‹ What is the Future of English Identity? Paul Williams vs. Bill Baker (Sky Channel, UK 8th May 2010)
Categories: Christianity, God, Islam, Missionaries
- Comment
- Reblog
-
Subscribe
Subscribed
Already have a WordPress.com account? Log in now.
Blogging Theology 
I wonder if there are any Christian groups who herald the so called killers of Jesus as saints. I doubt it but these killers in the story enable the purported purpose of Jesus’ to be completed – he was to be killed for the sins of the world. In fact in a way, the killers in the story had a more active role than Jesus in this killing for the redemption of the world.
I’d actually like a more in depth discussion to take place between Dr Shabir on the philosophy around the crucifixion story. Perhaps Dr Dale Tuggy would be an ideal candidate as the idea of “God dying” wouldn’t come up in the dialogue.
LikeLiked by 3 people
David Wood did an excellent job of answering the question that Muslims constantly ask, “how can God die?”
David shows from the Qur’an 27:9-7 that Allah can and did enter into His creation if He wants to.
Paul Williams keeps harping on that point, that God cannot die, (from 1 Timothy 1:17 and 6:15-16; not 1 Tim. 1:6) but God the Son, the eternal word who became flesh, the God-man died.
And Shabir did not “own” Jay Smith. who was running the world when Jesus died? answer: the Father.
Another problem is that Shabir asked who wrote Romans 6:23 – the wages of sin is death. By trying to some who say that because the apostle Paul wrote that, that somehow there is a problem. No, because the doctine goes back to Genesis 2:16-17 and 3:6-8 and 3:22-24 and Ezekiel 18 – “the soul that sins, it shall die”. all have sinned; and even the Qur’an admits this in Surah 16:61, which teaches that all people have sinned and do sin and that Allah punishes sin. (agreeing with Romans 6:23 and 3:23)
LikeLike
Ken Temple
The Bible never said God Man is immortal or God the Son is immortal but the Bible said God is immortal. Why are you changing words and phrase like that? to your whims and caprice. A Trinitarians can change or add words at will for his whims and caprice but will not allow anyone to do that. That is bullying and lies.
Thanks.
LikeLike
There are a couple of conumdrums in the islamic view as I see it.
They keep saying that Allah forgives sins without punishment but if the sin is a crime then sharia punishes with a fine or a flogging or stoning or mutilating someone?
So there is no forgiveness if the sin is a crime.
Secondly if some human act is not a crime and there is no punishment by Allah then why bother calling it a sin in the first place? It may not be the best behaviour but it is not a sin because there is no punishment. If a fly lands on your arm is the fly committing a sin? It might be a slight annoyance but is it a sin? It’s the same thing with Allah. If some human behaviour causes Allah some slight discomfort like a fly flying around your food in a restaurant is the forgiveness or the sin a big deal? Neither is a big deal is it? If a behaviour is not punished then it is acceptable even if it might be slightly annoying but it doesn’t cause Allah any pain such that he has to punish it. It is just an acceptable imperfection but why call it a sin in that case?
God is not like this in the bible. In the bible there are no small sins. All sins are venial sins with eternal death as the punishment. Eve took the forbidden fruit. Every sin is a specific disobeying of a commandment to love God with all and our neighbour as ourself . The bar seems to be set a lot lower in Islam so the offence is a lot smaller. As long as a Muslim worships, pays his taxes and keeps his family under control he has done his duty. The biblical God demands a lot more, namely perfection.
It appears to be that there are differences between the concept of sin in the bible and in Islam. These should be born in mind when we are talking about which God is more merciful and forgiving.
LikeLike
An extract from my book which has some relevant comments:
Islam places great stress on God as a God of mercy and forgiveness whom the individual can approach directly without the need of any mediator or priest. God says in the Quran:
‘O My servants, who have transgressed against their souls. Do not despair of the mercy of God, for He forgives all sins, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.’
(39:53).
From this understanding, which was shared by Jesus, flow certain critical observations regarding the later Christian view of the necessity of Jesus’ alleged vicarious atonement.
The Christian idea that guilt can be removed from a wrongdoer by someone else being punished instead is morally grotesque. Or if we say that God in the person of God the Son punished himself in order to be able to justly forgive sinners, we still have the absurdity of a moral law which God must satisfy by punishing the innocent in place of the guilty.
I believe the basic fault of the Christian understanding of salvation is that it has no room for divine forgiveness. For a forgiveness that has to be bought by the bearing of a just punishment, or the offering of a sacrifice, is not forgiveness, but merely an acknowledgement that a debt has been paid in full. The Cross is not a symbol of forgiveness at all: on the orthodox Christian view, it denotes the repayment of a debt, as the infinity of Original Sin is atoned for by the infinite sacrifice of God’s own temporary death. But what humanity really needs, as we look back over our long record of disobedience, is a model of true forgiveness by a God who does not calculate, who imposes no mean-spirited ‘economy of salvation’ worthy only of accountants and bookkeepers. As the Bible teaches: ‘The letter killeth – the spirit giveth life.’
But in the authentic teaching of Jesus to be found in the synoptic gospels (that is the gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke) there is, in contrast, genuine divine forgiveness for those who truly repent. In the Lord’s Prayer we are taught to address God directly and to ask for forgiveness for our sins, expecting to receive this, the only condition being that we in turn forgive one another. There is no suggestion of the need for a mediator between ourselves and God or for an atoning death to enable God to forgive.
One of the most famous of all Jesus’ parables is found in Luke’s gospel: the so-called parable of the prodigal son. It is a story about how God treats repentant sinners. Note that the father when he sees his repentant son returning home does not say ‘Because I am a just as well as a loving father, I cannot forgive him until someone has been duly punished for his sins’, but rather he had compassion, and ran and embraced him and welcomed him home. So God does not need a sacrifice in order to forgive anyone. As the English convert from Christianity to Islam Ruqaiyyah Maqsood wrote: ‘the split-second of turning from Christianity to Islam is the realisation of the truth of the parable of the Prodigal Son. In the parables, God is loving enough to forgive directly. That was the whole glory of the Judaism which Jesus upheld.’
Another example is to be found in Luke’s story of the tax collector and the Pharisee, the tax collector standing far off would not lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner’. Jesus declared that this man went home justified before God. Jesus insisted that he came to bring sinners to a penitent acceptance of God’s mercy: ‘Go and learn what this means, he said, quoting God: “I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.” For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners (Matt 9.13)
In my experience Christians often use the analogy of a ‘debt’ to explain how God needs someone to pay off our sin debt to him, and, because of his justice, he must take the payment from someone. Jesus however had very different ideas about God, namely that God is quite able to just cancel our debt of sin and forgive the sinner.
In Matthew 18 we read Jesus’ teaching:
The Kingdom of Heaven can be compared to a king who decided to bring his accounts up to date with servants who had borrowed money from him. In the process, one of his debtors was brought in who owed him millions of pounds. He couldn’t pay, so his master ordered that he be sold—along with his wife, his children, and everything he owned—to pay the debt.
“But the man fell down before his master and begged him, ‘Please, be patient with me, and I will pay it all.’ Then his master was filled with pity for him, and he released him and forgave his debt.
“But when the man left the king, he went to a fellow servant who owed him a few thousand pounds. He grabbed him by the throat and demanded instant payment.
“His fellow servant fell down before him and begged for a little more time. ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it,’ he pleaded. But his creditor wouldn’t wait. He had the man arrested and put in prison until the debt could be paid in full.
“When some of the other servants saw this, they were very upset. They went to the king and told him everything that had happened. Then the king called in the man he had forgiven and said, ‘You evil servant! I forgave you that tremendous debt because you pleaded with me. Shouldn’t you have mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had mercy on you?’ Then the angry king sent the man to prison to be tortured until he had paid his entire debt.
“That’s what my heavenly Father will do to you if you refuse to forgive your brothers and sisters from your heart.”
So God freely forgives our sins and expects us to forgive our neighbour too. The Lord’s Prayer, of course, has the same commandment.
LikeLiked by 1 person
” All sins are venial sins with eternal death as the punishment.”
Woops. I should have said “All sins are mortal sins with eternal death as the result”.
This is a live show folks.
LikeLike
btw do you agree with Jay Smith that God died?
LikeLike
The God man died. I think that’s what he meant. I don’t think he was giving a rigourous definition of the theological event.
You must have had this conversation hundreds of times.
LikeLike
The Bible says God is immortal: 1 Tim 1:6
LikeLike
I obviously have to agree with that.
LikeLike
I don’t see this truth as an obstacle to the death of Jesus.
LikeLike
It is as then you believe in human sacrifice which is barbaric and unworthy of God
LikeLike
For human beings death is just a transition. From one conscious state to another.
LikeLike
Are we not immortal also through God’s power?
LikeLike
? Did you not read my comment? It is barbaric and weird to think the Almighty requires a human sacrifice to forgive your sin. Just like the Aztecs in fact.
LikeLike
btw bad news: you are not immortal – you will die. Sorry.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Your own Koran says crucify those who make corruption in the land. So Allah must approve of the method, even though according to you it is “barbaric and weird”?
LikeLike
Erasmus
Allah did not crucify himself which is suicide or his innocent son which murder. Allah says punish someone who will terrorise society. There is war on terror going on these days. That is war on terror. The method is not on himself or HIS INNOCENT SON.
We talking about using the method on Himself or His innocent son.
Thanks.
LikeLike
The Aztecs should have obeyed the Mosaic law which says thou shalt not kill.
Can we apply this law to God, as you seem to be doing?
Of course God’s solution to the problem of sin could be said to be weird or unusual but does that make it impossible on those grounds alone?
Is God bound by his laws given to mankind? I don’t think so.
Purely theoretically you don’t have any yardstick by which to judge the solution of Jesus death as wrong. Does God allow himself to be weighed in the balances and found wanting by human beings?
LikeLike
Erasmus
You are right, God is not bound by law given to mankind. I strongly believe so because He is God.
How do you then expect God to satisfy by force or any hook and crook method the just law of atoning sin or blood sacrifice?
Thanks.
LikeLike
There is no “problem of sin”.
LikeLike
” Luke 10 v 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”
The soul of Jesus was not killed during his crucifixion and resurrection so the fact of his bodily death alone is arguably not enough to prove that he is not divine.
LikeLike
God is forgiving and merciful he does not need barbaric human sacrifices to appease his wrath.
LikeLike
You said;
The soul of Jesus was not killed during his crucifixion and resurrection so the fact of his bodily death alone is arguably not enough to prove that he is not divine.
I say;
So all humans are Gods, the creators of everything? because of their soul? We are not talking about soul for God sake my Trinitarian friend. We are talking about human being dying not soul dying. If by soul not dying makes a person God, then we are all God and who ever believes in more than one God is a polytheist and idol worshiper.
IT IS ABOUT SOUL DYING BUT ABOUT HUMAN BEING DYING.
Besides the Bible said God does not DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE, and God will not die. Anything that dies like Jesus Christ is not God. The Bible did not say God soul does not die but it said God does not die. The Bible also never said Gods body can die. It is blaspheme to the highest degree to say Gods body i.e. Jesus died. The Bible did not teach that and it is blaspheme.
Thanks.
LikeLike
Paul Williams
“God is forgiving and merciful he does not need barbaric human sacrifices to appease his wrath.”
But he wants you to cut off the hands of thieves, whip or stone adulterers, and murder apostates to appease his wrath.
Stop deluding yourself.
LikeLike
Former Muslim
You said;
But he wants you to cut off the hands of thieves, whip or stone adulterers, and murder apostates to appease his wrath.
I say;
That is if they do not sincerely repent to God. If they do sincerely repent to God, then God will forgive them free of charge.
\y
As a former Muslim, you must have known that civic law is there to deter bad people from harming society but it has nothing to do with God Mercy and forgiveness.
Jesus commanded the murder of apostates and murder of children even though Christians lied that Jesus loves everyone and died for everyone’s sin.
We do not care if you are a former Muslim or not. It is not necessary and it is childish to think we care about that. There are so many former Christians including this blog owner. He is well known and you are not known to anyone. You might be lying or telling the truth but we do not know you.
You can open a blog like this one and put your case there. I assure you that you will not get even one person to visit your site.
Thanks.
LikeLike
Intellect
There are plenty of societies that deter bad people from harming society that don’t resort to – in Paul’s words – barbaric – practices to appease their god.
Paul criticizes other gods for barbaric sacrifices – which incidentally was a one-off deal that put an end to all sacrifice – while at the same time he, and you, worship a god that demands savage and barbaric punishments designed to kill painfully, maim painfully, or physically damage painfully.
If you don’t see this you are either deluding yourself, or yo are extremely wicked and sadistic to believe that these kinds of excruciatingly painful punishments are justified.
LikeLike
Former Muslim
Not Islam alone but most societies resort to barbaric practice not to appease their God but deter criminals in this world i.e. capital punishment, prison system etc.
The more barbaric the deterrent the less criminals. Who does not want less criminals?
Your God killed His innocent son or commits suicide to save a criminal who just believed FAITH Jesus died for his sins. It is not to deter criminals but encourage them.
That is not Mercy and Forgiveness.
Thanks
LikeLiked by 2 people
Intellect
I guess the answer to my question is that you are wicked and sadistic.
There are plenty of countries that have safe societies with low rates of violent crime that do not resort to cutting off people’s hands or killing apostates. Islamic savagery is not necessary to maintain a safe society.
We don’t have to maim, and inflict painful deaths on people in order to keep society safe. That was the clearest indication to me that islam is false.
Human beings in several countries have been able to create societies that don’t on savage killing and murder to make people behave – why can’t allah do the same? How can humans achieve something that allah cannot?
LikeLike
Former Muslim
Human beings in several countries have been able to create societies that don’t on savage killing and murder to make people behave – why can’t allah do the same? How can humans achieve something that allah cannot?
I say;
That is not true. Countries with hasher punishment i.ae. capital punishment has less crime rate than countries that did not implement capital punishment.
I and someone like you did the research here a couple of months ago.
Thanks.
LikeLike
Intellect
It is true you sadist.
Capital punishment need not be brutal and in many countries there is absolutely no intent to cause painful suffering. Cutting off people’s hands and stoning adulterers are meant to cause extreme pain and suffering. And it is savage to cut off people’s heads because they change their beliefs.
You don’t need commit acts of evil barbarism to make people behave.
LikeLike
Former Muslim
Hanging Jesus Christ on the cross by himself or his father is more painful than all pains and causes suffering and extreme pain than anyone else. Jesus as God commanding the killing of apostates and killing of children and animal is the cruel thing that even an idol God will not command.
Thanks.
LikeLike
Paul Williams distorted the meaning of the parable in Matthew 18. I refuted you a long long time ago on that, yet you keep repeating your same old distortions.
http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2012/04/muslim-distorts-meaning-of-parable-of.html
LikeLike
Also, it seems Muslims keep refusing to understand what voluntarily and willingly means. Amazing.
God the Son was willing and voluntarily came to suffer and die for sins.
Jesus was 100 % human, yet without sin, and He willingly submitted to the Father’s will. Luke 22:42; John 10:18
The view of Islam is a denigration of God’s holy justice against sin.
You cannot know if God really forgives you, because deep down you know you have some secret sins and you have not assurance that Allah will accept you on the day of judgment, because it is “Enshall’allah” ( If God wills) – he can reject you if He wants to and we have no right to question. There is no assurance of peace or forgiveness in Islam.
Whereas in Christianity, both Divine justice and mercy/forgiveness/love is demonstrated at the cross by Christ’s atonement.
Maybe that is why there is so much anger and violence and honor killings in the Muslim world (not all Muslims, but there is a dominant tendency of this stuff) and constant cries to justice and constant victim mentality and blaming others for their own internal problems in their own countries. (bad leaders, violence, anger, civil wars, dictators, poverty vs. rich Saudis and Kuwaitis resented by the rest of the Muslims, and even if Israel does some wrong things, the countries around Israel don’t let the Palestinians become citizens – they have kept them in refugee camps as political footballs for decades, etc.)
LikeLike
Ken, your ludicrous claims have been refuted before. Allah is forgiving and just at the same time. Therefore, those who deserve forgiveness will be forgiven. Those who deserve justice will be punished. It’s really not that difficult to understand, unless of course, you are a Christian who goes around judging people because he has the “holy spirit”, a claim that cannot be proven.
You talk about “assurance”, but you don’t realize that just because you are given an “assurance”, it does not mean you don’t have anything to worry about. It reminds me of a scene in the Chris Farley movie “Tommy Boy”:
So you see, just giving “assurances” or “guarantees” doesn’t really mean anything. The one who makes those assurances may just be a “crazy glue-sniffer”. 😉
In Islam, we are taught to remain hopeful of God’s mercy, to trust in Him. That is true faith, not the “faith by assurance” that your religion teaches.
LikeLike
Faiz,
Do you know for sure you will go to heaven when you die?
Why or why not?
LikeLike
Human guarantees are always fallible, but since God is infallible and trustworthy, His promises of forgiveness and eternal life are sure and guaranteed.
John 5:24
LikeLike
If you use Matthew 9:13, quoting Hosea 6:6, you have to realize the historical background that God was rebuking apostate Israel for just doing the rituals without repentance. The verse does not mean that Jesus discounts the sacrificial system that was set up by God in the first place, (In Genesis 3, Genesis 22; Exodus, Leviticus, Kings, etc.), rather it means God desires true repentance in the heart along with the sacrificial system.
And you cannot use Matthew 9:13 or 6:9-14 or 18 without Matthew 1:21; 5:20 and 7:11 and 8:17. the healing of the sick people means spiritual healing for their sin, which the quote from Isaiah 53 points to; and Jesus’ willingness to eat with sinners and tax collectors because they were repentant and realized their sins, whereas the Pharisees and other Jews did not realize their sins and thought they were righteous.
so, Paul Williams, you totally missed the point of all those passages you used above.
LikeLike
And you Paul W. were already refuted on your take on Luke 18. a long time ago.
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2013/02/18/refuting-paul-bilal-williams-on-luke-18-and-the-doctrine-of-justification/
LikeLike
Ken Temple
You said;
The view of Islam is a denigration of God’s holy justice against sin.
You cannot know if God really forgives you, because deep down you know you have some secret sins and you have not assurance that Allah will accept you on the day of judgment, because it is “Enshall’allah” ( If God wills) – he can reject you if He wants to and we have no right to question. There is no assurance of peace or forgiveness in Islam.
Whereas in Christianity, both Divine justice and mercy/forgiveness/love is demonstrated at the cross by Christ’s atonement.
Maybe that is why there is so much anger and violence and honor killings in the Muslim world (not all Muslims, but there is a dominant tendency of this stuff) and constant cries to justice and constant victim mentality and blaming others for their own internal problems in……………………..
I say;
What is the proof you have that God has really forgiven you? Proof please. If you cant give proof then you lied. InshaAllah is not to make us arrogant and leave God to be the final judge. We are not arrogant to force God to forgive us unless He does it at His own time and discretion.
Assurance, assurance, assurance, assurance. Assurance is nothing and it can be a lie. Assurance is belief and every religion believes it is right when the person does right but if the person does wrong it will be satanic to be assured heaven unless sincere repentance.
No one is assured unless assured and it means unless you go to heaven and back with pictures you cannot claim you have a ticked to heaven. You do not have a proof for any assurance.
You keep bringing Middle Eastern Jahiliya tendencies to Islam and it is unfortunate. The people of Middle East and Arabia were cruel to themselves before Islam and they call it the Jahiliya period. All these honour killings and what and what is not Islamic and is pre-Islamic.
I can also say the killing of women in and burning them as witches in Christian countries was the result of cruel God crucifying his Son Jesus Christ and blah blah blah without reason.
At the cross we see unforgiveness and merciless torture of Jesus Christ. This can not be justice, mercy or forgiveness. Mercy and Forgiveness cancels all these mercilessness on Jesus Christ. Mercilessness on Jesus Christ is not Mercy.
If you God love you and came down as a man, Hindu and Rastafarians God also loves them and came down as a man and cow to love them. You all believe in God incarnation and coming down as a creature to love you and that is idolatry. Trinitarians and Hindus and idol worshipers say common ideas of God becoming a creature to love them.
Thanks.
LikeLiked by 1 person
The proof is in the promises of Jesus all through the gospels and NT, through the writings of His apostles.
Mark 10:45
Matthew 20:28
Luke 24:44-49
John 5:24
John 20:30-31
John 11:25
I John 5:13
Ephesians 1:3-14
John 14:27
Matthew 11:28-30
LikeLike
The people of Middle East and Arabia were cruel to themselves before Islam and they call it the Jahiliya period. All these honour killings and what and what is not Islamic and is pre-Islamic.
why do so many Muslims keep on doing it then?
Jahiliya means ignorance. The epoch of Jahiliya has passed when Islam came, according to Islam.
Muslims are taught their religion, so why do so many continue to do that?
LikeLike
Ken Temple
Why do many Christians continue to be Unitarian Christians after the Arians where crushed by the Trinitarians?
Why are so many Christians continue to persecute everyone including themselves until the freedom of religion was forced on them?
Why will Donald Trump and his Christian supporters want to return to the slave time and take their Country back and deport everybody except who the like?
You did not give me any proof or evidence that you have been the heaven and back with pictures to prove except the say your God promised you. Every religion has its God promising heaven to its followers. That is not proof. You have no proof.
I do not believe your God who is Jesus Christ, so you cannot force him on me as a proof of guarantee and so you do no have proof of being saved or going to heaven.
Thanks
LikeLike
God promised in His word, that is proof. The other stuff you talk about history and jump to modern day and has no connection.
LikeLike
“the period of Jahiliya جهالیه or جهل / ignorance” that means after Islam came, you have knowledge.
We have that in Farsi also, comes from the same root, written this way in Farsi, جهالت
So why do so many people act against their knowledge?
LikeLike
Why do many Christians continue to be Unitarian Christians after Trinity was revealed to them?
Why do the Church Pastors like Eddie Lee Long, Jimmy Swaggart etc. and the Church Fathers continue to be sex offenders after the truth against that was revealed to them.
Thanks.
LikeLike
“Church Fathers” = who are you talking about? Roman Catholic priests? (some of them have been doing that)
Yes, those and others like Eddie Long, etc. are shameful examples of people who claim to be believers, but who are not. Their theology was heretical before they were exposed in their immorality – they believe in positive confession and automatic health and wealth and that people are “little gods” and can create wealth and health and success by saying words. Heretics.
“those who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
Galatians 5:19-22
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions,
21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
But you still didn’t answer why so many Muslims continue to do honor killings, if that was part of Jahiliye, the period of ignorance and idolatry before Muhammad. Muhammad brought knowledge and light to those cultures. why don’t they use the knowledge and light that they have?
Christianity can answer the problem with our holy book and theology, because people are sinful and selfish by nature and there are many who claim to be believers, but they are not. Sin is deep in the heart.
but islam has no deep theology of sin. Sin is mostly an external action against society; a very shallow understanding of sin.
LikeLike
Ken said:
“Do you know for sure you will go to heaven when you die?
Why or why not?”
You still don’t get it, do you? Knowing for “sure” is not possible for humans. Only God knows who will go to heaven and who will go to hell, because only God has infinite knowledge. It is very arrogant of Christians to assume that they will go to heaven and everyone else will go to hell, just because their scripture gives them that “assurance”. But what good is that “assurance” if it was given by an unreliable source (i.e. the Bible)?
To answer your question, I know that if I remain a Muslim, then Allah (Glorified and Exalted be He) promises Paradise to me. But I cannot say for “sure” that I will always remain a Muslim, because I don’t know for “sure” what my destiny is. I might be one of those people, God forbid, who lives as a Muslim for most of my life but then by my own actions become an unbeliever at the end. This is highly unlikely, because I am secure in my faith, but the point is that I cannot know for “sure” what the future holds. Only Allah knows.
Any ideology which tries to give you “assurances” is not to be trusted. Just because your Bible gives you a “guarantee”, I have no reason to believe it. It is an unreliable book, as any objective researcher will tell you. For all you know, the Bible could have been written by “crazy glue-sniffers”. What good is a “guarantee” from such people?
“Human guarantees are always fallible, but since God is infallible and trustworthy, His promises of forgiveness and eternal life are sure and guaranteed.
John 5:24”
Irrelevant, and nothing more than a circular argument. You haven’t proven that the Bible is God’s word and thus cannot prove that the “promises” and “guarantees” are worth anything. I don’t put much stock in the promises of a false book with a checkered history of editing. I don’t know why you put such faith in such a book. A religion which offers “faith by assurance” is not the true religion, because any one can make guarantees.
LikeLike
Even the Qur’an claims that the NT and OT are God’s word. Surah 5:46-47; 10:94; 2:136; 29:46
LikeLike
Lol, you got cornered as usual and decided to deflect on your previously refuted last resort argument which is that the Quran confirms the Bible. Regardless of your red herring, the Bible’s claims of “guarantees” cannot be proven. Using the Bible to prove the Bible is not a logical argument. It might influence the feeble-minded like a Jedi mindtrick, but this childish argument will not influence those who use their God-given reason. Glue-sniffers may be impressed but not us normal people. Sorry… 😉
LikeLike
lol, no, I did not get cornered. don’t know how you came up that. God is true and faithful to His promises and He promises eternal life to those that repent and trust in Christ.
John 5:24 Jesus Al Masih عیسی المسیح said:
“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.”
“come to Me and I will give you peace and rest; you shall find rest for your souls. . . ” see Matthew 11:28-30
“Peace I give to you, My peace I give to you, not as the world gives do I give to you; let not your heart be troubled, nor let it be afraid.” John 14:27
Jesus Al Masih made those promises.
LikeLike
LOL, still not getting it! Quoting your Bible doesn’t prove anything, you dolt! What are you not getting?
Your Bible makes alot of promises, but giving empty promises doesn’t mean anything if the book making such promises is unreliable and untrustworthy in the first place.
LikeLike
Ken Temple
Stop this childish of my Bible said this or that to as a proof for your assurance for anyone to accept. That is not proof. Hindus and voodoo priests and their worshipers too have assurance from their scripture to go to heaven. Will you agree that Hindus, voodoos, idol worshiper are assured and guaranteed they will be saved because their scripture and themselves claim so?
If you will not accept that as a proof then do not expect us to accept “we are guaranteed and have assurance to go to heaven” which is unproven and lies. Give me your pictures swimming with angels in heaven and that is proof. You do not have that and cannot have that except to lie and you know this blog will not accept that bullshit.
I apologised for the bullshit a couple of days ago. This bullshit I will not apologise and I stand by it because you do not have the proof except to say “my religion said I have assurance” which is nonsense and bullshit and I will not apologise because I will not tell you that my religion is the only assurance to heaven.
Some months back you accepted it is nonsense to say you have assurance without proof.
Thanks.
LikeLike
The Scriptures (the Bible = Old Testament and New Testament, or Torah, Zobur, and Injeel) are God’s Word.
God cannot lie – Titus 1:2
The Scriptures therefore do not lie.
Therefore, they are trustworthy, because they are God’s Word.
You cannot call that “Bull-s — t” because the Qur’an confirms the previous Scriptures as God’s Word, as revelation that was “send down” to the prophets from God.
Surah 5:47; 10:94; 2:136; 29:46
LikeLike
You don’t have the Original Scriptures. That’s why you need al Qur’an.
LikeLiked by 1 person
“God cannot lie – Titus 1:2
The Scriptures therefore do not lie.
Therefore, they are trustworthy, because they are God’s Word.”
This is deeply ironic. Most New Testament scholars rightly conclude that Titus was not actually written by Paul – ie it is a forgery.
Also NOWHERE does the Bible say the New Testament (ie the books from Matthew to Revelation) are “God’s Word” or “Scripture”.
That is just “Bull-s — t”
LikeLiked by 1 person
Liberal, anti-supernaturalist scholars. Not believing scholars.
It is not a forgery.
We know Matthew to Revelation (27 books of NT) is all Scripture, God-breathed, because of the internal qualities of supernatural origin and the self-attesting doctrine and harmony with what Jesus said about His own word and the apostles who would be led into all the truth by the Holy Spirit, who guided them to write the rest of the word.
John 16:12-13
I have many more things to reveal to you . . .
When the Spirit comes, He will guide you into all the truth . . .
and
“men spoke from God carried along by the Holy Spirit” 2 Peter 1:20-21
“all Scripture is God-breathed” 2 Tim. 3:16
Includes NT also; 2 Tim. 3:15 is about OT and then verse 16 expands it to all Scripture. Puts OT and NT on same level as Scripture – 1 Tim. 5:18 and all of Paul’s letters are Scripture with the OT – 2 Peter 3:16
And Qur’an affirms the NT – the people of the gospel of Muhammad’s day agreed on the NT and OT. Surah 5:47
You are calling Surah 5:47 and 10:94 “bull-s–t”
estaqtr’allah !
استغفرالله
LikeLike
Ken you wheel out the same old rubbish about scholars who disagree with you being “anti-supernaturalist scholars. Not believing scholars” yet I can name world class top evangelical scholars who agree with me not you. Professor Richard Bauckham argues that 2 Peter was not actually written by the apostle Peter even though 2 Peter says it is by Peter! Is Richard Bauckham an “anti-supernaturalist scholar. Not believing a scholar”?
LOL of course not.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Yet Bauckham believes Jesus was claiming to be God in Mark 10 – “if you are willing to call Me good, then you should be willing to call me God”.
Bauckham believes Peter to be behind the contents of 2 Peter, just written by a disciple of Peter.
Jude probably wrote it, after Peter dictated it to him.
Bauckham still believes in Deity of Christ, the Trinity, the cross, atonement, resurrection, and that John’s content in the Gospel of John was from eyewitness testimony.
LikeLike
The Islamic view of the Jewish and Christian Bibles:
Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461:
Narrated Ubaidullah:
Ibn ‘Abbas said, “Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah’s Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, ‘It is from Allah,’ to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!”
http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/092-sbt.php
LikeLiked by 1 person
No scholars look to the islamic sources as a means of establishing the historicity of the old and new testaments. they just are not taken seriously as sources to shed light on 1st century christian or jewish history or beliefs.
In short, what the quran says about jewish beliefs and scriptures is completely irrelevant to jews and christians.
LikeLike
It is completely relevant that Biblical scholarship affirms the Muslim view of Jewish/Christian scriptures
LikeLike
It’s relevant that you believe that because it shows that you are gullible. But no serious biblical scholar agrees with you. Show me one biblical scholar, archaeologist, or jewish scholar who has proven that jews ever worshiped ezra as the son of god.
As for quranic views of christianity – it doesn’t even get jesus’ name right, let alone identify him as a 1st century jew.
LikeLike
“We know Matthew to Revelation (27 books of NT) is all Scripture,..” We don’t know that.
You believe that. Stop deceiving Temple.
LikeLiked by 1 person
That Hadith contradicts Surah 5:47 and 10:94
No wonder the “Qur’an Only” movement started, as they were ambarressed about the Shatan farting Hadith, and so, that Hadith does not deal with Surah 5:47 or 10:94.
The verses it quotes from are not talking about the true Scriptures, but about false ones and false interpretations.
Muhammad was confused and quoted from false gospels, apocryphal and gnostic texts, that have info from them in the Qur’an – like Jesus speaking from cradle and making clay birds – from Gnostic Infancy gospel; and also quoted from legends – the legend of the Sleepers in the cave – a totally unreliable legend written centuries after the NT.
LikeLike
Ironic that Biblical scholarship affirms my view of Jewish/Christian scriptures not yours.
LikeLiked by 1 person
“That Hadith contradicts Surah 5:47 and 10:94”
merely a missionary claim. Prove it.
LikeLike
Even you proved it by your conversation with an Islamic scholar. (Abdel Haleem)
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2014/03/the-uncorrupted-injeel.html
LikeLike
“According to PW [ Paul Williams] , world-renowned Islamic scholar Abdel Haleem confirmed for him in a phone conversation one of the two claims that Christians often make regarding the Bible. In the view of Professor Haleem, the Qur’an does NOT teach that the Bible was corrupted. Instead, it teaches that the Bible has been misinterpreted. Prof. Haleem’s statements in this connection, as PW says, “put Muslim apologist Bassam Zawadi (who has argued many times for the view that the Quran teaches textual corruption) in the wrong.” This, as PW also says, serves to “vindicate the oft-stated views of Sam Shamoun and David Wood.”
from the article linked above. I remember that also; I am a witness to that also.
LikeLike
So what? That does NOT mean as you and Sam mistakenly believe, that the Quran says the Christian New Testament is the Injil. Obviously not possible. When will you learn Ken?
The Quran acknowledges that the gospel of Jesus is to be found in the existing gospels but is not coterminous with it. Christians are called by God in his final Testament to mankind to judge what they believe by the gospel *of* Jesus, and this teaching is confirmed by the Quran. The Quran also corrects the mis-interpretations by Christians who wrongly believe Jesus is God. Jesus bears witness in the Quran that he is just a man.
Clearly the four gospels are not the Injil. They make claims (eg about the crucifixion) that God has made clear are quite unhistorical. The Quran suggests that the ‘Gospel’ (Injil) is something given to Jesus by God (surah 5:46). So it is evident that in the Qur’an the divine Gospel was one revealed to Jesus and not books written about Jesus.
Montgomery Watt (who was Professor in Arabic and Islamic studies at the University of Edinburgh, and one of the foremost non-Muslim interpreters of Islam in the West) wrote:
“While it is stated that Jesus received from God a scripture called the Gospel (or Evangel – Injil), there is nothing to suggest that this was any more like our actual gospels in the New Testament than the tawrat received by Moses was like the actual Pentateuch. Indeed Muslims usually deny that our actual gospels are the book received by Jesus, since that consisted entirely of revelations from God and not of historical statements about Jesus.”
[William Montgomery Watt, Muslim-Christian Encounters. Perceptions And Misperceptions, Routledge, 1991, p. 24
I also refer you to the interesting discussion about the gospels/Injil in The Study Quran, surah 3: 3-4.
LikeLiked by 1 person
yes it does. The whole NT is confirmed and proven to be God’s word for centuries before the Qur’an and Muhammad. Most of it was already quoted and affirmed by 180-200 AD by Irenaeus and Tertullian, and a lot of it was quoted by Justin Martyr in 150 AD and some of it was quoted and used by smaller letters Clement ( 96 AD) and Ignatius (110 AD) and Polycarp. (150 AD). Papias is very early also, around 120-130 AD.
LikeLike
“The whole NT is confirmed and proven to be God’s word for centuries before the Qur’an and Muhammad.”
But the NT itself (Matt to Rev) does NOT claim this exalted status you choose to give it.
What historical evidence do you have that shows the New Testament canon (Matthew through to Revelation) existed in Timothy’s childhood?
LikeLike
Paul Williams
You are being disingenuous. No skeptical liberal biblical scholar that questions the credibility of the bible would ever conclude that this proves the quran’s false theological teachings.
You are begging the question by appealing to the quran as the “word of god” to make your case. There are far too many reasons to view the quran as entirely the work of men, and no one has made an even remotely convincing case that the quran came from a divine source.
LikeLike
“all Scripture is God-breathed” 2 Tim. 3:16
Includes NT also; 2 Tim. 3:15 is about OT and then verse 16 expands it to all Scripture. Puts OT and NT on same level as Scripture”
Paul’s Charge to Timothy verses 16-17:
“But as for you, continue in what you have learned and firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it, 15 and how from childhood you have known the sacred writings that are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is inspired by God and is[b] useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that everyone who belongs to God may be proficient, equipped for every good work.”
So Paul exhorts Timothy to remain true to the “sacred writings” that he know in childhood.
Let us assume 1 Tim was written by Paul in AD 60. Timothy is an adult now say at least 20 years old (though maybe a lot older).
Paul refers to the Scriptures Tim knew as a child so that would takes us back to the years 45- 50 AD or earlier.
Ken what historical evidence do you have that shows the New Testament canon (Matthew through to Revelation) existed in Timothy’s childhood?
LikeLike
I am not claiming that; I am only claiming that Paul is expanding what God-breathed Scripture is to NT writings that are extant at the time – which includes all his previous letters and the synoptic gospels – which he quoted in 1 Timothy 5:18.
By principle, this will include other NT letters being written around the same time (67 AD – Hebrews, 2 Peter) and John’s Gospel and writings ( 3 letters and Revelation) and the book of Jude.
Jude 3 says the faith was once for all time delivered to the saints, which seems to point to the completion of revelation.
LikeLike
Burhanuddin
How is 2 timothy a forgery?
LikeLike
I just saw that you made the same point I did about Paul citing Luke 10:7 in 1 Timothy 5:18.
LikeLike
2 Timothy was probably written in 66 AD, before he was executed by Nero in 67 AD.
I Timothy was written before then.
I Timothy 5:18 quotes from the Torah and Luke 10 and Matthew 10 and calls those NT passages “Scripture”, on the same par as the Torah (quote from Deuteronomy).
Therefore 2 Tim. 3:16 includes the New Testament also.
verse 15, “from childhood” is about the OT, but then in verse 16, he expands it to “all Scripture”.
LikeLike
2 Timothy is most probably a forgery.
LikeLike
no; it is not a forgery. Get George Knight’s commentary on the Pastoral Epistles and learn and digest.
LikeLike
“all Scripture” would include all books of the septuagint which you reject as “Scripture”. LOL.
LikeLike
nope; because no NT writer quoted from OT apocrypha books. (the ones that the Roman Catholic Church declared canonical at the council of Trent in the 1500s)
boom!
LikeLike
Yes 2 Timothy is most probably a forgery.
LikeLiked by 1 person
no
LikeLike
“all Scripture is God-breathed” 2 Tim. 3:16
Enoch is referred to as a historical person and prophet, and quoted, in Jude 1:14–15.
The Book of Enoch it is now regarded as scripture by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and the Eritrean Orthodox Church.
The Book of Enoch was considered as scripture in the Epistle of Barnabas and by many of the early Church Fathers, such as Athenagoras,Clement of Alexandria,Irenaeus and Tertullian.
boomshakalacka!
LikeLiked by 1 person
Ken, bless him, does not know much about the history of the Biblical canons. Has to be schooled by Muslims.
LikeLike
The author of the Qur’an was massively ignorant about the previous Scriptures and history; we have to school you and all of Islam, which denies established history. You don’t school me; it is you who distort and twist history and ignore believing scholarship.
LikeLike
Ken you have been schooled many times on this blog over the years: we have cited your very own evangelical scholars (like Richard Bauckham) who have refute your fundamentalism. Invincible ignorance.
LikeLike
and you also; since you don’t agree with your own Islamic scholar, Abdel Haleem.
You are a fundamentalist Muslim, since you believe in the Qur’an as Allah’s eternal word, the prophethood of Muhammad, and Hadith, and the orthodox Sunni doctrine. You Fundamentalist Muslim you.
Bauckham believes Jesus is claiming to be God in Mark 10 – deal with that.
LikeLike
Burhanuddin1
“2 Timothy is most probably a forgery.”
What criteria have been used to determine that 2 tim is a forgery?
LikeLike
“The author of the Qur’an was massively ignorant about the previous Scriptures and history;”
Poor Ken getting desperate. A few minutes ago he claimed that the author of the Qur’an confirmed the Bible as God’s unchanged Word.
Muuaaahahhhaaa. Ouch.
LikeLiked by 1 person
The author of the Qur’an confirmed the NT and was ignorant of the contents, since he denies the crucifixion and the Deity of Christ, and adds legends and apocryphal gospels, and thinks Shaytan can fart, etc. superstitious person.
LikeLike
Double ouch! Poor Ken 😉
LikeLike
Ken Temple, it is obvious you are not interested in truth, just in spreading your missionary ideology.
Sorry, you are unbelievable, Mr. Wannabe-Missionary.
LikeLiked by 1 person
burhanuddin
Why won’t you answer my question about 2 timothy?
LikeLiked by 1 person
Ken, to further prove that 2 Timothy 3:15-17 is not limited to the OT, Paul in 1 Timothy 5:18 cites Luke 10:7 along with Deuteronomy 25:4 and calls Luke’s Gospel Scripture and places it on the same level of authority with Moses’ writings. The reason why Paul quoted Luke’s Gospel is because 2 Timothy 4:11 shows that Luke was with Paul during that time, and therefore it only makes sense that the blessed Apostle would quote his companion’s inspired Gospel.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Yes, I agree; I mentioned that also earlier. Thanks for confirmation.
LikeLike
Oh Jammy Sammy – you just don’t get it. The New Testament canon stretches alllll the way from the Gospel of Matthew to the Book of Revelation – 27 books in total. Even if we accept your dodgy argument that still leaves us with 90% of the NT that is not described anywhere as the Word of God or Scripture.
A nasty DOUBLE OUCH!
LikeLike
George Knight’s excellent commentary on the Pastoral Epistles:
https://www.amazon.com/Pastoral-Epistles-International-Testament-Commentary/dp/0802871410
search for William Hendrickson’s commentary also – excellent, older.
LikeLike
Even the book of Maccabees itself admitted that it was not a prophetic book and that prophesy had ceased at the time of Artexexes’ rule in Persia over the Jews – the time when the last books of OT were written – Nehemiah, Malachi and Chronicles.
The Jews have always had that opinion about their TaNaKh. Chronicles is the last book in the Hebrew Bible.
Jesus affirmed this also in Luke 11:51-52 – “from the blood of Abel (Genesis) to the blood of Zechariah the priest (killed in Chronicles).
Josephus Against Apion 1:8 confirmed this.
Jerome also confirmed that around 390-400 AD.
Jesus, the Jews, Josephus and Jerome are on our side.
Boom!!
LikeLike
“all Scripture is God-breathed” 2 Tim. 3:16
Enoch is referred to as a historical person and prophet, and quoted, in Jude 1:14–15.
The Book of Enoch it is now regarded as scripture by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and the Eritrean Orthodox Church.
The Book of Enoch was considered as scripture in the Epistle of Barnabas and by many of the early Church Fathers, such as Athenagoras,Clement of Alexandria,Irenaeus and Tertullian.
boomshakalacka!
LikeLiked by 1 person
No; the book of Enoch was never a part of the OT Apocrypha, although it is alluded to in Jude 1:14-15. That only means that part of it was true.
Those churches later added that, based on Jude’s use of it, yes; I know that.
LikeLike
“all Scripture is God-breathed” 2 Tim. 3:16
Jude considers it God-breathed Scripture. The early Church Fathers did. But Ken Temple knows better. Sorry, you are unbelievable, Mr. Wannabe-Missionary.
LikeLike
Jude quotes one truth / prophesy from the book of Enoch; he does not say the whole book was “God-breathed”.
Sorry, I am already a missionary and been one since beginning training in 1983 and tested in a local church, seminary (1983-1988) and officially ordained in 1990 by a counsel of elders of a Baptist Church and send out officially.
And been making friends with many Muslims from many countries since 1983 – playing soccer (the true football), drinking coffee and tea, etc. and eating lots of great food from wonderful Muslims from Lebanon, Palestinians, Egypt, Morocco, Iran, Turkey, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan. Met many others from Syria, Jordan, Libya, Algeria, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Indonesia, Malaysia) Ate meals in their homes, and they in my home. The only Muslims who never wanted to talk were Saudi Arabians – they were closed to listen, unfortunately.
All the other Muslims were wonderful hosts and friendly and we had great conversations over the years; even though we disagree on things.
Many Muslims have said to me, “thank you Mr. Ken for being up front and honest about your beliefs, you don’t try to run and hide from the Trinity or Deity of Christ like other Christians do”
“and thank you for defending your own faith and not being afraid and being serious about hell and what you believe; even though we don’t agree.”
LikeLike
So what. The most favorite word of many missionaries is “I”. When everything fails they start telling their “successful” life story. It’s irrelevant, get it?
Atheists are nice people and have friends too, so what?
LikeLike
And I spent a lot of time with a Tunisian Muslim in 1986 in New York city and he accepted that Jesus was the Son of God, God the Son after 2 months of witnessing to him and watching the Jesus film in Arabic.
We watched the Jesus film in Arabic, which takes 2 hours, but he kept asking me to stop the film and show him where that was in the New Testament in Arabic. It took us 6 hours to get through the 2 hour film, with much discussion and questions and answers. I learned how to find the verses, learned the names of books in Arabic and the numbers to find the verses.
LikeLike
You will have to pay for your deceptions one day.
LikeLiked by 2 people
We can honestly disagree with one another about the truth of our religion without accusing the other of “deception”. That is not good Da’awa – see Surah 29:46 – do not argue with the people of the Scripture except in a beautiful and good method (Hasan, Hosn حسن – you should obey that verse.
LikeLike
Ken as a practiced deceiver you misquote the verse – which really does apply to you:
“And do not argue with the People of the Scripture except in a way that is best, except for those who commit injustice among them, and say, “We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you. And our God and your God is one; and we are Muslims to Him.”
And deception against Muslims and others is certainly an injustice.
LikeLike
how did I misquote it? I included the relevant parts from memory.
LikeLike
I was not deliberately trying to decieve, I just wrote from memory, but thanks for the entire verse. Of course I don’t believe I have done an injustice and have sought to treat all of you fairly and I don’t give insults back or ad hominem when you guys attack me with charges of deception or name calling. If you think defending the Christian faith is an injustice, then by the same standards, you do injustice by defending Islam and your constant attack on the Bible.
LikeLike
I look forward to you condemning your pal Sam whom you so admire.
But you never do. Telling.
LikeLike
Well, I have finished seminary and training a long time ago, and was officially recognized by a local church, and sent out a long time ago.
That’s ok if you don’t care and say “so what?”; I understand that you don’t care and think it is irrelevant.
That is your freedom. I am only showing that I was officially sent out as a missionary a long time, and I do have experience with Muslims as people and I care about them as people; and I have had good relations with them; and I don’t agree with some who are angry at all Muslims and I don’t agree with lumping all Muslims as terrorists or Jihadists, etc.
LikeLike
How is honestly looking at the text of the New Testament, and watching the Jesus film and answering questions, “deceptions” ??
LikeLike
You do not tell the truth. You tell your opinion and sell it as fact. A Jesus film is interpretation, cherrypicking Bible verses is interpretation. But you don’t say that. You sell it as “Gospel truth”. Although you know better.
That’s deception, kufr.
LikeLike
The Jesus film is a straight translation of the Gospel according to Luke, into Arabic and Farsi and Turkish and many other languages.
LikeLike
Ken Temple
With all your years of experience and money spent to travel in most of the majority Muslim countries, you only converted 1 Muslim? That is bad missionary mission. It shows how missionaries are spending a lot of money to target and try to convert vulnerable Muslims like women, children and the youth in refugee camp.
They fail because they never convert anyone except few who are vulnerable and do not know Islam in the first place. Saudi Muslims knows their religion very well like we know our religion on this blog, that is why Ken fears to approach them.
The missionaries always target the vulnerable like they will embed themselves in the US army in Afghanistan, Iraq etc. to take advantage of the war situation. That is why the evangelical voted for Bush/Blair war and it is widely believed they want to use the war advantage to try to convert Muslims. Getting to 20 years now Afghanistan, Iraq and all middle east are majority Muslims.
Christian missionaries failed big time with all these money, resources, time, lies, deception etc.
No one is doing all this missionary work for Islam except Allah and few dollars from Saudi Arabia and some gulf state. The contribute few of their dollars for Dawah but Islam is one of the fastest growing religions in the world. Ken Temple has managed to covert only one Muslim from his missionary work in the 1980’s when I was in high school.
I converted many on this blog including Mr. Henry(Marvin Henry(anon)) from Trinity to Unitarian. I do not have money to go to the majority Christian countries like I will convert more Trinitarians.
Thanks.
LikeLike
God is the one who changes the heart; we just share the message.
Many Iranians have turned from Islam to Christ; I just did not mention them.
I don’t take credit for it; I am just a slave, a servant of God. God uses His Word. I have met other Arabs who have converted to Christ also. Just because I only mentioned one does not mean that there are not others. And I have met several Turks also who have turned away from Islam to Christ.
LikeLike
Many estimates on the Iranian situation; many have said this – that more Iranians have turned away from Islam to Christ as their Savior and Lord in the last 37 years than in all previous history. I know of probably over 300 of them.
LikeLike
Ken Temple
Iran and the Middle East still remain Muslim majority countries despite the money and resources you missionaries spent there. Christians like Paul Williams, Dr. Jerald Dirks(Masters of Divinity), Gary Miller a Mathematician and a Christian scholar, Yusuf Estes, Dr. Ingrid Matson, Dr. Abdullah Kunde whose Christian name was Christian, Imam John Ederer, Imam Timothy Humble, Imam Suhaib Webb, Imam Joe Bradford and many more without any much dawah have converted to Islam and are learned in both faith and are active in spreading the message of Islam.
All those Iranian estimates is a Christians estimates and they are not visible like the above Christian converts to Islam.
Thanks.
LikeLike
Moving the goal posts from
“ha! only 1 !”
to when I answer:
“over 300”
“Iran and the Middle still remain Muslim . . . ”
That was funny “Intellect”.
Your “intellect” is frying.
LikeLike
Ken Temple
I do no believe you converted the 1 Muslim you said. I was just granting you the benefit of the doubt to engage in brainstorming. You do not have evidence. In Islam anything on this earth is proof and evidence. If a lady says someone has raped her she has to provide the proof before the person is punished other wise Allah will punish the person who raped her at His own time.
I provided a proof of whom I converted from Trinitarian to Unitarian Christian who is Marvin Henry and forcing you Ken to accept Jesus the Son do not possess all the attributes of the Father and forced madmanna to challenge you in that God generating Jesus another God is polytheism.
I also provided the names of active Christian coverts to Islam who have learnt the Islamic religion and are Imams and some of them with masters of divinity(Christian) credentials. You never showed of any single Muslim you converted except to estimate 1, 300 etc. that are not proof like your assurance and guaranteed saving by Jesus Christ cannot be proven except trying to force your scripture on us. Visit heaven and back with pictures of you and angel Gabriel. That is what is considered as proof and not your scripture. You will not believe my scripture or any scripture guarantee and assurance and so how o you want me to believe your scripture as a guarantee and assurance to heaven?
Thanks,
LikeLike
As I already wrote; only God can convert a soul on the inside; He just uses us and the message. I am His servant; I never converted anyone. But God has used me for His glory to speak the message of truth and peace with Muslims and some Muslims, mostly Iranians, and that Tunisian man, have come to Christ; and I have taught and discipled others in the Faith. A man from Syria and a man from Lebanon – they already converted to Christ and came to me for teaching and it was a great privilege to teach them the truths of the gospel and the Bible.
LikeLike
The Jesus film that has been translated into many languages. The first 8 minutes are an introduction and summary from Genesis and the prophets and the rest is straight from the Gospel according to Luke.
LikeLike
It seems even when a Christian seeks to be fair and reasonable and not do name calling, etc. ; you guys still unfairly attack. O well.
LikeLike
Ken said:
“As I already wrote; only God can convert a soul on the inside; He just uses us and the message. I am His servant; I never converted anyone. But God has used me for His glory to speak the message of truth and peace with Muslims and some Muslims, mostly Iranians, and that Tunisian man, have come to Christ; and I have taught and discipled others in the Faith. A man from Syria and a man from Lebanon – they already converted to Christ and came to me for teaching and it was a great privilege to teach them the truths of the gospel and the Bible.”
Aw, that’s so touching and impressive…NOT! Firs of all, ignorant people convert to Christianity. Most of them never do any serious research. They convert for personal or emotional reasons.
Second, recent scientific studies done on the matter of religious “switching” have shown that Christianity loses far more people than it gains. So, apparently God has been struggling to convert people or keep them locked in the intellectual abyss of Christianity.
http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/religious-projections-2010-2050/pf_15-04-02_projectionsoverview_religiousswitching_640px/
Christianity loses over 100 million followers to other religions/ideologies. That’s amazing!
LikeLike