I am very sad to hear that Brother Ismaeel has left Islam. See discussion here
Someone on Facebook wrote the following:
This is a common progression. Person converts to or gets into Islam. Person starts “refuting” before actually learning. As a result, person gets *refuted* because you need to *learn* before you can *refute*. Person blames Islam rather than THAT for their inability to answer certain arguments (whether in a debate or even within their own mind). Person leaves Islam.
My own leaving of Islam (for about a week) was based on a mistaken understanding of what Islam actually teaches. Happily a knowledgable brother put me right in the end! I pray that God will guide Brother Ismaeel back to the straight path. It can be very difficult being a revert sometimes..
Categories: Islam
Blogging Theology 
Who is Brother Ismaeel? Do not worry. He is confused do not know Islam and will be back InshaAllah. I told Christians not to rejoice when Paul Williams left. Paul Williams is back and now his faith is very strong and I predict he will not leave Islam again. The “Holy Spirit” of Islam is inhabiting him and all of us. I am joking about the Holy Spirit because we do believe Holy Spirit is not God at all. We believe in Holy and Evil(Satanic) Spirits and they are all not God.
Man can be so evil through his spirit and can be evil(satanic) spirit and a man can strive to do the work of God through his spirit and a man can be a Holy Spirit.
Thanks.
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I don’t know. But brother I think you have something to do with Surrey uni
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Here is the video that Brother Ismael explains why he left Islam. He knows Arabic very well and knows the Hadith and shows all the narrations clearly.
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But he is just confused and doesn’t know Islam according to intellect above lol
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Wow a Muslim for 16 years finally figures it out. Well there is hope for you yet Paul.
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He’s now a messianic ebionite christian! Does not believe in the trinity!!! Lol.!!
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Hi Jacob, do you have any proof for this?
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Hi, yes, his facebook account is neil littlejohn. He writes about it in the comments section. I use to follow his you tube channel when he was muslim. He was devout trinitarian converted to salafi islam, then sufi islam then quran only before this conversion
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Who knows in a few years neil/ismaaeel may convert to orthodox judaism, and then mormonism and even buddism!! Lol
I think he’s attention seeking! He’s got a big following from the Islamaphobes. david wood sent him a message saying he’s praying for him! And he replied by saying ‘thanks, keep up the good work’!!! LOLZZ
He’s joined the camp of the Islamaphobes! No doubt he’ll be invited on to fox news (!) to give his ‘expert’ opinion on Islam!
Well, good luck to him trying to defend the genocide in the OT. It makes the Quran look tame by comparison!!
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It was not “genocide” – it was only for the borders of the land of Israel; and only for Israel for a time; and there is no more theocratic Israel for today. It ended in 70 AD. Modern 1948 Israel is not Biblical Israel. They have to repent and believe in the Messiah Jesus. they are rejecting their own God. He who rejects the Son rejects the Father also.
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According to the standards of today, not only was it genocide, but ethnic cleansing as well.
And no, you can’t say it was for a particular time and place, blah, blah… You Quran-bashing christians will never let Muslins contextualise the incidents mentioned in the Quran. You hold us to the standards if today. Well guess what, the same applies to you!
Jesus condoned ethnic cleansing, rape and genocide.
This is what u do to Muslims, so right back at ya!!
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Because Muslims never “contextualized” those harsh passages until the abolition of the Caliphate in 1924, but Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. They carried out their all out Jihads against the world all the time until stopped. The modern Islamic terrorists movements (Al Banna, Brotherhood, Sayid Qutb, Ben Laden, Al Qaeda, Hamas, IS, Boko Haram, etc.) – they all said, “to hell with the modern scholars after 1924; we are returning to original Islam of Jihad, Muhammad and the Rightly Guided Caliphs, etc.”.
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There are things in the Quran and Hadith that I don’t agree with. However, I choose to remain a Muslim because I don’t think revelation has to be in line with my personal tastes. If you leave Islam because it doesn’t teach the things you want it to teach, then you are more interested in worshiping yourself than God.
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What good is your god intending when he commands rape? Which of his attributes are being displayed by this command?
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Kid, you’re an idiot.
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How true. Legalized rape cannot be from God. Islam has to adapt – or die.
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The Quran doesn’t sanction legalized rape. Also, Islam has been around for over 1400 years. It is not disappearing anytime soon, much to the dismay of random online trolls.m
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MarcusCalpurniusPiso
The Quran does not legalize rape at all. It is forbidden to rape anyone. The Quran only allows marriage before sex including slaves. There is no where in the Quran that says a slave can be raped without marriage.
Ken Temple, the verse he read said the slave should have a bridal money from her master and that is marriage. It did not say rape, force, etc. It is illegal to marry a free woman who has husband. Slave woman it is considered under the masters care and is no longer with the husband and so she can be MARRIED, MARRIED, MARRIED by giving her(slave woman) the dowry(marriage) money just like any other woman but not rape her or force her to have sex.
The Muslim owner knows if he force anything on his slave, the hell or punishment awaits him. It is clear in the Quran and Hadith, if any Muslim force a slave for anything then punishment awaits him.
Thanks.
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According to 4:24, the Qur’an does not see any wrongdoing in Muslims having sex with captive women, even if these women are married and their husbands are still alive. This indicates that rape is tolerated, as captive women, even in the unlikely case of agreeing to sexual intercourse, would still be having that intercourse under compulsion.
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MarcusCalpurniusPiso
see this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uRfqorj65Y
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No, christianity kills the married women and only spares the virgins to be shared out amongst bloodthirsty soldiers who have just massacred their entire families, including young boys, according to numbers 31. That’s really humane and totally according to the geneva convention? What’s this obsession OT has with virgins???
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Intellect wrote…
“The Quran does not legalize rape at all. It is forbidden to rape anyone”
Wrong Islam does not have RAPE full stop. There is no such thing as RAPE… its illegal sex or property damage.
https://bloggingtheology.net/2015/08/19/1810/
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The brother (ex brother) seems still stuck in fundamentalist reading and understanding.
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It is clear in the verse that, a dowry must be given to the slave woman just like any other woman in marriage. It is illegal if the dowry is not given to the slave woman just like any other woman or if the slave woman did not accept the dowry.
This condition, the detractors of Islam or someone like our brother Ismaeel forgets or will not see but link it to a hadith which can also not be 100% interpreted.
The difference is that, the slave(captive) woman can marry if she so wish because she is already no longer with her husband. A free woman according to the Quran must divorce from her husband before re marrying. But a captive(slave) woman does not need a divorce from her husband because from the perspective, she is no longer with him and can decide her fate.
If the captive(slave) does not accept the dowry it is illegal for anyone to have sex with her. Any Muslim knows about that except our Brother Ismaeel and may Allah open his heart with thorough knowledge about Islam.
Thanks.
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BRun do tell what is your understanding of the verse that says “Forbidden to you are believing woman already married EXCEPT what your right hand posses”?
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Anyone please correct me if I am wrong but there is a verse in the Bible where God is telling the Israelites to kill all the inhabitants of a particular tribe or tribes except for the virgins. The verse in the Bible is more problematic than the queanic verse where it allows relations with those of the right hand but it does not virtually prescribe it like the Bible. Moreover, the Qur’an says to be good to your slaves and to free them. Raping is not consistent with being good. Thus, relations with with those of the right hand needs to be consensual to fit with the Qur’an’s other verses dealing with those of the right hand.
And since Trinitarian Christians believe Jesus is also God, then they believe that Jeaus personally revealed that verse.
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First Brexit and now this. I am really shocked.
But I have to say that Ismail only left Islam officially now. He became a Quranist a couple of months ago and was considered an apostate. But this makes it worse because he will be used against Islam by islamophobic groups.
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Indeed you are right.
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“He became a Quranist a couple of months ago and was considered an apostate.”
Why an apostate? I think we should all calm down a little. Relax.
The brother “Ismaeel” also seems a bit uptight. Instead of focussing on “rape of captives of war” we should focus on the option of Islam as a force for peace for good. This negative agenda is a dead end.
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Nadir wrote…
” He became a Quranist a couple of months ago and was considered an apostate.”
Yah that seems to be a pattern. Muslim can no longer defend Mohamed’s moral depravity, he or she can not longer excuse or deny the authentic ahaddeth that testify to this moral depravity. So the solution is to throw out all of the ahadeeth and just go with the Quran.
But that is only short term, since the Quran is just as morally depraved as its prophet.
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Burhan wrote…
“Instead of focussing on “rape of captives of war” we should focus on the option of Islam as a force for peace for good. This negative agenda is a dead end.”
LOL let me laugh again LOL
Yes peace through sex with married slave woman. LOL
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“Yes peace through sex with married slave woman. LOL”
There is no bottom line for your stupidity, is there?
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Once again we see why the Islamic rule on apostates is indeed just and very important.
First of all we know that the Bible has the same rule about “raping slaves”. So anyone who attacks Islam but not the Bible is a bigot.
The issue of slaves is deliberately misunderstood. Islam does allow intercourse with slaves just like it allows intercourse with a normal wife. But that does not mean that intercourse can be enforced on slaves if they refuse. Marital rape is not allowed in Islam and therefore rape of slaves is not neither. The intercourse has to be consensual.
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Nadir wrote… “Once again we see why the Islamic rule on apostates is indeed just and very important. ”
Nadir what is the rule on apostates? Do you think those rules should be carried out on this fellow?
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I am not supporting vigilant justice. But this person will probably harm Islam severely.
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Nadir so what should be done to him under a Islamic state following sharia law?
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Nadir, the apostate in question will only harm are stupid kids on the Internet. If you think a random guy on YouTube will harm Islam severely then you are delusional. How old are you?
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Kamir kind of funny how you just ignore Nadir blatant promotion of ISIS ideology
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Paul Wrote…
“My own leaving of Islam (for about a week) was based on a mistaken understanding of what Islam actually teaches. ”
Paul care to tell us what the mistaken understanding was? I recall you where convinced by who you called one of Islams greatest apologists that Islam was not for you. You flat out called the Quran wrong because it says Islam is easy to follow, and you found fasting to be to difficult. Or something like that.
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Hey trinitarian christians, you guys can stop with the celebrations, the guy converted to messianic ebionite christisnity! He does not believe in the divinity of Christ. For you guys he’s a heretic!!! Lol!
Btw, all you christians, if your going to condemn the verse in the Quran regarding ‘what your right hand posseses’ then be consistant and condemn The OT, Numbers 31. It’s far, far worse. I’ll quote it for you later. Don’t have time just yet! Remember what your sheikh james white always rants on about..’equal scales’!!!
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Jacob
He won’t be killed for being choosing heretical christianity – any danger to him comes from moonotheist types.
Number 31 is not an open-ended command that I am obliged to follow – islam’s commands to commit violence are open-ended and, worse, the guy who committed and permitted the worst of the savagery in your holy books is the guy whose example you are obliged to follow.
We are not fooled – we know you guys are trying to deflect the conversation away from addressing islam’s obvious violence. Tu quoque arguments don’t save islam from this charge.
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D
What do you mean by open ended? The verse said kill everyone and take the virgins for yourselves and you are saying it is not open ended. You will defend your worst verses commanded by Jesus but to blame a verse that says you can marry your slave.
Luke 19:27
New International Version
But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them–bring them here and kill them in front of me.'”
New Living Translation
And as for these enemies of mine who didn’t want me to be their king–bring them in and execute them right here in front of me.'”
English Standard Version
But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.’”
TRINITARIAN CHRISTIANS WILL ALWAYS FIND SOMETHING TO DEFEND A WORSE VERSE LIKE THE ABOVE BY JESUS CHRIST THAT CLEARLY IS VIOLENCE TO THE EXTREME, BUT WILL TURN TO BLAME ISLAM FOR A VERSE THAT IS NO MORE NEAR WHAT THE VIOLENCE JESUS IS COMMANDING.
Thanks.
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I didn’t say you have to start committing the genocide commanded by Yahwe,/Jesus in numbers 31, and then to share out the virgin girls!!! I said if you are to br consistent then you have to condemn this kind of behaviour! Because you guys are frothing at the mouth when it comes to verses of the Quran!! As Mufti James White goes on and on and on about ‘equal scales’. And if you are not prepared to condemn the bible for far worse treatment of the enemy and their women folk, then don’t do it to the Quran! Seem fair? Right?
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D
But if you were good practicing christians and had knowledge like your great reformer john calvin then of course you would punish heresy by death, just like calvin burned michael sevetus! But secularism won’t let you behave like this anymore!
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Oh how very, very convenient Ken!! No dude, standards don’t work like that! If you condemn muslims for killing apostates, then by the same standards, you have to condemn calvin for burning sevetus, not excuse his behaviour as ‘he got it from the catholics’ lol. And no, he was not wrong, he was following his scriptures, he was a far better and knowledgeable christian than you could ever dream of being!
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Numbers 31
They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses and killed everyman. They captured the midiian women and children and took all the midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. They burned all the towns and brought all the spoils and plunder to Moses. Moses was angry with the officers of the army…have you all allowed the women to live, he asked…Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, BUT SAVE FOR YOURSELVES EVERY GIRL WHO HAS NEVER SLEPT WITH A MAN!
It doesn’t say marry each virgin girl, does it. What do you think these soldiers did to the girls? Sang lullabies to them! I By how you judge the incident in the Quran, using the same standards, these men raped these virgins! And it was endorsed by jesus!
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Right because the bible is only one passage or one verse. SMH
DEUT 21:12-
When you go to war against your enemies and the Lord your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, 11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. 12 Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails 13 and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. 14 If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.
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Yeah, after butchering her entire family, including the young boys, let her mourn a whole MONTH, coz that’s how long it takes to get over a massacre!! Please! Lol!
And why are you using another portion of the bible, you never let muslims explain things through other verses. Stick to numbers 31. And explain why peace loving lamb of god sanctioned mass murder and taking virgins as slaves!!!
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Oh I see its wrong to shave their heads, and clip their nails and to let them morn for an entire month before you FREE THEM and take them as your WIFE.
YAh its much better to keep them as slaves, have sex with them outside of marriage with your four wives, even if they are married.
Yah your moral compass is slightly eschew.
One more thing, I don’t confine you to one verse of the Quran. Show me another verse that says you are to marry the slave woman before you have sex with them. Or make them your wife before you have sex with them. Show me ahadeeth, show me a Tasfir.
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Of course, it was really humane of jesus the genocide commanding god to butcher the father, AND mother and young brothers of those poor young virgins and distribute amongst the murderers and if these murderers had the hots for the pretty ones, after forcing them to mutilate themselves, by shaving their heads!!, marry them! Yeah, these poor little girls would want to get married to such monsters!! Genocidal jesus got rid of the problem of married women by putting them to Death!!!
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Come on Jacob show us the verse in teh quran or hadeeth come on you can find one can’t you lol
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The Baptist movements began before the total modern secularism/enlightenment movement. The Baptists said 3 main things: 1. Infant baptism was wrong. A person must be old enough to understand the basics of the gospel, understand that they are a sinner, and then there must be repentance and faith first, then baptism.
2. That there should not be a state government that is totally unified to one denomination of Christianity or religion. There should be freedom of religion. The state government should allow for freedom of religion. That is basic Baptist principles. Therefore, the Baptists in Europe and USA were the first to object to punishments and death penalties for heresy or apostasy. (Both Anabaptists (later became the Mennonites and Amish) and Reformed Baptists and General Baptists.)
3. Each local church has authority within itself; no bishops over them or councils, etc.
Calvin was right on many things; but wrong on those 3 things. But he inherited the idea of punishments from the Roman Catholic culture of centuries in Europe, that goes all the way back to Theodosius in 380-392 AD.
the city government of Geneva condemned Servetus after much trial; and Calvin wrote letters to him pleading with him to repent. Calvin did not burn Servertus, the government did; but Calvin did approve of it.
Here is an interesting exchange between Brother Rachid (Moroccan former Muslim) and another Muslim who called in from Sweden. The Arabic is translated into English.
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Oh yeah! Blame the catholics!! No Ken, calvin knew more about christianity than you. He’s one of your major theologians. What he did to sevetus was according to the bible because as you baptists always rant about, and calvin believed in, is sola scriptura.
You have to condemn calvin as an intolerant, vicious murderer. Because that’s how you portray muslims! Double standards! Equal scales!
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No; we can appreciate some things about some one in the past; and disagree with others. Anyone with a brain can do that. Re-baptizing oneself was punished by death by drowning. (see the case of Feliz Manz and others ) That was wrong and thank God western Europe and USA realized the state governments were wrong. What they did to Servetus was not according to the NT. The NT changes some things from theocratic Israel of the OT.
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sorry for typo; I meant “thank God that Europe and USA realized that CHURCH-STATE governments are wrong.”
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Ken, i see the OT laws are not applicable now! But it was ok for jesus to sanction killing thousands of men, women and boys and share out the virgins amongst bloodthirsty soldiers who had just massacred their entire families, in THE PAST!!!! What happened ken, did jesus read the geneva convention and realise what he commanded in the past was bad and wrong? Was what jesus commanded centuries ago wrong? And then he realised his mistake? Do you condemn the old, vengeful jesus and his OT???
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You misunderstand the purpose of those laws for only Israel only within the borders of Israel, which was fullfilled in 1 Kings 4:21-25.
Christians have always had that view, that the NT fulfills the OT. Christians have always understood the law of Moses in 3 parts.
1. The Moral law is still applicable. Basic right and wrong laws.
2. The Civil law (punishments as state government as Israel)
is not applicable.
3. The Ceremonial Law is no longer applicable.
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no, they did not rape the young girls. (the Numbers 31 passage) There are other passages that prove this. They were allowed to grow in freedom; and when they became older for marriageable age, probably several years later; then they could be married. As Intellect claims for Islam, “Marriage; Marriage; Marriage”.
But the Bible has clearer texts that show this; whereas in Islam, both in that verse in the Qur’an (Surah 4:24) and the Hadith, “those whom your right hand possess”; and the fact that the Islamic soldiers came to Muhammad and said, “What can we do? We are suffering since our wives are not with us !! and basically Muhammad gave them permission to go for it. It is all there for anyone willing to study your own Hadiths, etc.
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If the Israelites wanted to MARRY (not just have sex with married slave woman) the female in question was to take off her slave clothes, clip her hair and nails and allowed 30 days to morn her family. Then she could be married and she was a free woman. If the man divorced her he could not sell her back into slavery she was a free woman and could go where she pleased. Unlike ISLAM which has the following.
1. Sex with Married slave woman
2. Re sale or keeping slave woman in bondage
3. Don’t have to marry slave woman to have sex
4. No morning period for slave woman.
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So after 30 days the woman would be happy to have conjugal relations with her Israelite captor?
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OT laws like that are no longer applicable to New Testament context/time of new covenant churches spreading out to all the nations. Since Jesus, NT, and 70 AD, things are different.
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Jesus disagreed. Towards the end of his ministry:
‘Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, “The teachers of religious law and the Pharisees are the official interpreters of the law of Moses. So practice and obey whatever they tell you..’
Mathew 23.
You follow a different religion to that of Jesus Ken.
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Nope; Jesus said “beware of the teachings of the Pharisees” – Matthew 16:12
The verses in Matthew 23 don’t mean what you say they mean; you have interpreted them. They have to be understood as “in so far as they interpret the law of Moses correctly, obey them”. It cannot be “whatever they say” in light of Matthew 16:112
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Kamak what are you saying that Captive woman would not want to have sex with their captors?
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‘Kamak what are you saying that Captive woman would not want to have sex with their captors’
You tell me.
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Yeah, yeah. excuses, excuses!
Those genocidal, blood thirsty soldiers, who just massacred, THOUSANDS of men and BOYS, and WOMEN, in numbers 31, were going to wait around patiently for 30 days and sing lullabies to the virgins and then sweetly propose to them and live happily ever after! If we Muslims said this, you’d all be jumping up and down, frothing at the mouth and screaming, LIERS!!!
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And i’d like to see this verse where the slaves were to be married and freed?
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‘ But save for yourselves every girl who has not slept with a man’ !!
Where does it mention marriage!
Why didn’t Jesus say, marry the virgins if that’s what he intended??? And what’s the obsession with virgins???
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And how come peaceful, loving jesus commands the killing of boys and the animals??? What crime did they commit? I thought he’s all about the love!!! Where did all the love go??
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And why are you christians so abusive and hateful towards, Prophet Mohammad? I thought you were commanded to love your enemy??? You obviously regard him as an enemy, right? Love!! You can’t even show respect to him? Why is the Jesus in the bible soooo contradictory?? Why did he command you to do something that you obviously can’t? You christians say you love your enemies but that’s not true is it? Prophet Mohammed, is the prime example?
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Love does not mean you cannot criticize someone’s belief and behavior. Besides, he is dead. None of this has anything to do with personal attacks to a person; rather critical thinking about the beliefs, behavior, and historical results of those bad beliefs and bad behaviors.
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You have a very strange understanding of love!! If my wife called me a rapist and a Paedophile, i wouldn’t regard that as loving!!!
Didn’t jesus the god man, know that his worshipers would have to be abusive to sell their brand, particularly to Prophet Mohammed, so then why command you guys to ‘love thy enemy’ . Very contradictory and strange?
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Do you mean that if you were all of those things, your wife should just keep quiet? No, realizing the truth is the first step toward getting help.
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Do you Christians condemn the old vengeful jesus who sanctions genocide and taking virgins as sex slaves and the OT??? Double standards!!!
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He never did that. Genocide is never done; even to the Canaanites and Amorites, etc. – they Canaanites in what is today Lebanon were called Phoenicians and there was no command to go outside of the borders of Israel. And there was no taking virgins as sex slaves; in fact no such thing as sex slaves. Only marriage after they grew up to marriageable age.
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Ken Temple
You said;
He never did that. Genocide is never done; even to the Canaanites and Amorites, etc. – they Canaanites in what is today Lebanon were called Phoenicians and there was no command to go outside of the borders of Israel. And there was no taking virgins as sex slaves; in fact no such thing as sex slaves. Only marriage after they grew up to marriageable age.
I say;
Jesus did have so many commands to kill children and the virgins taken by soldiers. May be you do not know how to read. You let me keep copying and pasting what you already know. Why are you doing that? It is unchristian to let us keep copying what you already know.
Ok. Take this one for as appetizer and the main dish will come later;
Luke 19:27
New International Version
But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them–bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”
New Living Translation
And as for these enemies of mine who didn’t want me to be their king–bring them in and execute them right here in front of me.’”
English Standard Version
But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.’”
Deutronomy 13
6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, 7 of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, 8 you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; 9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage
Jesus Christ’s command for killing apostates is cruel. How can Christians call this Christ of the Bible as loving? Unbelievable.
Thanks.
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You don’t hear me using the age of Aisha issue vs. Mohammad or Islam.
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Come on Jacob show us those verses from the Quran etc… like we showed you verses from Gods Holy Word
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Mr that’s wrong! I will show you the verses from the Quran regarding slaves and ALSO from the Bible!!! But later on, as i’m spending time with my lovely wife and kids!
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Ok ken, you don’t call him a Paedophile, just a rapist! Yeah, that’s really loving!
My whole point is that the very same arguments you christisns use against the Quran can be used against the bible and jesus! You all make a hoo-haa about what the right hand possesses, so therefore nothing of this nature should be found in the book you regard as the word of god. Yet, we find similar scenarios, in fact even worse. There are other verses which command the killing of women and children. So yet again i find myself repeating, if you condemn the Quran for such things which you do
Then to use equal standards you have to do the same to the bible, otherwise, jesus the lamb god in the NT, not jesus the genocide condoning god of the OT, has another term for you all, HYPOCRITES!!!
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And yet you are not using the same argument. Not even close.
So show us those verses or verse in the quran that says you are to marry your already married slave woman before you have sex with them. Show me ahadeeth, show me atasfir….
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Good attempt at deflection, mr that’s wrong! The way genocidal jesus deals with the married women is to butcher them, problem solved! He’s only interested in the young virgins, which he shares out amongst the men. If you criticise Prophet Mohammed, why not condemn this?? Because you use Double Standards! Hypocrites, as jesus the lamb god of the NT would call you!
As neil/ismaeel is a hypocrite. He leaves Islam because of what he calls immorality of Prophet Mohammed, yet has become a Messianic christian! He has no problem with the disgusting and brutal verses in the OT.
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Still waiting for those verses in the Quran, ahadeeth, Tasfir etc…
Whats funny is that you find it morally objectionable to MARRY woman, to allow woman a morning period, to FREE the Woman, and yet find it hallah to just have sex outside of marriage with your four wives and even keep the woman in slavery.
Gods word is right about people like you “They have been handed over to a depraved mind, to do what should not be done”.
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I just listened to several of Rabbi Tovia Singer’s presentations and he says Islam and Judaism are very similar.
I think it would be very interesting to get the Jewish interpretation of Numbers 31 and 1 Sam. 15, etc.
Why don’t you ask Rabbi Tovia Singer:
1. about Numbers 31
2. About I Sam. 15
3. About Genesis 22 – which son was it? Was it Isaac or Ishmael ? how did, or will Abraham’s obedience result in blessing to all the nations? (Genesis 22:18) Why Genesis 22:7 says “God will provide the lamb” but it was actually a ram that was the replacement / substitution for Abraham’s son?
4. What was the purpose of the sacrifices from Genesis 3, 22, Exodus 12; Leviticus 1-6; 16-17; I Kings, etc.
5. Why God, who is sovereign, allowed the temple to be destroyed in 70 AD by the Romans, and ending the sacrificial system?
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Mr that’s wrong. I’ll bring you several verses in the Quran encouraging the freeing of slaves. Got to go now. Bye my christian, love thy enemy (except if he/she goes agaist your theology, then trash him/her) friends! I’ll be back to highlight more of your hypocracy, InshAllah
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Jacob
Thank you very much brother. You have really helped us today and some other days by refuting these Christians. May Allah reward you and continue to guide you to the right path. The path of those who Allah has blessed and not the path of those who have gone astray.
As for Radical Moderate(That’s wrong), we provided him with several verses from the Quran that clearly said captives(slaves) must be treated the same as the owner and must be freed.
The said verse that led to Mr. Ismaeel apostasy clearly states that the captive(slave) must get he dowry(marriage) before anything. It clearly states a condition(marriage) but anyone who wants something against Islam will ignore that.
The same hypocrite Christian like Radical Moderate and or David Wood will defend the killing of apostates in the Bible, Jesus commanding his enemies to be killed, sharing and keeping virgins for soldiers as commanded by Jesus Christ after murdering their parents, killing cattles etc.
I appreciate your input Brother Jacob.
Thanks.
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Jacob you go ahead and bring those verses that have nothing to do with what I am asking or what the topic is. Again let me repeat, I want verses that say you have to Marry your already married slave woman before you can do Nikka with them. Bring me quran, bring me ahadeeth, bring me tasfirs.
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@Ken and “That’s right”
You are giving your interpretations of the Bible without giving any references from CLASSICAL sources. Nobody cares for your interpretations.
At the same time you are disregarding all explanations about the Qur’an and Islam that have a basis in CLASSICAL sources.
You attack Islam because it does not fit into the liberal secular worldview you were born into. You have nothing to do with the Bible and you have nothing to do with CLASSICAL interpretations of Christianity whether they are Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, Calvinist etc.. You have to distinguish between real Christianity (in the form of various Churches) and modern aberrations of it.
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Intercourse cannot be enforced.
If you get the death penalty in a foreign country the UK security forces will not help you. You need to inform the embassy.
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No – Why do you ask?
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Whoops – reply in wring place.
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The whole point in this issue is whether the intercourse with slaves is consensual or not. The Qur’an allows intercourse with slaves but that does not mean that it can be forced.
Whoever says that Islam allows non-consensual sex with wifes or slaves has to be killed (by a state). Goes for non-Muslims as well as for Muslims.
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Nadir then prove it. Thats all you have to do is prove ethat its not forced. Having sex with what your right hand posses who are already married I would say is forced or coerced on some level. So prove its not
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But even if you can prove that having sex with your married slave woman is consensual, you are still depraved since you can have sex with MARRIED WOMAN. Thats adultery
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That means that the previous marriage is dissolved. But this verse was referring to a specific situation. It does not change the point that intercourse has to be consensual.
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Nadir,
My dictionary (Collins 1979 edition) defines slave as follows:
“A person legally owned by another and having no freedom of action or right to property”
The online dictionary “Oxford dictionaries” gives this as the first meaning:
“…a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them”
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/slave
Consensual means giving consent. The Wikipedia article on consent gives “In common speech, consent occurs when one person voluntarily agrees to the proposal or desires of another”
Unless you can provide sources for another definition of slave and/or consent, you must concede that it follows logically that the Qur’an is either contradictory, as one who has “no freedom of action” cannot be said to have given consent, or that the Qur’an allows non-consensual intercourse.
As I may have met your condition “Whoever says that Islam allows non-consensual sex with wifes or slaves has to be killed (by a state)” please supply me with a contact address for any state that may wish to slay me so that I may inform the UK security forces.
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Andy – did you vote for Brexit?
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No – Why do you ask?
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I think right now he could certainly do with our prayers.
Hopefully the “you were never a Muslim” brigade and Islamophobes looking to scavenge off him will not crowd him.
I read he had problems with a mosque so I’m not sure if he has access to Muslims offline. He could do with a supportive and knowledgeable brother to go through matters with him. At times people just need someone to chat about concerns with
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Yahya do you think he is rightly guided?
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@That’s Right
No
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Well if he is not rightly guided then what are you going to pray for, since Allah only guides the rightly guided.
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Rape as a term is not existing in Islamic law. Rape is an offense where a woman is harmed. If there is no marital or slave-master relationship the offense of fornication is added.
So rape does not exist as a specific offense but the harm done through rape is punished.
Verse 9:5 for all Islamophobes!!!
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Nadir WRONG. slave master relationship allah says its Halah even if she is married. Surah 4:24. If another man has sex with out permission with another mans slave woman then its PROPERTY DAMAGE.
Source…
https://bloggingtheology.net/2015/08/19/1810/
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Summary and Conclusion
1- Sexual intimacy is not the purpose of having slave-women. The great classical Muslim scholar from Spain, Abu Walid al-Baji clarified this in categorical wording:
“… the very purpose of marriage is (to make) intercourse (permissible) but the purpose of possession (of slave-women) is not intercourse.” (Al-Muntaqa Sharah al-Muwatta)
2- The recommended practice after owning a slave-woman is to manumit her or at least arrange for her marriage.
3- Even when permissible and considered as an option Islamic law does not allow a man to “use” the slave-women. There are rules governing the permissibility that go with the general Islamic ideals of morality and chastity along with the protection of lineage.
4- It is therefore false to say that Islam allows raping slave-women.
http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2012/09/no-rape-slave-women-islam.html?m=1
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Eat this That’s Right😉
http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwi1xqv4msPNAhWMj5QKHXULB6QQFggaMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.answering-christianity.com%2Fkarim%2FKarim_-_articles_islamic_answers_-_part_3%2FBiblical%2520law%2520permits%2520rape%2520of%2520female%2520captives.pdf&usg=AFQjCNG6KzQltaipc2zpUsmG8ifwZVJnPw
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And yet no verses of the Quran, ahadeeth, tasfirs to back up this claim. But ok for arguments sake. the IDF should treat Palestinian captives the same way. isn’t that right?
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Brother Paul, Did you leave Islam last Week? Why?
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Hadith, Sahih Al Bukhari – VOLUME 3, # 432:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri that while he was sitting with Allah’s messenger we said, “Oh Allah’s messenger, we got female captives as our booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?” The prophet said, “Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence.”
(also refer to Bukhari Vol. 3, #718)
Hadith Sahih Al Bukhari – VOLUME 9, # 506:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri that during the battle with Bani Al-Mustaliq they (Muslims) captured some females and intended to have sexual relations with them without impregnating them. So they asked the prophet about coitus interruptus. The prophet said, “It is better that you should not do it, for Allah has written whom He is going to create till the Day of Resurrection”.
Qaza’a said, “I heard Abu Said saying that the prophet said, “No soul is ordained to be created but Allah will create it.””
(also ref. Bukhari 5:459).
Hadith Sahih Al Bukhari – VOLUME 5, #637:
Narrated Buraida: The prophet sent Ali to Khalid to bring the Khumus (part of the war booty) and I hated Ali, and Ali had taken a bath (after a sexual act with a slave girl from the Khumus). I said to Khalid, “Don’t you see this (i.e. Ali)? When we reached the prophet I mentioned that to him. He said, “O Buraida! Do you hate Ali?” I said, “Yes.” He said, “Do you hate him for he deserves more than that from the Khumus.”
Hadith Sahih Muslim, VOLUME 2, # 3371
Abu Sirma said to Abu Said al Khudri: “O Abu Said, did you hear Allah’s messenger mentioning about al-azl (coitus interruptus)?” He said, “Yes”, and added: “We went out with Allah’s messenger on the expedition to the Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing azl” (withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid conception). But we said: “We are doing an act whereas Allah’s messenger is amongst us; why not ask him?” So we asked Allah’s messenger and he said: “It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born”.
Hadith Sahih Muslim, VOLUME 2, # 3432
Abu Said al-Khudri reported that at the Battle of Hunain Allah’s messenger sent an army to Autas and encountered the enemy and fought with them.
Having overcome them and taken them captives, the Companions of Allah’s messenger seemed to refrain from having intercourse with captive women because of their husbands being polytheists. Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that: “And women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (Quran – 4:24), (i.e. they were lawful for them when their Idda (menstrual) period came to an end).
The last one shows the Asbab al Nozul اسباب النزول – The reasons for the revelation. (historical context of the verse Surah 4:24 in the Qur’an.
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yep as discussed in other thread
http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwi1xqv4msPNAhWMj5QKHXULB6QQFggaMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.answering-christianity.com%2Fkarim%2FKarim_-_articles_islamic_answers_-_part_3%2FBiblical%2520law%2520permits%2520rape%2520of%2520female%2520captives.pdf&usg=AFQjCNG6KzQltaipc2zpUsmG8ifwZVJnPw
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HADITH OF THE SUNAN OF ABU DAWUD, VOLUME 2, # 2150:
Abu Said al-Khudri said: “The apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Quranic verse, “And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess”. That is to say, they are lawful for them when they complete their waiting period.” [The Quran verse is 4:24].
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yeppa as discussed in other thread
http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwi1xqv4msPNAhWMj5QKHXULB6QQFggaMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.answering-christianity.com%2Fkarim%2FKarim_-_articles_islamic_answers_-_part_3%2FBiblical%2520law%2520permits%2520rape%2520of%2520female%2520captives.pdf&usg=AFQjCNG6KzQltaipc2zpUsmG8ifwZVJnPw
😉
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For all christians who copy from David Wood’s site.
(Deut 21:11-14) has nothing to do with marriage .
Satanic Christians have been always playing with the translations.
If the (Deut 21:11-14) had anything to do with marriage, why would God command that Israeli man to (release )that captive woman and not to (divorce) her?
We read in (Deut 21:14) “But if you marry her and she does not please you, you must let her go free. You may not sell her or treat her as a slave, for you have humiliated her”
Why would God command that man not to SELL her ? Wasn’t that the normal situation when a husband divorces his wife? Why was there a need to instruct that man?
Then, what kind of (Humiliation) that man did for that woman?
If we read the Hebrew text, we will find the answer.
The term which is used in Hebrew is (עִנִּיתָֽהּ׃)!!
Guess what?
The same term (עִנִּיתָֽהּ׃) has been used in Genesis 34:2 in the story of Dinah which has been translated to (Rape).
The term in Hebrew is pronounced as (anah). in Arabic is (anna)
I’m an Arabic man, and I know how that term is used. It’s used to describe any act which has been done by FORCE.
Note (Deut21:11-14) has nothing to do with Marriage. Baal could be used as (husband). However, it means the (owner) in Arabic and Hebrew.
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On the same day he uploaded his “Why I left Islam” video he uploaded this
No mention of him having left Islam. He still gives the impression he is speaking as a Muslim, with intention to give quote “brotherly advice”.
Seems he has turned into another deceiving missionary.
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I agree very dishonest. Pretending to offer advice as a Muslim when he has left the faith.
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Just published…
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