Vasily Ivanovich Surikov – Temptation of Christ
‘Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, left the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, where for forty days he was tempted by the devil. He ate nothing during those days, and at the end of them he was hungry.’
Luke 4:1-13
‘When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone’
James 1:13
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Blogging Theology 
LOL!!
This is desperate even for this blog, Paul.
Jesus was never tempted – that is clear – despite the efforts of satan.
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Whether Jesus submit to that evil whispers or not is another issue. Even many Righteous persons never submits to Satanic whispers.The question is that God cannot be tempted.And here we see Jesus has been tempted.Hence He is not God. That’s the point Mr. Paul Williams wants to make.If Jesus indeed was God, how could Satan even try to command Jesus to worship him? How could Satan even have tried to offer Jesus the kingdoms of the earth when everything is God’s?
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Shaaz
“That’s the point Mr. Paul Williams wants to make.If Jesus indeed was God, how could Satan even try to command Jesus to worship him?”
Paul’s point is vague and is a silly play on words that might convince brainwashed muslims but no one else. But as I have pointed out, it is a stupid point. To raise such a question, you would have to ask yourself, why would satan rebel against god at all? This is what I mean by satan does not know god – if he did he would not try to overthrow him.
Satan is an usurper who wants the throne of god – why he believes he can take it is not my concern. Christians don’t concern themselves with the mind of satan and why he does what he does – that’s satanic and satanism, and apparently the concern of some of the muslims on this blog.
Maybe you can answer for satan – why would even try to rebel against god and usurp his throne when he knows everything is god’s (the true god’s) creation?
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Shaaz
It also doesn’t help your case when we discover that your god actually tempts people – which suggests according to Paul’s reasoning (and I agree) that muslims cannot worship the true god since according to James 1:13 god does not tempt anyone.
You guys call it “testing” but he does it sometimes by temptation. God doesn’t tempt – you guys do the math.
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Well, I did asked myself.Due to the arrogance and hence disobeying God’s command He turned to Satan as God expelled Him. In return Satan asked for respite until Judgement day and He promised to God that He will tempt every one of his servant and will led astray. But only God’s Humble servant will not respond to Satan’s call or whispers.
Secondly, you said that, ” Satan is an usurper who wants the throne of god”. Well SATAN can never prevail over God.There’s no point in thinking like that. Satan can only prevail over Human being and especially those with Weak faith.
If we are to assume that Jesus is God as some Christian apologists and missionaries would contend, then this whole episode is very problematic indeed. Just imagine it for a second, that Jesus is literally God and yet there he is all helpless and being tempted by none other than Satan, Satan his creation whom he banished from the Garden of Eden is now trying to tempt him. Satan is telling God to worship him, and telling God that Satan will grant him all authority and power over the kingdoms, the whole thing sounds mightily absurd if we are to believe Jesus is God.Another problem is that if Jesus is indeed God, then Satan is tempting him with things he already owns. After all God has all authority over all kingdoms, and not just kingdoms but practically the entire universe. So why would Satan tempt ‘god’ with something he owns, where’s the appeal behind it?All in all the temptation of Jesus is clear evidence that Jesus is certainly not God.
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Shaaz
What on earth are you talking about?!!
You haven’t even come close to addressing the problem I’ve raised – you’ve just rambled incoherently and said very little.
“Secondly, you said that, ” Satan is an usurper who wants the throne of god”. Well SATAN can never prevail over God.There’s no point in thinking like that.”
Wut?!! Holy moly! It sounds like you haven’t a clue what I was trying to convey to you. Let me spell it out bro.
You claim that satan would not waste his time trying to tempt god because he would know that it was god that he was trying to tempt. Yet, you, Paul, and the other muslim bros on this blog quite stupidly have no problem with satan rebelling against god – are you saying that satan does not know he is rebelling against god? You guys are being incoherent.
“But only God’s Humble servant will not respond to Satan’s call or whispers.”
Ouch.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_Verses#Tabar.C4.AB.27s_account
Draw your own conclusions.
Also, your god tempts when he tests and according to your argument, god does not tempt – so what does that make your god? Surely it means that you worship something that cannot be the god of the bible?
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I ain’t incoherent rather am being logical here. REBELLING and TEMPTING are two different issues. In Islam, we know that Satan rebelled due to his superiority Complex i.e., He is better than one who has been made from clay by God, and He was also oblivious of the consequences henceforth.But SATAN tempting God was really absurd. It’s like a servant enticing His King that serve me I will give you this and that. LOL!!
Secondly, the argument here is SATAN tempting GOD. Stick to that. We are not discussing about God’s trials and tribulations for Humans. And of course this Life is a test. Because of this test we gonna be admitted to either HELL or HEAVEN.
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Brother D, let me help you prove that Allah tempts people to do evil. Enjoy!
Do not covet what We have granted myriads of people of the pomp and glitter of this world to tempt them. The means your Lord has given you are better far and more enduring. S. 20:131 Ahmed Ali
Every soul will know the taste of death. WE TEMPT YOU WITH EVIL and with good as a trial; and to Us you will return. S. 21:35 Ahmed Ali
In this next case, Allah claims to have been the one who tempted Israel to worship the golden calf through the agency of the Samaritan:
Said He, ‘We have tempted thy people since thou didst leave them. The Samaritan has misled them into error.’ S. 20:85 Arberry
In this verse, Allah tempted the Israelites to break the sabbath by commanding the fish to appear to them on top of the water so as to provoke the Israelites to fish and therefore do work:
Ask them about the town which overlooked the sea and what befell its people when they broke the Sabbath. On their Sabbath the fish appeared before them floating on the water, but on week–days they never came near them. Thus did We tempt them because they had done wrong. S. 7:163 N. J. Dawood
It gets a lot worse for these Muslims. The Quran affirms that Allah makes immorality and evil alluring and pleasant to people:
Revile not ye those whom they call upon besides God, lest they out of spite revile God in their ignorance. Thus have We made alluring to each people its own doings. In the end will they return to their Lord, and We shall then tell them the truth of all that they did. S. 6:108 Y. Ali
Lo! as for those who believe not in the Hereafter, We have made their works fairseeming unto them so that they are all astray. S. 27:4
But that’s not at all. According to some of the so-called sound ahadith, Muhammad reportedly taught that Allah has actually predetermined the amount of adultery a person must necessarily commit:
Narrated Ibn ‘Abbas:
I did not see anything so resembling minor sins as what Abu Huraira said from the Prophet, who said, “Allah has written for the son of Adam his INEVITABLE share of adultery whether he is aware of it or not: The adultery of the eye is the looking (at something which is sinful to look at), and the adultery of the tongue is to utter (what it is unlawful to utter), and the innerself wishes and longs for (adultery) and the private parts turn that into reality or refrain from submitting to the temptation.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 77, Number 609)
Verily Allah has fixed the very portion of adultery which a man will indulge in, and which he OF NECESSITY MUST COMMIT (or there would be no escape from it). (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6421; see also Number 6422)
Therefore, according to the very passage that Paul cited, i.e. James 1:13, Allah is a false god since he tempts people with evil and lust, something which the true God never does or can do.
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Let’s expose D’s helper Paul’s Mischievious Pal.
First of all none of the famous Translator be it Saheeh International, Pickthall, Yusuf Ali, and Khan-Hilali
used the word TEMPT. Let’s go to Arabic now. The verb form i.e, TEMPT is translated as ‘JAZB’,JARB, HASH,GAWA,IKHTABAR. But sadly none of this word is there in the verse quoted.
Now let’s deal verse by verse:
#21:35- the word here is WA’NABLIKUM which means And We test you. This verse is saying and I quote 2 tafsirs here,
Ibn Kathir says: (and We shall test you with evil and with good by way of trial. ) Meaning, “We shall test you, sometimes with difficulties and sometimes with ease, to see who will give thanks and who will be ungrateful, who will have patience and who will despair.”
Maulana Mawdudi says: That is, Allah is always putting human beings to test and trial both through adversity and affluence. This is to judge whether prosperity makes them proud, cruel and slaves of their lusts or they become grateful to Allah. On the other hand, He inflicts adversity upon them in order to see whether they remain within the prescribed and lawful limits or become low-spirited and down-hearted. A sensible person therefore should not be deluded by prosperity and adversity, but should keep their trial element in view and try to pass through it gracefully.
Mufti Shafi Usmani says : It means man is tested both by good things and bad: bad includes unpleasant things like illness , grief, pain, poverty, Good means good health happiness, comfort, etc. Man is subjected to such things to test them whether He is patient and thankful in the circumstances or not.
#20:85 – Ibn Kathir says that , Allah informs His Prophet, Musa, of what happened to the Children of Israel after he left them, and their deification of the calf that As-Samiri had made for them.
So again Paul’s Mischievious Pal has misinterpreted the entire verse.
#7:163- the word here is NABLUHUM. Which is translated as “Test you”. The jews first broke the sabbath and despite God’s command they went for that which is forbidden.Men are tested by God in a variety of ways. When a person or group of people begin to turn away from God and incline themselves towards disobedience, God provides abundant opportunities for them to disobey. This is done in order that the full potential for disobedience, which had remained hidden because of lack of such an opportunity, might come to the surface.This exactly happened to the sabbath brokers.
Anyway LIFE is a test. Allah tells us that we will be tested. He also makes it clear to us what is expected from us when we undergo these trials and what our reward will be if we are successful.
Next Paul’s mischievious Pal quoted 6:108 and 27:4.
First of all, the Qur’an makes it very clear that everyone has free will and that it is by the person’s free will he commits sins and not by Allah’s influence [Read Qur’an 16:33-34, 18:29, 25:57, 45:22]
As I said before,LIFE is a test. Allah tells us that we will be tested. Men are tested by God in a variety of ways. When a person or group of people begin to turn away from God and incline themselves towards disobedience, God provides abundant opportunities for them to disobey. This is done in order that the full potential for disobedience, which had remained hidden because of lack of such an opportunity, might come to the surface. The reason why Allah is misguiding them is because they themselves are corrupted and don’t want to be in a relationship with Allah in the first place. And the person those who are misguided are those who are defiantly disobedient. Read Qur’an 2:26, 14;27,61:5.
ALLAH ONLY GUIDE THOSE WHO STRIVE IN THE WAY OF ALLAH.Read Qur’an 29:69
Allah makes the deeds of the disbelievers alluring to them because those are defiantly disobedient and don’t want to strive for having a relationship with Allah. So it is their fault, not Allah’s.
AND ALLAH DOESN’T COMMAND IMMORALITY. Go read Qur’an 7:28,16:90.
Let me turn the tables now.Some people have been tempted by God of Bible.
God tempted Abraham to kill his son Isaac for a burnt offering.God did tempt Abraham … And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac … and offer him there for a burnt offering. Genesis 22:1
And Jesus says we should pray that God will not tempt us. (Which wouldn’t be necessary if God never tempts anyone.)And lead us not into temptation. Matthew 6:13
Now if Paul’s pal come up and say oh no, actual translation is test not tempt. Then I ask why Paul’s pal not treat Qur’an the same way he treat Bible. This shows how hypocrite he is.
Finally, Paul’s mischievious Pal brought up two hadis related to Qadr or predestination.i MUST SAY Pauls’s mischievious Pal has patently absurd understanding of the text. time for full CAPS.
HOW CAN YOU BE SO INSOLENT AND SHAMELESS THAT YOU MAKE A LIE AND PUT A REFERENCE TO DIRECTLY EXPOSE YOUR OWN LIE?
The 2 hadis basically says that We the humans will be subjected to such things, as God knows everything.Immodesty, obscenity and any form of adutery be it of the eyes, ears, tongue or thoughts makes a hole in the heart. Through this hole leaks out eeman. While an inappropriate thought might occur to anybody, as the Satan is always trying to inspire people with these, yet it is the person who decides whether to entertain such ideas, discussion, temptation or turn away from them.Just because Allah might have predestined something evil to occur that doesn’t mean that this evil is ascribed to Him. This only means that He knew that this evil would occur, recorded that it would occur, allowed it to occur as He has given respite to Satan. That is all.God has sent Prophets and Guidance (i.e., Holy Books) so that People turn away from evil ways and practices and turn to God.Qur’an makes it very clear that everyone has free will and that it is by the person’s free will he commits sins and not by Allah’s influence [Read Qur’an 16:33-34, 18:29, 25:57, 45:22]
Concentrate on the last line of the two hadis. ” turn that into reality or refrain from submitting to the temptation” & ” may or may not put into effect”.
From this Hadis what We Muslims take home is , to avoid the major form of adultery, the more we stay away from the minor forms of it as stated in the hadis, i.e. the adultery of the eyes, tongue, ears and thoughts, the safer we will be. Avoid movies that glamorize the immoral. Avoid hearing obscene talk. If an indecent thought occurs to you, seek refuge with Allah (subhana wa ta’ala) from the Shaytaan and don’t entertain such thoughts.
Finally, who cares what Paul says in his epistles?? Paul is a corrupter of Jesus’ message. And your Bible is corrupted . So next time don’t bring your Bible to somehow disprove Qur’an and say Bible says this and that.We don’t give a damn about it. Qur’an is criterion not the Bible.
So at the end. Paul’s mischievious Pal has miserably failed.
And Mr.D better you use your own brain than to take a stupid person as a helper.
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Let’s expose this illiterate Muhammadan named Shaz who chose to ignore what I wrote and run to his expositors thinking they would save him from humiliation.
Let me repeat what he didn’t want to deal with:
Narrated Ibn ‘Abbas:
I did not see anything so resembling minor sins as what Abu Huraira said from the Prophet, who said, “Allah has written for the son of Adam his INEVITABLE share of adultery whether he is aware of it or not: The adultery of the eye is the looking (at something which is sinful to look at), and the adultery of the tongue is to utter (what it is unlawful to utter), and the innerself wishes and longs for (adultery) and the private parts turn that into reality or refrain from submitting to the temptation.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 77, Number 609)
Verily Allah HAS FIXED the very portion of adultery which a man will indulge in, and which he OF NECESSITY MUST COMMIT (or there would be no escape from it). (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6421; see also Number 6422)
Now which part of the hadith which says IT IS ALLAH WHO HAS DECREED, HAS FIXED THAT A MAN SHALL NECESSARILY AND INEVITABLY COMMIT ADULTERY WASN’T CLEAR?
He also conveniently ignored the fact THAT IT WAS ALLAH WHO COMMANDED FISH TO SURFACE ON TOP OF THE WATER ON THE SABBATH SO AS TO TEMPT THE JEWS TO SIN:
Ask them about the town which overlooked the sea and what befell its people when they broke the Sabbath. On their Sabbath the fish appeared before them floating on the water, but on week–days they never came near them. Thus DID WE TEMPT THEM because they had done wrong. S. 7:163 N. J. Dawood
AND IT WAS ALLAH WHO TEMPTED THE ISRAELITES TO WORSHIP THE CALF WHICH THE SAMARITAN MADE:
Said He, ‘WE HAVE TEMPTED thy people since thou didst leave them. The Samaritan has misled them into error.’ S. 20:85 Arberry
Now to further prove that it was Allah who used the Samaritan to tempt the Israelites to commit shirk, note what the following verses say happened after the calf jumped out of the fire:
And the people of Moses made, in his absence, out of their ornaments, a calf – a lifeless body, PRODUCING A LOWING SOUND. Did they not see that it spoke not to them, nor guided them to any way? They took it for worship and they were transgressors. And when they were smitten with remorse and saw that they had indeed gone astray, they said, ‘If our Lord have not mercy on us and forgive us, we shall surely be of the losers.’ And when Moses returned to his people, indignant and grieved, he said, ‘Evil is that which you did in my place in my absence. Did you hasten to devise a way for yourselves without waiting for the command of your Lord?’ And he put down the tablet and seized his brother by the head, dragging him towards himself. Aaron said, ‘Son of my mother, the people indeed deemed me weak, and were about to kill me. Therefore make not the enemies rejoice over my misfortune and place me not with the unjust people.’ S. 7:148-150 Sher Ali
There’s more to the confusion:
Moses) said: And what hast thou to say, O Samiri? He said: I perceived what they perceive not, so I seized a handful from the footsteps of the messenger, and then threw it in. Thus my soul commended to me. S. 20:95-96 Pickthall
A couple of good questions to ask are, who made this lifeless calf make a lowing sound? And what was it that as-Samiri grabbed a handful of, and what messenger was he supposedly referring to? Since the Quran doesn’t tell us, we need to go outside the Quran for the details. And since Shazbaz likes commentators note what the following Muslim expositors say about this mass confusion:
The account returns to that of al-Suddi. Then Gabriel came to take Moses to God. He approached on a horse, and al-Samiri saw him but did not know him. It is said that it was the horse of life. [Al-Samiri] said when he saw him, “Verily this is something momentous!” So he took some of the dust from the hoof of the horse. Then Moses set out, making Aaron his vice-regent over the Children of Israel, and promised to meet them in thirty nights, but God added to them ten. Aaron said to them: “O Children of Israel! Spoils are not permitted to you, and the ornaments of the Egyptians are spoils, so gather all of them together and dig a pit for them, burying all of them in it. When Moses returns, if he permits them for you, then you may take them. Otherwise, they are things you may not consume.” They assembled all the ornaments in that pit, and al-Samiri brought the handful of dust. He threw it [upon the pit] AND GOD BROUGHT FORTH FROM THE ORNAMENTS a corporeal calf of saffron color, and it gave forth a lowing sound.
The Israelites had counted the appointed time of Moses, they counted each night a day, and each day a day. When it was the twentieth day, the calf came forth. When they saw it, al-Samiri said to them: “This is your God and the God of Moses, but he has forgotten.” He said: “Moses left his God here and went looking for Him.” So they clung to the calf and worshiped it, for it could bellow and walk. Aaron said to them: “O Children of Israel! You are only being seduced with it” – meaning, you are only being tested with it, that is, the calf – “For lo! Your Lord is the Beneficent.” Aaron and those Israelites who were with him continued not to fight them, while Moses was off speaking with his God. When He spoke with him, He said: “What made you hasten from your people, O Moses!” He said: “They follow close upon my track. I hastened to You, my Lord, that You might be pleased.” He said: “Lo! We have tested your people in your absence, and al-Samiri has misled them.”
When He had related their tale to him, Moses, said, “O Lord! This al-Samiri ordered them to adopt the calf. Tell me, who breathed the soul into it?” The Lord said: “I DID.” Moses said: “THEN, MY LORD, YOU MISLED THEM.” (The History of Al-Tabari: The Children of Israel, translated by William M. Brinner [State University of New York Press (SUNY), 1991], Volume III, pp. 72-73; capital emphasis ours)
Surprise, surprise! It turns out that it was Shaz’s god who brought forth a calf from the ornaments that the Israelites threw in the pit, and who made the calf low in order to tempt Israel to sin. This is why l-Tabari quotes Moses as saying to Allah that he is the one who misled the people.
These examples further expose Shazbaz’s silly and stupid attempt of trying to deny that the Arabic word that is used in these verses, namely fitan, does not mean tempt. This shows that he has no clue how language works, since a word can mean various thing in various contexts, and the context of these passages CLEARLY, IRREFUTABLY PROVE that Allah was tempting people to sin and commit immorality.
Here is some more in case Shazbaz chooses to turn on his illiteracy monitor so as to ignore what his own sources teach. According to the Quran, Allah actually placed lust and evil within the soul of every person:
and inspired it to lewdness and godfearing! S. 91:8 Arberry
its sin and its piety! Palmer
And breathed into it its wickedness and its piety, Rodwell
Here is how Muhammad is reported to have exegeted this text:
Abu al-Aswad reported that ‘Imran b Husain asked him: What is your view, what the people do today in the world, and strive for, is it something decreed for them or preordained for them or will their fate in the Hereafter be determined by the fact that their Prophets brought them teaching which they did not act upon? I said: Of course, IT IS SOMETHING WHICH IS PREDETERMINED FOR THEM AND PREORDAINED FOR THEM. He (further) said: Then, would it not be an injustice (to punish them)? I felt greatly disturbed because of that, and said: Everything is created by Allah and lies in His Power. He would not be questioned as to what He does, but they would be questioned; thereupon he said to me: May Allah have mercy upon you, I did not mean to ask you but for testing your intelligence. Two men of the tribe of Muzaina came to Allah’s Messenger and said: Allah’s Messenger, what is your opinion that the people do in the world and strive for, is it something decreed for them, something preordained for them, and will their fate in the Hereafter be determined by the fact that their Prophets brought them teachings which they did not act upon, and thus they became deserving of punishment? Thereupon, he said: Of course, IT HAPPENS AS IT IS DECREED BY DESTINY AND PREORDAINED FOR THEM, AND THIS VIEW IS CONFIRMED BY THIS VERSE OF THE BOOK OF ALLAH, the Exalted and Glorious: “Consider the soul and Him Who made it perfect, THEN BREATHED INTO ITS SIN and its piety” (xci. 8). (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6406)
And:
(Then He showed it its Fujur and its Taqwa.) “He explained the good and the evil to it (the soul).” Mujahid, Qatadah, Ad-Dahhak and Ath-Thawri all said the same. Sa`id bin Jubayr said, “He gave him inspiration (to see what was) good and evil.” Ibn Zayd said, “He made its Fujur and its Taqwa inside of it.” Ibn Jarir recorded from Abul-Aswad Ad-Dili that he said, “`Imran bin Husayn said to me, `Do you think that what the people do, and what they strive for is a thing that is pre-ordained and predestined for them, or is it a thing which is only written after the Message comes to them from the Prophet, when there will be an evidence against them?’ I said, `Rather IT IS SOMETHING PREORDAINED UPON THEM.’ Then he said, `Is that an injustice?’ Then I became extremely frightened of him (due to what he was saying), and I said to him, `There is nothing except that He (Allah) created it and possesses it in His Hand. He is not asked about what He does, while they (His creation) will be asked.’ He (`Imran) then said, `May Allah guide you! I only asked you about that in order to inform you that a man from Muzaynah or Juhaynah tribe came to the Allah’s Messenger and asked him: “O Messenger of Allah! Do you consider the actions of mankind and their struggles to be preordained for them and written for them from Qadr, or something written for them only after the Message came to them from their Prophet, when there will be an evidence against them?” He (the Prophet ) replied…
<> So the man said, “Then what is the point of our actions?” The Prophet replied…
<>” Ahmad and Muslim both recorded this Hadith… (Tafsir Ibn Kathir; capital emphasis mine)
This also exposes Shaz’s boldfaced lie and deceit since his own sources claim that Allah is the one who creates people to do evil and commit immorality since he chooses who goes to hell or paradise. All these quotes prove that their going to paradise or hell HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR ACTIONS, BUT WITH ALLAH DECIDING BEFOREHAND TO SEND WHOMEVER HE WILLS TO HELL OR NOT.
Like I said, Muhammad’s god sounds more like the devil than the God worshiped by James.
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Separation of natures to the rescue: Only “Jesus the man” was tempted?
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Burhanuddin1
“Separation of natures to the rescue: Only “Jesus the man” was tempted?”
Where does it say jesus was tempted?
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‘Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, ….
Part-time incarnation of the HS too?
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Huh?
Once again our muslim bros prove that islam rots the brain and makes thinking haram. LOL!!
Still waiting for you guys to explain your infinite god’s 99 finite attributes. Is allah’s solitary leg infinite, or finite?
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Dude you are obsessed. And your comment is off topic. Luke says Jesus was tempted by the devil. James says God cannot be tempted. Ergo according to Luke Jesus was not God.
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Paul
” Luke says Jesus was tempted by the devil.”
It says that the devil tempted jesus – but was jesus tempted? No.
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So the devil didn’t even know he was God then, and couldn’t be tempted? What a waste of time!
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Paul Williams
“So the devil didn’t even know he was God then, and couldn’t be tempted? What a waste of time!”
Wut? Even the demons knew jesus was god – what are you talking about?
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Talk about “rotting the brain”.
“Isn’t it obvious that it’s disgraceful for a man to have long hair?” 1. Cor 11:14
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Burhanuddin1
“Talk about “rotting the brain”.”
“Isn’t it obvious that it’s disgraceful for a man to have long hair?” 1. Cor 11:14″
And? When having long hair is associated with terrible things, like polytheistic sacrifice and islamic jihadism, we can all agree that it is a disgraceful practice.
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In this case having long hair is associated with your Christ of Faith and condemnation of having long hair by a divinely inspired Apostle of that same Christ of Faith.
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Burhanuddin1
“In this case having long hair is associated with your Christ of Faith and condemnation of having long hair by a divinely inspired Apostle of that same Christ of Faith.”
Where does it say jesus had long hair? Or that the god of the bible has one finite leg?
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I’m happy to find out your Christ of faith doesn’t have long hair. Any other missionaries like to join in?
Back to the subject:
The devil knows “Jesus is God”? The devil also knows “God cannot be tempted”?
Jesus also knows that the devil knows?
The alleged author “Luke” as a truly orthodox trinitarian also knows that both the devil and Jesus know that?
So what’s the point of this little absurd charade, if you are not tempted by separating Jesus’ natures?
I’m sure you are not as a firm and orthodox trinitarian?
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Burhanaddin 1
“The devil knows “Jesus is God”? The devil also knows “God cannot be tempted”?
Jesus also knows that the devil knows?”
What is your problem here? Jesus was not tempted by the sins of the flesh, nor the sins of the mind and spirit, if your god doesn’t know that, how is that a problem for christianity? Maybe your god was feeling optimistic that day?
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Your attempts at creative theology are not very convincing. The problems are manyfold as pointed out.
The inspired trinitarian authors of “Luke” and “James” obviously had no clue of the implications of their writings for trinitarian Christology.
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Burhanuddin1
“Your attempts at creative theology are not very convincing. The problems are manyfold as pointed out.
The inspired trinitarian authors of “Luke” and “James” obviously had no clue of the implications of their writings for trinitarian Christology.”
Actually, no one has made a point. WHat exactly is your issue here? It seems as though you guys are having a problem that satan doesn’t know god – well that’s part of what makes him satan.
Incidentally, it is worth mentioning that islamic doctrine insists that muslims cannot know god either – just like satan cannot know god. Now that is a problem.
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It’s odd that the demons are portrayed in Marks gospel as knowing who Jesus is even when his disciples do not know. So you think demons know but Satan doesn’t?
Laughable
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Paul
“It’s odd that the demons are portrayed in Marks gospel as knowing who Jesus is even when his disciples do not know. So you think demons know but Satan doesn’t?
Laughable”
Christian don’t spend their time trying to gauge the mind and thoughts of satan. What he does or doesn’t know isn’t our concern – we don’t base our beliefs about god on what satan says about him.
Your point here is silly because one would have to ask why would satan rebel in the first place if he knows that he can’t defeat god – maybe muslims are taught to understand satan, christians are not. That’s what is laughable.
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You are running away from the issues. The gospels portray the Devils as knowing full well who Jesus is. Yet you are asking me to believe that the chief devil has no idea!
Dude – more intelligent reflection required.
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D seems to be suffering from amnesia
At 9:41 am he commented:
“Wut? Even the demons knew jesus was god – what are you talking about?”
Yes he is running away from the issues. Was “Luke” – being divinely inspired – not aware of the christological dilemma he was creating?
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D -…………….. “Jesus was *never* tempted”
Luke 4:1-13 – “where for forty days he *was*tempted”
Jesus a human being was led to the wilderness to be tested or be tempted because he had the natural human propensity to commit sin… no Jesus did not succumb to sin when he was tempted… you know why? ☺
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Omar
“Luke 4:1-13 – “where for forty days he *was*tempted”
Jesus a human being was led to the wilderness to be tested or be tempted because he had the natural human propensity to commit sin… no Jesus did not succumb to sin when he was tempted… you know why? ☺”
Yes, he was tempted by the god of islam, but he was never tempted. That’s what I said. And he was sinless.
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lol…
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Omar
“lol…”
LOL!!!
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One thing is clear from James is that 1:13 that God can not be tempted. And that is the central message. We all know from Bible that Satan tried to tempt Jesus by giving him the kingdoms of the world, meaning giving him power and authority and also asked to worship him if he wants to get the kingdoms of heaven. Now whether Jesus submit to that evil whispers is another issue. Even Righteous person never submits to Satanic whispers.The question is that God cannot be tempted. Now if Jesus indeed was God, how could Satan even try to command Jesus to worship him! How could Satan even have tried to offer Jesus the kingdoms of the earth! Everything belongs to God, the whole earth belongs to God, and so does every other planet. The whole universe belongs to God! How could Satan even try such an act if Jesus was God?The reason why Satan tried to tempt Jesus to worship him is because Jesus is not God. Because Satan would never ever make such a command, and secondly Satan would never make an offer of giving Jesus all the kingdoms of the world, because he would already know all things belong to God! This proves without a shadow of a doubt that Jesus is not God, but it shows he is no more than a prophet, because Satan would try to tempt great prophets in that way, to try and promise them the world, if they worship him instead of God. That is the ultimate success for Satan, to make a great prophet such as Jesus to leave God and to worship him. Also the fact that Satan offers Jesus all the kingdoms is further proof that he is not God because a mere man, a prophet, would always be tempted greatly if he could have all the kingdoms of this planet.What use would it be to offer God all the kingdoms of the earth when he owns them all anyway! It makes no sense.
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Hebrews 4:15 – Jesus was tempted, but without sin; that is, He never gave into the temptation. To be tempted is not sin.
Jesus as a human was tempted, but the divine nature in Him was not tempted (per James 1:13).
“For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.” Hebrews 4:15
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Whether Jesus submit to that evil whispers or not is another issue. Even many Righteous persons never submits to Satanic whispers.We all saw from the way Satan tried to tempt Jesus that Jesus could not possibly be God for the way Satan tried to tempt him, and the things he offered him. God is in no need for those things Satan offered him, so it makes no sense to offer him things he already has.The question is that God cannot be tempted.And here we see Jesus has been tempted.Hence He is not God.
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Now if Jesus indeed was God, how could Satan even try to command Jesus to worship him! How could Satan even have tried to offer Jesus the kingdoms of the earth!
Because Jesus was also man. He is one person with 2 natures: 100 % God and 100 % man.
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Very nice, if Jesus was fully man,and fully God as you Christians claim, so it would still be useless and senseless for Satan to try and tempt Jesus in this way, because ultimately he was still tempting God. Another point is that even if Jesus was fully man, didn’t he not know he was also God? Of course he knew he was God, so that would still play in his mind, I am God, so it still makes no sense for Satan trying to tempt him, even if he is fully man, because he knows he is also God, and Satan knows he knows that he is God, so he still wouldn’t have tried to tempt him the way he did. I find this quite absurd.
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Shaaz
Those are lousy objections – why would satan rebel against god at all? Christians don’t acquaint themselves with the mind of satan like muslims seem to do. Obviously, muslims on this blog know how satan thinks and why he does what he does – christians don’t concern themselves with the actions and thoughts of satan.
Why do you?
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I understand that when something uncomfortable comes forth you just run away and say that is not our concern. Faith in Jesus is everything. Well, Mr.D there’s is something called logic and reason. We Muslims like to apply reason and logic. Because to Us it sounds absurd that somebody is following a Book wherein says that GOD -the Supreme has been tempted by His creation SATAN whom he banished from Garden of Eden and telling God to worship him(Satan). This is a matter of concern and should be a matter of concern for all. As following something blindly is dangerous.
I don’t know why it’s not a matter of concern for you.
Paul’s post is an eye opener for innocent Christians who are following Bible. And this post is not for Blind Faith Christians & those Christians who are making money by preaching Christianity. Because such christians are beyond repair.
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Shaaz
“I understand that when something uncomfortable comes forth you just run away and say that is not our concern. Faith in Jesus is everything. Well, Mr.D there’s is something called logic and reason. We Muslims like to apply reason and logic. ”
I said that the thoughts and mind of satan are not the concern of christians – we don’t claim to know how satan thinks and behaves. Only his followers can know that – and you claim to know what he thinks and how he behaves.
“Because to Us it sounds absurd that somebody is following a Book wherein says that GOD -the Supreme has been tempted by His creation SATAN whom he banished from Garden of Eden and telling God to worship him(Satan). ”
But you don’t realize how stupid it sounds that you find it difficult to believe that satan would try to tempt god even though you agree that satan has tried to challenge god’s throne. That’s called cognitive dissonance – or it might be just plain old stupidity.
“Paul’s post is an eye opener for innocent Christians who are following Bible.”
LOL!!
Actually, no. It’s an eye-roller for christians who are laughing at your guys’ logical contortions.
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You said ,” I said that the thoughts and mind of satan are not the concern of christians – we don’t claim to know how satan thinks and behaves. Only his followers can know that – and you claim to know what he thinks and how he behaves.”
My Response : That’s not my concern. My concern is How can Jesus be God when in the Bible itself it’s been said GOD cannot be tempted. Let alone Qur’an.
Again You said : “But you don’t realize how stupid it sounds that you find it difficult to believe that satan would try to tempt god even though you agree that satan has tried to challenge god’s throne. That’s called cognitive dissonance – or it might be just plain old stupidity.”
Where I said Satan challenged for God’s throne. Don’t put the words into my mouth that I haven’t uttered! All am doing is putting across logical questions that needs to be answered.
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God allowed Satan to come before Him in Job chapters 1-2. But God could destroy Satan by one thought – “be destroyed”, and it would happen. But for some reason, God in His wisdom and Sovereignty, has allowed Satan to exist.
What is the Islamic explanation as to why Allah allows Satan to exist and why did Allah create Satan?
Was Satan a good angel first and then fell because of pride/arrogance/rebellion? (as in Ezekiel 28:12-17 – the evil spirit behind the king of Tyre – since the cherub, angel was in the garden of Eden, it could not be only about the human king of Tyre) or did Allah created Satan/Iblis from the beginning as a Jinn who is evil from beginning from smokeless fire?
Does that mean that Allah created evil from the beginning, since He created Iblis/Satan as is?
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Reply to Ken:
After a long time I came across a sensible Question. Thanks Ken for asking me. We should learn through asking. Anyway, coming to your question. Now,Iblis – may Allah curse him – is one of the jinn. As you know Jinn is just another creation like Humans who can obey and disobey. So Iblis He was not an angel for a single day, not even for an instant. The angels were created noble; they never disobey Allah when He commands them to do something and they do what they are commanded. The fact that Iblis is not one of the angels means that he is not compelled to obey Allah. He has freedom of will just as we humans do. This is clearly stated in the Quranic texts which indicate that Iblis is one of the jinn and not one of the angels. Just read Qur’an 18:50.
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Shaaz: you are welcome! and thanks for your answer.
I have more questions. In Christianity humans were innocent until they sinned, and the first sin had to come from outside of them – that is, the devil had to tempt them to sin, and they gave in. (Genesis 3:1-8 – Satan was using a snake/serpent; Revelation 12:9 – the serpent/dragon is identified as Satan. )
Did sin have to come from outside the humans in order to get them to sin, in Islamic theology?
I remember the Qur’an says that Allah commanded Iblis to bow down to Adam, but he would not; so he was cast out. Did he become evil then?
When did Adam and Eve sin and how did they sin?
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The bible says that God was indeed tempted by the Israelites.
Exodus 17 v 7:
King James Bible
And he called the name of the place Massah, and Meribah, because of the chiding of the children of Israel, and because they tempted the LORD, saying, Is the LORD among us, or not?
Deuteronomy 6 v 16:
16 Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah.
The difference is perhaps that God cannot be tempted with EVIL as James says.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
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Hebrews 4:15 means Jesus, in His humanity was tempted to sin; but He was sinless, and did not give into it, and in fact had no sinful nature. He had basic needs for food, sleep, rest, water, etc. but He did not give into a sinful thought or act or motive. He was pure and without sin.
The OT quotes from Psalm 95 seem to me to mean “tested” and “tried” (NASB).
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Ken Temple
You said;
Ken Temple
June 3, 2016 • 8:47 pm
Hebrews 4:15 means Jesus, in His humanity was tempted to sin; but He was sinless, and did not give into it, and in fact had no sinful nature. He had basic needs for food, sleep, rest, water, etc. but He did not give into a sinful thought or act or motive. He was pure and without sin.
The OT quotes from Psalm 95 seem to me to mean “tested” and “tried” (NASB).
I say;
Jesus is 100% man and 100% God. So both natures was tempted by Satan. How will not separate the natures when worshiping Jesus but separate them when Satan was tempting them? Double standard. Why will the divine nature in Jesus forgave sins but the divine nature in Jesus does not know the hour? double standards.
You blame Sai Baba and Emperor Haile Selaissie as incarnated Gods but to have an incarnated God and keep cheating or people with his changing percentages. It is not good for God to cheat like that. You are either God or man.
Thanks.
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Ken, This post is not talking about whether Jesus committing Sin or not. The post is on bait and temptation.The point is satan tempted God showed he did not view Jesus as God because satan would never ask God to worship him, nor would he make such silly offers to God.The acts carried out by satan did show he clearly viewed Jesus as a man ONLY, what he offered to Jesus were things MEN would love, such as power,glory etc. That is what satan offered Jesus, satan would not make such silly actions on the true God.
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Shaaz
“The point is satan tempted God showed he did not view Jesus as God because satan would never ask God to worship him, nor would he make such silly offers to God.”
Again, muslim expertise on how satan’s mind works is extremely disturbing. Try to think, my friend. If this is your reasoning, then you have to ask why would satan rebel against god at all?
You guys know all about how satan thinks – your god must be close to it.
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Mr.D
We like to apply logic and reason that’s why We think from every angle. Anyway all Your above answers seems to be emotional and illogical.
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D
You said;
D
June 3, 2016 • 12:01 pm
Paul
“It’s odd that the demons are portrayed in Marks gospel as knowing who Jesus is even when his disciples do not know. So you think demons know but Satan doesn’t?
Laughable”
Christian don’t spend their time trying to gauge the mind and thoughts of satan. What he does or doesn’t know isn’t our concern – we don’t base our beliefs about god on what satan says about him.
I say;
But Christians based their beliefs on what others i.e. Jews the enemies of Christ says about him. Jews do not believe Jesus Christ is God. Why don’t you believe in that? Their believe is sometimes not necessary for you Christians to base your religion on. From the horses own mouth. Jesus never said he is God and must be worshiped.
Ken Temple
You said;
Ken Temple
June 3, 2016 • 5:41 pm
Now if Jesus indeed was God, how could Satan even try to command Jesus to worship him! How could Satan even have tried to offer Jesus the kingdoms of the earth!
Because Jesus was also man. He is one person with 2 natures: 100 % God and 100 % man
I say;
That’s why we have Emperor Haile Selaissie, Sai Baba and other God men who are 100% God and 100% men to fit Jesus Christ’s type of hybrid creatures.
Thanks.
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Shaaz
Welcome to bloggingtheology my brother. We feel your presence with your Good understanding of English Language to convey the truth in Islam. May Allah reward you and all of us including the Christians with His Mercy and grace.
Hope you stay at the bloggintheology for ever. Ameen
JazakAllah Khairan.
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D
You said;
D
June 4, 2016 • 8:36 am
Shaaz
“The point is satan tempted God showed he did not view Jesus as God because satan would never ask God to worship him, nor would he make such silly offers to God.”
Again, muslim expertise on how satan’s mind works is extremely disturbing. Try to think, my friend. If this is your reasoning, then you have to ask why would satan rebel against god at all?
You guys know all about how satan thinks – your god must be close to it.
I say;
Mr. D. Do not change words as Christians will always do like changing die to “cease to exist”. Dr. James White will initiate and change words and say “death does not mean cease to exist” and most Christian apologetics will start to copy him. The thing is whatever death means God does not die and Jesus died so Jesus is not God.
Back to topic. REBEL does not mean TEMPT, REBEL does not mean TEMPT. Is that clear to you now? Please do not change words, phrase, sentence, meanings etc. I already said you do not understand English Language and you are proving me right by your repeated ignorance.
Ken Temple will not say what you said because he understand English Language.
I always research and bring dictionary definitions to prove Christians wrong. I will leave this research for you to do as a practice research, so that next time you will research before responding.
o
Now, research on REBEL and TEMPT and you will know that they are not the same. So many creatures can rebel against God but they cannot tempt Him.
In the Quran, Satan’s pride, jealousy, arrogance etc. makes him disobey God’s command to bow down to Adam thinking He(Satan) was above Adam and so did not follow God’s command. In the Quran when God became angry about Satan and condemned Satan to a greater punishment, satan’s knows his pride and arrogance has doomed him so he his plead to God is to allow him get more followers from God creation to his(Satan’s) doomed day.
Satan did ask God to allow him to get more people to doom. Allah said He will not allow Satan to doom His creation and He will guide them except those who intentionally do not follow God’s command like Satan did. That is why no one can die for anyone’s sins except one has to follow Gods command and sincerely repent when he sins.
Satan is pretty much on the loose trying to influence people sin and the death and blood of Jesus could not stop him as he(satan) was before trying to get more people to doom. May Allah guide us to Himself and away from satan.
Quran 35:6
Sahih International:
Indeed, Satan is an enemy to you; so take him as an enemy. He only invites his party to be among the companions of the Blaze.
Thanks.
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Hello Intellect 🙂
Thanks for back up. I am new on this blog. I find Christians here quite emotional and not logical. They don’t know that they are arguing and debating with Muslims who doesn’t take their Holy Bible as 100% word of God. So Bible says this and Bible says that won’t help. At least with me it won’t help as am very nitpicking over tiny details.
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Intellect
“Now, research on REBEL and TEMPT and you will know that they are not the same. So many creatures can rebel against God but they cannot tempt Him.”
LOL!!! You’re moving the goalposts, my old foolish friend! The argument is that satan would not logically try to tempt god – if true then logically he would not rebel against god either.
You guys don’t get it! LOL!!!!!
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Hey Intellect, take these clowns out as am going offline due to RAMADAN.
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Patrice, don’t bother since I just clowned Shaz and exposed him for being the biggest clown among you all since he and his arguments are both a joke. So enjoy my pwnage of your fellow circus performing Muhammadan!
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D
You said;
D
June 4, 2016 • 11:01 am
Intellect
“Now, research on REBEL and TEMPT and you will know that they are not the same. So many creatures can rebel against God but they cannot tempt Him.”
LOL!!! You’re moving the goalposts, my old foolish friend! The argument is that satan would not logically try to tempt god – if true then logically he would not rebel against god either.
You guys don’t get it! LOL!!!!!
I say;
What satan did was because of his pride, arrogance, choice and freewill, he disobeyed God and did not follow God’s command. People follow satan to disobey God’s command even if they see the truth that Jesus is not God, they will still use their pride, arrogance, choice and freewill to follow the whispers of satan to worship Jesus.
Are we and satan created with freewill, choice, arrogance, pride etc. to disobey God? Yes. Any Christian will agree to this. And that is what Satan did, he disobeyed God and he can do that if he wish and people do that everyday. Why trying to drag this simple fact into argument?
Can anyone tempt to give God all the Kingdoms he already has? No. Only foolish person will do that. Satan is intelligent and knows God has all the Kingdoms and will not try to tempt God.
Thanks.
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Shaaz wrote:
Ken, This post is not talking about whether Jesus committing Sin or not. The post is on bait and temptation.
It includes both, since Paul W. put Luke 4:1-13 and James 1:13 at top. It necessarily also has to include Hebrews 4:15, because Hebrews 4:15 explains in one sentence what Luke 4:1-13 was all about.
Read all of Luke 4:1-13 – the devil said, “If you are the Son of God . . . ” = “If you are by nature God, the same nature as the Father, etc. then turn the stones to bread, etc.”
The Divine nature is not tempted by evil, as James 1:13 says; but the Son became flesh, human, and was tempted (felt the initial pull), but did not give into any sin, not in motive, thought or action – Hebrews 4:15.
Jesus fought temptation by quoting Scripture – read the rest of Luke 4:1-13.
“Thus is it written . . . ”
“be gone, Satan, for it is written . . . ”
We fight temptation by quoting Scripture and relying on the power of the Holy Spirit – so Jesus as human was the best model for us on how to fight temptation.
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Ken Temple
You said;
We fight temptation by quoting Scripture and relying on the power of the Holy Spirit – so Jesus as human was the best model for us on how to fight temptation.
I say;
No it is Emperor Haile Selaissie, Sai Baba and the rest God-Men as God – Men as humans the best model for us on how to fight temptation.
Thanks
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God allowed Satan to come before Him in Job chapters 1-2. But God could destroy Satan by one thought – “be destroyed”, and it would happen. But for some reason, God in His wisdom and Sovereignty, has allowed Satan to exist.
What is the Islamic explanation as to why Allah allows Satan to exist and why did Allah create Satan?
Was Satan a good angel first and then fell because of pride/arrogance/rebellion? (as in Ezekiel 28:12-17 – the evil spirit behind the king of Tyre – since the cherub, angel was in the garden of Eden, it could not be only about the human king of Tyre)
or did Allah created Satan/Iblis from the beginning as a Jinn who is evil from beginning from smokeless fire?
Does that mean that Allah created evil from the beginning, since He created Iblis/Satan as is?
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Ken Temple
You said;
or did Allah created Satan/Iblis from the beginning as a Jinn who is evil from beginning from smokeless fire?l
Does that mean that Allah created evil from the beginning, since He created Iblis/Satan as is?
I say;
According to Islam, angels always obey a obey God and so do not sin. Satan is a Jinn who like humans has free will, choice, arrogance, pride etc. to disobey God or not. Like humans ame Jinns are righteous and others are evil.
Thanks.
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Did Allah created evil?
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Ken Temple
You said;
Ken Temple
June 5, 2016 • 3:23 am
Did Allah created evil?
I say;
Did Jesus as God created evil?
e·vil.
[ˈēvəl]
ADJECTIVE
1.profoundly immoral and malevolent:
“his evil deeds” ·
“no man is so evil as to be beyond redemption”
synonyms: wicked · bad · wrong · immoral · sinful · foul · vile ·
dishonorable · corrupt · iniquitous · depraved · reprobate · villainous · nefarious · vicious · malicious · malevolent · sinister · demonic · devilish · diabolical · fiendish · dark · monstrous · shocking · despicable · atrocious · heinous · odious · contemptible · horrible · execrable · lowdown · dirty
NOUN
1.profound immorality, wickedness, and depravity, especially when regarded as a supernatural force:
“the world is stalked by relentless evil” ·
“good and evil in eternal opposition”
synonyms: wickedness · bad · badness · wrongdoing · sin · ill ·
immorality · vice · iniquity · degeneracy · corruption · depravity · villainy · nefariousness · malevolence · devil · turpitude
Source: https://www.bing.com/search?q=what+is+evil&form=EDGENT&qs=PF&cvid=49ee392b407944a29610e0c9254f031e&pq=what%20is%20evil
Thanks.
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Ken Temple
As a friend I know you are intelligent and learned but you are confused and arrogant when it comes to accepting the truth.
Evil is not a being. Evil is actions of some beings/persons who do not follow God’s command. Righteous on the other hand is also actions of an individual who is good and follow the right way and also God’s command.
So, the ask a question like “Did Allah created evil”? by you puts you in the group Mr. D. who do not understand English very well. I always distinguish you and D but now you are deliberately bringing yourself down as an is it arrogant, uneducated or deliberately distorting facts.
Did Jesus(God) created evil? Do not bring “as God” or “as Man” card to cheat. If so, then we must accept Emperor Haile Selaissie, Sai Baba etc. as also God-Men.
Thanks.
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I think is evil is something deeper than wrong actions; it starts in evil motives and thoughts – selfishness, pride, jealousy, lust, greed, bitterness, rancor, spite, etc.
But I agree with you if you “mean evil is not a being” – if you mean “evil is not a substance” ( like gravity or glue or radiation). Evil is the absence of good.
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Ken Temple
According to Islam, Satan was righteous but because of his pride, arrogance, freewill, choice he disobeyed God and started his evil ways. Knowing he chose his own doom, he pleaded with God to allow him get followers to doom. Allah said, no He will guide His creations to Himself except those who will not hear His(Allah’s) commands, guidance to righteousness and chose to follow satan.
May Allah guide us to the right path. The path of those follow His ways not the path of those who are astray. Ameen.
Muslims recite this so many times everyday. And we always seek refuge to the only one God of Abraham who is alone without any other 2 persons to make Him 3.
The Bible says, the God of Abraham is one, only and alone.
Thanks.
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The easiest way out for me is to claim that James is just talking about tempting God with evil. He is not saying that God cannot be tempted in any way under any circumstances.
You could say that the temptations only make sense if Jesus has the divine power to meet Satan’s challenge. If Jesus doesn’t have this power Satan could not tempt him to use it. If Satan doesn’t believe that Jesus is the unique Son of God he wouldn’t try and make him prove it. Satan knows that the Father would not suffer his Son to harm himself.
So these things can prove the opposite of what Muslims want to prove from them.
Also Satan hasn’t read the book of James has he? It wasn’t written yet.
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madmanna
You said;
You could say that the temptations only make sense if Jesus has the divine power to meet Satan’s challenge
I say;
Jesus does not have the divine power so he is not God. Which God is that who do not have divine power? Do not bring me the God -Man cheating. We do not believe that and if you force us to believe, then we have to believe all God-Men like Emperor Haile Selaissie, Sai Baba and the rest.
You agreed with me some time ago that if God is One and possess all His attributes, then no one can possess all His attributes.
Thanks.
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To turn stones in to bread was not evil for the Son of God. To rule over the kingdoms of the world was not evil for the Son of God. To feel the protecting love of his Father was not evil for the Son of God. However, the way that the devil wanted him to take to have all these things was not the will of God.
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Brother D, let me help you prove that Allah tempts people to do evil. Enjoy!
Do not covet what We have granted myriads of people of the pomp and glitter of this world to tempt them. The means your Lord has given you are better far and more enduring. S. 20:131 Ahmed Ali
Every soul will know the taste of death. WE TEMPT YOU WITH EVIL and with good as a trial; and to Us you will return. S. 21:35 Ahmed Ali
In this next case, Allah claims to have been the one who tempted Israel to worship the golden calf through the agency of the Samaritan:
Said He, ‘We have tempted thy people since thou didst leave them. The Samaritan has misled them into error.’ S. 20:85 Arberry
In this verse, Allah tempted the Israelites to break the sabbath by commanding the fish to appear to them on top of the water so as to provoke the Israelites to fish and therefore do work:
Ask them about the town which overlooked the sea and what befell its people when they broke the Sabbath. On their Sabbath the fish appeared before them floating on the water, but on week–days they never came near them. Thus did We tempt them because they had done wrong. S. 7:163 N. J. Dawood
It gets a lot worse for these Muslims. The Quran affirms that Allah makes immorality and evil alluring and pleasant to people:
Revile not ye those whom they call upon besides God, lest they out of spite revile God in their ignorance. Thus have We made alluring to each people its own doings. In the end will they return to their Lord, and We shall then tell them the truth of all that they did. S. 6:108 Y. Ali
Lo! as for those who believe not in the Hereafter, We have made their works fairseeming unto them so that they are all astray. S. 27:4
But that’s not at all. According to some of the so-called sound ahadith, Muhammad reportedly taught that Allah has actually predetermined the amount of adultery a person must necessarily commit:
Narrated Ibn ‘Abbas:
I did not see anything so resembling minor sins as what Abu Huraira said from the Prophet, who said, “Allah has written for the son of Adam his INEVITABLE share of adultery whether he is aware of it or not: The adultery of the eye is the looking (at something which is sinful to look at), and the adultery of the tongue is to utter (what it is unlawful to utter), and the innerself wishes and longs for (adultery) and the private parts turn that into reality or refrain from submitting to the temptation.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 77, Number 609)
Verily Allah has fixed the very portion of adultery which a man will indulge in, and which he OF NECESSITY MUST COMMIT (or there would be no escape from it). (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6421; see also Number 6422)
Therefore, according to the very passage that Paul cited, i.e. James 1:13, Allah is a false god since he tempts people with evil and lust, something which the true God never does or can do.
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Sam you do realize that the Bible teaches all that you say the Qur’an does and more?
Take for example Pauls Letter to the Romans where God furthers the unbelief of those who reject faith (cf Romans 1) or God hardening Pharoahs heart to reject Moses’ plea to free the Jews in Exodus and most importantly what about allowing Satan to tempt Job through his pain and suffering?
It seems that the pot is calling the kettle black. In truth the Qur’an acknowledges that God tests the believers in certain ways but does no more than one can bear and always gives man free will to choose how to respond. Whereas it seems in said bible stories God INTENTIONALLY prevents people from choosing faith.
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Let’s expose “Paul’s Mischievious Pal”.
First of all none of the famous Translator be it Saheeh International, Pickthall, Yusuf Ali, and Khan-Hilali
used the word TEMPT. Let’s go to Arabic now. The verb form i.e, TEMPT is translated as ‘JAZB’,JARB, HASH,GAWA,IKHTABAR. But sadly none of this word is there in the verse quoted.
Now let’s deal verse by verse:
#21:35- the word here is WA’NABLUKUM which means And We test you. This verse is saying and I quote 2 tafsirs here,
Ibn Kathir says: (and We shall test you with evil and with good by way of trial. ) Meaning, “We shall test you, sometimes with difficulties and sometimes with ease, to see who will give thanks and who will be ungrateful, who will have patience and who will despair.”
Maulana Mawdudi says in Tafheem-ul-Qur’an: That is, Allah is always putting human beings to test and trial both through adversity and affluence. This is to judge whether prosperity makes them proud, cruel and slaves of their lusts or they become grateful to Allah. On the other hand, He inflicts adversity upon them in order to see whether they remain within the prescribed and lawful limits or become low-spirited and down-hearted. A sensible person therefore should not be deluded by prosperity and adversity, but should keep their trial element in view and try to pass through it gracefully.
Mufti Shafi Usmani says in Maariful Qur’an : It means man is tested both by good things and bad: bad includes unpleasant things like illness , grief, pain, poverty, Good means good health happiness, comfort, etc. Man is subjected to such things to test them whether He is patient and thankful in the circumstances or not.
#20:85 – Ibn Kathir says that , Allah informs His Prophet, Musa, of what happened to the Children of Israel after he left them, and their deification of the calf that As-Samiri had made for them.
So again Paul’s Mischievious Pal has misinterpreted the entire verse.
#7:163- the word here is NABLUHUM. Which is translated as “Test you”. The jews first broke the sabbath and despite God’s command they went for that which is forbidden.Men are tested by God in a variety of ways. When a person or group of people begin to turn away from God and incline themselves towards disobedience, God provides abundant opportunities for them to disobey. This is done in order that the full potential for disobedience, which had remained hidden because of lack of such an opportunity, might come to the surface.This exactly happened to the sabbath brokers.
Anyway LIFE is a test. Allah tells us that we will be tested. He also makes it clear to us what is expected from us when we undergo these trials and what our reward will be if we are successful.
Next Paul’s mischievious Pal quoted 6:108 and 27:4.
First of all, the Qur’an makes it very clear that everyone has free will and that it is by the person’s free will he commits sins and not by Allah’s influence [Read Qur’an 16:33-34, 18:29, 25:57, 45:22]
As I said before,LIFE is a test. Allah tells us that we will be tested. Men are tested by God in a variety of ways. When a person or group of people begin to turn away from God and incline themselves towards disobedience, God provides abundant opportunities for them to disobey. This is done in order that the full potential for disobedience, which had remained hidden because of lack of such an opportunity, might come to the surface. The reason why Allah is misguiding them is because they themselves are corrupted and don’t want to be in a relationship with Allah in the first place. And the person those who are misguided are those who are defiantly disobedient. Read Qur’an 2:26, 14;27,61:5.
ALLAH ONLY GUIDE THOSE WHO STRIVE IN THE WAY OF ALLAH.Read Qur’an 29:69
Allah makes the deeds of the disbelievers alluring to them because those are defiantly disobedient and don’t want to strive for having a relationship with Allah. So it is their fault, not Allah’s.
AND ALLAH DOESN’T COMMAND IMMORALITY. Go read Qur’an 7:28,16:90.
Let me turn the tables now.Some people have been tempted by God of Bible.
God tempted Abraham to kill his son Isaac for a burnt offering.God did tempt Abraham … And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac … and offer him there for a burnt offering. Genesis 22:1
And Jesus says we should pray that God will not tempt us. (Which wouldn’t be necessary if God never tempts anyone.)And lead us not into temptation. Matthew 6:13
Now if Paul’s mischievious pal come up and say oh no, actual translation is test not tempt. Then I ask why Paul’s pal not treat Qur’an the same way he treat Bible. This shows how hypocrite he is.
Finally, Paul’s mischievious Pal brought up two hadis related to Qadr or predestination.i MUST SAY Pauls’s mischievious Pal has patently absurd understanding of the text. time for full CAPS.
HOW CAN YOU BE SO INSOLENT AND SHAMELESS THAT YOU MAKE A LIE AND PUT A REFERENCE TO DIRECTLY EXPOSE YOUR OWN LIE?
The 2 hadis basically says that We the humans will be subjected to such things, as God knows everything.Immodesty, obscenity and any form of adutery be it of the eyes, ears, tongue or thoughts makes a hole in the heart. Through this hole leaks out eeman. While an inappropriate thought might occur to anybody, as the Satan is always trying to inspire people with these, yet it is the person who decides whether to entertain such ideas, discussion, temptation or turn away from them.Just because Allah might have predestined something evil to occur that doesn’t mean that this evil is ascribed to Him. This only means that He knew that this evil would occur, recorded that it would occur, allowed it to occur as He has given respite to Satan. That is all.God has sent Prophets and Guidance (i.e., Holy Books) so that People turn away from evil ways and practices and turn to God.Qur’an makes it very clear that everyone has free will and that it is by the person’s free will he commits sins and not by Allah’s influence [Read Qur’an 16:33-34, 18:29, 25:57, 45:22]
Concentrate on the last line of the two hadis. ” turn that into reality or refrain from submitting to the temptation” & ” may or may not put into effect”.
From this Hadis what We Muslims take home is , to avoid the major form of adultery, the more we stay away from the minor forms of it as stated in the hadis, i.e. the adultery of the eyes, tongue, ears and thoughts, the safer we will be. Avoid movies that glamorize the immoral. Avoid hearing obscene talk. If an indecent thought occurs to you, seek refuge with Allah (subhana wa ta’ala) from the Shaytaan and don’t entertain such thoughts.
Finally, who cares what Paul says in his epistles?? Paul is a corrupter of Jesus’ message. And your Bible is corrupted . So next time don’t bring your Bible to somehow disprove Qur’an and say Bible says this and that.We don’t give a damn about it. Qur’an is criterion not the Bible.
So at the end. Paul’s mischievious Pal has miserably failed.
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Hey Patrice, take these clowns out as am going offline due to RAMADAN.
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Let’s expose this illiterate Muhammadan named Shaz who chose to ignore what I wrote and decided to run to his expositors thinking they would save him from humiliation.
Let me repeat what he didn’t want to deal with:
Narrated Ibn ‘Abbas:
I did not see anything so resembling minor sins as what Abu Huraira said from the Prophet, who said, “Allah has written for the son of Adam his INEVITABLE share of adultery whether he is aware of it or not: The adultery of the eye is the looking (at something which is sinful to look at), and the adultery of the tongue is to utter (what it is unlawful to utter), and the innerself wishes and longs for (adultery) and the private parts turn that into reality or refrain from submitting to the temptation.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 77, Number 609)
Verily Allah HAS FIXED the very portion of adultery which a man will indulge in, and which he OF NECESSITY MUST COMMIT (or there would be no escape from it). (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6421; see also Number 6422)
Now which part of the hadith which says IT IS ALLAH WHO HAS DECREED, HAS FIXED THAT A MAN SHALL NECESSARILY AND INEVITABLY COMMIT ADULTERY WASN’T CLEAR?
He also conveniently ignored the fact THAT IT WAS ALLAH WHO COMMANDED FISH TO SURFACE ON TOP OF THE WATER ON THE SABBATH SO AS TO TEMPT THE JEWS TO SIN:
Ask them about the town which overlooked the sea and what befell its people when they broke the Sabbath. On their Sabbath the fish appeared before them floating on the water, but on week–days they never came near them. Thus DID WE TEMPT THEM because they had done wrong. S. 7:163 N. J. Dawood
AND IT WAS ALLAH WHO TEMPTED THE ISRAELITES TO WORSHIP THE CALF WHICH THE SAMARITAN MADE:
Said He, ‘WE HAVE TEMPTED thy people since thou didst leave them. The Samaritan has misled them into error.’ S. 20:85 Arberry
Now to further prove that it was Allah who used the Samaritan to tempt the Israelites to commit shirk, note what the following verses say happened after the calf jumped out of the fire:
And the people of Moses made, in his absence, out of their ornaments, a calf – a lifeless body, PRODUCING A LOWING SOUND. Did they not see that it spoke not to them, nor guided them to any way? They took it for worship and they were transgressors. And when they were smitten with remorse and saw that they had indeed gone astray, they said, ‘If our Lord have not mercy on us and forgive us, we shall surely be of the losers.’ And when Moses returned to his people, indignant and grieved, he said, ‘Evil is that which you did in my place in my absence. Did you hasten to devise a way for yourselves without waiting for the command of your Lord?’ And he put down the tablet and seized his brother by the head, dragging him towards himself. Aaron said, ‘Son of my mother, the people indeed deemed me weak, and were about to kill me. Therefore make not the enemies rejoice over my misfortune and place me not with the unjust people.’ S. 7:148-150 Sher Ali
There’s more to the confusion:
Moses) said: And what hast thou to say, O Samiri? He said: I perceived what they perceive not, so I seized a handful from the footsteps of the messenger, and then threw it in. Thus my soul commended to me. S. 20:95-96 Pickthall
A couple of good questions to ask are, who made this lifeless calf make a lowing sound? And what was it that as-Samiri grabbed a handful of, and what messenger was he supposedly referring to? Since the Quran doesn’t tell us, we need to go outside the Quran for the details. And since Shazbaz likes commentators note what the following Muslim expositors say about this mass confusion:
The account returns to that of al-Suddi. Then Gabriel came to take Moses to God. He approached on a horse, and al-Samiri saw him but did not know him. It is said that it was the horse of life. [Al-Samiri] said when he saw him, “Verily this is something momentous!” So he took some of the dust from the hoof of the horse. Then Moses set out, making Aaron his vice-regent over the Children of Israel, and promised to meet them in thirty nights, but God added to them ten. Aaron said to them: “O Children of Israel! Spoils are not permitted to you, and the ornaments of the Egyptians are spoils, so gather all of them together and dig a pit for them, burying all of them in it. When Moses returns, if he permits them for you, then you may take them. Otherwise, they are things you may not consume.” They assembled all the ornaments in that pit, and al-Samiri brought the handful of dust. He threw it [upon the pit] AND GOD BROUGHT FORTH FROM THE ORNAMENTS a corporeal calf of saffron color, and it gave forth a lowing sound.
The Israelites had counted the appointed time of Moses, they counted each night a day, and each day a day. When it was the twentieth day, the calf came forth. When they saw it, al-Samiri said to them: “This is your God and the God of Moses, but he has forgotten.” He said: “Moses left his God here and went looking for Him.” So they clung to the calf and worshiped it, for it could bellow and walk. Aaron said to them: “O Children of Israel! You are only being seduced with it” – meaning, you are only being tested with it, that is, the calf – “For lo! Your Lord is the Beneficent.” Aaron and those Israelites who were with him continued not to fight them, while Moses was off speaking with his God. When He spoke with him, He said: “What made you hasten from your people, O Moses!” He said: “They follow close upon my track. I hastened to You, my Lord, that You might be pleased.” He said: “Lo! We have tested your people in your absence, and al-Samiri has misled them.”
When He had related their tale to him, Moses, said, “O Lord! This al-Samiri ordered them to adopt the calf. Tell me, who breathed the soul into it?” The Lord said: “I DID.” Moses said: “THEN, MY LORD, YOU MISLED THEM.” (The History of Al-Tabari: The Children of Israel, translated by William M. Brinner [State University of New York Press (SUNY), 1991], Volume III, pp. 72-73; capital emphasis ours)
Surprise, surprise! It turns out that it was Shaz’s god who brought forth a calf from the ornaments that the Israelites threw in the pit, and who made the calf low in order to tempt Israel to sin. This is why l-Tabari quotes Moses as saying to Allah that he is the one who misled the people.
These examples further expose Shazbaz’s silly and stupid attempt of trying to deny that the Arabic word that is used in these verses, namely fitan, does not mean tempt. This shows that he has no clue how language works, since a word can mean various thing in various contexts, and the context of these passages CLEARLY, IRREFUTABLY PROVE that Allah was tempting people to sin and commit immorality.
Here is some more in case Shazbaz chooses to turn on his illiteracy monitor so as to ignore what his own sources teach. According to the Quran, Allah actually placed lust and evil within the soul of every person:
and inspired it to lewdness and godfearing! S. 91:8 Arberry
its sin and its piety! Palmer
And breathed into it its wickedness and its piety, Rodwell
Here is how Muhammad is reported to have exegeted this text:
Abu al-Aswad reported that ‘Imran b Husain asked him: What is your view, what the people do today in the world, and strive for, is it something decreed for them or preordained for them or will their fate in the Hereafter be determined by the fact that their Prophets brought them teaching which they did not act upon? I said: Of course, IT IS SOMETHING WHICH IS PREDETERMINED FOR THEM AND PREORDAINED FOR THEM. He (further) said: Then, would it not be an injustice (to punish them)? I felt greatly disturbed because of that, and said: Everything is created by Allah and lies in His Power. He would not be questioned as to what He does, but they would be questioned; thereupon he said to me: May Allah have mercy upon you, I did not mean to ask you but for testing your intelligence. Two men of the tribe of Muzaina came to Allah’s Messenger and said: Allah’s Messenger, what is your opinion that the people do in the world and strive for, is it something decreed for them, something preordained for them, and will their fate in the Hereafter be determined by the fact that their Prophets brought them teachings which they did not act upon, and thus they became deserving of punishment? Thereupon, he said: Of course, IT HAPPENS AS IT IS DECREED BY DESTINY AND PREORDAINED FOR THEM, AND THIS VIEW IS CONFIRMED BY THIS VERSE OF THE BOOK OF ALLAH, the Exalted and Glorious: “Consider the soul and Him Who made it perfect, THEN BREATHED INTO ITS SIN and its piety” (xci. 8). (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6406)
And:
(Then He showed it its Fujur and its Taqwa.) “He explained the good and the evil to it (the soul).” Mujahid, Qatadah, Ad-Dahhak and Ath-Thawri all said the same. Sa`id bin Jubayr said, “He gave him inspiration (to see what was) good and evil.” Ibn Zayd said, “He made its Fujur and its Taqwa inside of it.” Ibn Jarir recorded from Abul-Aswad Ad-Dili that he said, “`Imran bin Husayn said to me, `Do you think that what the people do, and what they strive for is a thing that is pre-ordained and predestined for them, or is it a thing which is only written after the Message comes to them from the Prophet, when there will be an evidence against them?’ I said, `Rather IT IS SOMETHING PREORDAINED UPON THEM.’ Then he said, `Is that an injustice?’ Then I became extremely frightened of him (due to what he was saying), and I said to him, `There is nothing except that He (Allah) created it and possesses it in His Hand. He is not asked about what He does, while they (His creation) will be asked.’ He (`Imran) then said, `May Allah guide you! I only asked you about that in order to inform you that a man from Muzaynah or Juhaynah tribe came to the Allah’s Messenger and asked him: “O Messenger of Allah! Do you consider the actions of mankind and their struggles to be preordained for them and written for them from Qadr, or something written for them only after the Message came to them from their Prophet, when there will be an evidence against them?” He (the Prophet ) replied…
So the man said, “Then what is the point of our actions?” The Prophet replied…
” Ahmad and Muslim both recorded this Hadith… (Tafsir Ibn Kathir; capital emphasis mine)
This also exposes Shaz’s boldfaced lie and deceit since his own sources claim that Allah is the one who creates people to do evil and commit immorality since he chooses who goes to hell or paradise. All these quotes prove that their going to paradise or hell HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR ACTIONS, BUT WITH ALLAH DECIDING BEFOREHAND TO SEND WHOMEVER HE WILLS TO HELL OR NOT.
Like I said, Muhammad’s god sounds more like the devil than the God worshiped by James.
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Patrice, do you realize that you can’t have your cake and eat it too? You can’t appeal to the Bible in one breath to prove your point and then throw it under the bus in the next breath when it refutes you and exposes Muhammad as a false prophet.
Moreover, you answered your own objection SINCE GOD HARDENS THE HEARTS OF THOSE WHO PERSIST IN UNBELIEF AND REBELLION. He never hardens the hearts of those who believe. This is unlike your god who, as the references I posted prove, chooses to make some for hell and then creates them to then do the evil and immorality of one destined for hell. Don’t believe? Here are some more quotes from your so called authentic sources.
We first start wit the Quran since the Islamic scripture testifies that if Allah wanted to he could have caused everyone to believe in Muhammad’s religion; but this is not what he desires since he has determined that many shall never believe in order that they may end up in hell. Hence, Allah chooses whomever he wills to save and forgive while misleading anyone he so desires:
Verily, those who disbelieve, it is the same to them whether you warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe. Allah has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearings, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be a great torment. S. 2:6-7
… Say: ‘The true guidance is God’s guidance — that anyone should be given the like of what you have been given, or dispute with you before your Lord.’ Say: ‘Surely bounty is in the hand of Allah; He gives it unto whomsoever He will; and Allah is All-embracing, All-knowing. He singles out for His mercy whom He will; Allah is of bounty abounding.’ S. 3:73-74
Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? God hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom God hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom God hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way. S. 4:88 Y. Ali
Say the Jews and Christians, ‘We are the sons of Allah, and His beloved ones.’ Say: ‘Why then does He chastise you for your sins? No; you are mortals, of His creating; He forgives whom He will, and He chastises whom He will.’ For to Allah belongs the kingdom of the heavens and of the earth, and all that is between them; to Him is the homecoming. S. 5:18
Knowest thou not that to Allah belongs the kingdom of the heavens and the earth? He chastises whom He will, and forgives whom He will; and Allah is powerful over everything… Whomsoever Allah desires to tempt, thou cannot avail him anything with Allah. Those are they whose hearts Allah desires not to purify; for them is degradation in this world; and in the world to come awaits them a mighty chastisement; S. 5:40-41
And if their turning away is distressful for thee, why, if thou canst seek out a hole in the earth, or a ladder in heaven, to bring them some sign but had God willed, He would have gathered them to the guidance; so be not thou one of the ignorant. S. 6:35
With Allah is the argument that reaches home: if it had been His will, He could indeed have guided you all. S. 6:149
Had Allah willed, they had not been idolatrous. We have not set thee as a keeper over them, nor art thou responsible for them. S. 6:107 Pickthall
And We never sent a messenger save with the language of his folk, that he might make (the message) clear for them. Then Allah sendeth whom He will astray, and guideth whom He will. He is the Mighty, the Wise. S. 14:4
Whomsoever Allah guides, he is the guided one, and whomsoever He sends astray, those! They are the losers. And surely, We have created many of the jinns and mankind for Hell. They have hearts wherewith they understand not, they have eyes wherewith they see not, and they have ears wherewith they hear not (the truth). They are like cattle, nay even more astray; those! They are the heedless ones. S. 7:178-179 Hilali-Khan
And upon Allah is the responsibility to explain the Straight Path, but there are ways that turn aside. And had He willed, He would have guided you all. S. 16:9
And had Allah willed, He could have made you (all) one nation, but He sends astray whom He wills and guides whom He wills. But you shall certainly be called to account for what you used to do. S. 16:93 Hilali-Khan
Verily! You (O Muhammad) guide not whom you like, but Allah guides whom He wills. And He knows best those who are the guided. S. 28:56
If We had so willed, We could have given every soul its guidance; but now My Word is realized – ‘Assuredly I shall fill Gehenna with jinn and men all together.’ So now taste, for that you forgot the encounter of this your day! We indeed have forgotten you. Taste the chastisement of eternity for that you were doing!’ S. 32:13-14
If Allah had willed, He would have made them one nation; but He admits whomsoever He will into His mercy, and the evildoers shall have neither protector nor helper… Whatever affliction may visit you is for what your own hands have earned; and He pardons much. You are not able to frustrate Him in the earth; and, apart from Allah, you have neither protector nor helper. S. 42:8, 30-31
And thus have We inspired in thee (Muhammad) a Spirit of Our command. Thou knewest not what the Scripture was, nor what the Faith. But We have made it a light whereby We guide whom We will of Our bondmen. And lo! thou verily dost guide unto a right path, S. 42:51 Pickthall
Thus, not only does Allah mislead the ungodly, he is the one who actually makes them ungodly in the first place and sends them straying from the very beginning! In other words, Allah has already determined beforehand who will be misled and has chosen not to grant certain individuals the ability to follow the guidance, thereby turning them into rebel sinners. Allah then decides to continue to lead these individuals astray for not believing in his message!(1)
In fact, the Quran makes the additional claim that the reason why any one wills or chooses to follow Islam is because Allah willed this for that individual; otherwise s/he would never have made the choice to believe!
And if thy Lord willed, all who are in the earth would have believed together. Wouldst thou (Muhammad) compel men until they are believers? It is not for any soul to believe save by the permission of Allah. He hath set uncleanness upon those who have no sense. S. 10:99-100
Verily! This is an admonition, so whosoever wills, let him take a Path to his Lord (Allah).BUT YOU CANNOT WILL, UNLESS ALLAH WILLS. Verily, Allah is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise. He will admit to His Mercy whom He will; But the wrong-doers,- for them has He prepared a grievous Penalty.” S. 76:29-31
To whomsoever among you who wills to walk straight, AND YOU WILL NOT, UNLESS (it be) that Allah wills, the Lord of the worlds. S. 81:28-29
So you are comparing apples with pineapples at this point.
In my next post I will quote the hadiths to further confirm that it is your god who creates people for hell and makes them do evil.
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Patrice, a.k.a. mr. pot, here are some hadiths for you and your pal Shaz, a.k.a. mr. kettle, to ponder over. Enjoy!
‘Abdullah b. Mas’ud reported: EVIL ONE IS HE WHO IS EVIL IN THE WOMB OF HIS MOTHER and the good one is he who takes lesson from the (fate of) others. The narrator came to a person from amongst the Companion of Allah’s Messenger who was called Hudhaifa b. Usaid Ghifari and said: How can a person be an evil one without (committing an evil) deed? Thereupon the person said to him: You are surprised at this, whereas I have heard Allah’s Messenger as saying: When forty nights pass after the semen gets into the womb, Allah sends the angel and gives him the shape. Then he creates his sense of hearing, sense of sight, his skin, his flesh, his bones, and then says: My Lord, would he be male or female? And your Lord decides as He desires and the angel then puts down that also and then says: My Lord, what about his age? And your Lord decides as He likes it and the angel puts it down. Then he says: My Lord, what about his livelihood? And then the Lord decides as He likes and the angel writes it down, and then the angel gets out with his scroll of destiny in his hand and nothing is added to it and nothing is subtracted from it. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6393)
This next report comments on the story found in the Quran (Q. 18:73, 80) concerning a young innocent child that a prophet killed on the grounds that he would grow up to be an infidel:
Ubayy b. Ka’b reported that Allah’s Messenger said: The young man whom Khadir killed was a non-believer BY HIS VERY NATURE and had he survived he would have involved his parents in defiance and unbelief. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6434)
The child was an unbeliever by his very nature, which means that Allah purposefully created him for disbelief, just as the following reports affirm!
4705. It was narrated Raqbah bin Masqalah, from Abu Ishaq, from Sa‘eed bin Jubair, from Ibn ‘Abbas that Ubayy bin Ka‘b said: “The Messenger of Allah said: ‘The boy whom Al-Khadir killed WAS CREATED A DISBELIEVER; if he had lived, he would have grieved his parents with his obstinate rebellion and ingratitude.’” (Sahih)
4706. It was narrated from Isra’il: “Abu Ishaq narrated to us, from Sa‘eed bin Jubair, from Ibn ‘Abbas, who said: ‘Ubayy bin Ka‘b narrated to us: “I heard the Messenger of Allah say concerning Allah’s saying: And as for the boy, his parents were believers – ‘THE DAY HE WAS CREATED, HE WAS CREATED A DISBELIEVERS.’”’” (Sahih) (English Translation of Sunan Abu Dawud, Compiled by Imam Hafiz Abu Dawud Sulaiman bin Ash‘ath – From Hadith no. 4351-5274, ahadith edited and referenced by Hafiz Abu Tahir Zubair ‘Ali Za’i, translated by Nasiruddin al-Khattab (Canada), final review by Abu Khaliyl (USA) [Darussalam Publishers & Distributors, First Edition: July, 2008], Volume 5, Chapter 16. Regarding Al-Qadar (The Divine Decree), pp. 216-217; capital emphasis ours)
And according to this next verse Allah also creates the idols which the people worship:
And he cast a glance at the stars, and he said, ‘Surely I am sick.’ But they went away from him, turning their backs. Then he turned to their gods, and said, ‘What do you eat? What ails you, that you speak not?’ And he turned upon them smiting them with his right hand. Then came the others to him hastening. He said, ‘Do you serve what you hew, and Allah created you AND WHAT YOU MAKE?’ S. 37:88-96
Abraham supposedly claimed that Allah made them and their idols, meaning that it was Allah who moved them to make statues of false gods!
Even a passage such as the following which suggests that Allah helps those who strive to follow the guidance or lead astray those who reject it,
surely your striving is to diverse ends. As for him who gives and is godfearing and confirms the reward most fair, We shall surely ease him to the Easing. But as for him who is a miser, and self-sufficient, and cries lies to the reward most fair, We shall surely ease him to the Hardship; his wealth shall not avail him when he perishes. Surely upon Us rests the guidance, and to Us belong the Last and the First. S. 92:5-13
Is explained in terms of predestination:
‘Ali reported: We were in a funeral in the graveyard of Gharqad that Allah’s Messenger came to us and we sat around him. He had a stick with him. He lowered his head and began to scratch the earth with his stick, and then raid: There is not one amongst you whom a seat in Paradise or Hell has not been allotted and about whom it has not been written down whether he would be an evil person or a blessed person. A person said: Allah’s Messenger, should we not then depend upon our destiny and abandon our deeds? Thereupon he said: ACTS OF EVERYONE WILL BE FACILITATED IN THAT WHICH HAS BEEN CREATED FOR HIM so that whoever belongs to the company of the blessed will have good works made easier for him AND WHOEVER BELONGS TO THE UNFORTUNATE ONES WILL HAVE EVIL ACTS MADE EASIER FOR HIM. HE THEN RECITED THIS VERSE (from the Qur’an): “Then, who gives to the needy and guards against evil and accepts the excellent (the truth of Islam and the path of righteousness it prescribes), We shall make easy for him the easy end and who is miserly and considers himself above need, We shall make easy for him the difficult end.” (xcii. 5-10) (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6398)
‘Ali reported that one day Allah’s Messenger was sitting with a wood in his hand and he was scratching the ground. He raised his head and said: There is not one amongst you who has not been allotted his seat in Paradise or Hell. They said: Allah’s Messenger, then why should we perform good deeds, why not depend upon our destiny? Thereupon he said. No, do perform good deeds, for everyone is facilitated in that for which he has been created; then he recited this verse: “Then, who gives to the needy and guards against evil and accepts the excellent (the truth of Islam and the path of righteousness it prescribes), We shall make easy for him the easy end…” (xcii. 5-10). (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6400)
Here are some additional ahadith that confirm the fact that it is Allah who determines beforehand who will be saved and who will burn in hell:
‘A’isha, the mother of the believers, said that Allah’s Messenger was called to lead the funeral prayer of a child of the Ansar. I said: Allah’s Messenger, there is happiness for this child who is a bird from the birds of Paradise for it committed no sin nor has he reached the age when one can commit sin. He said: ‘A’isha, per adventure, it may be otherwise, because God created for Paradise those who are fit for it while they were yet in their father’s loins and created for Hell those who are to go to Hell. He created them for Hell while they were yet in their father’s loins. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6436)
This next one is rather interesting:
He (Ibn Sa‘d) said: Then they said: O Apostle of Allah, our mother Mulaykah Bint al-Hulw used to secure the freedom of prisoners, feed the mendicant and show compassion to the poor. She had died. She had interred alive a daughter of very tender age, so what would be her condition. He said: She who interred her (daughter) alive and she who was interred alive are BOTH in hell fire. Thereupon they got infuriated. He said: Come to me. They came back and he said: My mother is with yours. They rejected it, and went away saying: By Allah! This man who made us eat the heart and thinks that our mother is in hell-fire, is not worthy of being followed. They set out and on the way they confronted one of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah who was bringing camels of sadaqah. They tied him and carried away the camels. This news reached the Prophet. He cursed them along with those whom he was cursing in these words: May Allah curse Ri‘l, Dhakwan, ‘Usayyah, Lihyan, and two sons of Mulaykah–Ibn Harim and Murran. (Ibn Sa’ad’s Kitab Al-Tabaqat Al-Kabir, English translation by S. Moinul Haq, M.A., PH.D, assisted by H.K. Ghazanfar M.A. [Kitab Bhavan Exporters & Importers, 1784 Kalan Mahal, Daryaganj, New Delhi – 110 002 India], Volume I, Parts I & II, pp. 383-384; capital and underline emphasis ours)
Not only did the mother who buried her baby daughter alive go to hell, but so did her infant child who died!
And lest a Muslim argue that this is a weak narration here is another report which scholars have classified as sahih or sound that confirms that a woman who buries her daughter and the girl who is buried will both end up in hell:
4717. It was narrated from Ibn Abi Za’idah: “My father narrated to me, from Amir who said: ’The Messenger of Allah said: “The woman who buries her infant daughter alive, and the girl who is buried alive, are both in the Fire.”’” Yahya bin Zakariyya said: “My father said: ‘Abu Ishaq narrated to me, that ‘Amir narrated that to him from ‘Alqamah, from Ibn Mas‘ud, from the Prophet.’” (Sahih) (English Translation of Sunan Abu Dawud, From Hadith no. 4351-5274, Volume 5, Chapter 17. Regarding The Offspring Of The Idolaters, pp. 221-222; underline emphasis ours)
The following “authentic” narrations reiterate the point made by the foregoing Quranic verses which we examined that Allah ordains what a person will do, whether good or bad. Allah will then save or destroy an individual as a consequence of the very actions which were foreordained for him/her to do!
Ibn Abbas reported that Allah’s Messenger was asked about the children of the polytheists, whereupon he said: It is Allah alone Who knows what they would be doing ACCORDING TO THEIR CREATION. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6433)
Chapter 3. What Has Been Related About Misery And Happiness
2135. ‘Asim bin ‘Ubaidullah said: “I heard Salim bin ‘Abdullah narrating a Hadith from his father who said: ‘‘Umar said: “O Messenger of Allah! Do you see that what we do is a new matter – or a matter initiated – or it is a matter already concluded?” He said: “O Ibn al-Khattab! IT IS A MATTER ALREADY CONCLUDED. For everyone is suited (for that which he is created). As for one who is among the people of happiness, then he works for happiness, AND AS FOR ONE WHO IS AMONG THE PEOPLE OF MISERY, THEN HE WORKS FOR MISERY .”’” (Hasan)
[Abu ‘Eisa said:] There are narrations on this topic from ‘Ali, Hudhaifah bin Asid, Anas, and ‘Imran bin Husain. This Hadith is Hasan Sahih.
2136. ‘Ali narrated: “We were with the Messenger of Allah and he was scraping the ground, when he raised his head to the heavens, then said: ‘There is not one of you but (his place) is known’ – Waki‘ said: ‘His place has been decreed (be it) in the Fire, and (or) his place in Paradise.’ They said: ‘Shall we not rely upon this O Messenger of Allah?’ He said: ‘No. Work, for everyone is facilitated for what he created.’” (Sahih)
[Abu ‘Eisa said:] This Hadith is Hasan Sahih.
Comments:
Everyone of us is being enabled to do what is written for him. There is no getting away from those deeds. But since no one knows what is allotted for him, or whether he is destined to do acts of blessedness or of wretchedness, each one of us is obligated to abide by the dictates of the Shari‘ah and do virtuous deeds, as exhorted to by the Prophets and written in the Holy Books. (English Translation of Jami‘ At-Tirmidhi, Compiled by Imam Hafiz ‘Eisa Mohammad Ibn ‘Eisa At-Tirmidhi, From Hadith no. 1897 to 2605, translated by Abu Khalil (USA), Ahadith edited and referenced by Hafiz Abu Tahir Zubair ‘Ali Za’i, final review by Islamic Research Section Darussalam [Darussalam Publishers & Distributors, First Edition: November 2007], Volume 4, pp. 198-200; underline emphasis ours)
Chapter 7. What Has Been Related About ‘The Hearts Are Between The Fingers Of Ar-Rahman’
2140. Anas narrated: “The Messenger of Allah would often say: Ya Muqallibal-qulub, thabbit qalbi ‘ala dinik (‘O Changer of the Hearts! Strengthen my heart upon Your religion).’ So I would say: ‘O Prophet of Allah! We believe in you and what you have come with, but do you fear for us?’ He said: ‘Yes. Indeed the hearts are between two Fingers of Allah’s Fingers, He changes them as He wills.’” (Sahih)
[Abu ‘Eisa said:] There are narrations on this topic from An-Nawwas bin Sam‘an, Umm Salamah, ‘Abdullah, ‘Aishah, and Abu Dharr.
This Hadith is Hasan Sahih. This is how it was reported by more than one narrator from Al-A‘mash from Abu Sufyan, from Anas. And some of them reported it from Al-A‘mash, from Abu Sufyan, from Jabir from the Prophet. The narration of Abu Sufyan from Anas is more authentic.
Comments:
Allah does have Hands and Fingers but not like those of His creatures. They are as befit His grandeur and glory. He is, thus, above all resemblance and similitude. We believe in them as they are mentioned in the Qur’an and Hadith without coining any similitude, or conjuring up any image, nor denying and explaining them away. (At-Tirmidhi, Volume 4, pp. 203-204)
Chapter 4. What Has Been Related About ‘One’s Deeds Depend Upon One’s End’
2137. ‘Abdullah bin Mas‘ud said: “The Messenger of Allah narrated to us – and he is the truthful and entrusted one: ‘Indeed the creation of one of you is gathered inside his mother in forty days. Then, for a similar period, he is a clot. Then, for a similar period, he is a piece of flesh. Then Allah sends the angel to him to blow the soul into him, and he is ordered to write four (things): To write his provision, his life-span, his works, and whether he will be wretched or happy. By the One besides Whom there is none other worthy of worship! One of you will do deeds of the people of the Paradise, until there is between him and it but a forearm span, then he is overcome by what is written for him, and he is sealed off with the deeds of the people of the Fire, so that he enters it. And indeed one of you will do deeds of the people of the Fire, until there is between him and it but a forearm span, then he is overcome by what is written for him, and he is sealed off with the deeds of the people of Paradise, so that he enters it.’” (Sahih)
[Abu ‘Eisa said:] This Hadith is Hasan Sahih.
(Another chain, but including Yahya bin Sa‘eed) with similar meaning.
[Abu ‘Eisa said:] There are narrations on this topic from Abu Hurairah and Anas and I heard Ahmad bin Al-Hasan say: “I heard Ahmad bin Hanbal saying: ‘I have not seen the likes of Yahya bin Sa‘eed with my eyes.’” And this Hadith is Hasan Sahih …
Commentary:
It is necessary that all of us be constantly supplicating Allah for a good end to our lives, and salvation from an evil end. It is also necessary that we, on the basis of our seeing a person doing what he does, do not jump to judgement on whether he is destined for Hell or Paradise, since we have no means to know how he will behave towards the end of his life. (At-Tirmidhi, Volume 4, pp. 200-201; underline emphasis ours)
These final are real doozies since they claim that Allah deliberately created black skinned people for hell!
Abu Darda’ reported God’s messenger as saying, “God created Adam when He created him and struck his right shoulder and brought forth his offspring white like small ants. And he struck his left shoulder and brought forth his offspring BLACK as though they were charcoal. Then He said to the party on his right said, ‘To paradise, and I do not care’, and He said to the party in his left shoulder ‘To hell, and I do not care’.” Ahmad transmitted it. (Mishkat Al Masabih, English translation with explanatory notes by Dr. James Robson [Sh. Muhammad Ahsraf Publishers, Booksellers & Exporters, Lahore-Pakistan, Reprint 1990], Volume I, Chapter IV, Book I.- Faith, pp. 31-32; bold and italic emphasis ours)
And:
Narrated AbudDarda’
Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) said: Allah created Adam when He had to create him and He struck his right shoulder and there emitted from it white offspring as if they were white ants. He struck his left shoulder and there emitted from it THE BLACK OFFSPRINGS as if they were charcoal. He then said (to those who had been emitted) from the right (shoulder): For Paradise and I do not mind. Then He said to those (who had been emitted) from his left shoulder: They are for Hell and I do not mind. Transmitted by Ahmad. (Al-Tirmidhi Hadith, Number 38; ALIM Online Version)
Hence, black people are condemned to hell for having the very skin color that Allah predetermined for them even before their creation! Is this just to condemn people on the basis of their skin color when they didn’t have a choice in the matter? These people weren’t asked beforehand whether they wanted to be black, white, Arabian, American etc., but this was something already decided beforehand by Allah.
OUCH!
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The Bible does indeed say that God deliberately hardened Pharoahs heart for a specific purpose which was not because he was a disbeliever but rather made him into one:
“But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and I will multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt. When Pharaoh does not listen to you, I will lay my hand upon Egypt and bring my people the Israelites, company by company, out of the land of Egypt by great acts of judgment. The Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out from among them.” – Exodus 9:3-5
You next quote the Qur’an when it says that God didn’t will for everyone to be Muslims therefore many will end up in hell. However the Qur’an states rather clearly that there will be non-Muslims in heaven such as the Christians, Jews, and Sabians and everyone who believes in God and the last day. Its only fundamentalist evangelicalism that demands only they are going to heaven.
Finally you say that the Qur’an states God deliberately deceives and makes people unbelievers however the Qur’an also says:
“Indeed, Allah is not timid to present an example – that of a mosquito or what is smaller than it. And those who have believed know that it is the truth from their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, they say, “What did Allah intend by this as an example?” He misleads many thereby and guides many thereby. And He misleads not except the defiantly disobedient,” – Surah 2:26 Sahih International
Therego Gods sayings do not cause people to disbelieve but only those who already do will continue to do so unless God grants faith. I believe Christianity teaches the same thing “If not for the grace of God there go I…”?
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Patrice, is this all you got to say in response to all my copious quotations from both the Quran and ahadith which prove that Allah does more than not make people Muslims, but that he actually creates them to be evil to commit immoral, wicked acts since he purposely created them for hell? Seriously, and you think by quoting a verse from the Quran that contradicts all of this helps your case, or merely highlights the fact that your prophet was confused which is why his book is filled with irreconcilable errors? Seriously?
You then had the audacity to misquote Exodus by giving the impression that God somehow does what Allah does. If you actually bothered to read the Bible you will see that God NEVER takes a believers and forces them to unbelief and sin. Rather, God can justly take persistent blasphemers and unbelievers and hand them over to the desires of their heart in order to display his power and glory to those who believe. Read CAREFULLY:
“Hear, O My people, and I will testify against you. O Israel, if you would listen to me! 9 There shall be no strange god among you; neither shall you bow down to any strange god. 10 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt; open your mouth wide, and I will fill it. 11 BUT MY PEOPLE WOULD NOT LISTEN TO MY VOICE; ISRAEL WOULD NOT SUB,IT TO ME. 12 SO I GAVE THEM UP TO THEIR STUBBORN HEARTS, TO WALK IN THEIR OWN COUNSELS. 13 Oh, that My people would listen to Me, and Israel would follow in My ways!” Psalm 81:8-13
“Because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him or give thanks to Him as God, but became futile in their imaginations, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools. 23 They changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man, birds, four-footed beasts, and creeping things.THEREFORE GOD GAVE THEM UP TO UNCLEANNESS THROUGH THE LUSTS OF THEIR HEARTS, to dishonor their own bodies among themselves. 25 They turned the truth of God into a lie and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 FOR THIS REASON GOD GAVE THEM UP TO DISHONORABLE PASSIONS. Their women exchanged the natural function for what is against nature. 27 Likewise the men, leaving the natural function of the woman, burned in their lust toward one another, men with men doing that which is shameful, and receiving in themselves the due penalty of their error. 28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, GOD GAVE THEM OVER TO A DEBASED MIND, to do those things which are not proper. ” Romans 1:24-28
“even him, whose coming is in accordance with the working of Satan with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all deception of unrighteousness among those who perish, BECAUSE THEY DID NOT RECEIVE THE LOVE FOR THE TRUTH THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED . 11 THEREFORE God will send them a strong delusion, that they should believe the lie: 12 that they all might be condemned WHO DID NOT BELIEVE THE TRUTH BUT HAD PLEASURE IN UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.” 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
Let’s take your example of Pharaoh. The reason why God raised up Pharaoh to display his power against him in order to show Israel his great love for them by displaying his great power and majesty in saving them from their oppressors, is because Pharaoh was a pagan whose heart was already hardened by his disbelief and sin:
“The Lord said to Moses, ‘PHARAOH’S HEART IS HARDENED. He refuses to let the people go.’ Nevertheless, the magicians of Egypt did the same with their secret arts, AND PHARAOH’S HEART WAS HARDENED, and he did not listen to them, as the Lord had said.” Exodus 7:14, 22
“But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, HE HARDENED HIS HEART and did not listen to them, as the Lord had said… Nevertheless, PHARAOH HARDENED HIS HEART AT THIS TIME ALSO, nor would he let the people go.” Exodus 8:15, 32
This why God hardened his heart, in order to then take an unbeliever who already was steeped in sin and unbelief, and use him as an example of what happens to those who rebel against the true God and refuse to turn to him:
“The Lord said to Moses, ‘When you go to return into Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in your hand, BUT I WILL HARDEN HIS HEAR, so that he shall not let the people go.'” Exodus 4:21
“BUT I WILL HARDEN PHARAOH’S HEART and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.” Exodus 7:3
In other words, God DID NOT TAKE SOMEONE WHO WANTED TO BELIEVE AND FORCED HIM TO UNBELIEF, BUT RATHER TOOK SOMEONE WHO WAS ALREADY HARDENED AT HEART AND HANDED HIM OVER TO HIS OWN SINFUL DESIRES.
Let me repeat this point by putting it in all caps also, so that the point finally sinks in your mind. THE CONTEXT OF EXODUS, AND THE HOLY BIBLE AS A WHOLE, PLAINLY SHOW WHY GOD HARDENED PHARAOH’S HEART, NAMELY BECAUSE PHARAOH HAD ALREADY HARDENED HIS OWN HEART DUE TO HIS SINFUL UNBELIEVING NATURE! God is therefore justified in taking an unbeliever who persists in his rebellion and hate of God and hardening his heart further in order to display his great power against him for his sinfulness and evil ways.
Like I said, stop comparing apples with pineapples because the true God IS UNLIKE your god since the true God DOES NOT CREATE PEOPLE FOR THE PURPOSE OF MAKING THEM SIN SO AS TO DESTROY THEM IN HELL. Don’t confuse your Allah with Yahweh Elohim.
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And here are some more citations for you so you can see what your sources really teach about predestination:
Appendix A – Predestination in the Creed of al-Tahawi
The following excerpts are taken from Muslim scholar Hamza Yusuf’s translation of The Creed of Imam Al-Tahawi (Al-Aqidah al-Tahawiyyah), published by Zaytuna Institute, 2007. The creed is a summary of orthodox Islamic beliefs written by a renowned Muslim jurist named Imam Abu Ja’far al-Tahawi (853–933 AD). It has long been recognized as one of the most accurate descriptions of the essentials of the Muslim faith.
7. Nothing will be except what He wills. Pg. 50
20. He measured out the lots [of all He created].
21. He determined the spans of their lives.
22. None of their actions were concealed from Him before He created them. He knew what they would do before He created them.
23. He commanded them to obey Him and proscribed them from disobeying Him.
24. All things are in accordance with His determination and will, and His will is fulfilled.
25. His servants are without volition except what He wills for them. Thus, what He wills for them will be, and what He does not will for them will not be.
26. He guides, protects, and preserves whomever He wills by grace. And He misguides, forsakes, and afflicts whomever He wills by justice. Pg. 52
52. God has always known the total number of those who will enter Paradise and those who will enter the Fire. Nothing is added to or subtracted from that number.
53. His knowledge includes all of their actions, which He knew they would perform.
54. “Each is facilitated to do that for which he was created.” Pg. 58
56. Those saved are ultimately saved by God’s decision, just as those damned are ultimately damned by God’s decision.
57. The essence of the divine decree is God’s secret within creation. No intimate angel or prophetic emissary has ever been privy to it.
58. Delving into the decree is a means to a spiritual loss, a descent into deprivation, and a path toward transgression. So beware, and take every precaution against that, whether through perusal, ideation, or suggestion. God, the Sublime and Exalted, has concealed knowledge of the decree from His creatures and has prohibited them from desiring it. As the Sublime said in His Book, He is not questioned about what He does–it is they who will be questioned (21:23). Hence, anyone who asks, “Why has He done this?” has rejected the judgment of the Book. And whoever rejects the judgment of the Book is among the disbelievers. Pg. 60
63. A servant of God is obliged to know that God’s omniscience preceded everything in His creation. He then measured everything out exactly and decisively. There is none among His creatures either in the heavens or on the earth who can nullify, overrule, remove, change, detract from, or add to His decree.
64. All of the aforementioned is part of the doctrine of faith, the principles of knowledge, and the assent of His unity and sovereignty as God, the Sublime and Exalted, said in His Book, And He created every thing and determined its measure (25:2). And He, the Sublime and Exalted, also said, And the command of God is an ordained decree (33:38). Pg. 62
God, the Sublime and Exalted, created Paradise and the Fire before creating [the world]. He then created denizens for both abodes. He admits to Paradise whomever he wills by His grace and condemns to the Fire whomever He wills by His justice. Pg. 72
107. Human actions are God’s creation but humanity’s acquisitions.
108. God, the Sublime and Exalted, has only obliged human beings to do what they are capable of doing, and they are only capable of doing what He obliged them to do – hence the meaning of “No strength or power exists save by means of God.” We assert that no one’s strategy, move, or change can avert anyone from any act of disobedience to God, unless accompanied by God’s providence; nor has anyone the ability to initiate or fulfill duties to God save by the providence of God, the Sublime and Exalted. Pg. 74
The preceding quotations from one of the most authentic and widely recognized Islamic creeds provide further substantiation that orthodox Islam affirms and teaches that Allah has predestined all who will enter paradise or hell, and has also preordained the very actions that all of his creatures will commit by necessity.
Now if you want to read my full exposition on what your religion really teaches about predestination then please go here: http://answeringislam.net/Quran/Contra/predestination.html
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Paul’s Pal
Those are great points – this sorry muslim attempt at dawah is backfiring horribly! LOL!!
“It gets a lot worse for these Muslims. The Quran affirms that Allah makes immorality and evil alluring and pleasant to people:”
Yep, no matter how hard muslims try to tart up their god, the ugly truth can’t help oozing out like pus from a butt zit. LOL!!
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Patrice
“Take for example Pauls Letter to the Romans where God furthers the unbelief of those who reject faith (cf Romans 1) or God hardening Pharoahs heart to reject Moses’ plea to free the Jews in Exodus and most importantly what about allowing Satan to tempt Job through his pain and suffering?
It seems that the pot is calling the kettle black. In truth the Qur’an acknowledges that God tests the believers in certain ways but does no more than one can bear and always gives man free will to choose how to respond. Whereas it seems in said bible stories God INTENTIONALLY prevents people from choosing faith.”
That’s dumb even for you patrice. Didn’t you even bother to look up the passages that Paul’s Pal quoted?
They say explicitly that your god tempts people and leads them astray and that they have no choice in the matter. Surely even you can see that tempting people with evil and pre-ordaining who will sin is different to god allowing people to make their own choices? Is it that complex?
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Patrice
“The Bible does indeed say that God deliberately hardened Pharoahs heart for a specific purpose which was not because he was a disbeliever but rather made him into one”
Huh?
Pharoah was a believer in the god of Israel? That’s a new one.
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With the name of Allah the Gracious the Merciful
Shame-on: // .. orthodox Islam affirms and teaches that Allah has predestined all who will enter paradise or hell, and has also preordained the very actions that all of his creatures will commit by necessity.//
Another lies and distortion by shame-on abu Jahl ,
Nowhere Aqeedah at Tahawiyyah suggest that Allah creates people for hell and makes them do evil. That’s sheer stupidity.
Allah is all-powerful, thus He is all knowing. Surely Allah would naturally know everything that happens before they happen because his all knowing perfect knowledge.
Allah does not need to wait until His creation do something for him to learn about it. This is what our ulema understand it like in Predestination in the Creed of al-Tahawi.
Nothing about them was hidden from Him before He created them, and He knew everything that they would do before He created them.
So Allah knew before hand what His creations will do in the future. This does mean their free will is somehow determined and they can’t really do anything about it. What happens is based on our choices but God in his perfect knowledge, knew you would make that action and take that choice before you did either and already recorded it down.
Unlike trinitarianism messy and confusing belief, belief In Islam we are not allowed to question or speculate about Allah substance and infinite wisdom.
Hujjatul-lslam at-Tahawi continues
The exact nature of the predestination (Qadr) is Allah’s secret in His creation, and no angel near the Throne, nor Prophet sent with a message, has been given knowledge of it. Delving into it and reflecting too much about it only leads to destruction and loss, and results in rebelliousness. So be extremely careful about thinking and reflecting on this matter or letting doubts about it assail you, because Allah has kept knowledge of the decree away from human beings, and forbidden them to enquire about it, saying in His Book, “He is not asked about what He does, but they are asked”.
Therefore, anyone who asks: “Why did Allah do that?” has gone against a judgement of the Book, and anyone who goes against a judgement of the Book is an unbeliever.
Silly if you think you can impress anyone with intelligence with your habit of citing Islamic sources with obvious lack of understanding.
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FAO Paul’s Pal
Hi, IIRC you argued the God that sent Jesus cannot be the God Muslims worship as Jesus called God the Father while Islam teaches God (Allah) is not the father of anyone.
Firstly, Jews used the word abba for God in a metaphorical sense denoting closeness and an intimate relationship with God.
Secondly, there’s no hard evidence Jesus called God by the term “father”. If you have a look at Mark 3:35 you will see Jesus is said to have used the word God while Mattthew changes the same statement by replacing the word ‘God’ with the word ‘Father’ in Matt 12:50.
Mark was written earlier than Mathew and Matthew is considered to have used the Gospel of Mark to write his own Gospel. Thus the earlier strand of Christian account does not have Jesus using the word “father”.
Please look into this for yourself, compare the two in English and even the Greek is reflects this too (Theou and Patros):
For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother. [Mark 3:35]
For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” [Matt 12:50]
Let me know what you think of this.Also, try and visit your local Mosque to study scripture together and have friendship and dialogue.
Peace
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Yahyaslime is out barking again, and only adds further humiliation to himself and his profit. So let’s expose this chap shall we?
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Firstly, Jews used the word abba for God in a metaphorical sense denoting closeness and an intimate relationship with God.
END
Thank you for further proving that your profit was a fake messenger and antichrist SINCE HE EVEN DENIED THE METAPHORICAL SENSE OF THE WORD FATHER FOR HIS FALSE GOD! Here is the proof:
Since the Jews and Christians of Muhammad’s time DID NOT MEAN that God was their biological father, but their spiritual father or, as you put, their father in a metaphorical, this verse therefore proves THAT YOUR PROPHET REJECTED EVEN THIS SENSE OF FATHERHOOD FOR HIS DEITY!
This means that either you know more than your profit did, or you are simply a boldfaced liar and deceiver in imitation of your god since you know full well that your profit rejected the fatherhood of God for his deity in every possible sense of the term, whether spiritual, metaphorical etc. As such, he stands condemned by the testimony both the Jews and Christians as an antichrist and agent of Satan.
You then go from dumb to just outright stupid.
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Secondly, there’s no hard evidence Jesus called God by the term “father”. If you have a look at Mark 3:35 you will see Jesus is said to have used the word God while Mattthew changes the same statement by replacing the word ‘God’ with the word ‘Father’ in Matt 12:50.
END
This again either exemplifies that you are an illiterate ignoramus or an outright deceiver SINCE IT WAS YOUR FRIEND INTELLECT WHO QUOTED JOHN 17:3 AND 20:17, PASSAGES WHERE JESUS CLEARLY CALLS GOD HIS OWN FATHER AND THE FATHER OF BELIEVERS! You need to therefore tell your fellow Muhammadan TO STOP QUOTING TEXTS TO PROVE HIS POSITION IF, AS YOU SAY, THESE TEXTS ARE NOT RELIABLE.
Now let me further add to your humiliation.
BEGIN
Mark was written earlier than Mathew and Matthew is considered to have used the Gospel of Mark to write his own Gospel. Thus the earlier strand of Christian account does not have Jesus using the word “father”.
Please look into this for yourself, compare the two in English and even the Greek is reflects this too (Theou and Patros):
For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother. [Mark 3:35]
For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” [Matt 12:50]
END
Since you appealed to Mark, you are now stuck with Mark since this is what Mark says about Jesus and about God’s will for believers:
“Six days later, Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John, and brought them up on a high mountain by themselves. And He was transfigured before them; and His garments became radiant and exceedingly white, as no launderer on earth can whiten them. Elijah appeared to them along with Moses; and they were talking with Jesus. Peter said to Jesus, ‘Rabbi, it is good for us to be here; let us make three tabernacles, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.’ For he did not know what to answer; for they became terrified. Then a cloud formed, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud, ‘This is MY BELOVED SON, LISTEN TO HIM!’” Mark 9:2-7 – cf. Matthew 17:1-5; 2 Peter 1:16-18
There are several points that need to be noted here. To begin with, we have the Lord Jesus being transformed in the presence of his followers in order to reveal to them his inner, abiding divine glory. We also have Moses and Elijah appearing as a testimony to the fact that Christ is the One whom the prophetic writings announced would be coming into the world. We then have God the Father himself coming down in a cloud for the purpose of exhorting the disciples to listen to Christ since he is the Son whom he loves, a fact which God had already borne witness to on a previous occasion:
“In those days Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. Immediately coming up out of the water, He saw the heavens opening, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon Him; and a voice came out of the heavens: ‘You are My beloved Son, in You I AM WELL-PLEASED.’” Mark 1:9-11 – cf. Matthew 3:16-17; Luke 3:22
Noted NT scholar Larry W. Hurtado helps bring out the significance of this event:
9:2-13 / The open and forthright nature of Jesus’ teaching about his coming death in 8:31-32 is matched here by a powerful disclosure of his true significance as the Son of God… The placement of this account right after Jesus’ promise of his future, glorious vindication (8:38-9:1) shows the reader a glimpse of that glory. The direct connection of this event with the sayings in 8:38-9:1 is underscored by the note after six days in 9:2, meaning six days after the sayings in 8:38-9:1 (cf. Luke 9:28, “about eight days”). The mention of six days is, however, also very likely an allusion to Exodus 24:15, where after six days, Moses is summoned to a mountaintop and is given a revelation of God. We have already seen how Mark alludes to the OT to elucidate the significance of the events he recounts. Here the point of the allusion is to alert the reader that what is about to take place IS A MANIFESTATION OF GOD (A THEOPHANY) like that mentioned in Exodus 24:15-18 and that a new revelation is here given that therefore surpasses the former one to Moses. (Hurtado, Mark: New International Biblical Commentary Based on the New International Version [Hendricksen Publishers, Inc., 1989], p. 144; capital emphasis ours)
And:
“Thus, several features in the account attest that Jesus is the Messiah and that his presence is the fulfillment of hopes for God’s salvation. But the passage shows that Jesus is even more than this. Additional items in the narrative show what this ‘more’ is. First, there is the description of Jesus’ transfigured appearance in 9:2-3. The reference to the dazzling white clothes (v. 3) is an allusion to Daniel 7:9, which is a description of God. This allusion suggests that the experience of the disciples in 9:2-13 IS A DIVINE MANIFESTATION like the visions of OT prophets (in addition to Dan. 7:9-14, see also Isa. 6:1-3; Ezek. 1:4-28; 8:1-4). But this means that the ‘transfiguration’ of Jesus shows him IN A FORM LIKE GOD, meaning that he is not just as the Messiah, an especially godly human chosen to rule in God’s name, HE IS HIMSELF ‘CLOTHED’ IN DIVINE GLORY.
“Second, the voice from heaven in 9:7 confirms this transcendent significance of Jesus in acclaiming him my Son, whom I love. The phrase is exactly the same as the first part of the voice from heaven at Jesus’ baptism (1:11) and, like that statement, bestows upon Jesus AN UNEQUALED STATUS. ‘Beloved Son’ means that, of all those who have been called sons of God (in the OT, Israel, the king of Israel; in later literature, a righteous man), Jesus is superior to them all. Together with the transfigured appearance of Jesus, this statement shows that THERE RESTS UPON HIM UNPARALLELED GLORY AND DIVINE FAVOR. The cloud (9:7), recalling OT accounts in which the presence and glory of God are indicated by a cloud covering the spot where God manifests himself to someone (cf., e.g., Exod. 16:10; 19:9; 24:15-18; 34:5; 40:34-38), means that the unnamed voice from the cloud is the very voice of God.” (Ibid., pp. 145-146; capital emphasis ours)
Hence, the will of God according to Mark is to believe that the Lord Jesus is the unique divine Son of God whom the Father loves and delights in!
Therefore, the very earliest Gospel, the very one you just appealed to to make yourself and supposedly expose Matthew of corruption ends up providing further proof that your profit was a liar and antichrist for denying that God is the Father and Jesus is his Son.
This should tell you that you have no business do apologetics because you are the most pathetic daiee of them all, a real embarrassment to your fellow Muslim polemicists.
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actually Sam, Yahya Snow does an excellent job exposing the likes of you, Jay Smith, James White, and other missionary types. That is why you hate him so much.
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Williams, what are you smoking? My hate has nothing to do with him exposing me since, as you just read for yourself, he got humiliated for trying to appeal to Mark, a Gospel that also condemns your profit as a fraud. My hate has to do with his slander and outright deception. Had you been a man of truth and integrity you too would despise this coward for his blatant lies and deceit and slander. However, you can’t hate him for it because that means you would have to hate and condemn Muhammad as well, seeing that Yahya is simply imitating him.
So put down the pipe and the bottle and come to grips with reality that your cowardly kitten just get pwned by the likes of me. it really sucks being you or him. 😉
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Sam none of the passages from the Bible that you cited actually prove anything other than what Muslims already believe which is that Jesus is a beloved Prophet of God and indeed Son of God (according to the Jewish understanding of the term which was a pious man). Jesus also abrogating some of the Torah with his own revelation does not contradict the Qur’an either if i’m not mistaken.
Jesus however never said that the Torah was to be abolished which later Christians demand us believe since according to Jesus to believe and obey Torah meant salvation cf Mark 10:18-19. Even if the Gospels are to be 100% believed as containing Jesus’ original message.
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Do I seriously need to repeat myself? I am hoping that you are way more intelligent and honest than either Yahya or some of the others here. The fact is that YOUR PROPHET REJECTED EVEN THE JEWISH UNDERSTANDING OF GOD’S FATHERHOOD. Let me quote the verse for you again:
The Jews and Christians say: We are sons of Allah and His loved ones. Say: Why then doth He chastise you for your sins? Nay, ye are but mortals of His creating. He forgiveth whom He will, and chastiseth whom He will. Allah’s is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them, and unto Him is the journeying. S. 5:18
As I said before, the Jews of Muhammad’s day would have understood their relationship to God as his sons in a similar sense to what you propose here, AND YET MUHAMMAD REJECTED EVEN THAT UNDERSTANDING OF GOD’S FATHERHOOD! So thank you for admitting that Muhammad did not have a clue what he was talking about and that, by denying the spiritual Fatherhood of God, he ends up exposing himself as an antichrist and false prophet.
Secondly, you again chose to cherry pick verses from Mark 10 without bothering to read THE REST OF IT. Let’s see what you conveniently omitted:
“As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, ‘Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?’ And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. You know the commandments, “DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, Do not defraud, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.”’ And he said to Him, ‘Teacher, I have kept all these things from my youth up.’ Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, ‘One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.’ But at these words he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property.” Mark 10:17-22
Let me repeat the part you obviously missed:
“Jesus said to him, ‘If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; AND COME, FOLLOW ME.” Mark 10:21 – cf. Matthew 19:21; Luke 18:22
Did you bother to pay attention to Jesus explicitly telling the young man that performing the commandments isn’t enough for salvation, but that he had to give up all his riches in order to follow Christ to be perfect?
In fact, Jesus himself expressly told his followers that they must love him more than anything and anyone, and be willing to give up everything for him, even their very own lives, if they wish to be saved:
“And He summoned the crowd with His disciples, and said to them, ‘If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for MY SAKE and the gospel’s will save it. For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, and forfeit his soul? For what will a man give in exchange for his soul? For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of HIS Father with the holy angels.’” Mark 8:34-38 – cf. Matthew 16:24-27; Luke 9:23-26
“He who loves father or mother more than ME is not worthy of ME; and he who loves son or daughter more than ME is not worthy of ME. And he who does not take his cross and follow after ME is not worthy of ME. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for MY SAKE will find it.” Matthew 10:37-39
“Now large crowds were going along with Him; and He turned and said to them, ‘If anyone comes TO ME, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. Whoever does not carry his own cross and come AFTER ME cannot be My disciple… So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.’” Luke 14:25-27, 33
In light of this, do you not see that Jesus’ own words conclusively prove that salvation comes from trusting in and following him, not by observing the commands of the Torah? Or were you too busy trying to force the Gospels to fit in with your Islamic presuppositions to even bother noticing Christ’s explicit statements to this fact?
This brought out more clearly by what Jesus went on to say in this very same chapter:
“For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom FOR MANY.” Mark 10:45 – cf. Matthew 20:28; 1 Timothy 2:6; Revelation 5:9-10; 7:9-14
Notice that Jesus says that he purposely came to offer his life as a ransom for many lives! How could you have missed this passage from the very same chapter where you pulled verses from?
There’s more:
“While they were eating, He took some bread, and after a blessing He broke it, and gave it to them, and said, ‘Take it; this is My body.’ And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, and they all drank from it. And He said to them, ‘This is MY BLOOD of the covenant, which is poured out FOR MANY.’” Mark 14:22-24 – cf. Matthew 26:26-28; Luke 22:19-20
Jesus expressly says that he pours out his blood, meaning his life, on the cross for many. We have an angel telling that one of the reasons why Jesus came into the world was to save his people from their sins:
“She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, FOR HE WILL SAVE HIS PEOPLE FROM THEIR SINS.” Matthew 1:21
However, in order for Jesus to be able to redeem anyone from his/her transgressions he must be God since the OT is clear that no man is capable of offering Yahweh a ransom to save a single human life, let alone countless number of individuals. This is why the prophetic writings emphatically testify that it is God alone who redeems people from their sins and death:
“NO MAN can by any means redeem his brother Or give to God a ransom for him—For the redemption of his soul is costly, And he should cease trying forever—That he should live on eternally, That he should not undergo decay… As sheep they are appointed for Sheol; Death shall be their shepherd; And the upright shall rule over them in the morning, And their form shall be for Sheol to consume So that they have no habitation. But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol, For He will receive me. Selah.” Psalm 49:7-9, 14-15
And:
“O Israel, hope in the LORD; For with the LORD there is lovingkindness, And with Him is abundant redemption. And He will redeem Israel From all his iniquities.” Psalm 130:7-8
Jesus himself went on to tell his followers right after the rich man had walked away from him that it is impossible for men to save themselves. In perfect agreement with the inspired OT writings, Christ affirms that God alone is capable of saving anyone:
“And Jesus, looking around, said to His disciples, ‘How hard it will be for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God!’ The disciples were amazed at His words. But Jesus answered again and said to them, ‘Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.’ They were even more astonished and said to Him, ‘Then who can be saved?’ Looking at them, Jesus said, ‘With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.’” Mark 10:23-27 – cf. Matthew 19:23-26; Luke 18:24-27
My question to you is, how in the world did you miss all of this?
Moreover, you need to stop attacking straw man here since no informed Christian claims Jesus ABOLISHED the Torah. Rather, we believe he perfectly fulfilled it since the Torah was designed to be perfected and completed by the Messiah Jesus.
Finally, whether you like it or not YOU MUST BELIEVE that the Gospels are 100% authentic since both your Quran and your prophet’s sunna AFFIRM the textual incorruptibility and divine authority of the Scriptures in the hands of the Jews and Christians. I have over a dozen articles, rebuttals and lectures proving all of this, some of which you can find here: http://answeringislam.net/Quran/Bible/index.html
However, of you care to debate me on this topic in my room on Paltalk I will be more than happy to refute any and all verses or hadiths that you think prove otherwise. Do you accept my friendly challenge?
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Once again you seem to think that quoting a multitude of texts which state people during Jesus’ time had to be his disciple in order to receive salvation, i.e. follow the Gospel the latest of Gods revelations like the people at Sinai were commanded to believe and be disciples of Moses. Muslims agree with that statement if you were living in 1st century Israel and heard the Gospel then yes follow Jesus. If you are now living in the 7th century, 8th, 9th, 20th etc… then follow Muhammad who has the final revelation of God. No problems there.
All the statements of Jesus about loving him more than anyone else interestingly mirrors what the Prophet Muhammad said as well to his followers for in doing so means people draw closer to God through the example of his messengers as they are the perfect interpreters of Gods revelation to them. Therefore follow Jesus, love Jesus more than anyone else but what that also means is to follow the God who created and sent him.
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and Sam i’m not going to debate you Paltalk as I have better things to do such as enjoying the summer and reading Kahlil Gibran. Thanks but no thanks.
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Thank you Paul Williams for that supportive comment.
@Sam (aka /paul’s Pal), if we do away with the insults you padded your comment with we see you have very little real interaction with my point.
You’re argument is flawed from the start and also incosistent, the prohibition of calling Allah “my Father” does not mean Allah is not God. Think about it, there are dietary laws that are taught in the Hebrew Bible but done way with in the New Testament, would the Evangelical now seriously argue the God of the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) is not the same God that Paul preached about? The argument is not only flawed but it is inconsistently applied.
Sam this is the major point of the conversation as your argument to claim Allah is not the God of Jesus because Islam forbids calling God “Father” is shown to be flawed and inconsistent.
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As for my point on Mark not having JESUS use the term “Father” for God, it was not countered by anything you wrote. You wrote a lot as well.
You cited Hurtado for some reason. I don’t know why. It’s not relevant to our conversation.
You cited John and spoke about what another participant on this blog post wrote. I fail to see how that deals with the issue of JESUS never using the term Father in the earliest Gospel (MARK). Again, it was irrelevant.
You also mentioned Mark 1:11 where the author of Mark purports a voice from Heaven called Jesus my son. You miss the point, this is not a quote attributed to JESUS calling God “my father”. It’s narrative by the author of that verse. Can you show me anywhere in Mark where JESUS calls God “Father”.
Look, for me this is not a big point, if you can convince me there was nothing cynical about Matthew changing the purported Jesus quote in Mark 3:35 by replacing the word God with Father I will gladly relent with this argument but for me, it does seem dubious. Don’t you not think? Why did Matthew change it to “Father” and why did Mark not have Jesus call God “my Father” here?
Just to add, Sam, in Mark’s crucifixion narrative he has Jesus call out “my God” (Eloi). He doesn’t have him use Father here either.
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Sam, I know these comment sections can be quite distracting but focus on my points rather than what Intellect wrote and conflating my points with his. My arguments are succinctly put here too:
http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/analysis-common-evangelical-christian.html
However, I don’t allow comments on my blog so if you want to further interact it will either have to be on Paul’s blog, my FB or via email.
Hope you have a good day
And Ramadan Mubarak to all – just got back from a wonderful prayer session hence the comment at this weird hour.
Peace
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Time to expose this charlatan once again who keeps contradicting his profit. It seems I am going to need to post some of my comments in all caps, hoping that my response will somehow sink into YahyaSlime’s empty skull. Here is an example of why this guy really has no business engaging in debate:
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You’re argument is flawed from the start and also incosistent, the prohibition of calling Allah “my Father” does not mean Allah is not God. Think about it, there are dietary laws that are taught in the Hebrew Bible but done way with in the New Testament, would the Evangelical now seriously argue the God of the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) is not the same God that Paul preached about? The argument is not only flawed but it is inconsistently applied.
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Only a Muhammadan would tie in dietary lies with the nature and concept of God. We are not talking about legislation concerning matters THAT ARE NOT ESSENTIAL TO THE VERY NATURE OF GOD HIMSELF. If that were so then you have provided further proof that your god is Satan since he makes lawful what Yahweh calls an abomination:
“If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies, then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled. That would be detestable in the eyes of the LORD. Do not bring sin upon the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance.” Deuteronomy 24:1-4
“God says, ‘If a husband divorces his wife and she goes from him and belongs to another man, will he still return to her? Will not that land be completely polluted? But you are a harlot with many lovers; Yet you turn to Me,’ declares the LORD. Lift up your eyes to the bare heights and see; Where have you not been violated? By the roads you have sat for them Like an Arab in the desert, And you have polluted a land with your harlotry and with your wickedness.” Jeremiah 3:1-2
Here, the God of the Holy Bible prohibits a man from remarrying a divorcee who has remarried and either been divorced again or widowed. Contrast this to the following Quranic command:
Divorce is twice; then honourable retention or setting free kindly. It is not lawful for you to take of what you have given them unless the couple fear they may not maintain God’s bounds; if you fear they may not maintain God’s bounds, it is no fault in them for her to redeem herself. Those are God’s bounds; do not transgress them. Whosoever transgresses the bounds of God — those are the evildoers. If he divorces her finally, she shall not be lawful to him after that, until she marries another husband. If he divorces her, then it is no fault in them to return to each other, if they suppose that they will maintain God’s bounds. Those are God’s bounds; He makes them clear unto a people that have knowledge. S. 2:229-230
Muslim tradition even goes so far as to say that the woman must engage in sexual intercourse with the man before she can return to her former husband:
Narrated ‘Aisha:
Rifa’a Al-Qurazi divorced his wife irrevocably (i.e. that divorce was the final). Later on ‘Abdur-Rahman bin Az-Zubair married her after him. She came to the Prophet and said, “O Allah’s Apostle! I was Rifa’a’s wife and he divorced me thrice, and then I was married to ‘Abdur-Rahman bin AzZubair, who, by Allah has nothing with him except something like this fringe, O Allah’s Apostle,” showing a fringe she had taken from her covering sheet. Abu Bakr was sitting with the Prophet while Khalid Ibn Said bin Al-As was sitting at the gate of the room waiting for admission. Khalid started calling Abu Bakr, “O Abu Bakr! Why don’t you reprove this lady from what she is openly saying before Allah’s Apostle?” Allah’s Apostle did nothing except smiling, and then said (to the lady), “Perhaps you want to go back to Rifa’a? No, (it is not possible), unless and until you enjoy the sexual relation with him (‘Abdur Rahman), and he enjoys the sexual relation with you.” (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 73, Number 107)
Yahya related to me from Malik from al-Miswar ibn Rifaa al-Quradhi from az-Zubayr ibn Abd ar-Rahman ibn az-Zubayr that Rifaa ibn Simwal divorced his wife, Tamima bint Wahb, in the time of the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, three times. Then she married Abd ar-Rahman ibn az-Zubayr and he turned from her and could not consummate the marriage and so he parted from her. Rifaa wanted to marry her again and it was mentioned to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and he forbade him to marry her. He said, “She is not halal for you until she has tasted the sweetness of intercourse.” (Malik’s Muwatta, Book 28, Number 28.7.17)
Yahya related to me from Malik from Yahya ibn Said from al-Qasim ibn Muhammad that A’isha, the wife of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said when asked whether it was permissible for a man to marry again a wife he had divorced irrevocably if she had married another man who divorced her before consummating the marriage, “Not until she has tasted the sweetness of intercourse.” (Malik’s Muwatta, Book 28, Number 28.7.18)
The man who makes the woman lawful for her former husband is called Muhallil:
Yahya related to me from Malik that he had heard that when asked whether it was permissible for a man to return to his wife if he had divorced her irrevocably and then another man had married her after him and died before consummating the marriage, al-Qasim ibn Muhammad said, “It is not halal for the first husband to return to her.”
Malik said, about the muhallil, that he could not remain in the marriage until he undertook a new marriage. If he had intercourse with her in that marriage, she had her dowry. (Malik’s Muwatta, Book 28, Number 28.7.19)
Allah calls permissible what Yahweh calls shameful and abominable.
So thank you again for employing an argument that now proves that your god is the devil himself.
Returning to the issue at hand, Fatherhood IS AN ESSENTIAL ASPECT OF GOD’S OWN BEING, as can be seen in both the Old and New Testaments:
THEREFORE, to deny this essential, intrinsic character of God is to deny who God is by nature. And since your profit denied this for his deity this only further proves that Allah is not Yahweh, but either Satan himself or a demon who deceived Muhammad and subsequently folks like.
With that nonsense out of the way let me deal with the rest of your garbage:
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As for my point on Mark not having JESUS use the term “Father” for God, it was not countered by anything you wrote. You wrote a lot as well.
You cited Hurtado for some reason. I don’t know why. It’s not relevant to our conversation.
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I am not surprised that you didn’t see the relevance since I have stated over and over again that you are one of the most inept, unintelligent and one of most repulsive, dishonest and deceitful Muslim polemicist out there. If you did have any intelligence then you wouldn’t be a follower of Muhammad.
THEREFORE, let me break it down for you. By citing Hurtado I was proving that EVEN IN MARK’S GOSPEL, JESUS IS IDENTIFIED AS THE UNIQUE DIVINE SON OF GOD, IN PERFECT AGREEMENT WITH MATTHEW’S GOSPEL. In doing so I was refuting your boldfaced lie that Matthew was somehow sinisterly perverting Mark’s Gospel when he wasn’t, since they both perfectly agree on Jesus’ divine identity, but Matthew was merely bringing out the clear implications of Jesus’ words and deeds.
Moreover, your attempt to brush aside Mark’s record OF GOD HIMSELF TESTIFYING THAT JESUS IS HIS BELOVED SON again goes to illustrate my point that you are a charlatan, a con man, a deceiver in perfect imitation of your profit. After all, if Mark records God himself bearing witness to Jesus being his unique beloved Son THEN THAT MEANS MARK PERFECTLY AGREES WITH MATTHEW AND GOES AGAINST YOUR FALSE PROFIT WHO DENIED THAT JESUS WAS THE SON OF HIS GOD! And what makes your response all the more stupid is that JESUS WAS THERE HEARING THE FATHER CALLING HIM HIS BELOVED SON WITHOUT CHRIST OBJECTING TO SUCH A WITNESS, AND YET YOU STILL HAVE THE AUDACITY TO SAY THAT THESE EXAMPLES FROM MARK DON’T PROVE YOUR POINT BECAUSE IT ISN’T JESUS WHO IS SAYING IT! Talk about an embarrassment!
But since you are glutton for humiliation I am now going to post all the place where Jesus self-identifies. Do check out my next post.
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Sam your own bible commands you to show respect for other people. You delight in speaking evil and humiliating others which is why I have banned you numerous times from this blog.
Try and be civil in your speech. If your next comment contains gratuitous insults I will delete it. Thank you
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I continue with my response to YahyaSlime’s drivel.
Let’s see what Jesus says about his relationship to God in Mark’s Gospel. Jesus not only referred to God as his Father and the Father of his followers,
“Whoever therefore is ashamed of Me and of My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed when He comes in the glory OF HIS FATHER with the holy angels.” Mark 8:38
“And when you stand praying, forgive if you have anything against anyone, so that YOUR FATHER who is in heaven may also forgive you your sins. But if you do not forgive, neither will YOUR FATHER who is in heaven forgive your sins.” Mark 11:25-26
“He said, ‘ABBA, FATHER, all things are possible for You. Remove this cup from Me; yet not what I will, but what You will.'” Mak 14:36
He even called himself God’s Son in a unique, divine sense:
“He began to speak to them in parables. ”A man planted a vineyard, and set a hedge around it, and dug a pit for the winepress, and built a tower, and rented it to vinedressers, and went to a far country. At harvest time he sent a servant to the vinedressers to receive from them some of the fruit of the vineyard. But they seized him and beat him and sent him away empty-handed. Then he sent another servant to them. They threw stones at him, and wounded him in the head, and sent him away shamefully handled. Still he sent another, and they killed him. And there were many others. Some they beat, and some they killed. Having yet HIS ONE WELL-BELOVED SON, he sent him last to them, saying, “They will REVERE MY SON.” But those vinedressers said among themselves, “THIS IS THE HEIR. Come, let us kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.” So they took him and killed him and threw him out of the vineyard. What then will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and kill the vinedressers and give the vineyard to others.'” Mark 12:1-9
“But concerning that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor THE SON, but only THE FATHER.” Mark 13:32
“But He kept silent and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked Him, ‘Are You the Christ, THE SON OF THE BLESSED?’ Jesus said, ‘I AM. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.”” Mark 14:61-62
In the last three examples Jesus self-identifies as God’s unique beloved Son and Heir who is greater than prophets since they were simply God’s servants, greater than all human beings and angels, and second only to the Father, and who is divine Son of Man who sits enthroned as Lord at the right of the Father, all of which contradicts the teachings of the false prophet Muhammad, thereby exposing him as an antichrist and imposter. And yet YahyaSlime has the audacity to appeal to Mark’s Gospel of all Gospels to try defend the lies of his false prophet!
What makes this all the more embarrassing for YahyaSlime is that even the demons confessed and worshiped Jesus as the Son of God who possessed divine power to completely subdue and destroy them,
“For He had healed many, so that all who had diseases pressed on Him to touch Him. When unclean spirits saw Him, THEY FELL DOWN BEFORE HIM, crying out, ‘YOU ARE THE SON OF GOD.’ But He sternly ordered them not to make Him known.” Mark 3:10-12
“They went to the other side of the sea to the region of the Gadarenes. When He had come out of the boat, immediately a man with an unclean spirit came out of the tombs and met Him. 3 He lived among the tombs. And no one could constrain him, not even with chains, because he had often been bound with shackles and chains. But he had pulled the chains apart and broken the shackles to pieces. And no one could subdue him. Always, night and day, he was in the mountains and in the tombs, crying out and cutting himself with stones. But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran up AND KNEELED DOWN BEFORE HIM, and cried out with a loud voice, ‘What have You to do with me, Jesus, SON OF THE MOST HIGH GOD? I adjure You by God, do not torment me.’ For Jesus said to him, ‘Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!’ Then He asked him, ‘What is your name?’ He answered, ‘My name is Legion. For we are many.’ And he begged Him repeatedly not to send them away out of the country.” Mark 5:1-10
And yet YahyaSlime’s profit denied all of this! This shows that even the demons were smarter than your own profit!
Ironically, you appealed to Mark 15:34 where Jesus on the cries out from the cross Eloi, “My God,” without bothering to refer to the fact that Matthew’s Gospel says the same thing,
“About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, ‘Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?’ which means, ‘My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?'” Matthew 27:46
And also conveniently forgot to mention that both Mark and Matthew concur regarding the reaction of the Centurion at the cross:
“When the centurion who stood facing Him saw that He cried out and gave up the spirit, he said, ‘Truly, this Man WAS THE SON OF GOD.'” Mark 15:39
“When the centurion and those with him, keeping watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, they feared greatly and said, ‘Truly HE WAS THE SON OF GOD!'” Matthew 27:54
Now watch how in your deceit and dishonesty try to run to Matthew or Luke to try to contradict Mark’s testimony concerning Jesus’ words at the trial or what the centurion, which will only further expose you as an inconsistent charlatan since you first want to use Mark to show how Matthew changed and improved things, but then will turn to Matthew and/or Luke to call into question the witness of Mark to Christ’s Sonship. However, I sure do hope you bring Matthew or Luke up to discount Mark’s witness since if you do THEN THIS WILL PROVE THAT THEY WEREN’T DECEPTIVELY TRYING TO IMPROVE ON MARK’S PORTRAIT OF CHRIST WHEN YOU HAVE PLACES WHERE MATTHEW OR LUKE ARE WATERING DOWN THE TESTIMONY TO CHRIST’S UNIQUE SONSHIP!
YahyaSlime’s humiliation is far from over since I am now going to turn the tables against him in the next post.
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Williams, do I need to repost all the filth and venom spewed by your fellow Muslims like Faiz and others to show just how inconsistent you are? You really need to have yourself examined since your utter hatred of evangelical Christians blinds you to the extent that you will overlook the insults and blasphemies hurled at us by your ikhwaan, and yet whine and complain when I or others give them a taste of their own medicine.
START PRACTICING WHAT YOU PREACH!
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Ok he’s the deal I’ll start practicing what I preach and YOU will behave civilly? Deal?
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BTW Williams, since you liked Yahya’s garbage will you also like my dumping out his trash in the trash bin. So will you now give me a like? 😉
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Sounds like a deal to me, buddy ole’ pal!
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Good. I look forward to more pleasant exchanges
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In this third part of my rebuttal to Yahya I am now going to show that the Quran narrates the same exact same story but with vast differences and major verbal variations and/or contradictions.
My first example will be Lot’s story in the Quran:
So, when the envoys came to the folk of Lot, he said, ‘Surely you are a people unknown to me!’ They said, ‘Nay, but we have brought thee that concerning which they were doubting. We have come to thee with the truth, and assuredly we speak truly. So set forth, thou with thy family, in a watch of the night, and follow after the backs of them, and let not any one of you turn round; and depart unto the place YOU ARE COMMANDED.’ And We decreed for him that commandment, that the last remnant of those should be cut off in the morning. And the people of the city came rejoicing. He said, ‘These are my guests; put me not to shame, and fear God, and do not degrade me.’ They said, ‘Have we not forbidden thee all beings?’ He said, ‘These are my daughters, if you would be doing.’ By thy life, they wandered blindly in their dazzlement, and the Cry seized them at the sunrise, and We turned it uppermost nethermost and rained on it stones of baked clay. Surely in that are signs for such as mark; surely it is on a way yet remaining; surely in that is a sign for believers. S. 15.61-77 Arberry
In the above report Lot fears for the safety of his guests even though he has already been informed that they are messengers sent to destroy his people. Why, then, would Lot even worry about their safety seeing that he was made aware of their supernatural origin? Did he actually think that these beings weren’t powerful enough or that God wouldn’t intervene to save them? Hence, the Qur’anic error in placing these disclosures before the visit of the townsmen leads to a somewhat irrational situation.
The author(s) finally get(s) the story right:
And when Our messengers came to Lot, he was troubled on their account and distressed for them, and he said, ‘This is a fierce day.’ And his people came to him, running towards him; and erstwhile they had been doing evil deeds. He said, ‘O my people, these are my daughters; they are cleaner for you. So fear God, and do not degrade me in my guests. What, is there not one man among you of a right mind?’ They said, ‘Thou knowest we have no right to thy daughters, and thou well knowest what we desire.’ He said, ‘O would that I had power against you, or might take refuge in a strong pillar!’ They said, ‘Lot, we are messengers of thy Lord. They shall not reach thee; so set forth, thou with thy family, in a watch of the night, and let not any one of you turn round, excepting thy wife; surely she shall be smitten by that which smites them. Their promised time is the morning; is the morning not nigh?’ So when Our command came, We turned it uppermost nethermost, and rained on it stones of baked clay, one on another, marked with thy Lord, and never far from the evildoers. S. 11:77-83 Arberry
Notice that in this report the angelic guests disclose their identities after the altercation with the townsmen, making sense as to why Lot feared for the security of his guests. He didn’t know that these were angels who could fend for themselves. Moreover, in the first pericope the angels tell Lot their plans before the men come seeking the guests, whereas in the above version the angels only inform Lot after the men have arrived to rape them.
My second example will be taken from the story of Moses and the burning bush.
FIRST VERSION
Has the story of Moses Reached Thee? Behold he saw a fire: So he said to his family, “Tarry ye: I perceive a fire; perhaps I can Bring you some burning brand Therefrom, or find some guidance At the fire.” But when he came to the fire, a voice Was heard: “O Moses! “Verily I am thy Lord! Therefore (in My presence) Put off thy shoes: thou art In the sacred valley Tuwa. “I have chosen thee: Listen, then, to the inspiration (Sent to thee). “Verily, I am God: There is no god but I: So serve thou Me (only), And establish regular prayer For celebrating My praise. Verily the hour is coming- My design is to keep it Hidden- for every soul To its reward By the measure of its endeavor. Therefore let not such as Believe not therein But follow their own Lusts, divert thee therefrom, Lest thou perish!” “And what is that in thy right hand, O Moses?” He said, “It is My rod: on it I lean; with it I beat down fodder For my flocks; and In it I find Have Other uses.” (God) said, “Throw it, O Moses!” He threw it, and behold it was a snake Active in motion. (God) said “Seize it And fear not: We shall return it at once To its former condition… Now draw thy hand Close to thy side: It shall come forth white (And shining), without harm (or stain),- As a another Sign,- In order that we may show thee (Two) of our Greater Signs. Go thou to Pharaoh For he has indeed Transgressed all bounds.” S. 20:9-24
SECOND VERSION
Behold! Moses said to his family “I perceive A fire; soon will I bring you From there some information, Or I will Bring you A burning brand to light our fuel That ye may Warm yourselves.” But when he came To the (Fire), a voice Was heard: “Blessed are those In the Fire and those around: And Glory to God, The Lord of the Worlds. “O Moses! Verily I am God, the Exalted In Might, the wise!… “Now do throw thy rod!” But when he saw it Moving (of its own accord) As if it had been a snake, He turned back in Retreat, And retraced not his steps: “O Moses!” (it was said), “Fear not: truly, in My presence, Those called as apostles Have no fear,- But if Any have done wrong And have thereafter substituted Good to take the place of the evil, Truly, I am Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. “Now put thy hand into Thy bosom, and it will Come forth white without stain (Or harm): (These are) among The nine Signs (thou wilt take) To Pharaoh and his people: For they are A people Rebellious in transgression.” But when Our Signs came To them, that should opened their eyes, they said: “This is Sorcery manifest!” And they rejected those Signs In iniquity and arrogance, Though their Souls were convinced Thereof: so see what was The end of those Who acted corruptly. S. 27:7-14
THIRD VERSION
Now when Moses had fulfilled The term, and was traveling With his family, he perceived A fire in the direction of Mount Tur. He said To his family: “Tarry ye; I perceive a fire; I hope To bring you from there Some information, or a burning Firebrand that ye may warm yourselves.” But when he came To the (Fire), a voice was heard from the right back Of the valley, from a tree In hallowed ground: “O Moses! Verily I am God, the Lord of the Worlds … Now do thou throw thy rod! But when he saw it Moving (of its own accord) As if it had been a snake, He turned back in retreat and retraced not his steps: “O Moses!” (It was said), “Draw near, and fear not; For thou art of those Who are secure. “Move thy hand into thy bosom, and it will Come forth to thy side (To guard) against fear. Those are the two credentials From thy Lord to Pharaoh And his Chiefs: for truly They are a people Rebellious and wicked.” S. 28:29-33
Here we have the same exact story told with major conflict in the exact words uttered by Allah and Moses.
I have tons more examples but I will limit myself to one more.
And remember We said: “Enter this town, and eat of the plenty therein As ye wish; but enter The gate with humility, In posture and in words, And We shall forgive you your faults And increase (the portion of) Those who do good.” But the transgressors Changed the word from that Which had been given them; So we sent on the transgressors A plague from heaven, for that they infringed (Our command) repeatedly. S. 2:58-59
Compare:
And remember it was said to them: “Dwell in this town And eat therein as you wish, But say The word of humility and enter the gate In a posture of humility: We shall forgive you Your faults; We shall increase (The portion of) those Who do good.” But the transgressors among them Changed the word from that Which had Been given them So we sent on them a plague from heaven For that they repeatedly transgressed. S. 7:161-162
Of particular interest is A. Yusef Ali’s footnote:
These verses, 58-59, may be compared to vii. 161-162. There are two verbal differences. Here (ii. 58) we have “enter the town” and in vii. 161 we have “dwell in the town.” Again in ii. 59 here we have “infringed (Our command),” and in vii. 162, we have “transgressed.” The verbal differences make no difference to the sense [sic]. (Ali, The Holy Quran-Translation and Commentary, p. 31, f. 72)
Make no difference to the sense? Are you kidding me? Seeing that Yahya and others believe that Allah authored the Quran and that he dictated it word for word to Muhammad, this means Allah was incapable of narrating the same exact same story with the exact words uttered by the people mentioned in these parallel accounts, even though Allah is supposed to be omniscient!
Therefore, whereas we would expect 3 DIFFERENT WRITERS summarizing, condensing, rearranging their narration of the same events, WE WOULD NOT EXPECT A SINGLE WRITER WHO IS SUPPOSED TO BE THE OMNISCIENT CREATOR OF ALL THINGS TO NARRATE THE SAME EVENT WITH MAJOR AND OFTEN CONTRADICTORY DETAILS AND SPEECHES!
Thus, Yahya’s criticism of the Gospels comes back to haunt him since his argument can be used more forcefully against his Quran, proving it is not God’s word, but an impious fraud concocted by an antichrist and false prophet.
So I want to thank Yahya for again giving me the opportunity to put him in his place and to expose Muhammad for what he truly was. Much appreciated Yahya!
Now unless he has anything honest, consistent or worthwhile to say this will be it for me.
I want to thank Williams for allowing my comments to published for the benefit of the rest. Hopefully, this will show Muslims HOW NOT TO ARGUE their case with Christians.
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With the name of Allah the most Gracious the Merciful
Shame-on: //the Quran narrates the same exact same story but with vast differences and major verbal variations and/or contradictions.//
Silly, the stories of prophet Lot (p) are two different questions asked at two different times, and thus, the answers too are different. So you are wrong.
Also with regards to the account of prophet Moses (p) encounter with fire, those describe one incident but the different accounts are complementary. This is something that is found in other parts of this story or, indeed, other stories in the Qur’an, such as the story of Mary and Jesus. Bear in mind that prophet Moses definitely did not speak Arabic, so when the Qur’an quotes him, it is Allah’s telling of the event. So it makes sense that if the story is told more than once, God will use different words to convey different emphasis of the event for the reader. Also that the Qur’an is about symmetrical structure and rhyme one can only appreciate if is recited in Arabic not in English renderings. Many Scholars have studied this miraculous nature of the structural unity of the Qur’an, and have begun to show clearly that individual chapters, both short and long, are indeed characterized by a high degree of unity. Figures likeAngelika Neuwirth, Pierre Crapon de Caprona, Mustansir Mir, Muhammad Abdel Haleem, Matthias Zahniser, Neal Robinson, Carl Ernst, and, especially, Michel Cuypers and Raymond Farrin.
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Sam
You wrote a lot, I just skimmed it.
Thanks for those refs from Mark. Appreciated. Putting aside Matthew changing that statement we have established you believe Jesus used both “God” and “Father” and he used them interchangeably.That means there’s no difference between the two terms – the nature of God is still considered to be the same regardless of which title Jesus chose to use to refer to God, right?
Now if, you were forbidden to use the term Father would that mean there’s a change in the nature of God? No, of course not. We are talking about terminologies.Thus, this is comparable to the NT doing away with the dietary laws in the Hebrew Bible.
This is the point I have been driving at all this time. I hope you can appreciate it.
I’ve just finished a video responding to your colleague David. I hope complete a really eye-opening one on William Lane Craig shortly. I will check back in on this thread, let me know what you think of my point.
Have a good day Sam and all
Peace
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