Are we filthy before God?

 

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Some Christians claim God is so holy, He cannot tolerate the presence of someone “tainted with sin”.

But:

“One cannot logically believe that Jesus was God, that God cannot abide the presence of sinners, and that Jesus embraced, touched and loved sinners in his presence.”

Davis D. Danizier, “Bloody Human Sacrifice Atonement Mythology”



Categories: Islam

25 replies

  1. But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even look up to heaven, but was beating his breast and saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his home justified rather than the other; for all who exalt themselves will be humbled, but all who humble themselves will be exalted.”
    – Jesus

    Liked by 3 people

  2. This is a bit embarrassing. It is humans and sin that cannot tolerate god’s purity. You’ve got it backwards.

    This is really lousy dawah, I’m afraid. If god can tolerate human sin, then he can tolerate human incarnation. How do you balance the contradiction in dawahs?

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    • God forgives man his sins if he sincerely repents and had done this since the time of Adam, therefore the incarnation as an idea is rendered impotent. Read Chapter 9 of the Qur’an especially the section concerning the hypocrites and the campaign of Tabuk.

      Muhammad is found to be praying for their forgiveness but God rejects such a request for they have no desire to be forgiven, but if they are then there is a way to do so:

      Ask forgiveness for them, [O Muhammad], or do not ask forgiveness for them. If you should ask forgiveness for them seventy times – never will Allah forgive them. That is because they disbelieved in Allah and His Messenger, and Allah does not guide the defiantly disobedient people. – Qur’an 9: 80

      And [there are] others who have acknowledged their sins. They had mixed a righteous deed with another that was bad. Perhaps Allah will turn to them in forgiveness. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.Take, [O, Muhammad], from their wealth a charity by which you purify them and cause them increase, and invoke [ Allah ‘s blessings] upon them. Indeed, your invocations are reassurance for them. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.Do they not know that it is Allah who accepts repentance from His servants and receives charities and that it is Allah who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful? – Qur’an 9: 102-104

      Liked by 1 person

    • Patrice

      There are no reasons to view the quran as the truth, so quoting it does not help. Sins have to be paid for, injustice has to be corrected. Simply forgiving sins does not do that, so allah is an imperfect being and therefore cannot be god.

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    • I’m sorry but you have failed utterly to respond to my comment. You’ve missed entirely the point of forgiveness through repentance (something Jesus himself taught, as per my quote above from Luke) as well as the consistent Jewish testimony of Gods mercy.

      The Qur’an is very important to refer to due to it being consistent with the teaching of Jesus, do you disagree that Jesus taught this?

      Finally forgiveness by definition means that punishment is unnecessary, if it were not so then there would be no need to forgive since the ‘debt’ has been paid in full. What would be the point in that?

      Liked by 1 person

    • Patrice

      I think you missed the point of my comment! Forgiveness is only half of the picture – it has to be accompanied by atonement, the righting of injustice. Forgiveness without administering justice makes allah unjust.

      The quran tells us absolutely nothing about jesus’ life and no legitimate scholar refers to it to assess his ministry.

      “Finally forgiveness by definition means that punishment is unnecessary, if it were not so then there would be no need to forgive since the ‘debt’ has been paid in full. What would be the point in that?”

      The point is that allah must be unjust by nature if allows sin and injustice to go without payment. The question is how can god be just and forgiving and the answer is through jesus.

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    • “If god can tolerate human sin, then he can tolerate human incarnation.” Non sequitur.

      Like

    • Forgiving a sin without extracting full punishment is injustice?

      By this logic, the father in the prodigal son parable unjust! Also, by this logic God was unjust to forgive the people of Nineveh in the Book of Jonah.

      Also, don’t you think the real injustice is to transfer punishment to an innocent person?

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    • Fawaz

      “Forgiving a sin without extracting full punishment is injustice?

      By this logic, the father in the prodigal son parable unjust! Also, by this logic God was unjust to forgive the people of Nineveh in the Book of Jonah.”

      Sure. If your mother is murdered and her murderer is forgiven without any price being paid, then you have injustice.

      “Also, don’t you think the real injustice is to transfer punishment to an innocent person?”

      Not if god pays the price himself and doesn’t anoint a some random dude from his creation.

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    • Trey,

      If someone did murder a loved one, I would not say well thats ok, because the Messiah Jesus payed the price.

      But you did bring up a good point about sins where the rights of creation such as humans are violated. Sins can be of two types: One in which we violated a limit set by God but not violate any creatures right. The second type involves violating a creature’s rights.

      As for the violation of the rights of creatures the following has been stated in Hadith.
      “Whoever has wronged anyone with regard to his honour or anything else, let him settle the matter today before there is no dinar and no dirham, and if he has any righteous deeds, an amount commensurate with his wrongdoing will be taken from him, and if he has no good deeds (to his credit) some of the bad deeds of his companion will be taken and added to his burden.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 2317.

      There are some caveats to this. For example embracing Islam wipes all previous sins because the good deed is truly tremendous. Also God knows the true value of a deep and sincere repentance and how massive a good deed that can be. And a sincere repentance would entail efforts to rectify the wrong one has done.

      As for the notion of God paying the price for our sins, this involves God dying. If Jesus is one person , fully God and fully man at the same time, how can he die? If he is the Ever-Living God. If you say, it is only the man who died then you are separating the supposed natures and also going against your statement that God must pay the price.

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    • I beg to differ with regards to the Qur’an as it gives up a concise yet recognisable view of Jesus that many NT scholars would accept. See chapter 3 of the Qur’an as a good example of this. Let me know which of this you disagree with.

      Furthermore you see the problem i have with the claim about Jesus’ atoning death for sin ia that it lacks any real sense of justice. For God is satiated through the death of an innocent person. If justice involves giving what is due to a person for their sins then how can this be considered just?

      Liked by 1 person

    • “The Qur’an is very important to refer to due to it being consistent with the teaching of Jesus, do you disagree that Jesus taught this?”

      This is what Richard so easily disproved. If you only cite portions of the gospel that agree with the Koran, then you prove nothing, you’ve assumed your conclusion into the premise Patrice. So why would anyone agree with such an illogical and unfair approach?

      “I beg to differ with regards to the Qur’an as it gives up a concise yet recognisable view of Jesus that many NT scholars would accept. See chapter 3 of the Qur’an as a good example of this. Let me know which of this you disagree with.”

      You’ve listen to Paul too long. I think you will find that there is one scholar that says this but Paul just repeats this claim ad nauseum. Even then, you won’t find any New Testament scholar or historical Jesus scholar that would agree or look anywhere near the Quran for primary evidence. This is a Blogging Theology smokescreen

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    • Fawaz

      Save your breath with the hadith – they have absolutely zero credibility as historical documents. There are no reasons to presume that islamic sources are the truth, so who cares what the hadith says?

      Either way, what you are saying is absurd – if you kill someone then all you have to do is do a bunch of good deeds to balance it and then allah forgives you? that still leaves the injustice of murder uncorrected.

      “As for the notion of God paying the price for our sins, this involves God dying. If Jesus is one person , fully God and fully man at the same time, how can he die?”

      This argument that muslims keep coming up with is really making you all look dumb. God can exist in however many forms he chooses. If he wants to incarnate, he can. And he can be simultaneously of two natures. It ısn’t the logical dilemma you guys want it to be.

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    • Patrice

      You are making a circular argument. The muslim view of jesus sacrifice is completely irrelevant – we don’t believe that he was a mere creature, so your point is moot. Why you guys can’t get that simple point is beyond me. We don’t think the muslim view of jesus is true, you presume that it is in your argument.

      As for whether “many” NT scholars would agree with the quran is also moot – no serious NT scholar would refer to the quran to learn about the historical jesus. This means that any commonality in viewpoints would be merely coincidental and in no way proof or evidence for the truth claims of the quran.

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    • Paulus and Trey

      My premise is the teaching of Jesus found in the NT (see for my first post on this article for proof), this is my assumption that Jesus said these words and that they meant what he said. The Qur’an then proceeds from this with the same point that Jesus made. The reason for this is to demonstrate their symmetry in this most important of subjects. Salvation.

      The Qur’an therefore is proven right in this subject if Jesus is to be trusted. Your point about NT scholars is moot considering their field of research is restricted to sources of that time only. However if you believe that Jesus fulfilled OT prophecy then my usage of the Qur’an should pose no ideological problem.

      If you find their consistency to be mere coincidence considering all the times you both have pointed out the limitations of the Prophet Muhammad, then that is of course your choice but isn’t it rather odd for such a thing to be there at all?

      Liked by 2 people

    • Trey,

      Having ones good deeds taken away and your victims bad deeds placed on you on the Day of Judgement IS a big punishment. And the amount is dependent on the gravity of the sin. Murder, physical injury, stealing, slander , gossip etc are sins where others rights are violated. Depending on the severity one would be punished.

      But you still did not answer, how does Jesus being crucified compensate for someone murdering some one else? Should the victim or his/her loved one find any comfort knowing that Jesus died for the sins of the murderer?

      Liked by 1 person

    • Patrice

      That is still circular reasoning!

      You have presumed that the quran holds a reliable account of jesus’ words even though no reputable NT scholar looks to the quran as a reliable source for his life and teaching. None of these points have ever been proven to be accurate.

      No scholar agrees that the quran is “right” about what jesus said or did – practically none of the particulars of his life and ministry are even mentioned in the quran.

      For example no scholar agrees that jesus was “taken up” by allah, or that he breathed life into toy animals. ANd no scholar looks to the quran to discover where he traveled, who his disciples were, what the romans said or did to him or any other fact.

      You are saying that the quran proves the quran is right because the quran is right. DO you see?

      Like

    • Patrice

      That is still circular reasoning!

      You have presumed that the quran holds a reliable account of jesus’ words even though no reputable NT scholar looks to the quran as a reliable source for his life and teaching. None of these points have ever been proven to be accurate.

      No scholar agrees that the quran is “right” about what jesus said or did – practically none of the particulars of his life and ministry are even mentioned in the quran.

      For example no scholar agrees that jesus was “taken up” by allah, or that he breathed life into toy animals. ANd no scholar looks to the quran to discover where he traveled, who his disciples were, what the romans said or did to him or any other fact.

      You are saying that the quran proves the quran is right because the quran is right. DO you see?

      Like

    • My presumption is rather clear. That the Gospel of Luke accurately records Jesus’ teaching on this issue. A 1st century document. The Qur’an in this way is vindicated. Care to state why you think they don’t?

      You keep saying that no scholar says the Qur’an is right as if this is some kind of killer argument, instead it is simply arguing from silence, unless you have some citations by reputable scholars who say that they do not agree and why?

      Furthermore you have not considered my point that NT scholars would not utilise the Qur’an due to it being written later, this does not however mean it is wrong anymore than a modern biography of a historical figure is wrong because it is not written contemporaneously, a bad argument.

      I think it is time to actually respond to my points rather than circling around in generalities, repetition, and misrepresentation.

      Liked by 1 person

  3. Burhanuddin, thanks for sharing this brilliant comment, masha’Allah.

    I recommend everyone to check out Danizier’s (the one whose comment is in the painting) great blog including this article:

    https://danizier.wordpress.com/2011/04/22/bloody-human-sacrifice-atonement-mythology/

    Liked by 1 person

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