The foundation of the Church stands on its core doctrine that the blood sacrifice alone expiates iniquity and reconciles man with God. In this intriguing broadcast, Rabbi Tovia Singer illustrates that the doctrine of substitutionary atonement—the notion that only the unblemished sacrificial blood can propitiate God’s wrath and atone for sin—is clearly denounced by the prophets of Israel. Moreover, Rabbi Singer demonstrates that the Christian teaching that “Jesus paid the price for your sins” is an alien creed which is incompatible with God’s love and mercy.
Categories: Bible, Christianity, God, Judaism
Blogging Theology 
Wait, so the Bible doesn’t actually teach substitutionary atonement? I’m shocked!
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Penal substitution can occur in different contexts. Exekiel 18 says nothing about penal substitution in a sacrificial context.
The sacrificial penal substitution is an internal covenant between the persons of the trinity. It is not subject to any laws that have been given to man.
The rabbi claims that demanding payment is not mercy but I disagree. It is mercy for the one who has been released from his debt. The idea that atonement is free or that sins can remain unpunished is alien to the bible.
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but not alien to the gospel of mercy preached by Jesus. Its called “forgiveness” a concept seemingly alien to your religion.
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madmanna
Paul Williams. God bless you and I pray Allah for your long life here and the hereafter to teach madmanna a lesson for him to convert to Islam or stubbornly remain in his illogical religion. I hope and pray this is not a dirty language but to bring our noble friend madmanna into the fold of Islam because he will not worship a generated/created God as he clearly advised Ken Temple to stop that.
Now madmanna, you mean there is no forgiveness in Christianity? or you do not know the meaning of forgiveness?
Come here is it
for·give·ness
/ˌfərˈɡivnəs/
noun
the action or process of forgiving or being forgiven.
“she is quick to ask forgiveness when she has overstepped the line”
synonyms: pardon , absolution , exoneration , remission , dispensation , indulgence , clemency , mercy ; reprieve , amnesty ; archaic shrift
“we beg your forgiveness”
Source:https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=3-FIV_LeHsaC8QfOgLHwAQ&gws_rd=ssl#q=what+is+forgiveness
madmanna, forgiveness is free of charge. No atonement for anything. No bribe, no ransom, no remission and nothing but to forgive and let by-bygones be bygones. That is forgiveness. Punishing some one or punishing God is not forgiveness but punishment to hurt God and put him in bodily pains as Christians believe. God does not have bodily pains. If some one has bodily pains, then he is not God and does not deserve worship.
Did you change forgiveness for your whims and caprice? like how you used begotten, son, death etc. for God and do not want challenge on these bad words for God?
Thanks.
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madmanna
Forgive means CANCEL, CANCEL, CANCEL,CANCEL debt but not to pay, pay debt. Payment of debt is not cancelation of debt. It has been paid. Jesus gruesome death for your sins is not forgiveness but he paid for your sins and you a free to sin without punishment.
If you repent, then Jesus death is useless because his death did not pay for your sins just like Muslims and Jews did not have anyone died for their sins and so we need to repent for our sins.
If Jesus had already died for your sins, what are you repenting for as Christians? You are free to continue your sins.
If some one pays for your free grocery it will be sin for the grocery owner to ask for another payment when you buy grocery from him. That is why some Christians sin and think they have ticket to heaven. This lack rationality at all. God said we must be rational and use our brain He gave to us.
Proof:
for·give
/fərˈɡiv/
verb
stop feeling angry or resentful toward (someone) for an offense, flaw, or mistake.
“I don’t think I’ll ever forgive David for the way he treated her”
synonyms: pardon , excuse , exonerate , absolve ; make allowances for, feel no resentment toward, feel no malice toward, harbor no grudge against, bury the hatchet with; let bygones be bygones; informal let off (the hook); formal exculpate
“she would not forgive him”
antonyms: blame , resent
•stop feeling angry or resentful toward someone for (an offense, flaw, or mistake).
“they are not going to pat my head and say all is forgiven”
•cancel (a debt).
“he proposed that their debts should be forgiven”
Source: https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=3-FIV_LeHsaC8QfOgLHwAQ&gws_rd=ssl#q=what+is+forgive
Animal sacrifice is some form of worship to obey God command and use your money to purchase animal but the blood itself is not what God wants.
Thanks.
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madmanna
You said;
The sacrificial penal substitution is an internal covenant between the persons of the trinity. It is not subject to any laws that have been given to man.
I say;
BETWEEN THE PERSONS? OF TRINITY? I am confused madmanna. Which one of the 3 persons of Trinity is this
“Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
madmanna, Yahweh said HE, HE, HE, HE is God and there is NO, NO, NO, NO OTHER. Where did you get the other persons?
It is clear from the Bible, God is One, Only and Alone.
“Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
“You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22
“For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?” 2 Samuel 22:32
“Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
“You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
“O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
“You alone is Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6
“For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God” Psalm 18:31
“You alone, Lord, is God.” Isaiah 37:20
Now, show me clearly like the above in the Bible where God said CLEARLY HE is “3 persons one God”
Yahweh said above He is the only God and He is alone and there is NO ONE ELSE. Are the other persons of Trinity NO ONE ELSE? Is Jesus as a person NO ONE ELSE? If Jesus is NO ONE ELSE then why worship him? If Jesus Christ of Nazareth is SOMEONE ELSE, then he is not God because God is One, Only and Alone and no one else.
Jesus himself supported Yahweh because Jesus never said he is God and he must be worshiped. Do not tell me what the Jews think. They did not think he was a messiah anyway so their thinking does not count to make him God. Let the God declaration comes from the horses own mouth.
Allah exonerated Jesus and his mother in the Quran where Jesus said he never said he or his mother are Gods and must be worshiped. Dr. James White, the Quran is not talking about Trinity or defining Trinity here. Jesus never defined Trinity, so Dr. it will be unfair to demand Allah to ask Jesus about a definition he(Jesus) did not make.
This is what Jesus clearly said and it agrees with the Quran;
“This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only [monos] true God” John 17:3
Jesus said YOU, YOU, YOU THE ONLY, ONLY, ONLY true God. Not referring to himself(Jesus) but someone who said He is the only God who is one and alone clearly.
1.”since indeed God is one” Romans 3:30
2.”to the only wise God, Amen.” Romans 16:27
3.”there is no God but one” 1 Corinthians 8:4
If God knows He will incarnate to man why did He say He is not a man and nothing must be worshiped except him?
It is just like a Father warning his children not to visit a casino to gamble, then changed himself to a casino and expecting them to come in the casino that he is to gamble. What a nonsense.
Lastly madmanna, You said God is not subject to any laws. Exactly, that is what Muslims keeps saying that God is not subject to any laws and can forgive at His will and discretion because He is God and can cancel justice with mercy and forgiveness. Mercy and forgiveness cancels justice. It does not mean God is not just but His Mercy overrides everything that is why He is God.
Punishment at all cost is man made law. Sometimes a judge can show mercy to someone and dismiss that persons case. That is mercy and forgiveness but not punish at all cost. It is pagan gods who punishes at all cost without mercy.
God does not owe anyone and can forgive free of charge. People suffer without anyone’s help so if someone suffers by someone’s fault, Islam takes it as a test but the other can either be punished if he did not sincerely repent or be free by the mercy and forgiveness of God if he SINCERELY REPENTS.
Thanks madmanna, you are right God is not subject to laws of His creations. He is the supreme being and uses his Mercy and forgives to override other things.
In Islam Allah says;
Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “When Allah decreed the creation, he wrote in his Book with him on his Throne: My mercy prevails over my wrath.”
Source: Sahih Bukhari 3022, Sahih Muslim 2751
Thanks.
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After Adam sinned there is no mention in the bible of whether he repented or not. In terms of the solution to sin it is not foundational. Something has to be done to make it work.
God said that he would solve the problem of sin through the conflict that he would initiate between the seed of the woman and the serpent. Repentance has no effect on this conflict and it’s outcome.
Sacrifice shows us how God achieves victory in this conflict.
Genesis 3 v 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
If repentance is all that is needed why does God initiate this emnity in the first place?
Islam just ignores this and other foundational doctrines of the bible although it professes to endorse the same.
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madmanna
Is enmity the only sin? People sleep with other girls/women/boys/men etc. and there is no any enmity among them. They just enjoy sex. Is it not sin?
Some people have the urge to steal, commit adultery and steal but they are not in enmity with any one. So once again you are confusing enmity with sin or deliberately trying to distort facts as Christians always do to stick to their illogical religion.
Thanks.
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madmanna
You said;
God said that he would solve the problem of sin through the conflict that he would initiate between the seed of the woman and the serpent. Repentance has no effect on this conflict and it’s outcome.
I say;
You mean repentance has no effect on Christians and Christianity? Why are Christians repenting for their sins then? It means you have free pass to be committing sins and murdering and raping people because repentance has no effect on you when you sin as a Christian.
No wonder Pastor Jimmy Swaggart, Rev. Eddie Lee Long and the Catholic Church fathers are notorious on illegal sex. To get a free pass and harming peoples children is not Godly my dear madmanna.
Why did Jesus teach
Our Father…………….and forgive us our sins?
Jesus said repentance has effect and you are saying repentance has no effect. You do not believe in Jesus but I believe in Jesus and I always say “Our Father…………….forgive us our sins”. Muslims say this always.
Thanks.
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madmanna
You said;
The sacrificial penal substitution is an internal covenant between the persons of the trinity. It is not subject to any laws that have been given to man.
I say;
BETWEEN THE PERSONS? OF TRINITY? I am confused madmanna. Which one of the 3 persons of Trinity is this
“Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
madmanna, Yahweh said HE, HE, HE, HE is God and there is NO, NO, NO, NO OTHER. Where did you get the other persons?
It is clear from the Bible, God is One, Only and Alone.
“Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
“You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22
“For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?” 2 Samuel 22:32
“Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
“You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
“O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
“You alone is Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6
“For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God” Psalm 18:31
“You alone, Lord, is God.” Isaiah 37:20
Now, show me clearly like the above in the Bible where God said CLEARLY HE is “3 persons one God”
Yahweh said above He is the only God and He is alone and there is NO ONE ELSE. Are the other persons of Trinity NO ONE ELSE? Is Jesus as a person NO ONE ELSE? If Jesus is NO ONE ELSE then why worship him? If Jesus Christ of Nazareth is SOMEONE ELSE, then he is not God because God is One, Only and Alone and no one else.
Jesus himself supported Yahweh because Jesus never said he is God and he must be worshiped. Do not tell me what the Jews think. They did not think he was a messiah anyway so their thinking does not count to make him God. Let the God declaration comes from the horses own mouth.
Allah exonerated Jesus and his mother in the Quran where Jesus said he never said he or his mother are Gods and must be worshiped. Dr. James White, the Quran is not talking about Trinity or defining Trinity here. Jesus never defined Trinity, so Dr. it will be unfair to demand Allah to ask Jesus about a definition he(Jesus) did not make.
This is what Jesus clearly said and it agrees with the Quran;
“This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only [monos] true God” John 17:3
Jesus said YOU, YOU, YOU THE ONLY, ONLY, ONLY true God. Not referring to himself(Jesus) but someone who said He is the only God who is one and alone clearly.
1.”since indeed God is one” Romans 3:30
2.”to the only wise God, Amen.” Romans 16:27
3.”there is no God but one” 1 Corinthians 8:4
If God knows He will incarnate to man why did He say He is not a man and nothing must be worshiped except him?
It is just like a Father warning his children not to visit a casino to gamble, then changed himself to a casino and expecting them to come in the casino that he is to gamble. What a nonsense.
Lastly madmanna, You said God is not subject to any laws. Exactly, that is what Muslims keeps saying that God is not subject to any laws and can forgive at His will and discretion because He is God and can cancel justice with mercy and forgiveness. Mercy and forgiveness cancels justice. It does not mean God is not just but His Mercy overrides everything that is why He is God.
Punishment at all cost is man made law. Sometimes a judge can show mercy to someone and dismiss that persons case. That is mercy and forgiveness but not punish at all cost. It is pagan gods who punishes at all cost without mercy.
God does not owe anyone and can forgive free of charge. People suffer without anyone’s help so if someone suffers by someone’s fault, Islam takes it as a test but the other can either be punished if he did not sincerely repent or be free by the mercy and forgiveness of God if he SINCERELY REPENTS.
Thanks madmanna, you are right God is not subject to laws of His creations. He is the supreme being and uses his Mercy and forgives to override other things.
In Islam Allah says;
Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “When Allah decreed the creation, he wrote in his Book with him on his Throne: My mercy prevails over my wrath.”
Source: Sahih Bukhari 3022, Sahih Muslim 2751
Thanks.
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