In the beginning of the Gospel of Luke we read:
‘In the days of King Herod of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly order of Abijah. His wife was a descendant of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. Both of them were righteous before God, living blamelessly according to all the commandments and regulations of the Lord. But they had no children, because Elizabeth was barren, and both were getting on in years.’ Luke 1
This righteousness, according to Luke, had nothing to do with any messiah. Their righteousness came from blamelessly obeying all the Jewish law.
However, Paul wrote:
“I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” Galatians 2:21
Oh dear! The whole point of Christianity refuted by its own scriptures!
Categories: Bible, Christianity
Blogging Theology 
Oh dear, how embarrassing.
Luke is giving the perspective of righteousness from human perspective, Galatians reveals that from god’s perspective, bowing your head to some other guy’s butt five times a day, and killing apostates won’t do the trick.
Your own sources hint at this truth – your god demanded 50 prayer times a day, which is impossible considering that the prayers take around 15 minutes to complete and you would have to be in prayer roughly 30 minutes out of every hour. That is just the prayer. Include the cleansing rituals and you’d be praying and washing non-stop.
So yeah, even your own sources suggest that you can’t do enough to meet the standards of purity for god.
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‘Luke is giving the perspective of righteousness from human perspective, Galatians reveals that from god’s perspective.’
Arbitrary and unconvincing. Not exegesis but special pleading.
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No special pleading here, just sloppy reasoning on your part. Only a few verses later Zecharia is reprimanded for his lack of faith and your assertion goes into the toilet where it belongs.
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Luke declares they were righteous. So what was the point of Jesus dying for them then?
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Ah, the textbook example of special pleading.
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so no answer to my question I see
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Paul Williams
“so no answer to my question I see”
I answered your question in my first comment. Didn’t you read it?
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no you did not.
here it is again:
The Bible declares they were righteous.
So what was the point of Jesus dying for them then?
What did they lack?
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“no you did not.”
Yes I did…..Luke is giving the perspective of righteousness from human perspective, Galatians reveals that from god’s perspective, bowing your head to some other guy’s butt five times a day, and killing apostates won’t do the trick.
….and Zechariah is admonished a few verses later for his lack of faith.
Now you.
How can an eternal god with an eternal word be made to change his mind by a mere human being and be convinced to permit only 5 prayers when your god had required 50? Is your profit wiser than god? Since moses persuaded your profit to argue with your god to reduce the number of prayers, is moses wiser than your profit and your god?
If your god requires 50 prayers – practically impossible – and then changes his mind, then he must think that human efforts cannot possibly achieve atonement.
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clearly you are a bit thick. You failed. Oh well.
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Like I wrote in the other thread; you have to read all of Luke chapter 1. See Luke 1:18-23 and 40-45 and 56-80. in fact, all of it; they were looking for the Messiah, and the birth of John the Baptist, their son, confirmed for them he was the forerunner for the Messiah, etc.
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Jesus said “Be ye perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matthew 5:48
No one can be perfect. Jesus uses law and commands to get us to realize we cannot perfectly obey the law and so turn to Him for salvation.
Galatians 3:19-24 – “the law is our tutor/school master who leads us/drives us to give up and come to Christ.
That is why Jesus came and lived and died on the cross for our sins and took our place and gives His perfect righteousness to those who repent and believe in Him.
That was the apostle Paul’s point in Galatians 2:21; which of course, you know all this. You know how Christians harmonize all of the verses into a proper way of a consistent theology, since God is One and has a unified one message. The persons of the Trinity are in full agreement with each other in perfect unity, OT and NT and so we must interpret everything consistently since God cannot lie. Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, David, Jesus, and Paul and the other apostles are in full agreement and harmony with one another in a completely unified message.
Titus 1:2 “God, who cannot lie”.
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Zechariah and Elizabeth’s righteousness is like Job and Noah and Abraham – based on grace and faith in the true God and the Messiah to come; but it does not mean that they were totally or completely righteous. It means they were good believers and lived holy and pious and godly lives. But they are waiting for the Messiah, so their righteousness was based on faith in Him who was to come.
“He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”
2 Corinthians 5:21
“And Abram believed in the LORD, and the LORD credited it to him as righteousness.” Genesis 15:6
and in Romans 4:1-16
1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” [Quoted from Genesis 15:6]
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
8 “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.” [ Quoted from Psalm 32]
9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness.”
10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;
11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,
12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.
13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified;
15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.
16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
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“Jesus uses law and commands to get us to realize we cannot perfectly obey the law and so turn to Him for salvation.”
Wrong.
Jesus taught his disciples to obey the Law: see Matthew 5 and Matt 23:
‘Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 ‘The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; 3 therefore, do whatever they teach you and follow it; but do not do as they do, for they do not practise what they teach.’
Also God taught Israel that it was NOT difficult to obey all the law at all:
‘Surely, this commandment [to obey all the Law] that I am commanding you today is not too hard for you, nor is it too far away. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us, and get it for us so that we may hear it and observe it?’ 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us, and get it for us so that we may hear it and observe it?’ 14 No, the word is very near to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart for you to observe.
15 See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, death and adversity. 16 If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God that I am commanding you today, by loving the Lord your God, walking in his ways, and observing his commandments, decrees, and ordinances, then you shall live and become numerous, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to possess. 17 But if your heart turns away and you do not hear, but are led astray to bow down to other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you shall perish; you shall not live long in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live, 20 loving the Lord your God, obeying him, and holding fast to him; for that means life to you and length of days, so that you may live in the land that the Lord swore to give to your ancestors, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.’
Deuteronomy 30
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Ken Temple
You keep repeating Messiah, Messiah, Messiah and you did not give us proof where they believed the messiah is part of 3 Persons/persons 1 God or God died or the Messiah is God.
As for their faith is in the Messiah, Muslims faith are also in the Messiah too. It does not mean we Muslims and them believed God died, the Messiah is God or God is 3 in 1.
That is what you have to prove but not their faith is in the Messiah. Muslims believed in the Messiah too.
But they are righteous without believing Jesus died for their sins.
Having faith in the Messiah or your faith is in the messiah does not mean you believed the Messiah is God or God is 3 Persons in 1. Jehovah Witness, Arians, Unitarian Christians and Muslims have their faith in the Messiah but they do not believe he is God or 3 Persons/person 1 God.
Thanks.
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Ken Temple
Paul Williams said, the text in the Bible said “they were righteous” and no “Jesus died for their sins”. Do you know the Bible more than those who wrote it? and they did not include any Jesus dying for sins? Were you more inspired than those who were inspired to write the NT and they did not include any Jesus dying for anyone’s sins there?
You keep saying Messiah, Messiah, Messiah, Faith in Messiah. Which did not address the question. Muslims, Rastafarians, Mormons, Unitarian Christians, Jehovah witness etc. all have faith in the Messiah and it does not mean they believed what you believe.
Having faith in the Messiah does not answer the question that, these people were righteous without Jesus dying for their sins. There were so many righteous people before Jesus died.
So us where in the Bible does it say those righteous people before Jesus Christ has to wait for him(Christ) to die before they are righteous. Come on show us.
They are righteous anyway, without Jesus death.
I want the truth, but Christianity especially Trinitarianism has a lot of untruth in it.
Thanks.
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correction
Show us where in the Bible does it say those righteous people before Jesus Christ have to wait for him(Christ) to die before they are righteous. Come on show us.
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Texts all from Luke-Acts proving that a person is not blameless by keeping the Law but but the grace of the Lord Jesus through repentance and faith.
“Then his father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke this prophecy: ‘Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, for he has looked favorably on his people and redeemed them. He has raised up A MIGHTY SAVIOR for us in the house of his servant David, as he spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets from of old, that we would be saved from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us. Thus he has shown the mercy promised to our ancestors, and has remembered his holy covenant, the oath that he swore to our ancestor Abraham, to grant us that we, being rescued from the hands of our enemies, might serve him without fear, in holiness and righteousness before him all our days. And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Most High; for you will go before the Lord to prepare his ways, to give knowledge of salvation to his people by the forgiveness of their sins. By the tender mercy of our God, the dawn from on high will break upon us, to give light to those who sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.’ The child grew and became strong in spirit, and he was in the wilderness until the day he appeared publicly to Israel.” Luke 1:67-80 (Zacharias spoke this)
“Then an angel of the Lord stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified. But the angel said to them, ‘Do not be afraid; for see—I am bringing you good news of great joy for all the people: to you is born this day in the city of David A SAVIOR, who is the Messiah, the Lord.” Luke 2:9-11
“God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and SAVIOR that he might give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.” Acts 5:31
“When he had removed him, he made David their king. In his testimony about him he said, ‘I have found David, son of Jesse, to be a man after my heart, who will carry out all my wishes.’ Of this man’s posterity God has brought to Israel A SAVIOR, Jesus, as he promised…
Let it be known to you therefore, my brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you; by this Jesus everyone who believes is set free from all those sins from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.” Acts 13:22-23, 38-39
“Then Jesus said to him, ‘Today salvation has come to this house, because he too is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man came to seek out and TO SAVE the lost.’” Luke 19:9-10
“After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, ‘My brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that I should be the one through whom the Gentiles would hear the message of the good news and become believers.
And God, who knows the human heart, testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he did to us; and in cleansing their hearts by faith he has made no distinction between them and us. Now therefore why are you putting God to the test by placing on the neck of the disciples a yoke that neither our ancestors nor we have been able to bear? On the contrary, we believe that we will be SAVED through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.’” Acts 15:7-11 (context: The false teachers of Judaizers said that repentance and faith in Christ was not enough, that the Gentiles had to also obey the law of Moses, get circumcised, obey food laws, etc. – see Acts 15:1-6 and whole book of Galatians)
“Then he brought them outside and said, ‘Sirs, what must I do to be SAVED?’ They answered, ‘Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be SAVED, you and your household.’” Acts 16:30-31
“Then he said to them, ‘These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you—that everything written about me in the law of Moses, the prophets, and the psalms must be fulfilled.’ Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures, and he said to them, ‘Thus it is written, that the Messiah is to suffer and to rise from the dead on the third day, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins is to be proclaimed IN HIS NAME to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.’” Luke 24:44-47
“All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” Acts 10:43
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Ken claims:
‘Texts all from Luke-Acts proving that a person is not blameless by keeping the Law but but the grace of the Lord Jesus through repentance and faith.’
The Bible states:
‘Both of them were righteous before God, living blamelessly according to all the commandments and regulations of the Lord.’ Luke 1
This righteousness, according to Luke, had nothing to do with any messiah. Their righteousness came from blamelessly obeying all the Jewish law.
This contradicts Paul who wrote:
“I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” Galatians 2:21
Clearly Paul was wrong. Righteousness could be gained through the law!
God makes it very clear in Deuteronomy 30: it is not difficult to obey the law.
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Paul, you still don’t seem to know how to keep reading in Luke chapter 1, and then the whole book, and Acts also – you would understand Luke as the author and his intention if you would just read his whole books, for he has a purpose for writing the whole books of Luke and Acts also. Luke and Paul are both in agreement with one another, since Luke’s beginning leads to further information and the whole Gospel which leads to the cross and resurrection, and repentance and faith in Christ, which is the main issues in all the 4 canonical Gospels.
Was Zacharaias’ lack of faith in Luke 1:19-20 a good thing? Was he obeying God there?
19 The angel answered and said to him, “I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to bring you this good news. 20 And behold, you shall be silent and unable to speak until the day when these things take place, because you did not believe my words, which will be fulfilled in their proper time.”
You have mis-used Deuteronomy 30:11 for years, thinking that it means that humans can obey God and that God’s law is easy to obey. The text does not say that. In context, it means it is not difficult to find and know what it says, so that God holds them accountable.
Deuteronomy 30:12-14 – “don’t say it is out of reach or hidden or beyond the sea or in heaven” – don’t say it is mysterious and hidden and we don’t know what it says. verse 14 – the word is near you (you are able to hear it read by Moses or other leaders and know what it says) and in your mouth and in your heart (if you read, meditate, and memorize it).
What did God do to the Israelites when they did not believe Him in Numbers chapters 13-14? (see Numbers 14:11 and 11:22-24)
God punished/disciplined them for their unbelief, just as He disciplined Zacharias for his lack of faith in Luke 1:19-20.
Therefore, Luke 1:6 is not talking about earning salvation by perfect obedience to the law; it is talking about them as true believers, who had godly and pious lives, like Noah, Abraham, Job in the OT.
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‘You have mis-used Deuteronomy 30:11 for years, thinking that it means that humans can obey God and that God’s law is easy to obey. The text does not say that.’
Oh yes it does!
You run away from the plain meaning – as you always do:
“This command I am giving you today is not too difficult for you to understand, and it is not beyond your reach. 12It is not kept in heaven, so distant that you must ask, ‘Who will go up to heaven and bring it down so we can hear it and obey?’ 13It is not kept beyond the sea, so far away that you must ask, ‘Who will cross the sea to bring it to us so we can hear it and obey?’ 14No, the message is very close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart so that you can obey it.”
“So that you may obey it”. It is mean to be obeyed. God is not playing silly games with his people. And so it is not too difficult to obey. Jesus agreed. He told a man to obey it and by that means attain to Life ie salvation.
Matt 19:
Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
18 “Which ones?” he inquired.
Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’[c] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’[d]”
20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
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The NRSV translates Deuteronomy 30:11 thus
‘Surely, this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too hard for you, nor is it too far away. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us, and get it for us so that we may hear it and observe it?’ 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us, and get it for us so that we may hear it and observe it?’ 14 No, the word is very near to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart for you to observe.’
So God is encouraging his people to “observe” and obey the law. It is “not too hard for you” he says.
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Show us where in the Bible does it say those righteous people before Jesus Christ have to wait for him(Christ) to die before they are righteous. Come on show us.
Genesis 15:1-6
The Lord said to Abraham:
. . .
“one from your own body will be the heir” (the Messiah) . . .
And Abram believed in the LORD (and His promise of the one to come) and it was credited to Him as righteousness.” (verse 6, includes the promise in verses 1-5)
John 8:56-58
Jesus said this, referring back to Abraham in Genesis 15:1-6:
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
Isaiah 53
1 Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.
3 He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
9 His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10 But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.
11 As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.
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Ken Temple
It did not say Abraham has to wait for Jesus to die for his sins before he is righteous. It was credited to Abraham as righteous. It did not say Abraham had to wait for Jesus to die for his sins before he is righteous.
Every prophet and not only Abraham believed in the future prophet to come and that does not mean Jesus died for anyone’s sins.
I say Muslims, Jews, Unitarian Christians, Rastafarians, Jehovah witness etc. all believe in the one to come and it does not say Jesus is God, God died for anyone’s sins or God is 3 persons 1 God or any righteous person must wait for Jesus to die before he is righteous.
Mr. Ken, you a highly intelligent and educated person and you know very well you did not provide any answer to me.
Believing someone or some prophet will come does not mean Abraham must wait for Jesus to die before he is righteous. Abraham is already righteous. Believing Jesus or any prophet will come does not mean he has to wait for Jesus to die before he is righteous.
Thanks.
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If righteousness cannot be attained through the law, why was the law revealed in the first place?
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Excellent question Kmak!
In order to show us God’s standard of right and wrong, and then to frustrate us to make us realize that we cannot be perfectly righteous or holy – we keep sinning, even in thought and motives in the heart / minds. (deeper sins like pride, lusts, selfishness, greed, jealousies, anger, bitterness, self-pity, lack of love for God and lack of reverence and holy fear of Him.)
“the law is our tudor / school master that drives us to trust in Christ, after we try and try and try to obey the law and keep failing and realize that we cannot.” (The basic meaning of Galatians 3:19-24 and Romans chapter 7) But He can, and He gained that righteousness for us on the cross in taking our sins and guilt and those that repent, give up thinking they are righteous and good and realize they are weak and bad and turn to Him who exchanges His righteousness to us, if we trust Him by faith; and He takes our sinfulness. Then, in sending the Holy Spirit, He lives inside believers.
Even Paul Williams, a while back, admitted he could not do the Islamic rituals and disciplines and left Islam for a few days. That was not “easy” as he claims in Deut. 30. (if you apply Islamic laws and rules to Deut. 30)
Is doing all rituals 5 times every day easy for you?
What about evil thoughts that come into your mind when you are reciting Arabic phrases in Salaat and bowing and going through the motions?
Do you do them perfectly every time, or do you have to do them over if you burp, or pass wind (talks about this in the Hadith, that you have to start over), or have a bad thought, or get distracted) ?
The Bible is much deeper than rituals and washings and set times of prayer, like Wudu and Salaat, etc.
Mark 7:20-23
20 And He (Jesus) was saying, “That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries,
22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness.
23 All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”
“The heart of man is desperately wicked and sick and deceitful, above all else; who can know it?” I the LORD, test the heart and mind . . . ” Jeremiah 17:9-10
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Jesus was a Muslim prophet so this teaching is Islamic too.
What does God say?
‘Surely, this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too hard for you, nor is it too far away. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us, and get it for us so that we may hear it and observe it?’ 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us, and get it for us so that we may hear it and observe it?’ 14 No, the word is very near to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart for you to observe.’
So God tells us His Law is not too hard to obey.
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Temple: In order to show us God’s standard of right and wrong, and then to frustrate us to make us realize that we cannot be perfectly righteous or holy
You realize your explanation makes God look like a d’ick? He imposed hard, useless laws on men just to frustrate them. Only a di’ck would do that.
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Very true. God who plays games with people and deceives them
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It did not say Abraham had to wait for Jesus to die for his sins before he is righteous.
Abraham’s faith was in the LORD who promised to give him a child from his own body. (see context of Genesis 15:1-6) That line of the promise was what the Jews called the promise of the Messiah to come in the future.
Obviously, since Jesus dying on the cross was future. But combined with John 8:56-58 and Isaiah 53 – it shows that Abraham was trusting in the Messiah to come, who was prophesied to come from his own body. (Genesis 15:1-6 – the line of Isaac down to the Messiah, which is what Matthew’s and Luke’s geneaologies are all about – Matthew 1 (Joseph’s line) and Luke 3 (from Nathan to Mary, since Joseph was not the literal father of Jesus).
Isaiah 53 is the prophesy of the Suffering Servant to come, and with Daniel 9:24-27, shows the work of the future Messiah – who will make atonement for sin and finish transgression, etc.
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‘Obviously, since Jesus dying on the cross was future. But combined with John 8:56-58 and Isaiah 53 – it shows that Abraham was trusting in the Messiah to come, who was prophesied to come from his own body.’
Not obvious to anyone unless you come to the passage with evangelical spectacles. Historically it is dishonest and just laughable for you to suggest that Abraham knew anything about a ‘messiah’ – a much later Jewish notion. But real history does not matter to Ken.
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And yet what is more laughable is that your Quran claims that Moses and the prophets like Jesus knew of an Arab an illiterate profit to come, with Jesus even naming him Ahmad! Q. 7:157; 61:6
Now that is a comedy smash hit!
Since Jesus spoke Aramaic could you be so kind and tell us what the Aramaic form or equivalent of Ahmad is?
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And yet what is more laughable is that your Quran claims that Moses and the prophets like Jesus knew of an illiterate Arab profit to come, with Jesus even naming him Ahmad! Q. 7:157; 61:6
Now that is a comedy smash hit!
Since Jesus spoke Aramaic could you be so kind and tell us what the Aramaic form or equivalent of Ahmad is?
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So God tells us His Law is not too hard to obey.
the text does not say that; it says it is not too difficult to find out, hear it read, or read it, and think about it and memorize it and talk about it, and know what it says.
why do you ignore the whole emphasis of this? “don’t say it is in heaven and we cannot go up and get it and don’t say it is beyond the sea, so we don’t know what is says, etc.” Don’t you see that?
Why did Noah get drunk in Genesis 9 after God destroyed the other sinnners?
Why did Israel not have faith in God in Numbers 13-14?
Why did Zacharias doubt in Luke 1:19-20?
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Williams, I thought we already went thru this. I corrected your highly selective citations from Deuteronomy by showing you what Yahweh goes on to say IN THE VERY NEXT CHAPTER!
The Lord said to Moses, “Your time to die is near; call Joshua and present yourselves in the tent of meeting, so that I may commission him.” So Moses and Joshua went and presented themselves in the tent of meeting, 15 and the Lord appeared at the tent in a pillar of cloud; the pillar of cloud stood at the entrance to the tent.
16 The Lord said to Moses, “Soon you will lie down with your ancestors. THEN THIS PEOPLE WILL BEGIN TO PROSTITUTE THEMSELVES TO THE FOREIGN GODS IN THEIR MIDST, the gods of the land into which they are going; THEY WILL FORSAKE ME, BREAKING MY COVENANT that I have made with them. My anger will be kindled against them in that day. I will forsake them and hide my face from them; they will become easy prey, and many terrible troubles will come upon them. In that day they will say, ‘Have not these troubles come upon us because our God is not in our midst?’ On that day I will surely hide my face ON ACCOUNT OF ALL THE EVIL THEY HAVE DONE BY TURNING TO OTHER GODS. 19 Now therefore write this song, and teach it to the Israelites; put it in their mouths, IN ORDER THAT THIS SONG MAY BE A WITNESS FOR ME AGAINST THE ISRAELITES. 20 For when I have brought them into the land flowing with milk and honey, which I promised on oath to their ancestors, and they have eaten their fill and grown fat, THEY WILL TURN TO OTHER GODS AND SERVE THEM. DESPISING ME AND BREAKING MY COVENANT. 21 And when many terrible troubles come upon them, this song will confront them as a witness, because it will not be lost from the mouths of their descendants. FOR I KNOW WHAT THEY ARE INCLINED TO DO EVEN NOW, before I have brought them into the land that I promised them on oath.” 22 That very day Moses wrote this song and taught it to the Israelites.
23 Then the Lord commissioned Joshua son of Nun and said, “Be strong and bold, for you shall bring the Israelites into the land that I promised them; I will be with you.”
24 When Moses had finished writing down in a book the words of this law to the very end, 25 Moses commanded the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying, 26 “Take this book of the law and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God; let it remain there AS A WITNESS AGAINST YOU. 27 For I know well HOW REBELLIOUS AND STUBBORN YOU ARE. If you already have been so rebellious toward the Lord while I am still alive among you, HOW MUCH MORE AFTER MY DEATH! 28 Assemble to me all the elders of your tribes and your officials, so that I may recite these words in their hearing and call heaven and earth TO WITNESS AGAINST THEM. 29 For I KNOW that after my death YOU WILL SURELY ACT CORRUPTLY, TURNING ASIDE FROM THE WAY THAT I HAVE COMMANDED YOU. In time to come trouble will befall you, BECAUSE YOU WILL DO WHAT IS EVIL IN THE SIGHT OF THE LORD, PROVOKING HIM TO ANGER through the work of your hands.”
30 Then Moses recited the words of this song, to the very end, in the hearing of the whole assembly of Israel: Deuteronomy 31:14-30
Could Moses have been any clearer that, though God’s commands are not hard to observe, Israel was incapable of observing them due to being a group of unregenerate, stiff necked rebels who could not help but disobey God. In other words, the problem is not with God’s commands, but with the fallen, corrupt, tainted nature of man. Now pay attention to what Joshua told the Israelites:
“Now therefore revere the Lord, and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness; put away the gods that your ancestors served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. 15 Now if you are unwilling to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served in the region beyond the River or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.”
16 Then the people answered, “Far be it from us that we should forsake the Lord to serve other gods; 17 for it is the Lord our God who brought us and our ancestors up from the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery, and who did those great signs in our sight. He protected us along all the way that we went, and among all the peoples through whom we passed; 18 and the Lord drove out before us all the peoples, the Amorites who lived in the land. Therefore we also will serve the Lord, for he is our God.”
19 But Joshua said to the people, “YOU CANNOT SERVE THE LORD, for he is a holy God. He is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions or your sins. 20 If you forsake the Lord and serve foreign gods, then he will turn and do you harm, and consume you, after having done you good.” 21 And the people said to Joshua, “No, we will serve the Lord!” 22 Then Joshua said to the people, “YOU ARE WITNESSES AGAINST YOURSELVES that you have chosen the Lord, to serve him.” And they said, “We are witnesses.” 23 He said, “Then put away the foreign gods that are among you, and incline your hearts to the Lord, the God of Israel.” 24 The people said to Joshua, “The Lord our God we will serve, and him we will obey.” 25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and made statutes and ordinances for them at Shechem. 26 Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God; and he took a large stone, and set it up there under the oak in the sanctuary of the Lord. 27 Joshua said to all the people, “See, this stone shall be A WITNESS AGAINST US; for it has heard all the words of the Lord that he spoke to us; therefore it shall be A WITNESS AGAINST YOU, if you deal falsely with your God.” 28 So Joshua sent the people away to their inheritances. Joshua 24:14-28
Here we again have a reaffirmation of Israel’s inability to serve God because of their corrupt sinful nature. This is why they and the rest of us need a Savior.
So the context of these passages prove that the blessed Apostle Paul knew a lot more than you do, and a lot more than Muhammad and the rabbis did, since he understood and correctly interpreted the Hebrew Bible by the grace of the Lord Jesus.
So much for your appeal to Deuteronomy 30.
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Sam wrote: ‘Could Moses have been any clearer that, though God’s commands are not hard to observe’
thank you for agreeing with me Sam and correcting the egregious of error of Ken in his misreading of Deuteronomy 30.
‘Israel was incapable of observing them due to being a group of unregenerate, stiff necked rebels who could not help but disobey God. In other words, the problem is not with God’s commands, but with the fallen, corrupt, tainted nature of man. ‘
But you are reading later Christian theology INTO the Jewish scriptures when you refer to the alleged “fallen, corrupt, tainted nature of man”. That language comes from Paul, the apostate from Judaism, not from God. Man does not need to be “saved” according to judaism and Islam. We are not fallen. Jesus agrees.
God invites his people in Deuteronomy 30 to obey the law and choose life. God was not playing games. He was serious. Both you and Ken do not take the Bible seriously at this point and wish to dismiss God’s teaching and invitation to life.
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LOL yes it does say that.
‘…it is in your mouth and in your heart for you to OBSERVE.’
READ:
‘Surely, this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too hard for you, nor is it too far away. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us, and get it for us so that we may hear it and observe it?’ 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us, and get it for us so that we may hear it and observe it?’ 14 No, the word is very near to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart for you to observe.’
So God tells us His Law is not too hard to obey. End of.
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Did they observe it?
Numbers 13-14
Did Zacharias observe it?
Luke 1:19-20
Why not?
Why didn’t they obey God?
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So you agree now that God says they can OBSERVE it?!
Whether they choose to observe it is another question from the issue at hand. And does not alter God’s invitation to OBSERVE the Law.
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Revelation is progressive. Even your religion of Islam teaches this. It says many places that the Gospel is the fulfillment of the Torah. Surah 5:44-48, etc.
Read to the end of Luke and Acts and it points to this. New Testament fulfills the OT.
Isaiah 53 and Daniel 9:24-27 are further developments of Genesis 15:1-6
ooops; Shabir Ally contradicts Surah 4:157 in saying that the Jews actually believed Jesus was the Messiah and then killed Him (trying to come against the NT, not realizing he contradicted the Qur’an), yet the Qur’an says that in putting those words in the Jews mouths. (The Jewish leaders did not believe Jesus was the Messiah – Mark 14:60-64; Matthew 26:63-68 – they killed Him for claiming He was the Messiah, the Son of God; and their questions show that they understood the OT to be saying that the Messiah would also be the Son of God.
called Jesus the Messiah – Al Masih = المسیح
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The above comment starting with “Revelation is progressive . . . ” was in response to Paul Williams comment here:
Not obvious to anyone unless you come to the passage with evangelical spectacles. Historically it is dishonest and just laughable for you to suggest that Abraham knew anything about a ‘messiah’ – a much later Jewish notion. But real history does not matter to Ken.
Even the Qur’an proves that we are to interpret the OT (Torah, Tanakh) in light of the NT (Gospel, Injeel).
Genesis 15 is further developed in Isaiah 53 and Daniel 9:24-27 and then in John 8:56-58.
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‘Even the Qur’an proves that we are to interpret the OT (Torah, Tanakh) in light of the NT (Gospel, Injeel).’
Correction: The injeel, which the Quran says was GIVEN TO Jesus is obviously not your New Testament.
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John 17:8 – God the Father gave Jesus the Son the words, and Jesus gave the words to the apostles; the apostles later wrote them down. Jude 3 – the faith was once for all time delivered to the saints. NT writings were established for centuries before Qu’ran. all 27 books written before 100 AD and most of them quoted and used by Irenaeus and Tertullian around 180-220 AD. (the first 2 writings of large bodies of extant works still available to us.) Justin affirmed the gospels (150 AD) Clement of Rome and Ignatius also (96 Ad – 110 AD)
So, the “Injeel” is the NT. Boom.
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2 Peter was written in the 2nd century. The NT canon as you have it today was only agreed on in the 4th century (not earlier). See the Festal Letter of Athanasius, written for Easter of AD 367.
None of the 4 gospels are written by eyewitnesses.
Jesus preached a gospel in Galilee. He wrote nothing down. But if the scraps of what remains of it in the synoptics are accurate it is this gospel and not later Christian teaching that the Quran refers to. Paul preached a different religion to your Paul (compare Matt 5:17 with Ephesians 2:15).
OUCH!
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Williams wrote:
Correction: The injeel, which the Quran says was GIVEN TO Jesus is obviously not your New Testament.
CORRECTING the alleged correction: The same Quran says that the Injeel which was given to Jesus WAS IN THE POSSESSION OF THE CHRISTIANS OF MUHAMMAD’S TIME AND WERE TO JUDGE BY IT:
And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus son of Mary, confirming the Torah before him and We gave to him the Gospel, wherein IS guidance and light, and confirming the Torah before it, as a guidance and an admonition unto the godfearing. So let the People of the Gospel judge according to what God has sent down therein. Whosoever judges not according to what God has sent down — they are the ungodly. S. 5:46-48 Arberry
those who follow the Messenger, ‘the Prophet of the common folk, whom they find written down WITH THEM in the Torah AND THE GOSPEL, bidding them to honour, and forbidding them dishonour, making lawful for them the good things and making unlawful for them the corrupt things, and relieving them of their loads, and the fetters that were upon them. Those who believe in him and succour him and help him, and follow the light that has been sent down with him — they are the prosperers.’ S. 7:157 Arberry
And since the only Injeel the Christians historically possessed during that time is the books of the NT, Ken ends up being right ONCE AGAIN! This explains why you even have Muslim translators rendering the word Injeel as New Testament or Bible!
The followers of the Gospels (THE NEW TESTAMENT) must judge according to what God has revealed in it. Those who do not judge by the laws of God are evil doers. S. 5:47 Muhammad Sarwar
And We sent after (following) on their tracks with Jesus, Mary’s son confirming for what (is) between his hands from the Torah/Old Testament, and We gave him THE NEW TESTAMENT/BIBLE in it (is) guidance and light, and confirming to what (is) between his hands from the Torah/Old Testament, and guidance and a sermon/advice/warning to the fearing and obeying. And the NEW TESTAMENT’S/BIBLE’S people should judge/rule with what God descended in it, and who does not judge/rule with what God descended, so those, they are the debauchers. 5:46-47 Muhammed Ahmad – Samira
BAM!
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The Quran acknowledges that the gospel of Jesus is to be found in the existing gospels but is not coterminous with it. Christians are called by God in his final Testament to mankind to judge what they believe by the gospel *of* Jesus, and this teaching is confirmed by the Quran. The Quran also corrects the mis-interpretations by Christians who wrongly believe Jesus is God. Jesus bears witness in the Quran that he is just a man.
Clearly the four gospels are not the Injil. They make claims (eg about the crucifixion) that God has made clear are quite unhistorical. The Quran suggests that the ‘Gospel’ (Injil) is something given to Jesus by God (surah 5:46). So it is evident that in the Qur’an the divine Gospel was one revealed to Jesus and not books written about Jesus.
A quote from Montgomery Watt (who was Professor in Arabic and Islamic studies at the University of Edinburgh, and one of the foremost non-Muslim interpreters of Islam in the West):
“While it is stated that Jesus received from God a scripture called the Gospel (or Evangel – Injil), there is nothing to suggest that this was any more like our actual gospels in the New Testament than the tawrat received by Moses was like the actual Pentateuch. Indeed Muslims usually deny that our actual gospels are the book received by Jesus, since that consisted entirely of revelations from God and not of historical statements about Jesus.”
[William Montgomery Watt, Muslim-Christian Encounters. Perceptions And Misperceptions, Routledge, 1991, p. 24
BAM BAM!
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‘The followers of the Gospels (THE NEW TESTAMENT) must judge according to what God has revealed in it. Those who do not judge by the laws of God are evil doers. S. 5:47 Muhammad Sarwar’
A superior modern translation by Professor Adel Haleem:
‘So let the followers of the Gospel judge according to what God has sent down in it. Those who do not judge according to what God has revealed are lawbreakers.”
——————————————-
Bukhari Hadith: Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461:
Narrated Ubaidullah:
Ibn ‘Abbas said, “Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah’s Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, ‘It is from Allah,’ to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!”
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Williams wrote:
BEGIN
2 Peter was written in the 2nd century. The NT canon as you have it today was only agreed on in 4th century (not earlier). None of the 4 gospels are written by eyewitnesses.
Jesus preached a gospel in Galilee. He wrote nothing down. But if the scraps of what remains of it in the synoptics are accurate it is this gospel and not later Christian teaching that the Quran refers to. Paul preached a different religion to your Paul (compare Matt 5:17 with Ephesians 2:15).
OUCH!
END
And yet since Muhammad in the Quran confirmed the NT Scriptures that the Christians in his day possessed, Scriptures which contained the 4 Gospels and 2 Peter, this means that according to Williams his profit confirmed a 2nd century forgery and Gospels which were not written by eyewitnesses as all being the authentic revelation of God which were given as a light and guidance for mankind!
This further means that Williams has once again proven that Muhammad was a fraud who didn’t know what he was talking about!
Note how the following Muslims rendered Q. 5:46-47:
And We sent after (following) on their tracks with Jesus, Mary’s son confirming for what (is) between his hands from the Torah/Old Testament, and We gave him THE NEW TESTAMENT/BIBLE in it (is) guidance and light, and confirming to what (is) between his hands from the Torah/Old Testament, and guidance and a sermon/advice/warning to the fearing and obeying. And the NEW TESTAMENT’S/BIBLE’S people SHOULD JUDGE/RULE WITH WHAT GOD DESCENDED IN IT, and who does not judge/rule with what God descended, so those, they are the debauchers. Muhammed Ahmad – Samira
And in their footsteps (as if to follow them) We sent Isa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), restating the Torah that had come before him: We sent THE BIBLE, THE GOSPEL, the Gospel to him: There was guidance and light in it, and confirmation of Torah that had come before him: A guidance and a warning to those who fear Allah. Let the people OF BIBLE (GOSPEL), the Christians JUDGE BY WHAT ALLAH HAS MADE CLEAR IN THERE. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah has made clear, they are (no better than) those who rebel. Syed Vikar Ahamed
The followers of the Gospels (THE NEW TESTAMENT) MUST JUDGE ACCORDING TO WHAT GOD HAS REVEALED IN IT. Those who do not judge by the laws of God are evil doers. S. 5:47 Muhammad Sarwar
And now how they render Q. 5:66 and 68,
Had they followed the Laws OF THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENTS and what was revealed to them from their Lord, they would have received Our bounties from above and below in abundance. Some of them are modest people, but many of them commit the worst sins… (Muhammad), tell the People of the Book, “You have nothing unless you follow THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENTS and that which (the Quran) God has revealed to you.” Whatever has been revealed to you (Muhammad) from your Lord will only increase their disbelief and rebellion (against you). Do not grieve for the unbelieving people. Muhammad Sarwar
And if that they took care of the Torah/Old Testament, AND THE BIBLE/NEW TESTAMENT and what was descended to them from their Lord, they would have eaten from above them and from below their feet; from them (is) a nation economizing/moderate , and many from them what they were making/doing became bad/evil/harmful… Say: “You The Book’s people, you are not on a thing, until you keep up the Torah/Old Testament AND THE BIBLE/NEW TESTAMENT, and what was descended to you from your (P) Lord.” And what was descended to you (S/M) from your Lord increases (E) many of them tyranny/arrogance, and disbelief, so do not grieve/sadden on the nation, the disbelieving. Muhammed Ahmad – Samira
As well as Q. 5:110:
when God said: “You Jesus Mary’s son, remember My blessing on you and on your mother, when I supported you with the Holy/Sanctimonious Soul/Spirit, you speak/converse (to) the people in the crib/cradle and aged approximately between thirty to fifty years , and when I taught/instructed/informed you The Book , and the wisdom , and the Torah/Old Testament, AND THE NEW TESTAMENT/BIBLE, and when you create as a shape/form (of) the bird/birds with My permission, so you blow in it, so it will be flying/birds, with My permission, and you cure and heal the blind/born blind, and the leper with My permission, and when you bring out the deads with My permission, and when I prevented/stopped Israel’s sons and daughters from you, when you came to them with the evidences, so those who disbelieved from them said: “That that (is) except clear/evident magic/sorcery.” Muhammed Ahmad – Samira
And here is one on Q. 7:157:
Those who follow the messenger, the prophet the illiterate/belonging to a nation, whom they find him written at them in the Torah/Old Testament, AND THE NEW TESTAMENT/BIBLE… Muhammed Ahmad – Samira
DOUBLE OUCH!
Keep up the great work Williams of using arguments that end up exposing Muhammad as a false prophet. Way to go mate! 😉
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Your distortion of Ibn Abbas obliterated here: http://answeringislam.net/Quran/Bible/ibnabbas_bukhari.htm
And now let’s see what Ibn Abbas is reported to have said about the incorruptibility of the Holy Bible:
Sahih al-Bukhari records Muhammad’s first cousin and close companion Ibn Abbas, considered one of the greatest Islamic scholars of all time, making the claim that all of God’s revealed Books remain uncorrupted. He is reported to have said that no person is able to change any of the words from God’s Scriptures, but that they could distort their meanings by misinterpreting them:
Sahih al-Bukhari, Kitaab Al-Tawheed, Baab Qawlu Allah Ta’ala, “Bal Huwa Qur’aanun Majeed, fi lawhin Mahfooth” (i.e. in Sahih al-Bukhari, Book “The Oneness of God”, the Chapter on Surat Al-Borooj (no. 85), Verses 21, 22 saying, “Nay this is a Glorious Qur’an, (Inscribed) in a Tablet Preserved.”) we find in a footnote between 9.642 and 643:
“They corrupt the word” means “they alter or change its meaning.” Yet no one is able to change even a single word from any Book of God. The meaning is that they interpret the word wrongly. [… and he continues to speak about how the Qur’an is preserved …]
Here is another English version:
LV. The words of Allah Almighty, “It is indeed a Glorious Qur’an preserved on a Tablet.” (85:21-22)
“By the Mount and an Inscribed Book” (52:1-2): Qatada said that “mastur” means “written”. “Yasturun” (68:1) means “they inscribe”, and the Umm al-Kitab (43:4) is the whole of the Qur’an and its source. [He said that] “ma talfizu” (50:18) means: “He does not say anything but that it is written against him.” Ibn ‘Abbas said, “Both good and evil are recorded,” and “yuharrufuna” (4:46) means “they remove”. NO ONE REMOVES THE WORKS[sic] OF ONE OF THE BOOKS OF ALLAH ALMIGHTY, BUT THEY TWIST THEM, INTERPRETING THEM IMPROPERLY. “Dirasatihim: (6:156) means “their recitation” “Wa’iyya” (69:12) is preserving, “ta’iha” (69:12) means to “preserve it”. “This Qur’an has been revealed to me by inspiration that I may warn you,” meaning the people of Makka, “and all whom it reaches”(6:19) meaning this Qur’an, so he is its warner. (Aisha Bewley, Sahih Collection of al-Bukhari, 100. Book of Tawhid (the belief that Allah is One in His Essence, Attributes and Actions); capital and underline emphasis ours)
Renowned Sunni commentator Ibn Kathir cited al-Bukhari’s statements from Ibn Abbas regarding the incorruptibility of the Holy Scriptures, as well as the view of another Muslim who also believed that God’s Scriptures couldn’t be corrupted:
Mujahid. Ash-Sha’bi, Al-Hassan, Qatadah and Ar-Rabi’ bin Anas said that,
means, “They alter (Allah’s Words).”
Al-Bukhari reported that Ibn ‘Abbas said that the Ayah means they alter and add although none among Allah’s creation CAN REMOVE THE WORDS OF ALLAH FROM HIS BOOKS, THEY ALTER AND DISTORT THEIR APPARENT MEANINGS. Wahb bin Munabbih said, “The Tawrah and Injil REMAIN AS ALLAH REVEALED THEM, AND NO LETTER IN THEM WAS REMOVED. However, the people misguide others by addition and false interpretation, relying on books that they wrote themselves.” Then,
As for Allah’s books, THEY ARE STILL PRESERVED AND CANNOT BE CHANGED.” Ibn Abi Hatim recorded this statement … (Tafsir Ibn Kathir – Abridged, Volume 2, Parts 3, 4 & 5, Surat Al-Baqarah, Verse 253, to Surat An-Nisa, verse 147 [Darussalam Publishers & Distributors, Riyadh, Houston, New York, Lahore; First Edition: March 2000], p. 196; source; bold and capital emphasis ours)
It would seem pretty clear from the foregoing that the first Muslims (at least two prominent ones) believed that the Scriptures that were revealed before the Quran such as the Torah/Law of Moses and the Injil/Gospel of Jesus remained intact and uncorrupted.
TRIPLE BAM RIGHT BACK AT YA!
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Sam, of course Islam teaches that the previous Scripture have been corrupted. I cited this Bukhari Hadith which makes that fact crystal clear. You just ignored it!
Here it is again. Read it carefully:
Ibn ‘Abbas said, “Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah’s Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, ‘It is from Allah,’ to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!”
Irrefutable evidence!
Quadruple Bam!
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Williams, you mean the same ABDEL HALEEM WHOM YOU SPOKE WITH AND WHOM YOU ADMITTED THAT DAVID WOOD AND I ARE RIGHT THAT THE QURAN DOES NOT TEACH THAT THE BIBLE IS CORRUPTED? http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2014/03/the-uncorrupted-injeel.html
Man I feel embarrassed for you!
And that will be a QUADRUPLE OUCH AND BAM RIGHT BACK AT AY! 😉
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Excellent point, Sam. So glad all that information is saved there; since Paul deleted his old web-site; even deleted two of them before.
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I think it is important to state that the interview with Muhammad Abdel Haleem has him saying that the Tanakh is not corrupted. The NT is not granted the same acceptance in Haleems’ eyes.
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And does not alter God’s invitation to OBSERVE the Law.
of course, God commands obedience all the time. But do humans do the obedience perfectly?
The main point in context was they were not to say “we don’t know what it says”; it is too far away and mysterious and unknown – in heaven or across the sea. the point is, don’t keep making excuses – read and know it and learn and it, for the purpose of obedience, but the obedience is always failing; never perfect.
Why did Zacharias fail in Luke 1:19-20 ?
Why did Israel fail in Numbers 13-14 ?
Why did Noah fail after the flood, after God got rid of the sinners? (Genesis chapters 6-9)
What is God trying to show us?
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Sam makes some great points:
Joshua 24:19
“you will not be able to serve the LORD your God, for He is a holy God . . . ”
not able
cannot
inability
Deuteronomy 31:27- 29
For I know well HOW REBELLIOUS AND STUBBORN YOU ARE. If you already have been so rebellious toward the Lord while I am still alive among you, HOW MUCH MORE AFTER MY DEATH!
28 Assemble to me all the elders of your tribes and your officials, so that I may recite these words in their hearing and call heaven and earth TO WITNESS AGAINST THEM.
29 For I KNOW that after my death YOU WILL SURELY ACT CORRUPTLY, TURNING ASIDE FROM THE WAY THAT I HAVE COMMANDED YOU. In time to come trouble will befall you, BECAUSE YOU WILL DO WHAT IS EVIL IN THE SIGHT OF THE LORD, PROVOKING HIM TO ANGER through the work of your hands.”
come right after your favorite section in Deuteronomy 30.
So, you need to keep reading the passages, Luke 1 and the rest of Luke; and Deut. 31 and Joshua 24
Keep reading and get the fuller context.
Shows the purpose of the law is to keep on frustrating us to show us we can never live up to it and then we despair of own efforts and turn to Christ in repentance and faith.
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Ken your teaching is in direct contradiction God in Deuteronomy 30. You wrongly claim man cannot obey God. God says otherwise.
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God said it in Deut. 31 and Joshua 24, not me. I am just quoting what God says.
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You misquote what God says. You need to because God disagrees with your Christian theology.
In Joshua 24:24-25 the people promise eventually to obey God and all his commandments. Joshua accepts this. So you are wrong.
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Furthermore, promising to obey is not the same thing as ability to obey or even that they did obey. They did not obey fully and the book of Judges proves that.
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Talk about butchering what Joshua said! Let’s repeat Joshua’s words:
26 Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God; and he took a large stone, and set it up there under the oak in the sanctuary of the Lord. 27 Joshua said to all the people, “See, this stone shall be A WITNESS AGAINST US; for it has heard all the words of the Lord that he spoke to us; therefore it shall be A WITNESS AGAINST YOU, if you deal falsely with your God.” 28 So Joshua sent the people away to their inheritances. Joshua 24:27-28
Which part of Joshua’s words in vv. 27-28 you didn’t understand when he clearly told them that they are WITNESSING AGAINST THEMSELVES since they will not be able to serve God. Moreover, continue reading in Judges AND YOU WILL SEE THAT JOSHUA WAS RIGHT SINCE ISRAEL FAILED TO OBEY GOD, JUST LIKE MOSES AND JOSHUA SAID!
Williams you really are desperate. Face reality. Ken and the blessed Apostle Paul stand vindicated!
So much for your appeal to Deuteronomy 30.
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St Sam far be it from me to question the interpretations of Holy scripture by a living saint but doesn’t the reference you cite say ‘if you deal falsely with your God’ not ‘when’ so it is hardly a done deal that people will not obey the Torah.
Deuteronomy 31 is of course after 30 so one would assume (with respect) that one might read the latter with the statement of the former in mind namely that the Torah can be obeyed. Luke 1 states rather clearly that Zechariah and Elizabeth were ‘righteous before God’ not just by men while it is true of course that Zechariah was stricken mute but why if Zechariah was not righteous would Luke declare him as such?
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St Sam lol
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Luke wrote that in Luke 1:6 because it is a relative righteousness; because it means that they were pious believers, but not perfect or sinless, like Job 1:1 and Genesis 6:9 (about Noah) and Genesis 17:1 and 26:5 (about Abraham), though they were not sinless and embedding in those same narratives are about their sins. The difference is a true believer hates his sin and fights against it and confesses it in prayer and repentance and godly sorrow (sometimes with weeping and crying and fasting, etc.) like David in Psalm 51 and 32 and other places.
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Ken Luke doesn’t say it was a relative righteouness but rather one that was acceptable to God you are simply inserting words in Lukes mouth in order to justify your theology. Interesting though that you would quote other texts that demonstrate others who are considered righteous:
These are the descendants of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation; Noah walked with God. – Genesis 6:9
There was once a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job. That man was blameless and upright, one who feared God and turned away from evil. – Job 1:1
When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said to him, “I am God Almighty;walk before me, and be blameless. – Genesis 17:1
Ken why would God tell Abraham that if he obeyed God that he would be blameless if it were not possible to do? Why would Job be considered blameless by his not doing any evil if such were not possible? and why would God have saved Noah and his family on the basis of them being the only righteous people on earth at the tme if they were in fact not and could never be until Jesus appeared centuries later?
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Excellent points Patrice which undermine Ken’s whole theology. So expect to see him quote lots of Paul (!) to refute you.
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Why did Zacharias fail in Luke 1:19-20 ?
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Better yet, why did Jesus say that by obeying the Law a man could be saved?
‘Then someone came to him and said, ‘Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?’ 17 And he said to him, ‘Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.’
It’s a good thing St Paul came along to put Jesus right on this!
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You are jumping from Luke chapter to another context; seemingly to avoid the issue. We have already discussed that passage a lot, and you lost that battle because you didn’t keep reading there in Mark 10 all the way to verse 27. You are doing the same thing here you did there, you stopped reading too soon and so left out the rest of the passage. You have to include Mark 10:20-27 and not just verses 17-19, just as you must keep reading in Luke beyond Luke 1:6 to include Luke 1:19-20.
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sorry, meant to say:
You are jumping from Luke chapter 1 to another context, (to Mark 10)
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Kmak wrote:
You realize your explanation makes God look like a d’ick? He imposed hard, useless laws on men just to frustrate them. Only a di’ck would do that.
Pretty blasphemous there bud. (and ugly and nasty talk)
not “just to frustrate them”, but “to frustrate them and then drive them to trust in Christ in repentance and faith in Him”. You left that part out. Christ came and lived the perfect life and did not take revenge when people persecuted Him and loved His enemies, forgave them, and conquered death, the devil, and the world.
Come to Christ to find freedom, freedom from legalism, guilt, and the power to overcome sin. He has the living water.
They are not useless, but they are hard, even and impossible.
Even Jesus said this, “with man it is impossible, but not with God, for with God, all things are possible.”
Mark 10:26-27
“Who can be saved” (the said to Jesus) realizing that no one can be saved. (in their own power and strength)
The Lord’s commands and standards expose our evil hearts of lusts, pride, jealousies, idolatries of pleasures, sinful anger, rancour, bitterness, etc.
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Ken Temple
You said;
not “just to frustrate them”, but “to frustrate them and then drive them to trust in Christ in repentance and faith in Him”. You left that part out. Christ came and lived the perfect life and did not take revenge when people persecuted Him and loved His enemies, forgave them, and conquered death, the devil, and the world.
I say;
May be you do not know the Bible very well because Jesus did not love his enemies and will not love his enemies
Proof:
New International Version
But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them–bring them here and kill them in front of me.'”
New Living Translation
And as for these enemies of mine who didn’t want me to be their king–bring them in and execute them right here in front of me.’
You said;
“Who can be saved” (the said to Jesus) realizing that no one can be saved. (in their own power and strength)
The Lord’s commands and standards expose our evil hearts of lusts, pride, jealousies, idolatries of pleasures, sinful anger, rancour, bitterness, etc.
I say;
If anger, rancour, jealousies, bitterness are sins then Jesus Christ sins by insulting a woman Dog because his bitterness, anger and jealousies.
Why did God create righteousness and evil and commanded us to choose righteousness of evil if he knew he will die and it is only his death that can save us? Why not tell us by God her people “believe I died for your sins and you are saved” but instead it is clear in all scriptures tonnes of verses that command us to be righteous and not to do evil.
God dying for our sins is not and no where in the Bible but invented by Trinitarians which Christians from Jesus time did believe and Arians had to be persecuted.
Thanks.
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Luke 19:27 is the last verse of a long parable. Do you know what a parable is, “Intellect” ?? It is talking about judgment day and hell and Christ as the King’s right to send unbelievers to hell. Since you believe in hell also, and in Allah’s right to send them to hell; then this verse does not help your case. Go back and read the whole parable and think. Notice the King goes away for a while and then returns later. the return is symbolic for at the end of time, when He receives the kingdom. Then He judges people. The execution is symbolic of the judgement day at the end of time, which you also believe in.
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No matter how many years Shamoun has been at it or how many artciles he has written, he will never be anything more than a cheap, amateur poelmicist.
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Dear friend
I am not sure why is that, that you forgot to read the verses before Galatians 2.21. I mean I think we should read thr context befote we form opinions right?
Let alone sharing it with the world!
Thr passage says ”
15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is justified[d] not by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ.[e]And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we might be justified by faith in Christ,[f] and not by doing the works of the law, because no one will be justified by the works of the law. 17 But if, in our effort to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have been found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! 18 But if I build up again the very things that I once tore down, then I demonstrate that I am a transgressor.19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; 20 and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God,[g] who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification[h]comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.”
thst Justification comes from Faith in Jesus Christ not by Laws!
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Dude don’t call me “dear friend”. I don’t know you from Adam. It’s creepy
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Well what to do Jesus taught me to call every strager a friend to love them like one even when they dont want to take it! I understand.
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Where did Jesus tell you to call everyone your friend?
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John 13:34-35
34 I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another.35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
and I believe friendship can be a way of loving each other!
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That is addressed to his disciples not the whole wide world.
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We all who follow Jesus are Hid apostles. Christian means follower of Christ.
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Thank you I did not know that.
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His
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Ken Temple
You said;
Luke 19:27 is the last verse of a long parable. Do you know what a parable is, “Intellect” ?? It is talking about judgment day and hell and Christ as the King’s right to send unbelievers to hell. Since you believe in hell also, and in Allah’s right to send them to hell; then this verse does not help your case. Go back and read the whole parable and think. Notice the King goes away for a while and then returns later. the return is symbolic for at the end of time, when He receives the kingdom. Then He judges people. The execution is symbolic of the judgement day at the end of time, which you also believe in.
I say;
The verse clearly said Jesus is for punishing his enemy and it did not say God. If Jesus is God, then he is not God of love as Christians would like us to believe. Why must God of love punish His enemies? He is no more God of love.
What nonsense is that for Christians to keep bashing Allah because He punishes those who do not obey Him but it turns out that their God Jesus in Trinitarianism punishes those who do not him. What nonsense it that?
The wise thing for a Christian to do is to stop attacking Allah for His punishment because Jesus does worse punishment in the Bible.
Ken, if you or any Christian will stop being Christian because of its atrocities and becomes atheist, then you can attack Islam with regards to punishment.
An Christian who attach Islam on punishment, I will immediately bring Luke. You will explain it Ken but will not allow Muslims to explain theirs. Is a parable to kill enemies good? I do not think so.
Thanks.
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D
You said;
I’m still waiting for him to answer my question – how is it possible that Moses and mohammed had more wisdom than allah since they had more understanding of human nature and knew that 50 prayers a day would be an impossible undertaking.
I say;
Very disrespectful and arrogant Christian who does not capitalize the Allah whom his fellow Arab Christians and also Jews call their God. You do not have Holy Spirit in you according to Ken because you are full of hatred, arrogance, angry etc. like Donald Trump and his supporters.
Paul of Tarsus said the law of Moses must not be followed. Does it mean that Paul of Tarsus has more wisdom than Jesus Christ?
You are desperate and a lost Trinitarian who attack Islam and Muslims any how without thinking like Sam Shamoun.
Thanks.
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D’s comments are getting deleted
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Enjoy!
https://answeringislamblog.wordpress.com/2016/09/09/the-messiah-our-righteousness-has-come/
Now watch what I am going to your apotheosis file. I am going to use that to again show how in your blind hatred of your God and Master Jesus Christ, you end up making arguments that prove Muhammad was an agent of Satan and an antichrist! great job of helping the Christian cause my brother! If I didn’t know any better I would think you are a closet Christian pretending to be Muslim in order to destroy Muhammad from within. 😉
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You say “enjoy”, but I won’t be Sam, I’m not even going to read it. You know why.
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Good me. The inability to contrast between the Old Testament righteousness, which has to do with following the law, and New Testament righteousness, which is in reference to being sinless, is frightening.
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