Catholicism knows the Christ of faith.
Protestantism knows the Christ of Paul.
Islam knows the Christ of history.
Categories: Abdal-Hakim Murad, Christianity, History, Islam
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Blogging Theology 
“Islam knows the Christ of history.”
LOL!! Good one.
Where in the quran does it say that jesus lived six centuries previously? In the reign of Tiberius? Is Tiberius mentioned in the quran? What about Pontius Pilate? The disciples? By name? Any places in Palestine where jesus visited? Any in-depth, account of his ministry? What he said when he visited some of these places not mentioned – or known – by the guys who forged the quran? Why they wanted to crucify jesus? The events leading up to the “faux-allah-tricked-everyone” crucifixion?
No? Hmmm……
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the Jesus of history as uncovered by scholars is very similar to the Jesus of the Quran.
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LOL, as usually Fido talks out of his rear end!
The Jesus of history was not a man-god who resurrected from the dead, you mutt! Thus, the Quran knows the Christ of history. Get it now, my mangy friend?
In contrast, your Bible completely missed the nail by applying all sorts of myths to Jesus, not to mention outright lies like the dead rising from the grave after his crucifixion. What is this? Night of the Living Dead? Were they after brains? LOL!! Incidentally, my favorite TV show is The Walking Dead. 😉
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Paul
So the short answer is no. the quran offers no historical details of jesus’ life and ministry.
Fail
The quran is a man-made concoction of second-hand stories lifted from other religions. The earliest qurans in existence are incomplete, and written in varying, often clumsy, script by anonymous authors who probably introduced their own material to cater to political needs of the day. And they have thousands of manuscript differences, between the handful that exist.
So no rational person takes it seriously as a historical document to shed light on the historical jesus other than die-hard brainwashed little mini-munchkin-men like yourself.
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What Paul is saying is that he knows one scholar, one quote, that he posts about ad nauseum. And I’m pretty certain that scholar isn’t even respected in historical Jesus studies. But Paul won’t tell you that. He will just make grandiose claims
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Watch this…..
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This is how you learn about Islam? No wonder you’re such a dumbass.
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No, it’s parody, but you should probably read the book – just for the unique perspective.
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Islam knows the Christ of history? Is that the Christ who wasn’t crucified, predicted Muhammad by name and had disciples who called themselves muslims? Is that the Christ of history of which you speak? Sorry, not convinced.
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Allan,
The Christ of history was a monotheist who worshiped God, and never claimed to be God himself. This is the Christ that the Quran describes.
And yes, he would have predicted Muhammad (pbuh) by name. And his disciples were Muslims, in that they submitted to God. That’s what a Muslim is, by definition.
Not everything about him is that well-known due to the myth-making that occurred after he left this world, but what we do know is that he never heard of this thing your call the “trinity”, nor did his disciples. That is the Christ of history, which agrees with the Christ of Islam.
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Fido barked:
“The quran is a man-made concoction of second-hand stories lifted from other religions. The earliest qurans in existence are incomplete, and written in varying, often clumsy, script by anonymous authors who probably introduced their own material to cater to political needs of the day. And they have thousands of manuscript differences, between the handful that exist.
So no rational person takes it seriously as a historical document to shed light on the historical jesus other than die-hard brainwashed little mini-munchkin-men like yourself.”
LOL!!! Deflecting again, I see.
The only “man-made concoction” is your silly little Bible, which every rational person has concluded is nothing more than a bunch of myths, such as the Night of the Living Dead after the crucifixion of your god.
Real scholars recognize the Bible’s mythological status. The only people who don’t are nut-jobs like yourself and your canine buddy Lassie!
Real scholars recognize the Quran’s impeccable preservation and its knowledge of historical truths. In contrast, your Bible contains thousands of errors, contradictions and absurdities, not to mention the thousands of differences in its manuscripts, including additions, deletions, and outright forgeries. No book in history has been edited over and over again like your Bible. LOL!!!
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Fail
So you admit that your faux holy book offers absolutely no details about the life and ministry of jesus.
“Not everything about him is that well-known due to the myth-making that occurred after he left this world, but what we do know is that he never heard of this thing your call the “trinity”, nor did his disciples.”
LOL!!! The quran has nothing to say bout jesus’ disciples – they had to learn about hem not from your demon-god, but from christians and christian writings.
That aside, where in the NT does jesus talk about god being a two-right-handed, one-leg hopping, 99 personality, god who is incapable of entering his own creation, whose angels are indistinguishable from demons, and who requires clerics to explain his word?
In fact, where in the quran does jesus describe a one-legged mutant god with 99 personalities whose prophet will be named mohammed? Your own man-made holy book does not support your theology. The guy you call “isa” (whoever that might be) does not describe anything like the god that muslims adore, and even he would not have bowed down to the kaaba and circled it seven times.
So the problem remains……the quran is a man-made concoction of second-hand stories lifted from other religions. The earliest qurans in existence are incomplete, and written in varying, often clumsy, script by anonymous authors who probably introduced their own material to cater to political needs of the day. And they have thousands of manuscript differences, between the handful that exist.
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The Christ of history was certainly crucified under Pontus Pilate, something that the Quran denies. So how can you say Islam knows the Christ of history?
The Christ of history also did not predict Muhammad by name. How can you predict that someone of a specific name will be born and become a prophet 6 centuries after yourself? Jesus did not predict Muhammad will come after him. If we go by what historians say about the historical Jesus, he probably thought no one would be coming after him because the end was supposed to come soon. If we go by a biblical understanding then he was talking about the Holy Spirit. Since Jesus’ death his followers were very satisfied about not expecting anyone else to lead them after him. There are no historical records or texts about Christians expecting another prophet after Jesus. This was put into Muhammad’s head by his wife’s uncle.
At least the prophecies that Christians use about Jesus are quoted or referred to by the text such as the timing (Daniel 9), the location (Bethlehem in Micah 5), the method of birth (by a virgin in Isaiah 7), the messiahs background (descendant of David), his title (Immanuel in Isaiah 9) etc.
The Quran says Muhammad is mentioned in the Torah and the gospels and also says that Jesus says that someone called Ahmad will come after him. All of this is very obscure and vague. No quotes from those scriptures are used to back up the statements. And by the way when the Quran says Muhammad is mentioned in the Torah and gospel it is in the present tense, so it’s not talking about some lost scripture that conveniently contained prophecies about Muhammad that went missing but rather the scriptures that Jews and Christians still had in his day. We can retrospectively look back at this to bibles that existed way before the 6th and 7th century. By the 3rd and 4th century there were already complete Old and New Testament bibles, none of which contains prophecies about Muhammad. And Paraclete is not a mistranslation since it is found in all manuscripts which contain the word.
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Thanks. I have never heard these arguments before!
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Oops, both the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Gospels speak of a “prophet” to come. This prophet was not the Messiah. The Essenes believed that there would be two Messiahs, a king Messiah and a priestly Messiah, as well as another prophet. In the Gospel of John, the people asked John the Baptist if he was that prophet, and he said no. So, who was this prophet? It certainly wasn’t Jesus.
The so-called “prophecies” you refer to have been debunked as being taken out of context or not being prophecies at all (e.g. Hosea 11:1). Read my blog article on this subject here:
http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-gospel-of-matthew-and-tanakhic.html
Thank you for bringing up this subject though, because it is another reason to doubt the Christ of the Bible. The Christ of the Bible was NEVER prophesied in the Old Testament. No name. Not even a hint of his coming.
Despite being one of the most famous men in history, we know next to nothing about his life except the 2 or 3 years of his adult life which are recounted in the Gospels. But what we do know for a fact is that he never claimed to be “God”, and never even heard of the “trinity”. The Christ of History is thus very much in line with the Christ of Islam.
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Fair, this often repeated argument has been debunked before. “The prophet” they were asking about is the one from Deuteronomy 18, this would disqualify Muhammad since he wasn’t from amongst the brethren of the Israelites. No, brethren doesn’t include the Ishmaelites, it’s specifically for the Israelites. Just look at the history of the prophets in Israel. Regardless of whether Muhammad was a prophet or not, he wasn’t an Israelite prophet so this doesn’t regard him. (And please don’t reference the website that lists ways in which Muhammad is more similar to Moses than Jesus was because it is flawed in many ways, including the fact that Moses was 80 not 40 when God called him on his mission).
And I’m pretty sure the Essenes weren’t expecting another prophet to come 6 centuries after they lived. And many of the Essene beliefs found in the Dead Sea scrolls point more to a prophet and messiah who resembles the Jesus of the NT rather than your Islamic Jesus. Just read the scrolls for yourself and you’ll see. They are filled with passages of a divine human being.
And Jesus was “the prophet”, as mentioned in John 1:45, John 5:45-47 and Acts 10:43. The reason 3 individuals are mentioned is because the Jews thought the messiah would be a distinct person from the prophet, yet it is clear that Jesus is both a messiah and a prophet. Also bear in mind that if the Jews were expecting “the prophet” to be a non-Jew or Gentile then they wouldn’t bother asking Elijah or Jesus any questions.
If the Christ of the bible was never prophesied in the OT then you yourself as a Muslim are in a dilemma since the Quran not only calls Jesus the messiah but also acknowledges his virgin birth. What is the historical or scriptural basis of Jesus being the messiah and born of a virgin if not from biblical prophecy? By the way I find it rather strange that you can say the Christ of the bible was never prophesied in the OT yet the Quran says Muhammad is prophesied in the Torah and Gospel. How is it that Muhammad can be prophesied but not Jesus?
And finally, the only reason you say the Christ of history is in line with the Islamic one is simply because of monotheistic relation. Yet any Christian who is a Unitarian has a stronger case than any Muslim. Since they not only believe in one God as you say Jesus did, but also that Jesus was crucified which is denied by Christians. So my counter is that the Christ of history is more in line with Unitarian Christianity than with Islam.
You can’t just pick and choose things to suit your own beliefs, this will always be a major problem and stumbling block for Islam until you can acknowledge the previous scriptures as your own book tells you to.
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*Faiz, sorry spelt your name wrong
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LOL Fido! Still deflecting?
Where is the historical evidence of the Christ of the Bible? Since when was the Christ of History visited by 3 guys who followed a star, escape to Egypt to escape a tyrant, come back, grow up, claim he was “God”, faced a trial by a Sanhedrin that had alternating high priests, face Pilate who then released Barabbas (an enemy of the Roman state) because of some Passover “custom”, get crucified after which the land went all “Night of the Living Dead”, rise from the dead 3 days and 3 nights later (well, it was actually 3 days and 2 nights in your contradictory Gospels 😉 ), appear to his disciples, ascend to heaven and then sit at the right hand of God? When did this happen in history? Stop deflecting and answer the question, you mangy mutt!
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The evidence found in the new testament is historical.
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Empty statements of faith mean nothing. Historians have thoroughly analyzed the New Testament and found it lacking in historical evidence.
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There’s no reason to believe otherwise. The Person/God it describes was by all means exactly as they stated. And his message revolutionized the entire world, yet he had nothing of this world’s assets and he died alone, butchered, beaten, and nailed to a cross.
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Yes, there is. The New Testament is contradictory, full of absurdities and false prophecies. There is every reason to doubt it.
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I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the father except by me.
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I agree, except Jesus is not YHWH .
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He is I AM THAT I AM
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Which is just a phrase, not a name. What’s your point?
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Oops,
You’re interjecting your own presumptions into the issue, and picking and choosing yourself.
Regardless of the interpretation of Deuteronomy 18, the fact remains that there is historical evidence that the Jews were expecting another Prophet, who was not the Messiah. I have read the Dead Sea Scrolls. Why do you think I brought them up? While it is true that they were expecting a Jewish prophet, it is equally likely that this was their expectation, but that it was not necessarily the right expectation. You argued yourself that the Jews were mistaken in thinking that the Messiah and the Prophet were two different people, so why is not equally probable that they were mistaken in believing that the Prophet had to be an Israelite?
Regarding the lack of prophecies about Jesus in the Tanakh, that is a problem for you, not for me. I don’t believe in the Bible, and you can try to make it appear that the Quran endorses the Bible, but it just is not the case. Muslims have no reason to believe in the Bible. Thus, the lack of prophecies is a problem for Christians, not for Muslims. I am sure Jesus was prophesied by the previous prophets, but the fact remains that none of these prophecies seem to have survived. The Tanakh has nothing in it that can be conclusively linked with Jesus, not in Deuteronomy, not in Isaiah, and not in Daniel.
I would argue that the Unitarian Christianity has a stronger case than trinitarian Christianity, but not Islam. You still acknowledge the reliability of the Bible, whereas Muslims do not. Historical studies have shown that the Bible is very unreliable, and has undergone a centuries-long process of redaction and editing.
The Christ of History, from what we can gather from the available data, is certainly closer to the Christ of Unitarianism, but ultimately, I think he is much closer to the Christ of Islam.
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Faiz,
I believe there is a ton of myth making in the Gospels. Saints rising from the dead and appearing to many, while no other Gospel writer mentions such an extraordinary event does leave me scratching my head. Even Mike Licona was put on the chopping block because he called into question the historicity of said event.
In the end, I pray for all of us, Muslim, Christian, Jew. I pray God will extend his mercy and grace to us all. I pray all my brothers and sisters who are seekers of truth be blessed by the hand of God.
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It’s great that you have all these things to say against the Bible yet the Quran can not stand up to the same scrunity as the Bible. Archaeologists and historians can’t even step foot in Mecca and Medina, I’m sure there’s a lot of stuff out there that will only serve to disqualify the Quran as the verbatim word of God, but the Muslim authorities fear these kind of investigations. The truth has nothing to fear or hide. The Bible doesn’t have that same issue since people acknowledge that it was written by human hands and different people over time (only pure fundamental Jews and Christians hold to the belief that it is entirely inerrant and infallible). Anyway, the majority of the Quranic text is based on the assumption that the listener or reader is already familiar with the Bible. There are biblical stories all over the Quran, many of them which include stories that mix different biblical characters into one such as Saul and Gideon or other areas where the stories come from the Talmud and biblical apocryphal texts.
On top of that the Quran includes the story of Alexander the Great as a historical fact, that he travelled to the ends of the earth to the east and to the west, and the the people of Gog and Magog are still being locked up behind some mysterious walls today until the end time. There are plenty more un-historical stories found in the Quran that I can mention.
Now I mention all of this because if I cannot trust that the Quran gives an accurate description of history, how can I then believe that the Quran represents the true historical Jesus?
But at the end of the day I’d like to agree with that Jason Williams said, that God will extend His mercy to us all regardless of faith. It is actually the Quran that says that Jews, Christians and Muslims who believe in God, the last day and do good deeds, there shall be no fear for them and they shall have their reward (Surah 2:62 and others). But I’m pretty sure some Muslim on here will tell me that verse and others like it no longer count.
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I have never come across Alexander the Great being mentioned by name in the Quran.
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Alexander the Great was often depicted by people of other cultures as being horned or having 2 horns. “Dhul-Qarnayn” means “he of 2 horns” and when you compare the Quranic descriptions of Dhul-Qarnayn to that of other cultures it becomes quite obvious that the Quran is talking about Alexander the Great. The Alexander Romance is a legend about Alexander the Great that is found in so many different cultures. To ignore this is simply willful ignorance.
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Oops said:
“*Faiz, sorry spelt your name wrong”
No worries. 🙂
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“You are the king then!” said Pilate. Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into this world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.” “What is truth?” Pilate asked. And having said this, he went out again to the Jews and told them, “I find no basis for a charge against him…”
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Hi Jason. I certainly appreciate your comment. I have a lot of respect for Christians, whether they are Unitatian or Trinitarian, who don’t go around demonizing those who don’t follow their religion, such as Fido and his buddy Lassie.
I also appreciate your honesty about the historical problems in the Gospels. And I definitely join you in your hope in God’s mercy.
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Oops
Thanks for your kind words. We here do not have problems with Christians or Jews as a whole because we have friends, families, spouses, close associates etc. in all religions. We are against something that is illogical like how can God become man? which is impossible. Father is God, Son is God and Holy Spirit is God. We can count 3 and some Christians always join we Muslims and agree with us to count 3 Gods. We are against that absurdity on man and children just like gay lessons forced on children at schools.
We are also against those people like Nabeel, Sam etc. who do not have qualification in Islam and do not speak fluent Quranic or classic Arabic to tell lies about our religion.
Now I will like to make some correction from what you said.
The Quran never mention the name of Alexander the Great. So if you get it from someone, then that is the figment of his imagination.
You said the Quranic stories come from the Talmud and biblical apocryphal texts. And so what my dear Oops? They are stories which people know and that is why the Quran speaks and expecting some of the readers to know the stories.
The Quran came to correct some of the stories. The Quran says Jesus moulded some birds and they fly BY THE PERMISSION OF ALLAH. Notice the correction in capitals which is not in the Bible or any apocrypha.
The Quran says the pharaoh of Moses time will be preserved and recording his conversation with God when he was going to drown. All these were not in the Bible or any apocrypha but we learn them in the Quran alone and not in the Bible or any apocrypha.
The Quran is on its own world and has its unique stories, correction, additions and deletions that is unique to the Quran and not any apocrypha.
Thanks.
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Intellect, the scholars of your own tafsirs acknowledged that Dhul-Qarnayn is Alexander the Great, including ibn Kathir and al-Jalalayn.
Also as I mentioned above, compare Surah 18 with the other Alexander Romance stories, particularly those from Greek and Christian legends. These even mention Gog and Magog and how Alexander the Great built a wall around them, exactly what the Quran says about Dhul-Qarnayn. Not only are these legends there is also another difference. Dhul-Qarnayn in the Quran is a monotheist but the real Dhul-Qarnayn was a Hellenistic pagan and idol worshipper.
I don’t believe you can honestly tell me that the Quran corrects the Bible on historical accounts but this is only something we can agree to disagree until more discoveries are made.
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Oops
Alexander the Great is not in the Quran. Dhul-Qarnayn does not sound like Alexander the Great.
There is a discovery about the Moses’s time pharaoh whom the Quran said clearly his body will be preserved for future generations to see as witness. It is in the Quran that Allah said “We will keep your body to serve as witness to future generations
————-
We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts foThaned them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: “I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam).” (It was said to him): “Ah now!- But a little while before, wast thou in rebellion!- and thou didst mischief (and violence)! “This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!” [Qur’ân 10:90-92]
————–
Are you going to challenge the discovery of Pharoah’s body? the was flown all over the world for people to see? It is not in the Bible that his body will be preserved but it is clearly in the Quran. The Quran said people like you will be heedless to the sign of God.
Do you have objection to this Quranic story and discovery?
Again, the Quran used King and Pharoah correctly to correspond to the Egyptian dynasty but the Bible was wrong and used Pharoah when King was used to refer to Pharoah. The Quran corrects the Bible as well. The list goes on.
Thanks.
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Intellect, mummification was a normal custom in ancient Egyptian culture there’s nothing prophetic about that. Many mummy’s have been discovered throughout history.
The problem with your argument is that historians have no idea which pharoah existed at the time of Moses. Most don’t even believe that Moses existed or that there was an exodus of Israelites out of Egypt. On top of that Muslims are unsure about whether the mummy used in this so called argument is the mummy of Ramses ii or his son Merneptah, you can’t have it both ways. Since you know so well, tell me which pharaoh the Quran was talking about that was supposed to have his body preserved? Bare in mind as I said that many mummy’s have been discovered, did God promise to preserve their body’s for so may years too or was it simply just an Egyptian custom?
Another problem, the Quran says that Pharoah and his whole army were drowned by the sea. How is it then that the mummies discovered have all been in tombs? Who dug up the pharaoh’s drowned body and then put it in a tomb? By the way the mummies have been investigated to find out their method of death and neither was by drowning.
There are so many more flaws with this argument but to keep things short I’ll leave it at that. And with this whole Quran corrects the difference between King and pharaoh, another useless argument. The King and pharaoh issue is only present in English translations of the Bible since they freely translated both terms with the assumption that most people will be familiar with the fact that the leaders in Egypt were pharaohs. In Hebrew however, the word “King” is used in its appropriate place before the time of Moses as “melech” which means King. By Moses’ time, pharaohs already existed.
Please stop repeating debunked “miracles” proclaimed by people such as Maurice Baucille and Zakir Naik, I think it does more harm than good for the cause of Islam. Many people have converted to Islam because of these so called miracles but have then also left after these so called miracles turned out not to be miracles at all.
And back to my previous point. Dhul-Qarnayn was Alexander the Great, the similarities cannot be ignored. So once again, if I can’t trust the Quran on historical points, how can I believe that it accurately portrays the historical Jesus?
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“Many people have converted to Islam because of these so called miracles but have then also left after these so called miracles turned out not to be miracles at all.”
Like who?
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Oops
You said;
In Hebrew however, the word “King” is used in its appropriate place before the time of Moses as “melech” which means King. By Moses’ time, pharaohs already existed.
I say;
Check your Bible very well. The researchers and those Egyptologists who identified this Biblical error and Quranic correctness are not fools. They did their research very well. In the Hebrew Bible, it is Pharoah that was used for all Egyptian dynasties. I once referred another Christian like you to the Hebrew Bible and it is Pharoah instead of King.
You said;
By the way the mummies have been investigated to find out their method of death and neither was by drowning.
I say;
Where is your evidence? Evidence shows the mummy has more salt in the body. Sea water has a lot of salf
Proof:
This body is in shape than all the mummies and that is why the body is said to be preserved. The mummies at the time period that were found are decayed and in bad shape and cannot be flown all over the world for people to see. This mummy is in shape and was flown all over the world for people to see and that is what the Quran clearly said and the Bible did not say this piece and this piece cannot be found in the Bible.
The Quran corrected the Bible here and did not copy from the Bible. Yes, there is mummification, but all that were found are not in good shape like this one. You can prove otherwise.
When a person drowns, later he will float and may be washed ashore and they are so many ways to get the drowned Pharoahs body for mummification.
THE QURAN RECORDED THE CONVERSATION THAT TOOK PLACE BETWEEN GOD AND PHAROAH WHE HE WAS AT THE PROCESS OF DROWNING. It is there in the Quran but not in the Bible. Who knows that conversation? No one except Allah and He revealed it in the Quran.
The discovery of this body proves it right and some Christians believed it is the body of the exodus Pharoah but the die hard ones are trying hard to disproves it.
It was not Muslims who found the body and did the discoveries but non Muslims alike. Why disprove it? Do not quit on this brainstorming abruptly because we are all learning. Bring your facts to disprove it.
THE RESEARCHERS AND THE BODY EXAMINERS CLAIM THE BODY HAS HIGH AMOUNT OF SALT THAN OTHER MUMMIES. It could be the salt in the sea water.
Source: http://www.falaah.co.uk/basic-knowledge/quran-and-tafsir/184-the-dead-body-of-pharaoh
Thanks.
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Intellect you are using a biased source which doesn’t count at all.
The site you referenced is a Muslim one which has clearly presented biased information to put itself in line with what the Quran says.
No wonder why you aren’t aware of the real issues with your argument. You will continue to remain ignorant of the facts until you develop the courage to look at sources outside of Islamic ones. It is pointless for me to continue if you are in your current position.
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Oops
You said;
Intellect you are using a biased source which doesn’t count at all.
The site you referenced is a Muslim one which has clearly presented biased information to put itself in line with what the Quran says.
No wonder why you aren’t aware of the real issues with your argument. You will continue to remain ignorant of the facts until you develop the courage to look at sources outside of Islamic ones. It is pointless for me to continue if you are in your current position
I say;
You are right but the body’s examination was not done by Muslims. Abe? He mentioned the names and presidents who requested for the body’s examination. You have to prove this did not happen. You have to prove the body of Pharoah was not found as the Quran predicted it will be preserved for future generation and the Bible did not do that. The Quran did not copy from the Bible or any apocrypha but corrected the stories contained in them.
I challenge you to bring a source that says the Bible referring to the King of Egypt as Pharoah is not in the Hebrew Bible. Bring Hebrew Bible here and show us where King was used instead of Pharoah before Moses.
We are all learning and I once brought the Hebrew Bible to show where Pharoah was used instead of King but the Quran use the King and Pharoah correctly, so the Quran did not copy from Bible or apocrypha but to correct them.
The Quran corrected the infancy Gospel of Thomas by saying Jesus moulded clay birds to fly BY THE PERMISSION OF ALLAH. The capitals is not in the Bible or any apocrypha.
You have to prove that sea water does not contain salt. You have to disprove the examiners who said the body had a lot of salt and is in good shape than any mummy that was found at its time. Is it not the miracle from the story of the Quran? Who can boldly predict this? The Bible never made this prediction but the Quran did so the Quran did not copy from the Quran.
Thanks.
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I don’t have to prove or do anything in regards to the mummy. I asked you, which pharaoh’s body did the Quran promise to preserve? Do you know his name? How do you know which one the Quran was talking about? Many mummy’s have been discovered from Egypt, which one is the one from the Quran? Also, the mummies body’s have been investigated already and they all seemed to have died of old age or disease rather than from drowning.
Also I still don’t get your point about this King/pharaoh issue. It’s not even that big of a deal. Even if pharaoh was used earlier than Moses in the Bible that’s not even a contradiction. The term pharaoh would have been a modern reference point for the reader to understand that the bible was talking about the leaders of Egypt as they would have been known by that title by the time Genesis was first written. The Quran has a similar if not more issues about misusing names, such as the word Aziz for pharaoh’s assistant in the Quran.
By the way look at this:
ham-me-leḵ הַמֶּ֖לֶךְ of the king
This is a translation of Genesis 39:20 in the story of Joseph, talking about the King of Egypt. The word used is king rather than pharaoh, so like I mentioned in a previous reply, this so called correction only applies to English translations of the bible that translated the Hebrew word for King “melek” as pharaoh instead. In the original Hebrew the word is melek, which is where the Arabic term “malik” is derived from. So in reality there is no problem. In the Hebrew also, pharaoh and melek were used interchangeably since they applied to the same person.
I went out of my way to verify this. This is why it’s important to do proper research rather than repeat things you’ve read on the internet, especially on biased Muslim sites.
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Ooh touché, Intellect I think Oops caught you out with this one. Now I would also like to make a contribution.
It makes me sad that in 2016, Muslims such as yourself are still relying on already dismissed miracles mentioned in the infamous 1976 Maurice Baucille book “Bible, the Quran and science”. I don’t even know where to begin with that book except to summarise it as pretty awful. I’m not even Christian (agnostic) but that book was a painful and sometimes hilarious read. I mention the date because within these past 40 years, the book has been dismissed and ridiculed by sophisticated scientists and theologians alike, some of which includes Muslims themselves.
Now I checked the link you referenced and had a feeling Maurice would show up. Here’s why this “miracle” doesn’t work:
The tomb of Rameses II and many other tombs were all discovered within the same vicinity in Egypt known as the valley of the kings. More than a dozen mummies have been found in that location, many of them within the same tomb.
The Quran doesn’t mention the pharaoh of Moses by name so by that logic, he could be any one of the plenty of mummies discovered in the location (this by itself should be more than enough to dismiss the miracle claim).
I have seen disputes by Muslims about whether the preservation in the Quran was talking about Rameses II or his son Merneptah. So even Muslims themselves are not entirely sure. You can’t call this a miracle if you don’t even know who the actual pharaoh is.
There is no real historical basis for assuming that Rameses II was the pharaoh of Exodus or the Quran. In fact, most of the historical dates are actually due to calculating certain Biblical time periods such as the 1st Temple period and working backwards from there to see which pharaoh would have lived in the time of Moses. Rameses II is the most popular choice, popular not accurate. There are plenty other candidates that have been suggested. Regardless though, it’s funny how Muslim’s still rely on Biblical dates to make a case for their scripture despite the fact that according to Muslims the Bible is neither true, nor historical, nor accurate.
It seems neither scripture has the most accurate depiction of the historical Jesus, although from my standpoint I’d say the Gospels, Acts and letters of Paul when interpreted together give a much more sufficient and rounded case for the historical Jesus. From what I’ve seen the Quran rarely talks about anything historical on the account of Jesus except for acknowledging him as a real person and believer in one God. In the Quran there are no dates, no substantial historical stories, no quotes from the historical Jesus except for perhaps “my God and your God” and a vague denial of the crucifixion. In the Bible, if you remove all the supposed miracles and prophecies associated with Jesus, you find a person who is much more closely related to the historical Jesus. Just like with the Quran he is acknowledged as a real person, believes in one God (most important commandment) but then there is so much more that gives us a clearer indication of the historical Jesus. He was crucified under Pontus Pilate, has a brother called James (both attested in the works of Josephus, the closest contemporary of Jesus to mention his name if you exclude the writings of Paul which are even earlier) and has sayings and parables which the historical Jesus most likely did actually say. The only historical point about Jesus that I see Islam winning over Christianity is that Jesus most likely did not see himself as God, he believed he was the servant of the Almighty rather than equal. However this isn’t necessarily a Quran vs Bible issue, since it is from the Bible itself that we get the picture of Jesus being a human being, even in the gospel of John. The dispute about Jesus being God or not is a doctrinal/theological one, not scriptural especially since there are Unitarian Christians who can read the gospel of John and still come away believing God is above Jesus. The closest we get to Jesus being divine or having any relation to God in the gospels is his title as ‘son of God’ which the author of John himself admits was his agenda to make people believe in.
If anything, I think when it comes to Jesus both Christians and Muslims should look more at points to agree on rather than points to dispute about because your faith can either stand together or fall apart.
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Is non-intellect really appealing to the stupid “the Quran predicted the preservation of the Pharoah’s body” nonsense? Really? Man, I am embarrassed for non-intellect.
Here is the demolition of this lie:
http://answeringislam.net/authors/shamoun/body_pharaoh.html
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Greetings Jason:
You said:
“I believe there is a ton of myth making in the Gospels. Saints rising from the dead and appearing to many, while no other Gospel writer mentions such an extraordinary event does leave me scratching my head. Even Mike Licona was put on the chopping block because he called into question the historicity of said event.”
I think the best source is Mark,in that he has information the most information that is embarrassing.Some skeptics think it is plot device,a trick,but I don’t think so,one example is:
Jesus called Peter “Satan”,in Mark 8:33 and Matthew 16:23,where Peter says to Jesus:“You are the Messiah”. Peter was the most important of the 12 apostles,according to Bart Ehrman,one of a inner circle of 3,the most trusted by Jesus(James,brother of John,John,and Peter).
But Luke,chapter 9,omits Peter being called Satan,he was obviously embarrassed.
As I said before,there is good reason that Mark got his information from Peter himself.
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Even John has embarrassing information,not to be compared to Mark,but here they are:
John 4:43-44
“After the two days He went forth from there into Galilee. For Jesus Himself testified that a prophet has no honor in his own country.”
John 7:2-5
“Now the feast of the Jews, the Feast of Booths, was near. Therefore His brothers said to Him, “Leave here and go into Judea, so that Your disciples also may see Your works which You are doing. For no one does anything in secret when he himself seeks to be known publicly. If You do these things, show Yourself to the world.”
For not even His brothers believed in Him.”
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Mark has a healing of Jesus,that is omitted in Luke and Matthew,where Jesus has difficulty in healing a blind man:
Mark 8:22-26
“They came to Bethsaida. Some people brought a blind man to him and begged him to touch him.
He took the blind man by the hand and led him out of the village; and when he had put saliva on his eyes and laid his hands on him, he asked him, “Can you see anything?”
And the man looked up and said, “I can see people, but they look like trees, walking.”
Then Jesus laid his hands on his eyes again; and he looked intently and his sight was restored, and he saw everything clearly. Then he sent him away to his home, saying, “Do not even go into the village.””
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If one goes to youtube and checks out Dr Lydia McGrew’s “Undesigned Coincidences in the Gospels and Acts”,she shows stuff that gives credence to the general reliability,in general,in the Gospels.
A.Mark has king Herod say he thought Jesus was the resurrection of John the Baptist.
Mark 6:14-16
“King Herod heard about this, because Jesus’ name had become well-known. He was saying, “John the Baptist has been raised from the dead! That’s why he is able to do these miracles.”
Others were saying, “He is Elijah.”
Still others were saying, “He is a prophet like one of the other prophets.”
But when Herod heard about it, he said, “John, whom I beheaded, has been raised,””
B.Luke does NOT mention this.
C.But Matthew,who copied from Mark,mentions it.
Matthew 14:1-2
” At that time Herod the tetrarch, hearing about the fame of Jesus,
told his servants,
“This is John the Baptist! He has been raised from the dead, and that’s why these miracles are being done by him.””
Matthew,not Mark,has the phrase that Herod “told his servants”,that Jesus was the resurrection of John the Baptist.
One question is:how did Matthew know that Herod specifically told his servants that he thought Jesus was John-Baptist resurrected?
D.Now Luke,talking about a totally different thing says:
Luke 8:1-3
“After this, Jesus traveled from one city and village to another, preaching and spreading the good news about God’s kingdom. The Twelve were with him,
as well as some women who had been healed of evil spirits and illnesses: Mary, also called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out;
Joanna, the wife
of Herod’s household manager Chuza;
Susanna; and many others. These women continued to support them out of their personal resources.”
The wife of an important servant of Herod was a disciple of Jesus,so most probably one of the servants to who Herod said that Jesus was John-Baptist resurrected.
Chuza told Joanna,
who told the Twelve,and Matthew was of the 12 apostles.
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Islam knows Isa not Jesus Christ.
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its the same person dude. Do you agree that Jesus worshiped God?
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Paul Williams
“its the same person dude.”
Possibly, possibly not. The quran provides absolutely minimal details about “isa’s” life and historical context such that it is only through redaction and non-quranic sources that he is associated with jesus of Nazareth. Case in point, where in the quran does it say that “isa” is from nazarath? Or that he was born in bethlehem?
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D
God is the same God who created all of us, but I know Him(God) to be One, Only and Alone God of Abraham as the Bible said but you know Him(God) to be 3 persons 1 God who died even though the Bible said God does not die. He is the same God who created everything but we know Him(God) differently.
The same applies to His(God) prophets like Isa(Jesus). He is the same prophet from God but we know him differently. You know him to be God Himself and we know him to be man but not God and cannot be God because man is man and God is God because they are different things and can never ever be the same. Man has beginning and God does not have beginning and so God cannot be a man and God cannot die and God cannot be called Son/son and God cannot be Son/son to anyone. Anyone who is Son/son is not God and Jesus Christ of Nazareth is not God.
Jesus is the same person who all claim to know differently. Do you think your Jesus is the true Jesus but not others? You “dandyhead”. Muslims and any sensible person will conclude he is the same Jesus we all claim to know but know him differently.
Some historians and Christians alike do not believe Jesus was born in Bethlehem and the place called his birth place is not the place he was born.
Thanks.
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Oops and DSD
DSD, Oops did not catch me. The Hebrew Bible uses Pharoah instead of King. What we are saying is that the Quran is correct in using King when it is used and Pharoah when it is used and therefore the Bible did not get it right but the Quran gets it right. So the Quran did not copy from the Bible or any apocrypha.
Proof 1:
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0141.htm
Proof 2:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+41%3A1&version=RSVCE
Genesis 41:1New International Version (NIV)
Pharaoh’s Dreams
41 When two full years had passed, Pharaoh had a dream: He was standing by the Nile,
Genesis 41:1Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
Joseph Interprets Pharaoh’s Dream
41 After two whole years, Pharaoh dreamed that he was standing by the Nile,
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+41%3A1&version=RSVCE
If the Quran had copied from the Bible it would have made this mistake.
DSD, it does not matter who you are, whether Christian or not we all learning here and searching for the truth. You are right the Quran wins the Bible because Jesus did not think he is God and it can be found in the Bible itself and the Quran agreed with the Bible on that one.
The Quran did not agree Jesus is God or literal Son/son of God and that is correction from the Quran to the Bible and not copying from the Bible. Jesus could be a metaphorical son of God like the other sons of God in the Bible and there is not problem about that.
You claimed the discovery of the drowned Pharoah was debunked and you did not give us by who? and why was the world allowing the mummy to be displayed at Cairo’s museum as the drowned Pharoah of Moses time.
The Quran is talking about the Moses time Pharoah without name and he could be Mernaptah or Ramses. The Bible has so many inaccuracies, myths and contradictions like ghosts coming out from their graves and walking through the streets and many saw them and so the Bible is not reliable.
If the Bible says the name of Moses time is Ramses, that does not make it true because there are so many inconsistencies in the Bible.
Some historians including Christians do not believe where Christians make pilgrimage in Bethlehem today is not the Birth place of Jesus Christ
DSD
You said;
The Quran doesn’t mention the pharaoh of Moses by name so by that logic, he could be any one of the plenty of mummies discovered in the location (this by itself should be more than enough to dismiss the miracle claim).
I say;
The Quran said Allah will preserve the body of the Pharoah of Moses to serve as a witness for future generation. True a mummy was found and examined not by Muslims but by non Muslims to be the Pharoah of Moses and was on display at some major cities of the world as the Pharoah of Moses.
Whether the name is Ramses or Merneptah is not my cup of tea because the prediction of the Quran comes true. The Bible is not right of King and Pharoah so can be wrong and mix up names as well.
The preserved body of the Pharoah was found and it could Ramses or Merneptah but the body was found. DSD can bring examiners who says the body’s examination does not prove it is a Moses’s time Pharoah and write a petition to remove that description from the Cairo museum.
The Quran said despite this miracle, people will not heed to God(Allah’s) signs.
This is a clear sign displayed at Cairo’s museum and flown to cities and on internet for future generation to see without any major debunking but DSD is debunking it.
Thanks,
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Hi
What is all this rubbish about the bible getting it wrong in the time of Joseph about Pharoah and Kings…well the truth is the bible does say the leaders of Egypt were called Kings.
Gen 40:1 And it came to pass after these things, that the butler of the king of Egypt and his baker had offended their lord the king of Egypt.
You want another verse?
Gen 40:5 And they dreamed a dream both of them, each man his dream in one night, each man according to the interpretation of his dream, the butler and the baker of the king of Egypt, which were bound in the prison.
You want another verse?
Gen 41:46 And Joseph was thirty years old when he stood before Pharaoh king of Egypt. And Joseph went out from the presence of Pharaoh, and went throughout all the land of Egypt.
So you can clearly see that the ruler of Egypt in Joseph’s time was called King in the bible.
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Hi Intellect.
You said this…
God is the same God who created all of us, but I know Him(God) to be One, Only and Alone God of Abraham as the Bible said but you know Him(God) to be 3 persons 1 God who died even though the Bible said God does not die. He is the same God who created everything but we know Him(God) differently
I would like you if you could tell me about about the following scriptures.
Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Joh 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
These verses reveal that it was the trinity that was involved in the resurrection.
All three exist in the gospel message.
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defendchrist,
I’ve already tried to explain to Intellect how the Bible uses the phrase King and Pharaoh interchangeably when talking about the same person because it is something the reader would be familiar with. I also quoted from Genesis 39 which comes before Genesis 41 which he quoted to show that in Genesis 39, the leader of Egypt is called King. Later on he is called pharaoh also because like I said it was used interchangeably since it was talking about the same person and the reader would understand it from their time period. Genesis wasn’t written at the time of Joseph, by the time of Moses people would have been familiar with pharaoh’s as leaders of Egypt. Either way the Bible isn’t wrong since both the terms King and Pharaoh are used. But sadly, Intellect only wants to believe what he’s been indoctrinated to believe and can’t see it any other way.
Also Intellect, there was no one specific person who debunked this preservation of Pharaoh miracle, it is the evidence and data itself which debunks the miracle.
“and why was the world allowing the mummy to be displayed at Cairo’s museum as the drowned Pharoah of Moses time.” No the world didn’t display it as the pharaoh of Moses’ time, that’s only something that Muslim sites will put up without backing up the statement.
Intellect you say the Bible is full of inaccuracies and myths, yet historians are more likely to turn to the Bible to understand something about history rather than the Quran. The Bible mentions a people known as Hittites who were considered mythical people until only a century or 2 ago due to archaeological discoveries. By the way, you weren’t able to answer my points about Dhul-Qarnayn which is an obvious legendary story found in the Quran. Other legendary stories in the Quran include the seven sleepers in the cave and how they slept for 309 years and woke up in a different time period, Solomon understanding the speech of ants and commanding an army of birds and jinn and much more.
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Don’t non-intellect deceive you. His argument is based on dating the Exodus in the 13th century BC, whereas the overwhelming historical and archaeological evidence places it in the 16th century BC. Watch the following amazing documentary for the proof: http://patternsofevidence.com/
I believe you can watch this on NETFLIX.
You will be astonished to see the mass of extra-biblical evidence confirming the Genesis story of the migration ofJacob and his twelve sons, the story of Joseph, and the plagues during the time of Moses. I also recommend reading this article: http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2009/03/30/The-Biblical-Date-for-the-Exodus-is-1446-BC-A-Response-to-James-Hoffmeier.aspx#Article
With that said challenge non-intellect to show you proof from the Quran that the Exodus took place in the 13th century BC. in fact challenge to show you any date for the Exodus from the Quran!
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Here is another phenomenal article destroying the 13th century BC date: http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2008/04/The-Rise-and-Fall-of-the-13th-Century-Exodus-Conquest-Theory.aspx#Article
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Thanks Paul’s Pal I’ll check them out.
Interesting name by the way haha. Guess mines a bit strange too.
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I also go by the name of Sam Shamoun. 😉
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Ooh Answering Islam, I’m a fan. Has helped me and my friends and family a lot in understanding things. Keep it up.
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“DSD, it does not matter who you are, whether Christian or not we all learning here and searching for the truth. You are right the Quran wins the Bible because Jesus did not think he is God and it can be found in the Bible itself and the Quran agreed with the Bible on that one.”
Intellect I said the only historical point I see Islam winning over Christianity is that the historical Jesus probably did not see himself as God. I did not say anything about the Quran being right over the Bible. On every other point about the historical Jesus, the bible is far more accurate than the Quran as I’ve already mentioned above. In terms of whether Jesus was born in Bethlehem or Nazareth that is an issue indeed, however the Quran is silent on where Jesus was born so once again we turn to the bible to find out, despite the contradiction in his birth narrative. He was most likely born in Nazereth. Jesus was also most likely baptised by John the Baptist, another point where the Quran is silent. There are many historical facts or at least reliable information about Jesus found in the bible when you remove his divinity, miracles and prophecies. On many of these points the Quran is completely silent, that’s why I see more of a historical Jesus in the bible rather than Quran.
Finally with all this pharaoh and mummy stuff I’m getting tired of repeating myself. I’ve already presented to you so much information and could bring even more but you’re clearly one sided and biased when it comes to this so called miracle, I clearly won’t be able to open your eyes about it but if it makes you sleep better at night, hey who am I to discourage your faith?
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Oops
You said;
Intellect you say the Bible is full of inaccuracies and myths, yet historians are more likely to turn to the Bible to understand something about history rather than the Quran. The Bible mentions a people known as Hittites who were considered mythical people until only a century or 2 ago due to archaeological discoveries.
I say;
But when there is archaelological discoveries only a century or 2 ago with regards to story in the Quran, you reject it outfight without any proof of your rejection. The Pharoah of Moses time was not examined and displayed by Muslims or Muslim sites. It is disingenuous to claim as such. It is there at Cairo’s Museum and was on display at cities of the world for people to see as the Quran prophesised and it was not in the Bible that way.
I have not heard about this Hittites discovery and it was not a popular discovery but the Pharoahs discovery is very popular world over and with non Muslims alike but yet you reject the Pharoahs discovery as Muslim propaganda and very happy to stand by the Hittites discovery.
Oops, you sound like an objective and unbiased commenter here but with this one you are biased. Show us any official site like government site debunking what is displayed at Cairo’s museum as Moses time Pharoah.
If you are not able to prove that it is Muslim conspiracy to display a mummy at Cairo’s museum as Moses time Pharoah then it is disingenuous to claim a such.
To DSD, so many mummies were found but non was in good shaped and preserved like this one as the Quran said. Is this not a miracle of Allah? Allah concluded by saying some people will try to debunk this miracle. It is there in the Quran.
This display is officially displayed in the world by anyone including non Muslims as such but you are debunking all these facts without proof.
I do not care if the Bible has some truth in it because I believed it is the word of God but corrupted. The Hittites discovery which I have never heard of because it is unpopular is amazing and I have no problem with that. There are mysteries in the Bible that ghosts came out of their graves when Jesus cried and I am waiting to see that discovery because this blockbuster stories was reported by only one Gospel. Reporting a blockbuster story in only one Gospel? Mike Licona believed it was not reported well.
Thanks.
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Oops
You said;
Oops
July 28, 2016 • 9:49 am
Ooh Answering Islam, I’m a fan. Has helped me and my friends and family a lot in understanding things. Keep it up
I say;
Most of the writers on that site are uneducated on Islam. Paul’s Pal has no education is Christianity either. He does not speak Greek, Arabic, Hebrew, Aramaic etc. and you do not want to base your research on such site. No wonder you are arguing without proof. What you said here is from the site.
May be you are new in apologetics. Some Christians have quit using the sites material and start to take not serious one of its writers because he cannot go back to school and learn.
There are so many Christians on this blog but you are the only arguing about this Pharoahs body following what the site has said.
You accused me of giving evidence of non Muslims on this Pharoahs body from a Muslim site. What have you done? Getting everything from a Christian site including articles from someone who has no qualification in either Islam or Christianity.
Thanks.
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“By the way look at this:
ham-me-leḵ הַמֶּ֖לֶךְ of the king
This is a translation of Genesis 39:20 in the story of Joseph, talking about the King of Egypt. The word used is king rather than pharaoh, so like I mentioned in a previous reply, this so called correction only applies to English translations of the bible that translated the Hebrew word for King “melek” as pharaoh instead. In the original Hebrew the word is melek, which is where the Arabic term “malik” is derived from. So in reality there is no problem. In the Hebrew also, pharaoh and melek were used interchangeably since they applied to the same person.”
This is my own research, I haven’t been checking answering Islam. You make silly accusations against me and you say I’m the one not presenting proof. Besides in regards to the information regarding pharaoh and King, the site is correct and you can do your own research beyond the site to verify that. Simplest thing to do is read a Hebrew and English bible side by side, and translate each word.
When you get to Genesis 39:20 in Hebrew you’ll find the word “הַמֶּ֖לֶךְ” which means “of the King” in English. This is talking about the King of Egypt in the story of Joseph. This research I did by myself to verify so don’t make silly accusations against me that I’m being biased. There are plenty of other verses in Genesis and even Exodus which describes the leader as “king of Egypt”, I found those on the answering Islam site however I verified them for myself and they are correct. You are the one that referenced a Muslim site which is completely biased without verifying the information for yourself, you just blindly believe what it says. By the way, plenty of mummy’s have been well preserved in the tombs that have been discovered, it just shows how great the ancient Egyptians were at mummification. To say only one mummy is well preserved is just a repeat of what you read from the Muslim side and that is a fact. You don’t even know the actual information yourself because you haven’t bothered to check. Cairo museum doesn’t say that the pharaoh is from the time of Moses because historians and archaeologists have not found any evidence of who the pharaoh of Moses was. As mentioned earlier there are plenty of candidates and non are known for sure.
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Oops
What we are saying is that, the Bible used Pharoah in the Egyptian dynasty i.e. in Joseph time and that King was not referred to as Pharoah at that time. I provided the Hebrew Bible above to show Pharoah was used.
History and research shows Pharoah is used for the Egyptian dynasty later and at the time of Joseph Pharoah is not used to refer to the King of Egypt but later.
The Bible could use King and Pharoah but the Quran accurately never use Pharoah at Joseph’s time.
MUMMY
Show us proof of mummy at ancient Egypt that is preserved and in good shape like the one under scrutiny by die hard Christians. Some Christians believed that Pharoah is the Pharoah of Moses but not die hard like you who will want to debunk anything Islam by visiting Christian sites.
I did not debunk your Hittites claim because it could be true and that is not my cup of tea. Why do you take as your cup of tea to debunk un-debunkable story of Pharoah in the Quran who was preserved at the Cairo Museum?
You know it crushed Christianity for a God other than the Bible to predict such a discovery. May be you have to visit Cairo Museum and do more research and you will realize the Mummy is identified as the Moses time Pharoah. It is clear and any Muslim site and some Christian sites are just photographing what is there at Cairo’s Museum. No government, Official, historians, archaeologist etc. has come our to deny this great recovery except you and other die hard Christians.
The Pharoahs body at Cairo’s museum is one of the tourist attractions at the Cairos museum because most people(Muslims and non Muslims believed it is the body yet you are denying all these is happening.
I am surprised to hear from you that Egypt, Cairo museum did not display the Pharoh’s mummy as the Pharoah of Moses time. It is clear
defendchrist, you liked my comment. Is it a mistake? Or you are being objective and unbiased?
Thanks
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Hi Intellect
The reason why it was a slip of the mouse as I was trying to click on reply…not like.I don’t the believe the Koran is the word of God and so I dont waste my time trying to refute Muslims. You are already blatantly wrong about the bible getting wrong about kings in the days of Joseph.
There are Muslims all over the internet even at speakers corner in London spouting the same rubbish.
the way Muhammad received the Koran is not that different from Joseph Smith the founder of Mormonism.
He claimed an angel appeared to him…couldn’t understand what was written.
if he asked him to read…what was he asking him to read? he would have to be looking at something
if he asked him to recite…it is something done from memory, it would have to be something he had knowledge of previously recite means to repeat from memory.
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Intellect here’s what you’re not understanding, the Bible uses both the phrases King And Pharaoh during Joseph’s time. The Quran didn’t correct anything. Once the passage established that the leader was the king of Egypt, both the words pharaoh and King were then used interchangeably so that the reader can understand who the passage is talking about. Genesis 39 comes before Genesis 41, so even if Genesis 41 uses pharaoh (I haven’t checked the Hebrew yet), the word King was used in Genesis 39. There is no error to correct. That’s like me writing a historical book about Jesus and calling him the Nazarene but then later also calling him Christ. Both titles apply to him regardless of which one he was associated with earlier. Besides that the Quran calls Jesus and his disciples Muslims even though they never called themselves by that term. The Quran explicitly quotes Jesus’ disciples saying “we are Muslims” in surah 3:52 and 5:111, even though they never used the actual phrase “Muslim” because it is an Arabic word. However what the Quran is trying to say is that Jesus’ disciples submitted their will to God. Now I can be as ignorant as you and say the Quran made a mistake by quoting Jesus’ disciples because in reality they didn’t say that. Likewise, if the Bible calls the King of Egypt Pharaoh there is no real contradiction even if he wasn’t called pharaoh at that time because in hindsight we can look back and understand where it’s coming from. However, as has been mentioned such a number of times, the Bible uses King in its correct place. This argument should have been settled so long ago, no the Quran doesn’t correct the Bible on this issue.
Intellect, Merneptah’s mummy has been just as well preserved as Rameses II. This is why I mentioned above that even Muslims themselves don’t know which mummy it is that the Quran speaks about. I’m not going to send anything for you, I want you to do your own research, think for yourself, live up to your name if you are a true intellect. Simply type “valley of the kings burial sites” and you’ll see plenty of tombs all over that area that have well preserved mummies of different Egyptian pharaohs inside. When you’ve done that see if you can answer this question, which mummy or which pharaoh was it that the Quran prophesied to preserve?
I haven’t been trying my best to debunk this myth, you are the one that brought it up first as an argument against the Bible, believe me I have other things I would have wished to focus on such as the actual topic itself.
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defendchrist
You said;
the way Muhammad received the Koran is not that different from Joseph Smith the founder of Mormonism.
He claimed an angel appeared to him…couldn’t understand what was written.
if he asked him to read…what was he asking him to read? he would have to be looking at something
if he asked him to recite…it is something done from memory, it would have to be something he had knowledge of previously recite means to repeat from memory.
I say;
I know you do not believe in the Quran and I also do not believe some of the Bible. So, we have to come into common terms.
The God of the Bible clearly said he is Only One and Alone and He is God and nothing else. Your believe of God as 3 persons/beings contradict the Bible and therefore who ever gave you that information must have received it from something else.
Your have councils upon councils defining your God and Paul of Tarsus receives his message just like Joseph Smith of the Mormons. He could have received his information from Satan.
Islam says before we do anything we must seek refuge into the only one God of Abraham away from Satan the cursed one. That is what Prophet Mohammed said from the Quran, so his message could have been from Satan but from the Bible.
3 persons 1 God is not in the Bible or God dying for peoples sin is not in the Bible so it must have come from Satan.
With regards to Hebrew Bible calling the King Pharoah at the time of Joseph, I provided the proof up the comments.
Thanks.
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defendchrist
I mean prophet Mohammed message could not have been from Satan but from the only one God of Abraham who asked him(Mohammed) to tell people to worship only one God of Abraham who is alone and one and only one and away from Satan.
Joseph Smith, just like Trinitarians believe in persons as God or Mutipersonal God so Paul of Tarsus and the councils that defined Trinitarian God must have got their message from the same source. While Islam, Judaism and some Unitarian Christians get their message of the nature of God from the Bible and from the God of Abraham Himself.
Thanks.
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Oops
I have this one as the well preserved mummy among the valley of the Kings. The rest are in bad shape and well decayed. You can give me another preserved body like this one.
Thanks
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“I have this one as the well preserved mummy among the valley of the Kings. The rest are in bad shape and well decayed. You can give me another preserved body like this one.”
Lol I can’t believe this, I’m done. You lose Intellect.
Find another miracle to hold on to, not this one.
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As I said some Christians believe this mummy i.e. at Cairo’s museum is the Pharoah of Moses time except some die hard Christians like you.
Give us any mummy at the valley of the Kings that is in good shape like this one-the Pharoahs time mummy at the Cairo’s museum
Thanks.
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Intellect it doesn’t matter what some Christians or some Muslims believe, we don’t know yet! Until then everything else is just speculation and requires more investigation.
And there are plenty of mummies from the valley in good shape, this is what makes me laugh about your persistence. Seriously put your energy into something else because it’s wasted enough of mine now.
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Oops
You said;
And there are plenty of mummies from the valley in good shape, this is what makes me laugh about your persistence. Seriously put your energy into something else because it’s wasted enough of mine now.
I say;
You failed to provide a proof from the valley of kings in good shape. Prove it. The Pharoah of the Quran is no secret and it is at the museum in Egypt in good shape considering thousands of years it existed. I is all over internet, youtube, web sites etc. and was flown to cities in the world to see it.
I challenge you to provide us with a proof from the valley of the kings that is in good shape like the Pharoah of the Quran(Moses time).
The Quran did not mention name some thousands of years ago about this discovery and so it is perfect miracle. Those arguing about the name can get to hell, it is not my cup of tea.
What the Quran said will happen has happened except die hard Christians who will not accept this miracle or the Quran. The Quran mentioned them and said they will be heedless.
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We brought the tribe of Israel across the sea, and Pharaoh and his troops pursued them out of tyranny and enmity. Then, when he was on the point of drowning, he [Pharaoh] said: “I believe that there is no god but Him in Whom the tribe of Israel believes. I am one of the Muslims.” (Qur’an, 10:90)
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However, this last-minute conversion was not accepted, for it was not sincere. According to the Qur’an, Allah exclaimed:
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“What, now! When previously you rebelled and were one of the corrupters? Today we will preserve your body so you can be a Sign for people who come after you. Surely many people are heedless of Our Signs.” (Qur’an, 10:91-92)
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The Quran did not copy from the Bible or any apocrypha but it is from God with extra additions and deletions from the Biblical stories to correcting them like saying clearly Jesus and his mother are not God but human beings who ate food. Is this a copy from something? when that thing is being corrected.
Prophet Mohammed could have said Oh Jesus died for our sins and God is 3 in one to entice Christians. He did not say that but to say what God ask him to say and that is the truth but not to use lies to whoo them. It is human nature like Donald Trump, Hillary Clinton, Obama and Musli, Jewish, Hindu, Christian, etc. leaders to lie for their personal gains.
Do you see lie here? When prophet Mohammed added to the story of Moses he has no idea of but to die without the discovery of the Pharoah. But now people like you are not seeing how the world over people are visiting Egypt to see this great discovery.
Blogging here is also learning and do not think we are doing nothin here. I got information about Hittites from you and it is a learning curve. You quickly accepted and brought this less unknown discovery but outright rejected this well known discovery of the Moses time pharaoh because it validates Islam. Shame on you for that my good friend.
Oops, the Quran said you are heedless of God’s sign. You follow Sam Shamoun to your own peril. I bet you he has nothing to offer you than lies and illogical arguments like his religion.
Thanks.
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Hi Intellect
you said this…
The Quran did not copy from the Bible or any apocrypha but it is from God with extra additions and deletions from the Biblical stories to correcting them like saying clearly Jesus and his mother are not God but human beings who ate food. Is this a copy from something? when that thing is being corrected.
where does the bible teach Jesus and Mary are God? where did the Koran get that from?
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Hi Faiz
you said this…
Yes, there is. The New Testament is contradictory, full of absurdities and false prophecies. There is every reason to doubt it.
can you please explain to me where Muslims or rather Muhammad get the understanding that Jesus is the Messiah and a prophet at the same time.
where is it written?
please list at least a few of the false prophecies
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