I am sure they will come back with “oh But Jesus was not a man” then you could point out that he was “fully man & fully God” at the same time so the man part of him had t die on the cross.
Jesus is both God and man. His love for humanity caused Him to voluntarily come, become human (John 1:1; 1:14; Philippians 2:5-8) and live a sinless life and be the atonement for sins. That is good news.
John 3:16
Romans 5:8
John 10:18
“The Word was God” (John 1:1) . . . “and the Word became flesh” (John 1:14)
“who although existing in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be held onto at all costs, but by becoming a servant, by becoming a man, He humbled Himself . . . Philippians 2:5-8
No; the apostles rebuked Greek mythology – see Acts chapter 17, Colossians 2, book of 1 John.
Nascent Gnosticism came from Greek mythology and dualisms and radical separation between spirit and flesh. Islam actually has some of that thinking, like the Hadith that says that Satan dwells in your nose at night and that you can wash him out with water. What a goofy and superstitious idea !! I knew about that Hadith 30 years ago, long before David Wood did his video on it recently.
Greek gods (plural; polytheism) do not become incarnate.
The one true God was three persons from all eternity and one person of the one true God became flesh. The Son, the Word, the second person of the Triu-une God, became flesh.
Jesus isn’t God! It’s absurd and one of the many epic tragedies of the Apostate church! God can’t flipping die Hab 1:12! I know that trinies so bad in their poor little hearts want it to be true “God loved us so much he died for our sins”,talk about being ego maniacs self centered people! I love this idea about an incarnate God so much that I will blasphem him at the expense of my ego centric theology driven by emotion and not scripture. You guys mock and dishonor God with your false doctrines and yet it’s us Unitarians that got thrusted by the wayside by the insane Gentile Church.
The church of Jesus Christ is that Christ was crucified, died and resurrected. Unitarians and Trinitarians belong to that church despite theological disputes. The foundation of the faith is the resurrection not the trinity (see 1 Corinthians 15).
The fact of the matter is this; Trinitarians have never accepted us Unitarians as part of the fold! There is a stigma associated with being truly Monotheistic! Go figure. I’m fed up with Trinitarians and the mental gymnastics thats an integral part of every brand of Trinitarian apologetic.
Jesus is very clear on who and what God is, I mean seriously, can the Shema be any clearer? I just dont see the scriptures that Trinitarians find in every nook and cranny of the Bible that purportedly support their Theological conclusions as valid when they are contexualized against the broader corpus and witness of scripture.
A Muslim brother brought up the fact that God can’t die, I supplied a scripture that declares those exact words, GOD CAN NOT DIE Hab 1:12″. Jesus died therefore Jesus is not = to YHWH. Is Jesus exalted? Is he given a name higher than any name in heaven or on earth? Yes, yes indeed, but it is because YHWH exalted him and gave him a name above all others, how sacreligious to think God (who by definition is above all) could some how be given a name greater than what he already and eternally has and is! Absurd, it’s flipping absurd!
why would a pious scribe change it to “we” – “you” actually sounds better, in context, and makes more sense theologically.
Of course Christians don’t believe that God can die either, and it does not mean “cease to exist”, so Jesus, as the God-man, can and did die and paid for our sins.
‘Of course Christians don’t believe that God can die either, and it does not mean “cease to exist”, so Jesus, as the God-man, can and did die and paid for our sins.’
No worries brother Jason, Jesus was persecuted and insulted for his views but he strived because he had a greater vision before him. We must follow his example and persevere despite the persecution, even if it is from our own fellow believers.
One of Jesus’ words on the cross was “father forgive them, for they don’t know what they are doing.” Luke 23:34.
Likewise Jesus said “Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.” John 15:20
And finally, Paul says “For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all.” 2 Corinthians 4:17
Though Unitarians may be marginalised by Trinitarians, don’t let that discourage you. God is the sustainer of all, whether Muslim, Jew or Christian so it is to Him we submit and humble ourselves toward. In due time He shall raise you up (1 Peter 5:6).
Feel free to browse through the Trinity delusion web page you can find your answers there. What I meant my “insane gentile Chuch” was simply a reference to their absurd and heretical teachings, the Trinity being a prime example!
Btw, I consider myself a Bibilical Unitarian. I don’t belong to any specific Christian religious denomination.
the New World Translation of Jehovah’s Witnesses has :
Are you not from everlasting, O Jehovah?
O my God, my Holy One, you do not die.
So I guess you are a JW.
The Trinity is not a delusion and I have studied the doctrine for years, and I have pretty much I think, heard most all of the different issues and nuances of how to understand it and arguments against it.
(and heresies)
The Holy Trinity: In Scripture, History, and Theology, by Robert Letham is good –
‘Of course Christians don’t believe that God can die either, and it does not mean “cease to exist”, so Jesus, as the God-man, can and did die and paid for our sins.’
Statement 1: ‘Christians don’t believe that God can die’
God as God cannot die; but Jesus, the Son of God died.
Obviously the divine nature in Jesus did not die, because death is not applicable to God.
Death does not mean “cease to exist”.
Even you as a Muslim can see that, as our spirit/soul continues on after death awaiting the day of resurrection; and some will go to heaven/paradise and others to hell.
Trinitarians are master at the fallacy of equivocation when it comes to the Trinity. Concepts like man, death, given,died,greater than, firstborn and countless more are all swept under the Trinitarian umbrella so to speak, because again, Trinitarians are more in love with the idea of the Trinity than with the actual facts.
It’s all a huge word game. So Ken, do you believe that YHWH is the only true God according to John 17:3?
Yes, Yahweh is the one true God, but in John 17:3 Jesus is speaking to the Father, and He includes the Son whom the Father has sent. ( 2 persons of the Trinity)
The Father is Yahweh by nature/substance.
the Son is Yahweh (Lord) by nature/substance. (YHWH- יהוה is translated as kupios – κυριος in the Lxx)
the Holy Spirit is also Yahweh by nature /substance.
they are One in substance; One God;
and three in persons; from all eternity.
John 17:3 shows the personal relationship of two of the roles/relationships. The Father sends the Son. Difference in role and person.
God as God cannot die; but Jesus, the Son of God died.
I say;
Yes, Yahweh is the one true God, but in John 17:3 Jesus is speaking to the Father, and He includes the Son whom the Father has sent. ( 2 persons of the Trinity)You said;
I say;
madmanna, your fellow Trinitarian will not agree with you on this one. The Bible clearly said God is 1. If God is one and possesses all His attributes then NO PERSON, NO PERSON, NO PERSON can possess all His God attributes.
Jesus does not possess all the Father attributes because Jesus cannot generate/create the Son from eternity which is the attribute of only the Father.
The Father has the attribute of sending the Son and the Son cannot send the Father so God is one and possesses all His attributes and no person including Jesus can possess all His God attributes.
Blogging Theology 
I am sure they will come back with “oh But Jesus was not a man” then you could point out that he was “fully man & fully God” at the same time so the man part of him had t die on the cross.
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No sinful man can die for another person’s sins.
Jesus was sinless, so He could die for our sins; and He was God also.
as you wrote, “fully man and fully God”
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If he is God, he cannot die.
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Jesus is both God and man. His love for humanity caused Him to voluntarily come, become human (John 1:1; 1:14; Philippians 2:5-8) and live a sinless life and be the atonement for sins. That is good news.
John 3:16
Romans 5:8
John 10:18
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God does not “become” anything. God is not a man. God does not die.
LikeLiked by 1 person
“The Word was God” (John 1:1) . . . “and the Word became flesh” (John 1:14)
“who although existing in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be held onto at all costs, but by becoming a servant, by becoming a man, He humbled Himself . . . Philippians 2:5-8
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Greek mythology
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No; the apostles rebuked Greek mythology – see Acts chapter 17, Colossians 2, book of 1 John.
Nascent Gnosticism came from Greek mythology and dualisms and radical separation between spirit and flesh. Islam actually has some of that thinking, like the Hadith that says that Satan dwells in your nose at night and that you can wash him out with water. What a goofy and superstitious idea !! I knew about that Hadith 30 years ago, long before David Wood did his video on it recently.
LikeLike
Greek Gods become man and die. The one true God Allah does not.
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Greek gods (plural; polytheism) do not become incarnate.
The one true God was three persons from all eternity and one person of the one true God became flesh. The Son, the Word, the second person of the Triu-une God, became flesh.
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Individual pagan Gods become man and die and resurrect.
Trinitarianism is like Gnosticism. The man part dies and the God gets away.
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Jesus isn’t God! It’s absurd and one of the many epic tragedies of the Apostate church! God can’t flipping die Hab 1:12! I know that trinies so bad in their poor little hearts want it to be true “God loved us so much he died for our sins”,talk about being ego maniacs self centered people! I love this idea about an incarnate God so much that I will blasphem him at the expense of my ego centric theology driven by emotion and not scripture. You guys mock and dishonor God with your false doctrines and yet it’s us Unitarians that got thrusted by the wayside by the insane Gentile Church.
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Great post Jason! It’s so refreshing to hear an alternative Christian view, one that is free of the trinitarian bias and nonsense.
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Faiz,
Thanks, keep defending and proclaiming the Unity of God! God is one.
Peace
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Jason,
Do you accept Philippians 2:5-8 and John 1:1-5 and 1:14 as inspired Scripture? (or any of the NT ?)
If so, how do you explain them?
If not, why would you use the phrases “Apostate church” and “insane Gentile church” ?
What kind of Church and theology do you ascribe to?
Jehovah’s Witness or Judaism ?
or something else?
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The church of Jesus Christ is that Christ was crucified, died and resurrected. Unitarians and Trinitarians belong to that church despite theological disputes. The foundation of the faith is the resurrection not the trinity (see 1 Corinthians 15).
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The fact of the matter is this; Trinitarians have never accepted us Unitarians as part of the fold! There is a stigma associated with being truly Monotheistic! Go figure. I’m fed up with Trinitarians and the mental gymnastics thats an integral part of every brand of Trinitarian apologetic.
Jesus is very clear on who and what God is, I mean seriously, can the Shema be any clearer? I just dont see the scriptures that Trinitarians find in every nook and cranny of the Bible that purportedly support their Theological conclusions as valid when they are contexualized against the broader corpus and witness of scripture.
A Muslim brother brought up the fact that God can’t die, I supplied a scripture that declares those exact words, GOD CAN NOT DIE Hab 1:12″. Jesus died therefore Jesus is not = to YHWH. Is Jesus exalted? Is he given a name higher than any name in heaven or on earth? Yes, yes indeed, but it is because YHWH exalted him and gave him a name above all others, how sacreligious to think God (who by definition is above all) could some how be given a name greater than what he already and eternally has and is! Absurd, it’s flipping absurd!
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What version are you using? Habakkuk 1:12 says “we will not die”. Are you a Jehovah’s witness?
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In the NIV it reads:
LORD, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, you will never die.
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Interesting. The Masoretic Text has “we” and the other versions I looked at: NASB, ESV, KJV – all have “we”.
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12 Lord, are you not from everlasting?
My God, my Holy One, you[c] will never die.
Thanks Paul,
This is from the NIV.
Ken,
Do you believe God can die?
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Ken
The TANAKH translation of the Jewish Study Bible reads:
‘You, O LORD, are from everlasting;
My holy God, You* never die.’
*Heb. “we,” a change made by a pious scribe
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why would a pious scribe change it to “we” – “you” actually sounds better, in context, and makes more sense theologically.
Of course Christians don’t believe that God can die either, and it does not mean “cease to exist”, so Jesus, as the God-man, can and did die and paid for our sins.
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Ken you contradict yourself when you claim:
‘Of course Christians don’t believe that God can die either, and it does not mean “cease to exist”, so Jesus, as the God-man, can and did die and paid for our sins.’
Can you spot the contradiction?
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No worries brother Jason, Jesus was persecuted and insulted for his views but he strived because he had a greater vision before him. We must follow his example and persevere despite the persecution, even if it is from our own fellow believers.
One of Jesus’ words on the cross was “father forgive them, for they don’t know what they are doing.” Luke 23:34.
Likewise Jesus said “Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.” John 15:20
And finally, Paul says “For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all.” 2 Corinthians 4:17
Though Unitarians may be marginalised by Trinitarians, don’t let that discourage you. God is the sustainer of all, whether Muslim, Jew or Christian so it is to Him we submit and humble ourselves toward. In due time He shall raise you up (1 Peter 5:6).
Peace to all
LikeLiked by 1 person
Ken,
Feel free to browse through the Trinity delusion web page you can find your answers there. What I meant my “insane gentile Chuch” was simply a reference to their absurd and heretical teachings, the Trinity being a prime example!
Btw, I consider myself a Bibilical Unitarian. I don’t belong to any specific Christian religious denomination.
LikeLiked by 1 person
the New World Translation of Jehovah’s Witnesses has :
Are you not from everlasting, O Jehovah?
O my God, my Holy One, you do not die.
So I guess you are a JW.
The Trinity is not a delusion and I have studied the doctrine for years, and I have pretty much I think, heard most all of the different issues and nuances of how to understand it and arguments against it.
(and heresies)
The Holy Trinity: In Scripture, History, and Theology, by Robert Letham is good –
https://www.amazon.com/Holy-Trinity-Scripture-History-Theology/dp/0875520006
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Jews translate their Scriptures this way too. Are they JWs?
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oh, ok; “you do not die”, actually makes sense in context. I would need to spend time in looking at the textual data though.
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Hey Paul,
It is not a contradiction, as Dr. White showed in his excellent debate with Abdullah Kunde.
Abdullah Kunde is very sincere and really seeks to understand Christians, and doesn’t play ad hominem games.
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2013/08/18/debate-can-god-become-a-man-james-white-vs-abdullah-kunde/
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So you didn’t spot it.
Ken you contradict yourself when you claim:
‘Of course Christians don’t believe that God can die either, and it does not mean “cease to exist”, so Jesus, as the God-man, can and did die and paid for our sins.’
Statement 1: ‘Christians don’t believe that God can die’
Statement 2: ‘the God-man, can and did die’
Elementary.
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God as God cannot die; but Jesus, the Son of God died.
Obviously the divine nature in Jesus did not die, because death is not applicable to God.
Death does not mean “cease to exist”.
Even you as a Muslim can see that, as our spirit/soul continues on after death awaiting the day of resurrection; and some will go to heaven/paradise and others to hell.
So it is not a contradiction.
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It is a flat out contradiction, unless you have your own definition what death means or what God means.
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Eric,
God bless bro.
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Ken,
Trinitarians are master at the fallacy of equivocation when it comes to the Trinity. Concepts like man, death, given,died,greater than, firstborn and countless more are all swept under the Trinitarian umbrella so to speak, because again, Trinitarians are more in love with the idea of the Trinity than with the actual facts.
It’s all a huge word game. So Ken, do you believe that YHWH is the only true God according to John 17:3?
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Who do you believe Jesus to be Jason?
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Yes, Yahweh is the one true God, but in John 17:3 Jesus is speaking to the Father, and He includes the Son whom the Father has sent. ( 2 persons of the Trinity)
The Father is Yahweh by nature/substance.
the Son is Yahweh (Lord) by nature/substance. (YHWH- יהוה is translated as kupios – κυριος in the Lxx)
the Holy Spirit is also Yahweh by nature /substance.
they are One in substance; One God;
and three in persons; from all eternity.
John 17:3 shows the personal relationship of two of the roles/relationships. The Father sends the Son. Difference in role and person.
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Eric – don’t Muslims believe the soul / spirit continues after death? (until the day of resurrection of the body)
Explain it please; death means separation of the soul from the body, not “cease to exist”.
Souls continue to live – believers in heaven and unbelievers in hell.
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κυριος = kurios (Lord) in Greek
sorry for typo
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Ken Temple
You said;
Ken Temple
August 12, 2016 • 9:30 pm
God as God cannot die; but Jesus, the Son of God died.
I say;
Yes, Yahweh is the one true God, but in John 17:3 Jesus is speaking to the Father, and He includes the Son whom the Father has sent. ( 2 persons of the Trinity)You said;
I say;
madmanna, your fellow Trinitarian will not agree with you on this one. The Bible clearly said God is 1. If God is one and possesses all His attributes then NO PERSON, NO PERSON, NO PERSON can possess all His God attributes.
Jesus does not possess all the Father attributes because Jesus cannot generate/create the Son from eternity which is the attribute of only the Father.
The Father has the attribute of sending the Son and the Son cannot send the Father so God is one and possesses all His attributes and no person including Jesus can possess all His God attributes.
Thanks.
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