This video is going to put the cat amongst the pigeons. But it is hilarious!
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Categories: Islamophobia, Silly, Utterly idiotic
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Blogging Theology 
As they say, OUCH!
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methinks tripple OUCH!
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I’d be careful however Paul as Jonathan might end up doing a several hour response to this called “Hitler Exposed!”
Assuming he has survived his encounter with the Inquisitors after he was revealed to be a heretic 😉
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The Hitler Reacts to Germany not beating Spain in the 2010 World Cup is much funnier.
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have you got the link?
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https://youtu.be/pXSmAQe2R4A some of the language is pretty strong.
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Once again Muslims following behind the Christians. David Wood did it first a year or to ago.
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correction “a year or to ago” should be “a year or so ago”
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Ironic,
since,
Hitler admired both the warrior like religions of the Japanese religion and Islam:
According to Albert Speer (Hitler’s architect), Hitler stated in private:
“It’s been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn’t we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?”
Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy, by Eric Metaxas, page 165, in the chapter “Nazi Theology”. The whole chapter is very insightful.
Metaxas does an excellent job in showing how Hitler manipulated and deceived the people and the churches in Germany; and at the same time, had to hold off the more radical leaders under him like Alfred Rosenberg, Heinrich Himmler, Martin Bormann, and Reinhard Heydrich, who wanted to destroy the churches sooner and outright, and create a new pagan religion with roots of the War-like Germanic tribal ancient roots.
Hitler told them that it was not pragmatic and they would loose support of the people and came right out and was more openly against the churches. Hitler kept putting them off and saying things like, “not now”, “that’s too soon”; “we have to win the war first, then maybe”, etc.
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Ken why was the Church in Germany duped by an obvious lunatic if the HS was supposedly inside them?
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The Holy Spirit does not work in “churches” (buildings with mostly nominal and unregenerate people) that don’t have regenerated people in them. The Holy Spirit only lives in truly born-again people; truly regenerated people. The regenerated (born again) Christians were the ones that rebelled against Hitler – and created the Barmen Declaration against him and had to go underground or were expelled. (like Karl Barth who was fired from his position and left Germany and went to safe Switzerland.
I am just curious and please forgive me for not knowing, but “Patrice” in English is the feminine form of Patrick. Are you French? Are you a man or a woman? Sorry if I never saw before if you talked about that before.
If you are French, then surely (maybe I am wrong; but you have said you are not a Muslim, but I guess you are examining it and thinking about it; maybe you grew up atheist and never studied the history of Christianity, etc. forgive if I am wrong about that); you would/ should have enough historical background to know what a nominal Christian is (in name and culture, but not in reality; and history is full of people like that.)
The German churches (both Lutheran and Roman Catholic) had already become shells of dead institutions because of liberalism. Going to a church or getting baptized as a baby does not cause salvation or new life.
Karl Barth, Deitrich Bonhoeffer, and the others who oppossed Hitler and had to go underground were the true believers. They were a very small group. Read Eric Metaxas’ book on Bonhoeffer. It is good.
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Was Martin Luther not the cause for much of the anti-semitism that permeated German society at that time? Would he count as unregenerate? I suppose he must if considering what defines as person as “born again” would be those who opposed Hitler.
It would seem you are commiting the ‘no true scotsman’ fallacy in your attempt to define those people you like (or the ones history now supports, but were most certainly not supported at the time) as the ‘true believers’.
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Luther was not the sole cause. Germans and other Europeans, and in fact, humans by nature are nationalistc, prejudiced, and biased, and racist, because of sin in the heart. See Mark 7:20-23; Jeremiah 17:9; Isaiah chapter 1; Genesis 6:5.
Luther’s writing on the Jews was used by some, but there is almost 500 years gap. Anti-semitism is much deeper than that; and it exists in many cultures – especially Islamic cultures – the Sahih Hadiths that say “fighting against the Jews will not end until the day of resurrection; . . . a tree and a rock will say “there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.” etc. That is not just “anti-Zionism”, that is anti-Jewish as people, ie, “anti-Semitisim”.
Are you French? Are you a man or a woman?
Were you raised an atheist or secularist or what?
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Ken my personal life is neither your business nor does it address the inherent anti-semitism that you acknowledge (I think?) existed and was perpetuated by the likes of Martin Luther. Besides you didn’t answer my question about whether Luther was unregenerate due to his views if they are to be considered unChristian.
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Luther was a true believer, but what he wrote at the end of his life, the little tract, “On the Jews and their lies” was wrong and sinful.
I don’t agree with that at all. Luther was wrong on that.
But there is lots of scholarly discussion about that over the centuries. So much has been written on it, difficult to digest.
James Swan has done a lot of research on Luther and the Jews issue. Just here there are 17 different articles.
http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/search/label/Luther%20and%20the%20Jews
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Sorry; I meant no offense about your name or where you are from. But it sounds French or western at least, and you should know difference between cultural Christianity and true Christianity.
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Typo:
Hitler told them that it was not pragmatic and they would loose support of the people if they came right out and was more openly against the churches.
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There are SOME parallels with why so many people in USA (Mostly uneducated, rural; people who have lost jobs and suffered under liberal policies, etc. anger at political correctness, etc.) were duped in the Republican primary by Donald Trump and his demagoguery, simplistic answers, and rhetoric.
The masses are “low information” voters and people who are busy with their lives/ jobs/ and after work, take a break, watch movies, play games, sports, leisure, get drunk, parties, etc.
Most people do not have time, nor do they take the time to study these kinds of issues.
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The Holy Spirit is only in true believers in Jesus Christ.
16 I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
John 14:16-17
And, the Holy Spirit cannot be Muhammad, because he came 600 years later and was never with the disciples and cannot live “in” them.
Many other verses on this issue all through the NT.
John 7:37-39 – this He was speaking about the Spirit, whom the believers will receive . . .
1 Corinthians 6:19-20
Romans chapter 8
I John 2:18-27
1 John 4
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Lol, Ken’s response to Patrice is truly pathetic. He can’t provide a logical answer and instead tries to deflect onto Islam. I’m noticing this trend among the missionaries. They always try to deflect from answering difficult questions about their religion and instead pontificate on Islam based on their idiotic views.
Ken, you’ve been refuted on the hadith about a war between Jews and Muslims before. You are truly pathetic to be still be clinging to your silly arguments.
By the way, remind me which book refers to a “synagogue of Satan”? Hmm, which book was that?
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So Ken, I assume you think you have the holy spirit?
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How is it pathetic?
You did not refute those Sahih Hadiths before.
Yes, I have the Holy Spirit.
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because Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to those who trust in Him. John 7:37-39; 14:16-17, Luke 24:49; Acts 1:8
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LOL, yes I refuted you and so did brother Paul. You are just too deluded to get it through your head.
So Ken, remind me again. Which book refers to a “synagogue of Satan”? Tell me, I’m dying to know!
So, if you have the holy spirit and are a “true believer”, can you move mountains? Can you tell me some personal information about myself that no one can possibly know? Can you heal people who are suffering from terminal illnesses? I ask because, after all, you are confident that you have the holy spirit. 😉
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where was the Sahih hadiths about fighting the Jews until the day of resurrection refuted?
Having the Holy Spirit does not guarantee one can do those things. You are watching too much heretical “Christian TV”. God the Holy Spirit never promised always being healed; never promised ability to see into others hearts and minds, and the text about “moving mountains” does not mean literally. The “mountain” Jesus was referring to in context in Mark 11 was to pray and speak against not having any fruit, reality, or repentance in your life. (leafy fig trees without fruit – without good works or evidence of goodness.)
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Ken are you know sinless and no longer sin cos the God the spirit dwells inside you?
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The NT never claims that someone who has the Holy Spirit will be sinless.
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okay so whilst God dwells inside your body .. you continue to sin regardless?…
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no one ever attains to perfection; but a true believer does not constantly continue in sin without repentance and confession of their own sin. See 1 John 1:5-10 and 2:1-2; Romans 6:1-7
“What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be rendered powerless, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed (or justified) from sin.” Romans 6:1-7
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The following hadith which forms a part of these Sahih Muslim hadiths has been quoted many times, and it has become a part of the charter of Hamas.
“
The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (the Boxthorn tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews. (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).
Sahih Muslim, 41:6985, see also Sahih Muslim, 41:6981, Sahih Muslim, 41:6982, Sahih Muslim, 41:6983, Sahih Muslim, 41:6984, Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:56:791,(Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:52:177)
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LOL, yes it is referring to a WAR. In war, people fight and kill. Since we know what the rules of war are in Islam, the fighting will be done against Jews who harm Muslims.
Here are some other ahadith showing that normal relations with Jews are encouraged in Islam:
Narrated `Aisha: The Prophet (ﷺ) purchased food grains from a Jew on credit and mortgaged his iron armor to him.
Jabir said: “The Prophet and his Companions stood up for the funeral of a Jew until it disappeared.”
Narrated Usamah bin Zaid: That the Prophet (ﷺ) passed by a gathering in which the Muslims and the Jews were mixed, so he gave the Salam to them.
Mujahid reported: I was with Abdullah ibn Amr while his servant was skinning a sheep. He said: O boy, when you finish up, then start with the Jewish neighbor. A man there exclaimed: May Allah correct you! He replied: I heard the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, recommending that we treat our neighbors well until we thought that he would order us to make them our heirs.
So there you go. You are an uneducated loser with no real knowledge about Islam.
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It does not say it was only for a specific group of Jews; and it does not say for a specific battle or war, etc.; it says the Jews until the day of resurrection. That means for all time. The Hadiths have to be understood if they took place before Medina or after the battle of the trench and after Surah 9 was revealed.
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“a synagogue of Satan” (Revelation 2:9) does not mean “all” Jews or “all synagogues” (some had become Christian churches of ethnic Jews as believers in the Messiah Jesus); only those that reject the Messiah, which is what Jesus said in John 8:43-47- about the Pharisees – He was talking about their faith, not their ethnicity.
He is referring to those that claim to be true Jews; but the true Jews, are the Jewish believers in the Messiah.
He describes evil deeds that they do in other churches – verses 13; 14; 20
it is not about ethnicity, since Revelation chapter 7 speaks of those ethnic Jews who are saved out of each of the twelve tribes(Revelation 7:4-10), and John himself is a Jew, and mentions the 12 tribes of Israel in heaven. (Revelation 21:12-14 shows the combination of Jews and Gentile nations that are purchased by the blood of Lamb (Revelation 5:5-10) by showing “the 12 tribes of Israel” and “the 12 apostles of the Lamb” – shows the Church is made up of both Jews and Gentiles. God’s Love for all the nations.
“For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.” Romans 2:28-29
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LOL, so you admit that Jews who claim to be “true Jews” are actually evil if they don’t believe in Jesus! Hmmm, let me see. Who would fall into that category? Oh yeah…JEWS! Ding, ding, ding!
And what happens to these Jews (the disbelieving ones) in the Bible, specifically in the book of Revelation? Refresh my memory! 😉
Also, speaking of the book of Revelation, I just remembered that you never answered me when I brought up the “woman clothed with the sun” a few months back. I pointed out how this myth resembles the myth of Apollo. The following is from my blog article on the book of Revelation:
“…many scholars point to the similarities between the imagery of Revelation 12 and the myth of the birth of the pagan god Apollo. As Professor Pheme Perkins of Boston College explains:
“The ‘woman clothed with the sun’ would easily remind the audience of the Roman use of the story of the sun god, Apollo. […] The Apollo myth said that Python was seeking to kill Leto, who was pregnant with Apollo, Zeus’ son. Zeus has the north wind rescue Leto by carrying her off to an island. Poseidon, the sea god, then contributes to rescuing the woman by covering the island with waves.”[95]
Similarly, John Pippy sees parallels between Revelation 12 and the “woman clothed with the sun” and Egyptian mythology regarding the goddess Nut. He states:
“Nut plays an important role, not only in events surrounding the daily birth of the sun-god at sunrise, but also in the sun-god’s struggle against evil forces which strive to destroy him before he can complete his reign in the daytime sky…”[96]”
http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2015/05/the-book-of-revelation.html
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All people are evil sinners until Christ changes them. Jesus said “if you being evil, . . .” Matthew 7:11
Jesus and the NT says that all unbelievers are controlled by Satan – He said to the Pharisees in John 8:44 and Ephesians 2:1-3 says the same thing. We all are until we repent and trust Christ. All humans are sinful and the powers of darkness are working in us, until we are born again. Jesus even accused Peter of letting Satan work on him when he was not thinking correctly – Matthew 16:22-23
Those other views of Revelations are just theories and similarities do not establish a necessary connection. Muhammad is similar to Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormons. (an angel comes and gives him a private revelation; has many wives; starts a new religion)
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Ken’s fallacy:
‘Those other views of Revelations are just theories and similarities do not establish a necessary connection. Muhammad is similar to Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormons. (an angel comes and gives him a private revelation; has many wives; starts a new religion)’
Because one can also say:
Muhammad is similar to Moses, the founder of Judaism, (an angel comes and gives him a private revelation; has many wives; starts a new religion) – see Galatians 3:19
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Moses had one wife at a time. Zipporah died, and then he married the Cushite woman.
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The video reminded me of a historical detail about Hitler’s support for a new kind of Christianity:
Mein Kamp or My Struggle,Hitler’s autobiography, was the most important Nazi book but probably second place is
“The Myth of the 20th Century” by atheist and Nazi Alfred Rosenberg,
where he proposed a new Christianity called Positive Christianity,where
Jesus was Not Jewish,but an Aryan,Germanic.
Later Rosenberg was in the 1947 Nuremberg Trial and condemned to be hung.
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LOL! No Ken, I haven’t been watching “heretical Christian TV”. I just read the Bible.
How convenient that you want us to believe that all the talk of performing miracles is not to be taken literally. It seems to me that the early Christians did take them literally. Why else do we read reports in the book of Acts about the apostles surviving snake bites and speaking in tongues? Can you do any of those things? I am only asking you if you can do it even once. Let me know how that works out. 😉 Here is a checklist. See if you meet any of these criteria:
Super Powers- Matt 10:1 And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every infirmity.
And Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Can Handle Snakes And Drink Poison – Mark 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.
Can Walk Over Scorpions- Luke 10:19 Behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy; and nothing shall hurt you.
Must not Fornicate- 1st Corinthians 7:1-40 (Editors note: This is very long so I leave it to the reader to check it out!)
Must Hate Their Family- Luke 14:26 If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.
Does Their Family Hate Them?- Matt 10:21-22 Brother will deliver up brother to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death; and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.
Are Perfect- Matt 5:48 You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Keep Women Silent- 1st Timothy 2:11-12 Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent.
Can Bend The Will Of God- Matt 18:19 Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.
Can Move Mountains- Matt 17:20 He said to them, “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move hence to yonder place,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.”
Can Wither Figs- Matt 21:19-22 And seeing a fig tree by the wayside he went to it, and found nothing on it but leaves only. And he said to it, “May no fruit ever come from you again!” And the fig tree withered at once. When the disciples saw it they marvelled, saying “How did the fig tree wither at once?” And Jesus answered them, “Truly, I say to you, if you have faith and never doubt, you will not only do what has been done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ it will be done. And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.”
Taken from: http://atheistfoundation.org.au/article/how-to-spot-a-true-christian/
Since you claim to be a “true believer”, you should be able to do everything the apostles could do. If you cannot, then you should think twice about your “I am holier than thou” argument and stop judging others. Additionally, you should come to terms with the fact that you are full of crap, not the holy spirit. 🙂
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Faiz,
I guess you don’t know much about the difference between the miraculous sign gifts (healing, tongues, interpretation of tongues, revelation, prophesy) given to the apostles for the apostolic age and the ceasing of those gifts in history after the apostles died and the NT was finished.
You don’t seem to know the difference between Charismatics, Pentecostals, and other Protestant’s views of the miraculous sign gifts.
You are getting your info from a list of strung together verses taken out of context by atheists. Not credible.
You should read and study the Bible in context verse by verse, chapter by chapter first, instead of finding web-sites that take the verses out of context.
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Concerning Hitler,the creator of the Final Solution that killed 6 million(others,like Jewish historian Raoul Hilberg,say it was 5.1 million) Jews,
it would not have happened had the churches really read the NT.
There is a passage,by St Paul himself,that says the Jews are still God’s Chosen People.
It is true the NT says Mosaic Law is over,but the Jews have never rejected it,so for that reason,I think,Paul says his Jewish people are still the Chosen People,God has not rejected them.
Some say that when Paul says Israelite,he doesn’t mean a Jew by blood,but a “spiritual Israelite”,a Christian,but the context of Romans 11 shows it is false in this case:
Romans 11:1-26
“I ask, then, has God rejected His people?
Absolutely not!
For I(Paul) too am an Israelite,
a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.
God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.
Or don’t you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he pleads with God against Israel(the Jews)?
“Lord, they have killed Your prophets
and torn down Your altars.
I am the only one left,
and they are trying to take my life!”………………………..I ask, then, have they stumbled in order to fall?
Absolutely not! On the contrary, by their stumbling,
salvation has come to the Gentiles
to make Israel(the Jews) jealous.………………………
Now I(Paul) am speaking to you Gentiles. In view of the fact that I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
if I can somehow make my own people(the Jews) jealous and save some of them.
For if their rejection(rejection of Jesus) brings reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? ……………………..So that you will not be conceited, brothers, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery: A partial hardening has come to Israel
until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
And in this way all Israel(all the Jews) will be saved“
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Ken said:
“It does not say it was only for a specific group of Jews; and it does not say for a specific battle or war, etc.; it says the Jews until the day of resurrection. That means for all time. The Hadiths have to be understood if they took place before Medina or after the battle of the trench and after Surah 9 was revealed.”
LOL, you must not know how to read. The hadith states that the Day of Judgement will not come UNTIL the Muslims fight against the Jews. In other words, this war will be one of the major signs of the Day of Judgment.
We know that the hadith did not mean that Muslims were to perpetually fight Jews until the Day of Judgement because Muslims still carried on normal relations with Jews, from the time of the Prophet, through the reigns of his successors and beyond. In fact, we have proof from the ahadith that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) carried on business relations with Jews up to the time of his death:
” Narrated `Aisha: Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) died while his (iron) armor was mortgaged to a Jew for thirty Sas of barley.”
Imagine that! If Muslims were supposed to be fighting the Jews, then why did Muhammad (pbuh) mortgage his ARMOR to a Jew for some barley?
Use your head for once. Break free of your Christian bias. It’s affecting your critical thinking. 🙂
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Ken said:
“All people are evil sinners until Christ changes them. Jesus said “if you being evil, . . .” Matthew 7:11
Jesus and the NT says that all unbelievers are controlled by Satan – He said to the Pharisees in John 8:44 and Ephesians 2:1-3 says the same thing. We all are until we repent and trust Christ. All humans are sinful and the powers of darkness are working in us, until we are born again. Jesus even accused Peter of letting Satan work on him when he was not thinking correctly – Matthew 16:22-23
Those other views of Revelations are just theories and similarities do not establish a necessary connection. Muhammad is similar to Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormons. (an angel comes and gives him a private revelation; has many wives; starts a new religion)”
LOL, always deflecting aren’t you?
First of all, you didn’t answer my question. What happens to the unbelieving Jews in Revelation? In fact, what happens to all unbelievers in Revelation?
Second, the similarities are not “theories”. They are well-known historical facts. The fact is that the myth of Apollo’s birth would have been well known to Romans, so to use that imagery would have made sense for the author of Revelation. The book was written for that time. It frequently utilizes the beliefs of the time. For example, it is beyond doubt that the “beast” was Nero. There was a belief that Nero would come back and conquer Rome after his death. It was known as “Nero redivivus”. This myth is clearly referred to in Revelation, as I discussed in my article:
“There can be little doubt that the “wounded” head refers to Nero, who was known to have committed suicide by stabbing himself in the neck. Also, the miraculous healing which the head of the beast had undergone has clear links to a Roman myth regarding the reappearance of Nero, known as “Nero redivivus” (“resurrected”).[116] As Louden explains:
“For a number of reasons, there was strong popular belief that Nero would return from the dead.”[117]
In addition, he states:
“Popular belief, supported by the three stories of the Returned Neros, contributed to the expectation that he would come back.”[118]
Another aspect of the myth was that Nero would return with an army from the east, originating from Parthia.[119] In fact, two of the “Returned Neros” (i.e. impostors who had claimed to be the revivified Nero) had actually managed to win the support of Parthian rulers. As Professor Ben Witherington of the Asbury Theological Seminary explains:
“…Terentius Maximus, who was the impostor in A.D. 80, actually managed to win the support of a pretender to the Parthian throne. But…the most important of these impostors is the one who arose during the reign of Domitian in about A.D. 88-99 (Suetonius, Nero 57.2) and appears to have won the support of the Parthian king Pacorus II.”[120]
So, the myth of a revivified Nero coming to conquer Rome with Parthian support was commonly believed around the time Revelation was written. Thus, it is not surprising that Revelation contains a clear “prophecy” of armies from the east coming to fight for the beast:
“The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East.”[121]
Commenting on this verse, Mounce states:
“…the historical context of John’s imagery favors the interpretation of the kings as Parthian rulers.”[122]
In fact, the myth of Nero leading an army from Parthia was widely known even to non-Romans and invariably found its way into Jewish and Christian circles as well. Scholars have long known that the myth of “Nero redivivus” is found in apocryphal works like the Sibylline Oracles and the Ascension of Isaiah.[123] As for the former, Mounce explains that (emphasis in the original):
“The tradition that Nero, although dying by his own hand, would return from the East leading a great army of Parthian warriors is preserved in the Sibylline Oracles (4:115-39).”[124]
Even if apologists could somehow prove that a Parthian army led by Nero was not what the author of Revelation had in mind, but rather some Russian or Middle Eastern (Islamic) army in modern times, they must still ask themselves some logical questions: what modern army would need the Euphrates River to dry up first before it could advance on the Holy Land? What modern army, using technology like helicopters and airplanes, would be held back because of a river, as the Book of Revelation claims? The fact is that when the Book of Revelation was written, the Euphrates River served to separate the Roman Empire from the Parthian Empire. It was a natural barrier which served to keep Rome safe from a Parthian invasion.[125] Hence, given that the first two clues provide strong evidence of the Nero myth in Revelation, there is little doubt that the author of Revelation had Nero in mind.”
http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2015/05/the-book-of-revelation.html
Regarding the specific myth about Apollo, I stated:
“The story in Revelation 12 is remarkably similar. The woman gives birth to the Messiah, and is pursued by the dragon. The child is saved by divine intervention and the woman finds safe haven in the wilderness and is protected by miraculous occurrences (i.e. the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the water released by the dragon).”
So, regardless of your pathetic apologetic defense, the similarity of the vision of the “woman clothed with the sun” to the birth of Apollo is real and indisputable. The author was referring to a well-known myth in that time.
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Ken said:
“Faiz,
I guess you don’t know much about the difference between the miraculous sign gifts (healing, tongues, interpretation of tongues, revelation, prophesy) given to the apostles for the apostolic age and the ceasing of those gifts in history after the apostles died and the NT was finished.
You don’t seem to know the difference between Charismatics, Pentecostals, and other Protestant’s views of the miraculous sign gifts.
You are getting your info from a list of strung together verses taken out of context by atheists. Not credible.
You should read and study the Bible in context verse by verse, chapter by chapter first, instead of finding web-sites that take the verses out of context.”
LOL, I only used the atheist website because I didn’t have time to quote each verse individually. I have read those verses and have found no proof that miracles ended with the “apostolic age”. Even if it could be proven from the Bible, the only conclusion would be that it is very convenient that all we have as “proof” that Christians could perform wondrous deeds are hearsay accounts from 2,000 years ago.
But, the fact is that there is nothing in the Bible to support the “cessationist” views. Your “church fathers” evidently were not aware that miracles were supposed to have stopped with the end of the “apostolic age”. As the website “Catholic Answers” states:
“To discredit the countless miracles that had been given in confirmation of the Catholic faith, the original Protestant Reformers utterly rejected the idea that miracles had continued beyond the apostolic age.
However, when the Pentecostal movement began in Protestantism in 1900, with its emphasis on miraculous healing and other charisms, the Pentecostals had to find ways to try to explain why such miracles had “vanished” for so long. The answer is that they never did, as the following quotes of the early Church Fathers show. Miracles have always been found in the Catholic Church, and the idea that they stopped with the death of the last apostle would have been foreign to the early Church Fathers.”
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/do-miracles-still-occur
Here are some quotes from the “church fathers”:
“The Martyrdom of Polycarp
“When he [Polycarp] had . . . finished his prayer, those who were appointed for the purpose kindled the fire [to burn him to death]. And as the flame blazed forth in great fury, we to whom it was given to witness it beheld a great miracle and have been preserved that we might report to others what then took place. For the fire, shaping itself into the form of an arch, like the sail of a ship when filled with the wind, encompassed as by a circle the body of the martyr. And he appeared within, not like flesh which is burnt, but as bread that is baked, or as gold and silver glowing in a furnace. Moreover, we perceived such a sweet odor, as if frankincense or some such precious spices had been smoking there. At length, when those wicked men perceived that his body could not be consumed by the fire, they commanded an executioner to go near and pierce him through with a dagger. And on his doing this, there came forth a dove and a great quantity of blood, so that the fire was extinguished, and all the people wondered that there should be such a difference between the unbelievers and the elect” (Martyrdom of Polycarp 15–16 [A.D. 155]).
Irenaeus
“[Heretics are] so far . . . from being able to raise the dead, as the Lord raised them and the apostles did by means of prayer, and as has been frequently done in the [Catholic] brotherhood on account of some necessity. The entire church in that particular locality entreating with much fasting and prayer, the spirit of the dead man has returned, and he has been bestowed in answer to the prayers of the saints” (Against Heresies 2:31:2–4 [A.D. 189]).
Tertullian
“[When a scorpion stings someone’s heel] we have faith for a defense, if we are not smitten with distrust itself also, in immediately making the sign [of the cross] and adjuring and besmearing the heel with the beast. Finally, we often aid in this way even the heathen, seeing we have been endowed by God with that power which the apostle [Paul] first used when he despised the viper’s bite [Acts 28:3-5]” (Antidote Against the Scorpion 1 [A.D. 211]).
Eusebius of Caesarea
“The citizens of that parish [in Alexandria] mention many other miracles of Narcissus . . . among which they relate the following wonder as performed by him. . . . [T]he oil once failed while the deacons were watching through the night at the great Paschal Vigil. Thereupon, the whole multitude being dismayed, Narcissus directed those who attended to the lights to draw water and bring it to him. This being immediately done he prayed over the water and with firm faith in the Lord commanded them to pour it into the lamps. And when they had done so, contrary to all expectation, by a wonderful and divine power the nature of the water was changed into that of oil. A small portion of it has been preserved even to our day by many of the brethren there as a memento of the wonder” (Church History 6:9:1–3 [A.D. 312]).
Athanasius
“So take these as an example, beloved Dracontius, and do not say, or believe those who say, that the bishop’s office is an occasion to sin. . . . For we know both bishops who fast and monks who eat. We know bishops who drink no wine as well as monks who do. We know bishops who work miracles as well as monks who do not” (Letters 49:9 [A.D. 354]). ”
The website lists others as well.
Moreover, your Bible shows that miracles were NOT given ONLY to the apostles. As one “Continuationist” website states:
“…numerous non-apostolic men and women, young and old, across the breadth of the Roman Empire consistently exercised these gifts of the Spirit (and Stephen and Philip ministered in the power of signs and wonders). Others aside from the apostles who exercised miraculous gifts include (1) the 70 who were commissioned in Luke 10:9, 19-20; (2) at least 108 people among the 120 who were gathered in the upper room on the day of Pentecost; (3) Stephen (Acts 6-7); (4) Philip (Acts 8); (5) Ananias (Acts 9); (6) church members in Antioch (Acts 13); (7) anonymous converts in Ephesus (Acts 19:6); (8) women at Caesarea (Acts 21:8-9); (9) the unnamed brethren of Galatians 3:5; (10) believers in Rome (Rom. 12:6-8); (11) believers in Corinth (1 Cor. 12-14); and (12) Christians in Thessalonica (1 Thess. 5:19-20).”
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/why-i-am-a-continuationist
So, since it is established that non-apostles were also able to perform miracles, the question is why you can’t perform any miracles, even though you claim to be “full of the holy spirit”? Like I said before, you are certainly full of something, but it’s not the holy spirit! 😉
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So Ken, do you still believe you have the holy spirit?
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Sam Storms is indeed probably the best advocate for the continualist position of spiritual miraculous gifts.
I am actually glad you found that article. Keep researching and seeking.
The non-continualist / cessationist position does not say no miracles happen any more or that God does not sometimes answer prayer with a miracle; the cessationist position is that people don’t have those special gifts in the same way with the same quality that the apostles had, along with the examples of Stephen and Philip that Storms cited. (ability to seemingly perform them at will as in the book of Acts and 1 Corinthians chapter 12)
Almost no examples exist of speaking in other tongues/ languages (without the efforts of actually learning a real language in/from another culture) after the apostolic age. Acts 2 is examples of real languages.
Yes, I have the Holy Spirit. (see John 7:37-39) One can have the Holy Spirit without having the sign- miracle gifts of tongues, prophesy, healing, miracles, etc.
The Evidence of the Holy Spirit is character change, behavior, qualities of ethics – see Galatians 5:22-23.
Miraculous Spiritual gifts are a different issue than the fruit of the Spirit.
There are also spiritual gifts that are not miraculous – like the gifts of encouragement, mercy, teaching, leading, organizing, giving, hospitality – see Romans 12:3-10; I Peter 4:11-12; I Cor. 12.
Those spiritual gifts have not ceased.
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You’ve made a very poor case for having the holy spirit. Character change, behavior etc. can occur in any individual. People have converted to Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism and demonstrated a “character change” as well. All of the traits you have mentioned can be found in people of other religions, and even in people with no religion. So what’s your point?
You have no proof that you have the holy spirit, only your own delusions. Therefore, your “holier than thou” judgements on other people, whether they are “heretical” Christians or non-Christians, is nothing more than you blowing hot air and pretending to be better than someone else based on your own high view of yourself.
It is very convenient that you cannot prove that you are some sort of special person, “full of the holy spirit”, as you would say. It seems that the holy spirit likes to hide, rather than showing itself as it allegedly did with the apostles. The holy spirit obviously has not been able to live up to the hype. It seems like a classic scam.
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22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Galatians 5:22-23
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These are just words. They don’t prove anything. People from all walks of life can exhibit love, joy, peace, etc. Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Atheists and Christians. Do they all have the holy spirit?
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Ken do you think that evangelical Christian apologists like David Wood and Sam show the fruit of the Spirit?
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Ken Temple
You said;
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Galatians 5:22-23
I say;
Some idol worshipers have spirit in them and they love, have joy, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against things there is no law.
Some Sikh’s have all these qualities and people of other faith have all these qualities as brother Faiz said. So that qualities is not exclusive to Christians alone and to use it as a proof of having Holy Spirit in you is a lie and desperation because you have no answer and have been cornered by Faiz and you have no escape route.
Prove you or any Christian with Holy Spirit is special than other human beings. You have no proof, so the Holy Spirit in you can be an evil spirit. The evil spirit confuse idol worshipers, Christians etc. to be excited and think they are closer to God. That is not true but evil spirit in all of them.
The only way to know if the excitement and spirit in you is Holy is when you believed this
2.”there is no one like Yahweh our God.” Exodus 8:10
3.”Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35
4.”Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
5.”See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
1.”Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
6.”You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22
7.”For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?” 2 Samuel 22:32
8.”Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
The God of Abraham is 1, only and alone.
and do not add anything like 3, 4, 2 ………….persons like Mormons and idol worshipers.
Ken Temple, my dear Ken there is no 2,3,4,5……………….Persons/persons in the original scripture to the people of Abraham, Moses and Jesus so adding 2,3 or more persons like the Trinity and Mormornism is multi-personal God and the spirit you see or feel is not Holy but evil spirit.
I am not a Christian or Jew but strongly believed the Biblical passages above as they are without adding anything so if I feel anything about God it is Holy like the above passage. Those who add 2,3 or any number of persons above have changed the word of God and can be feeling evil spirit.
Thanks
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Ken Temple
Donald Trump is the most wicked person on earth who hates Muslims, Latinos, blacks, disable people, women etc. and the Evangelical Christians voted for him to beat other republicans. He surely has evil spirit in him and for sure. But Evangelical Christians voted for him and most conservatives supports Donald Trump. Why did the Holy Spirit in them not tell them Donald Trump has an evil spirit in him?
He is not gentle, he does not love and that is what the evangelical Christians wants. Any time the republican candidates insults people of all walk of life especially Muslims, their poll numbers goes high among evangelical Christians. Holy Spirit in Christians is a myth.
Donald Trump told Christian leaders that the only way he can go to heaven is if he is elected the president of the USA. The leaders must have told him that he is not a Christian on that spot because a Christian believes he is saved by the blood of Jesus Christ and will go to heaven.
Donald Trump, prepare you pillow case for hell because you are not going to win the USA presidency at all. You hate monger because you know that is what the Evangelical Christians wants-to hate other people.
Thanks.
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Ken Temple
We have Jason here who is a Christian and believe the above. He does not believe in 2,3 or more persons added to God who is 1. He Jason believed that God is one and possesses all His attributes and no PERSON including Jesus can possess all God’s attributes as madmanna will say.
So, If Jason a Christian or a Jew who believed in the above and did not add any number of persons to it, and experienced anything Godly, I will say it is Holy but Trinitarians and Mormons when they experience something it could be evil spirit because there is no 3 persons 1 God in the whole Bible
Thanks.
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37 Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink.
38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’”
39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
The Gospel of John 7:37-39
18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.
19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know.
21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
25 This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.
26 These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you.
27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.
28 Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming.
29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.
1 John 2:18-29
9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching [doctrine] of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.
2 John, verse 9
“the teaching of Christ” = the doctrine of who Christ is.
Whoever denies the Son (as Islam does) does not have the Father (does not know God the Father at all)
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depends what is mean by ‘son of God’.
In the Jewish Bible it refers to a righteous human being (like David) so there is no problem Islamically. Of course Christians have developed a different take on ‘son of God’ making it synonymous with God, which IS Islamically unacceptable.
The attributes of fatherhood are present in the Names of Allah: provider, protector, carer, sustainer, most loving, compassionate, etc. So the reality is there if not the word.
So your claims fail Ken.
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No;
“there is none righteous, no not even one”
Psalm 14:1-3 (A Psalm of David)
Quoted in Romans 3:9-12
The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds;
There is no one who does good.
2 The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men
To see if there are any who understand,
Who seek after God.
3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, not even one.
When in other places, the OT says Noah was righteous or Job was righteous, those are relative terms – meaning they were believers in God who had God’s grace and sought to be righteous, but they were not totally righteous or sinless.
Psalm 2:1-12 and Proverbs 30:4 clearly show that the Messiah in the future would be “The Son of God”.
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“there is none righteous, no not even one”
and then there is this:
In the days of King Herod of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly order of Abijah. His wife was a descendant of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 Both of them were righteous before God, living blamelessly according to all the commandments and regulations of the Lord.
Luke 1
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“Psalm 2:1-12 and Proverbs 30:4 clearly show that the Messiah in the future would be “The Son of God”.”
Wrong.
Psalm 2 clearly refers to a messiah (David) at the time of writing the psalm not some future person as you vainly suppose.
1 Why do the nations conspire,
and the peoples plot in vain?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers take counsel together,
against the Lord and his anointed, saying,
Proverbs 30:4 does not even mention a Messiah!
‘Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Whose hands have gathered up the wind? Who has wrapped up the waters in a cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is the name of his son? Surely you know!’
So much for Psalm 2:1-12 and Proverbs 30:4 clearly show that the Messiah in the future would be “The Son of God”!
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The Jewish leaders understood Jesus as claiming to be both the Messiah and the Son of God; and their question to Him proves that they understood that the Messiah would also be “the Son of God”. Mark 14:60-64; Matthew 26:63-66
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The Doctrine of the Trinity: There is no Christianity without it
https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/kevindeyoung/2011/09/28/the-doctrine-of-the-trinity-no-christianity-without-it/
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Jesus, the Son of God, in Christian theology, means that the Son was eternal with the Father (eternally generated) and has the same nature/substance/essence as the Father. John 1:1-5; 1:14; John 17:5
I John and 2 John is saying that any one or any other religion or philosophy that denies that, does not have the Father, ie, cannot even get to the true God in true knowledge or worship.
Jesus said,
“I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father (God) except through Me.”
John 14:6
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Why Modalism is Wrong
Modalism is wrong is because it fails to account adequately for the biblical evidence. The Scriptures are clear that God is one (Deut. 6:4) but also affirms that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct persons. In John 1:1-2 the Word (the Son) is said to be “with God.” This statement makes no sense if the Son is merely one mode by which the Father manifests himself. Likewise, passages such as 1 John 2:1, which claims that Jesus is our advocate before the Father, and Heb. 7:25, which claims that Jesus makes intercession for his own, make no sense in terms of the plain use of the language. Similarly the Holy Spirit intercedes for believers (Romans 8:27) and is said to have been sent from the Father (John 14:26) which presupposes that the Father and the holy Spirit are distinct persons. Likewise, the Son has said that he must depart for the Holy Spirit to come (John 16:7), which one supposes could imply that the Son must depart in order to return as the Holy Spirit except that the Son specifically says, “If I go, I will send him unto you” (John 16:7).
Why Modalism is Dangerous
Modalism is dangerous because it does not lead people to the God of the Bible. If we accept the ancient creeds as being accurate summaries of the Bible’s teaching about the person of God (and most Christian groups do; in fact, it is one thing that both Catholic and Protestant are in perfect agreement on), then modalism leads people to worship a god different than the God portrayed in Scripture.
Modalism is also dangerous because it allows people to affirm something that sounds like orthodoxy without being orthodoxy. But that’s like poison in your soup, you can’t just spit the bad part out; you have to pour out the whole bowl and start over. Saying, “I believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (as Phillips, Craig, and Dean, do along with T. D. Jakes) is not the same as affirming God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, Three in One, as orthodox Christians affirm.
Pastor Michael R. Jones
https://michaelrjones.wordpress.com/2012/01/12/what-modalism-is-why-its-wrong-and-why-its-dangerous/
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Ken do you think that evangelical Christian apologists like David Wood and Sam show the fruit of the Spirit?
Yes, because another fruit of the Holy Spirit is boldness in witnessing and proclaiming the Word of God.
Also, James White and Nabeel Qureshi – yes, they demonstrate the fruit of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 4:31
“And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness.”
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2009/04/answering-muslims-website-faq_24.html
I don’t always agree with some of their points or emphasis; and I think sometimes Sam goes overboard when he gets angry and calls Muslims names, etc. – but usually he is responding to something that a Muslim did or called him a name. But I have not seen everything. Sam’s articles are very good in dealing with facts and quotes from the Qur’an, Hadith, Tafsirs, other Sunna sources; and Biblical material and argumentation.
The explanation of Nabeel Qureshi about (Frequently Asked Questions) is very good.
True love is a willingness to tell people the truth, even if it offends or hurts. That is tough love.
David Wood exposes Islamic doctrine and belief and backs up what he is saying with quotes from the Hadith and the Qur’an and other Islamic sources. (Al Tabari’s history; Tafsirs)
But overall, I prefer James White’s approach as the best.
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Zechariah and Elizabeth’s righteousness is like Job and Noah and Abraham – based on grace and faith in the true God and the Messiah to come; but it does not mean that they were totally or completely righteous. It means they were good believers and lived holy and pious and godly lives. But they are waiting for the Messiah, so their righteousness was based on faith in Him who was to come.
“He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”
2 Corinthians 5:21
“And Abram believed in the LORD, and the LORD credited it to him as righteousness.” Genesis 15:6
and in Romans 4:1-16
1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” [Quoted from Genesis 15:6]
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
8 “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.” [ Quoted from Psalm 32]
9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness.”
10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;
11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,
12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.
13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if those who are [n]of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified;
15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.
16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
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“Both of them were righteous before God, living blamelessly according to all the commandments and regulations of the Lord.”
This righteousness, according to Luke, had nothing to do with any messiah. Their righteousness came from blamelessly obeying all the Jewish law.
Paul wrote:
“I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”
Galatians 2:21
Oh dear! Christianity refuted by its own scriptures!
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The rest of Luke chapter 1, especially verses 40-45 and 57-80 show that Zechariah and Elizabeth’s faith was in the Messiah Jesus, and they had some understanding of God’s salvation and preparation for the Messiah through their own son, John the Baptist, known by Muslims as “Yahya” یحیی
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but that is irrelevant. Luke says they were righteous for obeying the law
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To read the rest of the chapter is not irrelevant. You have to interpret verses in their context. You know that. Doing theology is putting it all together; just as you would do in the Qur’an when it seems to have contradictions, you harmonize them both together according to context, historical background, grammar, and when they were written (Mecca period vs. Medina period – etc. )
“walking in the Lord’s commandments” and “obeying the law” is different than, “absolute always obeying the law” and “perfect righteousness”. Only Jesus Al Masih / The Messiah was perfectly righteous totally and absolutely.
Even the text shows that Zacharias doubted and was disciplined for a time for that. Luke 1:18-23 and later, he repented – 1:56-80
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you miss the point. They were declared righteous under the law (who said anything about perfection being required?) and so Paul is correct to draw the logical conclusion: “if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”
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Jesus said “Be ye perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matthew 5:48
No one can be perfect. Jesus uses law and commands to get us to realize we cannot perfectly obey the law and so turn to Him for salvation.
Galatians 3:19-24 – “the law is our tutor/school master who leads us/drives us to give up and come to Christ.
That is why Jesus came and lived and died on the cross for our sins and took our place and gives His perfect righteousness to those who repent and believe in Him.
That was the apostle Paul’s point in Galatians 2:21; which of course, you know all this. You know how Christians harmonize all of the verses into a proper way of a consistent theology, since God is One and has a unified one message. The persons of the Trinity are in full agreement with each other in perfect unity, OT and NT and so we must interpret everything consistently since God cannot lie. Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, David, Jesus, and Paul and the other apostles are in full agreement and harmony with one another in a completely unified message.
Titus 1:2 “God, who cannot lie”.
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No, you miss the point.
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You said;
Jesus said “Be ye perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matthew 5:48
No one can be perfect. Jesus uses law and commands to get us to realize we cannot perfectly obey the law and so turn to Him for salvation.
Galatians 3:19-24 – “the law is our tutor/school master who leads us/drives us to give up and come to Christ.
That is why Jesus came and lived and died on the cross for our sins and took our place and gives His perfect righteousness to those who repent and believe in Him.
I say;
You are the one who said Christians still sin. So what perfection are you talking about? Christ died so that Christians will be perfect. Christ dead and Christians are not perfect. What a lie.
Christ died so that Christians will be perfect according to Ken Temple. Ken Temple is the same person on this blog who keeps saying Christians still do sin-they are not perfect. May be Ken Temple and his Christian lecturers and professors from seminary must find the meaning of PERFECT from the dictionary.
Ken Temple, Jesus Christ died for Christians to be perfect and Christians are still not perfect i.e. Christians still sin,. You lied I am afraid or may be you do not know what PERFECT means.
You are my friend and if I lie say it. You lied Jesus Christ did not die for Christians to be PERFECT.
Thanks.
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Ken wrote:
That is why Jesus came and lived and died on the cross for our sins and took our place and gives His perfect righteousness to those who repent and believe in Him.
“Intellect” wrote:
I say;
You are the one who said Christians still sin. So what perfection are you talking about? Christ died so that Christians will be perfect. Christ dead and Christians are not perfect. What a lie.
I never wrote that; I never wrote that we become perfect (never sin); rather Christ imputes to us or exchanges our sin and guilt for His perfect righteousness by faith. It is a gift to us; to be declared righteous; to be credited as righteous, but still being unrighteousness within ourselves.
“God justifies the ungodly” – Romans 4:5
It was credited to Abraham as righteousness when he believed in the LORD and His promise of a future son.
Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:1-16 (read the whole thing please)
His righteousness is a gift that is given/ imputed / credited to our account and our sins are forgiven.
We still sin, but we grow in holiness and practical righteousness over time, constantly seeking to walk with God and live holy and confessing our sins when we fail.
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