.
The same David said,
Clearly prophet David believes righteousness is within reach.
“With sin” – in the last part of the verse in hebrew simply וּ֝בְחֵ֗טְא יֶֽחֱמַ֥תְנִי אִמִּֽי uvechete yechemathni immi which literally means -“and with sin my mother (who) conceived me”, this clearly to refer to the condition of prophet David’s mother who was also subject to sin not that from David’s birth he bore sin.
There is one very clear passage in the Tanakh which must be harmonized with this passage in Ps 51:5 that is Ezekiel 18:20. The passage reads – “The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son…”
There is no way that the doctrine of inherited original sin can be true if this passage is also true!
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Mark “Yeah, except the Koran is also subject to conflicting interpretations.”
Not with regard to “doctrine original sin”, necessary blood sacrifice for redemption etc. dude.
There is no such thing in Islam.
These things are discussed solely based on conflicting “biblical” interpretation. Right from the start of “Christianity” by the way.
The Quran sets the record straight.
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“Case in point. That is not the doctrine teaches. It says that all humans inherit a sinful nature, a inclination toward sinfulness, not that infants will commit sins such as those mentioned. You really seem confused regarding what you’re trying to critique.”
okay, when your children act childish,do you tell them that they have inherited a sinful nature, an inclination toward sinfulness?
if the infants don’t commit sins then they cannot be held accountable , correct or incorrect?
which thing in your children and infants is “inclination toward sinfulness” ?
children cry that is something they incline to do
children eat that is something they incline to do
now tell that if sinful inclination is found within children just like eating and crying.
maybe the children are not sinful but you are seeing your own sins within the child?
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” It says that all humans inherit a sinful nature, a inclination toward sinfulness,”
notice how your language is clearly missing from the following two texts :
“15 He shall eat curds and honey by the time he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16 For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted.”
“39 And the LITTLE ONES that you said would be taken captive, your children who do not yet know good from bad–they will enter the land. I will give it to them and they will take possession of it.”
notice how similar the language is? it gets more clearer in isaiah when it says “…HOW to refuse the evil and choose the good”
so before the child reaches the age he doesn’t know anything about good and evil. the “refuse the evil…” will start from a later time.
in a child is sinful inclination just like eating and drinking?
how can you tell that an infant is having a sinful INCLINATION? when it cries too much?
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“humans are counted guilty on account of our heritage with Adam”
if i do a sinful action, then i am guilty of it. if adam had a sexual thought, INFANTS inherit the GUILT.
can you believe this?
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“With sin” – in the last part of the verse in hebrew simply וּ֝בְחֵ֗טְא יֶֽחֱמַ֥תְנִי אִמִּֽי uvechete yechemathni immi which literally means -“and with sin my mother (who) conceived me”, this clearly to refer to the CONDITION of prophet David’s mother who was also subject to sin not that from David’s birth he bore sin.”
you mean they didn’t remember God before they conceived david?
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“With sin” – in the last part of the verse in hebrew simply וּ֝בְחֵ֗טְא יֶֽחֱמַ֥תְנִי אִמִּֽי uvechete yechemathni immi which literally means -“and with sin my mother (who) conceived me”, this clearly to refer to the CONDITION of prophet David’s mother who was also subject to sin not that from David’s birth he bore sin.”
you mean they didn’t remember God before they conceived david?
Yes,it could be before she conceived David.
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Mark
Whatever contradictions you will scout from the Bible, Ezekiel 18:20 is clear that – “The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son…” And Bible telling us that children do not know right or wrong is against what you scout from the Bible with regards to inheritance of guilt about sin from someone.
You are ignoring Biblical verses and seeking refuge from David’s unclear or metaphorical statement. Ezekiel 18:20 and verses about children not knowing wrong and right is absolutely clear from the Bible. Why do you ignore them? and choose unclear verses?
This is the same thing Christians do. They ignore the clear verses and choose unclear or ambiguous statements as their salvation. There are many statements in the Bible that clearly states God is One, Only and Alone but no single verse that says God is three persons and Trinitarian will prefer the one that is not in the Bible and Rabbi Toviah Singer is frustrated about that.
Thanks.
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Scriptural harmonisation is what we attempt to do. The tanakh teaches two things:
1. That people are guilty for their own sins.ezekial 18 is a text for this.
2. That people inherit a sinful nature and are guilty of generational sin
“Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;” exodus 20:5
When we unpack all this, the doctrine of original sin is what prevails.
Eric, word studies can be terribly misleading since words need to be read in their own context.
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With the name of Allah
When people are guilty for their own sins they can not be guilty of generational sin. This is fallacious belief.
When the Tanakh says that
It means human can make mistakes of their parents which are often repeated by them. The emphasis on the words “of those who hate Me” means generation can repent and turn back to God so we are all responsible for our own sins.
//Eric, word studies can be terribly misleading since words need to be read in their own context//
Mind you that my philological treatment on the scripture always look at the context.
The Jews as a special people have both individual and collective responsibilities thus they are judged both as a nation and as individuals. In every generation they (as a community) could have repented util prophet Jesus the messiah come as their warner.
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mansubzero
January 21, 2016 • 10:31 am
“humans are counted guilty on account of our heritage with Adam”
if i do a sinful action, then i am guilty of it. if adam had a sexual thought, INFANTS inherit the GUILT.
can you believe this?”
Yes, because we are one in Adam. This doctrine is what prophet Musa taught as well as prophet David. Since Muhammad taught things contrary to the former prophets he should be rejected as a false prophet.
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Mark
You said;
Scriptural harmonisation is what we attempt to do. The tanakh teaches two things:
1. That people are guilty for their own sins.ezekial 18 is a text for this.
2. That people inherit a sinful nature and are guilty of generational sin
“Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;” exodus 20:5
I say;
Where in the above does it say “That people inherit a sinful nature and are guilty of generational sin”. You have to repent because you added your wishful thinking to serve your whims and caprice to the word of God.
The Exodus 20:5 has nothing to do with guilt of someone’s sin but it is talking about those who HATE HIM(God). Abraham grew among idol worshipers but God did not hate Abraham because his father and his forefathers and their generations worship idols and hated God.
Our prophet Mohammed grew among idol worshipers but God did not hate him(Mohammed) because he was from a generation of idol worshipers. The same can be said to many prophets, saints and pious people.
When Christians invaded the USA, they used Bible to kill the native Americans and enslaved the Blacks and persecuted the Catholics and Mormons by killing them. We have the younger generations of this Christians who do not share what their forefathers did. Will God Almighty find them guilty and throw them into hell fire because of what their older generations did?
There are still some Christians in the south of USA who hold the views of what their forefathers did to the blacks, natives, Catholics and Mormons and those are the ones who hate God and the exodus 20:5 is talking about but not those who do not share the same ideology.
Ezekiel 18 clearly states the child will not share the guilt of his fathers sin and therefore cannot harmonize with anything that said closer to the opposite i.e. Son sharing the guilt of his father’s sin. It is clear opposite cannot harmonize. Some one who is dead cannot harmonize with someone who is alive and that is one of Trinitarian believe i.e. God died but God is alive. I am asleep but I am awake, This car is black but this same car is white. Please stop bullying us into submission for two things that cannot harmonize.
Thanks.
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“Are humans sinners by nature and in the heart?”
Of course not, whoever said that is exaggerating.
However, the Bible is clear that humans have the ability to do good or bad. Therefore, the ability to sin or to obey God’s commands do come from our nature. We are not necessarily sinners by nature (i.e it’s not like we were born or designed for the sake to sin), but it is in our nature to sin (i.e it is inherent within human nature that we have the ability to sin).
The phrasing of questions or statements makes a big difference.
Plus the Quran acknowledges that most of humanity has the tendency to sin, such as in Surah 5:49 ” And truly most men are rebellious.”
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With the name of Allah the Gracious the Merciful
Marvin, thanks for your contribution in the discussion
“the Quran acknowledges that most of humanity has the tendency to sin, such as in Surah 5:49 ” And truly most men are rebellious.”
The fact that many men are rebellious, is not the same as saying that all men are born with inherited sin from Adam’s guilt so that we continuously entangled with it for the rest our life unless god killed himself to pay for this inherited sin.
Islam (and Judaims) teach that
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Mark
You said;
if i do a sinful action, then i am guilty of it. if adam had a sexual thought, INFANTS inherit the GUILT.
can you believe this?”
Yes, because we are one in Adam. This doctrine is what prophet Musa taught as well as prophet David. Since Muhammad taught things contrary to the former prophets he should be rejected as a false prophet.
I say;
We are talking about satan and how to avoid him and Islam is warning against satan and how to worship God and overcome satan but Mark is talking about “sinful nature”, “sinful thought”, “bad human heart”, “wicked babies”, “no righteousness in human except sin”, etc. and blaming poor humans and leaving satan of the hook and believe that is what Christ taught.
Well, Christ fasted and fell to the ground and worship the only one God of Abraham who is Alone to seek refuge to God away from satan and that is what prophet Mohammed taught. Human being can be blamed only if he chooses to follow satan and not use his God given righteousness to repel the sinful thoughts that is being influenced by satan. Adam or Eve cannot put anyone to hell because of their actions but it is Satan than influence people to go to hell and not Adams sin.
Rabbi Tovia Singer tells you that in Judaism, all their prophets preached against satan and not Adams sin and those preaching Adams sin are following satan to sway people from fighting him(satan) and instead of worshiping one God of Abraham, they blame Adam and wait for the blood of Jesus which did not save Christians except they repent like anyone else.
Thanks.
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Mr. Henry
Long time. Please advice your Christian fellows especially Mark and Ken Temple to believe what you said because that is true and stop blaming poor mans “heart”, “sinful nature”, “poor babies who to not know who the heck Jesus was”, etc.
They should instead blame satan and worship one God of Abraham, fast, pray, read God’s word, give charity, love others and tell the truth especially if they see one etc and away from satan. It is clear Jesus Christ did all these things but never wait for his blood to purify his heart or Holy Spirit to inhabit him.
Thanks.
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Yes long time Intellect, I probably won’t be here for long ;).
Anyway I’m not disagreeing with Ken or Mark. To be honest I haven’t read everything here but like I said earlier, even the Quran acknowledges that most of humanity has a rebellious nature, i.e we don’t always follow God’s commandments. In fact, I actually agree with them about the fact that we have a sinful nature as I’ve explained above. That isn’t to say we are just innately born with a tendency to sin from birth, but that it exists within us to do so. In fact, human beings have needed guidance from God through the scriptures to ensure that we get this stuff right. Just observe the ancient nations around Israel in those biblical times and all the things they did. Most had a tendency to follow polytheism and other acts which the Bible and Quran condemn, such as gambling, uncontrolled sex, sacrificing children and more. Of course they probably had some moral laws to control themselves, as the Bible says that God has given us a conscience but it was nothing like what we are told to do in the scriptures. One question then is whether we would still be so morally conscience of these things if it were not for scriptures? And that leads to a question of human nature and the tendency to sin. If we truly were born completely pure and more likely to be righteous than sinful, what was the need for God to guide humanity so much through all the prophets? If you just observe the Hebrew biblical history we get a different view of humanity. This is where I agree with Ken and Mark. It seems as though righteousness and piety and all other good things that we do have to be trained and disciplined more, whereas it seems much easier for people to fall into sin when there is no guidance. Whenever the Israelites for example fell into more and more sin, a prophet would arise to warn them. They got obedient and righteous for a little while, then would forget the message and the cycle starts again.
I agree that evil and rebellion come from satan, however we can’t always blame satan for all of our problems and sins. Even if satan was to tempt someone to do evil, we still have free will and the ability to either give in or resist. That comes from our choices, not satan. When God condemns human beings for their behaviour, it’s not Satan who’s going to get all the blame and punishment, it’s also the human beings who committed the sins.
We have a responsibility to acknowledge our sins and repent, rather than say “satan did it” and make our sins seem less serious than they are. The Bible is very clear that sin, no matter how small is very severe in the eyes of God. Here’s where there’s some differences between Christian and Islamic views of sins. In the Bible, the sin of lying is just as bad as murder in the eyes of God. The penalties are different but at the end of the day, they’re both major sins in God’s eyes which is why no one can claim to be completely righteous or without sin. This is explained in James 2:10-11 “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.”
God’s commandments have equal weighting.
In Islam however, there are major and minor sins and this is probably why issues such as humans having a sinful nature seems strange to Muslims but makes sense to Christians. That isn’t to say there’s necessarily a contradiction, for example I agree that lying is a more minor sin than murdering. The only difference is that in God’s sight, whichever we do will still make us unholy.
Regardless though, all these religions acknowledge the problem of sin, evil and satan. Rather than argue bitterly about it, which won’t make much difference to be honest, we should focus more on what Intellect mentioned such as worshipping one God, praying, fasting, reading His word, charity, love etc because this is what will make a real difference in our own lives but also of those around us.
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January 21, 2016 • 10:31 am
“humans are counted guilty on account of our heritage with Adam”
if i do a sinful action, then i am guilty of it. if adam had a sexual thought, INFANTS inherit the GUILT.
can you believe this?”
“Yes, because we are one in Adam. This doctrine is what prophet Musa taught as well as prophet David.”
so adam has a sinful sexual thought and the infant inherit the guilt even if he/she has no thought/experience of it in his/her infancy? man, what kind of a god do you worship?
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“We are talking about satan and how to avoid him and Islam is warning against satan and how to worship God and overcome satan but Mark is talking about “sinful nature”, “sinful thought”, “bad human heart”, “wicked babies”, “no righteousness in human except sin”, etc. and blaming poor humans and leaving satan of the hook and believe that is what Christ taught.”
note that in the jewish torah , it says ” god will bring all of every man’s actions to judgement”
this means that the nature of the human will not be judged, but the actions.
baby jesus inherits his mothers facial features, but god makes sure he doesn’t inherit original sin even though he will get tempted by satan for 40 days
all other children are doomed even though god was directly involved in creating adam
since god is creator of everything, this means he created every human “born in sin”
god then sets a trap for himself and then has to get trapped by his own creation to satisfy his justice.
god created a trap for himself, when the human made a wrong choice , god was trapped and then did what any other human would do
this isn’t god, this is a human being.
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brother, Eric bin Kisam,
look at this
“the Quran acknowledges that most of humanity has the tendency to sin, such as in Surah 5:49 ” And truly most men are rebellious.”
check the context bro, this ayah is talking about the faasiq from the group OF people and not the obedient believers.
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Exacty, it says many people are “faasiquun” from the group of people. The context of this ayah is evident.
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“Anyway I’m not disagreeing with Ken or Mark.”
Ken’s total depravity shows in his obsession with preaching to Muslims. According to him Islam is wrong, but he turns a blind eye to the heretic beliefs presented here by other Christians.
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Eric I appreciate how you try to look into the context of Biblical texts rather than just say things like “the Bible is corrupted” or “none of it makes sense” like some others do. I hope you continue to stay open minded like that.
And yes I agree that verse doesn’t necessarily mean that all humans are born with inherited sin from Adam, but I did want to highlight that there is an acknowledgement of human’s having a tendency to sin or disobey God’s commands, whether it’s talking about a group of people or all people. It’s like my question above about whether we would still be morally conscience or aware of certain things if they were not mentioned in scripture. If human beings are born pure then we wouldn’t need a God to guide us, we’d just naturally be good people and do good things, or even if God were to guide us and set commands we’d follow them easily because it would be in our pure nature to do so. But I do not think that is the case, world history from the beginning up til now is a testimony of that.
This leads to the next part about what is really the cause behind this sinful part of human nature. I agree with your first statement about man being a free moral agent and that we can become righteous by actions of getting closer to God. The second one I don’t get too much, if you could expand on it I’d appreciate it. But from what I’m getting, you’re saying Satan is the one behind our external sins. Like I mentioned before, I agree that evil and rebellion, and ultimately sin come from Satan but we can’t say “satan did it” or “satan caused me to do it” if we were to ever sin. A better thing to say is “Satan tempted me do it” but even then the responsibility is still with the individual. Every external action begins internally through the thoughts in our minds. If someone is killing, lying or committing any other sin, it begins in the mind first before they carry it out. An example is when Jesus says “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” (Matthew 5:27-28) and “Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them.” (Mark 7:15)
Jesus then later explains what he means: “For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and defile a person.” (Mark 7:21-23)
Jesus was tempted by Satan in the desert and being a free moral agent, he had a choice of whether to give in to Satan’s temptation or resist them. Whichever he chose, he would be responsible for it, not Satan. It is from our hearts that both evil and good thoughts arise and the book of Genesis is clear that this was a result of Adam and Eve’s decision to eat the forbidden fruit which revealed to them the “knowledge of good and evil”, something which we have inherited from them. That doesn’t mean we’ve inherited their sin and guilt, but I do believe we have inherited a sinful nature from them.
As a side note: From what I know Jews do not teach that Satan is the cause of an individual’s sin. Judaism doesn’t focus much on Satan at all, there’s a deeper focus on individual action and responsibility, and on a principle known as the evil inclination.
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“If human beings are born pure then we wouldn’t need a God to guide us, we’d just naturally be good people and do good things, or even if God were to guide us and set commands we’d follow them easily because it would be in our pure nature to do so.”
what does being born pure have to do with what one does later on in life? there is no guidance for the human baby because it is born pure. your own argument is supporting that the reason why babies don’t need guidance is because they don’t break commands.
because one cannot follow commands easily does not mean the nature is impure. these are two different things which have no connection.the question should be asked, did god create the human being to be perfect in everything? does god expect that the human can reach perfect standard when it is he who put weakness within the man?
“Every external action begins internally through the thoughts in our minds. If someone is killing, lying or committing any other sin, it begins in the mind first before they carry it out. An example is when Jesus says “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” (Matthew 5:27-28) and “Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them.” (Mark 7:15)
Jesus then later explains what he means: “For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and defile a person.” (Mark 7:21-23)
Jesus was tempted by Satan in the desert and being a free moral agent, he had a choice of whether to give in to Satan’s temptation or resist them. Whichever he chose, he would be responsible for it, not Satan. It is from our hearts that both evil and good thoughts arise and the book of Genesis is clear that this was a result of Adam and Eve’s decision to eat the forbidden fruit which revealed to them the “knowledge of good and evil”, something which we have inherited from them. That doesn’t mean we’ve inherited their sin and guilt, but I do believe we have inherited a sinful nature from them.”
you see what you are doing? does adultery, theft, murder, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance come from the womb or is the infant who is nursed thinking these things? if not, then it does not come from an infants heart.
adam was created directly by god. adam had no parents. jesus gets tempted and is born to a mother who was stained with original sin. jesus condemns himself with all those filthy thoughts. you have no proof that when jesus was alone he did not think of fornication, theft, immorality, lewdness, slander…
for a guy to list such thoughts must know of such thoughts at an experience and personal level.
but poor adam, a fresh and brand new creation and your god was unable to prevent him from freely choosing good. this is called a biased god.
no child has inherited adams guilt or adams deed. it makes no sense. it is like saying i raped a girl today , the action of rape went back and raped jesus on the cross.
there is no cause and effect , otherwise all rapists have raped the man god for past, present and future rapist acts.
if you can establish cause an effect for adams sins, then one can establish cause and effect on jesus too.
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Mr. Henry
You said;
Jesus then later explains what he means: “For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envyeir , slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and defile a person.” (Mark 7:21-23)
Jesus was tempted by Satan in the desert and being a free moral agent, he had a choice of whether to give in to Satan’s temptation or resist them. Whichever he chose, he would be responsible for it, not Satan. It is from our hearts that both evil and good thoughts arise and the book of Genesis is clear that this was a result of Adam and Eve’s decision to eat the forbidden fruit which revealed to them the “knowledge of good and evil”, something which we have inherited from them. That doesn’t mean we’ve inherited their sin and guilt, but I do believe we have inherited a sinful nature from them.
I say;
Thanks. You did differ from Mark and Ken Temple. They(Mark and Temple) arguments here is that humans inherited the guilt of Adams sin. Please scroll up and you will see clearly what I mean. I am glad, Mr. Henry, you have realized the untruth here, with regards to how absurd it will be when we are held guilty of what we did not do but Adam did and did not consult us.
If Adam were to consult us, so many people would have advice him not to eat what ever satan ask him to do but to obey God’s command. We see how children are disagreeing with their parents with regards to God. Prophet Abraham disagreed with his father and tribes against disobeying God. Prophet Mohammed disagreed with his uncle and family against disobeying God.
It continues today, were children will disagree with their parents against disobeying God. I am 100% sure, if God has let Adam consulted us, most of the worlds population would have disagreed with Adam for disobeying God.
So, case closed. Any Christians who believes and preaches that we are guilty of Adams sin is influence by satan to deflect our attention towards fighting satan’s sinful thoughts he(satan) puts into our minds, hearts etc. in order to direct us to follow him( Satan) and not to obey God’s command and do the right thing that our righteous nature(Godliness) to us to do. Jesus fasted, fell down to the ground and prayed to one and only God who is alone but not 3 persons with each person being a being because no person can be a person without being a being.
Jesus gave charity, preach and read the good news from God, performed rituals of serving only one God, asking God to forgive him(sincere repentance i.e. Our Father…….and forgive us our trespasses.) etc. to worship God and away from Satan and Muslims are doing all these to serve God and away from Satan.
Quran 35:6
Sahih International:
Indeed, Satan is an enemy to you; so take him as an enemy. He only invites his party to be among the companions of the Blaze.
One thing Jesus never did is to wait for his own blood to purify his heart or for a human being blood or for God’s blood to purify his heart, if God has blood is another case to reflect.
[Quran 2:168-169] O people, eat from the earth’s products all that is lawful and good, and do not follow the steps of Satan; he is your most ardent enemy. He only commands you to commit evil and vice, and to say about God what you do not know.
SINFUL NATURE, SINFUL THOUGHTS OR ACTIONS
What is nature? and what is thoughts? and what is action?
From our dialog above, a child(toddler) do not have thoughts to kill anyone or lust somebody’s wife or rape anyone and most children die in those stages and it means they do not inherit sinful thoughts or sinful nature from anyone or from Adam.
When you have sex with somebody’s wife, you are punished for the action not the nature or thoughts. You can think to have sext with somebody’s wife but your righteous nature or godliness thought will fight back and tell you that it is not morally right to do that, even if you do not believe in Jesus or Allah.
You had that thought but when the human arrived and your righteous inclination prevented you from having sex with her because you knew it is morally wrong and you did not do that. Will you be punished because of your thoughts? that satan influenced you? No. You will be rewarded by resisting that temptation.
Armed robbers will have thoughts of robbing a bank and made all preparation to attack, but will call of and not attack the bank because their righteous inclination has defeated their sinful inclination.
It is unfortunate, Christians will spend much time stressing on sinful nature/thoughts to make Jesus blood looks good then forget the other part of humans which is righteous/thoughts inclination that fights the bad inclination without even Jesus or Allah.
All human are godly but not sinful and it is only satan that influence us with sinful thoughts, nature etc. and we are responsible if we follow satan and implement the act. We are recommended, if we resist the bad thought and refuse to act for we are judged according to our acts and actions.
Thanks.
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“It is unfortunate, Christians will spend much time stressing on sinful nature/thoughts to make Jesus blood looks good then forget the other part of humans which is righteous/thoughts inclination that fights the bad inclination without even Jesus or Allah.”
we fight the thoughts because of Gods mercy. had God wanted to , he would’ve started us all in hell. think about it. it is easy for him. if God was not kind and merciful, we would all start off in hell doing evil things to each other. but God gave us his mercy of fighting the thought and ability to sin, God is not unfair. many people will grow up seeing their parents sin and fight. some of these children will be born in poor families in ghettos and they see nothing but sin, but the miracle here is that even after growing up seeing sin, the child grows up to turn away from it. why? why is that? why didn’t he rape, drink alchohol, date girls…? the temptation was there. so why did the child choose a different path?
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That is true. God’s mercy is for everyone, even those who do not believe in him like atheists. Some Atheists have godly or righteous inclination or inclination towards righteousness and will know through God’s mercy that, they do not have to kill anyone or steal someone’s belongings. Satan will tempt them with evil thoughts and they will use their inclination towards righteousness to fight back and win satan by God’s mercy even though they do not believe in God and have no guidance from any one.
Man is born as righteous, it is satan that tempt humans with sinful thoughts. No one is responsible for “nature” because he did not create “nature” but everyone is responsible for his own actions because he followed satan through the sinful thoughts that satan influenced him to act upon it.
God’s mercy is for everyone and not for Muslims and Christians alone. But one needs to believe in his creator and follow His law and commands for salvation. Blood is not necessary but God’s mercy.
Thanks.
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intellect, do you have a blog? if you don’t maybe you should make a blog on these topics
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a great idea!
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Thanks. I am always with computers. That is my job. To be monitoring networks. I do other things. Analysing and posting topics will be a challenge to me. If someone posts some thing like the above, I can comment 100 times while working.
Thanks.
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Ken Temple
If satan temps, he always temp with sinful thoughts or sinful “nature”. It is clear from the Bible, Jesus was tempted by satan, so according to you Jesus himself has sinful thought or sinful nature. If Jesus as God himself, or has God part in him(two natures) has sinful thoughts why would he(Jesus(God)) blame humans for the sinful thoughts(nature) he created and has, or himself possess?
If Jesus is to be worshiped as God-Man without dividing the natures as some Christians would like us to believe, then your God Himself has sinful nature/thoughts.
If that is the case, He(Jesus) needs someone to sacrifice himself for him because he(Jesus) as a whole has sinful nature or thought and cannot sacrifice himself but needs some one to sacrifice himself for him.
If you divide Jesus’s natures and separate the man part, then you worship complete 100% man, who is a persons and a being as well and you know you fall into idolatry in that instance.
Every 100% man/human being is a person as well as a being i.e. human being. If you separate Jesus’s natures, then you get 100% human being as Jesus and that is what people in Palestine saw 2000 years ago in Palestine because they did not see Jesus as God because God cannot be seen according to the Bible.
Jesus is man and not God because God is immortal and cannot be approached because He is pure and holy but Jesus was approached and stayed in a womb of a woman for some time. Jesus is not God but 100% man.
If something is not a person and a being, then he is not 100% human being. It is reality and the truth and anyone can say he does not believe what I say but that is the truth.
Jesus is a being i.e. human being as is seen in Palestine 2000 years ago and not God at all so worshiping him is great sin. If God warned us not to worship anything including man, then why will God turn Himself into a man and expect us to worship him? It is injustice by God to do that. Jesus is not a zombie but a human being and cannot be God because he(Jesus) was seen and clearly disqualified himself from being God.
If someone sees the truth and turned a blind eye and insists on following the religion of his forefathers is also an inclination towards sinfulness because the person has rejected the clear truth and instead followed satan who is advising him not to follow the truth.
Thanks.
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Ken Temple
I forgot to add. 100% human being is not a “nature” but a being i.e. human being. 100% God is not a “nature” but God. So saying Jesus has two natures is untruths because it is actually 2 beings that Jesus possess but not two natures.
To say 100% God is a “nature” is blaspheme. God is God but you cannot say God is a nature. God created all things including all natures so God cannot be called nature.
God do not die is God’s nature not to die and you cannot call God a nature but God has nature of not dying. Humans has nature of dying so God do not die.
If Jesus, as a whole possess human nature and God nature at the same time, then he must be able to switch like a switch box to give us the day of judgement like how he switched to his divine nature to forgive sins, raise the dead, walk on water etc. Jesus must able to switch and give us the end date or says he knows but will not give us. Jesus says he does not know and he is not divine.
Sorry, I do not intend to offend but to tell the truth with these critical analysis and it is truth but not offence. No offence in my analysis at all.
Thanks.
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According to the bible there are many texts that show that man is a sinner by nature, for example:
Genesis 6:
v 5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
v 11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
The Lord’s prayer proves that man needs to be daily forgiven for his sins, just as he needs daily sustenance for his body:
Luke 11:
3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
This shows that the sinful nature of man inevitably causes him to sin on a daily basis. Man cannot live without sinning because his nature is corrupted.
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and despite that man can be acceptable to God and be declared righteous by obeying the law – see Luke 1:6
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With the name of Allah the Gracious the Merciful
Madmanna, thanks for your contribution in the discussion.
You bring Gen 6:5 perhaps you did not read all interactions in comment section, but I have explained the text does not say human is inherently and always evil. Yetzer ra יֵצֶר רַע in Gen 6:5 literally “anadverse inclination”. The yetzer ra is not solely associated to what one would “normally” consider as sin or evil. Anything that we do for ourselves (“self preservation,” as opposed to Godly call) is “driven” by this inclination. This includes “normal” activities such as working for a living, building a shelter, seeking a mate, procreation, etc.
As well as there is an “adverse inclination” man also has a “favourable inclination”, the yetzer tov; יֵצֶר טוב. If we go back to Genesis 2:7 it uses Hebrew verb וַיִּיצֶר (vayyitser), and [He] formed, i.e., this verse describes God forming the first human being. Notice that the Hebrew verb, which has the root י-צ-ר (yod-tsadi-resh), is spelled here with two letters י (yod), a rather unusual spelling for this conjugation. Then, Genesis 2:19 opens with the Hebrew verb וַיִּצֶר (vayitser), and [He] formed, i.e., this verse describes God forming the land animals and fowl. The same Hebrew verb is spelled here with a single letter י(yod), which is the common spelling for this conjugation.
Notice that the Hebrew word for ‘inclination’, יֵצֶר (yetser), derives from the same root verb as the verbs used in Genesis 2:7&19, and it is even used with regard to humankind’s adverse inclination in Genesis 6:5 .
So it is wrong to believe that God deliberately created human being in a state of inherently evil and entangled in sin. Human posses two competing tendencies (good and bad). If man sin that is the work of Satan who prey on bad tendencies. Man however has moral freedom. Thus both good and bad tendency are logically necessary if man is to have free will granted by God.
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madamana
You said;
This shows that the sinful nature of man inevitably causes him to sin on a daily basis. Man cannot live without sinning because his nature is corrupted.
I say;
Who corrupted his nature?
Thanks.
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madmanna
You said;
The Lord’s prayer proves that man needs to be daily forgiven for his sins, just as he needs daily sustenance for his body:
I say;
But Jesus had already died for your sins. If you still needs forgiveness when you sin, then Jesus did not die for your sins. With regards to the above verse from the Lords prayer, it means Christians still needs forgiveness/repentance when the sin, so there is not use in the crucifixion of Jesus because nothing changed.
Muslims, Jews, Buddhists etc. have continuous repentance because no one has died for their sins. If Jesus had died for Christians sins and they keep repenting/asking for forgiveness, then it is the forgiveness/repentance that matters but not the death of Jesus Christ-his death does not matter.
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madmanna
You said;
Genesis 6:
v 5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
v 11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth
I say;
The above verse is wrong or it needs better interpretation. It means God is not merciful for creating only wickedness and evil of man to punish innocent man.
God is merciful to all His creations and He(God) created all human with freewill and righteous. The choice to good or evil is the fault of the one who chose either of them(Good or Bad). The wickedness of man of earth is for those who chose wickedness but not those who chose righteousness.
◄ Ezekiel 18:20 ►
New International Version
The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them
madmanna, the above verse from the Bible is talking about the wickedness and righteousness of man but not only wickedness.
Find someone to interpret the genesis verse for you because it contradicts the Ezekiel 18:20 that talks about the mercy of God to all mankind by allowing them to choose either the good or bad and be responsible from what they choose.
Even, Atheists who do not believe in God know how to choose good from evil through the mercy of God.
Thanks.
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don’t trust anything mad man says
do you know the word “sin” isn’t even mentioned in the genesis story? interesting isn’t it?
can you find anywhere that she said adam and eve were BORN defective?
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i was suppose to say , ” in the genesis story can you find any place where she said that humans were born defective…”
just watch the video and find the time line for me.
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christianity is a disease . the english language is christianties begotten and stained speech. we need to be careful understanding hebrew culture through this stained language which seek to corrupt hebrew ideas.
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“christianity is a disease . the english language is christianties begotten and stained speech. we need to be careful understanding hebrew culture through this stained language which seek to corrupt hebrew ideas.”
What a horrible thing to say!
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I agree Patrice. Disgusting.
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“The Lord’s prayer proves that man needs to be daily forgiven for his sins, just as he needs daily sustenance for his body:”
did the lords prayer say that roman torture instrument is required between god and man?
did it say blood seeping from human flesh is required between god and man?
does god need to drink blood for his sustenance in forgiving?
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christianity is a disease. i will say it a million times.
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mrsonic
Please do not behave like Sam Shamoun. Dialog is what matters, but insults. Insults is what we are fighting against. There are Muslims with wrong interpretation of Islam and the Quran and are doing all sorts of things, so dialog and stop insults.
Thanks.
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mrsonic what is your belief?
If you’re a Jew then you need to read up more about what your faith says on Christianity. Yes Jews by large don’t believe that Jesus is a prophet or anything else that Christians may say, but many great Jewish speakers and writers acknowledge that Christianity and Islam are part of God’s plan to bring humanity to the belief of the one God of Abraham. Some Jews also agree that Jesus was a great moral teacher and equate a lot of his teachers with a great Jew by the name of Hillel the Elder.
If you’re a Muslim then you need to also read up more about what the Quran especially says about Christians. Of course there are some parts that criticize Christians and their beliefs, but many other parts praise Christians and from what I’ve seen not one part of the Quran condemns the gospel.
Finally, one of your comments reeks of incomprehension all over. This part especially made me laugh: “the english language is christianties begotten and stained speech”. Basically, you just have a lot of reading to do if you can say something like that. Preferably read something that will actually teach and enlighten you, rather than encourage your ignorance.
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Thanks Intellect,
You said:
“I say;
Who corrupted his nature?”
I reply:
The corruption of the nature was the punishment of Adam and Eve’s sin. The perversion of the moment became a fixed attribute of their souls and it was passed down to all their progeny. I don’t know the mechanism of this change but it must be of God. Who else would have the power? Of course we are careful to qualify all statements of this kind with the proviso that God is not and could never be the author of sin.
You said:
“God is merciful to all His creations and He(God) created all human with freewill and righteous. The choice to good or evil is the fault of the one who chose either of them(Good or Bad). The wickedness of man of earth is for those who chose wickedness but not those who chose righteousness.”
I reply:
If this was the case we would expect that a universal flood because of the wickedness of humanity would be an impossibility. It would rather be the case that the world would be constantly improving and eventually all wickedness would vanish from the earth. If man is morally free it should only be a matter of time before paradise is restored on earth. Instead we see the opposite which proves that man is a sinner by nature.
Ezekiel 18 is describing a situation where the people are yo-yoing or swinging like a pendulum back and forth between goodness and evil. Those who retain the ability to repent will live but what does this life consist of? Is eternal life in view here? Hardly. There is no evidence that anyone can earn their ticket to paradise by works righteousness from this passage in my view. The people are in exile because of their wickedness in the first place although they seem to be complaining that they are suffering because of the sins of their forefathers. The clear teaching of the bible is that only someone who had never sinned could earn a place in heaven. If someone had never sinned he would never need to repent but the people of Israel had to constantly repent:
18 v 38 :”30Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.”
You said:
“I say;
But Jesus had already died for your sins. If you still needs forgiveness when you sin, then Jesus did not die for your sins.”
I reply:
Forgiveness takes on different forms. Justification and adoption are forms of forgiveness. These are once- for-all events. This forgiveness removes the wrath of God and changes our relationship to him to a filial one. Once Inside the filial relationship forgiveness takes on a filial form which needs to be renewed because we repeatedly sin against God our Father. The basis for both types of forgiveness is that Jesus is our mediator.
Thanks.
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madmanna
You said;
reply:
Forgiveness takes on different forms. Justification and adoption are forms of forgiveness. These are once- for-all events. This forgiveness removes the wrath of God and changes our relationship to him to a filial one. Once Inside the filial relationship forgiveness takes on a filial form which needs to be renewed because we repeatedly sin against God our Father. The basis for both types of forgiveness is that Jesus is our mediator.
I say;
If the once-for-all events forgiveness removes the wrath of God, then you can continue to sin like Christians of the types of Jimmy Swaggart, Pastor Eddie Lee Long etc. and go scot free and that is injustice to the victims of the rape. Remember, you said forgiveness removes the wrath of God and also mans sins is continuous.
It means no punishment for Christian because of the once-for-all events. It is injustice for the people of the world and that is why some Christians with this understanding boast and brag that they know for sure they are going to heaven and blame Muslims for saying InshaAllah(by God’s grace and Mercy) I will go to heaven.
They will form a crusade to kill and some will rape thinking the once-for-all events have saved them.
A prominent Christian friend here accused Muslims for not knowing they will go to heaven by saying InshaAllah by he knows for sure he and Christians will go to heaven, until I stopped him and ask him to provide me a prove by the pictures he snapped in heaven swimming with angels and also a ticked with God’s stamp that he will go to heaven.
In the filial relationship form of forgiveness, you had already guaranteed of being saved and if you are punished because of a sin you committed, then the once-for-all events forgiveness becomes useless and you become like Muslims or any one who sins and needs forgiveness because no one has died for his sins but you had someone died for your sins.
In the filial relationship form of forgiveness, if you continue to sin without punishment because of the guarantee of forgiveness you had in the once-for-all events, then it is unjust for you to continue to sin and hurt others without punishment.
In Islam, it does not matter if you are a Muslim, you will be punished for your sins. SINCERE,SINCRER, I mean it is only SINCERE repentance that is good for the forgiveness of sin.
There is no guarantee for someone has died for your sins and so you are responsible for your sin and when you sin you know there is punishment for that, and the punishment can be in the form of sickness, punishment in your grave or where you die etc. but the good news is that if you sincerely repent you will be forgiven and will not be punished. It depends on your sincerity and not blood.
If you will be punished in the filial forgiveness of Christianity, then Jesus death on the cross did not save anyone and it becomes useless but if at that stage no punishment for Christians, then the victims of Jimmy Swaggart and Pastor Eddie Lee Long did not have justice from God.
Do not tell me they are not Christians as Ken Temple will say because you admit Christians are not free from sins and their sins is continual according to Genesis.
Thanks.
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madmanna
You said;
I reply:
The corruption of the nature was the punishment of Adam and Eve’s sin. The perversion of the moment became a fixed attribute of their souls and it was passed down to all their progeny. I don’t know the mechanism of this change but it must be of God. Who else would have the power? Of course we are careful to qualify all statements of this kind with the proviso that God is not and could never be the author of sin.
I say;
Sin cannot be punished but the one who sinned can be punished because it is only a human being who can sin because of his free-will, choice, righteousness, wickedness, good, bad, etc. and finally SATAN. You and other Christians will not mention satan who influenced Adam to commit the sin.
Muslims keeps metioning satan, but Christians keeps mentioning sin-which cannot be punished. They will mention and blame “nature”, “sinful nature”, “sinful thoughts”, “wickedness” all of which are not substance and cannot be punished.
Can sin be punished? No. sin is not a substance. Can nature be punished? No.
The only ones who can be punished are Adam and Satan because they are beings and have consciousness and are substance.
madmanna, follow this carefully. Because of Adam’s sin, God corrupted all the nature of humanity. God corrupted our nature. Then we are not responsible for the corruption because God corrupted our nature because He is angry with Adam.
If I sin, that is not my responsibility because that is how God made me to be because of the anger He had for Adam. I cannot corrupt my nature for God is responsible with natures but not humans.
Everyone, including some Christians will agree with me that God is unjust to create my corrupt nature and punish me for that.
madmanna, then there is no righteous people and there is no prophets and no saints, no pious people and Moses, Jesus, Abraham, Mohammed etc. will all go to hell because our natute is corrupted by God and we continue to sin.
madmanna, if there are pious people, saints, people with righteousness and holy and noble people including atheist who are righteous, then it means God did not fixed us and our souls with corrupted nature.
satan tempted Adam to disobey God without consulting us and it will be unfair for God to punish us for that without letting Adam to consult us.
Prophet Abraham did not agree with his father and disagreed with him for disobeying God. Did God corrupted Abraham nature for that?
Prophet Mohamed disagreed with his uncle and his tribe from disobeying God, is it just for God to hold someone responsible who fights for what he wants?
The tradition continue today where children will disagree with their parents for disobeying God and the children will obey God.
Why was God angry with Adam? Because he disobeyed Him. Why will God hold someone responsible who is obeying him?
If God was sincere to have let Adam consult us before disobeying Him, I am 100% sure, all the worlds population would disagree with him(Adam) and advice him not to follow satan to disobey God but to follow God’s command like how children are doing today against their parents.
Is it just to for God to corrupt a child’s nature who was born by an idol worshiper but the child did not worship the idol but became Christian at birth?
What you said makes God the author of sin because He corrupted our nature to keep sinning without goodness, righteousness, and godliness.
In Islam the Quran condemns our actions and satan. We are to be punished when we sin except sincere repentance and God blame satan for disobeying Him without repenting and instead using our freewill and choice to influence us to choose evil instead of righteousness or godliness i.e. not to kill, not to rape etc. but to give charity, worship God, charity, fasting and Jesus Christ did all these and that is righteousness or godliness.
If we were fixed for only sin as you said we are corrupted without righteousness, Jesus would not have been righteous and perform all these godly and righteous rituals and ask us to do the same. Abraham, Moses and all prophets of God would not have been righteous.
Abraham is also from Adam, was Abraham corrupted beyond repair?
Thanks.
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“We are to be punished when we sin except sincere repentance”
How does one repent sincerely in your theology, Intellect?
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madmanna
You said;
Ezekiel 18 is describing a situation where the people are yo-yoing or swinging like a pendulum back and forth between goodness and evil. Those who retain the ability to repent will live but what does this life consist of? Is eternal life in view here? Hardly. There is no evidence that anyone can earn their ticket to paradise by works righteousness from this passage in my view. The people are in exile because of their wickedness in the first place although they seem to be complaining that they are suffering because of the sins of their forefathers. The clear teaching of the bible is that only someone who had never sinned could earn a place in heaven. If someone had never sinned he would never need to repent but the people of Israel had to constantly repent:
18 v 38 :”30Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.”
I say;
But you said God corrupted our nature and we sin continuously, including you Christians. You said the Bible teaches only someone who had never sinned could earn a place in heaven and if that is the case all the followers of Moses, Abraham, Noah and all prophets of God who followed God’s commands and obey God will go to hell because of some sins they had done, especially those who do not know that Jesus died for their sins.
Is it not wicked for God not to tell them Jesus is the only person to die for their sins and then put them(followers of Moses, Abraham, Joseph, Noah etc.) and all prophets of God to hell? Is it not unfair treatment by God? because these prophets and their followers never believed Jesus died for their sins?
There is no any clear passage from the whole Bible that Moses and his people of Abraham believed it is only Jesus who will die for their sins.
Christian apologist accept there is no such evidence, so if we follow your believe all people will be condemned to hell because of some sin they committed.
OUR SALVATION DEPENDS ON WORSHIPING OF ONLY ONE GOD ALONE IN TRUTH. FROM THE TIME OF ABRAHAM TO MOSES THE JEWS DO NOT KNOW ANY TRINITY OR MAN WILL SAVE THEM-Rabbi Tovia
THEY WILL BE SAVED WITHOUT KNOWING CHRIST-Dr. Laing Graig.
Conclusion: People are saved without Jesus because they do not know who the heck Jesus was. So Jesus is not the way to salvation.
Babies and toddlers never sinned to anyone and their Jewish parents never sacrificed anything for them and so they will go to heaven. God Mercy will save anyone who strive to worship Him and sincerely repent. We have pious, righteous people, saints, God fearing and God will not let them down and throw them into hell fire because of some sins, even thought they sincerely repented.
You said;
I reply:
If this was the case we would expect that a universal flood because of the wickedness of humanity would be an impossibility. It would rather be the case that the world would be constantly improving and eventually all wickedness would vanish from the earth. If man is morally free it should only be a matter of time before paradise is restored on earth. Instead we see the opposite which proves that man is a sinner by nature.
I say;
Have never seen a person fasting, praying like Jesus? giving charity, helping others? donating food and money to others? striving to resist satan temptations? etc. Are all these not righteousness? Godliness? Good? etc.
If they are righteousness, then God did not corrupt our nature. If you do not call these actions as righteous, then you need a medical treatment I am sorry to say.
Thanks.
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Mark
You said;
“We are to be punished when we sin except sincere repentance”
How does one repent sincerely in your theology, Intellect?
I say;
It is simple. If you steal someone’s belongings and realized it is a mistake and either send it back to him or if you do not have it with you and just inform him and ask for forgiveness from him and from God and try not to steal anything again, then your repentance is sincere.
I have friends who have changed from what they used to be and now they do not do what they used to do i.e. some sins. That is sincere. Come on you can do it. You have to strive(Jihad) and resist satan’s temptations.
Do you think satan, after influencing our Adam and Eve is no more? satan is pretty much alive and doing to every human being what he did to Adam and Eve. We humans have righteousness, godliness, in us because we knew raping someone’s wife is not good through God’s mercy upon all of us, even if we do not believe in him can fight the sinful thought influenced by satan.
We have pious people, saints, holy people, prophets and ordinary people who have righteousness and godliness in us to fight the evil thoughts that is influence by satan and striving to fight it makes one more righteous and Godly. Humans are not corrupted by God but it is our freewill and choice with the influence of satan that makes us choose right or wrong, sin or righteousness etc.
We are responsible for what we choose but not responsible for what Adam chose because “nature” or “sinful nature” is not responsible for disobeying God because it not a substance but Adam and satan as substance and beings with consciousness are responsible for their sins of disobeying God but not us or “our nature”.
We are only responsible now if we decide to follow satan and do sin. May God forgive us all and prevents us from doing sins. Ameen
Adams sins is past and is for him alone and his wife and God forgave them and they will go to heaven. Why will they go to heaven and we will go to hell for what they did?
Adam and Eve are prophets and will go to heaven. Adam and Eve will not go to hell.
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
Did I not charge you, O children of Adam! that you should not serve the Shaitan? Surely he is your open enemy, And that you should serve Me; this is the right way. (Quran: 36:60-61)
—————————-
O children of Adam! let not the Shaitan cause you to fall into affliction as he expelled your parents from the garden, pulling off from them both their clothing that he might show them their evil inclinations, he surely sees you, he as well as his host, from whence you cannot see them… (Quran:7:27)
Thanks.
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“The corruption of the nature was the punishment of Adam and Eve’s sin.”
very kind and fair isn’t it for a god to PUNISH innocent foetuses with “corruption of nature” for sins of adam and eve, isn’t it?
this god you worship created you as an easily corruptible creature and then requires you to use your own human nature to repent, feel guilt, have faith etc
tell you god that you need to turn back to your human nature regardless of whether you are stained or not.
” The perversion of the moment became a fixed attribute of their souls”
god is the creator of every single soul so by this logic god is the one who created the “fixed attribute” on the foetus. it is your god who is guilty for creating a distance between himself and unborn foetus.
” and it was passed down to all their progeny. ”
but he kept the stain in the boat. why was that? and that defective stain, which god created, had righteousness init, how come? god butchered everybody, but let infection remain on the boat so that he could come down and get pierced? what?
“If this was the case we would expect that a universal flood because of the wickedness of humanity would be an impossibility. ”
we would’ve started off in hell if “humanity was wicked” did you even check the video i sent to you, or did you ignore it? god would’ve killed of noah too. he would not let any stain in the boat. god would have started creation afresh.
“It would rather be the case that the world would be constantly improving and eventually all wickedness would vanish from the earth. If man is morally free it should only be a matter of time before paradise is restored on earth. Instead we see the opposite which proves that man is a sinner by nature.”
we would have all started off in hell. there would be no gift like taste, touch, smell…
there would be no mercy like tasting fruits.
there would be no forgiveness between individuals
“Ezekiel 18 is describing a situation where the people are yo-yoing or swinging like a pendulum back and forth between goodness and evil. Those who retain the ability to repent will live but what does this life consist of? Is eternal life in view here? Hardly. There is no evidence that anyone can earn their ticket to paradise by works righteousness from this passage in my view.”
why not? if god makes the moral laws, why can’t he make salvation doable through works? if works go back to him and he owns them and he creations good actions for hell and heaven, then why can’t he make salvation doable through works? is a man god myth and bloody flesh opening the only option left for this god? is a bloody human sacrifice the closest thing to this gods heart?
”
Forgiveness takes on different forms. Justification and adoption are forms of forgiveness. These are once- for-all events. This forgiveness removes the wrath of God and changes our relationship to him to a filial one. Once Inside the filial relationship forgiveness takes on a filial form which needs to be renewed because we repeatedly sin against God our Father. The basis for both types of forgiveness is that Jesus is our mediator.”
so you sin from mon-fri and you think that your penalty has already been paid for?
so you hide under jesus’ creation finite blood and human “sacrifice” which was temporary weekend one and you really think that your past, present and future sinful actions have been cleared? what kind of evil is this? you have a mortgage problem and i drive a nail into an innocent 3 year old for your mortgage? now you can go on celebrating my nailing of the 3 year old?
you repeatedly sin and you repeatedly tell yourself that the penalty has been cleared. this is a disgusting system which is called corruption. no responsibility because god allegedly moved sin in created time and bathed himself in it …
who CREATED the acts of the actor?
who?
who created blood and flesh?
who created death?
who owns everything
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IF GOD CREATED THE MORAL LAWS WHY CANT HE MAKE SALVATION DOABLE THROUGH ACTS OF GOOD????
IF ALL ACTS GO BACK TO GOD AND HE OWNS EVERYTHING AND ONE DOES GOOD WITH THE THOUGHT THAT GOD OWNS EVERYTHING, THEN WHERE IS THE BOAST???
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“Do you think satan, after influencing our Adam and Eve is no more? satan is pretty much alive and doing to every human being what he did to Adam and Eve. We humans have righteousness, godliness, in us because we knew raping someone’s wife is not good through God’s mercy upon all of us, even if we do not believe in him can fight the sinful thought influenced by satan.”
what i don’t understand is that how is it that god places an evil tempter called satan who NEVER repents , but the one who does repent , god says “not good enough”???
satan is released into the earth and does his tempting and human tries to fight the temptation, but god says ” not good enough” ?
fair , kind and loving god? not biased in favour of human sacrificial ritual?
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Intellect,
Have you committed a sin today that you have also previously committed, e.g. anger, lust, hatred…?
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Mark
You said;
Have you committed a sin today that you have also previously committed, e.g. anger, lust, hatred…?
I say;
I did not commit lust because I have the wife I love very much and I swear by Allah many ladies have come for me to sleep with them and I did not. Allah is my witness if I am lying. I also had so many chances and opportunity to have sex with ladies and I refused.
I did not remember the time I stole something from someone. I am still not perfect and striving to be more righteous. I am not a prophet, pious, or saint but just ordinary person who see the beauty of the world watching TV and listening to music etc. and attending to weddings in chapels or churches for my Christian friend s and relations.
Anger and hate are not sin except you do it in a wrong way.
God Himself hate aggressors and God is angry with the people of lot. If I am walking and somebody slaps me without any reason, of cause, I am going to be angry with him and will not turn the other check but defend myself. You will be angry if someone slaps you and you will not turn the other check to follow Jesus command. Will you?
That Jesus’s command of turning the other check is not from him but the gospel writers to inserted it to let Jesus look good. It turned out to be a bad command and Christians will not follow.
God hate what satan is doing and God hate those who follow satan i.e. their actions which is sin. God cannot punish sin itself because sin is not a substance and God cannot punish “sinful nature” or “nature” or “sinful thought” because they are all not substance but the substance that committed the action of sin is man or satan and each is responsible for his action.
If I do not rape someone how can God punish me for rape? If Abraham oppose his father for disobeying God and now children are opposing their fathers for disobeying God, how can God hold them responsible for Adam disobeying Him without consulting them?
It will be injustice for God to corrupt our nature for Adams disobedience to him and Adam and Eve will go to heaven because they are prophets and pious despite disobeying God.
Those who say anyone who sins cannot enter heaven are liars. Adam sinned. Is he going to hell? Moses killed someone. Is Moses going to hell?
Thanks.
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Ken, Mark and madmanna
SINFUL NATURE, CORRUPTED MAN.
Those saying God has corrupted our nature must beware. They are blaspheming God because God did not corrupt our nature but we have choice and freewill and can either choose good or bad.
Adam had a choice of choosing what God commanded him and what satan ask him to do before committing any sin. Isn’t it?
So, the choice and freewill are there in Adams as a creation without even sinning. We humans still have the freewill and choice today to choose from evil or good like how Adam had and satan is tempting all of us daily like how he tempted Adam and Jesus was tempted, Moses was tempted and all the prophets were tempted.
Nothing has changed since Adam and satan encounter or after Adam committed the sin except we are brought to earth as temporal place strive and follow God but not satan and to be righteous and will go back to heaven with Adam and Eve.
Those who follow satan and willingly rejects the truth and continue to do wicked without sincere repentance are the followers of satan and will be punished in hell fire, together with satan.
Man is not corrupted because Quran tells us there are righteous and pious Bible like Mary, the mother or Jesus, her parents and other families. They do not do sin but worship God. But you Christians call the mother of your God as corrupted woman.
If Mary and her family can be righteous, other families can be righteous and therefore man is not corrupted by sinful nature for continues sin.
———————————————–
MARY
Her Birth.
“When the wife of Imran said:
‘O my Lord! I have vowed to You what is in my womb [my child] to be dedicated to Your services, so accept this [my vow] from me. Verily, All-Hearer, the All-Knowing.’ Then we she delivered her she said:
‘O my Lord! I have delivered a female child’ – and Allah knew better what she delivered – ‘And the male is not like the female, and I have named her Maryam and I seek refuge with You for her and for her offspring from Satan, the outcast.’ ” (Quran 3:35-36)
“So her Lord accepted her [Maryam] with good acceptance.” (Quran 3:37).
Her Upbringing.
Quran verses 3:37 continue ..
“So her Lord accepted her with good acceptance. He made her grow in a good manner and put her under the care of Zachariya. Every time he entered Al-Mihrab (the praying place) to visit her, he found her supplied with sustenance [food]. He said:
‘O Maryam! From where have you got this?’ She said:
‘This is from Allah. Verily, Allah provides sustenance who He wills, without limit.’ ”
“And (remember) when the angels said: ‘O Maryam (Mary)! Verily, Allah (God) has chosen you, purified you (from polytheism and disbelief), and chosen you above the women of the world (of her lifetime).’ ”
———————————
If you call Adam corrupted and any man corrupted because of him, then the mother of your God and her family are corrupted and your God is also corrupted because he came from corrupted man or at least he stayed in a corrupted womb.
THE REASON WHY CHRISTIANS ARE SAYING MAN IS CORRUPTED.
Christian: You see my dear Muslim brother, man is corrupted because we keep killing each other and our situation are becoming worse with wars and hatred and anger and not obeying God. God has sent prophets but we are still the same wicked in our nature.
Muslim: Who are these haters and thugs? Religious people like Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Christians, Jews etc.
Is it “sinful nature” or our choice to choose bad from Good?
Islamic isis killing everyone, elshabab, crusaders, Christian Zionists and Jewish Zionist massacring people right now in the name of religion, Buddhis killing Muslims in Myanmar, Hindus Killing Muslims in India, Boko Haram killing Christians.
There are righteous people who do not support these thugs. So if some people choose to go to war the righteous people will protest against unnecessary war.
Iraq has nothing to do with September 11, but the Christian evangelicals supported the war in Iraq and now they do not want the peace deal with Iran but they want war. They will support Donald Trump to ban all Muslims for their hatred towards all Muslims knowing very well that not all Muslim support what others are doing. Donald Trump is front runner because of the hatred he has for all Muslims and evangelical Christians will vote for him
Those who say God corrupted man with “sinful nature” are corrupted and sinful by themselves with their choice to hate the whole population.
Thanks.
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“You said;
Have you committed a sin today that you have also previously committed, e.g. anger, lust, hatred…?”
today it is …have you committed…”
in jewish texts ….what have you DONE to prevent yourself from…”
in quranic text
“That day shall We set a seal upon their mouths but their hands will speak to Us, and their feet bear witness to all that they did.” [Sûrah Yasîn: 65]
what did you do to prevent yourself? or did you think that you can sit down and tell yourself that your penalty has been taken and you can continue to commit while telling yourself in your heart your sin has already been paid for?
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Mark, Ken, madmanna
NATURE
Why are you possessed or obsessed with “nature”? Why are Christians obsessed with “nature” to confuse us?
Divine nature and human nature possessed by a single being who is 100% God and 100% man. Confusion.
Man was condemned with “sinful nature”. Confusion.
na·ture
/ˈnāCHər/
noun
noun: nature; plural noun: natures
1. the phenomena of the physical world collectively, including plants, animals, the landscape, and other features and products of the earth, as opposed to humans or human creations.
“the breathtaking beauty of nature”
synonyms: the natural world, Mother Nature, Mother Earth, the environment; wildlife, flora and fauna, the countryside; the universe, the cosmos
“the beauty of nature”
2. the basic or inherent features of something, especially when seen as characteristic of it.
“helping them to realize the nature of their problems”
synonyms: essence, inherent/basic/essential qualities, inherent/basic/essential features, character, complexion
“such crimes are, by their very nature, difficult to hide”
•kind, sort, type, variety, category, ilk, class, species, genre, style, cast, order, kidney, mold, stamp, stripe
“experiments of a similar nature”
Source: https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=FjKoVtS3OIqN8Qfz6ZX4Bw&gws_rd=ssl#q=what+is+nature
——————————————————-
So, nature means characteristics, features, essence etc. Therefore “sinful nature”. Are we responsible for our features? essence? Did we create our features? or nature? No. So why must we be held responsible for that? Is it an injustice?
Lion has no food unless it kills an antelope or zebra. Will God hold lion responsible for eating antelope as its inherent nature? No. That is how God created it(Lion) so no sin and no punishment and no day of judgement. If God created us with sinful nature and continuous sin, then it will be unjust to hold us responsible for how we are created.
Besides, We are humans and not lion and so have choice, freewill, intellect which lion does not have. We can choose from bad and evil and we can obey God or disobey God but Angels always obey God.
We are only responsible for what we choose but not responsible for our nature which someone is responsible i.e. God can create nature but we cannot create our nature but we create our actions i.e. raping someone’s wife.
So we are responsible for our bad actions which is sin by the way and are responsible for our good action which is righteousness. To say God created us with only sinful nature but not righteousness nature is a big lie and any religion that preaches that according to my friend Mr. Henry is a religion that tells lies.
Perform rituals of fasting, charity, falling down to the ground and pray to the only one(not three persons) God of Abraham, read God’s words, help others, forgive others etc. and Jesus did all these and Muslims are doing the same to help them to strive and fight satan’s temptations from the sinful thoughts.
Blood cannot help in this situation. Sitting down and bragging that your sins has been forgiven by the cross will not prevent satan from tempting you to commit sin and hurt others because he did tempt Jesus and all prophets and continue to tempt all humans at all time and right now.
If you see a clear truth from another religion, do not let satan tempt you to stay in your religion but quickly accept the religion that is truthful. One of the satan’s temptations is to prevent a person from accepting a clear truth but to lie clearly like Nabeel Quraish.
If the blood of Jesus had already saved those who believed it saved them, why is satan continue to tempt them to sin like Adam? and like anyone else?
With regards to Jesus 2 natures, we can also have some divine qualities or natures like mercy, forgiveness, creating cars, aircrafts etc. So Jesus is not the only one who has both divine and human natures we also have some divine natures.
Jesus has some divine natures we do not have? Well he does not have a divine nature to know the end date on earth while on earth he exercised some divine natures like raising the dead and forgiving sins so he must have been able to tell us the date to be complete divine but he said he did not know. So Jesus is not God but was created by God without father.
100% God is equal to one being.
100% man is equal to one being.
So Jesus is 2 beings not 2 natures because nature is not a being or substance and 2 beings in 1 being is impossible. Trinitarians must watch out. The Quran has warned “Do not say 3” when calling God i.e. 3 in 1, 3 persons, 3 Gods, 3 beings, Trinity etc. desist, it is better for you.
Thanks.
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“Did we create our features? or nature? No. So why must we be held responsible for that?”
And yet time and time again you go on about how evangelical Christians are responsible for the actions of America and the west in the Middle East.
Either you don’t actually believe what you wrote above, or you’re completely inconsistent regularly. Both options are bad for you.
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Mark
The evangelical Christians action is to support Donald Trump to Ban all Muslims including US citizens from entering US. So the evangelical Christians action is to support and they created the support of Trump to do that.
Good Christians have come out to oppose Donald Trump. It comes back to the same freewill and choice that Adam had and we also have the same. We were created with freewill, choice, good and bad just like Adam but we did not inherit it from him.
God is fair, He did not create us with corruption and wickedness but with choice to either choose good or bad and anyone in his right mind knows he must not rape some ones wife.
Bad Christians bombed a Mosque in North America and Good Christians contributed money to repair the damage.
Bad Muslims elshabad in Kenya want to kill Christians in a bus. Good Muslims prevented the bad Muslim elshabab from killing their fellow Christians in the Bus.
Bad Christians destroyed a Mosque in the US and Good Christians opened their Church for the Moslems to pray.
Bad Christians support the US war in the middle east, God Christians demonstrate against it.
Bad isis kill Christians in Iraq, God Muslims cried on TV for the killings and God Muslims fight isis.
So it is God and Bad and Choice.
We do not create our features and have no responsibility for what it does but the bad Christians and bad Muslims support of bad killings means they created the support of bad killings and are responsible.
Thanks.
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1. god made easily corruptible and law breaking people
2. alcohol is abused in christian societies
3. jesus and his father did not forbid alcohol
both of these individuals know the evils from alcohol and the easily corruptible state of the human, why then wasn’t it forbidden?
this is something which i was thinking about recently. paul, yhwh, and jesus, the trinity which do not forbid alcohol to an easily corruptible human nature
these substances go straight to the head
and since the human is easily corruptible creature who has
the christians quote :
heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly
and alcohol goes straight to the head jc. didn’t you know that? they help carry out the nature god gave to the humans, didn’t you know that? i don’t think jesus or christian author really knew about what food did to the brain.
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mrsonic
Quran
7:33
Sahih International
Say, “My Lord has only forbidden immoralities – what is apparent of them and what is concealed – and sin, and oppression without right, and that you associate with Allah that for which He has not sent down authority, and that you say about Allah that which you do not know.”
2:219
Sahih International
They ask you about wine and gambling. Say, “In them is great sin and [yet, some] benefit for people. But their sin is greater than their benefit.” And they ask you what they should spend. Say, “The excess [beyond needs].” Thus Allah makes clear to you the verses [of revelation] that you might give thought
O you who believe, intoxicants, gambling, altars and arrows of chance are afflictions which are the work of the devil; you shall stay away from him, that you may succeed.
————————————-
When man is intoxicated, satan can easily influence the sinful thought/nature to act badly. Yes, the 3 persons God must have abolished alcohol and warn us how it is easy for the corruptible nature of man will be more corruptible to act sin against God.
Slavery was also gradually abolished.
The Only One and Alone God of Abraham not the (3 persons God) in the Quran has warned us(man) against the dangers of alcohol and finally abolished it in stages and it becomes sin itself to drink alcohol or any drug if it is not for medicinal purpose.
Dangers of alcohol to man is no secret so I will not waste my time on that. But one can check this link.
http://rethinkingdrinking.niaaa.nih.gov/How-much-is-too-much/Whats-the-harm/What-Are-The-Risks.aspx
The Quran has also prohibited other foods that will be bad for man. Quran regulates how one can eat so that he does not eat too much and becomes lazy.
I do not blame Jesus Christ, because he clearly said he did not finish his job, but someone will come to continue. Prophets Mohammed fits the balance by bringing all this finishing touches to conclude Jesus mission but Christians will never agree.
Satan is bad. He can influence in so many ways.
Thanks.
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2. alcohol is abused in christian societies
3. jesus and his father did not forbid alcohol
mrsonic as Intellect has mentioned, in the Quran alcohol was gradually forbidden in stages. It initially started off as ok for Muslims to drink, then they were told to not drink before praying, then finally they were told to not drink at all as the risks outweigh the benefits. Now “christian” societies as you like to call them, in general do not believe in the revelation of the Quran, therefore they would still be in the first state of where the Quran initially allowed drinking of alcohol.
Alcohol is abused by individuals not society, and many laws have been put in place to regulate consumption such as increasing the legal age of drinking, raising the price of alcohol and more.
The many issues you have with Christianity are rather unfounded to be honest.
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in privacy of ones home there are no regulation or divine revelation forbidding christian to not drink alcohol
the christian is one who believes god created corrupted human nature
the christian usually quotes
the christians quote :
heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly
didn’t the christian god know that alcohol goes straight up to the head and can increase the above thoughts?
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if a christian alcoholic stays far away from all types of alcohol, then does that mean he has agreed with the quran against his god in flesh, yhwh and paul?
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used to be an*
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Heart is an organ but not a being or a person. Evil thought is not a substance but human thinking. Sinful nature is not a being or a person, sin is not a substance but an act or action of a man.
Christian say God came down to conquer sin. Sin is nothing to be conquered or die for because it is not a substance but an action of someone.
Did God die for Christians actions of sin? No Christians are doing the actions of sins with their pastors raping children like anyone else. So God death did not prevent them from their actions of rape, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.
So, what dying for your sins are you talking about? Purification of your hear? God created your heart and if he needs to purify it, does He need to come down? No He can purify it from above.
You need to purify your own heart by doing what Jesus did to avoid satan temptations to do bad and by PERFORMING RITUALS OF FASTING, PROSTRATING TO THE ONE GOD OF ABRAHAM, GIVING CHARITY, FEEDING THE POOR, READING GOD’S WORDS, FORGIVING OTHERS etc. continuously to go closer to God and avoid satan.
God created your heart and if He needs to purify it, He can purify it wherever He is, without coming down. It is your duty to purify your heart and do righteous deed as best as you can because you cannot be PERFECT OR PURE LIKE GOD, never and in fact it is sin to say you cannot sin and will be perfect and pure like God.
You do not have to be perfect like God before you can go to heaven. God’s mercy sends us to heaven and through righteousness as we strive to do righteous than sinful acts.
Thanks.
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according to mark’s jesus :
heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly
interesting
i quote :
Jesus also says to “love God with all your heart” which seems impossible if the heart can will only evil choices and is desperately wicked in everyone at all times.
now that is double interesting .
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Ken Temple
Watch Imam John (Yahya) Ederer who has memorised the Quran and some hadiths lecturing Faith, sin, heart, sinful thoughts, righteousness, wrong, good, satan, etc.
Compare this white convert who knows his religion to the lies of Nabeel Quraish, Sam Shamoun and David Wood who cannot speak Arabic and do not have qualification in Islam.
Thanks.
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Ken Temple
Adam is a prophet of God and he will go to heaven because he did repent and his wife repented and God forgave them. They guided their off-springs (us) to worship only one true God, the creator of everything and to not follow satan through our desires, sinful thoughts from our hearts but to choose good from bad etc.
How can we be guilty from the sin of Adam if he is chilling out in heaven? There is no proof the blood of Jesus Christ save Adam, so that we continue to sin and be saved by the blood of Jesus Christ(No proof). We are guilty from our sins but not someone’s(Adam and his wife).
If we are all guilty of Adam’s sin, then he should have been in hell by now and may God forbid it never happened. If Adam will be back to paradise, then he did repented and God forgave him without blood sacrifice. For sure Adam did not believed Jesus Christ died for his sins or he(Christ) is his personal saviour.
Thanks.
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Ken Temple
Purification of the heart in Islam is better to perform rituals to help yourself than to sit down for the blood of Jesus.
Some Christians after believing Jesus died to purify their heart still hate people because the other is beautiful, wealthy, etc. Where is the purification of the heart here?
Thanks.
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