Yes, just like the cartoons drawn by Christians showing a 4-eyed god, or the cartoons showing an old man with a beard; rank idolatry and paganism.
Hindu theology actually makes more sense than Christian theology, since in the former, their god is not limited to just “three” persons. The Hindu god has numerous incarnations and personages.
Yes, those Roman Catholics who drew those hideous things were violating the 2nd commandment.
I am a Protestant, so Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox traditions of man and additions to the Scripture and corruptions and heretical and un-Biblical teachings are clearly wrong; and so you don’t have a point against Biblical Christianity .
Yet as a Protestant, you still believe that God exists as 3 “persons”. So, we’re back to the point of this thread. Your god is limited to 3 persons whereas the Hindu god has no such limitations. Hence, it seems that Hindu theology makes a little more sense (but not much!) than Christian theology.
And by the way, your Bible describes “God” as having “feet like bronze” and eyes “like blazing fire”. Is that not rank idolatry and paganism?
And before you try to change subjects and talk about the Quran, let me shut you down right now by saying that when the Quran refers to Allah’s “Hands” or other characteristics, it is not to be taken literally.
Because father, son, holy spirit. The quran was ignorant of this so I understand why you guys don’t get it.
Fail
“And by the way, your Bible describes “God” as having “feet like bronze” and eyes “like blazing fire”. Is that not rank idolatry and paganism?”
No, literary tools to describe a being beyond description. Idolatry is kissing meteorites that look like labia, and circling a man-made cube-shaped tent.
That aside, though, you have no idea who or what you worship.The belief that “jibril” revealed the quran is only a tradition that comes from a hadith in which khadija claims to know that the being that confronted mohammed was the archangel. The being itself did not say it was jibril.
You worship some creature that sent a being that claimed to have words from god, but it didn’t identify itself as god’s archangel, and a mere human being assigned godliness to it.
Why is the mere kissing of the black stone an act of idolatory given that Muslims don’t believe the stone embodies divine properties at all? Also, why is the circumbulation of the Kaabah an act of idolatory rather than a mere ritual akin ‘wuduh’ or the movements involved in performing ‘salat’?
When will you pull your head out of your rear end? LOL!!
“Because father, son, holy spirit. The quran was ignorant of this so I understand why you guys don’t get it.”
LOL, that doesn’t answer the question! Why stop at three? Why is your god so limited? In contrast, the Hindu god was not limited by a specific number!
Your trinity nonsense took centuries to develop. Your predecessors were still holding “councils” even after Islam! I mentioned the Council of Constantinople in 680 previously. There were so many different beliefs that the church had to clarify the “official” stance! LOL!!!
“No, literary tools to describe a being beyond description. Idolatry is kissing meteorites that look like labia, and circling a man-made cube-shaped tent.”
LOL!! So, the following was merely “literary tools”?
“These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze” (Revelation 2:18)
“Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up 10 and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of lapis lazuli, as bright blue as the sky” (Exodus 24:9-10).
Your god had feet and eyes? How many eyes? LOL!!!
And by the way, Fido, Muslims don’t worship the Black Stone or the Kaaba. Idolatry refers to worshiping an object (or in your case, a god-man). Why would kissing be idolatry? Christian logic strikes again!
That is an interesting comment. These are irrelevant rituals that have no meaning? Then what purpose do they serve and why do you do them?
If they are required or commanded by your god, then doing them is an act of worship which would be strange since your god demands absolute worship only to him. If your god has not required you to do these things, then you are revering inanimate objects or at the very least assigning sacredness to material things or behaviours. That is idolatry.
Sure, god in his full glory is beyond description so when human minds in their fallen state behold even a smidge of his glory they can only relate what they see using literary language – literary in the sense of transcendent poetic language to describe in limited human language that which is beyond our comprehension.
No idolatry there.
Where idolatry does exist, however, is in elevating cube shaped tents and stones to sacredness and worshiping a god who has 99 pesonalities and two right hands (yes we know about that!) LOL!!!
Which of your god’s personalities told you to kiss the black stone and was it the same personality that told you to circle a tent? Was there consensus? A vote?
What about the disciples? They are as “one” as farther and son are “one”. It’s convenient to neglect that fact so I understand why you guys don’t want to get it.
“Idolatry is kissing meteorites that look like labia, and circling a man-made cube-shaped tent.”
What a curious statement! D, I assume you realize that if I kiss my parents / wife / children, I am not worshiping them and committing idolatry? Likewise, since when was circumambulation an act of idolatry? I am sure I do not take the roundabout outside my house as the Almighty!
You seem to have a rather healthy imagination if you see a likeness between the Ḥajar al-Aswad and labia…
So what is the point an purpose of circling the kaaba if it is only as significant as taking a roundabout? Are you not engaging in the act of worship when you circle the kaaba? And since it is not your god, then aren’t you worshiping an object?
Do you go around to random places and walk around them as art of your worship? Do you kiss random stones are part of your pilgrimages? If not, then the kaaba and black stone are elevated or sacred.
Since hajj is one of the key requirements a healthy muslim must fulfill, I think there is a fair discussion to be had as to whether it constitutes ‘worship’.
Perhaps a Muslim or two could answer: is salat an act of worship in Islamic teaching?
“That aside, though, you have no idea who or what you worship.The belief that “jibril” revealed the quran is only a tradition that comes from a hadith in which khadija claims to know that the being that confronted mohammed was the archangel. The being itself did not say it was jibril.
You worship some creature that sent a being that claimed to have words from god, but it didn’t identify itself as god’s archangel, and a mere human being assigned godliness to it.
Classic idolatry.”
LOL!! Gibril (as) identified himself on numerous occasions!
Remind me again, which “angel” killed 185,000 Assyrians? Which “angel” wrestled with Jacob? And did Gabriel actually identify himself to Daniel? Christian hypocrisy strikes again!
“Gibril (as) identified himself on numerous occasions!…..And did Gabriel actually identify himself to Daniel?”
Hmm….None of the prophets of the old testament had any doubts that they were in the presence of god or his servants. Your prophet is unique in that – he was terrified as though he had seen a demon.
The bible’s prophets were comforted by the beings that visited them or were shaken by the glory of god. None reacted like your prophet.
“So what is the point an purpose of circling the kaaba if it is only as significant as taking a roundabout? Are you not engaging in the act of worship when you circle the kaaba? And since it is not your god, then aren’t you worshiping an object?
Do you go around to random places and walk around them as art of your worship? Do you kiss random stones are part of your pilgrimages? If not, then the kaaba and black stone are elevated or sacred.”
LOL!! The Kaaba is a house of worship, like a mosque, church or synagogue. Simply going around it is not an act of worship. If Muslims prayed to the Kaaba, then that would be an act of worship. See the difference?
“Hmm….None of the prophets of the old testament had any doubts that they were in the presence of god or his servants. Your prophet is unique in that – he was terrified as though he had seen a demon.:
LOL!! What about Jacob? He had no idea who he was wrestling and despite Jacob’s pleas, the “man” never revealed his name! Christian hypocrisy strikes again!
Also, the “man” who came to Daniel never actually identified himself either. We are told that Daniel somehow knew who he was. Given that Gabriel is not even mentioned in the Tanakh outside of the book of Daniel, one wonders where he was all that time!
“The bible’s prophets were comforted by the beings that visited them or were shaken by the glory of god. None reacted like your prophet.”
LOL!! Jacob was injured by the angel he wrestled with!
“The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel,[h] and he was limping because of his hip. 32 Therefore to this day the Israelites do not eat the tendon attached to the socket of the hip, because the socket of Jacob’s hip was touched near the tendon” (Genesis 32:31).
“Jacob was injured by the angel he wrestled with!”
LOL!! You don’t read too good, try again my dense friend. Jacob knew he had seen god that’s why he said “I have seen god face to face and yet my life has been delivered”. LOL!!!
He didn’t run away and cower not knowing what he had experienced and he certainly did not need his wife to tell him he had seen god. He praised the lord and asked for blessing!
You fail on two counts here, El Stupido, one, jacob knew exactly who had seen, two this passage does away with all your silly islamic pretenses about the “transcendence” of your 99 piece god – the god of the bible can enter creation and allow himself to be touched and seen without causing death to humans and without losing his deity.
LOL!! Darkness cannot conceal the light of truth!
“Also, the “man” who came to Daniel never actually identified himself either. We are told that Daniel somehow knew who he was. ”
Sad, sad Fail.
Your prophet did not know who this being that confronted him was – his wife told him and so he submitted. LOL!!!
Your god needs a human to tell your prophet when he has seen an angel, even though she wasn’t there to witness it herself. God does not work like that in the bible – if your prophet had only known what was in the bible he would have known this. There is no mistaking or confusion when god comes knocking. LOL!!!
Yes or why not 4 or 17 or 934548395843 or any other number.
By saying that God just happens to be like that introduces a brute fact within God.
But God is the antithesis of the brute fact.
Either this universe and existence is a brute fact or it is because of God.
It makes not sense to be a brute fact for a brute fact by definition opposes the principle of sufficient reason…that everything has a sufficient reason for why it is so.
Also the fine tuning of the universe from its very beginning makes the probability too small for even the wildest of imagination.
Thus God exists but then He is not due to brute fact and there are no brute facts within Him. It would a contradiction in terms. Not a mystery, a contradiction in terms.
This post seems a little semantic and pointless. If the question can be asked, why stop at three, then surely the question could be broadened, why stop at one?
No, it doesn’t – you just want to believe it does. LOL!!!
Why does your god stop at three? Is he limited?
“Sure, god in his full glory is beyond description so when human minds in their fallen state behold even a smidge of his glory they can only relate what they see using literary language – literary in the sense of transcendent poetic language to describe in limited human language that which is beyond our comprehension.”
LOL, so your god could not “inspire” human minds to describe his “full glory” without resorting to idolatry? OK, got it! Thanks! LOL!!!
The Bible says that people actually “saw” God and what they saw was that he has feet and eyes. How many eyes does he have? 😉
“No idolatry there.
Where idolatry does exist, however, is in elevating cube shaped tents and stones to sacredness and worshiping a god who has 99 pesonalities and two right hands (yes we know about that!) LOL!!!
Which of your god’s personalities told you to kiss the black stone and was it the same personality that told you to circle a tent? Was there consensus? A vote?
LOL!!!”
LOL!!! It seems that, in your desperation, you find the need to redefine what “idolatry” is! Sorry, not going to work, Fido! You still haven’t explained how kissing an object is “idolatry”. Bad dog!
We don’t need a “consensus”, like your predecessors who had to vote on which books to include in their canon, LOL!!
“Since hajj is one of the key requirements a healthy muslim must fulfill, I think there is a fair discussion to be had as to whether it constitutes ‘worship’.
Perhaps a Muslim or two could answer: is salat an act of worship in Islamic teaching?”
Both the Hajj and Salat are acts of worship. We are obeying our Lord, Allah (Glorified and Exalted be He) and we pray to Him and ask for His forgiveness. What we are NOT doing, as D (whom I call Fido) has suggested, is worshiping the Kaaba or the Black Stone.
“LOL!! You don’t read too good, try again my dense friend. Jacob knew he had seen god that’s why he said “I have seen god face to face and yet my life has been delivered”. LOL!!!
He didn’t run away and cower not knowing what he had experienced and he certainly did not need his wife to tell him he had seen god. He praised the lord and asked for blessing!”
LOL!!! So, Jacob saw your god, wrestled with him and beat him? It seems your god isn’t all that powerful! LOL!!
Why didn’t your god identify himself? What if Jacob was wrong?
You are also ignorant of the fact that most Jews and many Christians actually believe that Jacob wrestled with an angel, not God. Heretic!
“You fail on two counts here, El Stupido, one, jacob knew exactly who had seen, two this passage does away with all your silly islamic pretenses about the “transcendence” of your 99 piece god – the god of the bible can enter creation and allow himself to be touched and seen without causing death to humans and without losing his deity.”
LOL!! Yes, and your god can also be beaten by a human being and plead with him to let him go! He didn’t even know Jacob’s name!
“So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.”
But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”
27 The man asked him, “What is your name?”
“Jacob,” he answered.
28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel,[f] because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.””
LOL!!! Some god!
“LOL!! Darkness cannot conceal the light of truth!”
LOL, yes the “light of truth” that your god could not beat a shepherd nor even knew his name!
“Sad, sad Fail.
Your prophet did not know who this being that confronted him was – his wife told him and so he submitted. LOL!!!”
LOL, deflecting again? Did the angel identify himself to Daniel? Yes or no? Speak boy, speak!
As I already said, Gabriel identified himself on numerous occasions. Daniel had to guess the identity of the angel. And where was Gabriel all this time? He is not even mentioned even once elsewhere in the Tanakh!
“Your god needs a human to tell your prophet when he has seen an angel, even though she wasn’t there to witness it herself. God does not work like that in the bible – if your prophet had only known what was in the bible he would have known this. There is no mistaking or confusion when god comes knocking. LOL!!!”
LOL!! Yes, the way your god works is to take human form, get beaten in a bout of wrestling, plead with a human to let him go and then ask him what his name is. HA! Some god! LOL!!
“So is it possible for one to ‘do’ hajj but not participate in circling the Kaaba or kissing the black stone?
Or is hajj only complete once a Muslim does these things (among others)?”
Circling the Kaaba is an essential part of the Hajj. The Hajj is a set of rituals which commemorate the story of Abraham, Ishmael and Hagar (pbut). However, kissing the Black Stone is not required. One is allowed to simply point to it as well.
“Secondary question: so hajj is worship but the individual components that comprise of doing hajj are not?”
The act of going on the pilgrimage is an act of worship because you are obeying God. The rituals are an act of worship in the same sense. Just like when you pray, you are worshiping God. You are not worshiping the ground (since you would be prostrating on it).
Matthew 28:19 limits the 3 persons to 3. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
2 Corinthians 13:14 limits the 3 persons to 3. “the Love of God (the Father), the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Son), and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit”
Matthew 3:13-17 – there is a limitation of 3 persons. The voice from heaven (The Father), Jesus getting baptized (The Son) and the Holy Spirit coming down in the form of a dove.
Lol, yes we know that already. The question is why? You used the right word: limit. Why is God limited to 3 persons? As I said, the trinitarian god makes less sense than the Hindu god, since the former is limited while the latter is not.
That is just the way God always was and is into eternity past, present, and future. To Him who was and is and is to come, be glory forever. God just always was a Trinity; uncreated, invisible, sovereign, pure, holy, just, and pure love. God is love ( 1 John 4:8). Lover (Father), Beloved (Son), and love (Holy Spirit), in eternity past in loving relationship, holy, pure, good.
“Can you understand how one might see paganism in kissing a stone as an act of worship?”
No, I don’t. Why is kissing associated with “paganism”? Muslims don’t pray to the stone or believe that it has any powers. So, how can it be associated with “paganism”?
“out of curiosity, do you believe Abraham built the Kaaba as well?”
Yes, the Quran states that Abraham (re)built the Kaaba with Ishmael (pbut). It was originally built by Adam (pbuh), and later by Abraham and Ishmael.
You said;
I think kissing an inanimate object as a form of worship would be considered paganism by most accounts. But my opinion doesn’t account for much.
Anyway, good chatting.
I say;
The kissing is not compulsory to complete your Hajj ritual. The kissing is a Sunnah. Many Muslims do not have the chance to kiss the stone and the Hajj is complete. If you visit Jerusalem at the western wall, you will see Jews kissing the wall.
You must know the Jews are not worshiping the wall and Muslims are not worshiping the stone the kiss but think the stone is from God and it is God’s creation.
Muslim never asks the stone to help them or mention the stone in prayers. So the stone is irrelevant when it comes to worship.
The Quran say “do not say 3” to limit God as 3 persons. It is a perfect correction to the Trinitarians who limit God to 3 Persons.
Trinitarianism cannot be idolatry or shirk, since there is no idol and there is only One God in the doctrine. Trinitas Unitas; God is One. Within the one God, the three persons are still ONE God, so no idolatry and no shirk.
I will not share My glory with another. Isaiah 42:8
“restore the glory to Me I had with you in eternity past before the World was created. John 17:5
Means that the sharing of glory was not shirk, since they are one God, not two gods and not three gods.
Using this logic, then Hindu theology is also not idolatry. True, they have idols but they also believe that their god has many incarnations…Shiva, Vishnu, Krishna etc. Therefore, just from a theological point of view, Hinduism would not be counted as “idolatrous”. Of course, your explanation is pure nonsense since you worship a god-man, just like Hindus do. They are one and the same thing: idolatry.
He is also 100 % God, the Word from all eternity (John 1:1-5, 14), the Son (John 17:5) who became human. Philippians 2:5-8. And was still God by nature – both God and man.
The human nature is an added nature in the incarnation. We are worshiping Him as one unified divine person. the worship is directed as His being the eternal Word, the eternal Son, God who voluntarily took on an additional nature, and who out of love died for our sins. Amazing Love!
No, the human nature is NOT added to the Trinity, but only to the Son, the Son has two natures. God the Trinity has only one nature/substance. You really should read a good book on the theology of the Trinity.
What kind of belief is that ? god is Trinity, Jesus is god, god trinity has one nature yet god Jesus has additional human nature added. You worship 4 gods trinity, yhwh, jesus, ghost), three with one nature while god jesus got extra nature.
They were (past tense) astrologers and astronomers and wise in other sciences, but they repented of their false religion, probably Zoroastrianism, and turned to the true God of the Bible. “monotheistic Jews” became Trinitarians in the New Testament – Matthew 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14, etc.
Trinitarianism is Monotheism, anyway. There is no conflict with “Monotheistic Jews”, since all the first Christians were Jews or 99 % of them, and they believed in the Deity of Christ and the Trinity.
“Christians worship god incarnate – so it’s not idolatry. It really is not hard you guys.”
Where did Jesus say to worship him? Jesus worshipped God alone who was seperate from himself:
And the devil said to him, “To you I will give their glory and all this authority; for it has been given over to me, and I give it to anyone I please. If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours.” Jesus answered him, “It is written,
‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve only him.’” – Luke 4:6-8
It’s one of many. Why would Jesus say to worship God alone and not reference himself if he is God? God in the Tanakh was hardly shy about calling people to worship him alone. The passage i mentioned shows Jesus distinguishing between himself and God.
Another example could be:
Jesus said to her, “Do not hold on to me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” – John 20:17
Jesus’ mission was not to incranate in his full glory. This is why the quranic objection of “where did jesus say to worship him?” is so absurd and ignorant.
If the quran understood the christian doctrines of incarnation, atonement, forgiveness of sin, it would not have asked such silly question. Jesus was the suffering servant, god through incarnation, not god in his full glory. He did not come to demand worship, but to atone for sin.
It’s moot to ask why he didn’t demand worship since it misses the point of christian belief about jesus and shows an immense quranic ignorance of doctrines it claims to be correcting.
“The passage i mentioned shows Jesus distinguishing between himself and God.
Another example could be:
jesus said to her, “Do not hold on to me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” – John 20:17”
I agree that it distinguishes between jesus and god, but the only distinction being made is between jesus human and divine natures, not his deity.
Your really need to get over this islamic obsession with the silly argument that jesus never demanded worship – he did not incarnate to demand worship so it is a completely irrelevant point.
Jesus’ mission was centered on the coming Kingdom of God and to warn his fellow Jews to obey Torah and reject the man made traditions that had since taken precedence. Jesus was an Apocalyptic Prophet as well as claiming to be the Messiah of Israel.
It was not until later when there people began to identify Jesus as having a universal message. Mainly due to the Jewish peoples’ rejection of him as Messiah. See for reference Pauls’ statement about going to the Gentiles after failing to convert the Jews.
With respect to your statement that Jesus was only distinguishing between himself his human and divine nature. My simple response is where does Jesus say that in the passage? There is no reference to him having a dual nature but only one nature.
Human nature. It seems you are inserting your own Christian bias in order to make the text conform when on the surface it does no such thing. So I ask again according to Jesus where does he say to worship him as God?
“Jesus’ mission was centered on the coming Kingdom of God and to warn his fellow Jews to obey Torah and reject the man made traditions that had since taken precedence. Jesus was an Apocalyptic Prophet as well as claiming to be the Messiah of Israel.”
The quran says nothing like that – anywhere. But you are correct in an unexpected way. Jesus did indeed teach that jewish religious leaders (not “the jews”) had perverted the spirit of god’s law and teaching and were imposing a kind of “islam” on the people.
This faith was similar to islam – faith in man-made traditions over the spirit of the law and god’s word, a works based system of reward and punishment which reduced god to a mere supernatural accountant of your sins, and the self-aggrandizement of clerics.
Islam is similar – much of the practice of the faith is based on tradition and not on the word of god. Circling the kaaba 7 times, praying 5 times a day, wudu, the salat rituals, none of these are explicitly taught in the quran but come from the hadith which are man-made traditions. Nowhere in the quran does god state that he has 99 attributes, nowhere does he say that you have to say the shahada, and nowhere does he say that he cannot enter creation. These are all man-made traditions established after the fact.
Either way, the quran reveals nothing worthwhile about jesus’ life and ministry that we should take seriously.
“It was not until later when there people began to identify Jesus as having a universal message.”
That’s because he had a universal message regardless of the opinions of men.
“With respect to your statement that Jesus was only distinguishing between himself his human and divine nature. My simple response is where does Jesus say that in the passage? ”
He makes that clear elsewhere in scripture – I think you know that. Oh, and in verse 22 he imparts the holy spirit – of god – to the disciples. A mere human being…with one nature? Human nature?
And he said this somewhere….”For when you see me, you are seeing the one who sent me. I have come as a light to shine in this dark world, so that all who put their trust in me will no longer remain in the dark.”
And this…”If you had really known me, you would know who my Father is. From now on, you do know him and have seen him!”
And….I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins”
And….”The Father and I are one.”
There are plenty more places where jesus states clearly that he is the divine son.
“So I ask again according to Jesus where does he say to worship him as God?”
God Bless you. Christians will not accept the truth the Quran is teaching them. This blog is doing well and I pray it continues forever.
Ken Temple said;
Ken Temple
May 15, 2016 • 1:57 pm
The human nature is an added nature in the incarnation. We are worshiping Him as one unified divine person. the worship is directed as His being the eternal Word, the eternal Son, God who voluntarily took on an additional nature, and who out of love died for our sins. Amazing Love
I say;
Why separate the divine person from the human person and claim only the human person dies? Is the human part not a person? Every 100% man is a person. A 100% human who is not a person is not 100% human.
So, Christians, you separate the persons of one of your God(Jesus) where it suits you and combine them where it does not suit you. This is cheating by you and your God.
The Mormons can also say their God is One and Multi-personal like your God who expands when someone is born and shrinks when someone dies and change the persons in their God as they wish.
THE BIBLE SAID GOD DOES NOT CHANBE BUT THE SAME, SO TO CLAIM GOD ADDED A NATURE TO HIMSELF IS A BIG BLASPHEME
Human beings are human beings but not nature. Dr. David Kemball-Cook said, “humans die and not their nature”. Jesus as hybrid being has 2 beings/persons not 1 being. It is impossible. Nature is not a being/person but a Man or God is a Being.
Jesus claim he was sent by God and it means he did not voluntarily came to this earth to die for any ones sin.
Mathew 15:24
New International Version
He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
New Living Translation
Then Jesus said to the woman, “I was sent only to help God’s lost sheep–the people of Israel.”
English Standard Version
He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
Ken, AMAZING LOVE? You must read the Bible where Jesus said he will kill anyone who will not allow him to rule them. The is no amazing love in Christianity but wishful thinking when there is hell fire waiting for those who reject Christ.
Amazing love will put all of us in paradise.
Islam makes sense in that, God created us with freewill, choices and intellect which His other creations do not have. It means as a human you have the intellect, choice and will to take someone’s live, cheat, rape, rob etc.
Islamic God out of love sends his messengers, books, Angels etc. to GUIDE US into His right path. If you reject the path and continue to use your freewill and choice to do wrong you will be punished if you do not sincerely repent.
God said His mercy is more than His wrath, so human beings must repent and they always have chance for the love He has for them.
God clearly stated in the Quran that He will not punish anyone if He does not send a warner for them. This is the Amazing love. Where Christian God will punish Moses, Abraham and the rest because they do not believe Jesus is God.
“God Bless you. Christians will not accept the truth the Quran is teaching them. This blog is doing well and I pray it continues forever.”
If the quran has so much to teach, why is muslim religious practice derived largely from the hadith? These traditions have little historical credibility and are not the literal word of your god.
You said;
Trinitarianism cannot be idolatry or shirk, since there is no idol and there is only One God in the doctrine. Trinitas Unitas; God is One. Within the one God, the three persons are still ONE God, so no idolatry and no shirk.
I say;
Then tell Dr. James White, henceforth you and him must not call Mormon, Rastafarians, Hindus etc. as idol worshipers because they also believe in ONE God in multi-persons as you believe. Do not bully us also to say your multi-person God is superior than them.
Muslims, Jews, Unitarians Christians and most people in the world believe God is One without any persons. I cannot say my Muslim God is superior than Jewish or Unitarian Christians God because we all believe in the God of Abraham who is not Multi-personal.
Any Muslim will tell you his One God of Abraham is the same as the Unitarian Christian or Jew one God of Abraham.
Ken and Dr. White are in the line of idol worshipers by worshiping a multi-personal God.
Not true, the Mormons and Hindus worship many gods. (they are not persons within the One God; especially in Mormonism, they are separate gods ruling over their own planets and every male will evolve into a god with many wives on their own planet and pro-create lots of inhabitants for each planet. That is why they believed in polygamy in the beginning.
“They were (past tense) astrologers and astronomers and wise in other sciences, but they repented of their false religion, probably Zoroastrianism, and turned to the true God of the Bible. “monotheistic Jews” became Trinitarians in the New Testament – Matthew 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14,”
Um no. The only reason they even came to see Jesus was because they had seen a star. Hence, they were practicing astrologers:
“…Magi from the east came to Jerusalem 2 and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star</b? when it rose and have come to worship him.”"
They said they saw "his star"! Which star was that?
“If the quran has so much to teach, why is muslim religious practice derived largely from the hadith? These traditions have little historical credibility and are not the literal word of your god.”
LOL, you are not an expert on the Ahadith. Will you look up the studies of actual scholars, as I have suggested? Scholars like Harald Motzki and Fuat Sezgin have done extensive studies (a lot more than your pathetic Google searches 😉 ), and they have concluded that the Ahadith are historically reliable.
The Quran is a guide. The Ahadith provide the technical detail. For example, the Quran teaches the importance of prayer. The Ahadith teach us how to pray properly. Get it now? Good doggie!
Your prayer and worship rituals come from the pagans. No jewish prophet would have accepted that – and god does not accept it.
Your hadith are man-made and your prayer and worship rituals fill in the blanks by borrowing from the pagans because your god’s word was too unclear and largely irrelevant to your practices.
You have all but admitted this. The torah spells out worship and the law down to the minutest detail – the quran is so vague that islam had to plagiarize pagan rituals to give it any meaning. LOL!!
I have not mentioned the Qur’an so i’m at a loss as to why you brought it up since thus far I have only quoted the Gospels. Besides your opinions regarding the Prophet tradition and more specifically its role in Islam is not the topic of this discussion but rather the claims of Jesus being God.
Moving on to your claim that verse 22 of Johns Gospel says that Jesus imparts the Holy Spirit presumably by his own power and authority rather than Gods. Here is the text:
As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. – John 17:21b-22
Jesus hear is not declaring himself to be God however is affirming that God has sent him and is therefore sending his disciples to continue preaching his message wherein his finalises this by giving them the Holy Spirit. However nowhere does he indicate that he was the one doing this by his own power, if you read this statement in context with verse 17 it would be more sensible in my opinion to say that God has given him the Holy Spirit and the means to pass it on to others.
None of the other examples you provided have Jesus declaring his deity but only describing his relationship with God which i agree was very intimate as one would expect between God and one of his beloved Prophets. Truthfully I think you have failed to provide a cogent argument as to why anyone should believe Jesus claimed to be God instead you launched into a tirade against Islam and when you did provide some examples from the Bible they were hardly clear, if this is such an important doctrine to believe in for our salvation should Jesus have been more clear?
“I have not mentioned the Qur’an so i’m at a loss as to why you brought it up since thus far I have only quoted the Gospels. Besides your opinions regarding the Prophet tradition and more specifically its role in Islam is not the topic of this discussion but rather the claims of Jesus being God.”
You certainly have raised that point of argument elsewhere and raised it again – but if these objections are yours alone, then my criticism applies to you; you have to be ignorant of christian belief to consider such an argument. His ministry was one of atonement, and forgiveness of sin, via incarnation – a suffering servant, not god in his full glory.
“As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. – John 17:21b-22”
LOL!! Okay then.
He breathed out his spirit – it’s as clear as it can get and echoes god breathing his spirit into adam. The holy spirit only proceeds from the breath of god…….?
“However nowhere does he indicate that he was the one doing this by his own power, if you read this statement in context with verse 17 it would be more sensible in my opinion to say that God has given him the Holy Spirit and the means to pass it on to others.”
Uh-huh. It says nothing like that. You know what they say about opinions – your opinion is that the quran’s ignoring basic christian doctrines is strong evidence that it was familiar with them. Excuse my lack of faith in your opinions.
“None of the other examples you provided have Jesus declaring his deity but only describing his relationship with God which i agree was very intimate as one would expect between God and one of his beloved Prophets.”
LOL!! Okay.
“Truthfully I think you have failed to provide a cogent argument as to why anyone should believe Jesus claimed to be God instead you launched into a tirade against Islam and when you did provide some examples from the Bible they were hardly clear, if this is such an important doctrine to believe in for our salvation should Jesus have been more clear?”
Yeah. No.
I disagree – I provided examples that are as clear as clear can get. Why you find them unclear is between you and your brain.
And where did I launch into a tirade against islam? That alone makes me wonder if you tend to see things in texts that aren’t there.
Try again patrice, jesus’ claims to deity are clear and unequivocal – why you don’t understand that, I can’t know. LOL!!!
God used the star to guide them from the east. God was speaking to them through His creation. They were not worshipping the star and nothing wrong with science of Astronomy. But they repented of paganism and astrology.
they probably also knew the prophesy of Daniel 9:24-27 about the Messiah – since Daniel spoke and wrote while in Persia and Babylon 500 years earlier and there in Persia they passed the prophesy down until it was time – until the 483- 490 years were up – “Until Messiah the Prince appears”
Oh good Lord. So many assumptions. Nothing of what you said is found in the gospel. What we do know is that the book of Isaiah very clearly condemns astrologers:
“All the counsel you have received has only worn you out! Let your astrologers come forward, those stargazers who make predictions month by month, let them save you from what is coming upon you” (Isaiah 47:13).
These “Magi” came to “worship” Jesus only after seeing “his star”! Hence, it was through ASTROLOGY that they came to know of Jesus’ birth! WOW!!
Also, according to Justin Martyr, the Magi came from Arabia, not the from Babylonia. Another example of the contradictory oral traditions from which your gospels originated.
And again, one wonders what Mary, a monotheist, was thinking when these astrologers came to worship her son…
Also, it is interesting that, as with many stories found in Matthew, the Magi story is not found in the other gospels. Did the author make up the story? It seems likely. It is also likely that he was influenced by Roman sources. As Geza Vermes stated:
“It is conceivable that another relatively recent event influenced Matthew and prompted him to introduce the Magi into his narrative. This was the visit to Rome in the late 50s or early 60s AD of the Armenian king Tiridates and his courtiers, whom Pliny the Elder designates as Magi (Natural History 30:6, 16-17). This Tiridates is said to have come to Rome to worship the emperor-god Nero in the same way as Matthew’s Magi came to worship the newborn Messiah of the Jews. A further curious coincidence which may have caught Matthew’s attention is a detail noted by the Roman chronicler Cassius Dio. After Tiridates had been confirmed by Nero as king, this group of ‘Magi,’ like the ‘wise men’ of the New Testament, did not return by the same route as the one they followed coming to Rome (Roman History 63:1-7)” (http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/02/jesus-in-bible-and-quran.html#_edn38)
“Not true, the Mormons and Hindus worship many gods. (they are not persons within the One God; especially in Mormonism, they are separate gods ruling over their own planets and every male will evolve into a god with many wives on their own planet and pro-create lots of inhabitants for each planet. That is why they believed in polygamy in the beginning.”
Hindus actually believe that the “avatars” are incarnations of their god.
The Magi were probably made up of ethnic Persians, Kurds (from the ancient Medes), Arabs (the Myrrh was famous from Yemen and Oman and Qatar), Babylonians, and Assyrians, as they were from different ethnicities from all over the Persian Empire, which included parts of Arabia and Mesopotamia (today called Iraq). There were more than 3 of them. The text in Matthew does not say “three”.
Magi – μαγοι comes from مغ (Moq), the priests of Zoroastrians, but since Greek did not have غ gh, it became g. and later was translated into مجوس into Arabic, because Arabic does not have hard G as in Girl, which Iranians do have and add a line to k ک ، making it گ . The English is Magi, and later the word “magic” developed from that.
They were astrologers, as the gospel of Matthew shows. Astrologers are condemned in the Tanakh. Also, the story of the Magi was probably just an invention anyway, perhaps taken from Roman accounts of Tiridates and Nero.
No, the story is not made up. Matthew 2:1-12 is historically true just as it says it is. Liberals and skeptics and unbelievers don’t count for sound exegesis and spiritual truth.
If you doubt the Magi just because it is only in one gospel; then you must believe in the trials, crucifixion, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, since they are in all four.
LOL, not at all. First of all, Matthew is known to add new stories to his gospel. Another example is the so-called “Massacre of the Innocents”, an event which was not recorded in the other gospels and even historical sources from the time.
Second, the accounts of the trial, crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection are all contradictory, written by anonymous people. There is no reason to believe them. Other non-canonical sources provide further reasons not to believe the gospels. The Didache fails to mention the resurrection. Justin Martyr provides non-canonical versions of Jesus’ birth, including the Magi story. All of this proves that the NT is a mish-mash of competing oral traditions. What is history and what is myth has been mixed up.
They don’t contradict each other, they just give different details. Together, they give all the details we need from 4 different angles. Like 4 eyewitnesses of a car crash, one eyewitness on each corner. I recommend A Harmony of the Gospels by Thomas and Gundry – one can see how all 4 fit together. Powerful Word of God that spiritually feeds the soul. Hebrews 4:12
It can only mean one thing: God is still God, and Jesus is always Human, there is no actual union, therefore the so called “hypostatic union” is nonsense.
“They don’t contradict each other, they just give different details. Together, they give all the details we need from 4 different angles. Like 4 eyewitnesses of a car crash, one eyewitness on each corner. I recommend A Harmony of the Gospels by Thomas and Gundry – one can see how all 4 fit together. Powerful Word of God that spiritually feeds the soul. Hebrews 4:12”
“Different details” = “contradictions”. They are one and the same thing. If I said that I saw Bigfoot today, and it was 7ft. tall and had brown fur, whereas someone else said that he also saw Bigfoot but it was 9ft. tall and had black fur, the two accounts provide “different details” and hence are “contradictory”.
“Avatars are more like Gnostic emanations or manifestations, not really a true incarnation like Jesus was. Totally different.”
Why are you redefining the meaning of “avatars”? According to the Hindu website I referenced above:
“When God incarnates himself upon earth, it is called avatar. […] God reincarnates himself on earth in an earthly form to restore balance reestablish dharma”.
Do each of the Avatars have the same nature as the one Brahma, and are they eternal into the past, and then become a human in history by being conceived in the womb of a virgin and going through 9 months gestation period and then born as babies and then grow normally, like Jesus did?
“Do each of the Avatars have the same nature as the one Brahma, and are they eternal into the past, and then become a human in history by being conceived in the womb of a virgin and going through 9 months gestation period and then born as babies and then grow normally, like Jesus did?”
It would appear so. For example, Vishnu and Krishna are believed by Hindus to be eternal, even though Krishna is supposed to be the “manifestation” of Vishnu. See the following: http://btg.krishna.com/whos-first-vishnu-or-krishna
Some snippets from the article:
“Vishnu and Krishna exist eternally, though it might be said that one is the source of the other, much like the sun and its rays: The sun globe is “prior” in the sense that its rays emanate from it, and not the other way around. But they both exist simultaneously…”
“…Vaishnavism acknowledges a form of polymorphic monotheism. That is to say, it holds that there is one God who appears in numerous manifestations, each distinct and unique. These manifestations, moreover, are considered equal and yet hierarchical as well. They are one, and yet different.”
“…while full manifestations of God are all equal, there is a sense in which one comes from the other, with Krishna existing at the very beginning.”
“In conclusion, the Gaudiya Vaishnava vision of the divine is that all forms of Godhead are equal—since there is only one God—but Krishna enjoys a special position as the “candle who lights the other candles.”
It’s funny that this is also similar to what I hear from Christians all the time!
Were they conceived in a virgin and grew for 9 months in the womb and then born as babies and lived and grew into manhood for 20-30 years? (and in real history ?)
While i have in other threads utilized passages of the Qur’an if I thought they were relevant to the discussion I have never once used them as arguments in and of themselves with regards to the deity of Christ as I am not a Muslim it would be pointless for me to do so.
Moving on. You say that the passage in John 20 about Jesus giving the spirit to his disciples as equivalent to God breathing his spirit into Adam. I am a little confused about this as God there was bringing Adam into existence! Are you saying Jesus was creating the disciples while they were already grown men! Context dear boy.
You say that Jesus’ mission was about incarnation, dying for sins, and atoement however where did Jesus say this? Jesus never taught he was incarnated this was a later idea. Jesus cannot die for anyones sins since both the Bible and Qur’an state that no man can avail the sins of another. Jesus’ original message is perfectly in line with the previous Prophets such as Moses and Abraham. Return to that message with swiftness you never know you might even receive a full name!!! 😉
“You say that the passage in John 20 about Jesus giving the spirit to his disciples as equivalent to God breathing his spirit into Adam. I am a little confused about this as God there was bringing Adam into existence!”
Really? That’s what you understood? I said “echoes” god’s actions in genesis, not “recreates” or “does exactly as god did”. That clear now? LOL!!! I’m not seeing why that was such a conundrum for you, I was pretty clear about it. But I can see that you are very confused.
“jesus never taught he was incarnated”
Wut?!! This again?! He taught that he was divine – as I showed you – and so was god incarnate. Easy and simple.
“Jesus cannot die for anyones sins since both the Bible and Qur’an state that no man can avail the sins of another.”
Uh-huh…..
“the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many”.
“Really? That’s what you understood? I said “echoes” god’s actions in genesis, not “recreates” or “does exactly as god did”. That clear now? LOL!!! I’m not seeing why that was such a conundrum for you, I was pretty clear about it. But I can see that you are very confused.”
dear patrice, ignore this clap trap and have a cup of tea and have a read of this
I disagree with your parallel between Jesus in John 20 and God creating Adam on two counts, the first being that Jesus only a few verses prior had declared that he had a God and following on from that Jesus therefore could not of himself give anyone the Holy Spirit unless by the authority of the God he worshipped.
You say that I have misunderstood you by referring that Jesus never taught the Incarnation by the fact you have apparently clearly demonstrated Jesus claimed to be God. I disagree with your declaration of victory as you have systematically failed to provide any clear evidence as I have demonstrated in my responses thus far.
Finally you claim that the passage you quoted teaches that Jesus came to die for sin. I am admitedly struggling with this somewhat due to its vagueness especially when you read the context of Mark 10. James and John desiring to be close to their beloved Master even to the point of suffering the same trials as him. Jesus concludes with the statement about giving his life as ransom.
But with that in mind, if Jesus was supposed to die for sin why are so many people including Christians still sinning? The world is still in a mess as it was back in the 1st century. If this was truly Jesus’ mission it is hard to say it was a success.
“I disagree with your parallel between Jesus in John 20 and God creating Adam on two counts, the first being that Jesus only a few verses prior had declared that he had a God and following on from that Jesus therefore could not of himself give anyone the Holy Spirit unless by the authority of the God he worshipped.”
I can see now why you are so easily fooled into believing that dismissive quranic references to christian beliefs somehow indicate a profound knowledge of christian doctrines.
It is not that hard, patrice. Try to think objectively. Jesus makes statements that show his divinity and he makes statements that show his full humanity – hence the two natures of christ. Your mistake is to presume that it has to be one or the other. That is just sloppy thinking and poor reasoning and explains your confusion.
“I disagree with your declaration of victory as you have systematically failed to provide any clear evidence as I have demonstrated in my responses thus far.”
Of course, you disagree with me – you also think that the quran’s complete and utter ignorance of christian doctrine is an indication of its acquaintance with chrsitian doctrine. That makes sense to you and probably to the muslims on this blog, but not to anyone else. All you’ve demonstrated is poor reasoning skills – that is not my problem.
“But with that in mind, if Jesus was supposed to die for sin why are so many people including Christians still sinning?”
That’s a little bit dumb patrice – I don’t know why you think you are so versed on christian doctrine when you repeatedly embarrass yourself with silly questions like that. I’ll try to explain, but I know I’m fighting an uphill battle. LOL!!
Jesus paid the price that god requires for justice to be administered. Your islamic god is not a just god – he allows injustice to persist since he simply ignores sin and forgives. Thus, you worship an imperfect creature who is not perfectly just.
It’s all in the bible, you should read it sometime. LOL!!
God is merciful and compassionate. He can forgive people without punishment if he so wishes. That is his prerogative. God does not require the death of an innocent human being before he can forgive us. That is unjust.
You said;
I can see now why you are so easily fooled into believing that dismissive quranic references to christian beliefs somehow indicate a profound knowledge of christian doctrines.
It is not that hard, patrice. Try to think objectively. Jesus makes statements that show his divinity and he makes statements that show his full humanity – hence the two natures of christ. Your mistake is to presume that it has to be one or the other. That is just sloppy thinking and poor reasoning and explains your confusion.
I say;
Christians from first century till today do not believe Jesus is God except Trinitarian Christians. Jehovah Witness, Unitarian Christians and other Christian sects do not believe Jesus is God and do not believe Jesus said he is God anywhere.
They do not believe in Quran but has the wisdom like Quran and Patrice who is not a Muslim to challenge you for the proof that Jesus said he is God.
You are not able to provide a proof but to resort to insults. No wonder a hybrid God Man worshiper like you will follow the path of satan to influence people to worship a man.
Jews do not believe Jesus is God but they do not believe in the Quran either. Any ordinary person who is not religious will agree God is One and Only and Jesus is man but not God.
If one rejects your Trinity it does not mean he necessarily believe in the Quran but believe just like the Quran that Trinity is stupid.
Patrice said he is not a Muslim, so respect his position.
“God is merciful and compassionate. He can forgive people without punishment if he so wishes. That is his prerogative. ”
And how is justice served in this case? For all those yazidis who have been gang-raped and decapitated by the (Not (LOL))) Islamic State, how are the sins committed against them atoned for if your god randomly decides to forgive those savages who committed the crimes? And how can you know he won’t? And if he does, injustice continues to exist.
God is wise as well as just and merciful. His actions are not random. He is not compelled to always punish people. He can show mercy if he wishes. (Think of the story of the prodigal son in Luke 15 – same principle). Best to leave that in the hands of God.
But it IS contrary to justice that God should require the torturing to death of an innocent human being to atone for guilty persons sin. This is contrary to the teaching of the prophets eg read Ezekiel 18.
“But it IS contrary to justice that God should require the torturing to death of an innocent human being to atone for guilty persons sin.”
That isn’t christian doctrine – the doctrine says that god took the sins of the world upon himself through the incarnation, not that he chose a random human being to sacrifice. Christians are saying that god did exactly what you say your god can do – he chose to take on the atonement of sin upon himself.
If you don’t understand that, you will never be a serious commentator on christianity.
Your understanding of Christian soteriology does not solve the problem: God has to punish an innocent being (himself or his Son) to obtain forgiveness of sins. This violates the important biblical principle that only the guilty should be punished – read Ezekiel 18.
“Your understanding of Christian soteriology does not solve the problem: God has to punish an innocent being (himself or his Son) to obtain forgiveness of sins. This violates the important biblical principle that only the guilty should be punished – read ”
What happened to your claim that god can do what he wants? Can he or can’t he?
No body can hold God or someone ransom except God pays. It is blaspheme to think that. You did not answer Patrice concern. Jesus never claimed the following;
———————-
You say that Jesus’ mission was about incarnation, dying for sins, and atoement however where did Jesus say this? Jesus never taught he was incarnated this was a later idea. Jesus cannot die for anyones sins since both the Bible and Qur’an state that no man can avail the sins of another. Jesus’ original message is perfectly in line with the previous Prophets such as Moses and Abraham. Return to that message with swiftness you never know you might even receive a full name!!!😉
———————–
Once again God bless Patrice for following the truth and rejecting untruth. That alone will lead you to God and to the best religion of truth no matter what religion is that it will be the religion of truth InshaAllah. I pray for God to continue to GUIDE YOU to the right path. The path of those whom He has Blessed, not the path of those who are astray like D and Temple who will not hear or listen to truth.
They will stick to the lies they hear from their forefathers and say God died for their sins and say God do not die and they will say they worship Jesus as a Person in whole but divide the persons of Jesus into 2 person, i.e. God and Man and say the man died but the God person did not die.
Ken Temple
You said;
Do each of the Avatars have the same nature as the one Brahma, and are they eternal into the past, and then become a human in history by being conceived in the womb of a virgin and going through 9 months gestation period and then born as babies and then grow normally, like Jesus did?
I say;
Emperor Haile Selaissie and other Trinitarian Gods are eternal into the pas, and then become a human in history by being conceived in the womb of a virgin and going through 9 months gestation period then born as babies and then grow normally, like Jesus did.
It is easy for any one to create a Trinitarian God. But no one can create the Only One, True and Alone God of Abraham.
The God of Abraham never said he stayed in a womb of a virgin woman.
The God of Abraham clearly stated in so many scriptures of Him and verses that He is One, Only and Alone and full stop, period, (.), dot, stop there, stay there, do not add anything He(God) did not say He is etc.
“Were they conceived in a virgin and grew for 9 months in the womb and then born as babies and lived and grew into manhood for 20-30 years? (and in real history ?)
Hinduism theology had no connection to history.”
Of course they were “conceived”. What difference does it make if they were conceived in a virgin or not? They were still conceived!
You move the goal post as soon as you realize you are walking on thin ice. How do you know “Hinduism theology had no connection in history”? You are assuming too many things without bothering to even research it. Not very objective of you!
You seem to still think you have demonstrated that Jesus claimed to be God despite hardly answering any of my points! What an odd definition of victory 😉
You say that i am guilty of a black and white view on Jesus however I have done nothing but quote Jesus’ words in context (something you have repeatedly failed to do). The truth is that John 20 states both that Jesus had a God and that he gave the disciples the gift of the Holy Spirit. If Jesus is not God as the passage states he could not have given the spirit of God to anyone without first having Gods permission:
17 Jesus said to her, “Do not hold on to me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” 18 Mary Magdalene went and announced to the disciples, “I have seen the Lord”; and she told them that he had said these things to her.
19 When it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and the doors of the house where the disciples had met were locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord. 21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
Of course, you disagree with me – you also think that the quran’s complete and utter ignorance of christian doctrine is an indication of its acquaintance with chrsitian doctrine. That makes sense to you and probably to the muslims on this blog, but not to anyone else. All you’ve demonstrated is poor reasoning skills – that is not my problem. – John 20:17-22 NRSV
Perhaps you need to take it up with Jesus as your problem seems to be with him 😉
Finally you say that Jesus ‘paid the price’ what do you mean by this? Paid the price for justice? And this couldn’t be done before? What about all the sacrifices and talk of repentance? What about the ritual of Baptism which was clearly something that pre-existed Christianity? And you still haven’t explained if this is the case why people still sin including Christians? How can justice be truly achieved if humanity (the guilty party) are still commiting the same crimes over and over again?
“Finally you say that Jesus ‘paid the price’ what do you mean by this? Paid the price for justice? And this couldn’t be done before? ”
they think sin is a transaction. little do they know that sins aren’t passed around like money .
jesus couldn’t pass his flesh to every rapist on planet earth because that would be an injustice to the victim of rape regardless how many times a god willingly passes himself to rapists .
Where have I claimed victory? Please point it out exactly where I said I have a victory. This shows even more clearly that you don’t have a solid grasp of rational thought. You asked me where jesus said he was divine, where he said he came to die for our sins and where he said he was the suffering servant.
I showed where the verses that christians cite to support their doctrines – your response is to repeat the same questions, declare that I have no victory even though I haven’t even spoken in those terms, and to proclaim your disbelief. LOL!!
I’m not entirely sure what it is you are trying to derive from this conversation – other than to show me how poorly you utilize your rational functions.
“You say that i am guilty of a black and white view on Jesus however I have done nothing but quote Jesus’ words in context (something you have repeatedly failed to do). The truth is that John 20 states both that Jesus had a God and that he gave the disciples the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
Really Patrice? The same question? LOL!!! Your false dichotomy on jesus is obvious and the only conclusion one can draw from your comments – you have poor reasoning ability and can’t see you errors.
Okay, okay, I’ll play it again, sam. Jesus made statements that clearly shows that he thought of himself as divine, and statements that clearly show that he was fully human – he made both statements. Okay? Does the fourth time of telling help?
“Perhaps you need to take it up with Jesus as your problem seems to be with him”
Now you are just embarrassing yourself – my view on jesus is clear. Yours is confused and the only reason I can see for why you are confused is that you have some kind of reasoning dysfunction. You view the complete absence of mention of basic christian doctrines from the quran as evidence that the quran had profound knowledge of it, you repeat the same questions that have been clearly answered and you place an unwarranted caveat of a dichotomy on jesus claims. That isn’t my fault dude – nor the bible’s.
“Finally you say that Jesus ‘paid the price’ what do you mean by this? ”
What about the words “jesus paid the price for justice to be administered” do you have trouble understanding patrice? The muslim god doesn’t care if sin goes unpunished – if someone murders your uncle, let’s say, your god can just blow it off and allow it to go unpunished – and justice has not been served. Hence the muslim god is imperfect in his justice and can’t be god. If your god just blows off the sin, then you and your uncle as victims have not received justice. Get it? Somehow, I don’t think you will LOL!!!!
“they think sin is a transaction. little do they know that sins aren’t passed around like money .”
Do we? Don’t muslims have an angel on each shoulder counting the good and bad deeds that they do in their life? Doesn’t a good deeds of erase a bad deed for muslims? What then is the price for murder? How many circumambulations around the kaaba must you perform to erase that?
“Do we? Don’t muslims have an angel on each shoulder counting the good and bad deeds that they do in their life? Doesn’t a good deeds of erase a bad deed for muslims? What then is the price for murder? How many circumambulations around the kaaba must you perform to erase that?”
christian theology teaches that all actions like rape, murder , homosexuality, blasphemy and others was punished on jesus.
1. who punished all these actions on jesus?
2. who poured all these actions on jesus?
3. so the father sees past, present and future rapes, does he pour all action of rape on jesus?
4. is jesus VICTIM and helpless god who receives rapes from all years?
since christians are born in sin and god gave them sinful nature and sinful heart, christian can wash himself by beating his /her sin on jezus . christian at the same time tells himself that divine consequences he need not fear.
D why do you believe that an innocent person dying for guilty people is justice? If someone killed my Uncle surely that person should face the consequences? and how many times do i have to say I’m not a Muslim besides i thought there was only one God are you not a monotheist?
“why do you believe that an innocent person dying for guilty people is justice? If someone killed my Uncle surely that person should face the consequences? and how many times do i have to say I’m not a Muslim besides i thought there was only one God are you not a monotheist?”
That is just a rambling mess of nonsense. I’m not sure where to begin.
Through the incarnation and crucifixion, god took the sins of the world upon himself – that is, he paid the price for your transgressions, all you have to do is repent. That is basic, basic christian belief – how can you be a skeptic when you don’t seem to understand that fundamental and simple concept of christian doctrine?
Paul is disagreeing with you – he is saying that the person who killed your uncle might not face justice when he goes before your god. If you think that is unjust then you agree with me that the muslim god is unjust by nature.
And you have become incoherent – what are you talking about with this monotheism nonsense. Christians are monotheists – haven’t you understood a single word I have written?
The Son voluntarily came and gave his life for sinners from all the nations. Like a courageous man who jumps in front of someone going to be shot and takes the bullet for them. That is love and courage and greatness and nobility.
Jesus came and took our sin and guilt and punishment for us voluntarily. why don’t you understand the word “voluntarily” and “love” ??
John 10:18
“No one takes My life from Me; I lay it down voluntarily on My own initiative; and have authority to lay it down and take it up again . . . “
“Through the incarnation and crucifixion, god took the sins of the world upon himself – that is, he paid the price for your transgressions, all you have to do is repent”
how does a god punishing himself imply that your action of sin you did yesterday has been punished when you weren’t punished ?
you are created with sin nature and sin heart, you can’t help sinning because of your nature and your god nailed his own head to the floor for your transgression?
“The Son voluntarily came and gave his life for sinners from all the nations. Like a courageous man who jumps in front of someone going to be shot and takes the bullet for them. That is love and courage and greatness and nobility.”
“love and courage” ?
what kind of a lie you spout from your mouth?
what is your worth without a bloody sacrificial ritual?
what happens if you don’t believe that your god gave himself life even though he has an immortal one?
which soldier says , ” if you don’t believe i will come back to life after 3 days i will fry you in hell like beacon” ?
since a god designed himself to “bear” his own self abuse, then their is nothing courages in this self abusing act because a god made everyone “born in sin”
except himself to appease himself
“Through the incarnation and crucifixion, god took the sins of the world upon himself – that is, he paid the price for your transgressions, all you have to do is repent. ”
so your god self abused himself by raping himself with ALL sinful actions in ALL years, yet he knows @ the same time that he could PUNISH severely in the depths of hell?
you really do worship a self abusing nut case, don’t you?
why do you “repent” when
your repentance is part of a transgressed heart which will produce sin stained repentance?
you have made your god punisher of himself and helpless being, yet @ same time he can punish at will anyone he pleases to punish.
you have made your god a victim of his own problem
Adnan has a good spirit and personality and he and Dr. White demonstrate we can debate and respect one another and be friends, even though we disagree. Some of the folks here should learn from Adnan and Shabir and Abdullah Kunde, and not use dirty language (like Robert2016 who is a nut) and others who have a bad method and ad hominem attacks.
Yes I agree, the worst offenders are ‘nuts’ like Sam Shamoun who is abusive and uses dirty language all the time. And he is a Spirit filled Christian! But I know you have condemned his behaviour before.
So Jesus dies and pays for my transgressions? But why does he need to do this at all why can’t God just forgive if he wants to? It didn’t stop him in the Tanakh in fact people would often offer atonement for their sins and were forgiven according to that system. Whats changed?
Secondly you say that in Islam God doesn’t punish evil doers, well neither does yours! Jesus does it instead so the guilty can just walk free and do as they please while the victims receive nothing and if they are non-Christians they go to Hell without a chance to repent. I hope my Uncle is a Christian….or else 😉
Ken that is indeed very courageous but perhaps the wrong metaphor. You say Jesus died for our sins voluntarily but why does he need to do it at all and why can’t God just forgive as he has always done?
Furthermore there is nothing loving nor just in an innocent person having to take the punishment of the guilty.
Without a perfect ransom and perfect mediator, a person is alone as a rebellious sinner to face a holy God, and that person has the wrath of God abiding on them (John 3:18; 3:36; Ephesians 2:1-3; Revelation 14:10) God’s wrath is a just and holy wrath. Jesus the Son took the wrath voluntarily in the unity of purpose of the Trinity.
You have to ask yourself why God set up the sacrificial system in the OT in the first place, and why the Passover (the blood of the lamb had to be put on the door posts to avert the wrath/death angel of judgment). (God killed animals to forgive Adam and Eve’s sin and make them skins to cover their shame – Genesis 3; Exodus 12, Leviticus chapters 1-7, 16-17; 2 Chronicles 3:1 (temple built on Mt. Moriah – looks back to Genesis 22 and Abraham and even the Qur’an says, “we have ransomed him with a mighty sacrifice”. (Surah 37:107), 1 Kings 8, and Daniel 9:24-27 and Isaiah 53 shows prophesies of Messiah to come to pay for sins.
You have to ask yourself, Why did God even ask Abraham to sacrifice his son? (Genesis 22; Qur’an 37:107 – context)
Yes, it was a trial and test (Genesis 22:1), but why?
Why something that is morally wrong? (human sacrifice is sin and morally wrong)
Why would God ask him to do what is wrong?
Even the Qur’an and Islam agrees that child sacrifice is wrong, so why would God even ask this . . . ?
“You have to ask yourself why God set up the sacrificial system in the OT in the first place”,
because the jews borrowed the blood atonement idea from their pagan neighbours. i never see you talking about how pagan human sacrificial rituals foreshadowed your gods “ultimate” sacrifice.
” and why the Passover (the blood of the lamb had to be put on the door posts to avert the wrath/death angel of judgment).”
have you studied ancient gods obsession with blood, animal and human sacrifice? is it surprising that the hebrews developed obsession for it?
it was not the blood which avoided wrath it was the willingness to paint with blood/obedience.
completely different. the wrath is avoided because the commandment was obeyed. emphasis is not on blood but obedience.
god saw the PAINTING/deed and navigated away
”
(God killed animals to forgive Adam and Eve’s sin and make them skins to cover their shame –”
was he powerless to poof them into existence?
”
Genesis 3; Exodus 12, Leviticus chapters 1-7, 16-17; 2 Chronicles 3:1 (temple built on Mt. Moriah – looks back to Genesis 22 and Abraham and even the Qur’an says, “we have ransomed him with a mighty sacrifice”. (Surah 37:107), 1 Kings 8, and Daniel 9:24-27 and Isaiah 53 shows prophesies of Messiah to come to pay for sins.”
are you seriously telling me that your god got inspiration to kill himself physically by looking at animal sacrifices???
sorry, but how is it “courageous” for a god to pour is own wrath on himself for rape, homosexuality, murder and a bunch load of other crimes when he is in control of all sins from all years, bunches them up and then punishes himself ?
self abuse is to shift attention
so a god designs himself to bear his own wrath and temporarily punish himself because he needs to defuse the anger building up in him
jesus and father are only punishing each other to bring ease within the trinity
“But it IS contrary to justice that God should require the torturing to death of an innocent human being to atone for guilty persons sin.”
That isn’t christian doctrine – the doctrine says that god took the sins of the world upon himself through the incarnation, not that he chose a random human being to sacrifice. ”
1. did jesus do the sinful act? yes or no
2. did the criminal do the sinful act and is criminal?
3. did the criminal do sinful act on jesus and then jesus punished himself for the act the criminal did on him?
4. if jesus did not do the sinful act and is “innocent” then is it SUFFERING and pain which is required from divine being?
5. if jesus is “innocent” then what is required in divine justice that “innocent” must suffer? so it is SUFFERING which is required to appease kind, loving and fair god?
6. why does a christian have to imagine suffering of a self abusing god when innocent children are dying of hunger this minute?
7. why not repent through the suffering of a new born baby which knows no sin?
8. did god have the power to escape or save himself from the temple like sacrifices in the jewish torah?
if not , then the mandate to sacrifice becomes a law which is something god CANNOT choose to avoid which mean he was bound to human sacrificial ritual.
9. how is your god powerful when he can’t forgive without a RITUAL?
Ken your answer does not explain why God needs to punish Jesus in order to achieve this forgiveness. Why can forgiveness only be achieved through some kind of tribute? seems a lot like the pagan Gods to me. I would argue you are making light of Gods holiness and justice by allowing the guilty to be saved while the innocent are meant to suffer.
“Because God is also Just and holy and must punish sin. the cross is God’s expression of both love for sinners and justice against sin.”
the cross is gods expression on how he quit and punished himself .
if god is “holy” why can unholy like you who is born in sin, stand up and talk to god? you are still polluted in sin and you still try to fight of satanic temptations .
your god nailing himself fixed up his anger management , but it hasn’t cured the problem god created which is “born in sin”
“Without a perfect ransom and perfect mediator, a person is alone as a rebellious sinner to face a holy God, and that person has the wrath of God abiding on them (John 3:18; 3:36; Ephesians 2:1-3; Revelation 14:10) God’s wrath is a just and holy wrath. Jesus the Son took the wrath voluntarily in the unity of purpose of the Trinity. ”
God has never required a ransom for anyone or anything. If God wishes to forgive he just does as Paul said look to the Parable of the Prodigal Son or to the parable of the rich man and the tax collector for proof of this. No sacrifice needed.
The Prodical Son and the Parable of the Rich man and tax collector are all in the context of Judaism and the temple is still standing at the time. The parable of the rich man and the tax-collector whole context is going to the temple, they pray AFTER they sacrifice; and the tax-collector says, “be propitious to me, the sinner”. It is a deep word, more than just “have mercy on me”.
“But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be propitious to me, the sinner!’
Context – those who trust in themselves and think they are righteous (if you think your repentance is sincere and you are good; you are wrong.)
Luke 18:9-10
And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt:
“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
God has never required a ransom for anyone or anything.
The whole OT is about God’s requirement for sacrifice and ransom, and even the Qur’an mentions this, “we have ransomed him with a mighty sacrifice” (Surah 37:107) because it could not avoid the reality of the meaning of the necessity of sacrifice for sin, by using Genesis 22.
“In the day you eat of it, you shall surely die” (Genesis 2:16-17; chapter 3)
the soul that sins, it shall die. (be punished) (Ezekiel 18)
The wages of sin is death. Romans 3:23
Jesus came and took the punishment and death for sinners from all the nations. (Revelation 5:9)
“Your view makes light of God’s holiness, justice, and wrath against sin.”
ken since you are a born in sin sinner and you are GUARANTEED to sin today and tomorrow, are you not making light of god’s holiness when u do sin?
if you go around preaching about how sin makes your god helpless, then aren’t you just talking about sin just to be seen by men?
ken , how does believing that your god opened his flesh for your sin and gave himself recovery make you in your gods presence when you are GUARANTEED to sin?
are you not boasting about sin and at the same time telling yourself that you are free from any divine punishment?
and No, because God also changes us and gives us new desires and ability for deeper levels of repentance, holiness, goodness.”
ken, how did opening of flesh and bathing yourself in human blood change you when you are guaranteed to sin and still remain in your polluted christian condition?
ken, how can you go into “deeper levels of repentance, holiness, goodness” when u have a sinful born in sin nature which will always be a stumbling block for your repentance, holiness, goodness?
ken, your hearth wishes nothing but evil and your theology says your gods “grace” gave you an evil heart, you were born with it.
ken, if god was a loving call he would allow you to have a direct “phone call” conversation with him. but your god tolerates your because only a violent ritual is the closest thing to his heart. your god has no forgiveness in him but a need for ritualistic flesh opening.
your god needs to get his blood
needs to get his vengeance
needs to get his flesh opening
needs to get his suffering
only so he can use the ritual between you and himself
ken, your god don’t love you. he only tolerate you because of ritual. he only want relationship with you through opening of flesh and blood.
ken, i have seen jesus taken out of people. i have seen them baptised and freed from jesus. ken, i can get you help .
“Your prayer and worship rituals come from the pagans. No jewish prophet would have accepted that – and god does not accept it.
Your hadith are man-made and your prayer and worship rituals fill in the blanks by borrowing from the pagans because your god’s word was too unclear and largely irrelevant to your practices.
You have all but admitted this. The torah spells out worship and the law down to the minutest detail – the quran is so vague that islam had to plagiarize pagan rituals to give it any meaning. LOL!!”
LOL!!! Fido’s assumptions and ignorance keep reaching new heights! You still haven’t looked into the works of Harald Motzki or Fuat Sezgin, huh? What are you of, Fido? Is your bark worse than your bite? LOL!!!
What is more pagan than believing in a god that needs blood atonement to forgive sins? You might as well worship Zeus or Chemosh! LOL!!!
Isn’t it surprising that the first people to worship your man-god were 3 pagan astrologers (i.e. the Magi)? No Jewish prophet would have accepted that, since Isaiah condemns astrology as a heresy! LOL!!!
Blogging Theology 
Exactly, it’s a slippery slope. In that sense, Hindu theology makes more sense because their god is not limited by a specific “number”.
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Hindu gods are cartoons drawn by man; rank idolatry and paganism.
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pots and kettles dear boy
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Yes, just like the cartoons drawn by Christians showing a 4-eyed god, or the cartoons showing an old man with a beard; rank idolatry and paganism.
Hindu theology actually makes more sense than Christian theology, since in the former, their god is not limited to just “three” persons. The Hindu god has numerous incarnations and personages.
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Yes, those Roman Catholics who drew those hideous things were violating the 2nd commandment.
I am a Protestant, so Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox traditions of man and additions to the Scripture and corruptions and heretical and un-Biblical teachings are clearly wrong; and so you don’t have a point against Biblical Christianity .
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Yet as a Protestant, you still believe that God exists as 3 “persons”. So, we’re back to the point of this thread. Your god is limited to 3 persons whereas the Hindu god has no such limitations. Hence, it seems that Hindu theology makes a little more sense (but not much!) than Christian theology.
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And by the way, your Bible describes “God” as having “feet like bronze” and eyes “like blazing fire”. Is that not rank idolatry and paganism?
And before you try to change subjects and talk about the Quran, let me shut you down right now by saying that when the Quran refers to Allah’s “Hands” or other characteristics, it is not to be taken literally.
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“Why stop at 3?”
Because father, son, holy spirit. The quran was ignorant of this so I understand why you guys don’t get it.
Fail
“And by the way, your Bible describes “God” as having “feet like bronze” and eyes “like blazing fire”. Is that not rank idolatry and paganism?”
No, literary tools to describe a being beyond description. Idolatry is kissing meteorites that look like labia, and circling a man-made cube-shaped tent.
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That aside, though, you have no idea who or what you worship.The belief that “jibril” revealed the quran is only a tradition that comes from a hadith in which khadija claims to know that the being that confronted mohammed was the archangel. The being itself did not say it was jibril.
You worship some creature that sent a being that claimed to have words from god, but it didn’t identify itself as god’s archangel, and a mere human being assigned godliness to it.
Classic idolatry.
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Why is the mere kissing of the black stone an act of idolatory given that Muslims don’t believe the stone embodies divine properties at all? Also, why is the circumbulation of the Kaabah an act of idolatory rather than a mere ritual akin ‘wuduh’ or the movements involved in performing ‘salat’?
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Fido,
When will you pull your head out of your rear end? LOL!!
“Because father, son, holy spirit. The quran was ignorant of this so I understand why you guys don’t get it.”
LOL, that doesn’t answer the question! Why stop at three? Why is your god so limited? In contrast, the Hindu god was not limited by a specific number!
Your trinity nonsense took centuries to develop. Your predecessors were still holding “councils” even after Islam! I mentioned the Council of Constantinople in 680 previously. There were so many different beliefs that the church had to clarify the “official” stance! LOL!!!
“No, literary tools to describe a being beyond description. Idolatry is kissing meteorites that look like labia, and circling a man-made cube-shaped tent.”
LOL!! So, the following was merely “literary tools”?
“These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze” (Revelation 2:18)
“Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up 10 and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of lapis lazuli, as bright blue as the sky” (Exodus 24:9-10).
Your god had feet and eyes? How many eyes? LOL!!!
And by the way, Fido, Muslims don’t worship the Black Stone or the Kaaba. Idolatry refers to worshiping an object (or in your case, a god-man). Why would kissing be idolatry? Christian logic strikes again!
Bad dog! No treat for you!
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Kmak
That is an interesting comment. These are irrelevant rituals that have no meaning? Then what purpose do they serve and why do you do them?
If they are required or commanded by your god, then doing them is an act of worship which would be strange since your god demands absolute worship only to him. If your god has not required you to do these things, then you are revering inanimate objects or at the very least assigning sacredness to material things or behaviours. That is idolatry.
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Failure
“that doesn’t answer the question!”
Yes it does – you just don’t realize it. LOL!!!
“So, the following was merely “literary tools”?”
Sure, god in his full glory is beyond description so when human minds in their fallen state behold even a smidge of his glory they can only relate what they see using literary language – literary in the sense of transcendent poetic language to describe in limited human language that which is beyond our comprehension.
No idolatry there.
Where idolatry does exist, however, is in elevating cube shaped tents and stones to sacredness and worshiping a god who has 99 pesonalities and two right hands (yes we know about that!) LOL!!!
Which of your god’s personalities told you to kiss the black stone and was it the same personality that told you to circle a tent? Was there consensus? A vote?
LOL!!!
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What about the disciples? They are as “one” as farther and son are “one”. It’s convenient to neglect that fact so I understand why you guys don’t want to get it.
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“Idolatry is kissing meteorites that look like labia, and circling a man-made cube-shaped tent.”
What a curious statement! D, I assume you realize that if I kiss my parents / wife / children, I am not worshiping them and committing idolatry? Likewise, since when was circumambulation an act of idolatry? I am sure I do not take the roundabout outside my house as the Almighty!
You seem to have a rather healthy imagination if you see a likeness between the Ḥajar al-Aswad and labia…
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LOL!! Yes, Fido seems to have some sexual problems. He should probably see a psychiatrist. Do they have dog psychiatrists? LOL!!
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So what is the point an purpose of circling the kaaba if it is only as significant as taking a roundabout? Are you not engaging in the act of worship when you circle the kaaba? And since it is not your god, then aren’t you worshiping an object?
Do you go around to random places and walk around them as art of your worship? Do you kiss random stones are part of your pilgrimages? If not, then the kaaba and black stone are elevated or sacred.
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Since hajj is one of the key requirements a healthy muslim must fulfill, I think there is a fair discussion to be had as to whether it constitutes ‘worship’.
Perhaps a Muslim or two could answer: is salat an act of worship in Islamic teaching?
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Fido barked…I mean, said:
“That aside, though, you have no idea who or what you worship.The belief that “jibril” revealed the quran is only a tradition that comes from a hadith in which khadija claims to know that the being that confronted mohammed was the archangel. The being itself did not say it was jibril.
You worship some creature that sent a being that claimed to have words from god, but it didn’t identify itself as god’s archangel, and a mere human being assigned godliness to it.
Classic idolatry.”
LOL!! Gibril (as) identified himself on numerous occasions!
Remind me again, which “angel” killed 185,000 Assyrians? Which “angel” wrestled with Jacob? And did Gabriel actually identify himself to Daniel? Christian hypocrisy strikes again!
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Fail
“Gibril (as) identified himself on numerous occasions!…..And did Gabriel actually identify himself to Daniel?”
Hmm….None of the prophets of the old testament had any doubts that they were in the presence of god or his servants. Your prophet is unique in that – he was terrified as though he had seen a demon.
The bible’s prophets were comforted by the beings that visited them or were shaken by the glory of god. None reacted like your prophet.
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Fido barked:
“So what is the point an purpose of circling the kaaba if it is only as significant as taking a roundabout? Are you not engaging in the act of worship when you circle the kaaba? And since it is not your god, then aren’t you worshiping an object?
Do you go around to random places and walk around them as art of your worship? Do you kiss random stones are part of your pilgrimages? If not, then the kaaba and black stone are elevated or sacred.”
LOL!! The Kaaba is a house of worship, like a mosque, church or synagogue. Simply going around it is not an act of worship. If Muslims prayed to the Kaaba, then that would be an act of worship. See the difference?
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Fido barked:
“Hmm….None of the prophets of the old testament had any doubts that they were in the presence of god or his servants. Your prophet is unique in that – he was terrified as though he had seen a demon.:
LOL!! What about Jacob? He had no idea who he was wrestling and despite Jacob’s pleas, the “man” never revealed his name! Christian hypocrisy strikes again!
Also, the “man” who came to Daniel never actually identified himself either. We are told that Daniel somehow knew who he was. Given that Gabriel is not even mentioned in the Tanakh outside of the book of Daniel, one wonders where he was all that time!
“The bible’s prophets were comforted by the beings that visited them or were shaken by the glory of god. None reacted like your prophet.”
LOL!! Jacob was injured by the angel he wrestled with!
“The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel,[h] and he was limping because of his hip. 32 Therefore to this day the Israelites do not eat the tendon attached to the socket of the hip, because the socket of Jacob’s hip was touched near the tendon” (Genesis 32:31).
Epic fail, Fido! Bad dog!
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Fail
“Jacob was injured by the angel he wrestled with!”
LOL!! You don’t read too good, try again my dense friend. Jacob knew he had seen god that’s why he said “I have seen god face to face and yet my life has been delivered”. LOL!!!
He didn’t run away and cower not knowing what he had experienced and he certainly did not need his wife to tell him he had seen god. He praised the lord and asked for blessing!
You fail on two counts here, El Stupido, one, jacob knew exactly who had seen, two this passage does away with all your silly islamic pretenses about the “transcendence” of your 99 piece god – the god of the bible can enter creation and allow himself to be touched and seen without causing death to humans and without losing his deity.
LOL!! Darkness cannot conceal the light of truth!
“Also, the “man” who came to Daniel never actually identified himself either. We are told that Daniel somehow knew who he was. ”
Sad, sad Fail.
Your prophet did not know who this being that confronted him was – his wife told him and so he submitted. LOL!!!
Your god needs a human to tell your prophet when he has seen an angel, even though she wasn’t there to witness it herself. God does not work like that in the bible – if your prophet had only known what was in the bible he would have known this. There is no mistaking or confusion when god comes knocking. LOL!!!
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Brilliant point Paul,
Yes or why not 4 or 17 or 934548395843 or any other number.
By saying that God just happens to be like that introduces a brute fact within God.
But God is the antithesis of the brute fact.
Either this universe and existence is a brute fact or it is because of God.
It makes not sense to be a brute fact for a brute fact by definition opposes the principle of sufficient reason…that everything has a sufficient reason for why it is so.
Also the fine tuning of the universe from its very beginning makes the probability too small for even the wildest of imagination.
Thus God exists but then He is not due to brute fact and there are no brute facts within Him. It would a contradiction in terms. Not a mystery, a contradiction in terms.
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This post seems a little semantic and pointless. If the question can be asked, why stop at three, then surely the question could be broadened, why stop at one?
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Paulus stop pretending. You are such a fake
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Fido barked:
“Yes it does – you just don’t realize it. LOL!!!”
No, it doesn’t – you just want to believe it does. LOL!!!
Why does your god stop at three? Is he limited?
“Sure, god in his full glory is beyond description so when human minds in their fallen state behold even a smidge of his glory they can only relate what they see using literary language – literary in the sense of transcendent poetic language to describe in limited human language that which is beyond our comprehension.”
LOL, so your god could not “inspire” human minds to describe his “full glory” without resorting to idolatry? OK, got it! Thanks! LOL!!!
The Bible says that people actually “saw” God and what they saw was that he has feet and eyes. How many eyes does he have? 😉
“No idolatry there.
Where idolatry does exist, however, is in elevating cube shaped tents and stones to sacredness and worshiping a god who has 99 pesonalities and two right hands (yes we know about that!) LOL!!!
Which of your god’s personalities told you to kiss the black stone and was it the same personality that told you to circle a tent? Was there consensus? A vote?
LOL!!!”
LOL!!! It seems that, in your desperation, you find the need to redefine what “idolatry” is! Sorry, not going to work, Fido! You still haven’t explained how kissing an object is “idolatry”. Bad dog!
We don’t need a “consensus”, like your predecessors who had to vote on which books to include in their canon, LOL!!
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Paulus, you said:
“Since hajj is one of the key requirements a healthy muslim must fulfill, I think there is a fair discussion to be had as to whether it constitutes ‘worship’.
Perhaps a Muslim or two could answer: is salat an act of worship in Islamic teaching?”
Both the Hajj and Salat are acts of worship. We are obeying our Lord, Allah (Glorified and Exalted be He) and we pray to Him and ask for His forgiveness. What we are NOT doing, as D (whom I call Fido) has suggested, is worshiping the Kaaba or the Black Stone.
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Fido barked:
“LOL!! You don’t read too good, try again my dense friend. Jacob knew he had seen god that’s why he said “I have seen god face to face and yet my life has been delivered”. LOL!!!
He didn’t run away and cower not knowing what he had experienced and he certainly did not need his wife to tell him he had seen god. He praised the lord and asked for blessing!”
LOL!!! So, Jacob saw your god, wrestled with him and beat him? It seems your god isn’t all that powerful! LOL!!
Why didn’t your god identify himself? What if Jacob was wrong?
You are also ignorant of the fact that most Jews and many Christians actually believe that Jacob wrestled with an angel, not God. Heretic!
“You fail on two counts here, El Stupido, one, jacob knew exactly who had seen, two this passage does away with all your silly islamic pretenses about the “transcendence” of your 99 piece god – the god of the bible can enter creation and allow himself to be touched and seen without causing death to humans and without losing his deity.”
LOL!! Yes, and your god can also be beaten by a human being and plead with him to let him go! He didn’t even know Jacob’s name!
“So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.”
But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”
27 The man asked him, “What is your name?”
“Jacob,” he answered.
28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel,[f] because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.””
LOL!!! Some god!
“LOL!! Darkness cannot conceal the light of truth!”
LOL, yes the “light of truth” that your god could not beat a shepherd nor even knew his name!
“Sad, sad Fail.
Your prophet did not know who this being that confronted him was – his wife told him and so he submitted. LOL!!!”
LOL, deflecting again? Did the angel identify himself to Daniel? Yes or no? Speak boy, speak!
As I already said, Gabriel identified himself on numerous occasions. Daniel had to guess the identity of the angel. And where was Gabriel all this time? He is not even mentioned even once elsewhere in the Tanakh!
“Your god needs a human to tell your prophet when he has seen an angel, even though she wasn’t there to witness it herself. God does not work like that in the bible – if your prophet had only known what was in the bible he would have known this. There is no mistaking or confusion when god comes knocking. LOL!!!”
LOL!! Yes, the way your god works is to take human form, get beaten in a bout of wrestling, plead with a human to let him go and then ask him what his name is. HA! Some god! LOL!!
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Thanks.
So is it possible for one to ‘do’ hajj but not participate in circling the Kaaba or kissing the black stone?
Or is hajj only complete once a Muslim does these things (among others)?
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Secondary question: so hajj is worship but the individual components that comprise of doing hajj are not?
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And the big point for the Sola Scrptura Trinitarians: There is no limitation of 3 in the Bible. It looks like church tradition is in play again.
Interestingly enough, there’s no disctinction between being and person either in the Bible. Again church tradition is at play.
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Paulus, you asked:
“So is it possible for one to ‘do’ hajj but not participate in circling the Kaaba or kissing the black stone?
Or is hajj only complete once a Muslim does these things (among others)?”
Circling the Kaaba is an essential part of the Hajj. The Hajj is a set of rituals which commemorate the story of Abraham, Ishmael and Hagar (pbut). However, kissing the Black Stone is not required. One is allowed to simply point to it as well.
“Secondary question: so hajj is worship but the individual components that comprise of doing hajj are not?”
The act of going on the pilgrimage is an act of worship because you are obeying God. The rituals are an act of worship in the same sense. Just like when you pray, you are worshiping God. You are not worshiping the ground (since you would be prostrating on it).
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Can you understand how one might see paganism in kissing a stone as an act of worship?
out of curiosity, do you believe Abraham built the Kaaba as well?
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Matthew 28:19 limits the 3 persons to 3. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
2 Corinthians 13:14 limits the 3 persons to 3. “the Love of God (the Father), the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Son), and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit”
Matthew 3:13-17 – there is a limitation of 3 persons. The voice from heaven (The Father), Jesus getting baptized (The Son) and the Holy Spirit coming down in the form of a dove.
So, it is easy.
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Lol, yes we know that already. The question is why? You used the right word: limit. Why is God limited to 3 persons? As I said, the trinitarian god makes less sense than the Hindu god, since the former is limited while the latter is not.
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That is just the way God always was and is into eternity past, present, and future. To Him who was and is and is to come, be glory forever. God just always was a Trinity; uncreated, invisible, sovereign, pure, holy, just, and pure love. God is love ( 1 John 4:8). Lover (Father), Beloved (Son), and love (Holy Spirit), in eternity past in loving relationship, holy, pure, good.
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Paulus, you said:
“Can you understand how one might see paganism in kissing a stone as an act of worship?”
No, I don’t. Why is kissing associated with “paganism”? Muslims don’t pray to the stone or believe that it has any powers. So, how can it be associated with “paganism”?
“out of curiosity, do you believe Abraham built the Kaaba as well?”
Yes, the Quran states that Abraham (re)built the Kaaba with Ishmael (pbut). It was originally built by Adam (pbuh), and later by Abraham and Ishmael.
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I think kissing an inanimate object as a form of worship would be considered paganism by most accounts. But my opinion doesn’t account for much.
Anyway, good chatting.
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That’s why there is christian unitarian, but there is no muslim trinitarian.
Trinitarianism is simply IDOLATRY, shirk, avodah zarah.. wrong!
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Paulus
You said;
I think kissing an inanimate object as a form of worship would be considered paganism by most accounts. But my opinion doesn’t account for much.
Anyway, good chatting.
I say;
The kissing is not compulsory to complete your Hajj ritual. The kissing is a Sunnah. Many Muslims do not have the chance to kiss the stone and the Hajj is complete. If you visit Jerusalem at the western wall, you will see Jews kissing the wall.
You must know the Jews are not worshiping the wall and Muslims are not worshiping the stone the kiss but think the stone is from God and it is God’s creation.
Muslim never asks the stone to help them or mention the stone in prayers. So the stone is irrelevant when it comes to worship.
The Quran say “do not say 3” to limit God as 3 persons. It is a perfect correction to the Trinitarians who limit God to 3 Persons.
Thanks.
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Good reply!
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Trinitarianism cannot be idolatry or shirk, since there is no idol and there is only One God in the doctrine. Trinitas Unitas; God is One. Within the one God, the three persons are still ONE God, so no idolatry and no shirk.
I will not share My glory with another. Isaiah 42:8
“restore the glory to Me I had with you in eternity past before the World was created. John 17:5
Means that the sharing of glory was not shirk, since they are one God, not two gods and not three gods.
There is only one God in the Trinity.
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Trinitarianism is idolatry because Christians worship a man alongside God. You cannot deny you worship Jesus who is 100% man.
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Paul
“Trinitarianism is idolatry because Christians worship a man alongside God. You cannot deny you worship Jesus who is 100% man.”
Christians worship god incarnate – so it’s not idolatry. It really is not hard you guys.
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Using this logic, then Hindu theology is also not idolatry. True, they have idols but they also believe that their god has many incarnations…Shiva, Vishnu, Krishna etc. Therefore, just from a theological point of view, Hinduism would not be counted as “idolatrous”. Of course, your explanation is pure nonsense since you worship a god-man, just like Hindus do. They are one and the same thing: idolatry.
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KT://There is only one God in the Trinity.//
Really? let’s do the tally… God is YHWH and Jesus and holyghost… three gods!
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He is also 100 % God, the Word from all eternity (John 1:1-5, 14), the Son (John 17:5) who became human. Philippians 2:5-8. And was still God by nature – both God and man.
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Your creeds say he is 100% man as well. Do you worship him as man too Ken?
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The human nature is an added nature in the incarnation. We are worshiping Him as one unified divine person. the worship is directed as His being the eternal Word, the eternal Son, God who voluntarily took on an additional nature, and who out of love died for our sins. Amazing Love!
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With the name of Allah
KT://The human nature is an added nature in the incarnation.//
Not only Trinity believe in three gods person.. now.. it also has two nature.
Wow.
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No, the human nature is NOT added to the Trinity, but only to the Son, the Son has two natures. God the Trinity has only one nature/substance. You really should read a good book on the theology of the Trinity.
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What kind of belief is that ? god is Trinity, Jesus is god, god trinity has one nature yet god Jesus has additional human nature added. You worship 4 gods trinity, yhwh, jesus, ghost), three with one nature while god jesus got extra nature.
Wow.
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Nope; one God in three persons. Christians get the right to define their own theology; you don’t have that right.
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With the name of Allah
You said “God the trinity” in addition to god the Yhwh, god Jesus, god the ghost. That makes four gods Altogether .
We have every right to criticise this false notion about the one true God.
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Matthew 2:1-12 – the Magi came to worship Him. They bowed down and worshipped Him.
Matthew 14:33 – they worshipped Him.
John 20:28 – Thomas said To Him: “My Lord and My God”
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One wonders how Mary and Joseph would have felt seeing these 3 strangers “worshiping” their son! As monotheistic Jews, they would have been horrified!
Also, the Magi were astrologers. Remind me again. What does the Bible say about astrology? 😉
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They were (past tense) astrologers and astronomers and wise in other sciences, but they repented of their false religion, probably Zoroastrianism, and turned to the true God of the Bible. “monotheistic Jews” became Trinitarians in the New Testament – Matthew 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14, etc.
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Trinitarianism is Monotheism, anyway. There is no conflict with “Monotheistic Jews”, since all the first Christians were Jews or 99 % of them, and they believed in the Deity of Christ and the Trinity.
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“Christians worship god incarnate – so it’s not idolatry. It really is not hard you guys.”
Where did Jesus say to worship him? Jesus worshipped God alone who was seperate from himself:
And the devil said to him, “To you I will give their glory and all this authority; for it has been given over to me, and I give it to anyone I please. If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours.” Jesus answered him, “It is written,
‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve only him.’” – Luke 4:6-8
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Patrice
And? That’s a denial of his own deity?
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It’s one of many. Why would Jesus say to worship God alone and not reference himself if he is God? God in the Tanakh was hardly shy about calling people to worship him alone. The passage i mentioned shows Jesus distinguishing between himself and God.
Another example could be:
Jesus said to her, “Do not hold on to me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” – John 20:17
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Patrice
Jesus’ mission was not to incranate in his full glory. This is why the quranic objection of “where did jesus say to worship him?” is so absurd and ignorant.
If the quran understood the christian doctrines of incarnation, atonement, forgiveness of sin, it would not have asked such silly question. Jesus was the suffering servant, god through incarnation, not god in his full glory. He did not come to demand worship, but to atone for sin.
It’s moot to ask why he didn’t demand worship since it misses the point of christian belief about jesus and shows an immense quranic ignorance of doctrines it claims to be correcting.
“The passage i mentioned shows Jesus distinguishing between himself and God.
Another example could be:
jesus said to her, “Do not hold on to me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” – John 20:17”
I agree that it distinguishes between jesus and god, but the only distinction being made is between jesus human and divine natures, not his deity.
Your really need to get over this islamic obsession with the silly argument that jesus never demanded worship – he did not incarnate to demand worship so it is a completely irrelevant point.
Hope that helps.
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Good points by Patrice!
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Jesus’ mission was centered on the coming Kingdom of God and to warn his fellow Jews to obey Torah and reject the man made traditions that had since taken precedence. Jesus was an Apocalyptic Prophet as well as claiming to be the Messiah of Israel.
It was not until later when there people began to identify Jesus as having a universal message. Mainly due to the Jewish peoples’ rejection of him as Messiah. See for reference Pauls’ statement about going to the Gentiles after failing to convert the Jews.
With respect to your statement that Jesus was only distinguishing between himself his human and divine nature. My simple response is where does Jesus say that in the passage? There is no reference to him having a dual nature but only one nature.
Human nature. It seems you are inserting your own Christian bias in order to make the text conform when on the surface it does no such thing. So I ask again according to Jesus where does he say to worship him as God?
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Patrice
“Jesus’ mission was centered on the coming Kingdom of God and to warn his fellow Jews to obey Torah and reject the man made traditions that had since taken precedence. Jesus was an Apocalyptic Prophet as well as claiming to be the Messiah of Israel.”
The quran says nothing like that – anywhere. But you are correct in an unexpected way. Jesus did indeed teach that jewish religious leaders (not “the jews”) had perverted the spirit of god’s law and teaching and were imposing a kind of “islam” on the people.
This faith was similar to islam – faith in man-made traditions over the spirit of the law and god’s word, a works based system of reward and punishment which reduced god to a mere supernatural accountant of your sins, and the self-aggrandizement of clerics.
Islam is similar – much of the practice of the faith is based on tradition and not on the word of god. Circling the kaaba 7 times, praying 5 times a day, wudu, the salat rituals, none of these are explicitly taught in the quran but come from the hadith which are man-made traditions. Nowhere in the quran does god state that he has 99 attributes, nowhere does he say that you have to say the shahada, and nowhere does he say that he cannot enter creation. These are all man-made traditions established after the fact.
Either way, the quran reveals nothing worthwhile about jesus’ life and ministry that we should take seriously.
“It was not until later when there people began to identify Jesus as having a universal message.”
That’s because he had a universal message regardless of the opinions of men.
“With respect to your statement that Jesus was only distinguishing between himself his human and divine nature. My simple response is where does Jesus say that in the passage? ”
He makes that clear elsewhere in scripture – I think you know that. Oh, and in verse 22 he imparts the holy spirit – of god – to the disciples. A mere human being…with one nature? Human nature?
And he said this somewhere….”For when you see me, you are seeing the one who sent me. I have come as a light to shine in this dark world, so that all who put their trust in me will no longer remain in the dark.”
And this…”If you had really known me, you would know who my Father is. From now on, you do know him and have seen him!”
And….I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins”
And….”The Father and I are one.”
There are plenty more places where jesus states clearly that he is the divine son.
“So I ask again according to Jesus where does he say to worship him as God?”
LOL!! See above.
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Patrice
God Bless you. Christians will not accept the truth the Quran is teaching them. This blog is doing well and I pray it continues forever.
Ken Temple said;
Ken Temple
May 15, 2016 • 1:57 pm
The human nature is an added nature in the incarnation. We are worshiping Him as one unified divine person. the worship is directed as His being the eternal Word, the eternal Son, God who voluntarily took on an additional nature, and who out of love died for our sins. Amazing Love
I say;
Why separate the divine person from the human person and claim only the human person dies? Is the human part not a person? Every 100% man is a person. A 100% human who is not a person is not 100% human.
So, Christians, you separate the persons of one of your God(Jesus) where it suits you and combine them where it does not suit you. This is cheating by you and your God.
The Mormons can also say their God is One and Multi-personal like your God who expands when someone is born and shrinks when someone dies and change the persons in their God as they wish.
THE BIBLE SAID GOD DOES NOT CHANBE BUT THE SAME, SO TO CLAIM GOD ADDED A NATURE TO HIMSELF IS A BIG BLASPHEME
Human beings are human beings but not nature. Dr. David Kemball-Cook said, “humans die and not their nature”. Jesus as hybrid being has 2 beings/persons not 1 being. It is impossible. Nature is not a being/person but a Man or God is a Being.
Jesus claim he was sent by God and it means he did not voluntarily came to this earth to die for any ones sin.
Mathew 15:24
New International Version
He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
New Living Translation
Then Jesus said to the woman, “I was sent only to help God’s lost sheep–the people of Israel.”
English Standard Version
He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
Ken, AMAZING LOVE? You must read the Bible where Jesus said he will kill anyone who will not allow him to rule them. The is no amazing love in Christianity but wishful thinking when there is hell fire waiting for those who reject Christ.
Amazing love will put all of us in paradise.
Islam makes sense in that, God created us with freewill, choices and intellect which His other creations do not have. It means as a human you have the intellect, choice and will to take someone’s live, cheat, rape, rob etc.
Islamic God out of love sends his messengers, books, Angels etc. to GUIDE US into His right path. If you reject the path and continue to use your freewill and choice to do wrong you will be punished if you do not sincerely repent.
God said His mercy is more than His wrath, so human beings must repent and they always have chance for the love He has for them.
God clearly stated in the Quran that He will not punish anyone if He does not send a warner for them. This is the Amazing love. Where Christian God will punish Moses, Abraham and the rest because they do not believe Jesus is God.
Thanks.
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Intellect
“God Bless you. Christians will not accept the truth the Quran is teaching them. This blog is doing well and I pray it continues forever.”
If the quran has so much to teach, why is muslim religious practice derived largely from the hadith? These traditions have little historical credibility and are not the literal word of your god.
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Paulus, you said:
“I think kissing an inanimate object as a form of worship would be considered paganism by most accounts. But my opinion doesn’t account for much.
Anyway, good chatting.”
I disagree. You haven’t explained how kissing is a form of paganism.
Nice chatting with you too.
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Ken Temple
You said;
Trinitarianism cannot be idolatry or shirk, since there is no idol and there is only One God in the doctrine. Trinitas Unitas; God is One. Within the one God, the three persons are still ONE God, so no idolatry and no shirk.
I say;
Then tell Dr. James White, henceforth you and him must not call Mormon, Rastafarians, Hindus etc. as idol worshipers because they also believe in ONE God in multi-persons as you believe. Do not bully us also to say your multi-person God is superior than them.
Muslims, Jews, Unitarians Christians and most people in the world believe God is One without any persons. I cannot say my Muslim God is superior than Jewish or Unitarian Christians God because we all believe in the God of Abraham who is not Multi-personal.
Any Muslim will tell you his One God of Abraham is the same as the Unitarian Christian or Jew one God of Abraham.
Ken and Dr. White are in the line of idol worshipers by worshiping a multi-personal God.
Thanks.
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Not true, the Mormons and Hindus worship many gods. (they are not persons within the One God; especially in Mormonism, they are separate gods ruling over their own planets and every male will evolve into a god with many wives on their own planet and pro-create lots of inhabitants for each planet. That is why they believed in polygamy in the beginning.
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“They were (past tense) astrologers and astronomers and wise in other sciences, but they repented of their false religion, probably Zoroastrianism, and turned to the true God of the Bible. “monotheistic Jews” became Trinitarians in the New Testament – Matthew 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14,”
Um no. The only reason they even came to see Jesus was because they had seen a star. Hence, they were practicing astrologers:
“…Magi from the east came to Jerusalem 2 and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star</b? when it rose and have come to worship him.”"
They said they saw "his star"! Which star was that?
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Fido barked:
“If the quran has so much to teach, why is muslim religious practice derived largely from the hadith? These traditions have little historical credibility and are not the literal word of your god.”
LOL, you are not an expert on the Ahadith. Will you look up the studies of actual scholars, as I have suggested? Scholars like Harald Motzki and Fuat Sezgin have done extensive studies (a lot more than your pathetic Google searches 😉 ), and they have concluded that the Ahadith are historically reliable.
The Quran is a guide. The Ahadith provide the technical detail. For example, the Quran teaches the importance of prayer. The Ahadith teach us how to pray properly. Get it now? Good doggie!
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Fail
Your prayer and worship rituals come from the pagans. No jewish prophet would have accepted that – and god does not accept it.
Your hadith are man-made and your prayer and worship rituals fill in the blanks by borrowing from the pagans because your god’s word was too unclear and largely irrelevant to your practices.
You have all but admitted this. The torah spells out worship and the law down to the minutest detail – the quran is so vague that islam had to plagiarize pagan rituals to give it any meaning. LOL!!
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I have not mentioned the Qur’an so i’m at a loss as to why you brought it up since thus far I have only quoted the Gospels. Besides your opinions regarding the Prophet tradition and more specifically its role in Islam is not the topic of this discussion but rather the claims of Jesus being God.
Moving on to your claim that verse 22 of Johns Gospel says that Jesus imparts the Holy Spirit presumably by his own power and authority rather than Gods. Here is the text:
As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. – John 17:21b-22
Jesus hear is not declaring himself to be God however is affirming that God has sent him and is therefore sending his disciples to continue preaching his message wherein his finalises this by giving them the Holy Spirit. However nowhere does he indicate that he was the one doing this by his own power, if you read this statement in context with verse 17 it would be more sensible in my opinion to say that God has given him the Holy Spirit and the means to pass it on to others.
None of the other examples you provided have Jesus declaring his deity but only describing his relationship with God which i agree was very intimate as one would expect between God and one of his beloved Prophets. Truthfully I think you have failed to provide a cogent argument as to why anyone should believe Jesus claimed to be God instead you launched into a tirade against Islam and when you did provide some examples from the Bible they were hardly clear, if this is such an important doctrine to believe in for our salvation should Jesus have been more clear?
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Patrice
“I have not mentioned the Qur’an so i’m at a loss as to why you brought it up since thus far I have only quoted the Gospels. Besides your opinions regarding the Prophet tradition and more specifically its role in Islam is not the topic of this discussion but rather the claims of Jesus being God.”
You certainly have raised that point of argument elsewhere and raised it again – but if these objections are yours alone, then my criticism applies to you; you have to be ignorant of christian belief to consider such an argument. His ministry was one of atonement, and forgiveness of sin, via incarnation – a suffering servant, not god in his full glory.
“As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. – John 17:21b-22”
LOL!! Okay then.
He breathed out his spirit – it’s as clear as it can get and echoes god breathing his spirit into adam. The holy spirit only proceeds from the breath of god…….?
“However nowhere does he indicate that he was the one doing this by his own power, if you read this statement in context with verse 17 it would be more sensible in my opinion to say that God has given him the Holy Spirit and the means to pass it on to others.”
Uh-huh. It says nothing like that. You know what they say about opinions – your opinion is that the quran’s ignoring basic christian doctrines is strong evidence that it was familiar with them. Excuse my lack of faith in your opinions.
“None of the other examples you provided have Jesus declaring his deity but only describing his relationship with God which i agree was very intimate as one would expect between God and one of his beloved Prophets.”
LOL!! Okay.
“Truthfully I think you have failed to provide a cogent argument as to why anyone should believe Jesus claimed to be God instead you launched into a tirade against Islam and when you did provide some examples from the Bible they were hardly clear, if this is such an important doctrine to believe in for our salvation should Jesus have been more clear?”
Yeah. No.
I disagree – I provided examples that are as clear as clear can get. Why you find them unclear is between you and your brain.
And where did I launch into a tirade against islam? That alone makes me wonder if you tend to see things in texts that aren’t there.
Try again patrice, jesus’ claims to deity are clear and unequivocal – why you don’t understand that, I can’t know. LOL!!!
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God used the star to guide them from the east. God was speaking to them through His creation. They were not worshipping the star and nothing wrong with science of Astronomy. But they repented of paganism and astrology.
they probably also knew the prophesy of Daniel 9:24-27 about the Messiah – since Daniel spoke and wrote while in Persia and Babylon 500 years earlier and there in Persia they passed the prophesy down until it was time – until the 483- 490 years were up – “Until Messiah the Prince appears”
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Oh good Lord. So many assumptions. Nothing of what you said is found in the gospel. What we do know is that the book of Isaiah very clearly condemns astrologers:
“All the counsel you have received has only worn you out! Let your astrologers come forward, those stargazers who make predictions month by month, let them save you from what is coming upon you” (Isaiah 47:13).
These “Magi” came to “worship” Jesus only after seeing “his star”! Hence, it was through ASTROLOGY that they came to know of Jesus’ birth! WOW!!
Also, according to Justin Martyr, the Magi came from Arabia, not the from Babylonia. Another example of the contradictory oral traditions from which your gospels originated.
And again, one wonders what Mary, a monotheist, was thinking when these astrologers came to worship her son…
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Also, it is interesting that, as with many stories found in Matthew, the Magi story is not found in the other gospels. Did the author make up the story? It seems likely. It is also likely that he was influenced by Roman sources. As Geza Vermes stated:
“It is conceivable that another relatively recent event influenced Matthew and prompted him to introduce the Magi into his narrative. This was the visit to Rome in the late 50s or early 60s AD of the Armenian king Tiridates and his courtiers, whom Pliny the Elder designates as Magi (Natural History 30:6, 16-17). This Tiridates is said to have come to Rome to worship the emperor-god Nero in the same way as Matthew’s Magi came to worship the newborn Messiah of the Jews. A further curious coincidence which may have caught Matthew’s attention is a detail noted by the Roman chronicler Cassius Dio. After Tiridates had been confirmed by Nero as king, this group of ‘Magi,’ like the ‘wise men’ of the New Testament, did not return by the same route as the one they followed coming to Rome (Roman History 63:1-7)” (http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/02/jesus-in-bible-and-quran.html#_edn38)
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“Not true, the Mormons and Hindus worship many gods. (they are not persons within the One God; especially in Mormonism, they are separate gods ruling over their own planets and every male will evolve into a god with many wives on their own planet and pro-create lots of inhabitants for each planet. That is why they believed in polygamy in the beginning.”
Hindus actually believe that the “avatars” are incarnations of their god.
http://www.hinduwebsite.com/incarnation.asp
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Avatars are more like Gnostic emanations or manifestations, not really a true incarnation like Jesus was. Totally different.
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The Magi were probably made up of ethnic Persians, Kurds (from the ancient Medes), Arabs (the Myrrh was famous from Yemen and Oman and Qatar), Babylonians, and Assyrians, as they were from different ethnicities from all over the Persian Empire, which included parts of Arabia and Mesopotamia (today called Iraq). There were more than 3 of them. The text in Matthew does not say “three”.
Magi – μαγοι comes from مغ (Moq), the priests of Zoroastrians, but since Greek did not have غ gh, it became g. and later was translated into مجوس into Arabic, because Arabic does not have hard G as in Girl, which Iranians do have and add a line to k ک ، making it گ . The English is Magi, and later the word “magic” developed from that.
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No idea what relevance this has.
They were astrologers, as the gospel of Matthew shows. Astrologers are condemned in the Tanakh. Also, the story of the Magi was probably just an invention anyway, perhaps taken from Roman accounts of Tiridates and Nero.
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No, the story is not made up. Matthew 2:1-12 is historically true just as it says it is. Liberals and skeptics and unbelievers don’t count for sound exegesis and spiritual truth.
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LOL, there goes the broken record again. Circular arguments will only persuade those who are already brain-washed.
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If you doubt the Magi just because it is only in one gospel; then you must believe in the trials, crucifixion, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, since they are in all four.
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LOL, not at all. First of all, Matthew is known to add new stories to his gospel. Another example is the so-called “Massacre of the Innocents”, an event which was not recorded in the other gospels and even historical sources from the time.
Second, the accounts of the trial, crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection are all contradictory, written by anonymous people. There is no reason to believe them. Other non-canonical sources provide further reasons not to believe the gospels. The Didache fails to mention the resurrection. Justin Martyr provides non-canonical versions of Jesus’ birth, including the Magi story. All of this proves that the NT is a mish-mash of competing oral traditions. What is history and what is myth has been mixed up.
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They don’t contradict each other, they just give different details. Together, they give all the details we need from 4 different angles. Like 4 eyewitnesses of a car crash, one eyewitness on each corner. I recommend A Harmony of the Gospels by Thomas and Gundry – one can see how all 4 fit together. Powerful Word of God that spiritually feeds the soul. Hebrews 4:12
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Patrice asked:
Why separate the divine person from the human person and claim only the human person dies?
Because God cannot die, by definition.
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It can only mean one thing: God is still God, and Jesus is always Human, there is no actual union, therefore the so called “hypostatic union” is nonsense.
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I recommend A Harmony of the Gospels, by Thomas and Gundry
http://www.amazon.com/Harmony-Gospels-New-American-Standard/dp/006063524X
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“They don’t contradict each other, they just give different details. Together, they give all the details we need from 4 different angles. Like 4 eyewitnesses of a car crash, one eyewitness on each corner. I recommend A Harmony of the Gospels by Thomas and Gundry – one can see how all 4 fit together. Powerful Word of God that spiritually feeds the soul. Hebrews 4:12”
“Different details” = “contradictions”. They are one and the same thing. If I said that I saw Bigfoot today, and it was 7ft. tall and had brown fur, whereas someone else said that he also saw Bigfoot but it was 9ft. tall and had black fur, the two accounts provide “different details” and hence are “contradictory”.
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“Avatars are more like Gnostic emanations or manifestations, not really a true incarnation like Jesus was. Totally different.”
Why are you redefining the meaning of “avatars”? According to the Hindu website I referenced above:
“When God incarnates himself upon earth, it is called avatar. […] God reincarnates himself on earth in an earthly form to restore balance reestablish dharma”.
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Do each of the Avatars have the same nature as the one Brahma, and are they eternal into the past, and then become a human in history by being conceived in the womb of a virgin and going through 9 months gestation period and then born as babies and then grow normally, like Jesus did?
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Ken Temple loves covering up the truth. The quintessential ‘Kafir’.
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“Do each of the Avatars have the same nature as the one Brahma, and are they eternal into the past, and then become a human in history by being conceived in the womb of a virgin and going through 9 months gestation period and then born as babies and then grow normally, like Jesus did?”
It would appear so. For example, Vishnu and Krishna are believed by Hindus to be eternal, even though Krishna is supposed to be the “manifestation” of Vishnu. See the following: http://btg.krishna.com/whos-first-vishnu-or-krishna
Some snippets from the article:
“Vishnu and Krishna exist eternally, though it might be said that one is the source of the other, much like the sun and its rays: The sun globe is “prior” in the sense that its rays emanate from it, and not the other way around. But they both exist simultaneously…”
“…Vaishnavism acknowledges a form of polymorphic monotheism. That is to say, it holds that there is one God who appears in numerous manifestations, each distinct and unique. These manifestations, moreover, are considered equal and yet hierarchical as well. They are one, and yet different.”
“…while full manifestations of God are all equal, there is a sense in which one comes from the other, with Krishna existing at the very beginning.”
“In conclusion, the Gaudiya Vaishnava vision of the divine is that all forms of Godhead are equal—since there is only one God—but Krishna enjoys a special position as the “candle who lights the other candles.”
It’s funny that this is also similar to what I hear from Christians all the time!
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Were they conceived in a virgin and grew for 9 months in the womb and then born as babies and lived and grew into manhood for 20-30 years? (and in real history ?)
Hinduism theology had no connection to history.
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While i have in other threads utilized passages of the Qur’an if I thought they were relevant to the discussion I have never once used them as arguments in and of themselves with regards to the deity of Christ as I am not a Muslim it would be pointless for me to do so.
Moving on. You say that the passage in John 20 about Jesus giving the spirit to his disciples as equivalent to God breathing his spirit into Adam. I am a little confused about this as God there was bringing Adam into existence! Are you saying Jesus was creating the disciples while they were already grown men! Context dear boy.
You say that Jesus’ mission was about incarnation, dying for sins, and atoement however where did Jesus say this? Jesus never taught he was incarnated this was a later idea. Jesus cannot die for anyones sins since both the Bible and Qur’an state that no man can avail the sins of another. Jesus’ original message is perfectly in line with the previous Prophets such as Moses and Abraham. Return to that message with swiftness you never know you might even receive a full name!!! 😉
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Patrice
“You say that the passage in John 20 about Jesus giving the spirit to his disciples as equivalent to God breathing his spirit into Adam. I am a little confused about this as God there was bringing Adam into existence!”
Really? That’s what you understood? I said “echoes” god’s actions in genesis, not “recreates” or “does exactly as god did”. That clear now? LOL!!! I’m not seeing why that was such a conundrum for you, I was pretty clear about it. But I can see that you are very confused.
“jesus never taught he was incarnated”
Wut?!! This again?! He taught that he was divine – as I showed you – and so was god incarnate. Easy and simple.
“Jesus cannot die for anyones sins since both the Bible and Qur’an state that no man can avail the sins of another.”
Uh-huh…..
“the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many”.
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“Really? That’s what you understood? I said “echoes” god’s actions in genesis, not “recreates” or “does exactly as god did”. That clear now? LOL!!! I’m not seeing why that was such a conundrum for you, I was pretty clear about it. But I can see that you are very confused.”
dear patrice, ignore this clap trap and have a cup of tea and have a read of this
http://www.postost.net/2015/11/richard-hays-how-it-jesus-gets-pour-out-spirit-god
you see patrice, there are tripliterians and unitarians and both think their religion exists in the corruption called “nt”
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hello patrice
i think you will like this too
http://www.postost.net/2016/04/explicit-implicit-christologies-mark
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I disagree with your parallel between Jesus in John 20 and God creating Adam on two counts, the first being that Jesus only a few verses prior had declared that he had a God and following on from that Jesus therefore could not of himself give anyone the Holy Spirit unless by the authority of the God he worshipped.
You say that I have misunderstood you by referring that Jesus never taught the Incarnation by the fact you have apparently clearly demonstrated Jesus claimed to be God. I disagree with your declaration of victory as you have systematically failed to provide any clear evidence as I have demonstrated in my responses thus far.
Finally you claim that the passage you quoted teaches that Jesus came to die for sin. I am admitedly struggling with this somewhat due to its vagueness especially when you read the context of Mark 10. James and John desiring to be close to their beloved Master even to the point of suffering the same trials as him. Jesus concludes with the statement about giving his life as ransom.
But with that in mind, if Jesus was supposed to die for sin why are so many people including Christians still sinning? The world is still in a mess as it was back in the 1st century. If this was truly Jesus’ mission it is hard to say it was a success.
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Patrice
“I disagree with your parallel between Jesus in John 20 and God creating Adam on two counts, the first being that Jesus only a few verses prior had declared that he had a God and following on from that Jesus therefore could not of himself give anyone the Holy Spirit unless by the authority of the God he worshipped.”
I can see now why you are so easily fooled into believing that dismissive quranic references to christian beliefs somehow indicate a profound knowledge of christian doctrines.
It is not that hard, patrice. Try to think objectively. Jesus makes statements that show his divinity and he makes statements that show his full humanity – hence the two natures of christ. Your mistake is to presume that it has to be one or the other. That is just sloppy thinking and poor reasoning and explains your confusion.
“I disagree with your declaration of victory as you have systematically failed to provide any clear evidence as I have demonstrated in my responses thus far.”
Of course, you disagree with me – you also think that the quran’s complete and utter ignorance of christian doctrine is an indication of its acquaintance with chrsitian doctrine. That makes sense to you and probably to the muslims on this blog, but not to anyone else. All you’ve demonstrated is poor reasoning skills – that is not my problem.
“But with that in mind, if Jesus was supposed to die for sin why are so many people including Christians still sinning?”
That’s a little bit dumb patrice – I don’t know why you think you are so versed on christian doctrine when you repeatedly embarrass yourself with silly questions like that. I’ll try to explain, but I know I’m fighting an uphill battle. LOL!!
Jesus paid the price that god requires for justice to be administered. Your islamic god is not a just god – he allows injustice to persist since he simply ignores sin and forgives. Thus, you worship an imperfect creature who is not perfectly just.
It’s all in the bible, you should read it sometime. LOL!!
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God is merciful and compassionate. He can forgive people without punishment if he so wishes. That is his prerogative. God does not require the death of an innocent human being before he can forgive us. That is unjust.
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D
You said;
I can see now why you are so easily fooled into believing that dismissive quranic references to christian beliefs somehow indicate a profound knowledge of christian doctrines.
It is not that hard, patrice. Try to think objectively. Jesus makes statements that show his divinity and he makes statements that show his full humanity – hence the two natures of christ. Your mistake is to presume that it has to be one or the other. That is just sloppy thinking and poor reasoning and explains your confusion.
I say;
Christians from first century till today do not believe Jesus is God except Trinitarian Christians. Jehovah Witness, Unitarian Christians and other Christian sects do not believe Jesus is God and do not believe Jesus said he is God anywhere.
They do not believe in Quran but has the wisdom like Quran and Patrice who is not a Muslim to challenge you for the proof that Jesus said he is God.
You are not able to provide a proof but to resort to insults. No wonder a hybrid God Man worshiper like you will follow the path of satan to influence people to worship a man.
Jews do not believe Jesus is God but they do not believe in the Quran either. Any ordinary person who is not religious will agree God is One and Only and Jesus is man but not God.
If one rejects your Trinity it does not mean he necessarily believe in the Quran but believe just like the Quran that Trinity is stupid.
Patrice said he is not a Muslim, so respect his position.
Thanks.
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Paul
“God is merciful and compassionate. He can forgive people without punishment if he so wishes. That is his prerogative. ”
And how is justice served in this case? For all those yazidis who have been gang-raped and decapitated by the (Not (LOL))) Islamic State, how are the sins committed against them atoned for if your god randomly decides to forgive those savages who committed the crimes? And how can you know he won’t? And if he does, injustice continues to exist.
Such a god is irrational and untrustworthy.
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God is wise as well as just and merciful. His actions are not random. He is not compelled to always punish people. He can show mercy if he wishes. (Think of the story of the prodigal son in Luke 15 – same principle). Best to leave that in the hands of God.
But it IS contrary to justice that God should require the torturing to death of an innocent human being to atone for guilty persons sin. This is contrary to the teaching of the prophets eg read Ezekiel 18.
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Paul
“But it IS contrary to justice that God should require the torturing to death of an innocent human being to atone for guilty persons sin.”
That isn’t christian doctrine – the doctrine says that god took the sins of the world upon himself through the incarnation, not that he chose a random human being to sacrifice. Christians are saying that god did exactly what you say your god can do – he chose to take on the atonement of sin upon himself.
If you don’t understand that, you will never be a serious commentator on christianity.
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Your understanding of Christian soteriology does not solve the problem: God has to punish an innocent being (himself or his Son) to obtain forgiveness of sins. This violates the important biblical principle that only the guilty should be punished – read Ezekiel 18.
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Paul
“Your understanding of Christian soteriology does not solve the problem: God has to punish an innocent being (himself or his Son) to obtain forgiveness of sins. This violates the important biblical principle that only the guilty should be punished – read ”
What happened to your claim that god can do what he wants? Can he or can’t he?
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D
No body can hold God or someone ransom except God pays. It is blaspheme to think that. You did not answer Patrice concern. Jesus never claimed the following;
———————-
You say that Jesus’ mission was about incarnation, dying for sins, and atoement however where did Jesus say this? Jesus never taught he was incarnated this was a later idea. Jesus cannot die for anyones sins since both the Bible and Qur’an state that no man can avail the sins of another. Jesus’ original message is perfectly in line with the previous Prophets such as Moses and Abraham. Return to that message with swiftness you never know you might even receive a full name!!!😉
———————–
Once again God bless Patrice for following the truth and rejecting untruth. That alone will lead you to God and to the best religion of truth no matter what religion is that it will be the religion of truth InshaAllah. I pray for God to continue to GUIDE YOU to the right path. The path of those whom He has Blessed, not the path of those who are astray like D and Temple who will not hear or listen to truth.
They will stick to the lies they hear from their forefathers and say God died for their sins and say God do not die and they will say they worship Jesus as a Person in whole but divide the persons of Jesus into 2 person, i.e. God and Man and say the man died but the God person did not die.
Ken Temple
You said;
Do each of the Avatars have the same nature as the one Brahma, and are they eternal into the past, and then become a human in history by being conceived in the womb of a virgin and going through 9 months gestation period and then born as babies and then grow normally, like Jesus did?
I say;
Emperor Haile Selaissie and other Trinitarian Gods are eternal into the pas, and then become a human in history by being conceived in the womb of a virgin and going through 9 months gestation period then born as babies and then grow normally, like Jesus did.
It is easy for any one to create a Trinitarian God. But no one can create the Only One, True and Alone God of Abraham.
The God of Abraham never said he stayed in a womb of a virgin woman.
The God of Abraham clearly stated in so many scriptures of Him and verses that He is One, Only and Alone and full stop, period, (.), dot, stop there, stay there, do not add anything He(God) did not say He is etc.
Thank you.
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“Were they conceived in a virgin and grew for 9 months in the womb and then born as babies and lived and grew into manhood for 20-30 years? (and in real history ?)
Hinduism theology had no connection to history.”
Of course they were “conceived”. What difference does it make if they were conceived in a virgin or not? They were still conceived!
You move the goal post as soon as you realize you are walking on thin ice. How do you know “Hinduism theology had no connection in history”? You are assuming too many things without bothering to even research it. Not very objective of you!
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You seem to still think you have demonstrated that Jesus claimed to be God despite hardly answering any of my points! What an odd definition of victory 😉
You say that i am guilty of a black and white view on Jesus however I have done nothing but quote Jesus’ words in context (something you have repeatedly failed to do). The truth is that John 20 states both that Jesus had a God and that he gave the disciples the gift of the Holy Spirit. If Jesus is not God as the passage states he could not have given the spirit of God to anyone without first having Gods permission:
17 Jesus said to her, “Do not hold on to me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” 18 Mary Magdalene went and announced to the disciples, “I have seen the Lord”; and she told them that he had said these things to her.
19 When it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and the doors of the house where the disciples had met were locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord. 21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
Of course, you disagree with me – you also think that the quran’s complete and utter ignorance of christian doctrine is an indication of its acquaintance with chrsitian doctrine. That makes sense to you and probably to the muslims on this blog, but not to anyone else. All you’ve demonstrated is poor reasoning skills – that is not my problem. – John 20:17-22 NRSV
Perhaps you need to take it up with Jesus as your problem seems to be with him 😉
Finally you say that Jesus ‘paid the price’ what do you mean by this? Paid the price for justice? And this couldn’t be done before? What about all the sacrifices and talk of repentance? What about the ritual of Baptism which was clearly something that pre-existed Christianity? And you still haven’t explained if this is the case why people still sin including Christians? How can justice be truly achieved if humanity (the guilty party) are still commiting the same crimes over and over again?
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“Finally you say that Jesus ‘paid the price’ what do you mean by this? Paid the price for justice? And this couldn’t be done before? ”
they think sin is a transaction. little do they know that sins aren’t passed around like money .
jesus couldn’t pass his flesh to every rapist on planet earth because that would be an injustice to the victim of rape regardless how many times a god willingly passes himself to rapists .
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Patrice
Where have I claimed victory? Please point it out exactly where I said I have a victory. This shows even more clearly that you don’t have a solid grasp of rational thought. You asked me where jesus said he was divine, where he said he came to die for our sins and where he said he was the suffering servant.
I showed where the verses that christians cite to support their doctrines – your response is to repeat the same questions, declare that I have no victory even though I haven’t even spoken in those terms, and to proclaim your disbelief. LOL!!
I’m not entirely sure what it is you are trying to derive from this conversation – other than to show me how poorly you utilize your rational functions.
“You say that i am guilty of a black and white view on Jesus however I have done nothing but quote Jesus’ words in context (something you have repeatedly failed to do). The truth is that John 20 states both that Jesus had a God and that he gave the disciples the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
Really Patrice? The same question? LOL!!! Your false dichotomy on jesus is obvious and the only conclusion one can draw from your comments – you have poor reasoning ability and can’t see you errors.
Okay, okay, I’ll play it again, sam. Jesus made statements that clearly shows that he thought of himself as divine, and statements that clearly show that he was fully human – he made both statements. Okay? Does the fourth time of telling help?
“Perhaps you need to take it up with Jesus as your problem seems to be with him”
Now you are just embarrassing yourself – my view on jesus is clear. Yours is confused and the only reason I can see for why you are confused is that you have some kind of reasoning dysfunction. You view the complete absence of mention of basic christian doctrines from the quran as evidence that the quran had profound knowledge of it, you repeat the same questions that have been clearly answered and you place an unwarranted caveat of a dichotomy on jesus claims. That isn’t my fault dude – nor the bible’s.
“Finally you say that Jesus ‘paid the price’ what do you mean by this? ”
What about the words “jesus paid the price for justice to be administered” do you have trouble understanding patrice? The muslim god doesn’t care if sin goes unpunished – if someone murders your uncle, let’s say, your god can just blow it off and allow it to go unpunished – and justice has not been served. Hence the muslim god is imperfect in his justice and can’t be god. If your god just blows off the sin, then you and your uncle as victims have not received justice. Get it? Somehow, I don’t think you will LOL!!!!
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mrsonic
“they think sin is a transaction. little do they know that sins aren’t passed around like money .”
Do we? Don’t muslims have an angel on each shoulder counting the good and bad deeds that they do in their life? Doesn’t a good deeds of erase a bad deed for muslims? What then is the price for murder? How many circumambulations around the kaaba must you perform to erase that?
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“Do we? Don’t muslims have an angel on each shoulder counting the good and bad deeds that they do in their life? Doesn’t a good deeds of erase a bad deed for muslims? What then is the price for murder? How many circumambulations around the kaaba must you perform to erase that?”
christian theology teaches that all actions like rape, murder , homosexuality, blasphemy and others was punished on jesus.
1. who punished all these actions on jesus?
2. who poured all these actions on jesus?
3. so the father sees past, present and future rapes, does he pour all action of rape on jesus?
4. is jesus VICTIM and helpless god who receives rapes from all years?
since christians are born in sin and god gave them sinful nature and sinful heart, christian can wash himself by beating his /her sin on jezus . christian at the same time tells himself that divine consequences he need not fear.
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D why do you believe that an innocent person dying for guilty people is justice? If someone killed my Uncle surely that person should face the consequences? and how many times do i have to say I’m not a Muslim besides i thought there was only one God are you not a monotheist?
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Patrice
“why do you believe that an innocent person dying for guilty people is justice? If someone killed my Uncle surely that person should face the consequences? and how many times do i have to say I’m not a Muslim besides i thought there was only one God are you not a monotheist?”
That is just a rambling mess of nonsense. I’m not sure where to begin.
Through the incarnation and crucifixion, god took the sins of the world upon himself – that is, he paid the price for your transgressions, all you have to do is repent. That is basic, basic christian belief – how can you be a skeptic when you don’t seem to understand that fundamental and simple concept of christian doctrine?
Paul is disagreeing with you – he is saying that the person who killed your uncle might not face justice when he goes before your god. If you think that is unjust then you agree with me that the muslim god is unjust by nature.
And you have become incoherent – what are you talking about with this monotheism nonsense. Christians are monotheists – haven’t you understood a single word I have written?
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The Son voluntarily came and gave his life for sinners from all the nations. Like a courageous man who jumps in front of someone going to be shot and takes the bullet for them. That is love and courage and greatness and nobility.
Jesus came and took our sin and guilt and punishment for us voluntarily. why don’t you understand the word “voluntarily” and “love” ??
John 10:18
“No one takes My life from Me; I lay it down voluntarily on My own initiative; and have authority to lay it down and take it up again . . . “
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“Through the incarnation and crucifixion, god took the sins of the world upon himself – that is, he paid the price for your transgressions, all you have to do is repent”
how does a god punishing himself imply that your action of sin you did yesterday has been punished when you weren’t punished ?
you are created with sin nature and sin heart, you can’t help sinning because of your nature and your god nailed his own head to the floor for your transgression?
god made you disabled person who is born in sin
so how is punishing himself solving your problem?
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“The Son voluntarily came and gave his life for sinners from all the nations. Like a courageous man who jumps in front of someone going to be shot and takes the bullet for them. That is love and courage and greatness and nobility.”
“love and courage” ?
what kind of a lie you spout from your mouth?
what is your worth without a bloody sacrificial ritual?
what happens if you don’t believe that your god gave himself life even though he has an immortal one?
which soldier says , ” if you don’t believe i will come back to life after 3 days i will fry you in hell like beacon” ?
since a god designed himself to “bear” his own self abuse, then their is nothing courages in this self abusing act because a god made everyone “born in sin”
except himself to appease himself
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“Through the incarnation and crucifixion, god took the sins of the world upon himself – that is, he paid the price for your transgressions, all you have to do is repent. ”
so your god self abused himself by raping himself with ALL sinful actions in ALL years, yet he knows @ the same time that he could PUNISH severely in the depths of hell?
you really do worship a self abusing nut case, don’t you?
why do you “repent” when
your repentance is part of a transgressed heart which will produce sin stained repentance?
you have made your god punisher of himself and helpless being, yet @ same time he can punish at will anyone he pleases to punish.
you have made your god a victim of his own problem
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mrsonic
You are too much of a genius for me! I concede!!!
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1. who poured the violent divine wrath on jesus?
romans or yhwh?
2. did yhwh pour his violent punishment on himself for all sins in all years?
3. did yhwh pour the wrath on the flesh or the invisible person in the flesh?
4. if the flesh is not yhwh and the spirit is yhwh did the spirit experience what the flesh experienced?
all many persons in trinity self abused one of the persons in trinity?
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Debate on the Trinity – Adnan Rashid vs. James White
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2016/05/17/debate-on-the-trinity-james-white-vs-adnan-rashid/
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I was there…
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Did you say hello to Dr. White?
Adnan has a good spirit and personality and he and Dr. White demonstrate we can debate and respect one another and be friends, even though we disagree. Some of the folks here should learn from Adnan and Shabir and Abdullah Kunde, and not use dirty language (like Robert2016 who is a nut) and others who have a bad method and ad hominem attacks.
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Yes I agree, the worst offenders are ‘nuts’ like Sam Shamoun who is abusive and uses dirty language all the time. And he is a Spirit filled Christian! But I know you have condemned his behaviour before.
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So Jesus dies and pays for my transgressions? But why does he need to do this at all why can’t God just forgive if he wants to? It didn’t stop him in the Tanakh in fact people would often offer atonement for their sins and were forgiven according to that system. Whats changed?
Secondly you say that in Islam God doesn’t punish evil doers, well neither does yours! Jesus does it instead so the guilty can just walk free and do as they please while the victims receive nothing and if they are non-Christians they go to Hell without a chance to repent. I hope my Uncle is a Christian….or else 😉
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Ken that is indeed very courageous but perhaps the wrong metaphor. You say Jesus died for our sins voluntarily but why does he need to do it at all and why can’t God just forgive as he has always done?
Furthermore there is nothing loving nor just in an innocent person having to take the punishment of the guilty.
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Because God is also Just and holy and must punish sin. the cross is God’s expression of both love for sinners and justice against sin.
God did it in a way that satisfies His justice and holiness and demonstrates His love.
“God demonstrates His own love for us, in that while we yet sinners, Christ died for us.” Romans 5:8
You have to have a perfect mediator who ransomed you and can plead your case before the Holiness of God.
Your view makes light of God’s holiness, justice, and wrath against sin.
our view takes both God’s justice and God’s love seriously.
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God does not HAVE to punish anyone if he so chooses. Consider the parable of the prodigal son. Forgiveness from God, no punishment
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Without a perfect ransom and perfect mediator, a person is alone as a rebellious sinner to face a holy God, and that person has the wrath of God abiding on them (John 3:18; 3:36; Ephesians 2:1-3; Revelation 14:10) God’s wrath is a just and holy wrath. Jesus the Son took the wrath voluntarily in the unity of purpose of the Trinity.
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You have to ask yourself why God set up the sacrificial system in the OT in the first place, and why the Passover (the blood of the lamb had to be put on the door posts to avert the wrath/death angel of judgment). (God killed animals to forgive Adam and Eve’s sin and make them skins to cover their shame – Genesis 3; Exodus 12, Leviticus chapters 1-7, 16-17; 2 Chronicles 3:1 (temple built on Mt. Moriah – looks back to Genesis 22 and Abraham and even the Qur’an says, “we have ransomed him with a mighty sacrifice”. (Surah 37:107), 1 Kings 8, and Daniel 9:24-27 and Isaiah 53 shows prophesies of Messiah to come to pay for sins.
You have to ask yourself, Why did God even ask Abraham to sacrifice his son? (Genesis 22; Qur’an 37:107 – context)
Yes, it was a trial and test (Genesis 22:1), but why?
Why something that is morally wrong? (human sacrifice is sin and morally wrong)
Why would God ask him to do what is wrong?
Even the Qur’an and Islam agrees that child sacrifice is wrong, so why would God even ask this . . . ?
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“You have to ask yourself why God set up the sacrificial system in the OT in the first place”,
because the jews borrowed the blood atonement idea from their pagan neighbours. i never see you talking about how pagan human sacrificial rituals foreshadowed your gods “ultimate” sacrifice.
” and why the Passover (the blood of the lamb had to be put on the door posts to avert the wrath/death angel of judgment).”
have you studied ancient gods obsession with blood, animal and human sacrifice? is it surprising that the hebrews developed obsession for it?
it was not the blood which avoided wrath it was the willingness to paint with blood/obedience.
completely different. the wrath is avoided because the commandment was obeyed. emphasis is not on blood but obedience.
god saw the PAINTING/deed and navigated away
”
(God killed animals to forgive Adam and Eve’s sin and make them skins to cover their shame –”
was he powerless to poof them into existence?
”
Genesis 3; Exodus 12, Leviticus chapters 1-7, 16-17; 2 Chronicles 3:1 (temple built on Mt. Moriah – looks back to Genesis 22 and Abraham and even the Qur’an says, “we have ransomed him with a mighty sacrifice”. (Surah 37:107), 1 Kings 8, and Daniel 9:24-27 and Isaiah 53 shows prophesies of Messiah to come to pay for sins.”
are you seriously telling me that your god got inspiration to kill himself physically by looking at animal sacrifices???
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sorry, but how is it “courageous” for a god to pour is own wrath on himself for rape, homosexuality, murder and a bunch load of other crimes when he is in control of all sins from all years, bunches them up and then punishes himself ?
self abuse is to shift attention
so a god designs himself to bear his own wrath and temporarily punish himself because he needs to defuse the anger building up in him
jesus and father are only punishing each other to bring ease within the trinity
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“But it IS contrary to justice that God should require the torturing to death of an innocent human being to atone for guilty persons sin.”
That isn’t christian doctrine – the doctrine says that god took the sins of the world upon himself through the incarnation, not that he chose a random human being to sacrifice. ”
1. did jesus do the sinful act? yes or no
2. did the criminal do the sinful act and is criminal?
3. did the criminal do sinful act on jesus and then jesus punished himself for the act the criminal did on him?
4. if jesus did not do the sinful act and is “innocent” then is it SUFFERING and pain which is required from divine being?
5. if jesus is “innocent” then what is required in divine justice that “innocent” must suffer? so it is SUFFERING which is required to appease kind, loving and fair god?
6. why does a christian have to imagine suffering of a self abusing god when innocent children are dying of hunger this minute?
7. why not repent through the suffering of a new born baby which knows no sin?
8. did god have the power to escape or save himself from the temple like sacrifices in the jewish torah?
if not , then the mandate to sacrifice becomes a law which is something god CANNOT choose to avoid which mean he was bound to human sacrificial ritual.
9. how is your god powerful when he can’t forgive without a RITUAL?
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Ken your answer does not explain why God needs to punish Jesus in order to achieve this forgiveness. Why can forgiveness only be achieved through some kind of tribute? seems a lot like the pagan Gods to me. I would argue you are making light of Gods holiness and justice by allowing the guilty to be saved while the innocent are meant to suffer.
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“Because God is also Just and holy and must punish sin. the cross is God’s expression of both love for sinners and justice against sin.”
the cross is gods expression on how he quit and punished himself .
if god is “holy” why can unholy like you who is born in sin, stand up and talk to god? you are still polluted in sin and you still try to fight of satanic temptations .
your god nailing himself fixed up his anger management , but it hasn’t cured the problem god created which is “born in sin”
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“Without a perfect ransom and perfect mediator, a person is alone as a rebellious sinner to face a holy God, and that person has the wrath of God abiding on them (John 3:18; 3:36; Ephesians 2:1-3; Revelation 14:10) God’s wrath is a just and holy wrath. Jesus the Son took the wrath voluntarily in the unity of purpose of the Trinity. ”
God has never required a ransom for anyone or anything. If God wishes to forgive he just does as Paul said look to the Parable of the Prodigal Son or to the parable of the rich man and the tax collector for proof of this. No sacrifice needed.
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The Prodical Son and the Parable of the Rich man and tax collector are all in the context of Judaism and the temple is still standing at the time. The parable of the rich man and the tax-collector whole context is going to the temple, they pray AFTER they sacrifice; and the tax-collector says, “be propitious to me, the sinner”. It is a deep word, more than just “have mercy on me”.
Luke 18:13 καὶ ὁ τελώνης μακρόθεν ἑστὼς οὐκ ἤθελεν οὐδὲ τοὺς ὀφθαλμοὺς εἰς τὸν οὐρανόν ἐπᾶραι ἀλλ᾽ ἔτυπτεν εἰς τὸ στῆθος αὐτοῦ λέγων, Ὁ θεός ἱλάσθητί μοι τῷ ἁμαρτωλῷ
“But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be propitious to me, the sinner!’
Context – those who trust in themselves and think they are righteous (if you think your repentance is sincere and you are good; you are wrong.)
Luke 18:9-10
And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt:
“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
they had to sacrifice first.
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God has never required a ransom for anyone or anything.
The whole OT is about God’s requirement for sacrifice and ransom, and even the Qur’an mentions this, “we have ransomed him with a mighty sacrifice” (Surah 37:107) because it could not avoid the reality of the meaning of the necessity of sacrifice for sin, by using Genesis 22.
“In the day you eat of it, you shall surely die” (Genesis 2:16-17; chapter 3)
the soul that sins, it shall die. (be punished) (Ezekiel 18)
The wages of sin is death. Romans 3:23
Jesus came and took the punishment and death for sinners from all the nations. (Revelation 5:9)
therefore, repent and trust in Christ.
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Leviticus 17:11 – “the blood . . on the altar to make atonement for your souls . . . ”
“Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins” Hebrews 9:22
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Leviticus 17:11 – “the blood . . on the altar to make atonement for your souls . . . ”
“Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins” Hebrews 9:22″
vampire.
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No; it is holy Scripture, the Word of God.
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“Your view makes light of God’s holiness, justice, and wrath against sin.”
ken since you are a born in sin sinner and you are GUARANTEED to sin today and tomorrow, are you not making light of god’s holiness when u do sin?
if you go around preaching about how sin makes your god helpless, then aren’t you just talking about sin just to be seen by men?
ken , how does believing that your god opened his flesh for your sin and gave himself recovery make you in your gods presence when you are GUARANTEED to sin?
are you not boasting about sin and at the same time telling yourself that you are free from any divine punishment?
are you not boasting in your heart?
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are you not boasting about sin and at the same time telling yourself that you are free from any divine punishment?
are you not boasting in your heart?
No; because it is God’s grace.
and No, because God also changes us and gives us new desires and ability for deeper levels of repentance, holiness, goodness.
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“No; because it is God’s grace.
and No, because God also changes us and gives us new desires and ability for deeper levels of repentance, holiness, goodness.”
ken, how did opening of flesh and bathing yourself in human blood change you when you are guaranteed to sin and still remain in your polluted christian condition?
ken, how can you go into “deeper levels of repentance, holiness, goodness” when u have a sinful born in sin nature which will always be a stumbling block for your repentance, holiness, goodness?
ken, your hearth wishes nothing but evil and your theology says your gods “grace” gave you an evil heart, you were born with it.
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ken, if god was a loving call he would allow you to have a direct “phone call” conversation with him. but your god tolerates your because only a violent ritual is the closest thing to his heart. your god has no forgiveness in him but a need for ritualistic flesh opening.
your god needs to get his blood
needs to get his vengeance
needs to get his flesh opening
needs to get his suffering
only so he can use the ritual between you and himself
ken, your god don’t love you. he only tolerate you because of ritual. he only want relationship with you through opening of flesh and blood.
ken, i have seen jesus taken out of people. i have seen them baptised and freed from jesus. ken, i can get you help .
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Fido barked:
“Your prayer and worship rituals come from the pagans. No jewish prophet would have accepted that – and god does not accept it.
Your hadith are man-made and your prayer and worship rituals fill in the blanks by borrowing from the pagans because your god’s word was too unclear and largely irrelevant to your practices.
You have all but admitted this. The torah spells out worship and the law down to the minutest detail – the quran is so vague that islam had to plagiarize pagan rituals to give it any meaning. LOL!!”
LOL!!! Fido’s assumptions and ignorance keep reaching new heights! You still haven’t looked into the works of Harald Motzki or Fuat Sezgin, huh? What are you of, Fido? Is your bark worse than your bite? LOL!!!
What is more pagan than believing in a god that needs blood atonement to forgive sins? You might as well worship Zeus or Chemosh! LOL!!!
Isn’t it surprising that the first people to worship your man-god were 3 pagan astrologers (i.e. the Magi)? No Jewish prophet would have accepted that, since Isaiah condemns astrology as a heresy! LOL!!!
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Correction – What are you AFRAID of Fido?
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