Brother Hashim and Blogging Theology writer Richard Zetter at Speakers’ Corner yesterday. A good discussion.
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Blogging Theology 
Very good discussion!
However, I see that it’s quite absurdity that christians need always to bring/draw new meaning for the common concepts and normative language’s terms just to justify their doctrines while they should have made the other way round, especially that the most passages in the OT & NT support those common concepts.
Habakkuk 1:12
” LORD, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One,YOU WILL NEVER DIE…..”
============
Immortal doesn’t mean death?! I’m amazed by christians’ language!
Immortal does mean death for anyone!
At least, the death has its definition that the one who died, it has no effect, no power, and nothing. The word itself speaks about itself.
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I forgot to mention that Brother Hashim was doing a good job.
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It is utterly pathetic to watch Richard question the meaning of the following words – Death; Sense; Imortality; Eternal; Being; God; Fully God; Authority……
Apparently, the usual Christian tactic is – “When in DOUBT deny common sense, and redefine all terms and concepts”
I love listening to Br. Hashim, he really knows how to expose the Christians and catch them in their own contradictions. It is clear that Hashim has a better grasp of the Bible than Richard does. Hashim made a great point at about 38:00, “Did the Father ever refer to Jesus as God?” Answer no, so Jesus must not be God.
Also, remarkably, Hashim pointed out that Jesus is never referred to as Yahweh in the NT. Amazing!
The last Christian interlocutor is a joke.
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He never did die. His manhood, his flesh, His body certainly died. But God/Jesus didn’t. In fact, He never began. He always was God, He was with God from eternity past and is with God in eternity future. His person-hood began in a lowly cattle shed around 2 millennia ago. Only a short time later He promised the dying, repentant thief that they would meet again, that very same day in heaven -not 3 days later. For, in fact, He always was, He always existed, He has always been, I AM THAT I AM, for the very purpose, to redeem us and bring us into God’s presence forever and ever and ever.
Oh the beauty and the fantastic mysteries of life and the incredible events we are witness to from an inside perspective as children of the Most High.
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So nobody died for your sins
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It’s a cath 22 for the Christians (as br. Hashim stated)
They either acknowledge that Jesus did not die (hence no crucification/resurrection took place) or they accept that Jesus is a mortal (unlike God)
What a predicament!
No wonder they call it a mystery 😊
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The only “Mystery” is how anyone can believe such a foolish doctrine.
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furqan
“It’s a cath 22 for the Christians (as br. Hashim stated)
They either acknowledge that Jesus did not die (hence no crucification/resurrection took place) or they accept that Jesus is a mortal (unlike God)”
The only issue for christians is that muslims seem unable to comprehend the concept of the incarnation and the triune god.
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in my experience it is Christians who seem unable to comprehend the concept of the incarnation and their triune god.
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Trey,
The problem is not whether we fully comprehend the concepts of the incarnation and Trinity – we do. The problem for you is that we outright reject them as being incompatible with the ontological nature of God.
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Trey
I have yet to meet an orthodox trinitarian.
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Paul Williams
“in my experience it is Christians who seem unable to comprehend the concept of the incarnation and their triune god.”
Your experience is as relevant as the hadith is to historical credibility – that is it is completely irrelevant.
Ibn Issam
“The problem is not whether we fully comprehend the concepts of the incarnation and Trinity – we do. The problem for you is that we outright reject them as being incompatible with the ontological nature of God.”
The plurality of god is as clear as day in the bible, both old and new.
Burhanuddin1
“I have yet to meet an orthodox trinitarian.”
That’s because you probably are kept in a cellar and no one wants to let you out.
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Trey,
If the plurality of god is as “clear as day” they wouldn’t have to call it a “mystery.” Bam!
I think it is your personal opinion in regard to the Hadith that is actually irrelevant, much like your rude comment to Burhannadin.
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Trey you are priceless. Good luck with your “old and new” Bible.
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” Your experience is as relevant as the hadith is to historical credibility ”
How immature!
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very.
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Trey,
You are deflecting, it is not about knowing God personally. Due to the inexplicable concept of the Trinity Christians must refer to it as a “mystery.” Meanwhile, Muslims have never had to refer to the Unitarian Nature of God in terms of a “mystery.”
We believe that God is immortal and can never be mortal, as that would be a contradiction in terms. Unfortunately, like Richard in the above video, Christians are forced by the Trinitarian doctrine to argue against simple logic. It’s so painful to watch, I really feel for the poor guy.
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Watching the first three minutes, I wonder: does the understanding of death as a separation of body and soul have a basis in the Quran?
كَيْفَ تَكْفُرُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَكُنتُمْ أَمْوَتًا فَأَحْيَـكُمْ ثُمَّ يُمِيتُكُمْ ثُمَّ يُحْيِيكُمْ ثُمَّ إِلَيْهِ تُرْجَعُونَ
Is it possible the verse 28 of Surat Albaqara for instance, which uses the same root ‘ma-ta’ for both death after life and inexistence prior to life, implies that at the moment of death the soul is not only separated from the body but also extinguishes and returns to a state of nonexistence?
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Not sure if Hashim was adopting the understanding of death as a separation of decaying body and eternal soul for the sake of the argument or if he sees it as Islamic or compatible with Islamic teachings since he adds, “we don’t have any problem with that.”
Any clarification is appreciated.
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Holy Quran 39:42
——————
اللَّهُ يَتَوَفَّى الْأَنفُسَ حِينَ مَوْتِهَا وَالَّتِي لَمْ تَمُتْ فِي مَنَامِهَا ۖ فَيُمْسِكُ الَّتِي قَضَىٰ عَلَيْهَا الْمَوْتَ وَيُرْسِلُ الْأُخْرَىٰ إِلَىٰ أَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى ۚ إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَاتٍ لِّقَوْمٍ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ
Allah takes the souls at the time of their death, and those that do not die [He takes] during their sleep. Then He keeps those for which He has decreed death and releases the others for a specified term. Indeed in that are signs for a people who give thought.
—–
Nothing unislamic about Hashim’s statement
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Thank you, Furqan.
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What a tangled web
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Now may the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great Shepherd of the sheep,equip you with every good thing to do His will.
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And again: “I will put My trust in Him.” And once again: “Here am I, and the children God has given Me.” Therefore, since the children have flesh and blood, He too shared in their humanity, so that by His death He might destroy him who holds the power of death, that is, the devil, and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.…He did not enter by the blood of goats and calves, but He entered the Most Holy Place once for all by His own blood, thus securing eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that their bodies are clean, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself unblemished to God, purify our consciences from works of death, so that we may serve the living God!…
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Dude can you converse like a normal human being or are you just programmed to preach at people 24/7?
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Lol, he is preaching at himself
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Christian Robot, please abort next download!..initiate deletion sequence for next sermon!
beep, bop, boop!! 🙂
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LOL!
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Jesus died for our sins. He rose from the dead. He lives forever more. He paid the debt we could not pay. Believing from our grateful hearts He did these things brings salvation.
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You want everyone to experience your own personal Christ of Faith? That’s impossible. Your preaching is in vain. You are wasting your life.
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More preaching…
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Paul, exactly which verses in the New Testament are fictionalized and which ones have been embellished? Would you reference each fictionalized verse? The embellished verses originally said what, precisely?
If Paul decides not to address these questions, I urge anyone who believes as he does, to go ahead and answer.
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“You want everyone to experience your own personal Christ of Faith? That’s impossible. Your preaching is in vain. You are wasting your life.” Burhanuddin1
Evoking your responses, I am gratified, knowing I’m fulfilling my destiny.
I knew a kid who got into trouble with the law. I shared my faith in Christ with him. Hadn’t heard from him in about a year when out of the blue he called one day thankful for his relationship with Christ. Shortly after that I attended his funeral. He had been killed in a car accident. He’s praising his God at this moment and will be for eternity. Can’t wait to join him. All are invited. None of us knows when this life will end.
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Hi guys,
I just wanted to add some thoughts to the discussion here.
1) Some Muslims might feel sorry for me, on the basis of the arguments I make in the discussion. Please don’t. There are intellectual topics that as a Christian that I have to give more thought to than others. The Trinity really isn’t one of them. I just see no problem at all, because…
(2) …I define the Trinity so loosely. I’m happy to try and defend Nicene/Constantinopolitan/Chalcedonian orthodoxy, but I don’t feel bound by it. Why? Because it uses terms that go beyond the Bible. They are helpful ways to try and understand the Bible, and I believe much or all of what they say is defensible, but it’s not even necessary to defend such things. Ultimately, the Bible tells me there is One God, who in some way is Father, Son and Holy Spirit – because there is no logical contradiction between these statements, and this is all scripture requires of me, I simply see no problem at all.
(3) I have no problem using extra-Biblical words in an attempt to conveniently summarise the teaching of the Bible.
(4) I don’t quibble about terminology for the sake of defending the Trinity/Incarnation. Even putting that issue aside, I am very unclear in my own mind precisely what death is, and whether we have a soul that can be separated from the body. And I’m not the only one. One of the Cappadocian Fathers famously said (paraphrase), ‘If you cannot even understand how your own soul relates to your body, how can you expect to understand the union of natures in Christ?’ I agree wholeheartedly.
(5) God is a mystery. This may sound like a cop-out, but based upon what we DO know of him, i.e. he is not bound in human space, he is not limited as we are, it is utterly unsurprising that we don’t know everything about how he operates.
(6) I am not the first to make this point, so credit where credit is due, but it has been pointed out that Muslims believe the non-material, eternal God interacts with the material, temporal universe. How does this work? I haven’t the foggiest, but like Muslims, I agree. But if we don’t know how this interaction works, it’s not surprising that we don’t know how the divinity interacts with the humanity of Christ. But if the former is possible, as we both affirm, why not the latter?
Thanks for reading!
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I think christians have to return to the classical answer to justify their polytheism they practice with their minds, hearts, and souls. And yes ,Richard. You are not exceptional in this.
IT IS that ( MYSTERY) which have made the three as one!
IT IS that (MYSTERY) which have made the human being as God!
IT IS that (MYSTERY) which have made God=Son of God=Man=Son of Man=Servant=Lord=Lamb=Lion!
IT IS that (MYSTERY) which have made christians neglect the whole historical context of their bibel!
IT IS that (MYSTERY) which have made the clearest passages in the OT & NT be subjected to the most ambiguous ones.
Yet….
IT IS the same and exact (MYSTERY) which have made Mormons believe firmly that they have not violated bible’s teaching!
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Abdullah,
Well said. I think this is why Christians are always talking about “faith.” When I question them on Trinity, Incarnation, deity, etc. they try to defend their belief, but when eventually they cannot, they return to the classical answer as you said and say “Well, it is a MYSTERY and I just have FAITH.” As if that is supposed to put an end to the question. Unfortunately this is what the lay Christian is taught to think and say by their preacher, so that they will turn their intellect off, and not question the Church Doctrines. To me this just indicates that, somewhere deep down, even their own rational self cannot accept such absurd doctrines as the Trinity, since they have given up on trying to defend it rationally.
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Richard, thank you for writing.
“There are intellectual topics that as a Christian that I have to give more thought to than others. The Trinity really isn’t one of them. I just see no problem at all, because…”
I think this more than just an “intellectual topic” amongst others. There is only one God. And he makes it perfectly clear realization of this fact is of the utmost importance. I agree with the Biblical Jesus the most important commandment is to love God with all your mind included.
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Richard
“Ultimately, the Bible tells me there is One God, who in some way is Father, Son and Holy Spirit – because there is no logical contradiction between these statements, and this is all scripture requires of me, I simply see no problem at all.”
In trinitarianism Father, Son and HS are three distinct “Who’s” (persons)
This “One God, who…” is HE One “Who” or three “Who’s”? Or four? Who IS this ONE GOD WHO the Bible tells you about?
Is the triune God one “What” (essence, substance) in three “Who’s” (persons)?
Or is the triune God one “Who” (?) in three “Who’s” (persons)?
You seem to say “the Bible tells me there is One “Who”, who in some way is three distinct Who’s”?
I think there is logical contradiction between these statements, and if this scripture requires of you, I see a fundamental problem.
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Just to respond to the last comment –
I wasn’t being as precise as I could have been in that statement you quoted where I said ‘who’.
I think God could be one ‘what’, in three ‘who’s.
Maybe as you also suggested, he is ‘one who’ in three ‘who’s. The latter who cannot be a who in the same way the first who is a who, otherwise there is a logical contradiction. But I would be happy to say that God is ‘who’ in his unity in a different way that he is ‘who’ in being three persons.
‘Who’ is a term that we are used to applying to uni-personal beings, particularly humans. It is therefore not surprising that I am unsure how best we should transfer this term to being used about God.
Also, the concept of person, self, identity, are complex matters I remember studying at school, and which I believe people study at a university level. If we really do want to be precise, we would have to go in depth to see what we mean by these terms.
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Wait a minute……..Who’s on first?
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Richard
“If we really do want to be precise, we would have to go in depth”
I agree. Richard you are not the only trinitarian who is not precise when speaking about his God. Sometimes God is one Who, sometimes one what, sometimes three who’s. A what becomes a who in one sentence and in the next it is the other way around.
“‘who’ in his unity in a different way that he is ‘who’ in being three persons.” Tell me who is this “Who in HIS unity” in trinitarianism?
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Richard,
1 – In relation to your apologetics, who said we feel sorry for you? Don’t take things so personally, Wallahi, with all our sincerity, we pray you will see the light of Islam, Insh’allah. We would be proud to have you as a Muslim brother!
2- When you have to prevaricate on terms such as Trinity and “define it loosely” you should take it as an indication that there is something wrong with a core doctrine in your belief system. You don’t feel bound by orthodoxies, because they use terms that go beyond the Bible. Does that make you a heretic, in the eyes of other Christians? You said, “One God, who in some way is Father, Son and Holy Spirit – because there is no logical contradiction” I beg to differ, the contradiction in concepts has been addressed time and again, on this blog and elsewhere, yet you willfully choose to ignore these arguments. If you are not willing to step outside of what your (now proven to be uninspired and errant) “scripture requires” then you will never come to any greater understanding of the divine truth.
3-The word “Trinity” itself is an extra biblical term, that Jesus himself never heard of, and never taught, and would have been unfamiliar with in his own lifetime. Doesn’t that mean anything to you?
4- Why else would you quibble about terminology if not for the sake of defending the Trinity/Incarnation?
5- “Mystery” -Classic cop-out. LOL!!! Yes, you are right, God is not bound in human space, he is not limited as we are, and we don’t fully understand how he operates, but this does not negate the absolute Oneness of God. It is a big leap to say that based on those items we can affirm even the possibility of the Trinity.
6- Yes, the non-material, eternal God interacts with the material, temporal universe. However, according to Islamic belief God created the universe and has power over everything within it. He is unique and EXALTED ABOVE everything He creates, and His greatness CANNOT BE COMPARED to His creation. Furthermore, He is the only one deserving of any worship and the ultimate purpose of all creation is to submit to Him in loving obedience to his commandments. – So….NO it is not possible for the divinity to interact with a human being or Christ in the way that Christians believe. But this does not negate that Allah is near to us, and that we can have a personal relationship with God. This subject has been discussed and agreed upon by traditional orthodox Islamic scholars.
Salaam
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Tabark Alllah. I liked #6 🙂
Richard, May Allah guide you with his mercy.
May Allah open your heart and ears to his light.
أسأل الله أن يهديك ويشرح صدرك للإسلام ! يارب ياكريم اهد هذا الرجل للإسلام وانفع به الإسلام .
اللهم يارحيم يا ودود اخسأ شيطانه وافتح على بصيرته ونور قلبه وحبب إليه الإيمان وزينه في قلبه يا حي ياقيوم
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Richard
You said;
(6) I am not the first to make this point, so credit where credit is due, but it has been pointed out that Muslims believe the non-material, eternal God interacts with the material, temporal universe. How does this work? I haven’t the foggiest, but like Muslims, I agree. But if we don’t know how this interaction works, it’s not surprising that we don’t know how the divinity interacts with the humanity of Christ. But if the former is possible, as we both affirm, why not the latter?
I say;
You are mistaken. It is not about interaction but about counting. We do believe in heaven, angels, God etc. that are all supernatural and we do not know how they are.
But God clearly said he is 1 and any rational human being including kindergarten kids know what 1 means. It means 1 is not 2. Richard, counting is not supernatural because we know how to count and know that 1 is not 2,3,4…………..
You are saying Jesus has 100% God and 100% man in him and it is obviously 2 persons or two beings. Any person is a being. A person that is not a being is not a person.
You said in the video that, God has 3 persons. Where in the Bible can we get God saying he has 3 persons? No where. But there are many places in the Bible that clearly state God is 1. 1 not 2,3,4,etc.
Even if God interacts with us, it is one being interacting with another being and we have 1 in 1 interactions with God that can be 2 beings interactions between me and my God.
We humans are not God. If the God part of Jesus interact with God part just like God interacting with us means Jesus man part is not God or part of the Trinity and God did not die for your sins.
You said you do not know how Jesus God part interacts with his human part, how do you know he has 100% God and 100% man even though it is not stated in the Bible Jesus is 100% God 100%man”?
You do not know the God you are defining. You do not know God but you can define God Richard. It is illogical to define something you do not know.
Thanks.
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Richard
You said
“Ultimately, the Bible tells me there is One God, who in some way is Father, Son and Holy Spirit – because there is no logical contradiction between these statements, and this is all scripture requires of me, I simply see no problem at all.”
I say
Jesus said God is one. Full stop, period, dot, (.). You have added your wish and changed what Jesus said. Jesus never said “One God, who in some way is Father, Son and Holy Spirit”. But Jesus said “Hear Oh Israel, the Lord our God is One”. So, Richard you added you added your wish and defined God how you want like the councils upon councils did.
How do you define something that you do not know? Richard? Even thought that God has clearly defined Himself as ONE?
You also said in the video that “God is 3 Persons”. Never make that mistake again. If you insists, then you have to accept the 3 persons God of the Rastarians who is Emperor Haile Selaissie. Yes, if God can reveal Himself some 2000 years as Jesus Christ, how do you know God did not reveal Himself as Hindu God sometime in life?
Yes according to Christianity God can reveal Himself as wish to love His creatures. Why not Hindus elephants, monkeys, and voodoo snakes?
Why not Mormons multi personal Gods if God is multi personal according to Richard?
Thanks
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Hi Intellect
You are quoting Jesus said God is one…one what?
In your mind God is genderless and nothing like his creation or rather we are nothing like him.
So when you said God is one what do you mean?
Is there a Father a Son and the Holy Spirit mentioned in the bible?
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Richard
You said;
‘Who’ is a term that we are used to applying to uni-personal beings, particularly humans. It is therefore not surprising that I am unsure how best we should transfer this term to being used about God.
I say;
But Richard you are best at transferring the term “man” to being used about God. How can you say Jesus a man is God and will be unsure how best we should transfer ‘who’ being used about God?
Jesus is ‘who’ as a man and you have already transferred ‘who’ to God and now you are running away from ‘who’ that you ascribed to God.
Oh is Jesus as a person not a being? Any person is being including Jesus and therefore Jesus is a being counted as one being ‘who’ is Jesus who walked on this earth.
If God is multi personal then that thinking is polytheism because every person is a being and multipersonal God like Christian Trinity, Rastafarianism, Hiduism, Mormons etc. are all Gods and can be counted as Gods and that is polytheism.
God said He is 1 and period. God did not say He is multipersonal. God stopped at 1. Saying that 1 is multi is counting God like humans are multi personal sharing 1 being of humanity.
3 persons are 3 beings and can be counted. God never added any 3 when He said He is 1 only and alone.
Thanks.
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