For generations, theologians have debated this very complex and multifaceted issue. These guys, though, think they figured it out in a couple seconds. I have only one problem with their conclusion. 1 Timothy 6:16 sums it up perfectly for me:
God is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords. It is he alone who has immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see; to him be honour and eternal dominion. Amen.
Whatever JC was he surely was not immortal (we are told he died) nor never seen by men (he lead a high visibility life).
Ergo…..(you fill in the conclusion).
Categories: Bible, Christianity, God
Blogging Theology 
“Whatever JC was he surely was not immortal (we are told he died) nor never seen by men (he lead a high visibility life).”
the flesh died but the ghost part was overpowered by invisible satan for 3 days and 3 nights. so like greek gods the two were battling it out. bad news for christians, they still have to die and are guaranteed death.
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Muslims and christians worship the same God, however their understanding of God is vastly different. Muslims understanding of God is the same as Yahweh in the OT, One and Only. Infact orthodox jews have no problem accepting Allah as Yahweh of the OT. Jews do not regard Muslims as idolartors and they can enter a mosque, because it is not a place of idolatry. Orthodox jews are not allowed to enter churches, as they regard the trinity as idolatry. I was really amazed when I was told this by my jewish friends.
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So Ken you are wrong. The ones who have studied the OT in great depth, the rabbis are willing to accept Allah as the same as Yahweh of the OT, but will never accept your triune god as Yahweh of the OT.
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Visually the video really sucks
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Christians worship the triune God of Scriptures who, “In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe”.
Muslims worship the allah of the quran, who is not triune, is not the Father, does not have a son, and who is Unitarian monad.
Yup I think its safe to say we worship two very different Gods.
Oh and Paul before you ask “Who wrote Hebrews” my answer Does not matter as I focus on the Word of God who is Christ and not the man who wrote about him.
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Did you not watch the video and my comments on it? The bible is clear that God is immortal – Jesus died etc. Whoever Jesus was he was not God, agreed?
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LOL Jesus died and Muslims stop and don’t finish the story. Paul what happened to Jesus after three days?
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So did you watch the video or not? The article I posted is about that and my comments.
Do you agree with the Bible that God is immortal? Yes or no?
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Thats not an answer to my question Paul, what happened to Jesus after three days?
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But you haven’t answered my question dude. Your question is off topic.
If you are not a troll you will address the issues raised in my post. Now do you agree with the bible that God is immortal?
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LOL My question is right on topic, you claim since Jesus died that he is not “immortal” I asked you what happened to Jesus after three days, or in another way is Jesus still dead?
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The triune God is not one “He”, or are they?
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Actually Burhan I can refer to my God with the male pronoun “HE”, its you Tawheedi Muslims who can not refer to allah using the Male pronoun since HE implies gender and since there is nothing like allah. .So please stop referring to allah as a “He”
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Are you going to address the point of my post? Or are you just a troll?
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Paul i’m not a troll I asked you a simple question that NO Muslim seems capable of answering. Maybe you can be the first. What happened to Jesus after three days?
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He was raised to God in heaven.
Now answer my question: do you agree with the bible that God is immortal?
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So he is still alive then and in his heavenly place were he came from. Ok so Jesus is immortal then. Since before he was Jesus he existed as the eternal word of God, and after he became Jesus he existed as the eternal word of God in human flesh. After Jesus who was the incarnate eternal word of God died on the cross, he rose from the dead (Something your prophet could not and did not do) and returned to his position from where he came from eternity. YUP GOD is Immortal.
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If God is immortal (ie does not die) then Jesus cannot be God because he is mortal (he either died or will die). Im glad to see that you do not believe Jesus is God 🙂
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What a very limited view of the word immortal. So immortal does not mean to have existed for forever?
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Immortal means does not die agreed?
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If by death you mean your limited and primitive atheist definition of death. Then no I don’t. If by death you mean a more robust and broader supernatural believing definition of the word die or death, then yes I do.
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Robust and broader Lol. So you finally admit you believe God died on the cross. I do not. If God died who was running the universe? The Bible days God does not die in 1Tim. He is eternal, immortal he is not like mortal men who die.
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No I do not agree with your limited and primitive definition of the word Immortal, as well as I don’t believe in your limited and primitive view of the word Die or Death. I propose the word Immortal has a wider range then simply does not die. Lives forever, from eternity being a few. So Jesus is from eternity, before he was Jesus he was the eternal word of God, the logos the Memra of the Lord, his Shekina, the Angel of the Lord. He existed as in the form of the incarnate Jesus, who died on the cross and rose from the dead on third day and returned to the place he came from since eternity. Where he will rein for all eternity. That is a fuller definition of immortal. Don’t you agree?
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No. Answer me this: did God die on the cross, yes or no?
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My dictionary says of immortal: ‘Not mortal, not liable or subject to death.’ Jesus was mortal. God is not. It’s quite simple.,
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” I propose the word Immortal has a wider range then simply does not die. Lives forever, from eternity being a few. So Jesus is from eternity, before he was Jesus he was the eternal word of God, the logos the Memra of the Lord, his Shekina, the Angel of the Lord. He existed as in the form of the incarnate Jesus, who died on the cross and rose from the dead on third day and returned to the place he came from since eternity. Where he will rein for all eternity. That is a fuller definition of immortal. Don’t you agree?”
so invisible god becomes visible flesh body
invisible ———- visible
powerful ——– weak
god becomes weak in his invisible nature
so did this weak god get OVERPOWERED BY DEATH
was DEATH STRONGER THAN your god?
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“If by death you mean your limited and primitive atheist definition of death. Then no I don’t. If by death you mean a more robust and broader supernatural believing definition of the word die or death, then yes I do.”
by death one means LOSING life. did death take control of jesus’ human person and overtake his life?
or did the ghost in jesus hand jesus’ flesh to death?
or did death over power the ghost in jesus and take over his flesh
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Is “your” triune God one “He” or three “He’s”?
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why did god wear a human body with male private parts ? didn’t your god become male ?
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“In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe”.
do you have any proof that jebus appeared to the jews as a human figure at sinai?
did the jews feel, touch, smell and taste jesus krist?
did jesus krist feel, touch and smell the jews?
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Hmm its not letting me reply to your comment on your dictionary. But the only thing you have done is proven that you have a very limited, atheist definition of immortal.
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My definition is the biblical one. Man is mortal because he is subject to death. God is eternal immortal and not subject to death. It’s not at all difficult to grasp dude.
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Paul so death means to cease to exist?
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cease to exist? what are you talking about ?
when your god entered from invisible spirit to flesh body and then into DEATH what changes were taking place? when death happens to a human what do you observe? a human enters from one state to the other, what changes were taking place in god?
what happen to the invisible spirit of this god when it changed to man and then death took over it?
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robert2016
Is god omnipresent? If you think yes then you have no logical reason to deny his incarnation, if you think no, then you believe in some entity that is not omnipresent.
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if god is omnipresent then you should worship me because god must by held by anything he is inside.
think about it, if location can hold god then it must have some kind of divinity from god fused within it.
if god is omnipresent the fire, the cloud, the angels must be worshipped in the sense of pointing to them and say “that fire is god”
“god is walking through egypt in the form of a ghost”
“god walked the earth as a man”
why stop at a bearded jew and not assume that the giant ball called the sun contains god within it
worship anything and everything cause god must be held by it.
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robert2016
This is why I truly feel sorry for muslims. It sounds like you are skeptical of god’s omnipresence – to interact personally he incarnated, otherwise to enter creation in his full glory is would destroy it. As an omnipresent being he can exist both as a full human and as god at the same time. Muslims are only able to deny this by diminishing god’s power.
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Do you believe that God can become Satan?
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“This is why I truly feel sorry for muslims. It sounds like you are skeptical of god’s omnipresence – to interact personally he incarnated, otherwise to enter creation in his full glory is would destroy it. As an omnipresent being he can exist both as a full human and as god at the same time. Muslims are only able to deny this by diminishing god’s power.”
so your pathetic god is unable to enter creation without a human body lol
so god needs to wear 5 human sences because he has no other way?
he is the problem,
you say “dimish his power” YET YOU HAVE TO have him diminish his power before he enter the earth
which means
you are worshipping a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a disabled god
you are experiencing a handicap god, right?
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it is your pagan beliefs which have not stop people turning the created into the infinite.
if created is strong enough to HOLD god , then surely something in created must have existed with god eternally. why limit god to bearded jew? why not worship me? at this moment it is my human nature speaking and maybe sometime into the future my divine nature will take over.
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robert2016
And why not believe that I just entered a cave and received a revelation from some angel that molested me that is telling me that mohammed is a false prophet and jesus is the truth?
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“And why not believe that I just entered a cave and received a revelation from some angel that molested me that is telling me that mohammed is a false prophet and jesus is the truth?”
jesus is a self centred and self worshipping scum who walked the earth. performed a few magic tricks and then told people to worship him. this is the scum you worship.
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robert2016
“jesus is a self centred and self worshipping scum who walked the earth. performed a few magic tricks and then told people to worship him. this is the scum you worship.”
So you acknowledge that jesus accepted worship from his followers?
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“So you acknowledge that jesus accepted worship from his followers?”
i don’t think the one who bowed to his daddy and begged to him to remove the crucifixion asked to be worshipped or accepted worship. i do think that later christians who like man worship turned a feeble and weak human into man god.
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1. if god entered into time and location, then what makes you worship a pierced beared jew and not the giant ball of light called the sun?
why limit your gods omnipresence to a pierced beared jew and nothing around him?
was god in the flesh of moses?
let me quote philo:
Philo’s description of Moses, who is called ‘god and king of the whole nation’, included some mastery over creation:
For, since God judged him worthy to appear as a partner of His own possessions, He gave into his hands the whole world as a portion well fitted for His heir. Therefore, each element obeyed him as its master, changed its natural properties and submitted to his command… (Vit Mos 1.155-156)
Compare the similar language in Mk 4.41: ‘Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?’ I’d use Greek, Alan, but it’s a bit of a hassle right now. Nevertheless, the linguistic similarities are there if you check. Another text (sometimes noted) is the description of the anointed figure in 4Q521: ‘[for the heav]ens and the earth will listen to his anointed one…’
end quote
was gods spirit in the flesh of moses?
should people bow down to moses and point to him and say “god is walking the earth”
if not, why not?
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And why not believe that you are an intelligent person and not a troll?
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i don’t care what you think of my intelligence bro paul
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I think he was talking to me. LOL!
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robert2016
“if god entered into time and location, then what makes you worship a pierced beared jew and not the giant ball of light called the sun?”
CHristian scriptures don’t say that god incarnated as the sun – he incarnated as the son. Your mind is still shrouded.
Jesus accepted worship – this much is clear, he used language that 1st century jews would have understood to mean he was claiming divinity, hence his crucifixion for blasphemy.
You don’t believe in god’s omnipresence which means you believe in something other than god – and you can’t be a muslim. If you accept that god is omnipresent, you have to accept that he can enter creation and exist outside of it at the same time.
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robert2016
“if god entered into time and location, then what makes you worship a pierced beared jew and not the giant ball of light called the sun?”
“CHristian scriptures don’t say that god incarnated as the sun – he incarnated as the son. Your mind is still shrouded.”
comment : your mind is shrouded with man worship i am just trying to see if there is room for celestial/heavenly body worship.
do i care what your scriptures say when your god appears as a cloud, angel, fire, lamb, donkey and bearded jew? why limit this ghost to these items?
“Jesus accepted worship – this much is clear, he used language that 1st century jews would have understood to mean he was claiming divinity, hence his crucifixion for blasphemy.”
that is bullshit. we know that riding on clouds and coming with power would not be blasphemous language because in daniel , when the jewish commentators commented, did not have a problem attributing “like a son of man” sayings to mere mortals.
it is the holy ones of the most highs who are the definition of the dream in daniel, so how is it possible that it was seen as blasphemous?
“You don’t believe in god’s omnipresence which means you believe in something other than god – and you can’t be a muslim. If you accept that god is omnipresent, you have to accept that he can enter creation and exist outside of it at the same time.”
if god is timeless and spaceless and locationless tell me how he can be in time, location and space.
if he can be in time, location and space, why limit him to a bearded and pierced jew?
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Robert very good. So death does not mean to cease to exist, but in order to argue that Jesus can not be immortal because he died even though he existed from eternity, and now exists in the place from where he came for eternity, is to argue that death means to cease to exist. That is to argue from an atheist world view that death is a cessation of existence. That is the position that Paul is forced to argue from in his limited and primitive definition of what it means to be immortal i.e. stripping away eternal pre existence and existing eternally in the future.
So the question now is how can God die if he says he does not die? The answer is simple, God can not die unless, he takes on human flesh and becomes incarnate.
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“So the question now is how can God die if he says he does not die? The answer is simple, God can not die unless, he takes on human flesh and becomes incarnate.”
do you really call this a response?
if god is invisible person, then what in this invisible person WAS TAKEN OVER BY DEATH?
lets assume that god BECAME A WEAK GHOST
death took over this weak ghost
so what in this god became defeated by death?
in what way does the flesh death interconnect with the ghost which is held by the flesh? what changes does it go through? humans will surely enter from flesh to spiritual change, so what changes are there in the invisilbe person of god?
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Robert the invisible became visible in Jesus Christ, the Mighty became humble in the Jesus Christ. So you preaching Christian doctrine is not a refutation of what Christians believe lol.
Instead you must prove why the invisible can not become visible why the majestic can not become humble in Jesus Christ.
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Can God become Satan?
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Paul Wiliams asked “Can God become Satan”. Well according to Shadid Lewis in a debate with Dr White Allah can become satan if he so chooses he’s allah he can do what ever he wants. But no the triune God of scripture can not do anything against his nature. And becoming the perfect sinless human being is not against his nature, since Jesus was the perfect sinless human being and fulfilled the LAW completely.
Come on Paul you claim to have been a Christian for 15 yeas, so you should have known this. Unless you never got passed milk?
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“But no the triune God of scripture can not do anything against his nature. And becoming the perfect sinless human being is not against his nature …”
Are you sure you are Christian? The triune God does not “become” a human being. Are you saying the triune God is the same God as “Jesus”? Oh dear.
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” And becoming the perfect sinless human being is not against his nature, since Jesus was the perfect sinless human being and fulfilled the LAW completely.”
how does “perfect sinless human” fit into “perfect powerful and ultimate being” ?
how does becoming a human not go against his nature?
does the son trust in god?
can you tell me how the son trusts in god?
don’t try to split the two and say that is the “divine nature ” and that is the “human nature”
i want to know how son TRUSTS in god and what his divine person uses to TRUST in god.
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”
Robert the invisible became visible in Jesus Christ, the Mighty became humble in the Jesus Christ. So you preaching Christian doctrine is not a refutation of what Christians believe lol.
Instead you must prove why the invisible can not become visible why the majestic can not become humble in Jesus Christ.”
i’ll ask again because the foolish brain you have doesn’t seem to understand
1. god with divine nature became WEAK AND created . yes or no ?
2. god’s invisible person with divine nature became WEAK AND created . yes or no?
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Robert I answered that. Here let me give you a passage that explains the whole thing….
Phil 2:6
who though he existed in the form of God
did not regard equality with God
as something to be grasped,
7 but emptied himself
by taking on the form of a slave,
by looking like other men,
and by sharing in human nature.
8 He humbled himself,
by becoming obedient to the point of death
—even death on a cross!
9 As a result God highly exalted him
and gave him the name
that is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus
every knee will bow
—in heaven and on earth and under the earth—
11 and every tongue confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord
to the glory of God the Father.
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Burhanuddin1
“Are you sure you are Christian? The triune God does not “become” a human being. Are you saying the triune God is the same God as “Jesus”? Oh dear.”
Why don’t you have a shot at explaining the tawhid?
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I don’t have to explain. There is explicit proof in scripture.
Are you saying the triune God is the same God as “Jesus”?
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The eternal Son/ the Word became flesh/human. Only the 2nd Person of the Trinity became flesh.
Philippians 2:5-11
John 1:1-5; 1:14
But you already know this is what we believe; you ask insincere goofy questions like “did the Tri-une God become flesh”, when you know we don’t believe that and no Christian EVER did in history.
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“The eternal Son/ the Word became flesh/human. Only the 2nd Person of the Trinity became flesh.”
now don’t change your christian words
“eternal” son became created and weak, right?
so “eternal son” WITH divine nature BECAME created and weak
so “g0d the son” physically experienced as god almighty the experience of learning, forgetting and remembers. and at times, when he was in danger, he, through his divine nature experienced how to trust in god, right?
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“Instead you must prove why the invisible can not become visible why the majestic can not become humble in Jesus Christ.”
when i said “invisible” i am talking about the infinite person of god WITH divine powers like all seeing, knowing and hearing
so what changed and BECAME weak within this being?
did his person detach itself from its powers and entered the earth and started having mood swings like humans or did its person along with its powers become WEAK?
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Burhanuddin1
“I don’t have to explain. There is explicit proof in scripture.”
Really? The old testament says “tawhid”? It says that god has 99 attributes? It says that we cannot know his essence? It says that his attributes are only glimpses and don’t reflect his essence? It says that his “oneness” is an attribute? I don’t think that these ideas are explicitly stated in the quran either. There is no scriptural support for your unknowable god.
You are copping out because you have no idea what you worship or who your god is. That’s the logical conclusion of tawhid. Or you are simply don’t understand tawhid because it makes little sense once you think about it.
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Robert
Why don’t you explain the tawhid, since this topic is on whether we worship the same god.
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No it doesn’t. Humans die God does not ergo Jesus was not God. Simple
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Paul but God took on Human flesh so yes he died but still remained immortal, and still remained GOD. Since Jesus was both God in MAN
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Oh ok. So only the human bit died right?
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Paul no I did not say only the Human part died. Come on man you say you used to be a Christian you should no better. Or maybe you didn’t know better.
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So you believe that the God bit died too. Oh dear, you have just contradicted the Bible which says the eternal, immortal God does not die like men
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Paul what bit, come on man you claim to have been a Christian for 15 years, you really should know better than this. No God “BIT” no “Human BIT” no bits at all lol.
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“Paul no I did not say only the Human part died.”
your worship of human being has pierced into your brains so badly that you capitalize even the “h” in “human”
humans die but their soul lives on and loses control of human body
if a god is still in control and has power over everything, what do you mean “i did not say ONLY the human part died” ?
death means to LOSE life and CONTROL
agreed, your god lost his life and control?
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“Paul but God took on Human flesh so yes he died but still remained immortal, and still remained GOD. Since Jesus was both God in MAN”
WHAT IN THE INVISBLE god WAS TAKEN OVER BY DEATH?
if god “took on human flesh” was that his invisible person becoming visible and weak
did gods invisible person become weak?
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define “immortal” how you want. who defeated your god and for how many days did he have to battle with death/satan before he could pop back into life?
what were the 3 persons in trinity doing while one part of god was battling with death? were they looking at each other?
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“It” is letting you reply – Paul is deleting your comments because that is how he thinks you win arguments. He has very little faith in his god and false prophet.
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Actually I have deleted no ones comments today.
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Paul
You have more faith in your button that let’s you delete comments than in your religion.
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‘Just a christian’, me thinks sammy the saint’s back!
‘I can refer to my god as He be you can’t refer to your tawheedi god as He’!!! LOL
Are u really saying you don’t believe in tawheed??!! Think about it?! Taweed is the belief in One God. Don’t u believe that???!! I thought u christians believe there is only One God??!!
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No Tahweed is not the belief in ONE GOD. Tahweed is the belief in what this ONE god is. So go and study then come back to me when you are familiar with the subject matter.
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Just a Christian
“Tahweed is the belief in what this ONE god is. ”
Good luck trying to get this bunch of morons to answer that one – they have no idea what it is they believe in.
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Talk about moron. We know – do not have to “believe” – that God revealed himself explicitly and consistently as one. And we know he never revealed himself explicitly as three.
Trinitarianism is the odd one out.
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LOL!!!
There goes Paul bowing down to his “delete comment” button again! Have more faith son.
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Just a Christian
My friend, don’t you believe in the Bible? What ever immortal means, the Bible clearly, unequivocally, without doubt, categorically said God is immortal i.e. God do not die. Jesus died and so Jesus is not God period and full stop (.). That is what the Bible said here and not Muslims here.
The Bible did not say “limited and primitive atheist definition of death”. The Bible said IMMORTAL, IMMORTAL, IMMORTAL, IMMORTAL. Whether death means cease to exist or not, the Bible said God is immortal and it means do not die.
By dying one becomes a mortal. God is the only immortal and so He does not die according to the Bible, no matter what death means.
Converting to Islam or say Jehovah Witness is too much for you to bear with your pride, so you will continue worshiping a dead God to your destruction. Prince has died a Jehovah Witness and at least he did not worship a dead man and he is better than those worshiping a dead man. Purple Rain, Purple Rain.
“Tahweed is the belief in what this ONE god is. ”
And so what?
Again, the Bible said no one has seen God and no one can tell who God is because you have not seen Him to describe him, but you use the scripture to describe Him and the scripture said He is One, Only and Alone and Nothing is like Him and He begets not and nor is He begotten.
Thanks.
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Just a christian, or sam sham…
Tawheed is absolutely the belief in One God! ‘…what that one god is…??!!’ LOL!!!
Muslims believe the ‘what God is ‘ is outside human comprehension. We know God by his attributes not his essence!
Wow, you christians are silly!
Again, I ask, do you not believe in One God? If the answer is yes, then you believe in Tawheed! Boom!
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Jacob so stop calling allah a “HE” come on be consistent with your world view.
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Sam the Sham
Please don’t embarrass yourself by showing your ignorance of the Arabic language. The pronoun ‘He’ in Arabic grammar is also used for gender -neutral, meaning not male or female, as we created beings are.
And don’t try to avoid the question! Do you believe in One God???
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Jacob So allah is an “IT” say not Three but say “IT” instead?
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BTW Jacob although I’m honored you think “m Sam Shamoun I”M NOT,
So tell me is Allah an IT? Is IT an inanimate object? Is IT allah one in every sense of the word ONE?
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It’s not meant as an honour! Your belligerent and petulant childish writing style gives you away. Be a real man sam, and stop hiding behind made up names!!
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In the last 33 years, in one on one evangelism and friendships with Muslims, I have known several Arabs and Turks (all Muslims) that told me not to say “he” for Allah/God. they even said, “Allah is not “he”; He don’t have a penis; Allah is an “it”. Allah is Allah!!”
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Wow! Ken u do hang around some strange people!
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jacob
“We know God by his attributes not his essence!”
In other words, you don’t know god, can’t know god. So who is it that you worship? What do you worship? If your god’s “oneness” is not his essence then what is his nature? His oneness must only be an attribute since you cannot know what the essence of his nature is.
See? When you actually try to unravel the tawhid, it, well, unravels rather quickly.
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Sam the Sham, that’s just word salad! You’re making no sense! Lol!!
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Unlike you Tawheed, makes perfect sense. God is One. No equal, no partners and not a man
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And God dies not die like the animals he created
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“And God dies not die like the animals he created”
the funny part is they say , “that’s the flesh part”
yet they would point to their god and says ” hey, that’s god walking the earth as a man”
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Paul of coarse he did not die like the animals he created He that being Jesus died like the HUMAN Being he was and he created. Man for someone who claims to be a Christian for 15 years you sure don’t seem to know alot about Christianity.
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“Paul of coarse he did not die like the animals he created He that being Jesus died like the HUMAN Being he was and he created. Man for someone who claims to be a Christian for 15 years you sure don’t seem to know alot about Christianity.”
he definitely died like an animal. he was the “lamb of your god” led to “slaughter”
so he definately was abused and molested by the romans. so your god was driven up the cross and then he slowly lost control of his life. that is what death means.
your god died like an animal
you must accept that your god, with divine nature, entered the earth and DIED like mortal.
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Robert wow I bet you were waiting a long time for the “Lamb of God’ comment lol. What is really sad is that because Mohamed or allah did not know, is that there were 10 not 9 Plagues in Egypt. So you don’t have the passover, you don’t have the blood of the lamb, so the wrath of God will not pass over you. Sad and scary for you
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You don’t have the “blood of a lamb”. A crucifixion is no blood sacrifice. Sad and scary for you
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I advise you to read the Blog Post here “Biblical Offerings vs. Christian Doctrine”.
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Buhan and I suggest you read Hebrews to learn how Jesus as the HIGH priest, entered into the real heavenly temple with his OWN blood.
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jacob
“Unlike you Tawheed, makes perfect sense. God is One. No equal, no partners and not a man”
You have contradicted yourself – confused contradiction is the logical outcome of tawhid. You don’t know – can’t know – your god, you said this yourself. Even his oneness is beyond you ability to comprehend since it cannot be of his essence – you said this yourself, you only know god through his attributes not his essence. His “oneness” according to your tawhid can only be an attribute an not of his essence since his essence isn’t known.
In short, you have no idea who or what it is that you worship. You can’t.
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Again your making no sense…just jumbling words together, thinking you sound clever, which you don’t!
So what do you worship? What is the essence of your god?
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jacob
I know I’m not making any sense to you – this is because muslims never truly think about tawhid because they are told it is simple, when in fact if you put together all of the statements you made about tawhid (which is pretty standard fare for muslims), it suddenly becomes apparent that the concept is internally contradictory and not simple at all.
That’s why muslims usually avoid trying to describe tawhid because it is a far from simple concept that cannot be rationally defended.
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D looks like Jacob went radio silence on us lol
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I know – strange that suddenly none of these guys want to talk about their god anymore.
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You’re avoiding the question as to whether or not you believe in one God, if you do then you believe in Tawheed.
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Jacob really I sugest you google Tahweed or Tahwid, or however you want to spell it. There is even a WIKI article on it. Tahweed is not that there is ONE God, it is WHO that ONE GOD IS? We Christians believe in ONE God. That ONE God is TRIUNE in nature he is not your Tahweedy GOD that does not have a nature and only has un knowable attributes.
BTW you have not answered my question. Is allah ONE in ever sense of the word ONE?
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What on God’s sweet earth does ‘ one in ever ever sense of the word one’ mean!!! Lol. U evangelicals r getting sillier by the day!
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You get your understanding of Tawheed from WIKI! LOLZ!!!!!!!! ROFL!!!
Ok, lets do WIKI on Luther and Calvin!
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Hello Jacob, can you answer my question. Is allah ONE in every sense of the word ONE?
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There is only One Almighty God! He is One and Only. What do u not understand about that????!!!!
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D whats funny is that these Tahweedy Muslims follow a theology that was developed 200 to 400 years after their prophet died, in direct opposition to the real Muslims the Mutazilites, who believed like the Jewish Rambam that god has no Attributes or in what is called negative theology. As the Rambam said to the Tawheedy Muslims in his day…
“You have turned one God into 99 Gods.” Good job Tahweedes good job.
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Agreed.
Tawhid is only vaguely referred to in the quran – all this other stuff about 99 attributes and the rest are not supported.
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Tawheed is only vaguely referred to in the Quran. ROFL!!!!! That shows you have not read the Quran, only silly articles about the Quran on that moronic site ‘answering Islam’!!!! The whole Quran talks about there is only One God, That’s the main theme of the Quran. There is nothing more important in the Quran than One True God. All the prophets main message was One God and Worship this one God Alone.
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The same Rambam called you ‘trinnies’ and ‘triunies’ IDOLATORS! He forbade jews from entering churches as they are houses of idolatry!!!!
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D is making perfect sense lol
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That’s true. Many Muslims have told me that one cannot know Allah/God in his essence/ذات ، اساس، جوهر substance, etc. One can only know Allah’s attributes.
The goal of Islam is just to obey him out of duty as a slave.
The goal in Christianity is to know God personally and be more and more conformed to the character of Jesus the Son, thus glorifying God. We know God as Lord and Master and friend.
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LOL, how exactly do you get to know God “personally”? Do you chat with him on a daily basis?
Allah (Glorified and Exalted be He) is above His creation. We can’t know or understand His “mind”. There is nothing problematic about that. Even Christians say all the time that “God works in mysterious ways”. You can’t understand God. But you can understand that He is Omnipotent (Al-Qadir), the Ever-Living (Al-Hayy) and the Al-Sufficient (Al-Ghaniyy).
http://www.ais.org/~bsb/Herald/Previous/96/toknow.html
http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/99names.htm
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Faiz
“We can’t know or understand His “mind”.”
LOL! And tawhid is so simple!
“You can’t understand God. But you can understand that He is Omnipotent (Al-Qadir), the Ever-Living (Al-Hayy) and the Al-Sufficient (Al-Ghaniyy).”
SHIRK!!!!!
Your god is none of those things because equate his attributes with his essence is to divide him and elevate human concepts to his equal.
This tawhid nonsense gets more incomprehensible the more you guys try to insist it is simple.
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LOL, D. It is so hilarious to see a trinitarian claim that Tawhid is “nonsense”. So, the Oneness of God is “nonsense”? Well, I guess I can’t blame you for believing that. After all, you believe in a nonsensical pagan idea known as the trinity, so of course you would want to claim that God’s unity is “nonsense”. That’s like a a pagan saying monotheism is “nonsense”. I would laugh at such a person’s face for being so silly!
Tawhid is simple, you dolt. God is One. There are no other “gods” besides Him. What’s more simple than that? It makes far more sense than your 3-in-1 package deal. What is this? The Thanksgiving Day sale at Macy’s? Get 3 for 1!
I said that you cannot understand the mind of God, but you can understand that He is Omnipotent (i.e. He can do anything He wants), the Ever-Living (i.e. He is eternal and does not die) and the All-Sufficient (i.e. He has no needs and is free of all wants). This is not “elevating humans concepts to his equal”. It is simply stating the attributes of God that separate Him from His creation (i.e. us).
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By the way, I noticed you didn’t answer my question about knowing God “personally”. Ken tried but failed miserably. Perhaps you can shed some light on this mystery?
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“The goal in Christianity is to know God personally and be more and more conformed to the character of Jesus the Son, thus glorifying God. We know God as Lord and Master and friend.”
hector avalos has written on jesus imperialism in the chapter 6
“the imperialist jesus : we are all god’s slave”
people like you love atheist arguments because they wreck your religion
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faiz
“Tawhid is simple, you dolt. God is One. There are no other “gods” besides Him. What’s more simple than that? ”
That’s not simple, that’s simplistic you dolt. Your god’s oneness is not his essence – or at least you cannot know whether it is his essence or not. Remember, you are the guys who can’t know god’s essence – his attributes are not his essence to say so is to commit shirk.
Dude, you don’t even know this basic point of your own theology – your god “is” not his attributes so he “is” not omnipotent, he has the attributes of omnipotence. Yes, that sounds like nonsense to me too, but go figure.
“By the way, I noticed you didn’t answer my question about knowing God “personally”.”
God is personal in all the goodness and beauty in life.
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His essence is Oneness, you dolt. There is only One God. He exists as Himself, not as some 3-in-1 package deal, like your trinitarian sale. Not only that, but your “god” decided to come down as a human and live with human limitations and yet maintained that we must “worship” his human form as well. Yeah, that sounds like repackaged paganism masquerading as monotheism. You Christians would be right at home in one of the ancient pagan cults, such as that of Krishna.
Regarding knowing God “personally”, like all the other Christians, you gave yet another vague answer! Why am I not surprised?
God is personal in all the goodness and beauty in life? Oh well, then every single person has a “personal” relationship with God, including atheists and idol worshipers! LOL, why can’t you people give a concise answer for once?
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“Dude, you don’t even know this basic point of your own theology – your god “is” not his attributes so he “is” not omnipotent, he has the attributes of omnipotence. Yes, that sounds like nonsense to me too, but go figure.”
before you clarify the stuff you have written do you understand “omnipotence” as ADJECTIVE or noun?
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“The goal in Christianity is to know God personally and be more and more conformed to the character of Jesus the Son, thus glorifying God. We know God as Lord and Master and friend.”
since you can’t smell jesus’ breath and neither can you taste, touch see him, what do you have accept imagination of a human who walked the earth?
tell me how does seeing a human being get you connected to the divine essence of god?
you are overwhelmed by the created human qualities of your man god. so your relationship must be with what you think jesus did in flesh.
there is hadeeth which says that just the blessing of eye sight is heavier than anything a human could do.
“do you not see the camel , how they are made? ”
you put jesus’ works above the WORKS of the creator of the heavens and the earth
“And walk not on the earth with conceit and arrogance(saying things like “i am” ). Verily, you can neither rend nor penetrate the earth, nor can you attain a stature like the mountains in height (jesus was BROUGHT to his knees).” – Qur’an 17:37.
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Faiz
“His essence is Oneness, you dolt.”
So you do know your god’s essence? which is it man, do you know your god’ s essence or don’t you? You only “know” your god through his attributes and oneness is not an attribute, or is it since….I’m lost.
“God is personal in all the goodness and beauty in life? Oh well, then every single person has a “personal” relationship with God, including atheists and idol worshipers! ”
Sure, why not? Do they recognize who it is? I guess not if they’re atheists and muslims.
But that’s my personal experience I’m talking about – you know as in personal…experience…as opposed to outward experiences that may be common to everyone. I can’t speak for what other people experience personally.
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“and oneness is not an attribute, or is it since….I’m lost.”
That just shows how little you know. One of Allah’s 99 Names is Al-Wahid, which literally means…wait for it…wait for it…”THE ONE”!
“Sure, why not? Do they recognize who it is? I guess not if they’re atheists and muslims.
But that’s my personal experience I’m talking about – you know as in personal…experience…as opposed to outward experiences that may be common to everyone. I can’t speak for what other people experience personally.”
Why not? Because then Christians are not unique. I always hear Christians claim that they have a personal relationship with God, but it seems that according to you, everyone has a relationship with God. Therefore, Christianity does not offer us any thing new or special. Thank you for clearing that up!
As for your so-called “personal experience”, thank you for showing the other asinine aspect of Christianity…subjectivity. You cannot prove ANYTHING (either to yourself or to others) you claim about your “personal relationship”. For all you know, it may just be your own delusions.
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“This is why I truly feel sorry for muslims. It sounds like you are skeptical of god’s omnipresence – to interact personally he incarnated, otherwise to enter creation in his full glory is would destroy it. As an omnipresent being he can exist both as a full human and as god at the same time. Muslims are only able to deny this by diminishing god’s power.”
your god is omnipresent yet he incarnated?
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“As an omnipresent being he can exist both as a full human and as god at the same time.”
if he is “full human” how is he omnipresent? if he is omnipresent then he exists in every human and every idol in all the earth even before jesus was born. yhwh is omnipresent in every idol and every human.
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God is my Creator, Sustainer, Comforter, Lord, and Protecting Friend. Muslims Worship Him Alone because He is Worthy of this. And yes we are proud to be His slaves.
And how do you ‘conform to the character of Jesus’???? You don’t do one thing that conforms to Jesus’s character!
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Jacob so Allah is one in every sense of the word ONE?
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Allah is One and Only. How many times do we have to say it!!!
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jacob
“Allah is One and Only. How many times do we have to say it!!!”
LOL! That’s not an explanation.
Here, look I can do the same……
God is triune! Simple!!!!
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Your getting boring now. Repeating the same inane question over and over….! You sound like a dull, stuck record!
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This “Just a Christian” seems utterly confused
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“Buhan and I suggest you read Hebrews to learn how Jesus as the HIGH priest, entered into the real heavenly temple with his OWN blood.”
I’m not dealing with creative theology and speculation. Fact is a crucifixion is not a blood sacrifice.
The unknown author of Hebrews seems as confused as you.
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Ken Temple
“But you already know this is what we believe; you ask insincere goofy questions like “did the Tri-une God become flesh”, when you know we don’t believe that and no Christian EVER did in history.”
Your fellow troll “Just a Christian” believes that. And don’t accuse me falsely, capice?
I did not ask, I clearly stated “The triune God does not “become” a human being.”
I asked your fellow troll if the triune God is the same God as “Jesus”?
I asked you the same question before, and you ran from it like your fellow troll.
And now you can go back to preaching you arrogant sinner.
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He does not believe that. That is why it seems insincere and goofy, in my opinion. He believes the Son/the Word/2nd person of the Trinity only became flesh/human. He quoted Philippians 2:5-11
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we are not trolls; we are engaging sincerely in discussion/debate/questions.
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I highly doubt that. So far, both “D” (who I assume is Damien) and “Just a Christian” (who I assume is Crazy Hippy) have been insulting Muslims and Islam. And of course, you too have made disparaging remarks about Islam as well. So don’t pretend that you are “sincerely” engaging in discussion.
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That’s wrong. He said
“But no the triune God of scripture can not do anything against his nature. And becoming the perfect sinless human being is not against his nature ….”
I corrected him. I clearly stated “The triune God does not “become” a human being.”
He did not quote Philippians 2:5-11.
It is not insincere and goofy to expose your fallacious double talk about God.
Please answer the simple question Is the triune God is the same God as “Jesus”?
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He meant the Son became flesh/ human. that is obvious.
God does not do anything against His nature/character.
Jesus is God by nature; and the Father is God by nature and the Spirit is God by nature; but they are One God. (three persons in One God)
The Father and the Spirit are NOT the Son.
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“God does not do anything against His nature/character.”
Is it God’s nature to be three-personal?
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The father’s god, the son’s god and spirit is god, but these are 1 not 3!!!! ??? This makes sense to you but Tawheed, Only One God, doesn’t!!! LOL!!!
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Burahan you are a LIAR. I did quote Phi 2 and very clearly I said numerous times that the WORD Of GOD became FLESH. Who is the second person of the trinity. Now quit trolling and quit lying. OH wait the latter is impossible it seems for Muslims.
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Calm down. Easy.
You did not quote Phi 2 to me, not in the context triune-God-becoming-man, you ignored my comment and did not answer.
Is the triune God the same God as “Jesus”?
And you avoid the question how many “He’s” is your God? One or three? Or four?
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Wow ok then well let me clarify. The Triune God, unlike allah has a nature, and unlike allah he can not do anything against his nature. He is ONE God not three or four but ONE God, who is a triune being. That being Three PERSONS. THe Word of GOD who is the SON of GOD, is the second person of the Triune GOD.
He like the other two persons of the ONLY GOD are fully GOD. HE the second person of the SINGLE BEING THE TRIUNE God, became the perfect sinless MAN and perfectly fulfilled the LAW for us.
This is not against the nature of the Triune GOD, and since the WORD Of God who became flesh is the Second Person of the Triune GOD who is fully GOD it is not against his nature.
One more thing. Only the Son became flesh not the father nor the spirit.
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I count four “He’s” for your God, thank you.
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Well then I can’t help you if you don’t know how to count. But you can take classes and get up to speed.
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Ok, slowly then so that even you can get it.
1. He: “The Triune God, … HE is ONE God not three or four but ONE God, WHO is a triune being.”
2. He: “The Word of GOD WHO … HE like the other two persons…”
3. He: The Father
4. He: The HS
We have 4 distinct “He’s” who are not identical to each other.
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they are so badly confused on this that some of them think these aren’t even selves.
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So the son was a “God-man”? Wow. Sounds like paganism masquerading as monotheism.
And by “perfect”, do you mean only in the sense that he did not sin? Or was he “perfect” in other ways as well?
Also, how exactly did Jesus “fulfill” the Law? Does that meant he perfectly obeyed each and every tenet of the Law? What if he violated any of those laws?
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bart recently said the following :
The problem with this view is that it is looking at both paganism and Christianity from the perspective of (completely) modern sensibilities. It is true that polytheism seems hopelessly confusing and inferior to most modern Western eyes. But in most times and places it was precisely monotheism that was seen as ridiculous and indefensible. For most ancients, monotheism was non-sense (saying you could have only one God was like saying you could have only one family member or only one friend). And it should certainly not be thought that Christians were widely considered more ethical than other peoples. Just the contrary, Christians were infamous for their scandalous behavior, as it was widely thought that Christians regularly held nocturnal orgies in which they committed incest, infanticide, and cannibalism. Early Christians were not known for their support of family values.
end quote
is it any surprise christianity paid lip service to monotheism but stuck in between polytheism and monethiesm?
they had to appease their pagan audience and what better way to say god is actually 3 beings/persons in 1 being?
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Yes, Christianity is a tragic case of paying lip service to one idea but practicing another idea. I don’t doubt that they sincerely believe in One God, but their theology does not support it. To believe in a man-god is paganism, pure and simple.
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if one jew is to tell me that he has access to the same mind, sight, and power as almighty god, i tell you the truth, i would call that shirk at the highest degree. forget about nailing him to a piece of wood, lets assume that he was “glowing” i would still say that he who requires the earth and time to hold him, must be created and finite no matter how many miracles or trick he/she does. christianity has done idolatry of the mind/heart and it seek to bring people in putting tawakkul in insaan.
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“Also, how exactly did Jesus “fulfill” the Law? Does that meant he perfectly obeyed each and every tenet of the Law? What if he violated any of those laws?”
and those pertaining to women. no problem. in the trinity there was sophia of yhwh. so jesus could easily slip into hukmah/sophia role and full fill the laws pertaining to females.
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Faiz
“Also, how exactly did Jesus “fulfill” the Law? Does that meant he perfectly obeyed each and every tenet of the Law?”
Think atonement – the law was given to purify the people, enable them to live lives that would bring them into harmony with yahweh, and cleanse them of sin. Jesus fulfilled the law by atoning for sin, which gave them the hope of harmony with god.
Fulfilled and obeyed are two different words with two completely different meanings.
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Except that people still sin, so how exactly has Jesus “fulfilled the law by atoning for sin”? Don’t Christians still have to obey God’s commands and not do sinful things?
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they have church rituals which they must obey otherwise they would be judged as “unchristian”
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Faiz
I think that’ s a genuine question so I’ll try my best to answer it.
he didn’t stop people from sinning he paid the price of atonement – when you go before god the punishment for this sin was taken by jesus.
“Don’t Christians still have to obey God’s commands and not do sinful things?”
Christians have to repent, but according to christianity, sinning is our nature.
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“Think atonement – the law was given to purify the people, enable them to live lives that would bring them into harmony with yahweh, and cleanse them of sin. Jesus fulfilled the law by atoning for sin, which gave them the hope of harmony with god.”
” Jesus fulfilled the law by atoning for sin”
which law/laws?
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All of them, apparently. Including the most important one which is that there are no other gods besides God and that you cannot have any graven images. Yet, Christians claim that Jesus (a man) was God in human form!
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D, you said:
“he didn’t stop people from sinning he paid the price of atonement – when you go before god the punishment for this sin was taken by jesus.”
Then, what is there to stop a person from sinning continuously, if the “price” has already been paid? And if you still have to avoid sin in order to be saved, then what was the purpose of the “atonement” of Jesus?
You said:
“Christians have to repent, but according to christianity, sinning is our nature.”
Then there is no point to the atonement. I have heard Christians say that God does not tolerate sin. But if sinning is in our nature, then we have no chance of being saved because God will not allow sin in His presence. Surely, you can see the contradiction.
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“he didn’t stop people from sinning he paid the price of atonement – when you go before god the punishment for this sin was taken by jesus.”
your god abused himself violently for the laws which came out of his own mind?
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“he didn’t stop people from sinning he paid the price of atonement – when you go before god the punishment for this sin was taken by jesus.”
so he “paid the price” for what came out of his own mind? why not just make laws which did not require your god to “pay the price”
is your god a dolt?
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“Fulfilled and obeyed are two different words with two completely different meanings.”
jesus “fullfilled” the laws so christians can break them, right?
you either obey or break a law.
so which law/laws were fullfilled?
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robert2016
“so which law/laws were fullfilled?”
The ones Faiz asked about.
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Faiz
“All of them, apparently. Including the most important one which is that there are no other gods besides God and that you cannot have any graven images.”
LOL!
Except for his 99 attributes that aren’t actually him, they just, you know, kind of look like him, but we don’t know what his essence is even though his oneness is simple it is not his essence because we can’t know his essence, it’s an attribute, but he is not his attributes, so his oneness is not his essence which we cannot know anyway.
You worship 99 vague glimpses of some being from whom you have absolutely no promises of his nature, essence, or purpose.
In other words, you have absolutely no idea who or what you are worshipping.
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“he didn’t stop people from sinning he paid the price of atonement – when you go before god the punishment for this sin was taken by jesus.”
if your sins have already been paid for because god was unable to send unbreakable rules , does that mean you are to live guilt free life because you know your guilt has been paid in full and no more divine consequence awaits you?
if yes , then why do christians judge each other according to how much christian they are ?
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which animal sacrifice allowed hebrews to break torah laws?
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“Wow ok then well let me clarify. The Triune God, unlike allah has a nature, and unlike allah he can not do anything against his nature. He is ONE God not three or four but ONE God, who is a triune being. That being Three PERSONS. THe Word of GOD who is the SON of GOD, is the second person of the Triune GOD.”
you are describing a freaking partnership/business. how can you think that you worship 1 god? your god is a company which has role players in it. don’t play with words and then u r obviously polytheist
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You keep referring to the triune God as “a He” a “Who”.
I want to know who that is. Legitimate question.
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You want to know who God is?
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I know already. God is one “Who”. Unlike yours.
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Well maybe you can answer me then. Is your God ONE in every sense of the word ONE?
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No buddy, I want to know “Who” is the triune God?
Father plus Son plus HS = 1 He? 1 Who?
That’s what you are saying, no?
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NO thats not what I’m saying and if you haven’t caught what I have been saying by this time you never will.
But hey can you tell me I want to know is allah one in every sense of the word one?
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What a silly question.
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“You want to know who God is?”
you keep on saying your god is a “who”
why identify him as a “who” when you really have 1 “what” ?
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Robert maybe you can answer me since no Muslim so far seems willing to.
IS allah one in every sense of the word ONE?
If you can’t answer that one then maybe you can answer why Muslims call allah HE?
Now if you say that the arabic is gender neutral then why don’t you call allah an IT?
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Here is a very good discussion and presentations by 3 camps over the question raised by Paul at beginning of blog post; and implications for other areas.
The 3 groups are:
1. 2 Muslims – Caner Dagli and Joseph Lumbard
2. 2 Evangelicals who agree with “the Common Word” – Joseph Cumming and Donald Smedley (and agree that we worship the same God)
3. 2 Evangelicals who disagree respectfully with “A Common Word” and disagree that we worship the same God. (John Piper and Al Mohler)
http://www.desiringgod.org/messages/evangelicals-and-a-common-word
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yes, he did quote Philippians 2:6-11
https://bloggingtheology.net/2016/04/25/do-christians-and-muslims-worship-the-same-god-a-christian-view/#comment-12883
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Not to me, not in the context triune-God-becoming-man, he ignored my comment and did not answer.
You are presenting nothing but fallacies as usual.
Is the triune God the same God as “Jesus”?
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Ken Temple, D, and Just a Christian
The Bible said no one has seen God and so no one can describe God. Tauhid means 1 God who is only and alone. Yes, for now God is known by His attributes because no one has seen God because the Bible clearly said God is immortal and invincible. DON’T YOU UNDERSTAND IMMORTAL AND INVINCIBLE?
Of course not Christians alone but every religion is seeking to know God and believe they are in the presence of God because God is closer to them than their jugular veins.
The Bible said God is not a Man, so will you call God “IT” because of that? I guess no. So why blaming Muslims for referring to God as “He”. Angel Gabriel is not a Man but the Bible referred to him as “He” because there is no pronoun for other beings except human beings.
“IT” does not befit these higher beings because we use “IT” for something low. It is theological bankruptcy and philosophical and intellectual dishonesty to question the use of “HE” for God or an Angel.
With a that said, Muslims do not worship “Tawhid” but Muslims worship “Allah” but Christians worship “Trinity”. Christians or to be specific, Trinitarian God cannot be God without “3” and that is blaspheme and a big sin that needs repentance otherwise the person will go straight to the hell fire when he dies.
The Bible said God is one, only and alone. There is no where in the Bible that said “3 Persons 1 God” is the only God. Yahweh said “I Yahweh, I am the only He”.
“See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
“Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
“You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22
“For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?” 2 Samuel 22:32
“Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
THE BIBLE SAID THERE IS NOTHING LIKE GOD. DO YOU CALL GOD “IT”?
SHOW ME WHERE THE BIBLE SAID “GOD IS A TRIUNE GOD”?
I am able to bring a lot of passages from the Bible that clearly said “God is One” and that is Tauhid or Tauheed.
We do not worship Tawheed or Tauhid or oneness of God as some Christians like Dr. James White erroneously thought but we worship Allah who is 1, alone and only.
The difference between Trinitarian Christians and Mormons is that they have limited the number of persons in their Godhead to 3, even though you cannot find it in the Bible while Mormons have more personal Gods. They are all multi-personal God worshiping people but not worshiping 1 God.
3 is multi, 4,5,6,7……….. are all multi but not mono so Trinitarians and Mormons are polytheists and not monotheists.
If Mormons are polytheists, then Trinitarians Christians are polytheists and having a dead God in addition. They say God died for their sins even though the Bible disagreed with them and said God is immortal and will not die.
Thanks.
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Intellect
” Yes, for now God is known by His attributes because no one has seen God because the Bible clearly said God is immortal and invincible.”
I disagree – the bible clearly says that the hebrew god makes himself known – hence revelation.
It is obvious to me that none of you guys on this blog have even come close to examining this basic doctrine of your religion. Attributes are not necessarily insights into the character of your god.
Think lions and bears – both are kinda cuddly, soft, and furry and look adorable sometimes. But the nature and essence of these creatures is none of those things. Con-men and thieves are often extremely charming, friendly, and charismatic and seem like the nicest people on earth. But that does not describe their essence or natures.
Likewise, your god has these 99 attributes that you admit do not describe or infer his essence – what then do you worship? Are you worshiping a being whose nature is malevolent? You have no way of telling. You have no way of telling that such a being’s revelations are characteristic of his good essence because you don’t know what his essence is. He doesn’t tell you.
Are you deists who think that god is unknowable? That is what you sound like.
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“I disagree – the bible clearly says that the hebrew god makes himself known – hence revelation.”
by doing what the pagan gods did? why did moses destroy the golden animal? yhwh makes him self known as a cow and cow feeds villages and provides meat to eat. why did moses not known that the caifer worshippers were worhipping yhwh in different form?
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Burhanuddin1
It really isn’t that hard dude. The premise for the incarnation is that god can exist in more than one place at the same time and in different forms – and no don’t go all dumb on me and accuse me of modalism.
Are you telling me that you worship a god that is incapable of this? Then again, you have no idea what your god’s nature is, so how can you claim to know what he can and can’t do?
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Seems your God can be a red herring too.
You believe in an incarnated God. Not me. Simple Question
Is Jesus the same God as the triune God?
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If god is all-powerful, he is capable of existing in more than one place and more than form all at the same time. It really, really, is not hard.
Your god’s oneness – your co-religionists have now admitted – is only an attribute, and therefore cannot possibly be his essence. That’s a problem for you. Since you can’t know your god’s essence, you can’t possibly make a claim of absolute oneness, or even that he is THE supreme being. At best you can say that your god is simply some entity that has more power than humans. Maybe you worship an alien?
According to the trinity, jesus is one person of the triune god – simple.
So what’s your belief? Are you ever going to explain tawhid? Jacob tried, but couldn’t get past repeating simplistic mantras that explain nothing.
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It’s a question of Identity. My God is always identical to himself.
Yours is not, I suppose.
The triune God is three persons in one being.
Jesus the God is two beings in one person.
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Burhanuddin1
“It’s a question of Identity. My God is always identical to himself.”
Yeah, that’s never going to make sense. His identity is his essence which you cannot know. You’re saying that you know your god’s identity, even though you can’t know him. No fatal contradiction there.
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God is one God, one Self, one Who. That’s what he has revealed explicitly and consistently.
No mental gymnastics required. Don’t ascribe things to God for which you have no proof.
Your God is not one Self, one Who, is he?
The triune God is three persons in one being.
Jesus the God is two beings in one person.
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“If god is all-powerful, he is capable of existing in more than one place and more than form all at the same time. It really, really, is not hard.”
lol, you pathetic christian. if god is everywhere then he is in idols too. why isn’t god in idols? you are in agreement with the hindus here.
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“According to the trinity, jesus is one person of the triune god – simple.”
so your god is “one of” ?
in other word you worship “one of ” god ? lol
you have “one of ” god SEND another “one of ” god
this is “simple” ?
in each dimensions “one of ” your gods don’t know the mind of another “one of ” your gods
very similar to hindu ideas
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D
You said;
It really isn’t that hard dude. The premise for the incarnation is that god can exist in more than one place at the same time and in different forms – and no don’t go all dumb on me and accuse me of modalism.
Are you telling me that you worship a god that is incapable of this? Then again, you have no idea what your god’s nature is, so how can you claim to know what he can and can’t do?
I say;
Characteristics of idol worshipers like you. Mormons believe God exists in more than one form, why is Dr. James White saying they are idolaters when Trinitarians believe God exists in more than one form?
Voodoo idol worshipers in Haiti believe God exists in more than one form and especially in snakes and you share the same believe with them and you are an idolater to think God can exist in more than one form.
Ken Temple believes this but he is so intelligent and never put it in this phrase because it is too easy to link Trinitarians to other forms of idol worshipers.
God clearly said He is One. He did not talk about his form or how He exists. He keep saying He is One and that is it, period, full stop, dot(.).
Thanks
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This is very good also.
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do you want me to paste the debate between him and kunde?
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That was an excellent debate and Abdullah Kunde is a very respectful Muslim.
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2013/08/18/debate-can-god-become-a-man-james-white-vs-abdullah-kunde/
around 2:21:00 Abdullah talks about certainty – yaqin – یقین
Interesting that that is the word used in Surah 4:157 – “for certain they did not kill Him” Yet, established historical fact is against the Qur’an on this.
In Abdullah’s closing statement at the end: 2:25:56 – “ how God gave Himself, according to the Christians, and you know, I mean, that is beautiful . . . “ but you know what, we have so much more to be thankful for . . . air, food . . . ability to stand here and speak . . . we need to be more thankful . . . for existence itself . . . “
“Now, I certainly do appreciate . . . I do appreciate the idea God being so holy that we must have a mediator is beautiful, in fact its quite humbling, and I will be quite frank with you, I find it hard to listen to that 15 or 12 minutes of sermon, and not feel emotionally impressed.” Abdullah Kunde
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abdullah kunde is looking at it from the perspective of a limited pagan god who has no choice but to sacrifice himself LIKE every other human being has been doing. aztecs, egyptians etc etc
today there is a pagan religion which say god needs a created body to forgive sins and mandate of sacrifice mandates god to take his own . the act is greater than god cause it LIMITS him to either take his life or take peoples life
what kind of a human god is this?
when muhammad blood reached his sandles and he was suffering he could have told muslims that “hey, muslims are going to believe in my suffering therefore i have saved them from eternal damnation”
did muhammad say that? muhammad could have told muslims that he suffered so that millions would go to heaven, but did he say that?
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Abdullah Kunde did not say those things, nor put it in that context. He never said he was looking at it from a pagan perspective.
He said it (the message of the Messiah’s cross/atonement) was a beautiful and good concept and that he was emotionally moved.
He interacts properly, without any snarkiness.
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if there was anything which is emotional is when gibson has jesus trip over and mary comes and picks him up. now that is an emotional scene. the “passion” was nothing but sickening .
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LOL, it is also “established historical fact” that Jesus did not rise from his grave. It is also “established historical fact” that, according to Jewish beliefs, he failed as the Messiah because he did not bring about the kingdom of God.
Abdullah Kunde’s personal opinion doesn’t change anything. A person can be “emotionally impressed” due to many things. It doesn’t make those things necessarily true. Rational thought and emotional thought do not usually go hand in hand.
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Faiz wrote:
LOL, how exactly do you get to know God “personally”?
Repent and trust in Jesus the Messiah (Al Masih) as Savior and Lord.
Do you chat with him on a daily basis?
Yes, it is called prayer دعا and through reading His Word (The Bible), the Holy Spirit speaks to our hearts.
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How exactly is repenting and trusting in Jesus as…cough…”savior and lord” count as knowing God “personally”? Christian vagueness strikes again!
Prayer is not “chatting”. Chatting implies a back and forth conversation. Does God talk to you? Do you carry on a conversation with him?
Muslims also pray daily. By your logic, by doing that, we know God personally and “chat” with him 5 times daily.
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Salaat صلاه is different than Dua دعا , right?
God speaks to Christians as we read the Scriptures – the Holy Spirit speaks to our hearts.
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what is more important? a bloody ritual murder or the act of sincere repentance ?
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More vagueness. How on earth do you even know that “the holy spirit speaks to our hearts”? Why can’t you people ever give a concise response?
Salaat and dua are different, yes. But, salaat incorporates duas. When a Muslims prays (salaat), he supplicates (dua) to Allah (Glorified and Exalted be He). Therefore, using your logic, Muslims also have a “personal” relationship with Allah.
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i don’t know how he did not know about the ismul3 fa3il for da3aa which is daa3in
yes, you are right, using his logic “daa3in” is calling to Allah.
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Faiz
“Christian vagueness strikes again!”
So your god isn’t so transcendent that we can’t understand or know his real essence? You guys worship a god that you admit you cannot know – you don’t even know if he is worthy of worship, you don’t know what he is because none of his attributes reveal anything about his essence.
You’re pretending that your god offers any certainties.
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”
So your god isn’t so transcendent that we can’t understand or know his real essence? ”
is your gods essence consist of created meat and blood + human soul?
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Actually, the essence of the christian god is love – now we may not be able to comprehend eternal love, but that is his essence.
Now are you ever going to explain the tawhid? Others have tried and failed miserably.
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then your god is forced to love satan even when he is punishing him. can you explain how you know this essense of your god is “love” when your jesus was just a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a god he was not equal to because he had to reduce his powers to enter time and space?
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robert2016
This is what happens when you believe in a god that you cannot possibly know and whose revelations of himself may or may not actually reflect who he is and what his essence is.
God’s punishment is the revelation of his full glory – not because he is wicked, just that by the glory of his nature nothing can behold him. If he sees Jesus in your heart he sees his own glory reflected back to him and you are embraced in his eternal love. Nothing else can stand in the presence of his glory but his own reflection.
Hope that explains it.
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“God’s punishment is the revelation of his full glory – not because he is wicked, just that by the glory of his nature nothing can behold him. If he sees Jesus in your heart he sees his own glory reflected back to him and you are embraced in his eternal love. Nothing else can stand in the presence of his glory but his own reflection.”
god punishes satan because god is unable to love satan and his glory? i bet you don’t even understand what you just said.
your jesus was a finite created flesh and blood being. the soul within him had to go through revamp because finite cannot hold infinite
if god requires an equal to bounce his love back and forth, how is he bouching his love back and forth when humans are not gods equal? how are humans experiencing that essence?
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correction :
god punishes satan because god is unable to stop loving satan ? i bet you don’t even understand what you just said.
“God’s punishment is the revelation of his full glory – not because he is wicked, just that by the glory of his nature nothing can behold him. If he sees Jesus in your heart he sees his own glory reflected back to him and you are embraced in his eternal love. Nothing else can stand in the presence of his glory but his own reflection.”
god loves satan becasue god is love and he makes love to his partners within trinity
so love love love to each other. but when god is punishing satan god is UNABLE to stop loving satan, right?
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Oh really? So your “loving” god will burn anyone who doesn’t believe in him in hell for eternity? Christian nonsense strikes again!
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faiz
“Oh really? So your “loving” god will burn anyone who doesn’t believe in him in hell for eternity? Christian nonsense strikes again!”
LOL!
And your god will burn anyone in hell for eternity just because he willed their sin. Remember, you guys don’t have free will, so if you sin and go to hell, it’s entirely your god’s will. Nonsense indeed.
My confusion about your god’s bizarro oneness-maybe-but-who-knows tawhid is not my fault according to your theology.
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“And your god will burn anyone in hell for eternity just because he willed their sin. Remember, you guys don’t have free will, so if you sin and go to hell, it’s entirely your god’s will. Nonsense indeed.”
do you create your own sin independent of your god ?
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LOL, nice job of avoiding the topic and changing subjects!
You’re the one who claims that your god is “loving”. Where is the “love” in burning people for eternity? Talk about “bizarro love”!
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LOL, nice job at avoiding the topic. That’s what Christians apologists are good at.
You Christians are the ones who claim that you have a “personal” relationship with God. But then why can’t you explain what that means? It seems to me that you people the are ones “pretending that your god offers any certainties”! Your entire false religion is based on vague promises.
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“Repent and trust in Jesus the Messiah (Al Masih) as Savior and Lord.”
Thanks for putting the Anglicized Arabic for messiah Ken. I found that particularly helpful.
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Read the New Testament slowly from Matthew 1:1 all the way until Revelation 22 to the end and ask God to reveal Himself to you, and maybe you will experience what we have experienced.
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LOL, what a load of crap. I have read the New Testament, and I have found nothing impressive or had any “experience” other than to dismiss it as a false book full of contradictions and nonsense.
Perhaps if you did with the Quran what you want me to do with the Bible, you would have the same “experience”?
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Faiz, Ken Temple
Ken Temple has sold his thinking capability and thinks he and his religion are the only ones who have “experience”. It amazes me that this highly intelligent fellow and friend Ken thinks he and his people are the only people who have that “experience”.
May be he has not visited a voodoo shrine, Sikh Temple, Hindu Temple, Pastor Eddie Lee Long and Jimmy Swaggart who are sex offenders Churches, Pastor T.B. Joshua of Nigeria who is a fraud and Ken will realize they have the “experience” more than him.
“Experience” is nothing for Satan can deceive people into believing they are “experiencing” God.
The only nonsense Ken will say his “experience” is the true one without any proof.
The Quran said before reading the Quran, praying or doing anything “seek refuge to Allah the God of Abraham against satan the cursed one”
When you experience anything you know it is obviously not from satan because you cursed him(satan) and sought refuge to Allah the God of Abraham.
Despite this, Muslims don’t go preaching they have seen God. The Bible said God is invincible and immortal and God will not die and no one can see God.
Thanks.
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Good points brother Intellect.
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bro, he wants you to put tawakkul in some random jinn who appears with holes in his hands and feet.
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Yikes!
Or maybe I’ll see Jesus in my cereal?
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bro, which cereal is that? corn flakes?
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No, either Cocoa Puffs or Waffle Crisp. Yummy…
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I did read it all many times, even in the original Greek. Now I’m a Muslim.
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Ken Temple
You said;
Salaat صلاه is different than Dua دعا , right?
God speaks to Christians as we read the Scriptures – the Holy Spirit speaks to our hearts.
I say;
Most idol worshipers believe in God as the ultimate and add other Gods and they believe the Holy Spirit speaks to their hearts. It is no different than your Holy Spirit because they do believe their spirit is Holy.
Voodoos deal with Holy Spirit all the time.
Thanks.
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Ken Temple
Before you are sure of your “experience” is not from satan, the cursed one but from the God of Abraham, you have to curse satan first and seek refuge in one God of Abraham as the Quran advices us to be doing always and keep cursing satan and seeking refuge in the God of Abraham.
If you experience something as a Muslim, you know and you are sure that it is coming from the only one God of Abraham who is alone.
Any “experience” is demonic and from satan especially the ones that deal with human blood or God’s blood if God has blood is another debate.
Voodoo and most idol worshipers sacrifice blood to “experience” the Holy Spirit. Any body “experiencing” his spirit is a Holy one according to him.
The Bible said God is invincible anyway, so if you see something or hear something it might not be God but satan or jinn or other demonic creatures.
Com to Islam and curse the demons and satan and seek refuge in the only one God of Abraham first to be sure you have a good “experience”.
Thanks.
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Ken
Well no Muslim has even attempted to answer my questions about allah. Kind of funny Muslims don’t want to talk about their god, only attack the True Triune God of scripture.
So Ken I will leave you to play with the Muslims. But if you can get them to answer that would be great.
. Is Allah one in every sense of the word ONE?
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Just a Christian (Crazy Hippy?),
Don’t run away now just when the conversation is getting interesting! I have some questions that need answering!
What on earth do you mean by “every sense”? There is only One God, Allah. That is what Muslims believe. He is All-Powerful, Ever-Living and All-Sufficient. Is that the answer you are seeking?
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The question is simple enough. Is allah ONE in every sense of the world ONE. Like there is ONE tree, or ONE pencil on my desk?
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Correction … World should be WORD every sense of the Word One
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That question has already been answered. There is only One God, Allah.
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Now, Crazy Hippy, perhaps you can answer my questions that your fellow apologists Ken and D have failed to answer. See above.
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Faiz
What question is that? And when are you going to explain your tawhid? How can you know your god’s essence is “oneness” when you can’t know your god’s essence?
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I already explained it. See above. Now, can you answer my questions?
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Faiz yes there is only one God that is the Triune God of scripture he is the ONLY ONE GOD. Thats not my question. You say this one god of yours is ONE and not Triune. I”m asking is he ONE in every sense of the word ONE like one pencil, one book, one tree, one human being?
And I will be glad to answer any question you have as soon as you answer my question.
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What aren’t you getting? He is ONE GOD that is not “triune” but rather ONE. In other words, He is ONE in every sense of the word, because there is nothing like Him.
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Fiaz thank you for finally answering my question, the only Muslim to answer it. Now lets look at your answer.
You wrote…
He is ONE in every sense of the word, because there is nothing like Him.
My response: SO then allah has only one attribute at one time? For instance he can only be all knowing to the exclusion of all his other attributes, and only have another attribute if he discards his attribute of all knowing etc…?
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Just a christian
“My response: SO then allah has only one attribute at one time? For instance he can only be all knowing to the exclusion of all his other attributes, and only have another attribute if he discards his attribute of all knowing etc…?”
That’s a great question.
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“My response: SO then allah has only one attribute at one time? For instance he can only be all knowing to the exclusion of all his other attributes, and only have another attribute if he discards his attribute of all knowing etc…?”
can someone explain how this guy derived those questions from this sentence:
::::He is ONE in every sense of the word, because there is nothing like Him.::::::
??????
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God is One Being. Attributes are not “being” or “persons”. You are mixing attributes to being or person. Every being or person including God can have multiple attributes and still be one being. The attributes are features/names/characteristics but each is not the being Himself.
God’s word is not God Himself, God’s mercy is not God Himself, we would have been polytheists like Mormons and Trinitarians to believe so.
Any one who thinks an attribute is a being or person is the most stupid person in this world. ALLAH IS ONE BEING. Not 99 beings. To ask a question and think and attribute is being is very naïve.
Thanks.
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Intellect wrote…
“God is One Being. Attributes are not “being” or “persons”. You are mixing attributes to being or person. Every being or person including God can have multiple attributes and still be one being. The attributes are features/names/characteristics but each is not the being Himself.”
My response So since as you say “Every BEING or Person INCLUDING GOD’ can have a multiple of attributes, then allah and his oneness in his attributes is like US.
THanks for SHIRKEN IT.
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Faiz come out come out where ever you are. Funny your the one who begged me not to go and now POOF with one question you scurry away lol.
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Lol, you really are a crazy hippy. I have other things to do. I’ll be with you shortly, InshaAllah. We don’t all have too much time on our hands. 😉
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Fiaz, it’s hippy dippy crazy is sam
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God is One Being. Attributes are not “being” or “persons”. You are mixing attributes to being or person. Every being or person including God can have multiple attributes and still be one being. The attributes are features/names/characteristics but each is not the being Himself.
God’s word is not God Himself, God’s mercy is not God Himself, we would have been polytheists like Mormons and Trinitarians to believe so.
Any one who thinks an attribute is a being or person is the most stupid person in this world. ALLAH IS ONE BEING. Not 99 beings. To ask a question and think and attribute is being is very naïve.
Thanks.
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Intellect wrote…
“God is One Being. Attributes are not “being” or “persons”. You are mixing attributes to being or person. Every being or person including God can have multiple attributes and still be one being. The attributes are features/names/characteristics but each is not the being Himself.”
My response So since as you say “Every BEING or Person INCLUDING GOD’ can have a multiple of attributes, then allah and his oneness in his attributes is like US.
THanks for SHIRKEN IT.
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Intellect so allah is like us in that he has many attributes LOL.
He is like a laptop in that it has many attributes.
So for allah not being like anything he oh sorry IT sure seems to be like a lot of stuff in that it has many attributes lol.
SHIRKIN IT.
But you know whats funny, is that there is ONLY ONE TRIUNE BEING and that is GOD.
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“Faiz yes there is only one God that is the Triune God of scripture he is the ONLY ONE GOD. Thats not my question. You say this one god of yours is ONE and not Triune. I”m asking is he ONE in every sense of the word ONE like one pencil, one book, one tree, one human being?”
when you say “one ” do you mean “one what” ???????????
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Intellect
“Every being or person including God can have multiple attributes and still be one being. The attributes are features/names/characteristics but each is not the being Himself.”
Your god only has 99 attributes. Thinks about that….an infinite being with only 99 characteristics. I think that even my pet hamster had more than that and I know that I probably do as well.
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D
Learn Islam. It states 99 names of Allah. It is names of Allah that describes Him. We use to say since His names describes Him, then it is his attributes/features/characteristics. That is not all His attributes because He punishes the wrong people as well but if you learn Islam very well you will know that the punishing the wrong will be in Justice. The 99 names has to be learnt in depth before one can argue against it.
Just A Christian
You said;
You wrote…
He is ONE in every sense of the word, because there is nothing like Him.
I say;
This question is the most dumbest question I have ever seen since my existence on this earth. What a dumb question?
It is just like me asking is the laptop I am typing on is ONE in every sense of the word, because there is nothing like my laptop? We know the keyboard of laptops are not laptops themselves and cannot be counted as one laptop even though they are part of laptop.
I thought you are intelligent like Ken Temple. Ken Temple will never ask this silly question. We were with him here for a long time and he never asked this question.
Thanks.
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D
Don’t you see what he did, HE COMMITTED SHIRK and didn’t even know it lol
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D
Another dumb question. Allah did not say He does not have other names, attributes or characteristics other the 99 names. It is just scholars who study the Quran and extracted the names He referred to Himself. It does not mean I cannot call God any Good name. Apart from the 99 names specified we can call Allah any God name and it is ok.
We can use any Good characteristics that befits Allah and we do it everyday if even it is not part of the 99 attributes.
Thanks.
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Just A Christian
I did not compare laptop to God. No. I just tried to come to your level in that NAME OR ATTRIBUTE OF GOD IS NOT GOD HIMSELF BECAUSE GOD IS A BEING. I AM JUST EXPLAINING ONE BEING TO YOU. AND MULTIPLE ATTRIBUTES TO YOU.
When God said He is One it means 1 being. Every person is a being. So you 3 persons God are 3 beings and you and Mormons are polytheist in having multiple persons as your God. You just limited your God to 3 persons. Your God cannot be 4 persons or 2 persons. What a limitation your God has?
Our God is 1 as He Himself said He is and that is all and full stop, period(.). We respect that. No where did God say “I am a Triune God”. I have been providing verses from the Bible where God said “I Yahweh I am 1, only and alone and nothing is like me”
It obvious God is a being because He exists, have consciousness like us. It is a fact but not comparison. It is also a fact that God attribute/name/feature/characteristics like his word or mercy is not He God Himself and not a being or person.
I am just using my laptop and keyboard to explain how a laptop keyboard is not a laptop itself and God attribute is not God Himself because your questions demands that.
Tinitarians used egg, yolk, steam gas etc. to try and explain their God and they failed miserable but I am doing that here but to explain One for you.
Thanks.
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Intellect you wrote….
“Every person is a being. So you 3 persons God are 3 beings”
So Allah is like us in that we are one being and one person?
Thats called SHIRK DUDE.
See we Christians don’t commit shirk, because we say there is nothing like God who is ONE BEING three persons. Can you point to anything that is like that?
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“See we Christians don’t commit shirk, because we say there is nothing like God who is ONE BEING three persons. Can you point to anything that is like that?”
you have persons in your god who love each other. wife and husband love each other so you think that love exists between father and sophia and spirit
so we see words “father” “son ” and “ghost”
these are human terms and you have “one family” loving the other
you people are the biggest dirty shirkists on the planet.
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“See we Christians don’t commit shirk, because we say there is nothing like God who is ONE BEING three persons. Can you point to anything that is like that?”
why did “divine revelation” change “sophia” to “logos” when jesus was originally female persona in trinity?
yhwh and his female hokmah along with the ghost
so you orignally had husband and wife relationship in “yhwh” why then did it change to “father” and “son”
?
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is your “one god” a “one what” and his that conscious or unconscious what?
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Thank you brother Intellect for answering D and JAC.
Now, will the Christians answer my questions or will they continue to try and fail?
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Faiz you should be rebuking Intellect for committing shirk not thanking him.
He said allah is like every being and person who has multiple attributes in their oneness. Shame on you
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Just A Christian
You said;
Faiz you should be rebuking Intellect for committing shirk not thanking him.
He said allah is like every being and person who has multiple attributes in their oneness. Shame on you
I say;
You forgot you said God is man?
You forgot you said God died like a man for your sins?
You forgot you said Jesus a Son is God? No Son/son can be God. God is not Son/son to anyone
You forgot you said Jesus as God went to toilet and have a smelly shit?
You forgot you said Jesus as God was beaten by the Roman to death?
You forgot you said God stayed in the woman womb which the Bible said is dirty for nine months?
You forgot you compared God to pig by saying Jesus as God sucks a woman breast?
How dare you criticize me who is trying to tell you God is 1 as He Himself said He is and nothing else and full stop, period, dot(.).
Yes, any one who do not know that God is a being i.e. Divine being and we are Human beings but we and God are all beings because we exist and have intellect, consciousness, etc. and any one who do not know that is big fool and an idiot. I did not compare man to God as you have been doing in your Trinity doctrine.
I just said God said He is One, and His attributes/names/features/characteristics etc. are more like we human beings as beings have more characteristics.
I have more list for you.
Faiz is a Muslim and he and Christians like Ken Temple knows what I mean, and Ken will not say all those you said. YES WE HUMAN ARE BEINGS AND GOD AS DIVINE IS A BEING. IT IS ONLY A FOOL WHO WILL SAY IT IS COMPARISON. IT IS NOT COMPARISON BECAUSE NO ONE HAS SEEN GOD.
COMMON SENSE WILL TELL YOU THAT GOD EXISTS AND HAS INTELLECT, CONSCIOUSNESS JUST LIKE HUMAN AND IT DOES NOT MEAN COMPARISM.
COMPARISON IS WHEN YOU SAY GOD IS A MAN OR GOD BECAME MAN AS THE TRIINITARIANS ARE DOING. SHAME LIES IN THE HEART OF TRINITARIANS FOR COMPARIING GOD TO MAN
Thanks
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Yahweh of the OT is not triune, freaky god-man thing, 3 for the price of 1, etc.
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You have no idea what yahweh is nor what your god is – your theology says that you cannot possibly know what or who your god is. faiz thinks your god’s “oneness” is both his essence and an attribute and your theology says that you can’t possibly know the former whilst the latter tells you nothing about former. It’s too convoluted for you guys and for me. No one gets it because it makes no sense.
You guys are not even able to explain tawhid.
I guess that since none of you guys are even able to come close to explaining who and what your god is, the question of whether we worship the same god is a dumb one. You don’t know who you worship.
BTW, you guys do know that particles exist in more than one place at the same time don’t you?
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Faiz
“He is All-Powerful”
Your god is certainly not all powerful – he is incapable of existing in more than one place at the same time in different forms.
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was jesus existing in hell before he came down to earth or does he choose to go down to earth?
if he chooses to go down to earth , then there was a point in time when he wasn’t in hell?
so jesus is not all powerful because he can’t be in hell at the same time?
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is jesus currently existing in hell in a different form????
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robert2016
Are you ever going to explain your tawhid? Can you even explain it?
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you are a pancake
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I guess I will have to go through life with no one to explain the tawhid to me.
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beth grove said that jesus hid from the jews because it was not his time. yet muhammad being mere mortal was able to take the stones and suffer and still live. jesus, your god was a limited coward.
beth knows God in islam is all powerful and in control of everything yet she still asks like a dumb christian
“can’t God in islam run away like jesus”
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robert2016
Are you 7 years old?
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no, but your god was.
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We’ve explained it but u don’t want to understand. God is One and Only, Yahweh of the OT and Allah in the Quran.
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Yahweh never says that he has 99 attributes, nor that he can’t enter his creation.
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LOL, so your god can exist in the universe? If so, then you are limiting him.
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Faiz
“LOL, so your god can exist in the universe? If so, then you are limiting him.”
Don’t be bloody stupid. He can exist wherever he wants. Yours can’t because, well, you just don’t know why because you have no idea who or what you worship.
All you have are 99 glimpses of him/it/her (including his “oneness”) that may not reflect his true nature.
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“Don’t be bloody stupid. He can exist wherever he wants. Yours can’t because, well, you just don’t know why because you have no idea who or what you worship.”
okay, so he can exist in the sun and we can bow and worship the sun, right? the sun gave jesus light and it has outlived your man god. so the sun must contain god in it, right?
you said “he can exist wherever he wants”
okay, does that mean he is no currently in existence everywhere? or is he currently everywhere including the fires of hell? if he currently is not everywhere and must go/stoop down, then he is limited in the sense that he has to go to location.
so which is it?
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robert2016
“okay, does that mean he is no currently in existence everywhere? or is he currently everywhere including the fires of hell? if he currently is not everywhere and must go/stoop down, then he is limited in the sense that he has to go to location.”
It means he can exist wherever he wants. Simple.
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“It means he can exist wherever he wants. Simple.”
in other words if he exists on the earth then the earth must be worshipable , right?
when will you replace the cross with a globe?
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“It means he can exist wherever he wants. Simple.”
he can exist in an idol to and that will throw away the 10 commandments. i wonder who wrote the 10 commandments? if moses thought his god was in a fire, then what was his beef with idolaters? none of them worshipped the created idol , but the spirit in the idol.
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and don’t forget that the only way your limited and pagan god could forgive is through making a limited human body for himself. what does that tell you about your god??????
your god can’t chat with you uncle he don’t wear male clothing lol
unless he don’t shit and pass gas like you.
think about it
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LOL, the only one being stupid is you, dude. You are the one who believes that God came down as a man and lived with human limitations.
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Faiz
“LOL, the only one being stupid is you, dude. You are the one who believes that God came down as a man and lived with human limitations.”
God can do whatever he wants – nothing stupid about that. You think you can know god’s capabilities when you don’t even know who it is you worship.
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“God can do whatever he wants – nothing stupid about that. You think you can know god’s capabilities when you don’t even know who it is you worship.”
god is all seeing and capable of losing his sight which is “all seeing” ?
yes or no. if you say “yes” then you worship a disabled god, right?
if god can do whatever he wants, then he can forgive without murdering his created “sinless” body, right?
if god can do whatever he wants, then his justice is not cornered and he can forgive whenever he want without bloody murder of his created finite flesh , right?
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Yes, He certainly can, but the question is would He? If He sent so many prophets to teach mankind that He is incomparable to humanity, and then decided to come down as a man with human limitations, is He is not contradicting Himself?
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Faiz
“If He sent so many prophets to teach mankind that He is incomparable to humanity, and then decided to come down as a man with human limitations, is He is not contradicting Himself?”
Does the quran say that the purpose of the prophets was to teach mankind that he was incomparable to humanity? The bible says that prophets were sent for many reasons such as repentance, atonement and so on. And no, Jesus was not a human comparable to other humans – even the quran says that.
Again, though, you have no basis on which to claim that you know what god would, or could do because you have absolutely no idea who or what your god is – you just don’t get your own tawhid.
There is no “god is”, according to the tawhid because you cannot know his “is-ness”. All you have are 99 glimpses of what he might be. So thanks for making up things about your god – how pagan of you!
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“And no, Jesus was not a human comparable to other humans – even the quran says that.”
jesus was a human comparable to other humans even one who didn’t have mother and father. jesus was nothing but a human.
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robert2016
“no, but your god was.”
And?
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he was a 7 year old. “grew in wisdom”
meaning gods knowledge was learning.
so god added to his nature? what ? learning ?
god increased himself in learning?
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And he existed at the same time outside the universe. Problem solved.
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“And he existed at the same time outside the universe. Problem solved.”
are you sure you guys aren’t hindus?
i mean you have “inside” and “outside” gods
what the f is going on here?
you have one “inside god” who is learning and an “outside god” who is not learning
and you have person of god changing and becoming weak in knowledge while the other two aren’t weak in knowledge.
you really think “problem solved”?
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can you tell those writers who wrote the ten commandments why they told the jews to stop bowing down and worshipping the animal when worshippers thought that yhwh the bull/animal BROUGHT them out of egypt?
it was the spirit of yhwh in that animal.
all you caifer /animal worshippers are limiting yhwh to bearded jew, but those who wrote the ten commandments were pissed off with those who worshipped the golden animal
were were you animal worshippers? you could have told moses that the animal had yhwhs spirit within it.
all those poor souls lost for worshipping yhwh the bull/animal
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He is not “incapable”. He chooses not to be limited by His creation, which apparently you think your god is.
My God is All-Powerful, not to mention Merciful and Compassionate. He accepts people’s sincere repentance and does not require a “blood atonement” like some capricious pagan god.
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Faiz
“He is not “incapable”. He chooses not to be limited by His creation, which apparently you think your god is.”
Wow, just wow. Where does it say that in your quran? I don’T think your god says any such thing.
This is what happens when you worship some who knows what that won’t reveal his essence – you start to make things up to fill in the blanks.
The christian god is not limited by his creation either – he enters at will whilst maintaining his full divinity since he is capable of existing in multiple places and in different forms all at the same time.
All powerfulness is just funny like that. I wish tawhid made more sense, but sorry it just doesn’t.
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what about controller of the heavens and the earth ? or creating the earth? or knowing exactly whats goes on in the eartH?
your hindu god like hindu gods needds to come down and fix things , this is why we see you are obsessed with your god stooping
you write:
The christian god is not limited by his creation either – he enters at will whilst maintaining his full divinity since he is capable of existing in multiple places and in different forms all at the same time.
if “his full divinity” then what is requirement that it needs “forms” ?
you are making it redundant for your god to have “forms” because if god is not limited then he does not need to BECOME anything and reveal his TRUE self?
oh , you will say … but everything will be destroyed
you f-king dolt, which means your god cannot show his true SELF
i.e LIMITED
1.
confined within limits; restricted or circumscribed:
your god can’t show his TRUE self even if he VEIL his powers thats why he needs “forms”
you people are foolish and there is no point in responding to your bs.
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Allah is All-Powerful, so He can do anything He wants. But He has also stated that He is incomparable to His creation (there is nothing like Him). Thus, it follows that He chooses not to be limited by His creation, because that would make Him comparable to His creation.
You said:
“The christian god is not limited by his creation either – he enters at will whilst maintaining his full divinity since he is capable of existing in multiple places and in different forms all at the same time.”
Wow, just wow. How does he “maintain his full divinity” when he clearly was not divine? Jesus prayed, ate, went to the bathroom etc. What kind of “divinity” is this? This is more comparable to pagan myths than to pristine monotheism.
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What hapend Faiz? You talked big and bad and then went all radio silence on me like all the other death lovers
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maybe he’s got a life – unlike you it seems
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he went to read salaah i think.
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LOL, I have other things to do Crazy Hippy. Not all of us have extra time to smoke pot all day!
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Just a Christian, D, Ken Temple
Christians keeps talking about essence, nature, triune etc. which are not being or person but just attributes and “not substance”.
What is nature?
Nature itself is an attribute but not substance or a being or a person and nature by itself does not have weight and occupy space and has no faculty, intellect or consciousness. So nature or essence by itself is not God Himself. It is just an attribute/feature/characteristic of anything and not God alone.
God clearly stated in the Bible He is One, Only and Alone. So His nature is 1 Only and Alone.
I Challenge any Christian to bring me a verse in the Bible that said “God is Triune”, “God is 3 in 1 Person”, “Jesus is God”, “Trinitas Unitas” etc. I will not accept Lord because so many men are called Lord.
I have been given clear verses from the Bible that says God is One, Only and Alone. So that is Gods nature/essence etc.
Definition of nature does not say “Triune”, so you cannot claim you know Gods nature and Muslims do not know. You are utterly confused. Where did nature or essence means “Triune”?
And “God is Triune” cannot be found in the whole Bible either but “God is One” is there many times in the Bible.
How the hell will you say to Muslims who believed “God is One” in the Bible do not know God but you who believed “Triune God” that is not in the Bible?
Definition of Nature( It does not mean Triune God). Essence does not mean Triune God either.
na·ture
/ˈnāCHər/
noun
1. the phenomena of the physical world collectively, including plants, animals, the landscape, and other features and products of the earth, as opposed to humans or human creations.
“the breathtaking beauty of nature”
synonyms: the natural world, Mother Nature, Mother Earth, the environment; wildlife, flora and fauna, the countryside; the universe, the cosmos
“the beauty of nature”
•the physical force regarded as causing and regulating these phenomena.
“it is impossible to change the laws of nature”
2. the basic or inherent features of something, especially when seen as characteristic of it.
“helping them to realize the nature of their problems”
synonyms: essence, inherent/basic/essential qualities, inherent/basic/essential features, character, complexion
“such crimes are, by their very nature, difficult to hide”
•kind, sort, type, variety, category, ilk, class, species, genre, style, cast, order, kidney, mold, stamp, stripe
“experiments of a similar nature”
Source: https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=hMAfV-31L4zF8geQroHwDg&gws_rd=ssl#q=what+is+nature
Thanks.
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M
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Well D, and Ken got to ride out, hope you all enjoyed the show. I took screen shots of Intellect committing shirk multiple times and his brother Faiz thinking him and and posted them on my FB page. For all to see lol.
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Ali Ataie
2 hrs ·
Trying to set up a Farsi Muslim/Christian discussion event in the Bay Area. Can’t find a Farsi speaking Christian willing to do this. Any suggestions?
ken, where r u?
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Oh no, whatever shall we do? 😉
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Just A Christian
I have been saying this same thing to Ken Temple for years and he understands the truth and never posted it on his FB. I thank you for doing that because any intelligent Christians will read it and convert to Islam. You think attributes are persons or beings, but that is not the case and it will prevent the Christian from repeating “Muslims worship 99 Gods” .
That is what you were up to here with your dumbest question- “is the oneness of God is one in every sense”? what dumb question is that? I have to use my laptop and tell you the keyboard is not the laptop and so you cannot count the keyboard as one laptop.
In the same way you cannot count God’s attributes which are not God by themselves as God. I have been telling Ken this for years and he never pasted it on his FB. I will be happy if you post all my comments. Now I shut up your dumbest question with my replies and all that you can do is to twist my comments for your whims and caprice. Any intelligent Christian will understand it.
Thanks.
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Intellect, Intellect, Intellect not very good at using that whole intellect thing are you. Funny all the other Muslims realized the implications of the question and refused to answer. That should have been a clue for you.
You really don’t know your own theology do you. Since you committed big shirk big time and didn’t even see it, I thought I would point it out to you.
The doctrine of Tahweed has three principals…
1. Oneness of Lordship (tawheed ar-rububiyyah),
2. Oneness of Godship (tawheed al-uluhiyyah),
3. Oneness of Names and Attributes (tawheed asma wa sifat).
I asked you about the first principle of Tawheed and you violated the 3rd principle of Tawheed, Oneness of Names and Attributes. How did you do that you might ask? Well in order to describe your gods oneness you made the statement “Every being or person including God can have multiple attributes and still be one being.” (Not sure if you think that allah is a person or not? Maybe you can elaborate on that. But either way the damage is done)
So allah is like every other being or person in that he has multiple attributes. So allah is the same as everything else in that he is a complex unity. VIOLATION
But you weren’t satisfied you went on to prove that allah is like everything else in that he is a complex unity by even comparing allah to a Laptop computer lol. VIOLATION
Still not satisfied you made this statement….
“God’s word is not God Himself,”
So allahs word is not allah, and the Quran is allahs word, and the Quran is eternal, so not only do you have two eternal “Beings” or two eternal things, but allah is like the Quran and the Quran is like Allah so another VIOLATION.
See how irrational your false doctrine of Tawheed gets. In order to explain it you have to violate it.
Now compare that to the true logical doctrine of the Trinity. Yes we say God is a complex unity like everything else is a complex unity. But he is nothing like anything in creation in that he is one being that is three distinct persons (not attributes). These three persons all share fully the unique divine NAME all three are fully GOD. This solves the dilemah of the ONE and The Many, something I’m sure you are not aware of.
So just to recap, if Allahs oneness is a complex unity then he is like everything else (which you admitted) then that is a violation of Tawheed in that there is nothing like allah. If allah’s word is not allah then you have two eternals and allah is not even unique in that he is eternally alone. So you allah is sounding rather ordinary in that there are lots of things like him, and at least one other thing that is eternal like him.
So that is all for now, perhaps you can clarify if allah is a person or not? If you say yes then that opens up even more shirk, if you say no well then you have a real problem.
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Intellect’s ‘problem’ if he actually has one (which I very much doubt) pales into nothingness besides your belief in three brings each of which is fully a god yet you insist there is only one God.
Such a belief defies common sense, reason, mathematics, monotheism and the Revelation given to Moses and Muhammad.
LOL
Not
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Paul so your argument against the doctrine of the trinity is that there is nothing like a triune being LOL> Yah there is nothing like GOD unlike your Tawheedy God which seems to be just like everything else lol.
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My argument is clear:
your belief defies common sense, reason, mathematics, monotheism and the Revelation given to Moses and Muhammad. All in all a mega fail.
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Putting your straw man aside. BTW Paul why is it every time you attack Christianity you attack what we don’t believe i.e “your belief in three brings”. I thought you were a “Christian for 15 years, so you should know better than that.
So because there is nothing like a Triune being (nothing like God) it does not make sense to you, because there is nothing like God it is against reason, and mathematics?
Funny thats just what Atheist say, that the belief in God does not make sense, is against reason and even mathematics. Your not an atheist are you?
So God has to make sense to you and be reasonable, and obey the laws of mathematics.
So tell me does allah obey the laws of mathematics?
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“So God has to make sense to you and be reasonable, and obey the laws of mathematics.”
so why do you put number 3 in him? it is your god who is 3. 1 + 1 + 1 = 3
lol
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Robert\ Paul So allah obeys the laws of mathematics?
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Lol don’t be silly, and stop evading the point. Your faiths own creed says that three persons are all fully God. Even my simple maths gives me three gods. It makes no difference if the creed just adds on the claim that there is nonetheless one God. Three is three,
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i’m telling you that you as a christian has to think of 3 separate persons
1 2 3
so your brains need to think of 3 separate persons who send and are sent
1 2 3
do you get that?
3 separate persons .
whatever superglue is joining the 3 together does not take away the fact that you believe in 3 separate persons
it is your god who obey mathematical law of addition.
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It is not a straw man thing. Orthodox belief (see the Athanasian Creed for example) is quite insistent that each person of the trinity is fully God.
That being the case there are three distinct beings. Oh yes, there is just one God. Lol
That defies common sense, reason, mathematics, monotheism and the Revelation given to Moses and Muhammad.
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Paul I’m really trying to understand your argument against the doctrine of the Trinity.
You keep insisting that since we believe that the one being GOD is three distinct persons this means that each person of the trinity is a separate being that is God..
If this is correct then I have to ask WHY?
Why does each person in the Triune God have to be a separate and distinct GOD? Instead of what Christians believe that there is only ONE God who is three distinct persons. Each of which share the fully divine attribute of GOD.
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“Why does each person in the Triune God have to be a separate and distinct GOD?”
define person. is jesus a person in trinity? is he identical twin or different than his father? does the son do the will of the father in the trinity?
does the father send his child? is the child the sent and the father the sender?
the father is the top head in trinity while the other two are lesser in rank
the father can order the son while the son cannot order the father
because the son has lesser rank he still has to allow his father to box him up in the boxing ring because he is subservient to the father even though he has access to the same divine nature
in todays day and age, i am asking only one question
how can you be part of the abrahamic faiths?
how?
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what Christians believe is contradictory and incoherent as I have already detailed. I not surprised you are a confused person. In your shoes I would muddled up.
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So Paul then the only way you have to beat that strawman to death is by committing shirk. The only way you can say that each person of the trinity must be a separate being is because we are One being one person. So if that is the case then Alah is no different in that regard then his creation. GOOD JOB even attacking a straw man you have to commit shirk.
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Also you commit idolatry by worshiping created being: you must admit that Jesus was fully human. Worshiping a man is blasphemous and a great sin.
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Sorry Paul my bad I really do need to get new glasses. Thought you wrote “Three BEINGS’ not Three BRINGS”. So continue on
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Athanasian Creed says each person of the trinity is fully God. Yet then says there is only one God.
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Except you are leaving out the distinction between substance/essence and persons. The Oneness of God has to do with the substance / essence of God that is shared by the three persons. It is not a contradiction, because they are two different categories.
If we said “three substances and three persons” that is a contradiction, but because the doctrine is “One God as to substance in three persons” – there is no contradiction.
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“substance ”
“essence”
“persons”
“distinction”
jesus was praying to “substance” lol
“my substance is greater than i”
lol
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So lets get this clear: you deny Jesus was God ten?
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the funny thing is jesus is person which is not 1 substance/what/god.
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“Now compare that to the true logical doctrine of the Trinity. Yes we say God is a complex unity like everything else is a complex unity. But he is nothing like anything in creation in that he is one being that is three distinct persons (not attributes). These three persons all share fully the unique divine NAME all three are fully GOD. This solves the dilemah of the ONE and The Many, something I’m sure you are not aware of.”
you mean each person is a conscious self and each person has back and forth conversations with each other?
is the torah “the word ” of god or ARE 3 speakers speaking the torah?
did jesus speak
father speak
ghost speak
the torah ?
are 3 who’s speaking the torah? if you have 3 conscious persons within your god, then you have 3 minds and 3 speakers?
can you tell me how 3 speakers = 1 speaker?
how many speakers spoke the torah?
remember this is your “logical” trinity
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“These three persons all share fully the unique divine NAME all three are fully GOD. ”
these 3 triplets which are numerically different from each other share x?
you have 3 gods having access to same sight, power and knowledge and yet they are different from each other? in “rank relationship” when each person has access to the same “name”
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3 triplets?!! Lol
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“But he is nothing like anything in creation in that he is one being that is three distinct persons (not attributes).”
Sounds like a mental patient with personality disorder
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Orthodox Christianity states that Jesus had two wills, human and divine. So, correct me if my maths is wrong, God must have FOUR wills in total.
Nothing strange about that. On no.
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it’s all confusing
they are 100 % persons in trinity which = to 300 % persons altogether
then there is “divine nature” which is 100% divine nature
they have one of the 100 % percent persons CHANGING and not knowing the mind of the other 100 % person.
so they have changing person praying to the 100 % nature /1 what/1 god
try to figure all this out.
you have something like 400 % everything + 100 % human nature = 500 %
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Just A Christian
You said;
So just to recap, if Allahs oneness is a complex unity then he is like everything else (which you admitted) then that is a violation of Tawheed in that there is nothing like allah. If allah’s word is not allah then you have two eternals and allah is not even unique in that he is eternally alone. So you allah is sounding rather ordinary in that there are lots of things like him, and at least one other thing that is eternal like him.
I say;
Tauhid or Tawheed is an Arabic word and it simply means “1 God”. Where did you learn that Tauhid of Lordship from? Tawheed of names from? From a Christian site I guess.
We do not worship Tawheed but we worship Allah who is one. Allah is not Tauhid or Tawheed. Tauhid or Tawheed means “1 God”. Tauhid is an explanation, so you cannot say Tauhid is Allah Himself as so many Muslims never heard the word Tauhid but they are Muslims and worship Allah alone.
Tauhid is unlike Trinity which is a God of the Christians Trinitarians and Trinitarian has to believe 3 persons 1 God.
Muslims on the other hand can be Muslims by believing God of Abraham is 1 without knowing what Tauhid is. So many Muslims have never heard the word Tauhid and they believed God of Abraham is One and only and they are Muslims.
faire attention; I AM REPEATING
ALLAH’S WORD IS NOT ALLAH HIMSELF BUT HIS WORD, ALLAH’S MERCY, LOVE, KNOWLEDGE etc. ARE NOT ALLAH HIMSELF BUT HIS CHARACTERISTICS, ATTRIBUTES, NAMES etc.
ALLAH EXISTS AND IS CONSCIOUS WITH INTELLECT, INTELLIGENCE etc. and HE CREATED US WE HUMANS WITH THOSE QUALITIES AS HIM. DID YOU GET THAT? IT DOES NOT MEAN WE ARE COMPARABLE TO HIM. NO. IT IS JUST A FACT GOD CREATED US WITH CONSCIOUSNESS AND INTELLECT WHICH HE HAPPENS TO HAVE. GOD CREATED US IN HIS OWN IMAGE SAID THE BIBLE. IT DOES NOT MEAN WE ARE LIKE GOD. WE DO NOT POSSESS HIS INFINITE, IMMORTALITY, INVINCIBLITY etc. but we are HUMAN BEINGS AND GOD IS A DIVINE BEING.
SAYING WE ARE BEING BECAUSE WE EXIST AND GOD IS A BEING I.E. DIVINE BECAUSE HE EXIST IS NOT COMPARISON.
GOD IS ONE BEING ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE. HIS ATTRIBUTES CAN BE WITH HIM FROM ETERNITY BUT THE ATTRIBUTES/NAMES/CHARACTERISTICS etc. are WHAT THEY ARE BUT NOT A BEING OR GOD.
WORD IS NOT A BEING AND MERCY IS NOT A BEING. WHERE DID YOU EVER GET THE IDEA THAT GOD’S LOVE IS A BEING? OR GOD’S MERCY IS A BEING?
LOVE OR MERCY BY THEMSELVES DO NOT HAVE CONSCIOUSNESS SO THEY ARE NOT BEINGS.
GOD IS ONE AND HAS CONSCIOUSNESS AND EXISTS AND SO HE IS A BEING. I.E. DIVINE BEING.
HIS ATTRIBUTES ARE NOT BEING BUT HIS ATTRIBUTES, SO HIS MERCY OR WORD OR LOVE CAN BE ETERNAL WITH HIM BUT THEY ARE NOT HE HIMSELF.
YOU SHOULD KNOW ALL THESE MY DEAR. THAT IS WHY I USED MY LAPTOP TO MAKE IT SIMPLE FOR YOU. MY LAPTOP IS ONE AND THE KEYBOARD CANNOT BE COUNTED AS ONE LAPTOP BECAUSE A KEYBOARD IS NOT A LAPTOP BUT KEYBOARD.
Ken Temple knows about this as he is a highly learned fellow. Don’t you see he does not bother to participate in this one. It is like I am teaching you. You should know all these.
Spare us with your Tauhid of lordship, tauhid of this, tauhid of that nonsense you copied from a Christians website.
Thanks.
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Intellect we are talking about the DOCTRINE of Tahweed not the meaning of the word. This doctrine of Tahweed took centuries to develop and is extremely complex.
So please learn the subject matter before speaking any further on it. At the very least google it, Wki has a great article on it.
BTW what you can do is print out your response to me, and show it to your Imam and depending on what sect of Islam you practice you may have to run very fast.
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Um, no. The doctrine of Tawheed did not take “centuries” to develop. I think you are confusing Tawheed with trinity. It’s okay. They both start with “T” so maybe you got confused! 😉
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Umm yah it was really man learn the subject material first before you comment.
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Says the guy who knows nothing about the subject material!
Now, could you answer the questions I posed earlier? You were playing hide and seek before, but now that you are hear, the radio silence can be broken. 😉
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lol
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JAC/Crazy Hippy,
You haven’t answered my questions. Ken and D tried, but failed miserably.
What do you you mean that Jesus was “perfect”? Do you mean only in the sense that he did not sin? Or was he “perfect” in other ways as well?
Also, how exactly did Jesus “fulfill” the Law? Does that meant he perfectly obeyed each and every tenet of the Law? What if he violated any of those laws?
How exactly do you get to know God “personally”?
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Radio silence from Christian Land…LOL!
JAC, where are you? Come out, come out where ever you are!
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Faiz
“That just shows how little you know. One of Allah’s 99 Names is Al-Wahid, which literally means…wait for it…wait for it…”THE ONE”!”
Awesome!!!
You are so bloody confused. You said his oneness was his essence but now it’s just an attribute? But your god’s essence is not his attributes!!!
LOL!!
Clearly, you have no idea who or what you worship – your god’s “oneness” is only an attribute that may or may not reflect his essence. You believe in a multipersonal god.
LOL!!!!
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your god is everywhere. even in pagan idols. he is also everywhere including sin. so god is some how present with his mind and person in sinful places
can you worship any idol? you earlier on said god comes in different forms.
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Oh for goodness sake, man! Are you willfully dense or is it something you can’t help? What’s so hard to understand?
Allah’s essence is “Oneness”. It means He is One Being, and that’s it. Not 3-in-1 or 10-in-1 or 1000000-in-1. Get it?
“The One” is also one of His 99 Names. It refers to His Oneness as the Supreme Being, who answers to no one and everyone answers to Him. Get it? It’s really not that difficult, unless your mind has been befuddled by years of Christian logic, I suppose. LOL!
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D, can you try to answer my questions? The other Christians have run away, it seems.
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Faiz
“Allah’s essence is “Oneness”.”
It’s also an attribute which is not his essence – and you cannot know your god’s essence anyway so what on earth are you talking about? Are you saying now that you can know your god’s essence?
Besides, Intellect thinks that an attribute means the same thing as essence which is even more Shirky than you’ve been. It means that your god now has 99 natures and essences – or put another way, he has 99 identities.
LOL!!
Just admit it – your tawhid makes no sense.
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D,
Your rants get more and more hilarious all the time! Of course we know Allah’s “essence”. He has explained it in the Quran many times. He is ONE being. That is His essence.
Tawheed makes sense, just admit it. It’s your trinity 3-in-1 Thanksgiving Day sale that takes the award for most nonsensical religious idea ever invented. No wonder it took centuries for Christians to even agree on its principles. Council after council had to debate this asinine concept, and numerous sects developed as a result. LOL!!
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D
Nature, attribute, qualifies, characteristics, essence, etc. are synonymous and they are not God and cannot be God. They by themselves alone are not substance or do not have weight or occupy space, they do not have consciousness, they by themselves are not beings or persons. I EXPLAIN THIS ABOVE BUT YOU SEEM NOT TO UNDERSTANT IT.
God’s mercy is God’s mercy for God’s sake but not God Himself.
God’s word is God’s word for God’s sake but not God Himself.
God’s mercy is God’s love for God’s sake but not God Himself.
God’s knowledge is God’s knowledge for God’s sake but not God Himself.
The list goes on.
I defined Nature above with the link to the dictionary and it does not mean Triune God or 3 Persons 1 God, so you cannot say you know the nature of God than us when “God is Triune” is not in the Bible but “God is one” is in the Bible by tonnes.
You said;
You are so bloody confused. You said his oneness was his essence but now it’s just an attribute? But your god’s essence is not his attributes!!!
I say;
May be you have to learn English language. Essence is a characteristic and Attribute is a characteristic. It does not matter but both essence and attribute are not God. So that is the most important thing to remember.
The Bible did not say God’s essence is Triune. And Essence was not defined as Triune God and so no one can claim God is Triune.
God is One, Only and Alone can be found in tonnes in the Bible and so God’s attribute/essence/nature/quality/characteristic etc. is One. We can also say God’s nature/attribute/quality/ etc. is Only because He is the Only God and no one else etc.
Only is not God, One is not God but God is Only One. They are nouns, adjectives, etc. qualifying the qualities and who God is but each is not God Himself.
Definition of Attribute- It is also characteristics just like nature and essence.
You and the Mormons believe in Multi-personal God but the Trinitarians God is limited to 3 persons and cannot be 4 or 2 persons while Mormons have more than that.
I have 3 dollars and Donald Trump has multi million dollars, I will be lying to say I have 1 dollar but Donald Trump has multi million dollar man.
We are monotheist as the Bible said clearly God is one and you Trinitarians and Mormons believe in Multi-personal God and that is polytheism. Multi means many and mono means 1, so you worship 3 persons and any person is a being. No person can be a person without being a being.
Ken Temple will say I am comparing God and Man and I will tell him OHHHHH but you said God is Man Jesus and beating to death and are you not comparing God to man. If you do not want us to compare God and man why do you say God is man?
If a man turned into a pig and eating human excreta, why can’t he be compared to pigs? If you do not want God to be compared to man then do not compare God to man yourself by saying God became man or God is man.
noun
noun: attribute; plural noun: attributes
/ˈatrəˌbyo͞ot/
1. a quality or feature regarded as a characteristic or inherent part of someone or something.
“flexibility and mobility are the key attributes of our army”
synonyms: quality, characteristic, trait, feature, element, aspect, property, sign, hallmark, mark, distinction; informal X factor
“he has all the attributes of a top player”
•a material object recognized as symbolic of a person, especially a conventional object used in art to identify a saint or mythical figure.
synonyms: symbol, mark, sign, hallmark, trademark
“the hourglass is the attribute of Father Time”
2. Computing
a piece of information that determines the properties of a field or tag in a database or a string of characters in a display.
Source: https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=vEggV8GBNYeN8Qe_ybRY&gws_rd=ssl#q=what+is+attribute
Thanks
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Intellect
“Nature, attribute, qualifies, characteristics, essence, etc. are synonymous”
LOL!
No they are not the same – these words mean very different things. You have just said that your god has 99 essences and therefore has 99 characters.
This just keeps getting better and better. Now you worship a being with 99 characters or personalities, none of which tell you anything about who your god is.
Even with 99 personalities, you have no idea who or what you worship.
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yawn… what a troll
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The question should be if Christians worship the same God.
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“If god is all-powerful, he is capable of existing in more than one place and more than form all at the same time. It really, really, is not hard.”
i need to take this discussion further. the christians are telling muslims here that god is ALL powerful and every where.
if god is every where then he is in sun, idols, sinful locations etc etc
if god is every where then he must be in the flesh of other humans
god can exist as animal like golden cow
god expressed his love for the israelites by milking them
why can’t we think like this? all one needs is “revelation” and worship the golden animal.
all one needs is to tell one self if god is held by the earth and is everywhere then he does not need to be in pierced bearded jew.
god is everywhere and we can point to where he is .
they would point to thier god and say, “hey god, how was your lecture in the temple today?”
if you allow for the flesh of jezers, why not the sun, idol and the animals?
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Behold Your Gods, O Israel — The Golden Calves of Aaron and Jeroboam
https://isthatinthebible.wordpress.com/2016/04/10/behold-your-gods-o-israel-the-golden-calves-of-aaron-and-jeroboam/
if christians can make “loving relationship” with beared and pierced jew which pops out of essence within trinity , then why not the cow with milking teeth? doesn’t a cow get sacrificed and feed families? isn’t that love? doesn’t it provide milk?
why can one point to bearded PIERCED jew and say, “hey god, how are you? did the jews chase you with stones again? did you hide ?”
how can you POINT to god in LOCATION and time and say the golden calf was not yhwh the mighty bull?
what was moses’ beef with the idol worshippers?
which idol worshipper truly worships the cow? any educated hindu will tell you that the cow is not worshipped but the ghost within it.
so why so much hatred of hindu worship, when you are “twins” in worship?
a cow eats, shits and urinates . jesus eat, crapped and urinated and was taught by his mother the pronunciation of Hebrew alphabet. you have talking donkey in ot so the “angel of the lord” who is god can have a talking cow too.
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“Dude, you don’t even know this basic point of your own theology – your god “is” not his attributes so he “is” not omnipotent, he has the attributes of omnipotence. Yes, that sounds like nonsense to me too, but go figure.”
before you clarify the hogwash you have written do you understand “omnipotence” as ADJECTIVE or noun?
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Hogwash lol
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Do Jesus and Trinitarians worship the same God?
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Jesus claims to be the anointed Messiah of Isaiah 61:1-2 here and the Jews tried to kill Him.
The Trinity doctrine comes naturally from the Deity of Christ, which is clear in the gospels, since the Jewish leaders wanted to kill Him for blasphemy all the time. (see Mark 14:60-64)
14 And Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about Him spread through all the surrounding district. 15 And He began teaching in their synagogues and was praised by all.
16 And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read. 17 And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor.
He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives,
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set free those who are oppressed,
19 To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.” [ Isaiah 61:1-2a ]
20 And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him.
21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”
22 And all were speaking well of Him, and wondering at the gracious words which were falling from His lips; and they were saying, “Is this not Joseph’s son?” 23 And He said to them, “No doubt you will quote this proverb to Me, ‘Physician, heal yourself! Whatever we heard was done at Capernaum, do here in your hometown as well.’” 24 And He said, “Truly I say to you, no prophet is welcome in his hometown. 25 But I say to you in truth, there were many widows in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the sky was shut up for three years and six months, when a great famine came over all the land; 26 and yet Elijah was sent to none of them, but only to Zarephath, in the land of Sidon, to a woman who was a widow. 27 And there were many lepers in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, but only Naaman the Syrian.” 28 And all the people in the synagogue were filled with rage as they heard these things; 29 and they got up and drove Him out of the city, and led Him to the brow of the hill on which their city had been built, in order to throw Him down the cliff. 30 But passing through their midst, He went His way.
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The passage above is from Luke 4:14-30
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more cut and paste comments from Ken.
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In the original post that Paul W. put up; it shows a video made by Lutheran Satire and shows a picture of Jesus on the cross. The offense of the gospel is the offense of the cross/atonement for sin and that every human being is a guilty sinner with no hope of heaven unless you realize your sinfulness and hopelessness without Christ and repent and turn to Jesus the Messiah of the NT. (which includes His Deity and the doctrine of the Trinity flows from that and the Deity of the Holy Spirit and the Oneness of the one true God.)
John McArthur explains why the gospel of Jesus Christ is so offensive and unreasonable to you. I Corinthians 1:18 – the message of the atonement is foolishness to your minds.
Rewind and listen to the whole thing please. (if it starts in the middle)
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“John McArthur explains why the gospel of Jesus Christ is so offensive and unreasonable to you. I Corinthians 1:18 – the message of the atonement is foolishness to your minds.”
quote:
Question: Why are you trusting Paul’s words as a “source?” I have never understood why you accept him as reliable and his interpretations of Jesus as “normative” of early Christianity. He could very well have been writing from Tarsus and making the entire experience with the Risen Christ up, decades later (and of course, he never met Jesus in the flesh, the way his Jerusalem apostles did – the same ones he condemns repeatedly.)
I find Paul to be a shaky source, given the fact that even his alleged conversion has three separate and irreconcilable versions in Galatians and Acts. Unless you believe they CAN or MUST be reconciled, and I somehow doubt that. Or at least I hope you do.
Paul is no authority at all, except on “His” gospel (the one Paul received either through exclusive visions/hallucinations with the risen khrist god-man or through discussions with the Jerusalem apostles, which he claims in various places to have either NEVER consulted, consulted with after 14 years, or to have consulted with almost immediately.)
His assertions that the Jews rejected HIS Gospel – the Gospel of a dying/rising God-spawned demigod named Christus, upon whose blood we believe and are instantly “saved” to a Heaven – are almost certainly TRUE.
He clearly shows, and freely admits, that THIS Gospel was being rejected.
But the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem, by all accounts – by early in the book of Acts and by the early church historians – flourished. So his testimony is tainted, at best.
And that’s the point: We can’t say that jesus was being rejected, but only Paul’s interpretation of him and his message. I submit that we need to make that clear when speaking about the “Gospel” or “Christ” being rejected, since as you so excellently not in your book, Lost Christianities, there were MANY competing faiths of this time, and frankly, I trust the Apostles who knew and walked with Jesus more than Paul, who met him only in dreams.
It seems like the idea of a crucified messiah would have been the least of the stumbling blocks for the Jews when Paul was asking them to believe that not only was the messiah killed, but he was god himself (or a divine being made equal to god).
……………………………….
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The apostle Paul and his letters are trustworthy, inspired, “God-breathed” truth:
Because Paul was an apostle of Jesus Christ, and the gospels and him and all NT books are completely in unity with each other.
Mark 10:45
Matthew 20:28
Mark chapters 8-16 (Jesus’ predictions of the cross and resurrection in Mark 8, 9, and 10) leading to the details of chapters 14, 15, 16.
Luke chapters 22-24
Matthew chapters 26-28
John chapters 18-21
Peter, James and John were in total unity with Paul – as it says in Galatians 2:7-9
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notice that in the earliest letters of paul , paul does not say jeezer PREDICTED his death
mary m in the gospel of john fetches peter and runs to the tomb twice not knowing anything about “flashback” moment about this prediction.
we don’t know if it is mark going into ot and creating prediction for his jeezer and putting it in jeezer mouth.
mark was using and abusing ot /isaiah 53 /psalms and he had to fill in pauls “according to the scriptures”
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Who is Jeezer ?
Robert2016 – your mocking attitude and sometimes ugly cursing and dirty language makes it hard to take you seriously and to answer you.
You don’t seem sincere, because your style is so ugly.
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Ken, that’s funny because you also have been known to have a mocking attitude. And I also haven’t seen you criticize your fellow brothers JAC and D for their mocking attitude. I guess you don’t practice what you preach, eh? 🙂
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where did I have a mocking attitude?
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I did not read everything by them; but I did not notice a mocking attitude from JAC; but then I was not able to keep up with everything. I have work and go to sleep (we in USA are on different time than England, etc.) and picked up the next day with what I thought was relevant.
I don’t read every blog post that Paul W. puts up. I choose the ones I think are most relevant about doctrinal areas between Muslims and Christians that I think have the best opportunity for understanding each other better.
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ken , do go make communion with sam shamoun? do you go to the same church?
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I have actually rebuked Sam Shamoun for anger and mocking and ad hominem and I disagree with him when he goes overboard with focus on dirty stuff. ( I agree with Dr. White on those issues.)
No, we are not in the same area. I think he is in the Chicago area, but I don’t know for sure.
Sam’s content in his articles are good, without the mocking and anger stuff.
But he does quote from Islamic sources.
He sincerely thinks it is ok, based on Scripture where prophets and apostles mocked false teachers and called them hypocrites and snakes, sons of the devil, etc.
I don’t think we have the same authority as apostles and prophets, but I do think we can call people out as heretics, when it is clear; but my main point to him was that he should not do that with Muslims, because Muslims are a different religion and don’t know much about Christianity, and we have such a bad history between the two communities for centuries, we need to do a better job of engaging Muslims with a peaceful and respectful attitude.
I sincerely try to be respectful and I seek to explain the Bible and Christianity.
When Faiz or Intellect or Robert2016 or Burhanaddin or Paul W. say I am lying or spreading un-truths about Islam, they are not realizing that the questions and comments on those issues have to do with seeing Surah 9:29 (and seeing all your explanations of it, etc.) and the application of that in all of history of Islam – from Abu Bakr and Umar onward – the application of Surah 9:29 and Jiziye and Dhimmi – ism are based on that and it does not seem honestly right to claim that Islamic attacks on Byzantine and Persia were just at all. That is not an insult; just an honest assessment of what it seems like to me.
On the issues of the inspiration of the NT, the atonement, the Deity of Christ, the Trinity; it is automatic logic that if we as Christians believe the NT to be true and the final revelation from God; then automatically we don’t believe the Qur’an is inspired or that Muhammad is a prophet. That is not mocking or spreading lies; it is a difference of opinion and holding onto our own Christian revelation/religion.
And you are free not to believe it. But the Muslim world does not allow that freedom of thought, evangelism, and freedom for Muslims to leave Islam and choose for themselves if they think Christianity is true. It seems a contradiction to Surah 109:6 and 2:256.
Where did I do any mocking ?
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“Muslims are a different religion and don’t know much about Christianity”
Thanks Ken.
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You are welcome. You know more than most Muslims because you are a westerner and former Christian.
However, the way you spin things and use liberal scholarship and the way you ask questions implies you didn’t learn why orthodox Christians believe the things that they do. (like ignoring the distinction between person and substance; and ignoring how Christians harmonize the theology of all 27 NT books. )
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Ken I was being sarcastic. Its your sweepingly inaccurate generalisations about Muslims (we ‘know nothing about Christianity’) and Islam (‘its just a religion of rituals and rules’) that discredit what you say, especially after your errors are pointed out to you. But you are not humble enough to learn and advance in knowledge. That is your tragedy as human being.
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Most Muslims don’t know much about Christianity. ( I did not write “you don’t know anything” so you lied there)
Do you deny that? (think of the millions who don’t have internet access, etc.) most know about the Pope and statues to Mary, etc. and think “Son of God” and “Father” means “God took a wife” (and had sex – Estaqrf’allah ! استغفرالله
Even the Qur’an wrongly thought that – Surah 6:101-102; Surah 19:88-92
and most think the council of Nicea was about which books belong in the canon. Even you have had to correct Muslims on that one. Even Yasir Qadhi thought that, until he was corrected by James White.
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now you change your tune and say “most Muslims”
…before you said “Muslims are a different religion and don’t know much about Christianity”
and that includes me, so I didn’t lie.
Ken you have no intellectual credibility with me. You deliberately distort and lie. Why do I bother with you?
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“Because Paul was an apostle of Jesus Christ, and the gospels and him and all NT books are completely in unity with each other.”
how come there is not even one hint in the gospel of luke that baby jeezer faced any danger in and around jerusalem? luke says jeezer went with family every year to temple.
was matthew lying like hillarly clinton?
your “unity” is demolished when one asks “if i had luke alone, could i derive from his wording that baby jeezer was in any danger from earthly powers” ?
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Just because Luke doesn’t mention the things in Matthew, does not mean that they are not true. That is why we have 4 gospels – they all 4 harmonized together, like 4 witnesses of a car accident – one witness on each corner viewing the one event from 4 different angles.
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WHERE IN THE WORDING and sequence of lukes infancy narrative is there any hint that the baby was in danger from the earthly rulers? you are a shameless apologist. i tell you the truth that if you compare the texts side by side and one is thinking to himself , “hold on a second, baby jesus is doing YEARLY trips to jerusalem and lukes gives no hint of DANGER to the child?
hillary christian clinton said the same thing here
if you had the bitches stage speech and did not have cbs EXPOSINg her what impression would you get through her WORDINg?
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“Because Paul was an apostle of Jesus Christ, and the gospels and him and all NT books are completely in unity with each other.”
Not to interject another thread in this scintillating discussion, but if the above is true, then why did Paul take the Nazirite vow in the temple in front of James? How does that demonstrate the “unity” of the NT?
https://bloggingtheology.net/2016/04/25/paul-and-james-in-conflict-jesus-agreed-with-his-brother/#comment-12817
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his stumbling block story is a lie. according to acts jews were happily accepting christianity. so it seems like the apostles weren’t putting emphasis on “nothing but christ crucified”
his lie is further exposed
if jews in jerusalem were preaching christ crucified and winning converts then he lies to people somewhere else.
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quote:
Wait…Who Died?
And of course, that’s not the only problem:
But I have been accepting an assumption here: that the original believers were actually willing to die. Yet by all accounts, they avoided violence by any means possible. Look at the adventures of Paul, for example, e.g. Acts 9:23-25, 29-30. And why did what happened to Stephen never happen to Peter or any eyewitness? Is it an accident that Peter recants precisely when he cannot protect himself from sudden retribution [e.g. Mark 14:66-72], but then reconverts when safe? And who else among the original cast could fall back on Roman citizenship for self-defense like Paul did? [e.g. Acts 22:25-29]
Even the one early account of Peter’s death that we have, if true at all [it comes half a century later than Acts and is unsourced and full of the ridiculous, as previously noted], claims that he was killed for political reasons [and not really for his belief]. If their story was in any sense a sham, the [Apostolic] conspirators would actually seek to spread their message while guarding themselves. They could have easily maneuvered other followers into the path of violence (a deed no more unscrupulous than the possible murder of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5:1-11), or even left town when it suited them (see, for example, Acts 8:1)—and what are they doing in Tyre, begging Paul not to go back to Jerusalem in Acts 21:3-6? See also 22:18, etc. …
In Jerusalem, as far as we are told, there was also no unified opposition to the creed (Acts 5:33ff., 23:6ff.), there was large enough support to actually instill fear in the persecutors (Acts 5:26, 4:21-22), no other source records any persecution in Jerusalem, not even Josephus (though he describes many riots and violent disputes), the legal powers of the Sanhedrin did not extend to any Greek quarter or city in the region (like Tyre), and Paul and the other persecutors merely put people in prison (Acts 5:17, 8:1-3), which was always, for whatever reason, easily escaped (Acts 5:19, 5:22 [BTW, I find it curious that this jailing happens almost immediately after the murder of Ananias and Sapphira…suggesting perhaps we aren’t being told the real reason for the Apostles’ arrest]). Moreover, no non-Jews would have cared [or hardly any—local politicking aside, e.g. 2 Cor. 11:32-33], and there were whole cities of non-Jews in the Palestinian area, as well as Samaritans right between Galilee and Judaea, who also would not have cared. Acts even says there were often times of peace (Acts 2:47, 9:31). Surely the opposition must have been rather fickle, if it allowed this.
But there are more direct questions we can ask: When Paul returns to Jerusalem, preaches the creed, and starts a riot, it is only he, and no one else in the church—who were clearly there (Acts 21:17ff.)—who is attacked or arrested. Why is that? And why do the reasons he is attacked have nothing to do with his profession of Christianity? (21:29, 21:38) Why does there have to be a conspiracy of foreigners to trump up a false charge and drag out false witnesses to get Stephen arrested? (6:8-14) And why does Paul only report that it was refusal of circumcision that caused persecution, not belief in the resurrection? (Galatians 6:12)
On the other hand, how is it possible that a persecuted church can maintain its council of elders right in Jerusalem for years on end? [See Galatians 1-2] They must have been very wily indeed. Why were they not all killed or arrested? Why is the only actual death we hear [details] about in this persecution that of Stephen, which was an isolated riot, begun over what was actually a trumped-up misunderstanding of what the Christians were actually preaching (Acts 6:13-14), and not a reaction against what they actually believed? There is simply too much reason to doubt that the “persecution” of any eyewitnesses would have been serious enough to dissuade them from any plan that had enough merit to get them going in the first place.
end quote
his story about “stumbling block” were lies .
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that was a transitional period in Acts until the temple was destroyed in 70 AD.
Paul was practicing evangelism and respect toward the Jews – “I have become all things to all men; to the Jews I have become like a Jew, to those without law like those without the law”, etc.
1 Corinthians 9:19-23
Since the OT is true, but at that time, the ceremonial and temple laws were in the process of passing away, but it was a transition period.
the book of Hebrews explains this.
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Wow! So Paul was actually just pretending to take the vow, just to show “respect toward the Jews”?
It is clear from Paul’s own letters that it was not a “transitional period” but rather Paul’s own confusion on the matter. As Raymond Brown noted:
“…there are ambiguities in Paul’s attitude. His admonitions and imperatives in the second parts of many of his letters show that clearly he expected all Christians to live by the Ten Commandments and by the high morality of Judaism. Acts 20:6, 16 suggests that he kept Jewish feasts…mandated in the Law; and Acts 21:26 has Paul worshiping in the Jerusalem Temple even as did the Jewish Christian leaders who lived in Jerusalem” (Raymond E. Brown and John P. Meier, Antioch and Rome: New Testament Cradles of Catholic Christianity (Mahwah: Paulist Press, 1983), p. 5.).
If it was a “transitional period”, then why did Paul flip-flop later on as well?
Furthermore, if it was a “transitional period” and the laws were “in the process of passing away”, then why did the Jerusalem elders say to Paul:
“You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs.”
It is clear from this passage that Paul was already preaching AGAINST the law, but then flip-flopped as soon as he was confronted by James. Thus, Paul did not originally believe that it was a “transitional period”.
By the way, the book of Hebrews is widely regarded as a forgery.
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They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs.”
Not true; Paul did not do that; James is saying that that was a rumor, but it was not true.
Paul never taught them to “turn away from Moses”; what he did was that he told the Jewish Christians that they could not force the Gentiles to be circumcised or keep Jewish feasts, etc. in order to be saved. (Galatians, Acts 15), but he never said the Jews should not circumcise or live according to their customs – unless they were saying that by doing that, they were earning God’s favor.
Hebrews cannot be a forgery since it does not claim to be from anyone specific.
the only question in the early church was that the west did not believe it was written by Paul; Tertullian said it was written by Barnabas (On Modesty 20); but both east and west accepted it as canonical. Quoted by Clement of Rome, Tertullian, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, as inspired Scripture.
Augustine and Jerome convinced the west it was written by Paul; but it was not.
Hebrews is God-breathed.
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“Paul never taught them to “turn away from Moses”; what he did was that he told the Jewish Christians that they could not force the Gentiles to be circumcised or keep Jewish feasts, etc. in order to be saved. (Galatians, Acts 15), but he never said the Jews should not circumcise or live according to their customs – unless they were saying that by doing that, they were earning God’s favor.”
paul :“both Jews and Greeks are under the power of sin.”
what was a jew using to fight “power of sin” ? what do you think a jewish response would have been to paul ?
obedience to the jewish law, right?
paul was selling his murdered sacrificial ritual to the non-jews and assumed that jewish obediance to the jewish law kept jews “under the power of sin”
paul has put the law of moses and power of sin in the same both equal to each other
thats why he asks
“What then should we say? That the law is sin?”
he would not ask this question if he did not think that his listeners did not think that this guy equated law and sin together
he shoots himself by equating then he says “no, by no means”
it is the jews who find the answer to sin in OBEDIENCE to the law, but paul finds no solution within it, but requires a murder ritual /blood and “washed in blood of jezzer” to fight “power of sin”
the guy is clearly trashing torah
why can’t he unite jew and gentile under obedience to the torah?
paul is telling people that all jews who died for thier obedience to the torah died for nothing
out of gods mind came laws and rituals which created nothing but “power of sin”
paul is hanging his god under judgement.
paul judged yhwh .
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“Not true; Paul did not do that; James is saying that that was a rumor, but it was not true.”
If it was a “rumor”, then why didn’t Paul deny it? Why didn’t he dispute the charge and instead obeyed James request to “purify” himself? You are putting your own interpolations into the text which the text does not support.
“Hebrews cannot be a forgery since it does not claim to be from anyone specific.”
Of course it can, because the unknown author tried very hard to imply that he was Paul without actually saying it.
“the only question in the early church was that the west did not believe it was written by Paul; Tertullian said it was written by Barnabas (On Modesty 20); but both east and west accepted it as canonical. Quoted by Clement of Rome, Tertullian, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, as inspired Scripture.
Augustine and Jerome convinced the west it was written by Paul; but it was not.
Hebrews is God-breathed.”
This only shows that the author partly succeeded in persuading some people that he was actually Paul. That’s what forgers do. They forge documents in the name of an authoritative figure in order to give their document more credibility.
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“Paul was practicing evangelism and respect toward the Jews – “I have become all things to all men; to the Jews I have become like a Jew, to those without law like those without the law”, etc.
1 Corinthians 9:19-23”
22For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
………….
hillbilly , i was talking about pauls infatuation with crucified krist.
which is the most likely in the list below
1. paul preached a crucified god
2. paul wanting to know nothing but a crucified god
3 paul went around imposing his crucified god on every other christian
1. jesus was suppose to be a teacher. teacher of torah would know that human sacrifice and dieing for someone elses sins is forbidden
Exodus 32: 30-35
Deuteronomy 24:16
Jeremiah 31: 29-30
Ezekiel Chapter 18 2
christians were not pushing crucified god like the way paul was. 3. christians in jerusalem did not think that crucified god was important because forgiveness did not require blood sacrifice and isaiah does not say that slaying of the suffering servant brings atonement.
1. paul is writing to believing christians in his crucified god about him being stumbling block to the jews 2.acts doesn’t seem to be portraying “stumbling block” message and it seems that not all christians like luke believed that salvation comes from human sacrificial ritual/crucifixion. —————————— ——————–
————– —————- 1. crucified messiah was offensive to the jews?
2. slayed god was offensive to the jews? crucifixion was not offensive but saying that one = messiah + god = offensive?
3. jewish , according to acts, were preaching slayed god? slayed messiah? or were they not preaching pauls INTERPRETATION and thats why they weren’t rejected?
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what has this “transitional period” claim got to do with the lie that cross was “stumbling block to the jews” when :
On the other hand, how is it possible that a persecuted church can maintain its council of elders right in Jerusalem for years on end? [See Galatians 1-2] They must have been very wily indeed. Why were they not all killed or arrested? Why is the only actual death we hear [details] about in this persecution that of Stephen, which was an isolated riot, begun over what was actually a trumped-up misunderstanding of what the Christians were actually preaching (Acts 6:13-14), and not a reaction against what they actually believed? There is simply too much reason to doubt that the “persecution” of any eyewitnesses would have been serious enough to dissuade them from any plan that had enough merit to get them going in the first place.
//////////////////////////
assuming they were preaching pauline like infatuation of dead krist on cross RIGHT IN JERUSALAM for years???????
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Oh where, oh where has little JAC gone? The radio silence is deafening…but I’m waiting…
1. What do you you mean that Jesus was “perfect”? Do you mean only in the sense that he did not sin? Or was he “perfect” in other ways as well?
2. Also, how exactly did Jesus “fulfill” the Law? Does that mean he perfectly obeyed each and every tenet of the Law? What if he violated any of those laws?
3. How exactly do you get to know God “personally”?
Is there anyone out there in Christian Land who can answer these questions?
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“3. How exactly do you get to know God “personally”?”
bread and wine every sundays
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Reading the Scriptures, with an open heart and humble mind, and spiritual re-birth, we hear the voice of God, the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 22:31 Jesus said, “have you not read what God spoke to you . . . ?”
God speaks through reading the Scriptures.
Prayer
Worshipful attitude
Singing hymns and songs of praise
reading Scripture (they were devoted to the apostles’ teaching)
Confessing our sins
Remembering the Lord’s death through the Lord’s supper
It is there in Acts 2:37-46
“that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent” John 17:3
knowing God personally
keep reading, John 17:5 says Jesus the Son had the same glory in eternity past with the Father.
homo-ousias (same substance) comes from that understanding, along with John 1:1-5; 1:14; Philippians 2:5-11; Colossians chapter 1; Hebrews chapter 1, John chapters 5, 8, 10, 19:1-7, etc. John 20:28 – “My Lord and My God”, etc.
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But you cannot know God unless He opens your heart to receive these divine truths.
2 Corinthians 4:3-6
God has to shine the light into your hearts, after you hear and understand the gospel. Like “let there be light” – to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ”.
3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled [a]to those who are perishing,
4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
5 For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants [d]for Jesus’ sake.
6 For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” [ Genesis 1:3] is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
Acts 16:14 – “The Lord opened Lydia’s heart to respond to the things that Paul was preaching.”
We boast that we know God personally, only because He revealed Himself to us; not for anything we did or any ingenuity or genius or talent.
See Jeremiah 9:23-24 and 1 Corinthians chapter 2
23 Thus says the Lord, “Let not a wise man boast of his wisdom, and let not the mighty man boast of his might, let not a rich man boast of his riches;
24 but let him who boasts boast of this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the Lord who exercises lovingkindness, justice and righteousness on earth; for I delight in these things,” declares the Lord.
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This thread has gotten to confusing and hard to follow so I figured I would try one more time with a new thread.
Ok Muslims if your argument against the trinity is that God can not be ONE being who is three distinct persons because three persons means there are three beings, then you are arguing that God is One being who is ONE PERSON.
Is this a correct understanding of your argument against the trinity?
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JAC/Crazy Hippy,
Your questions have been answered. Why don’t you answer mine? Your radio silence is deafening!!
To answer your question for the last time, Allah exists as One Being. He is One, not 3-in-1. Muslims don’t refer to Him as a “person”, but if you want to use Christian language, I suppose you can say that He is One “person”, if that helps you.
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Basam Zawadi said that in his debates (that Allah is one person); but I have heard other Muslims say Allah is not a person شخص and that one cannot know Allah as a person and that one cannot know what Allah’s substance/nature/essence is ذات، جوهر، اساس
Most Muslims say Allah is just Allah, and that one cannot say anything about what Allah is. (except that Allah is one and has 99 names/attributes)
But Kheir ol Makkareen خیر المکارین = the best deceiver/ trickster/ schemer (Surah 3:54; 8:30; 10:21-22; مکر = scheme in Surah 7:99) was not included in the 99 names. I wonder why?
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“Just A Christian” made an interesting point earlier:
The doctrine of Tahweed has three principals…
1. Oneness of Lordship (tawheed ar-rububiyyah),
2. Oneness of Godship (tawheed al-uluhiyyah),
3. Oneness of Names and Attributes (tawheed asma wa sifat).
But this Muslim said something a little different on point # 2 – she said “Oneness of Worship ( Tawheed al-ibadah )
it is interesting that there are “3 aspects” or “3 principles” of Tawhid / Toweed توحید
some kind of 3 in one and one in three. 😉
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Ken bottom line Tahweed is a DOCTRINE not just a word. Most Muslims don’t know it and even if they do know its a doctrine and not just a word, its so complicated they don’t understand said doctrine.
Thats why you have Muslims like intellect, saying that allah is like everything else in that he has multiple attributes. VIOLATION.
Or you have Paul Williams and others arguing against the trinity that we Have to No MUST believe in three gods, since we believe in three persons that must mean three BEINGS. Again a VIOLATION since it assumes God must be like us in that we are one being who are ONE person.
Funny thing is, Muslims say there is nothing like allah, yet they argue for tawheed,and against the trinity by saying that allah is like everything else.
So they have a God that is like everything else and we have a God that is NOT like everyone else that being one being and one person, and they argue against it lol.
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yawn……
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Paul,
Islam is MOSTLY about rules and rituals. It is a legalistic system of controlling external society (that’s what Sharia law is all about) . It does not care about the heart or secret sins in the heart much, as even Jonathan Brown admitted in one of his video lectures; and you also had on one of your old blogs (no longer there) about “veiling one’s sins”.
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As an ignorant westerner you think Islam = shariah. It does not. In Islam there has always been a deep concern for the condition of the heart before God and the cures and remedies for its diseases.
Islam has a perfect balance between spiritual, personal, social and political aspects. It is holistic.
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now you change your tune and say “most Muslims”
That should have been obvious that I meant “Most Muslims” – as I explained that you know a lot and I appreciate you helping other Muslims with the Council of Nicea. I mean that sincerely.
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like I say sweeping generalisations about other people’s faith are usually wrong headed.
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Paul, so can you tell me is allah one being and one person like you argue the Christian God must be?
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JAC/Crazy Hippy,
Can you tell me:
1. What do you you mean that Jesus was “perfect”? Do you mean only in the sense that he did not sin? Or was he “perfect” in other ways as well?
2. Also, how exactly did Jesus “fulfill” the Law? Does that mean he perfectly obeyed each and every tenet of the Law? What if he violated any of those laws?
3. How exactly do you get to know God “personally”?
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Sure Faiz I will if you will answer my question. Is Allah one being and one person like you argue the Christian God has to be?
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I already your answered your question, silly boy. See above.
Now stop stalling and answer my questions. You and your brethren have been avoid them for a while. All I have been hearing is radio silence. 😉
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So Faiz looks like its up to you. The last Muslim standing. So what say you, if I answer your question will you answer the question that all the Muslims are running away from?
That being…
Is Allah one being and one person like you argue the Christian God has to be?
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Oh dear…JAC, you are smoking too much pot. As I said, I already answered your question above. See the above posts. There’s a good boy.
I am waiting for your answers. Every other Christian has run away. You are the last Christian standing out there in Christian Land. Will you end the radio silence?
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Faiz well if you have answered it I haven’t seen it. Please excuse me as this thread has over 300 comments with everyone replying to everyone ls ea lot can get lost. So if you did answer the question could you be a good boy and either re answer or copy and paste from your original answer. Thanks
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such a patronising git lol
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Your awful cranky when you are sleepy.
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Here is the answer: https://bloggingtheology.net/2016/04/25/do-christians-and-muslims-worship-the-same-god-a-christian-view/#comment-13239
To answer your question for the last time, Allah exists as One Being. He is One, not 3-in-1. Muslims don’t refer to Him as a “person”, but if you want to use Christian language, I suppose you can say that He is One “person”, if that helps you.
Now, answer my questions, will you lad? There’s a good chap…
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Faiz so whats it going to be? YOu going to answer the question or not? If you did answer then please re answer or simply copy and paste.
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See above. I’m waiting for your response.
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Radio silence…
Just like that, he’s gone. Poof!
Still waiting JAC…Come out, come out, where ever you are…
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boring!
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i don’t argue that.
You tell me: how many wills has God?
1,2,3, or 4?
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Paul you say your not arguing that? YOu have said over and over again that we worship three gods because each Person of the trinity is a separate BEING a separate God.
I have some quotes…
“Your faiths own creed says that three persons are all fully God. Even my simple maths gives me three gods.”
and…
“That being the case there are three distinct beings. Oh yes, there is just one God. Lol”
So if thats not your argument then please tell me what your argument is?
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I’m bored with your questions. Zzzzz…
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Ok Paul Good night. Maybe next time you will remember what you argued and wont be so embarrassed and have to go to bed 🙂
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yes i am embarrassed. Oh well.
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Just A Christian.
We made our point clear here over and over that any Person/person is a being and no Person can be a Person without being a being. Any intellectual Christian like Ken Temple agrees with that. So you are worshiping 3 beings not one and that is polytheism. The difference between you and Mormon is that you have limited your Persons/persons to 3. Your God cannot be 3 Persons and cannot be 2 persons but Mormons have More persons like you.
You are all Multi-personal Gods like Hindus and some idol worshipers worshiping Multiple persons like Sai Baba who have been incarnated.
On our part, Our God is the Only, One, and Alone God of Abraham as the Bible said. Our God is not Multi-personal. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER AND NEVER. Our God is not Multi-personal please. Our God exists, so He is a BEIGN BUT DIVINE AND WE ARE BEINGS BUT HUMANS AND ANGELS ARE BEIGNS BUT ANGELIC BEINGS, DEMONS ARE BEINGS BUT DEMONIC BEIGNS.
IF I SAY GOD IS A BEIGN AND WE ARE ALSO BEIGNS IT WILL BE STUPID TO SAY I COMPARED US TO GOD. IT IS NOT COMPARISON BUT A FACT.
YOURS IS COMPARISON BY SAYING GOD BECAME MAN AND WENT TO TOILET.
Yes, no one has seen God, so God is a Being because He exists and obviously He is above EVERYTHING and it is OBVIOUS. You can call Him Person if you like. God’s Word, Mercy, Love, etc. are not God Himself but they are what they are. Mercy by itself is not a being and so are all characteristics of God.
Ken Temple. Learn Arabic. The verse said they scheme. If even God deceives He deceives in the Bible too. The God of the Bible killed Babies why don’t you preach at the refugee camp Jesus kills babies?
Ken, you mentioned the Quran did not understand Son/son? Again? Son/son means to have sex with a woman and give birth or begets a Son/son. THAT IS WHAT IT MEANS. THE QURAN AND YASIR QADIR DID NOT MISUNDERSTAND. IT IS RATHER CHRISTIANS WHO MISUNDERSTOOD IT AND THAT IS WHY SOME OF THE BIBLE REMOVED BEGOTTEN SON AND SAY UNIQUE. OTHERS WILL ADD BEGOTTEN NOT MADE.
YOUR REALIZE YOUR OWN MISUNDERSTANDING HENCE, CHANGING ITS MEANINGS FOR YOUR WHIMS AND CAPRICE.
IF YOU DO NOT MEAN SON, THEN REMOVE IT AND ADD BROTHER, SHARE HOLDER OR GENERAL MANAGERS. SON IS WHAT IT MEANS. A METAPHORICAL SON CAN NOT BE GOD EITHER.
BEGOTTEN WILL ALWAY BE MADE. IT IS STUPID TO SAY BEGOTTEN NOT MADE. IT IS LIKE ME SAY EATING NOT SWALLOWING. BEGOTTEN NOT MADE IS VERY FOOLISH FOR ANY ONE TO SAY. THE HOLY QURAN IS RIGHT BECAUSE BEGOTTEN AND SON IS WHAT THEY MEAN AND EVWEN IN THEIR METAPHORICAL FORM THEY CANNOT BE USED FOR GOD.
ANYONE WHO WAS BEGOTTEN OR IS A SON AND IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW THE MEANING IS CHANGED THE PERSON IS NOT GOD AND CANNOT BE GOD/
Sorry for the capital letters. If anyone repeats this false and try to put their lies and inconsistencies on the Holy Quran, I will use capital letters.
Thanks.
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Intellect wrote…
“We made our point clear here over and over that any Person/person is a being and no Person can be a Person without being a being.”
My Response So is allah a being? Is allah a person? Is allah one being and one person?
You wrote… “Any intellectual Christian like Ken Temple agrees with that”
My response: Ken do you believe that Each Person of the trinity is a separate being?
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Just A Christian
Please do not anger me. How many times do you want us to say God or Allah is a Being i.e. Divine Being because He exist with intellect and consciousness?
Thanks.
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My response: Ken do you believe that Each Person of the trinity is a separate being?
No; one being/substance, three persons / hupo-stasis ‘υπο-στασις (“standing underneath” the essence in personal relationships)
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We do not worship Tawheed but we worship Allah who is only one and alone being to be worshiped. Most Muslims have never heard the word Tauheed but they are Muslims. Tawheed is used by Islamic scholars to teach their advance students about the unity of God.
Stop defining Tawheed for us. We know Tauhid is an Arabic word that means 1 God. We are not interested on your research on Tauhid on Christian site. We know what Tauhid means and it means Allah is One, Only and Alone being God of Abraham as the Bible said.
Tauhid of lordship and that bullshit from you is not in our cup of tea. We are not interested in that.
Thanks.
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So not an answer to my question.
Is allah One Being? Is he a Person? Is he one Being and One Person?
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Yes, Allah is One Being. A divine being, said the Bible.
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You are up to something hence these stupid questions that have been answered several times. I am waiting for you twist. You have lost the argument, you are now left with twisting what we say to suit you.
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Precisely
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So then Allah is one person too right?
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And just like that he’s gone lol. You know its funny I have been asking the same question over and over and over again. The reply is always. “All ready answered that”
Kind of funny how if this question has already been answered how come no Muslim will answer it lol.
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Just A Christian
If Allah is One Person and so what? The Bible said God is One, Only and Alone. No where did the Bible say “God is Triune”. “God is One” is all over the Bible.
Person is normally used for human beings and a Divine Being is a Divine Being but if being One Person is what you understand, I do not think there is much problem about that. He is certainly not Multi-personal like Mormons, Trinitarians and other idol worshipers count their gods in persons like Emperor Haile Selaissie and Sai Baba..
Thanks.
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Intellect you wrote “If Allah is One Person and so what? ”
IF is not an answer, is Allah ONE PERSON? YES OR NO. NOT IF but yes or no.
Quit trying to wiggle your way out and just answer the question you say has been answered numerous times.
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JAC?Hippy,
I think it is very clear that you are not going to answer my questions. You will continue to stall and avoid them like D and Ken. But it’s okay. Your silence and refusal to answer in themselves speak volumes. It is obvious that you are too afraid to answer. 😉
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Radio silence yet again…LOL!
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My Radio silcence lol. Listen I will answer your question just as Ken has answered it, It is you who refuse to answer my question. The only one who has made an attempt to answer my questions is Intellect to which you thanked him for his SHIRK.
So if you will answer my question I will answer yours. If not then remain in darkness.
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Stalling again? LOL!! The silence is deafening!
I already answered your question!
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Intellect wrote:
We are not interested on your research on Tauhid on Christian site.
But I gave you a Muslim site (video) of 3 aspects of Tawhid توحید .
did you see the video?
Interesting that there are 3 principles/aspects of Tauhid. Looks like some kind of 3 in one and one in 3. 😉
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“Just A Christian” made an interesting point earlier:
The doctrine of Tahweed has three principals…
1. Oneness of Lordship (tawheed ar-rububiyyah),
2. Oneness of Godship (tawheed al-uluhiyyah),
3. Oneness of Names and Attributes (tawheed asma wa sifat).
But this Muslim said something a little different on point # 2 – she said “Oneness of Worship ( Tawheed al-ibadah )
it is interesting that there are “3 aspects” or “3 principles” of Tawhid / Toweed توحید
some kind of “3 in one” and “one in three”. 😉
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Faiz,
What question did I avoid?
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Faiz wrote:
You will continue to stall and avoid them like D and Ken.
What are you talking about?
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Ugh, are you guys willfully dense or accidentally dense? I have posted my questions several times, asking any Christian to answer them. Did you lose the ability to scroll through the thread all of a sudden? I’ll give you a hint on one of the questions: personal relationship with God. Ring any bells?
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I answered that one about knowing God personally.
You dismissed it as vague; but who are you to tell us what Christianity is?
True Christians know God – Jeremiah 9:23-24; I Corinthians chapter 2, verses 1-16, Philippians 3:7-14; Psalm 42; Psalm 63; John 17:1-26
you have to repent – realize you are a rebellious sinner and turn from that and to Christ – Luke 13:1-5; 24:46-47; Mark 1:15; Acts 26:20; Matthew 3:8; Luke 3:8; Acts 3:19
and trust in Christ to save you from your sinfulness and His right to send you to hell, unless you repent and flee to Christ for refuge. (Romans 10:9-10; John 1:12; John 5:24; Romans 5:1-11; Acts 13:38-39)
Submit to Christ as Lord and God and judge. (Romans 10:9-10; Luke 9:23; Acts 17:29-31; John 20:28; John 1:1-5; 1:14
You cannot get to God at all unless you come through Christ.
John 14:6
Acts 4:12
Romans 10:13-15
1 John 2:23 =
Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father ; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.
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Ken said:
“You dismissed it as vague; but who are you to tell us what Christianity is?”
LOL. Calm down, Ken. Don’t pop a vein! I didn’t say anything about “what Christianity is”. I said your response was vague. That’s the problem with Christians. They make all sorts of vague statements, but when pressed to explain, they make even more vague statements. It seems clear to me that Christian vagueness is strategic. It is designed to impress the gullible and simple-minded. Educated people will not fall for your tricks. Don’t get mad at me for your own vagueness!
Also, when I responded to your post, you simply disappeared, never to be heard again. You appealed to salaat and dua, remember? I refuted your post and never heard from you again.
You said:
“True Christians know God – Jeremiah 9:23-24; I Corinthians chapter 2, verses 1-16, Philippians 3:7-14; Psalm 42; Psalm 63; John 17:1-26”
Great, more vagueness! What do you know about God? How do you know? Do you carry-on a conversation with Him? Does He talk to you?
You said:
“you have to repent – realize you are a rebellious sinner and turn from that and to Christ – Luke 13:1-5; 24:46-47; Mark 1:15; Acts 26:20; Matthew 3:8; Luke 3:8; Acts 3:19
and trust in Christ to save you from your sinfulness and His right to send you to hell, unless you repent and flee to Christ for refuge. (Romans 10:9-10; John 1:12; John 5:24; Romans 5:1-11; Acts 13:38-39)
Submit to Christ as Lord and God and judge. (Romans 10:9-10; Luke 9:23; Acts 17:29-31; John 20:28; John 1:1-5; 1:14
You cannot get to God at all unless you come through Christ.
John 14:6
Acts 4:12
Romans 10:13-15”
LOL. In other words, you have believe first and THEN you will come closer to God! Sounds very convenient! You are so blind, you do not even see how delusional you are. What makes you think that you are not simply deceiving yourself? Your message basically is:
First, become a Christian and believe in the Bible. Then, the Bible will make sense and you will get to know God.
This is nonsense, pure and simple.
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it is interesting that there are “3 aspects” or “3 principles” of Tawhid / Toweed توحید
some kind of “3 in one” and “one in three”. 😉
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Wow, well over four hundred comments and not a single muslim capable of explaining the tawhid.
Here’s how confusing it is.
Jacob claims that muslims can’t know god’s essence, just his attributes which are not his essence. Then he says that he can know god’s character, even though his god offers no certainties about his character.
Faiz claims that your god’s oneness is an attribute and his essence, even though he also claims that you cannot know your god’s essence.
Intellect thinks that your god’s essence and attributes are exactly the same.
Burhauddin refuses to answer.
None of you guys have any idea what the doctrine of tawhid is. Tawhid is simple!!!LOL!
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Your own biblical Jesus gives you the necessary explanation
Mark 12 28
The Greatest Commandment
28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[a] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[b] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[c] There is no commandment greater than these.”
32 “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is ONE and there is no other but HIM. 33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”
34 When Jesus saw that he had ANSWERED WISELY, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.
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Burhanuddin1
One what though? It’s spurious to quote the parts of the new testament while ignoring the verses where jesus clearly claims divinity. Even if I accept what you are implying, that in no way describes the doctrine of the tawhid which is more than a three word statement.
God is triune!! See it’s simple.
That aside, some of your co-religionists say that your god has 99 essences/characters/personalities which makes him I don’t know what. None of the other muslim commenters agree with each other, and none can offer a coherent explanation of this central doctrine. What’s up with that?
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“God is triune!! See it’s simple.”
Please give me the explicit and consistent scriptural proof.
In Mark 12 28 Jesus agrees with a jewish scribe and me that God is one “He”.
You don’t agree with Jesus and me, do you? Odd
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Only if you show me where in the old or new testaments it says that god has 99 attributes/personalities/characters/essences or that his actions and statements about himself don’t reveal his nature and purpose.
In fact, why don’t you show me in the quran where your god says that “these are my 99 attributes” or that they don’t reflect who I am.
In fact, why not just go ahead and explain the doctrine of tawhid?
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Plus, buranuddin, whose son is the messiah?
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The flying red herring monster?
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LOL!!
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Is that one of your god’s personalities?
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Dude do you have a life?
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I do have a life and this is an interesting question you posed in this thread. You have been quiet on the subject – are you willing to offer an explanation of the tawhid that isn’t just word play?
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No I am not willing to offer an explanation. You do not deserve one.
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Your own biblical Jesus tells you Mark 12 what is most important:
To have one God who is one self, one He.
In my humble opinion If you don’t have that basis, all further speculation is in vain.
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Paul
“No I am not willing to offer an explanation. You do not deserve one.”
?
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Burhanuddin1
“Your own biblical Jesus tells you Mark 12 what is most important”
It tells me nothing about tawhid. You god has 99 attributes/personalities/characters, is unknowable, his actions do not reflect his essence or character, he does not reveal his purpose for mankind and is one step away from being a deist god. You cannot explain tawhid – it makes no sense.
There is no such being in the old or new testaments.
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D you clearly have serious mental health issues – OCD and deep seated Islamophobia.
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Another Muslim who argues like an atheist what a shock. NOT
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Lame. No surprise from someone who can’t even count until 4.
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D
God did not say these are my 99 attributes or I am Tahwid. We worship Allah who is One, Only and Alone. What clarification do you want again? I kept saying many Muslims have never heard the word Tawheed but they are Muslims as far as they believed Allah is 1 only and alone as the old Testament said.
Tawheed just to be Arabic word which means only one God. You keep troubling us about Tawheed which we have explained and explained. PLEASE TAWHEED IS AN ARABIC WORD THAT MEANS ONE GOD. THAT IS IT.
Thanks.
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It is Muslim scholars who discovered that Allah used the 99 names for Himself. It does not mean we can not call Allah any Good name. Christians call God as God of love, God of Mercy, God the Saviour, etc. that is what the 99 names are.
I just provided dictionary definition for essence, attributes, characteristic etc. for you to let you know that each of the 99 attributes/names/characteristics etc. of God are not “BEING” or “PERSON”, by themselves so cannot be counted as God.
It will be very foolish to count my laptop keyboard as 1 Laptop. My laptop keyboard is not laptop. This is not comparison to anything but to come down very low to explain to a kindergarten kid a simple thing to understand.
Thanks.
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Intellect so no where does allah say these are my 99 names, yet his 99 names is one of the three principles of Tahweed. “tawheed asma wa sifat”
You then say “It is Muslim scholars who discovered that Allah used the 99 names for Himself.”
So question if Allah never said these are my 99 names and it was scholars who over the centuries later “discovered” this key componet of your theology. Then why do Muslims always ask us “Where did God ever say I am a trinity or where did Christ ever say I am God worship me”?
BTW did you ever talk to your Imam and show him what you wrote about allah, and ask him about “IF allah is a person?”
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you stupid knob jockey!
your wrote :
“discovered” this key componet of your theology. Then why do Muslims always ask us “Where did God ever say I am a trinity or where did Christ ever say I am God worship me”?
well because yhwh speaks as a one WHO. one conscious WHO throughout the hebrew bible.
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Robert you clearly have never read the bible have you lol.
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Wow, despite the fact that the question has been answered multiple times, the resident Christian idiots continue to rant.
Meanwhile, the questions I posed remain unanswered! Radio silence from the Christians! LOL!
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D you can waffle till the cows come home.
Moses‘ one God is one Self. Jesus’ one God is one Self. Muhammad’s one God is one Self.
Not your one God?
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“It tells me nothing about tawhid. You god has 99 attributes/personalities/characters, is unknowable, his actions do not reflect his essence or character, he does not reveal his purpose for mankind and is one step away from being a deist god. You cannot explain tawhid – it makes no sense.”
“99 attrbutes/personalities/characters”
do you know the difference between “the creator” and “the ability to create” ?
or do you think “the ability to create” means that ability itself is a conscious self which independent of god can work along side him?
your words seem to imply that you are reading trinity trinitarian thoughts in to concept of tawheed
carefully look at these words
“99 attrbutes/personalities/characters”
you partition your pagan god and each ability within it is self conscious. “alive”
then you try to impose your pagan beliefs unto tawheed.
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Robert
You need to ask Intellect about your god’s 99 attributes – he says that his attributes are the same as his essence. We all know – all except for the muslims on this blog – that Intellect committed shirk with that statement.
Are you going explain tawhid so that we get to answering the question of whether we worship the same god.
All the muslim comments on this thread have been off topic. LOL!!!
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LOL Intellect was really shirken up the blog wasn’t he. TO be honest I think I’m done on this thread. Just gonna watch the Muslims devolve into more and more absurdity
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I’m pretty much done too – I guess we’ll never know what the muslim god is like because the muslims don’t know.
LOL!!
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Yes, I guess after being humiliated so much and exposed as idol worshipers, it is time for you guys to make your escape, leaving so many unanswered questions about your false and confused religion! LOL!!
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D the problem, is that most Muslims and definitely every Muslim commenting in this thread did not realize that Tahweed was a doctrine that took hundreds of years to develop.
They are taught that Tahweed just means ONE thats it, they have no clue on the three principals or even the various DIFFERENT interpretations of those principals.
For instance Salfi’s believe htat allah really has actual HANDS and EYES, A Mouth etc… of course they add that these attributes are not like our attributes and they dont explain the “HOWNESS” but they believe these things are very real.
Where as Sufi’s might say that these are just allegorical for instance allah having “hands” that is an allegory for allahs power etc…
One thing I will say is that I have to give Intellect credit, he was the only one who was brave enough to answer. SO there maybe hope for him.
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JAC,
Again, you’re confusing the trinity with Tawheed. Get it together man!
By the way, your radio silence on my questions remains. 😉
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some intelligence tests for pagans like “d”
if you remove power for your god, then is he still “powerful creator”
“powerful knower”
“powerful hearer”
?
yes or no?
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That’s not a yes or no answer. The christian god can exist in more than one place at a time and in different forms at the same time – there is no contradiction.
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This is what idol worshipers say too. Thus, there is no way a Christian can criticize Hindus!
Your god may be capable of existing in more than place at a time, but the question is would he? How would that avoid promoting idolatry?
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Faiz
“Your god may be capable of existing in more than place at a time, but the question is would he? How would that avoid promoting idolatry?”
Through the doctrine of triunity one being, three persons. Not one being, 99 personalities and characters!
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Burhanuddin1
“D you can waffle till the cows come home.”
The only waffling is coming from you and your muslim bros. None of you can explain tahwhd so you are waffling about other subjects trying to avoid answering.
Of course, we now know that you cannot answer the question because you don’t know the answer! LOL!
Now Intellect is admitting that one of the most fundamental doctrines of tawhid – your god’s 99 names/essences/characters/personalities – are all man-made.
You have no idea who or what you worship so men have to make it up. LOL!
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“Now Intellect is admitting that one of the most fundamental doctrines of tawhid – your god’s 99 names/essences/characters/personalities – are all man-made.”
how can one continue discussion with this thing?
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It’s your opinion so what. I’d rather stay with the facts.
Moses‘ one God is one Self. Jesus’ one God is one Self. Muhammad’s one God is one Self.
Not your one God?
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Burhanuddin1
“It’s your opinion so what. I’d rather stay with the facts.”
Just explain the tawhid and clear all of this up….
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using your retarded pagan logic
each person in the trinity also sees , hears each other and whats around them.
so these abilities must be personalities too.
so you must have many many persons in your retarded trinity.
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robert2016
Your god has 99 personalities.
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Just A Christian
You said;
Just A Christian
April 27, 2016 • 10:13 pm
Intellect wrote…
“We made our point clear here over and over that any Person/person is a being and no Person can be a Person without being a being.”
My Response So is allah a being? Is allah a person? Is allah one being and one person?
You wrote… “Any intellectual Christian like Ken Temple agrees with that”
My response: Ken do you believe that Each Person of the trinity is a separate being?
I say;
Every Person/person is a Being. So every each Person/person of the Trinity is a Being.
Just A Christian, you asked Ken a question. Ken could not answer you and he cannot answer you because he knows no Person/person can be a Person/person without being a “Being”.
You can believe so but you are in error just like Rastafarians believe Emperor Haile Selaissie is an incarnated God. They believe that but ken believed they are in error.
I WANT A PROVE WHERE A PERSON IS NOT A BEING. ARE YOU TELLING ME JESUS CHRIST AS THE SECOND PERSON WALKING ON EARTH IS NOT A BEIGN?
IS JESUS CHRIST THE SECOND PERSON NOT A BEIGN? YES OR NO.
IS JESUS CHRIST THE SECOND PERSON NOT A BEIGN? YES OR NO.
IS JESUS CHRIST THE SECOND PERSON NOT A BEIGN? YES OR NO.
IS JESUS CHRIST THE SECOND PERSON NOT A BEIGN? YES OR NO.
IS JESUS CHRIST THE SECOND PERSON NOT A BEIGN? YES OR NO.
DOES GOD THE FATHER NOT EXIST SEPARATE FROM THE SON?
IF SO, DOES THE FATHER BY HIMSELF NOT A BEING?
EVERY PERSON IS A BEING BY HIMSELF. PROVE TO ME IT IS NOT SO.
Thanks.
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Intellect wrote…
“Every Person/person is a Being. So every each Person/person of the Trinity is a Being.”
My Response so then your allah is nothing different then EVERY PERSON. Go to your Imam with that, but please have your best running shoes on when you do.
Its funny we Christians have a higher view of God then Muslims. We believe God is unique there is nothing like him hence he is not like EVERY PERSON and EVERY BEING, he is Triune ONE BEING who is THREE PERSONS.
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Your god is a human being who sleeps and defecates like the best of the human race. I will not be worshiping that thank you very much.
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passes wind . sometime indigestion from figs .
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Yes Paul your hatred of God has been made perfectly clear
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I love God. I hate idolatry. Worshiping a man is hateful to God too. Read the Jewish scriptures and the Quran for details…
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Paul Williams
“I love God. I hate idolatry. Worshiping a man is hateful to God too. Read the Jewish scriptures and the Quran for details…”
You love something that you have no way of knowing? That is impossible and absurd. it’s like saying you love bananas and oranges even though only know of them by reading about them in a magazine.
You could like their colour, shape and the good things say about them, but you wouldn’t actually know what it is you are loving because the shape and colour and other people’s descriptions don’t convey the essence of what is good about those things.
Likewise, your god doesn’t reveal himself, so all you have are his 99 whatevers that really tell you nothing about who he is. You can’t even tell if his character is good or evil because his attributes don’t reveal that.
The jewish scriptures do not describe a god like this – AT ALL.
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Paul
“Your god is a human being who sleeps and defecates like the best of the human race. I will not be worshiping that thank you very much.”
You don;t know who or what you worship.
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“We believe God is unique there is nothing like him hence he is not like EVERY PERSON and EVERY BEING, he is Triune ONE BEING who is THREE PERSONS.”
does jezus see the world independent of the father or is he dependent on the fathers sight?
if yes , then is the same shared “what” creating an INDEPENDENCE in sight ?
these are easy to understand questions
are each persons
omniscient using the same “what”?
if you get 3 mirrors and see your self doing actions
are you seeing 3 selves or 1 self?
but you don’t believe your god is 1 self, he is 3 selves , right?
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Erm, excuse me, but your God is actually three persons in two beings. You forgot the human being/nature of the post-incarnation God.
The pre-incarnation God is three persons in one being/nature/essence.
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It Is undeniable that Christians worship a creature, a man like us.
If they deny this they are docetists.
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They don’t care. They are ego-tripping’. Anything goes for the sake of being “loved and saved and in relationship bla bla”.
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Paul for someone who claims to have been a Christian you sure seem to misrepresent what Christians believe. Let me ask you when you were a Baptist Christian did you ….
Worship a God who was three persons and three beings ergo three gods?
Or did you worship One Being who is three persons?
Did you worship only a MAN or did you worship GOD who for a brief time in our history set aside his glory, left his exalted position and entered into Human flesh to become the God-Man? Only to suffer and die on the cross and be raised from the dead on the third day to his rightly position to his full glory that he had from the begging?
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I worshiped Jesus. A great sin in the eyes of God. Jesus prayed to and worshiped his Lord, his God and our God.
It is orthodox Christian belief that Jesus was not only fully man in Palestine but is still fully man today. You may reject this creed but it is normative in mainstream Christianity.
Now let me ask you a question: when you worship Jesus do you worship all of him, including the fully human part, or are you careful not to worship a man – focusing only his alleged deity?
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Paul you never answered my question on the trinity. Did you worship Three Gods?
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Why do you avoid my question about Jesus?
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Paul Why did you avoid my question on the trinity?
Did you worship three gods as a Baptist Christian?
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Stop running away dude and answer my question:
It is orthodox Christian belief that Jesus was not only fully man in Palestine but is still fully man today. You may reject this creed but it is normative in mainstream Christianity.
when you worship Jesus do you worship all of him, including the fully human part, or are you careful not to worship a man – focusing only his alleged deity?
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Paul stop running away dude and answer my question
Did you worship three gods as a Baptist Christian?
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Of course not consciously but in reality I committed idolatry by worshiping Jesus.
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Now answer my question: It is orthodox Christian belief that Jesus was not only fully man in Palestine but is still fully man today. You may reject this creed but it is normative in mainstream Christianity. Now let me ask you a question: when you worship Jesus do you worship all of him, including the fully human part, or are you careful not to worship a man – focusing only his alleged deity?
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I have given you my answer. In my mind no. But in reality I was polytheistic in my worship.
Do you worship all of Jesus or just part of him?
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“left his exalted position and entered into Human flesh to become the God-Man?”
why would a “gd-man” make EXALTED claims like “i am” if he left his “exalted position”
who gave this copy of a copy of an original god in “exalted position” to make exalted claims? isn’t that sinful and blasphemous against himself and his law? how dare say that same voice box “i am” when it became like leech?
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So if you worshiped three gods, and since that is not what Christianity teaches how can you say you were a Christian? So please stop being dishonest and disingenuous and tell the truth and say you were never a Christian since you worshiped three gods.
And no Orthodox does not teach that Jesus was fully man and is now fully man. It teaches that Jesus was Fully GOD and FULLY MAN and is now still Fully GOD and FULLY MAN.
And yes I believe the latter since that is what the bible clearly teaches.
So stop deliberately misrepresenting what Christians believe.
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I have never denied that orthodox teaching says Jesus was/is fully God and fully man, but Christians usually underplay the human side and bang on about how he is God. I hear it all the time from Christians.
If you worship a being who is fully man then you are committing idolatry according to the Bible. It does not matter that in you believe him to be God in addition too. The idolatry has been committed.
Your failure to distinguish between the two in your worship is the problem.
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“And no Orthodox does not teach that Jesus was fully man and is now fully man. It teaches that Jesus was Fully GOD and FULLY MAN and is now still Fully GOD and FULLY MAN.”
if your god “left his exalted” position what does “fully” mean? are you saying jesus was a disabled version of your god inside the earth?
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Robert quit confusing the one true God with your god. The one true God unlike your God has a NATURE, so he can put aside his glory that he had from the begging and take on human flesh and he still has his NATURE.
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Paul Paul Paul… Is that what you worshiped when you were a “Baptist Christian”?
Paul its obvious you are looking for someone like yourself who did not believe and was looking for reasons to justify their un belief.
So if you find someone like you with your misrepresentations, distortions, and only stating half of what we believe as if that is what we fully believe, then you will be able to convince them of what they are already convinced of and that is their unbelief. Not much of a victory.
But to answer your question NO I do not worship “worship the human nature/ body of Jesus when you worship him? ” I do not divide the natures.
I worship the GOD MAN who is Jesus Christ. I do not divide them like you seem to want Christians to do.
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I see. So you confess to worshiping, in part, a being who was a creature like you and me.
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No Paul I don’t “worship IN PART”. Sorry try again
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Yes you do – you confessed to doing just that; you worship a being who is human: eats, sleeps, farts, defecates etc, the fact that you also believe he is divine too changes nothing.
Man up dude and stand by your belief.
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“Yes you do – you confessed to doing just that; you worship a being who is human: eats, sleeps, farts, defecates etc, the fact that you also believe he is divine too changes nothing.
Man up dude and stand by your belief.”
btw that’s the “one of ” persons from trinity experiencing all the stuff in your list. “just a fristian” has admitted that the person “put aside” his “one what” to experience the stuff in your list. which logically means jesus’ person/soul was “feeling the fart”
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Paul wrote. “Yes you do – you confessed to doing just that; you worship a being who is human: eats, sleeps, farts, defecates etc, the fact that you also believe he is divine too changes nothing.
Man up dude and stand by your belief. ”
My response: Ok then you worship Mohamed, doesnt matter if you say you don’t doesn’t matter how you define worship, the fact is you are confused and you worship a being who is NOT GOD.
Man up due and stand by your belief…
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Silly response.
No Muslim worships Muhammad as God we don’t not worship him period.
But you confessed to worshiping Jesus man and all.
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Paul wrote… “Silly Response”
My response: So now you know how silly your response was to me lol.
BTW Paul do you love Mohamed with all your heart, mind, soul and body?
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“BTW Paul do you love Mohamed with all your heart, mind, soul and body?”
fews questions
what is the difference between loving mothers and loving God?
what is the difference between obeying mothers and obeying God?
what is the difference between thinking that a spirit god became human asked to be worshipped in human form and accepting a human as prophet of god?
if you sincerely answer these questions you will know that what ever pagan apologetic you are trying to cook up from your question will sincerely and truly be obliterated.
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Robert you confused the true historical Jesus with the non historical never existed Quranic Isa.
No where did the true Jesus ever say “god said, “i don’t know the mind of my father yet ‘i am’ yhwh””
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Do you worship the human nature/ body of Jesus when you worship him?
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“No where did the true Jesus ever say “god said, “i don’t know the mind of my father yet ‘i am’ yhwh””
that’s because you are “born again” idiot
when jesus “one of” christ from group called “trinity”
i don’t know the hour
he means he does not know the mind of his “one what” which has all knowing and seeing attribute, then with the same mouth , john has him same “i am” which christians interpret to mean “yhwh”
so your confused and bamboozled peasant of a god said, what i said he said and that it
“i don’t know the mind of my father yet ‘i am’ yhwh””
so he speak ignorance then with the same end of his mouth speak blasphemy.
and your heart seek this flesh because you like mary would bow before a naked jesus leaving the tomb.
you are a human worshipper.
why did moses have beef with idol worship when idol worshippers were putting trust in the spirit which is in the idol?
since yhwh is omni everything , then he is in idols too
why did moses write 10 commandments? was he joking?
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“Did you worship only a MAN ”
if you say “god walked the earth”
“god was put in a cave”
god said, “i don’t know the mind of my father yet ‘i am’ yhwh”
then willaims was worshipping a man.
is not your pagan god powerful enough to change is ghost/spirit/whatever/invisible spirit/whatever into something physical? is he only good at possessing peoples flesh?
“or did you worship GOD who for a brief time in our history set aside his glory, ”
brief time and limited to one body? brief time yet god the invisible did not change? if god the invisible did not change and is everywhere (omni everything) then what does it mean “brief time” ?
god became physical and measurable. you worship nothing, but a man.
look, you can fool yourself, but you can not deny to yourself that the soul of your god changed and became something else.
“left his exalted position and entered into Human flesh to become the God-Man?”
so now god has positions which he can leave and have access to?
what are those positions doing without his person?
are they working independently of him?
are you now saying god is not omnipresent and restricted to “exalted position”
i thought your pagan god was all powerful?
”
Only to suffer and die on the cross and be raised from the dead on the third day to his rightly position to his full glory that he had from the begging?”
if god is immortal and everywhere and did not in his invisible self become physical and measurable, then what does it mean he “raised from the dead” ?
the only way “raised from the dead” works is where your gods invisible spirit becomes physical man, gets trumped by satan and loses control of his life.
conclusion : williams used to be a man worshipper and you are still man worshipper.
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That is why Paul Williams and so many others left Christianity. Bart Erhman who know the Bible more than you left Christianity because of that. Yes, Paul Williams, just like Bart Erhman after independent investigation realized they worship 3 persons, 3 beings and 3 Gods and so left Christianity. You do not have to ask the question for God sake. You should know that is the reason and so many others.
Thanks.
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Intellect NO thats not why Sheik Ehrman left Christ, he was never in Christ to begin with. But he “left” over the issue of “Suffering”.
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“It Is undeniable that Christians worship a creature, a man like us.”
the spirit part of their god changed into something measurable and physical. i don’t know why they are denying this.
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Burhanuddin1
“Erm, excuse me, but your God is actually three persons in two beings. You forgot the human being/nature of the post-incarnation God.”
Your god has 99 characters and personalities and you have no idea what he is, nor what is nature is – how can you worship thin air?
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And please stop calling the triune God a “Who”. It’s a being/nature/essence in three persons.
One WHAT in three WHO’s. According to Dr. James White anyway.
“The one what is the one Being or essence of God; the three who’s are the Father, Son, and Spirit. We dare not mix up the what’s and who’s regarding the Trinity”. (James White, The Forgotten Trinity, p. 27).
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Burhanuddin1
“And please stop calling the triune God a “Who”. It’s a being/nature/essence in three persons.”
The tell us what you worship. Explain the tawhid – it’s supposed to be simple, yet none of you can even explain it.
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Maybe if you stand on your head and affirm that there is only one true God who is one Self and there no other Self like Him. Come on, you can do it
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Maybe I should say that I believe in one god who has 99 personalities none of which I can truly know?
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First things first. You are saved by realizing the fact “la illaha illa llah”.
Not by your opinion you consider more important than this fact.
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Burhan what are you saved from?
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From wasting your existence
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what does that mean?
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Burhanuddin1
“First things first. You are saved by realizing the fact “la illaha illa llah”.”
You say that to affirm belief in a god that you have no idea about – is he a good being? Is he an evil being? You don’t know because his “attributes” – all man-made we now know, thanks to Intellect – don’t reveal his nature.
You may as well say Oh-blah-dee-oh-bla-da and it might have the same result.
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Aaahhaaahhaaa. Yes, I have no idea about God. That’s a good one. You want to taken seriously?
I know God through his signs. Of which you are one too, my dear brother in humanity. He reveals himself, remember? Clearly, explicitly and consistently.
Since the one God is the main character in the Bible, where can anyone find even a single mention of a three person God in the Bible without asking them to imagine preconceived Trinitarian doctrine into the text?
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christians don’t perceive a powerful and master of the universe god. they want their god to come down and cuddle them like humans cuddle each other.
this is all derived from their language “god is love”
“he became humble like human”
“he left his powers”
the thought is of a human being. they bring god to their level to “feel him” .
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“I know God through his signs.”
That makes you a new age muslim because your doctrine of tawhid renders your god unknowable – you can only know his attributes which are not his “is-ness”. If you claim to know your god through his signs then you are claiming some kind of revelatory capacity – are you shia?
And please show me where in the bible yahweh is described as having 99 attributes, is unknowable and says he does not reveal his nature or purpose?
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Just A Christian
You said;
We believe God is unique there is nothing like him hence he is not like EVERY PERSON and EVERY BEING, he is Triune ONE BEING who is THREE PERSONS.
I say;
It is unbiblical to say God is “Triune God” or “God is 3 Persons/persons”. The Jews do not have these in their scripture and they know their scripture very well for centuries and they never worshiped 3 Persons/persons according to their scripture.
Abraham and Moses will curse you Just A Christian for saying the worship foreign God like 3 Persons. 3 Persons is your problem and the Quran is here not condemn you as a Christian but to correct you and it is telling you “Do not say 3, desist, it is better for you”
Give me a prove or only one verse from the entire Bible that says
1. “God is Triune”
2. “God is 3 Persons/persons in 1″
My proofs that God is 1, only and alone from the Bible
1.”You alone is Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6
2.”You alone, Lord, is God.” Isaiah 37:20
3.”Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
4.”Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35
(Yahweh said He is He and there is no other God-No Triune God or 3 Persons God)
5. 1.”And Yahweh will be king over all the earth; in that day Yahweh will be the only one [echad], and His name the only one[echad].” Zechariah 14:9
( No Jesus Christ name but Yahweh’s name)
6.”you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only [monos] God?” John 5:44
7.”to the only [monos] wise God, Amen.” Romans 16:27
8.”there is no God but one [hen]” 1 Corinthians 8:4
NO SINGLE TRIUNE GOD IN THE BIBLE AND NO SINGLE 3 PERSONS 1 GOD IN THE BIBLE
Besides Just A Christians, there are so many people worshiping 3 Persons/persons as God in this world so to say your God is not like any other God is naïve on your part. There are so many 3 persons 1 God. Hindus had 3 incarnated persons as Sai Baba for their God.
Thanks.
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Intellect thank you for quoting those beautiful scriptures that I say AMen too, See YHWH is YHWH alone he is eternal alone unlike your allah who has his Quran with him. He is Unique unlike your God who is just like every one else that being one being and one person.
You quote scripture but its a shame you fail to understand it.
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“alonE” ? what about the partners in “yhwh” ?
aren’t they eternal by themselves? lol
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I find it very odd that your Jesus prayed to God, worshiped God and said he had a God. Me thinks Jesus was a monotheist – unlike you dude
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“alonE” ? what about the partners in “yhwh” ?
aren’t they eternal by themselves? lol
Thanks brother. Just A Christian is so intoxicated with his idol Trinity and forgets to understand what alone, means.
I wasted much time to copy all these verses for Christians to learn from it but you a Muslim quickly leant from it but JAC misunderstands alone. He misunderstood one, only as well. This is what Allah do not want. To see the truth and reject it.
Alone means
a·lone
/əˈlōn/
adjective & adverb
adjective: alone; adverb: alone
1. having no one else present; on one’s own.
“she was alone that evening”
synonyms: by oneself, on one’s own, all alone, solitary, single, singly, solo, solus; unescorted, unaccompanied, partnerless, companionless, by one’s lonesome
“she lived alone”
antonyms: with others, accompanied
•without others’ help or participation; single-handed.
“team members are more effective than individuals working alone”
synonyms: unaided, unassisted, without help, without assistance, single-handedly, solo, on one’s own
“he managed the store alone”
antonyms: with help
•isolated and lonely.
“she was terribly alone and exposed”
synonyms: lonely, isolated, solitary, deserted, abandoned, forsaken, forlorn, friendless
“Klein felt terribly alone”
•having no companions in a particular position or course of action.
“they were not alone in dissenting from the advice”
2. indicating that something is confined to the specified subject or recipient.
“we agreed to set up such a test for him alone”
synonyms: only, solely, just; More
Source:https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=zkYiV9ecCIeN8Qe_ybRY&gws_rd=ssl#q=what+is+alone
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lol bro
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NO I don’t misunderstand ALONE, Yes GOD Is alone there is no other GOD no other eternal being or thing. Unlike Allah who has the Quran.
Thats not the question they Question is what is this GOD, and the answer is he is ONE Being who is THREE persons. He is a complex unity “ECHAD” and he is the only complex unity being that is ONE BEING and THREE PERSONS so in that he is ALONE.
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jesus is “one of ” from a group of 3
the “one what” is additional to the group of 3
we call that 4 things
what is jesus?
who is jesus?
how much of “one what” is jesus?
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You said;
Just A Christian
April 28, 2016 • 5:53 pm
NO I don’t misunderstand ALONE, Yes GOD Is alone there is no other GOD no other eternal being or thing. Unlike Allah who has the Quran.
Thats not the question they Question is what is this GOD, and the answer is he is ONE Being who is THREE persons. He is a complex unity “ECHAD” and he is the only complex unity being that is ONE BEING and THREE PERSONS so in that he is ALONE.
I say;
New International Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
Just A Christian come to Islam. Why?
You said God is alone but John 1:1 said God is not alone. Ken Temple said God the Father is generating God the Son.
Is God the Father not a thing?
Is God the Son not a thing?
Ken Temple argued with madmanna, another Trinitarian on this issue. madmanna had seen the truth about Islam but refused to convert, but instead argued with his Trinitarian friend Ken Temple that how can one God generate another God?
Ken Temple said it was eternal generation like how Sun generating rays. So the Son is eternal and the Father is eternal.
It means your Gods are not alone.
God the Father generates another God the Son from eternity so we have 2 things or 2 persons/beings who are eternal and that is polytheism and idol worship and contradicts the Biblical verses I quoted that said clearly God is One, Only and Alone.
Ken, went further to argue with us that God needs another person to love, because he can exist without love like the Greeko Roman God of love Eros and Cupid.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eros
Who tells you ECHAD is a complex unity? Nabeel Quraish? He does not know Hebrew despite his degree in Christian theology. The Jews who have their language as Hebrew and their Rabbis know Echad to be one but not 3 persons 1 God.
Mormons can also said Echad is complex and so their multi-personal God is the only true God and unique God. Rastafarians will add Emperor Haile Selaissie in the Trinity ans say Oh their God is unique with his multi-personal God and list goes on and on.
We Muslims are clear God is Only One Being who is Alone as the Bible said. God’s attributes like mercy, love, knowledge and His knowledge of the Quran are not persons or being or a thing but just His attributes or characteristics. You twist what I say and try hard to implicate me on what I do not mean or I do not say.
All my Muslim brothers and some knowledgeable Christians understand me and will not buy your twist of my explanation.
Thanks.
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Excellent reply brother Intellect!
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“God the Father generates another God the Son from eternity so we have 2 things or 2 persons/beings who are eternal and that is polytheism and idol worship and contradicts the Biblical verses I quoted that said clearly God is One, Only and Alone.”
that’s a strange one.
if one generates the other how is the generator co-equal to the generated if
co-equality is to be understood as the following
coequal
kəʊˈiːkw(ə)l/Submit
adjective
adjective: co-equal
1.
having the same rank or importance.
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JAC “what does that mean?”
Come on, you expect to be taken serious now?
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I am being serious what kind of answer is that? Is this prosperity Tahweed? Has Islam been infected with that nonsense too? What, you say those words and all your dreams will come true? Do you get a good job, a good house, a good care, the woman of your dreams etc…
I know what I’m saved from. I’m saved from the Just Wrath of GOD. So what do you mean when you say you are saved from “wasting your existence”?
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I refer you again to Mark 12 28
The Greatest Commandment
If you fail to worship the one true God who is one Self and always identical to himself, you fail utterly and completely. You are lost in oblivion.
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What how is that even close to answering what you are saved from?
Do Muslims even know?
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You are saved from destroying yourself. A Kafir is some one who rejects reality deliberately.
Like yourself. You reject that your philosophical concept about God contains 4 distinct “Who’s” (at least).
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“Robert quit confusing the one true God with your god. The one true God unlike your God has a NATURE, so he can put aside his glory that he had from the begging and take on human flesh and he still has his NATURE.”
jesus put aside “one what” ?
is jesus “one of” which has access to “one what” ?
so you have “person” which put aside his “one what” ?
are you saying “person” is separated from “nature” ?
then like a n jockey you contradict yourself and say “he still has his nature”
so what is “put aside” (one what) or it wasn’t ?
why don’t you keep words simple and stop your bs “put aside glory”
keep it simple
“one of ” put aside “one what” but still has “one what” ?
why are you calling your “one of ” “god” ?
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“Robert quit confusing the one true God with your god. The one true God unlike your God has a NATURE, so he can put aside his glory that he had from the begging and take on human flesh and he still has his NATURE.”
the truth is you are evil for saying evil things about god. you are tricking people with your evil
you don’t even mean “god” what your say “god”
you mean something completely different.
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“Robert quit confusing the one true God with your god. The one true God unlike your God has a NATURE, so he can put aside his glory that he had from the begging and take on human flesh and he still has his NATURE.”
since you have “one of” thinking like human being and “put aside” “one what”
then “one of ” was experiencing as ??? what is god when you disconnect him from “one what” ? what do you call that?
person was carrying some of “one what” or “put aside” ?
“one of” was having mood swings
so a “one of” person from trinity was having mood swings like human
god was thinking like a human
“Mood swings refer to rapid changes in mood. The term may refer to minor daily mood changes or to significant mood changes as seen with mood disorders such as major depression or bipolar depression. Mood swings can also occur in women who suffer from premenstrual syndrome or premenstrual dysphoric disorder. The menopausal transition, specifically the time around approaching menopause or perimenopause, is associated with mood swings in some women. Mood swings can be seen with other conditions as well, including schizophrenia, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, dementia, and thyroid conditions.”
so yhwh who said he is not a man experienced and thought like a man.
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Just A Christian
You said;
I know what I’m saved from. I’m saved from the Just Wrath of GOD. So what do you mean when you say you are saved from “wasting your existence”?
I say
What proof do you have that you have saved? Believing in Christ died your sins? Or having “experience” as Ken is having?
Hindus believed they are saved by the incarnated Sai Baba too and they have “experience” more than the one Ken is having. Voodoo priest “experience” is more for him. Cocaine and drug smokers have “experience” no one can have.
You said;
We believe God is unique there is nothing like him hence he is not like EVERY PERSON and EVERY BEING, he is Triune ONE BEING who is THREE PERSONS.
I say;
It is unbiblical to say God is “Triune God” or “God is 3 Persons/persons”. The Jews do not have these in their scripture and they know their scripture very well for centuries and they never worshiped 3 Persons/persons according to their scripture.
Abraham and Moses will curse you Just A Christian for saying the worship foreign God like 3 Persons. 3 Persons is your problem and the Quran is here not condemn you as a Christian but to correct you and it is telling you “Do not say 3, desist, it is better for you”
Give me a prove or only one verse from the entire Bible that says
1. “God is Triune”
2. “God is 3 Persons/persons in 1″
My proofs that God is 1, only and alone from the Bible
1.”You alone is Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6
2.”You alone, Lord, is God.” Isaiah 37:20
3.”Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
4.”Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35
(Yahweh said He is He and there is no other God-No Triune God or 3 Persons God)
5. 1.”And Yahweh will be king over all the earth; in that day Yahweh will be the only one [echad], and His name the only one[echad].” Zechariah 14:9
( No Jesus Christ name but Yahweh’s name)
6.”you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only [monos] God?” John 5:44
7.”to the only [monos] wise God, Amen.” Romans 16:27
8.”there is no God but one [hen]” 1 Corinthians 8:4
NO SINGLE TRIUNE GOD IN THE BIBLE AND NO SINGLE 3 PERSONS 1 GOD IN THE BIBLE
Besides Just A Christians, there are so many people worshiping 3 Persons/persons as God in this world so to say your God is not like any other God is naïve on your part. There are so many 3 persons 1 God. Hindus had 3 incarnated persons as Sai Baba for their God.
Thanks.
Note: We do not worship Tawheed please. We worship Allah who is One God of Abraham and He is Only and Alone.
If you want to learn Islam, you can enroll into one of the Islamic Institutions. Tawheed is used to teach advance students of Islam the unity and oneness of God and it appears to be Arabic word that means One God. You want to get something out of it to attack Islam and you could not but now trying hard to get something from our mouth and twist it for your whims and caprice as you have been doing. You can learn Aqeedah, fiq, seerah etc. We do not worship all the Islamic study modules like Tawheed or Aqeeda or Seerah. They are just a study module.
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“But to answer your question NO I do not worship “worship the human nature/ body of Jesus when you worship him? ” I do not divide the natures.
I worship the GOD MAN who is Jesus Christ. I do not divide them like you seem to want Christians to do.”
what?
“jesus” is “one of ” from trinity.
he is partner to other persons
tricking people again?
you do not “divide” natures but you split the “one of” from his “one what” and you have him “put aside”
so what is “one of” when it takes on human being?
“one of” experience mood swings, human thoughts and human weakness. so “one of” disconnected from “one what” and experienced as “one of” WEAKNESS
conclusion : you are worshipper of WEAKNESS
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“I know what I’m saved from. I’m saved from the Just Wrath of GOD”
washing yourself in blood of jesus then celebrating his recovery like mad every sundays? then tossing away his “resurrection” because church rituals tell you that you are not very “christ like” today? even you don’t have “faith ” in jesus’ self abuse because even you deep in your heart have some kind of fear of gods wrath. human nature mate, human nature.
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You guys have been totally exposed – you know absolutely nothing about the doctrine of tawhid. And those who claim to know tawhid well are refusing to talk about it.
This is the worst dawah EVER!
LOL!
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Well good bye then!
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“worst dawah EVER” lol.
Naah its just dawah as normal. There is no such thing as “good dawah” its all bad.
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Actually there is s great deal of good dawah just you have not read it.
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Intellect wrote:
Just A Christian, you asked Ken a question. Ken could not answer you and he cannot answer you because he knows no Person/person can be a Person/person without being a “Being”.
I answered that:
Just a Christian Asked:
“My response: Ken do you believe that Each Person of the trinity is a separate being?”
No; one being/substance, three persons / hupo-stasis ‘υπο-στασις (“standing underneath” the essence in personal relationships)
https://bloggingtheology.net/2016/04/25/do-christians-and-muslims-worship-the-same-god-a-christian-view/#comment-13281
One Being / one Substance / one essence
in
Three persons / three hypostasis / hupo = underneath, “stasis” = something standing, existing
Three persons exist under the one God/one substance.
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you are a polytheist ken. i know it is hard for you brother but you guys are living in confusion and delusion. brother you are a polytheist.
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Ken Temple
You said;
No; one being/substance, three persons / hupo-stasis ‘υπο-στασις (“standing underneath” the essence in personal relationships)
I say;
So Jesus walking the surface of the earth is not a “being”. Is he then a car? or a train? or something?
God the Father is not a “being” ? Is that what you say. If Jesus the second person is not a being how can he die for your sins.
Something which is nothing cannot die for your sins my friend. To say Jesus Christ of Nazareth is not a “being” is an insult to Jesus. It means he does not exist.
To say God the Father is not a being, it means He does not exist and it amounts to blaspheme to any one who says God the Father is not a Being as Ken was saying.
Thanks.
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But I gave you a Muslim site (video) of 3 aspects of Tawhid توحید .
did you see the video?
Interesting that there are 3 principles/aspects of Tauhid. Looks like some kind of 3 in one and one in 3. 😉
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Nothing like trinity Ken
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If you are so enamored with the number 3, it just shows how dumb you really are! 😉
Next, you will be telling us that Tawheed and trinity both start with “T”. How interesting! LOL, Christian logic strikes again!
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D
Don’t tell me what I believe, capice? Yes, I know God through his signs, his ayaat, everything is a sign of God.
And your arrogant waffling just exposes your ignorance about Islam, about reality.
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Exactly!
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Burhanuddin1
“Don’t tell me what I believe, capice? Yes, I know God through his signs, his ayaat, everything is a sign of God.
And your arrogant waffling just exposes your ignorance about Islam, about reality.”
I’m not ignorant about Islam – I understand your doctrine of tawhid quite well and it makes no sense. You are the one who seems ignorant of tawhid.
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Hear hear. Before you want to run you learn walking. But in your case there is nothing to walk on, just empty void.
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So, now almost 600 comments on a blog post that asks if christians and muslims worship the same god, and still, not a single explanation of tawhid from you or your bros in islam. We’ll never know if we worship the same god if you guys won’t tell who or what you worship.
Do we worship the same god? Do the jewish and christian scriptures speak of an unknowable god who has 99 personalities/characters, and who never reveals either himself or his purpose for mankind?
If you can show me where the jewish and christian scriptures say all of this, it will move this dialogue along in leaps and bounds.
Why are you guys so afraid to talk about your doctrine of tawhid?
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You are such a bore
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“You are such a bore”
I’ll take that to mean, no, the jewish and christian scriptures do not support the doctrine of tawhid.
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no, its means you are a tedious idiot.
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Deaf dumb and blind. I have proven you from your Bible explicitly that God is one “He”.
Prove from your Bible explicitly that God is three “He”.
Prove from the Qur’an explicitly that God “has 99 personalities/characters”
or stop waffling.
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you are just dumb, you cannot see how you have been refuted. Boring
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ken, does yhwh have the names el gibbor and el eliyon?
and el roi?
is el roi the same person as el gibbor and el eliyon or are they different persons lol?
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ken, is joe ho wa
el shadai may be shadai from arabic “shadeed”
?
el shaddai?
el gibor
el roi
el eliyon
who are these PERSONS ? personalities/attributes/ characters?
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I answered that one about knowing God personally.
You dismissed it as vague; but who are you to tell us what Christianity is?
True Christians know God – Jeremiah 9:23-24; I Corinthians chapter 2, verses 1-16, Philippians 3:7-14; Psalm 42; Psalm 63; John 17:1-26
you have to repent – realize you are a rebellious sinner and turn from that and to Christ – Luke 13:1-5; 24:46-47; Mark 1:15; Acts 26:20; Matthew 3:8; Luke 3:8; Acts 3:19
and trust in Christ to save you from your sinfulness and His right to send you to hell, unless you repent and flee to Christ for refuge. (Romans 10:9-10; John 1:12; John 5:24; Romans 5:1-11; Acts 13:38-39)
Submit to Christ as Lord and God and judge. (Romans 10:9-10; Luke 9:23; Acts 17:29-31; John 20:28; John 1:1-5; 1:14
You cannot get to God at all unless you come through Christ.
John 14:6
Acts 4:12
Romans 10:13-15
1 John 2:23 =
Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father ; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.
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It’s all baseless if you cannot live up to the Greatest Commandment
See Mark 12 28 ff
If you fail to worship the one true God who is one Self and always identical to himself, you fail utterly and completely. You are lost in oblivion.
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Burhan you keep saying that God identifies as one self. Not sure what you mean by one self. If you mean one BEING I say Amen, if you mean ONE Being and One person I say you are in error as this verse will demonstrate.
Begging in Gen 18 we read…”The Lord appeared to Abraham by the oaks of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent during the hottest time of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing across from him.”
These three men where two angels and the LORD as the rest of the chapter clearly makes plain.
The two angels travel to Saddam leaving the third man the LORD to talk to Abraham.
Now read in Gen 19:24
“Then the Lord(YHWH) rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the Lord(YHWH) out of heaven.Gen 19:24
So here you have the YHWH who is on earth raining down fire and sulfar from the YHWH in heaven.
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Makes two YHWH’s then. Something fishy here
But the most important commandment says YHWH is one. Revealed by YHWH Himself explicitly and consistently again and again.
Something fishy here. You need a quality control to decide.
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No not fishy, There is only ONE YHWH, but that verse demonstrates two persons. So so much for your “He identifies as one self” lol. LIke I said you have never read the bible.
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“ONE YHWH, but that verse demonstrates two persons…” No it doesn’t. It demonstrates two YHWH’s?
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LOL so then you admit that the bible does not speak of YHWH as one SELF then. Well at least we are making progress lol
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You have never read the Bible.
God “The FATHER of Israel” rules out any God besides HIM:
“Do you thus repay YAHWEH, O foolish and unwise people? Is He not your FATHER who has bought you? He has made you and established you…. Deuteronomy 32:6
… See now that I, I am He, and there is no God besides ME.
(Deuteronomy 32:39)
YHWH the Father declares “there is no God besides “ME.” This declaration by “the Father” excludes everyone else.
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Amen to all that, thanks for proving that Allah is not the same GOd since allah is a father to know one lol
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AMEN. The Muslim answer is “just say a few words and you will be saved… don’t know from what you will be saved from but you will have a better life”
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How would you know? You can’t count to 4
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‘You cannot get to God at all unless you come through Christ.’
oh dear that means all the Jewish prophets are roasting in hell!
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‘You cannot get to God at all unless you come through Christ.’
how is that ? through church rituals?
murder of jesus? his recovery after a few days and then celebrating in church with wine and biscuits? how? then using blood like washing powder or trying best to obey church ritual to judge how “christ like” one is?
do you know that “come through christ” has created major disagreements between various christian sects ?
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No because they were looking forward by faith to the Messiah to come in the future. Genesis 3:15; Genesis 12:1-3; 15:6; Isaiah 53; Psalm 22; Galatians 3:6-8; Galatians 3:16; Hebrews 10-11; John 8:56-58.
Muslims cannot know God or have a relationship with God, ie, you cannot go to paradise/heaven without repenting and receiving the Jesus the Messiah of the 27 books of the NT.
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The Jewish prophets were looking by faith to the coming Messiah, Jesus the Messiah of the NT.
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but Jews were not saved by faith in a messiah (lots of them on the OT), that’s a christian thing not a Jewish one. Jews were saved by repentance.= as numerous OT passages indicate.
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Repentance And faith in the coming Messiah – Genesis 12:1-3; Genesis 15:1-6; Galatians 3:16; John 8:56-58
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eh? Genesis 12:1-3 & 15: 1-6 do not mention a messiah. The NT passages are irrelevant.
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how can you say “coming messiah ” when “messiah” will tell people to worship the INVISIBLE god , yet christians worship and will point to messiah as god?
why can’t you people admit you are man worshippers. if you do i will call you out for telling the truth about worshipping a man.
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ken is a liar. proof isaiah didn’t know about jesus
quote
Your hands are full of blood!
16Wash and make yourselves clean.
Take your evil deeds out of my sight;
stop doing wrong.
17Learn to do right; seek justice.
Defend the oppressed.a
Take up the cause of the fatherless;
plead the case of the widow.
:::
if they started to do right, then would animal sacrifices be acceptable and atone for sins?
if yes, then why would the author think jesus’ blood is more preferable?
::::
isaiah the jew would have been sickened with your sick religion.
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Robert2016 –
I am not lying; I am rather explaining Christian theology. The NT is the fulfillment of the OT.
Isaiah spoke of the glory of Christ Himself, the King – Isaiah 6; 53 and John 12:38-41
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Isaiah 6, 53 never mentions a messiah!!
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It does not have to have the word “Messiah” in it; even the Jews today believe many OT passages are about the Messiah without using the word “messiah” in the passage.
Isaiah 52:13- 53 – “My Servant” = the Messiah
Jesus is referring to that when He says “I have come to serve and give my life a ransom for many” mark 10:45
Isaiah 6 – “I have seen THE KING” = the anointed one, the messiah. Messiah means “the anointed one” , the king.
These passage do use the word and one has to believe in all of them together the way the NT puts it all together.
Psalm 2
Daniel 9:24-27 – messiah, atonement for sins, then destruction of the temple.
Boom!
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Isaiah 52:13- 53 – “My Servant” = the Messiah
Jesus is referring to that when He says “I have come to serve and give my life a ransom for many” mark 10:45
DAMN your lies ken.
where does isaiah say that “my servant” his blood and death would atone for sins
?
where do you see temple ritual in is 53?
damn your lies ken
how can you think that isaiah thought that his god would be “messiah” and think of himself as yhwh
?
damn your lies ken
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Ken actually Dr Brown has a funny interaction with a Orthodox Jew at some university. Dr Brown quotes Dan 9:26. To which the Jew replies “Thats not talking about the Messiah. So Dr Brown says “ahhh I see so where it doesnt say Messiah its talking about the Messiah, where it does say “Messiah” its not talking about the Messiah LOL
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Isaiah 52:13- 53 – “My Servant” in context is Israel not some future messiah. The term “servant” in chapters 40-66 clearly refers to the nation Israel.
The “King” in Isaiah 6: 5 is clearly God Himself:
Then I said, “It’s all over! I am doomed, for I am a sinful man. I have filthy lips, and I live among a people with filthy lips. Yet I have seen the King, the lord of Heaven’s Armies.”
No allusion or mention of a messiah at all in Isaiah 6.
Daniel 9:24-27:
24 ‘Seventy weeks are decreed for your people and your holy city: to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.[a] 25 Know therefore and understand: from the time that the word went out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the time of an anointed prince, there shall be seven weeks; and for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with streets and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 After the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing, and the troops of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its[b] end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27 He shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall make sacrifice and offering cease; and in their place[c] shall be an abomination that desolates, until the decreed end is poured out upon the desolator.’
It’s not at all clear from this passage that a messiah as a human sacrifice to atone for the world’s sins is intended.
The Jewish Study Bible comments:
25-26: Anointed leader….anointed one:
The word anointed in vv. 25 and 26 is the Heb “mashiah” (Messiah); thus these vv. have given rise to much Christian speculation. In the context of the other historical references, however, the anointed leader probably refers to Zerubbabel or the high priest Joshua (Ezra 3:2; Hag. ch 1; Zech. 6:9-15), while the anointed one is most likely the high priest Onias III, killed in 171 BCE (2 Macc. 4:30-34). In the Bible, “mashiah” never refers to the future ideal Davidic king; this use is post-biblical. The prince is Antiochus IV Epiphanes.
verse 27: Half a week, the three-and-a-half years of the Maccabean revolt that had transpired to that time.
Appalling abomination, probably new altar stones placed upon the altar in the Temple, upon which non-Jewish sacrifices were offered to foreign deities (1 Macc. 1.54; 2 Macc. 6.5)
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”
I am not lying; I am rather explaining Christian theology. The NT is the fulfillment of the OT.
Isaiah spoke of the glory of Christ Himself, the King – Isaiah 6; 53 and John 12:38-41″
trust me, isaiah did not envision the god who said “Your hands are full of blood!”
as “messiah” and one who will get butchered
i tell you the truth you are lying.
you have lying spirit within you for your lies.
HOW CAN U SAY/believe that isaiah thought that his god would become a jew and then get butchered and all can bath in his human blood?
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Come on Ken, no Jewish prophet ever was a trinitarian. Their God was “the Father of Israel” alone, no one else besides HIM. That was Jesus’ God too. “The Father of Israel” alone.
Was the HS the God of Jesus?
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Wrong Paul because as Jesus testified “Abraham saw my day and was Glad”.
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abraham went to kill his son, not yhwh. you must be dumb if you can’t see the difference. yhwh replaced abrahams son which 4 legged animal. surely abraham did not envision that yhwh would die like animal/human.
“abraham saw my day” are all lies . he didn’t see “sacrificed lamb/animal of god”
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Rabbi admits that the Day of Atonement (Leviticus 16-17; John 1:29) is parallel to Jesus Christ
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2013/07/07/rabbi-admits-that-the-day-of-atonement-is-parallel-to-jesus-christ/
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is your name winkman from ghost busters?
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LOL, over 600 posts and none of the Christian Three Stooges has had the courage to answer my questions:
What do you you mean that Jesus was “perfect”? Do you mean only in the sense that he did not sin? Or was he “perfect” in other ways as well?
Also, how exactly did Jesus “fulfill” the Law? Does that meant he perfectly obeyed each and every tenet of the Law? What if he violated any of those laws?
How exactly do you get to know God “personally”?
Radio silence…
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I answered you already several times on the getting to know God personally question.
Jesus was perfect meaning without sin, without even a evil thought or motive.
Jesus fulfilled the law by obeying all of it and by being the final sacrifice for sin, thus putting an end to all the OT sacrificial system, since He was the final sacrifice / ghorban قربان zebh ذبح .
Even the Qur’an mentions the prophesy of the substitutionary atonement in Surah 37:107
Jesus is the fulfillment of the temple, the land, circumcision and the new covenant for all nations does not require the food laws or feast days or laws pertaining to Israel as a land, for Gentiles.
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‘Jesus fulfilled the law by obeying all of it and by being the final sacrifice for sin, thus putting an end to all the OT sacrificial system,’
where does Jesus teach this?
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Where did Jesus teach that he came to Fulfill the law and become a sacrifice lol.
Did this former Baptist Christian of 15 years really ask such a question lol
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the Son of Man must suffer and be crucified and killed, and He will rise again on the 3rd day.” (Mark 8:31, 9:31; 10:32-34
And again He took the twelve aside and began to tell them what was going to happen to Him, 33 saying, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered to the chief priests and the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death and will hand Him over to the Gentiles. 34 They will mock Him and spit on Him, and scourge Him and kill Him, and three days later He will rise again.”
“this is the new covenant in My blood” (Mark 14:24; Matthew 26:28; John 6:56; Luke 22:20; 1 Cor. 11:25)
“the son of man came . . . to serve and give His life a ransom for many” Mark 10:45; Matthew 20:28
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“the Son of Man must suffer and be crucified and killed, and He will rise again on the 3rd day.” (Mark 8:31, 9:31; 10:32-34
And again He took the twelve aside and began to tell them what was going to happen to Him, 33 saying, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered to the chief priests and the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death and will hand Him over to the Gentiles. 34 They will mock Him and spit on Him, and scourge Him and kill Him, and three days later He will rise again.”
lol, “son of man” didn’t predict that even yhwh is going to forsake him lol
“my god, my god, why have you forsaken me”
hahahahaha
all the above is marks verses you quoted come from marks mind which is using jewish torah to find prediction for jesus. remember mark has to have his jesus fullfill stuff in the ot. lol
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Yes, thank you for finally answering the question! Now, I can proceed to refute you.
I already refuted you on the “getting to know God personally” already, so I won’t repeat that here.
As for your claim that Jesus was “without sin”, that is just another Christian trick. In fact, it goes hand in hand with your claim that he “fulfilled the law by obeying all of it…” because if it can be shown that Jesus violated the law, then it will be simultaneously shown that he was not “without sin”.
A perfect example of Jesus’ violation of the law and thus his sinning is his attitude towards his mother:
“Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32 A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.”
“Who are my mother and my brothers?” he asked” (Mark 3:31-33).
Of course, we all know that one of the commandments was to honor one’s parents. In Mark 3, Jesus is told that his mother is waiting outside, but instead of getting up and bringing her in as any decent man would do, he blatantly ignored her! So much for honoring your parents!
Now of course, the real Jesus (pbuh) would not have treated his mother that way. I am just pointing it out to show how utterly ridiculous the Christians are to claim that he was “sinless”.
Another law states that one must be kind to strangers:
“Do not mistreat or oppress a foreigner, for you were foreigners in Egypt.” (Exodus 22:21)
We all know the story of Jesus and the Canaanite woman, whom he abused as a “dog” and refused to initially help despite her pleas. This story probably disturbed Luke that he decided to omit the story altogether!
Another law stated clearly that certain foods were forbidden (see Leviticus 11). But Jesus violated this law by saying that all food was allowed:
“After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18 “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? 19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)” (Mark 7:17-19).
Another example of Jesus’ sins is his cruelty to animals. In Matthew 8, Jesus allowed demons to enter into some pigs, which then drowned. One can only imagine the sight of a herd of pigs struggling to breathe in the water!
There is also the bizarre story of Jesus and the fig tree. We are told that he was hungry (some god, right? 😉 ) and saw a fig tree in the distance. But when he realized it had to figs, he cursed it:
“Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.” (Matthew 2:18-19).
So there you go. Your Jesus was not “without sin” and he did not obey the law! He violated it on many occasions.
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You did Not refute me at all.
Jesus healed the Canaanite woman. Jesus was testing the disciple’s ethnic prejudice, for Jewish culture called the pagans “dogs” – the Canaanites were pagans and practiced the worse kinds of sexual sin and idolatry in their own worship services.
Jesus shows compassion on her; and she did not whine or complain about being a “dog” (kufr, unbeliever) – but she repented by confession of her sinfulness and plea for mercy in faith in messiah, calling Him Lord and “Son of David”.
The fig tree with no fruit was an illustration of the Jewish nation / Pharisees, etc. and they had no fruit (good works, change, holiness, love, etc. ) – they were hypocrites – only external shiny leaves . See the larger context of Jesus cleansing the temple and rebuking the Pharisees – read all of Mark 11-12 and all of matthew chapter 21.
43 Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it. (the issue of the fig tree and lack of fruit)
44 And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust.”
45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them.
Matthew 21:43-45
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LOL, Ken. Is that the best you can do?
Jesus only healed the poor woman after she admitted he lowly state. Talk about the sin of pride! Whatever her sins were, surely the “loving” Jesus would have helped her regardless. Are Christians supposed to ignore the suffering of unbelievers until they accept Christianity? What happened to “Christian charity”?
The fig tree incident is bizarre. Whatever metaphor it was meant to have, it does not explain why Jesus cursed a tree for not having fruit (when it was not even the season), And why in the world did he not even know that it was not the right season? Wasn’t he “god”?
I see you ignored Jesus’ disrespect towards his mother. What say you, Ken?
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Islam could not get rid of the concept of sacrifice, ransom, or substitutionary atonement.
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2014/08/23/islam-could-not-get-rid-of-the-concept-of-sacrifice-ransom-or-substitutionary-atonement/
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a very inaccurate and flawed article
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nope; very accurate and good article.
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Ken,
I have refuted this asinine article elsewhere on this blog. As it happens, I am actually writing a formal response that will be published on my blog soon, InshaAllah. It will further refute your claims and expose your ignorance of Islam.
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Actually, it was Muhammad’s ignorance of the OT sacrificial system and his ignorance of the NT that is the problem, while at the same affirming that they were inspired Scriptures and the Qur’an never says the text of the OT or the NT has been corrupted.
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Muhammad did not write the Quran so your comment is irrelevant
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Mohamed did not write the quran lol. WOw is that an argument lol
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Actually, it’s your own ignorance that is the problem. Your entire false religion is based on tricks and deception. The first Christians forged documents and misquoted “scripture” for their own ends. You are following in their footsteps.
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better book mark your blog then
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Ken,
I have published my response to your article here, as promised:
http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2016/05/does-islam-teach-substitutionary.html
Enjoy! 🙂
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Why did Allah sustitute an innocent ram (or lamb or sheep) for Abraham’s son?
http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2010/01/so-why-did-allah-substitute-innocent.html
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The ram would have been eaten afterwards, instead of wasted according to the Bible. The purpose of animal sacrifice in Islam is to be pious to Allah (Glorified and Exalted be He). I will discuss this in more detail in my article, so just be patient. You will be refuted soon enough! 😉
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why in a place where animal was eaten nearly everyday would one call lamb/sheep “innocent” ?
do you think that the ram was sweet savoir or something?
“The LORD smelled the soothing aroma; and the LORD said to Himself, “I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done. ”
is that what you are reading into quran?
soothing aroma?
from burnt flesh?
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substitute
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“Jesus fulfilled the law by obeying all of it and by being the final sacrifice for sin, thus putting an end to all the OT sacrificial system, since He was the final sacrifice / ghorban قربان zebh ذبح .”
lol, maybe those two arabic words used in places where arabs buried their daughters alive. may be they sounded “tasty”
yes mushrikeen were getting close to their gods through the slaughter of their children. nice words you have chosen ken, because you have helped me in seeing what a dirty pagan religion you have.
think about how these words would have been judaized and islamized
disconnecting them from how the mushrikeen were using them
this is why i think islam made much sense to arabs because christian polytheism was clear as one can perceive clear day.
some language really expose the sickness of christianity .
when you used “qurbaan” and “dhabh” i thought about it and how you apply it jesus and i nearly puked.
yuk
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It is supposed to be “yuk” – it is a dramatic picture of how bad your sin is; to do that to the lamb/sheep/ram.
Jesus took that “yukky” sin and wrath and violence for you – the ultimate love.
Muslims are still doing that in Eid al Adha عید الاضحی or Eid e Ghorban عید قربان , but they don’t know the meaning of it.
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you are a sick person ken. you people are infatuated with blood, violence and murder. look at the country you live in. sick.
“it is a dramatic picture of how bad your sin is;”
why didn’t he become a burnt offering and then christian would play burnt offering again and again on how “bad sin is”
how do you show this sickness to someone in depression?
or someone born in places where they see nothing but sin sin sin?
you people are sick people
“how bad your sin is”
but you swim in your gods blood monday to friday then you tell your heart “it aint so bad”
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Why did God Himself require so many sacrifices and blood in the OT ? (whole books of Exodus, Leviticus filled with the issue)
Isaiah 53
1 Kings 5 – 8-10, etc.
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Very few were for deliberate sins
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but why did God set it up that way?
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Not sure. But the usual ways for forgiveness of sins was repentance, not blood sacrifice
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Exactly. “I desire mercy, not sacrifice” (Hosea 6:6). As usual, the Bible contradicts itself and Christians are left scratching their heads and come up with an excuse. LOL.
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When it became a ritual without repentance, (as in Isaiah 1 and Hosea 6 and Jer. that you guys are referring to) then it was rebuked; but with repentance it (the sacrificial system, ghorbani قربانی , it was right.
There is no contradiction; there must be both; sacrifice for sin and heart-felt sincere repentance.
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What a load of crap! If it had become a “ritual without repentance”, then God would just have rebuked the Jews for that. He wouldn’t have changed the law by saying that He “desired mercy, not sacrifice”. He would have just said “he, get with the program. If you want to be forgiven, then make your sacrifice with repentance”.
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“When it became a ritual without repentance, (as in Isaiah 1 and Hosea 6 and Jer. that you guys are referring to) then it was rebuked; but with repentance it (the sacrificial system, ghorbani قربانی , it was right.
There is no contradiction; there must be both; sacrifice for sin and heart-felt sincere repentance.”
but you are defeating jesus’ blood “sacrifice”
christians are sinul since jesus existed
they have murdered, stolen, killed, bore false witness, worship idols, created forgeries etc etc
you also are telling muslims here that if they repented (the jews) animal sacrifices would be enough to appease yhwh .so what you have done is :
uplift animal sacrifices if done with repentance. meaning yhwh wants bloody hands . meaning he isn’t sick and tired of sacrifices if done with repentance
meaning slitting animal throat and burning flesh is sweet savoir to yhwh
if that is the case, jesus’ blood sacrifice becomes redundant. animal offerings were better and produced more guilt because one viewed the sacrifice and felt guilty for seeing life from the animal go in a matter of seconds
so thank you for telling us that jesus is redundant “sacrifice”
keep on swiming in jesus’ blood in your brain.
all this “one of sacrifice” defeats the point of sacrifices in the torah
the whole point was to make one break down and cry after seeing the poor animal breath its last lol
jesus gets a full whack recovery and mary m is “full of joy” lol
what is this?
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Faiz the Lord was rebuking the in Hosea, in Ez, In Jerimiah etc… Always was return to him and the law, to obey him and his law. What was in his law, what did he command. Sacrifice with repentance
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Marc Zvi Brettler, in *How to Read the Bible* (which was rereleased as *How to Read the Hebrew Bible*), says on page 150:
Amos makes his points about the need for repentance and about divine punishment, but not by urging the people to follow the authoritative Torah text. We can be fairly certain that his failure to mention such a text is because in his day, no such Torah existed. This claim may seem surprising. Consider, then, what Amos means when he says: “Did you offer sacrifice and oblation to Me/ Those forty years in the wilderness,/ O House of Israel?” (5:25). In context, this is clearly a rhetorical question whose answer is clearly “no.” When Amos posed this question, he was taking for granted his audience’s belief that the Israelites did *not* offer sacrifices during the wilderness period.
interesting
calling to repentance not by urging people to follow the authoritative torah text
taking for granted
his audience belief that…
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jeremiah railed against this.
if jeremiah was here today he would have condemned the christian world because they depend on murder ritual which has increased sin in the world.
jeremiah knew leviticus had blood obsessed jews who were attributing lies to yhwh
i quote
Here is what William Holladay (Jeremiah 1, pg. 261) says about Jer. 7:22:
“The phraseology of ‘I did not … command them’ suggests that Jrm is trying to correct a false understanding that people might have gained from a legal tradition such as the Covenant Code (see Exod 20:24; 23:18) … But the bald statement that these sacrifices were not a part of the instruction to Israel at the time of the exodus raises great difficulties. It is paralleled by the implication of the rhetorical question in Amos 5:25 and of the linking of sacrifice with kingship in Hos. 3:4; these passages stand in stark contrast the presentation of the total Pentateuch as it now stands. Some of the polemic against sacrifice in the prophets can be explained as a way of saying, ‘I would rather have righteousness than sacrifice’: this would be plausible for Isa 1:11-14; Hos 6:6; 8:13; Amos 5:21-24; and Mic 6:6-8. This relativizing of the attitude toward sacrifice is taken by a number of authorities and has been maintained for the present texts.
But the present verse, and the analogous texts in Amos and Hosea already cited, do not lend themselves to this interpretation without violence. The words certainly press the hearer to the conclusion that Jrm believed that the Sinaitic covenant had nothing at all to do with ‘burnt offering and sacrifice’; and given the assumption that Jrm must have known the Covenant Code, the evidence that he knew (at least part of) Deuteronomy and (at least some parts of) the P tradition (on the latter compare 4:23 and 20:3-6), the problem becomes severe.”
Holladay discusses a possibility, raised by Jacob Milgrom, that this verse may be only referring to individual sacrifices, and not to the activities of the Temple court. However, I think that this is speculative.
As I see it, this verse provides prima facie evidence of a contradiction between Jeremiah and how the exodus is actually depicted in the Pentateuch. It is strange, as Holladay notes, that Jeremiah had access to (at least part of) Deuteronomy and yet still makes this seemingly inaccurate statement.
But I think that it is fully plausible that Jeremiah is writing against the priestly writers, as you suggest. Jeremiah’s knowledge of Deuteronomy can be explained by this interpretation, since the contradiction would not be some accident, but a deliberate choice to downplay the role of sacrifice during the exodus. After all, during the Babylonian exile, Jeremiah does not want the Jews to fall into idolatry by committing sacrifices. One of the best ways to do this is to reinterpret what God commanded during the exodus, regardless of what the earlier priestly writers had claimed. It’s not like two different texts can’t give different instructions and relate two different versions of events.
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Jesus took that “yukky” sin and wrath and violence for you – the ultimate love. – if you repent and trust Him.
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“yukky” sin and wrath and violence for you – the ultimate love. – if you repent and trust Him.”
everybody still got to earn a living. everybody still got to suffer and sweat. everybody still got to fight the temptation of the world. everybody still got to do works. everybody still got to exercise guilt and repent. jesus killing himself is like me nailing my feet to the floor because you are blasphemer. but why should i nail my feet for your blasphemy?
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Ken Temple
You said;
Jesus took that “yukky” sin and wrath and violence for you – the ultimate love.
Muslims are still doing that in Eid al Adha عید الاضحی or Eid e Ghorban عید قربان , but they don’t know the meaning of it.
I say;
Jesus did not take away anything. Sin is still there. Christians do sin like anyone. Muslims repent when they sin, Jews repent when they sin and Christians repent when they sin. Jesus death is in vain. I do not see anything special about Jesus death to Christians.
If you talk of being “high” or “experience” or “feeling” too, then you are not alone, idol worshipers too “experience” and just ask cocaine and heroin or wee smokers and they will tell you the have “experience”. So you are not any special.
Your defence is that you believe you are right. Everybody believe he is right in his “experience” too. I thank God I halted your ticket to heaven nonsense because you have not been to heaven with pictures of you and God swimming in the Garden of eden so you do not have any proof that you will go to heaven.
You just believe so. Once again, every religion believers believe they will go to heaven or will be ok. in future. It is not CHRISTIAN BELIEVE ALONE.
It is the pagan Greeko Romans who believed God is Love and so God himself is love who came down and relate to them and love them and saved them. It is not a full scale Jewish for God to come down and love and save them.
At least Our Muslim God of Abraham instructs us to continue cursing satan and seeking refuge to Him the only one God of Abraham. If we experience something it is from God Himself and certainly not satan.
Thanks.
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We have to resist Satan and temptation also – Ephesians 6:10-18; James 4:5-10; 1 Peter 5:5-10; Jesus modeled that – matthew 4:1-12 / Luke 4:1-12.
The guilt of sin is taken away; the power / enslavement to sin is broken, but the existence of acts of sin is still there. You have nothing to deal with your guilt and no mediator.
We have a mediator at the right hand of the Father. 1 John 2:1-2; Romans 8:30-34; Hebrews chapters 7-10.
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“The guilt of sin is taken away; the power / enslavement to sin is broken, but the existence of acts of sin is still there. You have nothing to deal with your guilt and no mediator.”
we have the mercy of God and he can “pay” through his own mercy
you have the flesh, bone and blood which wasn’t even fused with divine person. so all you have is material substance. material substance will disappear like water disappears from the hand.
your trust is in material substance because your entire theology made god become material substance. your god lost trust in himself and quit.
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“I thank God I halted your ticket to heaven nonsense because you have not been to heaven with pictures of you and God swimming in the Garden of eden so you do not have any proof that you will go to heaven.”
LOL LOL
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You said;
Just A Christian
April 28, 2016 • 5:53 pm
NO I don’t misunderstand ALONE, Yes GOD Is alone there is no other GOD no other eternal being or thing. Unlike Allah who has the Quran.
Thats not the question they Question is what is this GOD, and the answer is he is ONE Being who is THREE persons. He is a complex unity “ECHAD” and he is the only complex unity being that is ONE BEING and THREE PERSONS so in that he is ALONE.
I say;
New International Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
Just A Christian come to Islam. Why?
You said God is alone but John 1:1 said God is not alone. Ken Temple said God the Father is generating God the Son.
Is God the Father not a thing?
Is God the Son not a thing?
Ken Temple argued with madmanna, another Trinitarian on this issue. madmanna had seen the truth about Islam but refused to convert, but instead argued with his Trinitarian friend Ken Temple that how can one God generate another God?
Ken Temple said it was eternal generation like how Sun generating rays. So the Son is eternal and the Father is eternal.
It means your Gods are not alone.
God the Father generates another God the Son from eternity so we have 2 things or 2 persons/beings who are eternal and that is polytheism and idol worship and contradicts the Biblical verses I quoted that said clearly God is One, Only and Alone.
Ken, went further to argue with us that God needs another person to love, because he can exist without love like the Greeko Roman God of love Eros and Cupid.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eros
Who tells you ECHAD is a complex unity? Nabeel Quraish? He does not know Hebrew despite his degree in Christian theology. The Jews who have their language as Hebrew and their Rabbis know Echad to be one but not 3 persons 1 God.
Mormons can also said Echad is complex and so their multi-personal God is the only true God and unique God. Rastafarians will add Emperor Haile Selaissie in the Trinity ans say Oh their God is unique with his multi-personal God and list goes on and on.
We Muslims are clear God is Only One Being who is Alone as the Bible said. God’s attributes like mercy, love, knowledge and His knowledge of the Quran are not persons or being or a thing but just His attributes or characteristics. You twist what I say and try hard to implicate me on what I do not mean or I do not say.
All my Muslim brothers and some knowledgeable Christians understand me and will not buy your twist of my explanation.
Thanks.
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Although Madmanna does not accept the eternal generation of the Son; he accepts the eternal existance of the Son and the Trinity.
I never said “God needs someone to love”.
God is already eternally love and therefore a Trinity.
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“god is eternally love” ?
do you mean “one what” /nature /being = 1
but jesus is “one of ” from a group/team of 3
so you are talking about what goes inside your god, what your “one of” is doing
but the “one of” aren’t god
so what do you mean by “god” when “one of ” is not god , but something without a being
how much “what” is your “one of ” and
how do they make love?
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Does that make madmanna a “heretic”?
And as for your goofy claim that “God is already eternally love…”, why does your “loving” god say that he will burn all unbelievers in hell for eternity? Where is the love?
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No, he is not a heretic because he believes the Son of God existed from all eternity with the Father. ( as far as I understand)
God is also holy and pure and will punish sin. Islam also believes in hell for unbelievers, so your point is stupid.
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LOL, another goofball response. Muslims are not the ones who go around saying “God loves you!”. A loving God would not burn people for eternity, you idiot. Get over the contradictions in your own religion.
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At the risk of attracting the ire of more than one religion, would it not simply be easier for everyone to agree to worship peacefully in their own way? Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Sikh and the rest – the world would be a better place if everyone could at least TRY to respect that different perspectives exist. There is conflict within these religions as well (Protestant vs Catholic, Sunni vs Shia, all because of differences in interpretation that become excuses to trample upon rights and lives). Everyone – EVERYONE – needs to stop it.
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The purpose behind the video and how it connects to the subject (other than to perhaps show how Ken Hovind is horribly ignorant of science?).
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Darthtimon,
Everyone is free to believe what they want. The discussions here are often tense and full of mocking each other, but no one is suggesting that anyone should physically harm another person for their beliefs. Discussions between people of different views often become tense. It would be better to discuss calmly, without having to denigrate anyone, but sometimes it happens.
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I believe in freedom of thought, freedom of religion,freedom of speech, and the freedom to leave one’s religion. Unlike Islam, Islam oppressed the Dhimmi churches for centuries and did not allow for evangelism or new churches, etc. and kills former Muslims.
I wish my Muslim friends peace and they are free to be Muslims, as long as they don’t try to squelch freedom of speech and religion.
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Ken, you are a goofball. Islam liberated Jews and Christians from the clutches of Christian emperors and popes.
Christians killed non-Christians for centuries until secularism reduced their power. In a Christian country, you know as well as I do that non-Christians would not have many rights.
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Ken Temple
You said;
I believe in freedom of thought, freedom of religion,freedom of speech, and the freedom to leave one’s religion. Unlike Islam, Islam oppressed the Dhimmi churches for centuries and did not allow for evangelism or new churches, etc. and kills former Muslims.
I wish my Muslim friends peace and they are free to be Muslims, as long as they don’t try to squelch freedom of speech and religion.
I say;
Anytime you say this, I will remind you how Christians oppressed themselves and killed anyone from their territories until the liberals over power them, beat them up and force freedom of religion on them. I have this link on my favorite and will remind you of that. You say this thousand times, I will reply thousand times.
————————–
Along with the religious consequences of the Reformation and Counter-Reformation came deep and lasting political changes. Northern Europe’s new religious and political freedoms came at a great cost, with decades of rebellions, wars and bloody persecutions. The Thirty Years’ War alone may have cost Germany 40 percent of its population.
————————-
http://www.history.com/topics/reformation
Thanks
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Unfortunately Ken, this is not solely Islam’s problem. Look to America – the religious right there argues against equality for same-sex couples and attempts to squeeze unscientific notions like creationism into public education systems.
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Do you believe that something can come out of nothing?
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I refer you to my previous answer to this question.
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I consider it logically impossible for something to come out of nothing, there needs to be a cause
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Didn’t say otherwise. It doesn’t automatically have to be God though. As I said before, just because we cannot explain something now, it doesn’t mean we will never be able to explain it. History is full of things being attributed to supernatural events that turned out to be otherwise.
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so called “same sex marriage” is not marriage. But they are free to live together, make contracts and wills, etc. – they just cannot call it “marriage”. But nobody of conservative Christians is calling for violence to them. (unlike the Islamic world)
The Oberfeld case was wrong to overturn all the other State legislatures laws that defined marriage as one man and one woman. (As Genesis and Jesus said – Matthew 19:1-5) 😉
Creationism and Intelligent Design should be allowed as options, and have full discussion of the problems with Darwinian Evolution. It is just a theory, not fact.
they should allow debate and use the best critique’s of both/all sides (read best books on both sides of arguments) and let students believe what they want and what their parents have taught them.
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Transgenders are emotionally and mentally disturbed people.
it is the homosexuals who are forcing their views on us, they should keep it in their own house and bedroom.
They accuse conservatives of “bringing the government into the bedroom” – actually they are the ones who are bringing the power of force and government to force the rest of us to agree with them that they are valid marriages, etc.
It is sin and sick, but they are free to do their sin and sickness.
The three lesbians and gays that detroyed the bakers, florists, photographers are very selfish, seeing that they could have found other businesses that would have been happy to do their so called “weddings”. The homosexuals were very wicked and selfish to destroy those Christians’ businesses and lives.
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Whilst Christian violence against homosexuals is rare, less rare is the religiously motivated discrimination against them by businesses. You cite the ‘wickedness’ of same-sex couples who protested against businesses that refused them service – a business is not a religious institution and should not be putting personal beliefs ahead of their commitments to business and/or employment law, which are set to ensure everyone is treated equally.
Marriage is also not an exclusive to Christians and the meaning and purpose of marriage has been redefined before.
Creationism and ID are unscientific. They can be taught as religious theories, but not as scientific ones.
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The whole world, Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, Tribal groups know that homosexuality is wrong. Marriage is a creation ordinance for all of creation. (Genesis 1-2)
Creationism and ID are not un-scientific. One can do observational science in laboratories/testing quite well and be a creationist and/or ID believer.
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Actually, much of the developed world has no problem with homosexuality. It exists in nature after all, having been observed in various species. It is only humans, through our constructs, who have a problem with it.
As I said before, marriage is not a Christian institution – and as I said before – it has been redefined more than once. Attempts to use religion to deny other people rights is a form of forcing views and judgements upon others, and is even worse for the fact that same-sex marriage does nothing to hurt anyone else.
For furthering reading on the subject, see http://www.livescience.com/37777-history-of-marriage.html
Creationism and ID ARE unscientific. They rely on pseudo-scientific principles and YEC in particular is deliberately ignorant of evidence.
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“developed world” = western Europe, Canada, Australia, USA, etc.
homosexuality is a perversion.
same sex marriage hurts children and society; homosexuals should have never been allowed to adopt children. It hurts them.
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No, same-sex marriage does not hurt society or children. Teaching people that religious views trump equality and freedom hurts society.
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It also hurts the homosexual men and women themselves. They are hurting themselves and society and children.
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Would you care to elaborate as to how?
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Once again, Mr. Ken exposes his ignorance of what Christians do. Here are some links for your reading pleasure:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/12/uganda-anti-gay-law-rise-attacks
http://www.voanews.com/content/africas-gays-say-theyre-under-siege–115100674/159757.html
http://madmikesamerica.com/2011/10/uganda-lords-resistance-army-kill-all-gays/
Enjoy! 😉
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Ken Temple
You said;
Although Madmanna does not accept the eternal generation of the Son; he accepts the eternal existence of the Son and the Trinity.
I never said “God needs someone to love”.
God is already eternally love and therefore a Trinity.
I say;
madmanna strongly disagree with you on Trinity as a Trinitarian himself, and today Just A Christian is disagreeing with you in that, he believes God is alone and you believe God the Father and God the Son eternally exists. Your God contradicts the Biblical verses I quoted because it said God is One, Only and Alone and Just A Christian agreed with me and disagreed with your 2 Gods who are God the Father and God the Son eternally existing.
Rastafarians will add Emperor Hailie Selaissie to the Trinity as the unique Trinity for themselves. Hindus have their incarnated Sai Baba who incarnated 2 or more times and they call it unique like how you are calling your God a unique. Who have so many unique Trinity Gods.
If God does not need love to exist, then why “3 Persons/persons 1 God” which is not in the Bible but burrowed from the Graeko-Roman God who is the God of love?
If God does not need love to exist, He will not say that in the Bible and He did not say He needs other persons to love before He becomes the God of love. God did not say He needs other persons to exist before He is God of love.
Your God is not Alone but the God of Just A Christian is Alone.
You killed each other from centuries to centuries because of Trinity. No one killed anyone because of “God is One” because it is clearly written all over the scripture page after page. No single “3 Persons 1 God” or “Triune God” and it has led to killing people including Christian, Muslims, Jews from centuries to centuries and it continue today by Christians.
It is obvious here you, madmanna, JAC etc. strongly disagrees on Trinity.
Thanks.
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No, we are actually in agreement, as far as I can tell, about the Trinity.
Eternal generation of the Son out from the Father (like rays of the sun) vs. eternally existing side by side with the Father is not a major difference, since Madmanna believes in the eternality of the Son.
God does not need anything. But He just is; He was already love from all eternity past, already Father, Son, and Holy Spirit from eternity past. It did not come from Greek or Roman gods, but from the NT, mostly written by Jews.
The famous sayings:
“we have a God-shaped hole in our hearts” Pascal
“we are restless until we find our rest in You, O God.” Augustine
These point to our need for God, who is relationship. The Trinue God is true since only the Triune God can fill the void of spiritual-love-relationship in our heart.
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Ken Temple
You did not find the “Triune God” clearly from the Bible but to quote Pascal and Augustine? No wonder Trinity is a man-made religion from councils to councils.
madmanna clearly states he does not agree with God generating another God.
Just A Christian said clearly his God is alone but you said your God who is God the Father generates another God who is God the Son from eternity loving each other. So your God is not alone. They are two. That is why madmanna and JAC disagreed with you.
I considered you one of a highly learned Christian on this blog. You know that but you have disappointed me to let JAC that I considered not highly learned because of his questions to be very smart than you on this one.
That is why Christians kill themselves from centuries upon centuries till today because the Trinity was a man-made and no rational person will understand it because it is illogical and inconsistent.
Christians will kill others for not believing in it until freedom of religion was forced on Christianity.
Thanks.
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The quotes by Pascal and Augustine are based on the Bible. They were great theologians.
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Augustine was a “great theologian”, eh? Is this the same Augustine who said it was allowed for Christians to forcefully convert the Donatists, even with violence and torture?
“In Christianity itself, there exists the doctrine of St. Augustine of Hippo’s cognite intrare or “lead them in,” which justifies and encourages torture, vandalism, forced conversions and using violence to convert others in the name of Christianity. This doctrine was in place in North Africa after the appearance of the Donatist heresy…” (http://www.radford.edu/~whim/life/articles/islam3.html).
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Most Baptists (the Baptists started a little after the Protestant Reformation- early 1600s, as distinct from the Anabaptists who started around the same time as Luther earlier in 1500s) see the Donatists (late 300s – 400s AD) in many aspects as the most ancient baptists; and since the groups that baptized babies persecuted the Baptists at the time of the Reformation (some of them were executed by drowning for rejecting their infant baptism and having themselves re-baptized based on repentance and faith – see for example Felix Manz in Zurich Switzerland); and we Baptists separate the good of Augustine, Calvin, Luther from a few of their views that were wrong.
Baptists were the first main group that objected to state churches and the unity of the church with the state government. They argued for freedom of religion. This was before the secularists took over. (as Intellect keeps repeating and needs to study the history of Anabaptists and Baptists better.)
( I am a Baptist of the Reformed/Calvinistic position – meaning agreeing with Luther and Calvin in matters of salvation, justification, election, God’s sovereignty, man’s will that is in bondage to sin until the light of the gospel shines in the heart and frees the sinful will (2 Cor. 4:3-6); but disagreeing with infant baptism and state churches (government and the power of the sword wedded to the church). Most baptists of today came from the Baptists of England who objected to the Anglican state church in England, infant baptism, and the rituals and forms that continued to be leftovers from the Roman Catholic culture and traditions. (1500s-1600s)
Augustine did argue (he was wrong), based on a phrase in a verse “compel them to come in” (Luke 14:23) for the power of the state to force the Donatists to return to the Catholic Church of that day; but it was a wrong interpretation, and it was abused in later centuries by the Medieval Roman Catholic Church in Inquisitions (1300s- 1500s; especially the 1400s) and Crusades(1095-1299), etc.
So, Augustine was a great theologian on many things, but that does not mean I agree with him on everything. I totally disagree with state churches and infant baptism; and the USA first amendment – “Congress shall make no law that establishes religion nor prohibits the freedom thereof.” (what most people know as “separation of church and state”) – this was actually a Baptist principle.
If you want a better overview of Augustine, (also Luther and Calvin) see:
John Piper, The Legacy of Sovereign Joy
His lectures on Augustine, Luther, and Calvin are available free at http://www.desiringGod.org
and
Nick Needham, The Triumph of Grace (about Augustine alone)
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Free lecture on Augustine by John Piper – I highly recommend this for your education.
http://www.desiringgod.org/messages/the-swan-is-not-silent
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Piper ditches Augustine’s ecclesiology for his soteriology
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“Inwardly considered, the Reformation of the 16th Century was the triumph of Augustine’s doctrine of Grace over Augustine’s doctrine of the church.” B. B. Warfield
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“Augustine did argue (he was wrong), based on a phrase in a verse “compel them to come in” (Luke 14:23) for the power of the state to force the Donatists to return to the Catholic Church of that day; but it was a wrong interpretation, and it was abused in later centuries by the Medieval Roman Catholic Church in Inquisitions (1300s- 1500s; especially the 1400s) and Crusades(1095-1299), etc. ”
That’s only partially accurate. Augustine also used the example of Paul’s conversion to argue for using violence to forcefully convert the Donatists.
And you are right that it influenced later Christian atrocities. But it was not “abused” at all. Augustine called for torture to be used. Later Christians did just. So, how was it “abused”? The fact is that your “great” theologian Augustine greatly influenced the mass torture and murder of thousands (if not millions) of non-believers in the name of converting them to your religion.
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Faiz,
Can you point me to the exact reference in Augustine where he advocates torture?
Please give the exact reference and context:
http://www.ccel.org/fathers.html
see under “Nicene and Post-Nicene fathers” , series 1, St. Augustine volumes
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Yes, I can. Read Augustine’s letter to Vincentius in which he uses examples from the Bible to compel people to become Catholics: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf101.vii.1.XCIII.html
Some snippets from the letter:
“You know also that sometimes the thief scatters food before the flock that he may lead them astray, and sometimes the shepherd brings wandering sheep back to the flock with his rod.”
“Whatever therefore the true and rightful Mother does, even when something severe and bitter is felt by her children at her hands, she is not rendering evil for evil, but is applying the benefit of discipline to counteract the evil of sin, not with the hatred which seeks to harm, but with the love which seeks to heal. When good and bad do the same actions and suffer the same afflictions, they are to be distinguished not by what they do or suffer, but by the causes of each: e.g. Pharaoh oppressed the people of God by hard bondage; Moses afflicted the same people by severe correction when they were guilty of impiety:2152 their actions were alike; but they were not alike in the motive of regard to the people’s welfare,—the one being inflated by the lust of power, the other inflamed by love. Jezebel slew prophets, Elijah slew false prophets;2153 I suppose that the desert of the actors and of the sufferers respectively in the two cases was wholly diverse.”
“If to suffer persecution were in all cases a praiseworthy thing, it would have sufficed for the Lord to say, “Blessed are they which are persecuted,” without adding “for righteousness’ sake.”2165 Moreover, if to inflict persecution were in all cases blameworthy, it would not have been written in the sacred books, “Whoso privily slandereth his neighbour, him will I persecute [cut off, E.V.].”2166 In some cases, therefore, both he that suffers persecution is in the wrong, and he that inflicts it is in the right. But the truth is, that always both the bad have persecuted the good, and the good have persecuted the bad: the former doing harm by their unrighteousness, the latter seeking to do good by the administration of discipline; the former with cruelty, the latter with moderation; the former impelled by lust, the latter under the constraint of love. For he whose aim is to kill is not careful how he wounds, but he whose aim is to cure is cautious with his lancet; for the one seeks to destroy what is sound, the other that which is decaying.”
It’s pretty obvious that Augustine accepted the use of violence and torture to compel people to become Catholics. Of course, he felt it was due to “love”, but we can’t blame him for thinking that way. After all, Christians like to say that “God loves you”, but forget to mention that this “love” is conditional and will be non-existent when God throws people into hell to burn for eternity! 🙂
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ok, thanks for that – Letter 93 to Vincentius. (408 AD)
whatever Augustine means by “discipline” – it is a very general term, and “the rod”. Whatever he means, I think the later Roman Catholic Church of Inquisitions and Crusades took it too far.
He does seem to name 2 kinds of “discipline” / punishment – exiles and fines.
10. It is manifest, however, that moderate severity, or rather clemency, is carefully observed towards those who, under the Christian name, have been led astray by perverse men, in the measures used to prevent them who are Christ’s sheep from wandering, and to bring them back to the flock, when by punishments, such as exile and fines, they are admonished to consider what they suffer, and wherefore, and are taught to prefer the Scriptures which they read to human legends and calumnies.
I disagree with Augustine – they should have left the Donatists alone.
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how homosexuality harms society, children, and the homosexuals themselves. (AIDs, HIV, gay-bowel syndrome, other diseases)
https://carm.org/gay-marriage-harm
various whole books demonstrate this also, including:
What is Marriage?: Man and Woman: A Defense, by Sherif Girgis, Ryan T. Anderson, and Robert P. George;
Getting It Straight: What the Research Shows about Homosexuality, by Peter Sprigg and Timothy Dailey;
Correct, Not Politically Correct: How Same Sex Marriage Hurts Everyone, by Frank Turek;
Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth by Jeffrey Satinover.
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Ken Temple
You said;
Ken Temple
April 30, 2016 • 11:04 pm
ok, thanks for that – Letter 93 to Vincentius. (408 AD)
whatever Augustine means by “discipline” – it is a very general term, and “the rod”. Whatever he means, I think the later Roman Catholic Church of Inquisitions and Crusades took it too far.
He does seem to name 2 kinds of “discipline” / punishment – exiles and fines
I say;
Very double standard by a Christian like Ken Temple. A Christian has quoted the Bible to commit terrorism through a terrorist like Augustine who is like Bin Landen inspiring Christians to commit genocide, terrorist but Ken Temple will dismiss it and say “whatever Augustine means by “discipline” “ and will use words like terrorism for Islam, Muslims and the Quran.
Wicked Ken Temple will use words like “discipline “ and “took it far“ for Augustine and Christians but will use terrorists for Islam, Muslim and the Quran.
That is what the west is forcing the world to believe. I am glad yesterday Anderson Cooper of CNN told Donald Trump supporter “Why not banning extremist Jews and Christians“. She replied, “We do not have Christian and Jewish terrorist“. Anderson Cooper then corrected her and said “Yes, we have. Extremist Jews killing Israeli Prime Ministers“.
Ken Temple and most evangelical Christians supporting and enabling Biblical Armaggedon which is full of terror and terrorism to kill Palestinians and eventually Jews will be killed and the rest converted to Christianity and people like the Palestinians and Israeli and their babies are suffering from these terrorist evangelical Christians and Zionist but the world is not saying anything.
Ken Temple and evangelical Christians can also be found in refugee camps taking advantage or the war to “save people to Christ“ as the Bible and the Church Fathers like Augustine said above. Christianity is always violence but they turn it against Islam by media.
Thanks.
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D
You said;
Maybe I should say that I believe in one god who has 99 personalities none of which I can truly know?
I say;
But D, personality or personality is not a person. Personality is not a being. A Person/person is a being. Personality has no weight or occupy space. Personality does not have consciousness or intellect. A Person/being has consciousness, intellect and might have weight and occupy space.
So Yes, One Being of Person can have so many personalities. I can say D, your good personalities is when you talk gentle and smile to people. Your smiling to people and talking gentle is not a person but your attributes/characteristics/ qualities etc.
Christians will always change things to fit their believe.
What is personalities
per·son·al·i·ty
1.the combination of characteristics or qualities that form an individual’s distinctive character.
“she had a sunny personality that was very engaging”
synonyms: character, nature, disposition, temperament, makeup, persona, psyche
“her cheerful personality”
2.a famous person, especially in entertainment or sports.
“an official opening by a famous personality”
synonyms: celebrity, VIP, star, superstar, name, famous name, newsmaker, household name, big name, somebody, leading light, luminary, notable, personage, notability; informal celeb
“a famous personality”
Source: https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=8IAqV5e3MIai8weojK-QAQ&gws_rd=ssl#q=what+is+personalities
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