When the Arabs relentlessly wage war and lose, what do you expect?
I support democracy (Israel) and not terrorism (Hamas).
Perhaps you ought to try and look at politics without your Islamic glasses? This isn’t the masjid…you only claim to support the Palestinians because they are majority Muslim- be honest
I find that highly offensive.
Those people are occupiers, and they should leave that land. This is what your scripture say.
Chritstains… I think no one reach the level of your hypocrisy in this issue.
1. The creation of the Israeli state can be seen as an aggression. It came through Jewish immigration and was declared by colonial powers. It is true that Arab nations attacked Israel but the first aggression is the existence of Israel.
2. “Islamic glasses”: through which glasses should Muslims look instead? But when we talk about International Law instead of Islamic law we can still call Israel an aggressor because it was installed through foreign powers and immigration (permitted by foreign powers).
3. Democracy has nothing to do with Christianity. Christianity may accept different kinds of governments as valid but it does not propagate a particular one especially not democracy which could be and is anti-Christian.
Let’s compare democracy (Israel) and terrorism (Hamas/Ghaza) in some issues important for Christianity:
(Israel/Ghaza)
Abortion: legal/forbidden
Sex outside marriage: legal/forbidden
Pornography: legal/forbidden
Prostitution: legal/forbidden
Half-naked women: legal/forbidden
Making fun of God: legal/forbidden
4. According to Christian theology there is nothing worse than a Jew. So how could you as a Christian support a Jewish state anyway?
And yes, I know that American evangelicals some centuries ago have changed the theology not only to tolerate Jews but even to consider their covenant as valid. But this is baseless.
Oh and I forgot one very important point: homosexuality
Forbidden in Ghaza and legal in Israel. Not only legal but also propagated. After the attack in Orlando netanyahu made a speech in which he said something like: “Let us hug gay people to show them our respect”.
That land was given to the Jews by God according to the OT, something the Koran agrees with. Stop committing blasphemy Abdullah by questioning the God you declare to believe in.
The Arabs have been offered peace treaties time and time again but continue to kill and maim. I have no sympathy for them when they indoctrinate their children to hate Jews from infant hood- I’ve seen the videos. They have no desire but to continue their anti Semitic rage based on the sunnah. The saddest part is that such evil people are raising innocent kids to hate from the beginning. Islam is rotting their brain.
The Turks joined hitler in their anti Semitic tirade and lost. The Arabs have continued to wage war to this day and lost. Israel is the only bastion of democracy and hope in the ME. Your support of terrorism over democracy shows how fundamentalist Muslims really are when it comes time to choose.
The covenant the Jews had with God is broken according to Islam and Christianity. They have no right to have the holy land according to Islam and Christianity.
Hating Jews is Christian. Islam is not more hostile to Jews than to other non-Muslims. In fact Jews are very similar to Muslims in many aspects. The problem came with Zionism and the fulfillment of the prophecy. But there is no inherent hate for Jews in Islam like in Christianity. Stop projecting the Western and Christian history of antisemitism on Muslims.
democracy, terrorism, antisemitism………
These are all terms with no significance especially from the view of Christianity. The first has nothing to do with it, the second is a meaningless term to describe an enemy in asymmetric warfare or simply to demonize him and the third is one of the pillars of Christianity.
If, in the course of conversation with anyone who differs on the issue, you have to resort to the standard broad brush Zionist accusations it merely indicates that you have already lost the moral argument.
It is truly amazing how you say that you support freedom and democracy, and yet based on nothing more than your hatred for Muslims you are readily prepared to deny the same freedoms to others. What a shameful attitude for such a “good” Christian as yourself to have,
Those criminal zionists don’t give a S**T to what the Torah says.
That “state” was based on crime not on the perfect law of God.
Those whom you praise their democracy are Devils according to Jesus and the OT.
However, I know that you’re soaked with hypocrisy, so that you cannot say the truth although many non zionist jews state it.
After all, your prophet Paul believed that pagan roman was an authority from God.
Moreover, the land is for the righteous people according to OT,NT, and Quran.
Historically, Muslims have been ruling that land worshiping God of Abraham more than Jews/christians combined.
Even if you didn’t give S**T to what your bible says as most christian zionists, those people would still occupie according to the” international law” .
I’ve no doubt the zionist are criminals .
Every Muslim is loved by God. Every Muslim should be treated with the same love that Christ has for all human beings; No greater love hath any man than this, that a man lay down His life for his friends.
This expression of love supersedes the Law which told everyone to love one’s neighbor as oneself.
And we know who our neighbors are, correct? All people. All people.
The first frame is technically misleading. Yes, the area was called Palestine pre 1948, but it had nothing to do with today’s Palestine natinallistically. It was a land ruled by the Turks, then British and inhabited with a multi-national population of Jews, Arabs and Christians. Of course there were native Palestinians who found themselves suddenly living in a Jewish country, but it is wrong to say that their country was taken away from them, since they never had a country to begin with. (This is not to be confused with incidents of mass expulsion of Arab vilages by the Israeli armed forces. I am not defending that, but disputing the claim that Israel “wiped off Palestine from the map”)
“It was a land ruled by the Turks, then British and inhabited with a multi-national population of Jews, Arabs and Christians.”
– Where do Muslims come into the equation? Are they the ‘Arabs’?
– What about Arabic-speaking Christians? Can’t one be Arab and Christian at the same time? Same for Palestinian Jews.
If anything, it is the so-called Jewish state of Israel that is more multi-national with its settlers from Russia, Poland, Romania, America, France, North Africa, South Africa, to a lesser degree Ethiopia, etc.
Verdant,
You are right, history didn’t start with the Turks and British.
I think Christians might care more about the plight of the Palestinians, if they actually acted more like their own Prophet Jesus, who stood against the occupation of his Palestinian homeland by the Romans.
Christians should be reminded that Jesus was a Palestinian (thanks to PW for previous post). I am sure Jesus would have spoken out strongly against the mistreatment of the Palestinian people today.
Quote from the article:
Certainly, no person is superior to another based on culture, language, or skin color, but to ignore the way Jesus’ whiteness has been used to subjugate and discriminate against racial minorities in the West and many other countries is to overlook another important aspect of Jesus’ teachings: Love thy neighbor as thyself. Malcolm X wrote about white supremacists and slave-owners using Christianity to justify their “moral” and “racial superiority” over blacks. In Malcolm’s own words, “The Holy Bible in the White man’s hands and its interpretations of it have been the greatest single ideological weapon for enslaving millions of non-white human beings.” Throughout history, whether it was in Jerusalem, Spain, India, Africa, or in the Americas, white so-called “Christians” cultivated a distorted interpretation of religion that was compatible with their racist, colonialist agenda.
And here we are in the 21st century where Islamophobia (also stemming from racism because the religion of Islam gets racialized) is on the rise; where people calling themselves “Christian” fear to have a black president; where members of the KKK and anti-immigration movements behave as if Jesus were an intolerant white American racist who only spoke English despite being born in the Middle East. It is astonishing how so-called “Christians” like Ann Coulter call Muslims “rag-heads” when in actuality, Jesus himself would fit the profile of a “rag-head,” too. As would Moses, Joseph, Abraham, and the rest of the Prophets (peace be upon them all). As William Rivers Pitt writes:
The ugly truth which never even occurs to most Americans is that Jesus looked a lot more like an Iraqi, like an Afghani, like a Palestinian, like an Arab, than any of the paintings which grace the walls of American churches from sea to shining sea.
I am not one to advocate violence, but in the bible JESUS says:
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. ~ Luke 22:36
These are all terms with no significance especially from the view of Christianity. The first has nothing to do with it, the second is a meaningless term to describe an enemy in asymmetric warfare or simply to demonize him and the third is one of the pillars of Christianity.”
I reply, from a biblical point of view that’s all nonsense.
There is no salvation and no church without the Jews. They are it’s foundation.
The evangelical church of today loves the Jews. If anything they could be criticized for over-loving the Jews, if that were possible.
Just read Romans 10.and 11:
All Israel Shall Be Saved
Romans 11 v 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
” All Israel Shall Be Saved”
Oh!
Jesus must have been wrong then ( Matthew 8:11-12)
” IAnd I tell you this, that many Gentiles will come from all over the world–from east and west–and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob at the feast in the Kingdom of Heaven.
But many Israelites–those for whom the Kingdom was prepared–WILL BE THROWN into outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth”
But Israel is a secular liberal state. It is not based on the law from the Old Testament. By this fact it would lose the legitimation even if it had any from a Christian or Jewish point of view.
Erasmus,
I would like to think, and I can only hope and pray, that there are some good Jews and Christians out there who would have the intelligence to differentiate between a “legitimate” form of peaceful non-violent Spiritual Zionism, and the immoral physical usurpation of a land, through the brutal, unjust, program of ethnic and racial cleansing of an entire population of “undesirables.”
In regard to modern day Muslims wanting to conquer the whole world…..your Islamophobia has been noted.
Let’s be honest here: Muslims aren’t interested in justice or any suffering caused by the Hamas war against democratic Israel. Muslims are upset because the kafir are dominant. If you actually cared about Palestinian suffering you would be speaking out against the terrorist indoctrination poured into their children through education and television, which is the root cause of their suffering. Israel has offered peace time and time again. Every time Hamas has broken the treaty.
You hypocrites have your blood boiling because Allah has let you down. Islam and Muslims are being ruled by democracy, truth and justice, and you can’t stand it.
Let’s be honest here: Muslims aren’t interested in justice or any suffering caused by the Hamas war against democratic Israel. Muslims are upset because the kafir are dominant. If you actually cared about Palestinian suffering you would be speaking out against the terrorist indoctrination poured into their children through education and television, which is the root cause of their suffering. Israel has offered peace time and time again. Every time Hamas has broken the treaty.
You hypocrites have your blood boiling because Allah has let you down. Islam and Muslims are being ruled by democracy, truth and justice, and you can’t stand it.
I don’t see any benefit in discussing this Paulus guy. He makes only non-Christian arguments against Islam and keeps repeating them. Everyone already knows the secular liberal views. You are simply pretending as if they are Christian. Everything you say without authentic references from Christian sources is totally worthless.
Propaganda is that which is found in the masjid and uncritically adopted by Muslims, namely, the kafir ought not to rule the Muslim. This propaganda leads to terrorism and its support from commentators seen here.
The meme and graphic is simplistic because it leaves out the previous history of the Ottoman Empire and the fact that the Ottoman Turks were the sovereign political country of the area that was called Palestine by the Romans, but was never a separate political entity with borders or state government over the area. There was no “Palestine” as a political country; it was an area under the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Turks were the country over that area until 1918 – after the Ottoman Turks were defeated, and since they joined with Germany in World War 1, they were justly punished for that and the land was under the British mandate until 1948. But World War 2 broke out and lots of Jews were fleeing the Holocaust in Germany, Poland and other areas to try and get back to their land that they had from Joshua’s time to 70 AD. (off and on with Babylonian Exile, Greek and Roman occupation, etc.)
I am not defending everything Israel does; but it was the Arab Muslims who did not accept even giving the Jews ANY of the land in 1948; and they were the ones who kept attacking first and they kept loosing more territory each time.
I don’t believe 1948 was a fulfillment of prophesy, as many Evangelicals do; but it seems like a just thing for them to have their historical homeland back, from a human justice point of view; and God allowed them to gain back more and more of that land as time goes on.
Hamas has the famous Hadiths in their charter: “Fight the Jews until the day of resurrection” and “a tree or rock will say, “there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him”, etc. – that is very bad and inherently anti-Jewish in the texts of Islam.
“fight the Jews until the day of resurrection” Sahih Al-Bukhari; Vol. 4, Book 52, Hadith 177; Sahih Muslim 2922
It seems obvious that Islam itself has within it an Anti-Jewish basis for it’s never even allowing the Jews to have any of that land back.
Omar, the 2nd Caliph, attacked and took over the land around 636-639 AD and beyond and so Islam unjustly took the area from the Byzantines, who had the land after the Roman Empire became Christianized from the early centuries.
If the Arab Muslims had been more gracious at the beginning, and stopped attacking, and allowed Israel to have that part of the 1948 2 state plan, maybe they would have a more stable and fuller Palestine today. But once they kept attacking and doing terrorism all these years, both PLO and Yasser Arafat era and especially Hamas, and they quote those Hadiths all the time, Israel had no choice but to defend itself. (sometimes they go overboard, but one cannot expect them to be “angels”, given their history of so many other peoples wanting to destroy them (Haman in book of Esther, Roman Catholics in middle ages; Stalin, Hitler, and now Hamas and Hezbollah and some other smaller Jihadi groups.)
::: “fight the Jews until the day of resurrection” Sahih Al-Bukhari; Vol. 4, Book 52, Hadith 177; Sahih Muslim 2922
Great misquote! “The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews …” It’s basically saying that one of the signs of the Last Hour is that Muslims will fight against some Jews, not that we as Muslims should fight them. It does not even speak about the cause of this war.
::: Omar, the 2nd Caliph, attacked and took over the land around 636-639 AD and beyond and so Islam unjustly took the area from the Byzantines, who had the land after the Roman Empire became Christianized from the early centuries.
This is just straight ignorance, what did Heracle order right before the Muslim conquests? That ALL JEWS BE FORCIBLY CONVERTED. Why didn’t this happen? Because right after there were these conquests, and Jews were accorded freedom. Please learn your history, here’s a decent lecture about that if you’re interested in learning something: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCjeQ15CelE
Hamas uses those texts as justification for fighting and killing the Jews and for the belief that that fight to the death must go on now all the way to the end of time.
Furthermore, there are so many of those Hadith, it is ridiculous.
There is a lot of them. Here are some from Sahih Al Bukhari and Sahih Muslim
“The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (the Boxthorn tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.
(related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).
Sahih Muslim, 41:6985,
see also Sahih Muslim, 41:6981,
Sahih Muslim, 41:6982,
Sahih Muslim, 41:6983,
Sahih Muslim, 41:6984,
Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:56:791,
(Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:52:177)
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) said, “The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. “O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.”
حَدَّثَنَا إِسْحَاقُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ، أَخْبَرَنَا جَرِيرٌ، عَنْ عُمَارَةَ بْنِ الْقَعْقَاعِ، عَنْ أَبِي زُرْعَةَ، عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ ـ رضى الله عنه ـ عَنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ “ لاَ تَقُومُ السَّاعَةُ حَتَّى تُقَاتِلُوا الْيَهُودَ حَتَّى يَقُولَ الْحَجَرُ وَرَاءَهُ الْيَهُودِيُّ يَا مُسْلِمُ، هَذَا يَهُودِيٌّ وَرَائِي فَاقْتُلْهُ ”.
Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 2926
In-book reference : Book 56, Hadith 139
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 4, Book 52, Hadith 177
That is called judgment and justice at the end of time, which you also believe in.
Revelation 19:11 – He wages just and righteous war. (at end of time right before judgment – everyone must stand before the throne of God and be judged).
so you justify Jesus slaughtering millions if it is in your Scripture – classic double standards. And no we do not believe in your book of Revelation which Christians have mistakenly thought to be by St John the apostle. It was not.
I have read some of that. She spins things a lot. One of her main points was that the persecution was not all the time at the same intensity, (true) but sporadic; but there were definite times of established persecution. Another point was that some of the stories were centuries later fabricated; but the main ones are true.
These 9 periods of persecution are well established and documented.
Even Moss cannot dismiss them. Her point is that the persecution by not always Empire wide nor constant all the time, but off and on and sporadic.
One would have to document which ones are imbellished or made up on a case by case basis. Polycarp and Ignatius and Cyprian are documented; Tertullian documented several of them in N. Africa and the Lyons one is famous and well documented. and others are documented. Nero, Domitian, Septimus, etc. and Decius’ persecution is known by all (250), Valerian (257-258) and the worst one by Diocletian and Gallerious in 303-312 AD. https://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/10/academic-review-of-moss-myth-of-persecution
The Qur’an in Surah 9:28-30 does not say fight the Christians because they persecute the Jews (regarding the ruling of Heraclius of his decree that Jews are to be converted).
Theodosius (380-392 AD), Justinian (527-565 AD)and Heraclius (610-641 AD) were wrong in their theocratic principles. (total marriage of church and state) – that was not Biblical anyway.
Ibn Kathir gives the real reason for why the Muslims unjustly attacked and conquered the Byzantine Empire:
What is really interesting is verse 28 – “if you fear poverty, soon Allah will enrich you”. the reason for that was because Muhammad had conquered the Hijaz (the Arabian peninsula, especially around Mecca and Medina, and no pagans or idol worshippers were allowed. That means the Muslims could not get tax or penalty money from the pagans. Surah 9:5 – “fight the unbelievers where ever you find them”, proves this, and several Hadith that says “no two religions will be allowed on the Arabian peninsula” see Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 288, and other Hadiths, quoted at the bottom of this article *) They were all killed or driven out or converted to Islam. So now, there is no revenue from the pilgrimmages, so, according to verses 28-29, they will allow the Christians and Jews to be in the Islamic state, provided they surrender and don’t fight/resist, and pay the Jiziye with humiliation, and they cannot evangelize or build new churches or even criticize Islam.
Qur’an 9:28—O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.
Qur’an 9:29—Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
Qur’an 9:30—The Jews call Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is a saying from their mouth; (In this) they but imitate what the Unbelievers of old used to say. Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
Ibn Kathir, The Battles of the Prophet, pp. 183-4— “Allah, Most High, ordered the believers to prohibit the disbelievers from entering or coming near the sacred Mosque. On that, Quraish thought that this would reduce their profits from trade. Therefore, Allah, Most High, compensated them and ordered them to fight the people of the Book until they embrace Islam or pay the Jizyah. Allah says, “O ye who believe! Truly the pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” Therefore, the Messenger of Allah decided to fight the Romans in order to call them to Islam.”
Tafsir Ibn Kathir (on Qur’an 9:30)—”Fighting the Jews and Christians is legislated because they are idolaters and disbelievers. Allah the Exalted encourages the believers to fight the polytheists, disbelieving Jews and Christians, who uttered this terrible statement and utter lies against Allah, the Exalted. As for the Jews, they claimed that Uzayr was the son of God, Allah is free of what they attribute to Him. As for the misguidance of Christians over Isa, it is obvious.”
“The children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 8.12)
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold your house is left unto you desolate.” (Matthew 23.37,38) Then answered all the people (Jews) and said, “His blood be on us and on our children” (Matthew 27:25). 1 “But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you to councils, and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten” (Mark 13.9)
“He that believeth not shall be damned” (Mark 16.16)
“Ye are of your father the devil and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And I say the truth, why do you not believe me? He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8.43-47)
“Stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so you do. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which showed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers” (Acts 7.51-53)
“It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing you put it from you and judge yourself unworthy of everlasting life, we turn to the Gentiles” (Acts 13.45-51)
“For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake … wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.” (Titus 1.10-14).
“The Jews, who both killed the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God and are contrary to all men: forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins always: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.” (l Thessalonians 2.14-16)
“Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is an antichrist, that denieth the father and the son. Whoever denieth the son, the same hath not the father” (l John 2.22,23)
“I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan …” (Revelation 2.9,10)
“Behold I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews and are not but do lie; behold I will make them to come and worship before thy feet…” (Revelation 3.9)
Origen: “Their rejection of Jesus has resulted in their present calamity and exile. We say with confidence that they will never be restored to their former condition. For they have committed a crime of the most unhallowed kind, in conspiring against the saviour.”
St. Gregory: “ Jews are slayers of the Lord, murderers of the prophets, enemies of God, haters of God, adversaries of grace, enemies of their fathers’ faith, advocates of the devil, brood of vipers, slanderers, scoffers, men of darkened minds, leaven of the Pharisees, congregation of demons, sinners, wicked men, stoners and haters of goodness.”
St. Jerome: “….serpents, haters of all men, their image is Judas … their psalms and prayers are the braying of donkeys..”
St. John Chrysostom: “I know that many people hold a high regard for the Jews and consider their way of life worthy of respect at the present time… This is why I am hurrying to pull up this fatal notion by the roots … A place where a whore stands on display is a whorehouse. What is more, the synagogue is not only a whorehouse and a theater; it is also a den of thieves and a haunt of wild animals … not the cave of a wild animal merely, but of an unclean wild animal … When animals are unfit for work, they are marked for slaughter, and this is the very thing which the Jews have experienced. By making themselves unfit for work, they have become ready for slaughter. This is why Christ said: “ask for my enemies, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them and slay them before me’ (Luke 19.27).”
St. Augustine: “Judaism is a corruption. Indeed Judas is the image of the Jewish people. Their understanding of the Scriptures is carnal. They bear the guilt for the death of the saviour, for through their fathers they have killed the Christ.”
St. Thomas Aquinas: “It would be licit to hold Jews, because of the crimes, in perpetual servitude, and therefore the princes may regard the possessions of Jews as belonging to the State.”
Hitler admired Islam and wished that Germany had had a warrior religion like Islam or the Japanese religion. (Bonhoeffer, page 165)
Hitler even said basically, as he rejected the religion of the history of Germany:
“Why couldn’t we Germans have a manly and warlike religion like Islam or the Japanese religion – one that fights; not the wimpy and weak and meek Christianity.”
“It’s been our misfortune of have the wrong religion. Why didn’t we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammadan religion too would have been much more acceptable to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?”
page 165, “Bonhoeffer, Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy”, by Eric Metaxas
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) said, “The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. “O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.”
حَدَّثَنَا إِسْحَاقُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ، أَخْبَرَنَا جَرِيرٌ، عَنْ عُمَارَةَ بْنِ الْقَعْقَاعِ، عَنْ أَبِي زُرْعَةَ، عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ ـ رضى الله عنه ـ عَنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ “ لاَ تَقُومُ السَّاعَةُ حَتَّى تُقَاتِلُوا الْيَهُودَ حَتَّى يَقُولَ الْحَجَرُ وَرَاءَهُ الْيَهُودِيُّ يَا مُسْلِمُ، هَذَا يَهُودِيٌّ وَرَائِي فَاقْتُلْهُ ”.
Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 2926
In-book reference : Book 56, Hadith 139
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 4, Book 52, Hadith 177
(deprecated numbering scheme)
Ken,
Irregardless of the quotes you have offered from the Hadith, it is only Christianity that stands out among all faith traditions as the worlds greatest and most brutal persecutor of Jews (not to mention all others). Here is a quote for you:
Moses Bazes, author of “Jesus the Jew, the Historical Jesus,” after examining the anti-Semitic statements in the New Testament writes:
“I believe that because of the anti-Jewish narratives of the New Testament, the Jews were hounded from one country to another, denied to live as human beings, denied to work as other people worked, denied to play as others played, were in no country at peace, in no era at peace and finally persecuted and massacred. This was all because of the Christian bigotry and hatred in the name of Jesus. Obviously it cannot be possible to regard Jesus as none other than the scourge of God for the Jews. The tragic existence of the Jews during 1900 years in the Diaspora, the hatred they experienced, the pogroms, persecutions, murders and the destructions they suffered, must be mainly attributed to anti- Jewish statements in the New Testament. Christianity introduced contempt for the Jew and is thus responsible for what happened in the Second World War at the Dachau Concentration camp in Germany and at the Auschwitz concentration camp in Poland. What was started at the Church Council at Nicea in 325 CE was duly completed in the concentration camps and crematories of Christian Germany where six million Jews perished.”
No; they were not Christians at all. The Nazis were just evil and their culture had already turned away from Christ because of all the liberal theology.
Today, Christians try very hard to love the Jewish people and defend them against bigotry and hatred. But it is the Muslim world today that has the most hatred toward the Jews.
Wrong you lose,………. just ask the six million Jews who perished in the Holocaust if the NT was a direct cause of that tragedy or not. You have no right to point fingers!
Christianity grew and was peaceful and persecuted for over 300s – until 312-313 AD with the Edict of Milan and did not become a state church until 380-392 AD, under Theodosius.
So, you are wrong.
The violence done in later centuries was a distortion of Christianity and the Bible; not Christianity at all.
4 40 days the post resurrected jesus told matthew to teach about love and peace?
4 40 days the post resurrected jesus told john to teach about love and peace?
if yes , how comes the anti-jew rhetoric grows from mat to john ?
It is interesting the Islamophobes here are bringing up the hadith about Muslims fighting Jews during end times as evidence of Islam’s antisemitism. Academic studies on this suggest that this hadith heavily borrows from Christian views about the Antichrist and end times. So the antisemitism we see in some hadith is due to Christianity basically. Lol!
not during end times, but from the beginning of Muhammad’s time until the end times.
Hamas uses and quotes these Hadith in their charter as justification and commands for them to fight and kill the Jews NOW until the end times.
That battle in that very hadith is about end of time otherwise is your bluffing.
The Nakba happned before even Hamas was founded .
Those criminals will be judged according OT, NT, and Quran.
Your hypocrisy is unbearable.
This is so dumb. I can’t believe that this person is serious.
There has been a shift in Evangelical theology regarding the question of Jews in the 19th century. The baseless pro-Jewish view is called dispentionalism.
I mean this statement is so stupid. He says Muslims are contradicting themselves for saying that Christians are zionist but the holy books anti-semitic. This implies that (modern) Christians are following their holy books. Christians don’t follow anything. Nowadays the only constant among evangelical Christians is the hate for Islam.
Blogging Theology 
The price you pay when you lose wars of aggression you started.
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Evil remark. If you were a just Christian you should support the Palestinians under brutal occupation.
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When the Arabs relentlessly wage war and lose, what do you expect?
I support democracy (Israel) and not terrorism (Hamas).
Perhaps you ought to try and look at politics without your Islamic glasses? This isn’t the masjid…you only claim to support the Palestinians because they are majority Muslim- be honest
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Your bigotry and hated for Muslims is obvious, I hope one day you will embrace the values of Jesus rather than Donald Trump.
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I find that highly offensive.
Those people are occupiers, and they should leave that land. This is what your scripture say.
Chritstains… I think no one reach the level of your hypocrisy in this issue.
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Paulus is a nasty piece of work, he pretends to follow Jesus but his words suggest he follows the Father of Lies.
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“The price you pay when you lose wars of aggression you started.”
Someone has been fed a lot of propaganda.
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1. The creation of the Israeli state can be seen as an aggression. It came through Jewish immigration and was declared by colonial powers. It is true that Arab nations attacked Israel but the first aggression is the existence of Israel.
2. “Islamic glasses”: through which glasses should Muslims look instead? But when we talk about International Law instead of Islamic law we can still call Israel an aggressor because it was installed through foreign powers and immigration (permitted by foreign powers).
3. Democracy has nothing to do with Christianity. Christianity may accept different kinds of governments as valid but it does not propagate a particular one especially not democracy which could be and is anti-Christian.
Let’s compare democracy (Israel) and terrorism (Hamas/Ghaza) in some issues important for Christianity:
(Israel/Ghaza)
Abortion: legal/forbidden
Sex outside marriage: legal/forbidden
Pornography: legal/forbidden
Prostitution: legal/forbidden
Half-naked women: legal/forbidden
Making fun of God: legal/forbidden
4. According to Christian theology there is nothing worse than a Jew. So how could you as a Christian support a Jewish state anyway?
And yes, I know that American evangelicals some centuries ago have changed the theology not only to tolerate Jews but even to consider their covenant as valid. But this is baseless.
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Oh and I forgot one very important point: homosexuality
Forbidden in Ghaza and legal in Israel. Not only legal but also propagated. After the attack in Orlando netanyahu made a speech in which he said something like: “Let us hug gay people to show them our respect”.
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That land was given to the Jews by God according to the OT, something the Koran agrees with. Stop committing blasphemy Abdullah by questioning the God you declare to believe in.
The Arabs have been offered peace treaties time and time again but continue to kill and maim. I have no sympathy for them when they indoctrinate their children to hate Jews from infant hood- I’ve seen the videos. They have no desire but to continue their anti Semitic rage based on the sunnah. The saddest part is that such evil people are raising innocent kids to hate from the beginning. Islam is rotting their brain.
The Turks joined hitler in their anti Semitic tirade and lost. The Arabs have continued to wage war to this day and lost. Israel is the only bastion of democracy and hope in the ME. Your support of terrorism over democracy shows how fundamentalist Muslims really are when it comes time to choose.
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boring!
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The covenant the Jews had with God is broken according to Islam and Christianity. They have no right to have the holy land according to Islam and Christianity.
Hating Jews is Christian. Islam is not more hostile to Jews than to other non-Muslims. In fact Jews are very similar to Muslims in many aspects. The problem came with Zionism and the fulfillment of the prophecy. But there is no inherent hate for Jews in Islam like in Christianity. Stop projecting the Western and Christian history of antisemitism on Muslims.
democracy, terrorism, antisemitism………
These are all terms with no significance especially from the view of Christianity. The first has nothing to do with it, the second is a meaningless term to describe an enemy in asymmetric warfare or simply to demonize him and the third is one of the pillars of Christianity.
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If, in the course of conversation with anyone who differs on the issue, you have to resort to the standard broad brush Zionist accusations it merely indicates that you have already lost the moral argument.
It is truly amazing how you say that you support freedom and democracy, and yet based on nothing more than your hatred for Muslims you are readily prepared to deny the same freedoms to others. What a shameful attitude for such a “good” Christian as yourself to have,
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he is not a Christian. We shall know them by their fruits. His fruits are toxic.
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Sorry, my last comment was directed @ Paulus
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Those criminal zionists don’t give a S**T to what the Torah says.
That “state” was based on crime not on the perfect law of God.
Those whom you praise their democracy are Devils according to Jesus and the OT.
However, I know that you’re soaked with hypocrisy, so that you cannot say the truth although many non zionist jews state it.
After all, your prophet Paul believed that pagan roman was an authority from God.
Moreover, the land is for the righteous people according to OT,NT, and Quran.
Historically, Muslims have been ruling that land worshiping God of Abraham more than Jews/christians combined.
Even if you didn’t give S**T to what your bible says as most christian zionists, those people would still occupie according to the” international law” .
I’ve no doubt the zionist are criminals .
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@ Paul Williams,
Agreed, Paulus gives real Christians everywhere a bad name.
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Every Muslim is loved by God. Every Muslim should be treated with the same love that Christ has for all human beings; No greater love hath any man than this, that a man lay down His life for his friends.
This expression of love supersedes the Law which told everyone to love one’s neighbor as oneself.
And we know who our neighbors are, correct? All people. All people.
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The first frame is technically misleading. Yes, the area was called Palestine pre 1948, but it had nothing to do with today’s Palestine natinallistically. It was a land ruled by the Turks, then British and inhabited with a multi-national population of Jews, Arabs and Christians. Of course there were native Palestinians who found themselves suddenly living in a Jewish country, but it is wrong to say that their country was taken away from them, since they never had a country to begin with. (This is not to be confused with incidents of mass expulsion of Arab vilages by the Israeli armed forces. I am not defending that, but disputing the claim that Israel “wiped off Palestine from the map”)
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“It was a land ruled by the Turks, then British and inhabited with a multi-national population of Jews, Arabs and Christians.”
– Where do Muslims come into the equation? Are they the ‘Arabs’?
– What about Arabic-speaking Christians? Can’t one be Arab and Christian at the same time? Same for Palestinian Jews.
If anything, it is the so-called Jewish state of Israel that is more multi-national with its settlers from Russia, Poland, Romania, America, France, North Africa, South Africa, to a lesser degree Ethiopia, etc.
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Verdant,
You are right, history didn’t start with the Turks and British.
I think Christians might care more about the plight of the Palestinians, if they actually acted more like their own Prophet Jesus, who stood against the occupation of his Palestinian homeland by the Romans.
Christians should be reminded that Jesus was a Palestinian (thanks to PW for previous post). I am sure Jesus would have spoken out strongly against the mistreatment of the Palestinian people today.
“Jesus was Palestinian and why it matters – Jehanzeb Dar”
http://www.maannews.com/Content.aspx?id=345198
Quote from the article:
Certainly, no person is superior to another based on culture, language, or skin color, but to ignore the way Jesus’ whiteness has been used to subjugate and discriminate against racial minorities in the West and many other countries is to overlook another important aspect of Jesus’ teachings: Love thy neighbor as thyself. Malcolm X wrote about white supremacists and slave-owners using Christianity to justify their “moral” and “racial superiority” over blacks. In Malcolm’s own words, “The Holy Bible in the White man’s hands and its interpretations of it have been the greatest single ideological weapon for enslaving millions of non-white human beings.” Throughout history, whether it was in Jerusalem, Spain, India, Africa, or in the Americas, white so-called “Christians” cultivated a distorted interpretation of religion that was compatible with their racist, colonialist agenda.
And here we are in the 21st century where Islamophobia (also stemming from racism because the religion of Islam gets racialized) is on the rise; where people calling themselves “Christian” fear to have a black president; where members of the KKK and anti-immigration movements behave as if Jesus were an intolerant white American racist who only spoke English despite being born in the Middle East. It is astonishing how so-called “Christians” like Ann Coulter call Muslims “rag-heads” when in actuality, Jesus himself would fit the profile of a “rag-head,” too. As would Moses, Joseph, Abraham, and the rest of the Prophets (peace be upon them all). As William Rivers Pitt writes:
The ugly truth which never even occurs to most Americans is that Jesus looked a lot more like an Iraqi, like an Afghani, like a Palestinian, like an Arab, than any of the paintings which grace the walls of American churches from sea to shining sea.
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Paulus, according to Jesus what should people do in the face of occupation?
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Paulus doesn’t follow Jesus. It’s all a pretence.
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I am not one to advocate violence, but in the bible JESUS says:
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. ~ Luke 22:36
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Defending terrorism again Kmak?
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Paulus the fake Christian lol
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Paulus: Defending terrorism again Kmak?
Asking what would Jesus say/do is defending terrorism?
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@ Rider,
who said:
“democracy, terrorism, antisemitism………
These are all terms with no significance especially from the view of Christianity. The first has nothing to do with it, the second is a meaningless term to describe an enemy in asymmetric warfare or simply to demonize him and the third is one of the pillars of Christianity.”
I reply, from a biblical point of view that’s all nonsense.
There is no salvation and no church without the Jews. They are it’s foundation.
The evangelical church of today loves the Jews. If anything they could be criticized for over-loving the Jews, if that were possible.
Just read Romans 10.and 11:
All Israel Shall Be Saved
Romans 11 v 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
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Was Hitler over-loving the Jews? With friends like that who needs the evangelical Church?
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This is called dispensationalism. This is not classical Christian theology.
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” All Israel Shall Be Saved”
Oh!
Jesus must have been wrong then ( Matthew 8:11-12)
” IAnd I tell you this, that many Gentiles will come from all over the world–from east and west–and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob at the feast in the Kingdom of Heaven.
But many Israelites–those for whom the Kingdom was prepared–WILL BE THROWN into outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth”
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Zionism is a legitimate hope based on the OT.
Muslims want to conquer the whole world based on their scriptures.
Just depends on your starting point.
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Let’s say Muslims want to conquer the whole world. What should Christians do according to Jesus? Turn the other cheek?
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But Israel is a secular liberal state. It is not based on the law from the Old Testament. By this fact it would lose the legitimation even if it had any from a Christian or Jewish point of view.
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Erasmus,
I would like to think, and I can only hope and pray, that there are some good Jews and Christians out there who would have the intelligence to differentiate between a “legitimate” form of peaceful non-violent Spiritual Zionism, and the immoral physical usurpation of a land, through the brutal, unjust, program of ethnic and racial cleansing of an entire population of “undesirables.”
In regard to modern day Muslims wanting to conquer the whole world…..your Islamophobia has been noted.
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‘Democracy’… my foot. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CtadrWzWYAAI7hf.jpg
You are a supporter of anti-Semitic colonial terrorism.
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@ the unchristlike Paulus
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How can those criminals escape from yom al qyamah ? They will be judged.
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Let’s be honest here: Muslims aren’t interested in justice or any suffering caused by the Hamas war against democratic Israel. Muslims are upset because the kafir are dominant. If you actually cared about Palestinian suffering you would be speaking out against the terrorist indoctrination poured into their children through education and television, which is the root cause of their suffering. Israel has offered peace time and time again. Every time Hamas has broken the treaty.
You hypocrites have your blood boiling because Allah has let you down. Islam and Muslims are being ruled by democracy, truth and justice, and you can’t stand it.
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Hamas was once Israel’s asset against Fatah. But would someone uncritically swallowing then regurgitating propaganda know?
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Let’s be honest here: Muslims aren’t interested in justice or any suffering caused by the Hamas war against democratic Israel. Muslims are upset because the kafir are dominant. If you actually cared about Palestinian suffering you would be speaking out against the terrorist indoctrination poured into their children through education and television, which is the root cause of their suffering. Israel has offered peace time and time again. Every time Hamas has broken the treaty.
You hypocrites have your blood boiling because Allah has let you down. Islam and Muslims are being ruled by democracy, truth and justice, and you can’t stand it.
Paul, why try to block me?
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Believe me, even jews in that “state” know that you are just ass kissers.
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I don’t see any benefit in discussing this Paulus guy. He makes only non-Christian arguments against Islam and keeps repeating them. Everyone already knows the secular liberal views. You are simply pretending as if they are Christian. Everything you say without authentic references from Christian sources is totally worthless.
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Exactly. He is a troll.
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“Israel has offered peace time and time again. Every time Hamas has broken the treaty.”
this is the same shitty propaganda used to excuse the crimes of yhwh in the ot.
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Propaganda is that which is found in the masjid and uncritically adopted by Muslims, namely, the kafir ought not to rule the Muslim. This propaganda leads to terrorism and its support from commentators seen here.
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The meme and graphic is simplistic because it leaves out the previous history of the Ottoman Empire and the fact that the Ottoman Turks were the sovereign political country of the area that was called Palestine by the Romans, but was never a separate political entity with borders or state government over the area. There was no “Palestine” as a political country; it was an area under the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Turks were the country over that area until 1918 – after the Ottoman Turks were defeated, and since they joined with Germany in World War 1, they were justly punished for that and the land was under the British mandate until 1948. But World War 2 broke out and lots of Jews were fleeing the Holocaust in Germany, Poland and other areas to try and get back to their land that they had from Joshua’s time to 70 AD. (off and on with Babylonian Exile, Greek and Roman occupation, etc.)
I am not defending everything Israel does; but it was the Arab Muslims who did not accept even giving the Jews ANY of the land in 1948; and they were the ones who kept attacking first and they kept loosing more territory each time.
I don’t believe 1948 was a fulfillment of prophesy, as many Evangelicals do; but it seems like a just thing for them to have their historical homeland back, from a human justice point of view; and God allowed them to gain back more and more of that land as time goes on.
Hamas has the famous Hadiths in their charter: “Fight the Jews until the day of resurrection” and “a tree or rock will say, “there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him”, etc. – that is very bad and inherently anti-Jewish in the texts of Islam.
“fight the Jews until the day of resurrection” Sahih Al-Bukhari; Vol. 4, Book 52, Hadith 177; Sahih Muslim 2922
It seems obvious that Islam itself has within it an Anti-Jewish basis for it’s never even allowing the Jews to have any of that land back.
Omar, the 2nd Caliph, attacked and took over the land around 636-639 AD and beyond and so Islam unjustly took the area from the Byzantines, who had the land after the Roman Empire became Christianized from the early centuries.
If the Arab Muslims had been more gracious at the beginning, and stopped attacking, and allowed Israel to have that part of the 1948 2 state plan, maybe they would have a more stable and fuller Palestine today. But once they kept attacking and doing terrorism all these years, both PLO and Yasser Arafat era and especially Hamas, and they quote those Hadiths all the time, Israel had no choice but to defend itself. (sometimes they go overboard, but one cannot expect them to be “angels”, given their history of so many other peoples wanting to destroy them (Haman in book of Esther, Roman Catholics in middle ages; Stalin, Hitler, and now Hamas and Hezbollah and some other smaller Jihadi groups.)
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::: “fight the Jews until the day of resurrection” Sahih Al-Bukhari; Vol. 4, Book 52, Hadith 177; Sahih Muslim 2922
Great misquote! “The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews …” It’s basically saying that one of the signs of the Last Hour is that Muslims will fight against some Jews, not that we as Muslims should fight them. It does not even speak about the cause of this war.
::: Omar, the 2nd Caliph, attacked and took over the land around 636-639 AD and beyond and so Islam unjustly took the area from the Byzantines, who had the land after the Roman Empire became Christianized from the early centuries.
This is just straight ignorance, what did Heracle order right before the Muslim conquests? That ALL JEWS BE FORCIBLY CONVERTED. Why didn’t this happen? Because right after there were these conquests, and Jews were accorded freedom. Please learn your history, here’s a decent lecture about that if you’re interested in learning something: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCjeQ15CelE
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“fight the Jews until the day of resurrection”
Where can I find this “hadith” ?
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It does not say “some”.
Hamas uses those texts as justification for fighting and killing the Jews and for the belief that that fight to the death must go on now all the way to the end of time.
Furthermore, there are so many of those Hadith, it is ridiculous.
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There is a lot of them. Here are some from Sahih Al Bukhari and Sahih Muslim
“The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (the Boxthorn tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.
(related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).
Sahih Muslim, 41:6985,
see also Sahih Muslim, 41:6981,
Sahih Muslim, 41:6982,
Sahih Muslim, 41:6983,
Sahih Muslim, 41:6984,
Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:56:791,
(Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:52:177)
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And yet the NT is possibly the most Anti-Semitic book ever written.
ANTI-SEMITISM IN THE NEW TESTAMENT
http://jdstone.org/cr/files/antisemitisminthenewtestament_1.html
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How could this hadith turn to be “fight the Jews until the day of resurrection”?
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Another one:
http://sunnah.com/bukhari/56/139
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) said, “The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. “O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.”
حَدَّثَنَا إِسْحَاقُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ، أَخْبَرَنَا جَرِيرٌ، عَنْ عُمَارَةَ بْنِ الْقَعْقَاعِ، عَنْ أَبِي زُرْعَةَ، عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ ـ رضى الله عنه ـ عَنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ “ لاَ تَقُومُ السَّاعَةُ حَتَّى تُقَاتِلُوا الْيَهُودَ حَتَّى يَقُولَ الْحَجَرُ وَرَاءَهُ الْيَهُودِيُّ يَا مُسْلِمُ، هَذَا يَهُودِيٌّ وَرَائِي فَاقْتُلْهُ ”.
Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 2926
In-book reference : Book 56, Hadith 139
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 4, Book 52, Hadith 177
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Ken has no problem with Jesus slaughtering untold millions of people in the book of Revelation.
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That is called judgment and justice at the end of time, which you also believe in.
Revelation 19:11 – He wages just and righteous war. (at end of time right before judgment – everyone must stand before the throne of God and be judged).
You also believe in that.
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so you justify Jesus slaughtering millions if it is in your Scripture – classic double standards. And no we do not believe in your book of Revelation which Christians have mistakenly thought to be by St John the apostle. It was not.
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“Christianity grew and was peaceful and persecuted for over 300s”
Total myth.
Go read the brilliant debunking of this unhistorical claim by a top scholar:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Myth-Persecution-Candida-Moss/dp/0062104551
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I have read some of that. She spins things a lot. One of her main points was that the persecution was not all the time at the same intensity, (true) but sporadic; but there were definite times of established persecution. Another point was that some of the stories were centuries later fabricated; but the main ones are true.
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so a lot of what Christians call persecution are in fact made up tall stories. We see the same in the NT of course: fabricated authorship claims.
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which ones?
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These 9 periods of persecution are well established and documented.
Even Moss cannot dismiss them. Her point is that the persecution by not always Empire wide nor constant all the time, but off and on and sporadic.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/history/issues/issue-27/persecution-in-early-church-gallery-of-persecuting-emperors.html
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a point you always omit to mention Ken. And the made up stories..
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One would have to document which ones are imbellished or made up on a case by case basis. Polycarp and Ignatius and Cyprian are documented; Tertullian documented several of them in N. Africa and the Lyons one is famous and well documented. and others are documented. Nero, Domitian, Septimus, etc. and Decius’ persecution is known by all (250), Valerian (257-258) and the worst one by Diocletian and Gallerious in 303-312 AD.
https://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/10/academic-review-of-moss-myth-of-persecution
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Another good review of Moss’s exaggerated and flawed book:
http://www.reformation21.org/articles/the-myth-of-persecution.php
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Yes that hadith is very authentic. I’m asking about this one “fight the Jews until the day of resurrection” ?
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same one
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Sorry ,but you are lying.
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The Qur’an in Surah 9:28-30 does not say fight the Christians because they persecute the Jews (regarding the ruling of Heraclius of his decree that Jews are to be converted).
Theodosius (380-392 AD), Justinian (527-565 AD)and Heraclius (610-641 AD) were wrong in their theocratic principles. (total marriage of church and state) – that was not Biblical anyway.
Ibn Kathir gives the real reason for why the Muslims unjustly attacked and conquered the Byzantine Empire:
What is really interesting is verse 28 – “if you fear poverty, soon Allah will enrich you”. the reason for that was because Muhammad had conquered the Hijaz (the Arabian peninsula, especially around Mecca and Medina, and no pagans or idol worshippers were allowed. That means the Muslims could not get tax or penalty money from the pagans. Surah 9:5 – “fight the unbelievers where ever you find them”, proves this, and several Hadith that says “no two religions will be allowed on the Arabian peninsula” see Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 288, and other Hadiths, quoted at the bottom of this article *) They were all killed or driven out or converted to Islam. So now, there is no revenue from the pilgrimmages, so, according to verses 28-29, they will allow the Christians and Jews to be in the Islamic state, provided they surrender and don’t fight/resist, and pay the Jiziye with humiliation, and they cannot evangelize or build new churches or even criticize Islam.
Qur’an 9:28—O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.
Qur’an 9:29—Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
Qur’an 9:30—The Jews call Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is a saying from their mouth; (In this) they but imitate what the Unbelievers of old used to say. Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
Ibn Kathir, The Battles of the Prophet, pp. 183-4— “Allah, Most High, ordered the believers to prohibit the disbelievers from entering or coming near the sacred Mosque. On that, Quraish thought that this would reduce their profits from trade. Therefore, Allah, Most High, compensated them and ordered them to fight the people of the Book until they embrace Islam or pay the Jizyah. Allah says, “O ye who believe! Truly the pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” Therefore, the Messenger of Allah decided to fight the Romans in order to call them to Islam.”
Tafsir Ibn Kathir (on Qur’an 9:30)—”Fighting the Jews and Christians is legislated because they are idolaters and disbelievers. Allah the Exalted encourages the believers to fight the polytheists, disbelieving Jews and Christians, who uttered this terrible statement and utter lies against Allah, the Exalted. As for the Jews, they claimed that Uzayr was the son of God, Allah is free of what they attribute to Him. As for the misguidance of Christians over Isa, it is obvious.”
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“The children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 8.12)
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold your house is left unto you desolate.” (Matthew 23.37,38) Then answered all the people (Jews) and said, “His blood be on us and on our children” (Matthew 27:25). 1 “But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you to councils, and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten” (Mark 13.9)
“He that believeth not shall be damned” (Mark 16.16)
“Ye are of your father the devil and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And I say the truth, why do you not believe me? He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8.43-47)
“Stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so you do. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which showed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers” (Acts 7.51-53)
“It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing you put it from you and judge yourself unworthy of everlasting life, we turn to the Gentiles” (Acts 13.45-51)
“For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake … wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.” (Titus 1.10-14).
“The Jews, who both killed the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God and are contrary to all men: forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins always: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.” (l Thessalonians 2.14-16)
“Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is an antichrist, that denieth the father and the son. Whoever denieth the son, the same hath not the father” (l John 2.22,23)
“I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan …” (Revelation 2.9,10)
“Behold I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews and are not but do lie; behold I will make them to come and worship before thy feet…” (Revelation 3.9)
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And here is what your Church fathers had to say:
Origen: “Their rejection of Jesus has resulted in their present calamity and exile. We say with confidence that they will never be restored to their former condition. For they have committed a crime of the most unhallowed kind, in conspiring against the saviour.”
St. Gregory: “ Jews are slayers of the Lord, murderers of the prophets, enemies of God, haters of God, adversaries of grace, enemies of their fathers’ faith, advocates of the devil, brood of vipers, slanderers, scoffers, men of darkened minds, leaven of the Pharisees, congregation of demons, sinners, wicked men, stoners and haters of goodness.”
St. Jerome: “….serpents, haters of all men, their image is Judas … their psalms and prayers are the braying of donkeys..”
St. John Chrysostom: “I know that many people hold a high regard for the Jews and consider their way of life worthy of respect at the present time… This is why I am hurrying to pull up this fatal notion by the roots … A place where a whore stands on display is a whorehouse. What is more, the synagogue is not only a whorehouse and a theater; it is also a den of thieves and a haunt of wild animals … not the cave of a wild animal merely, but of an unclean wild animal … When animals are unfit for work, they are marked for slaughter, and this is the very thing which the Jews have experienced. By making themselves unfit for work, they have become ready for slaughter. This is why Christ said: “ask for my enemies, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them and slay them before me’ (Luke 19.27).”
St. Augustine: “Judaism is a corruption. Indeed Judas is the image of the Jewish people. Their understanding of the Scriptures is carnal. They bear the guilt for the death of the saviour, for through their fathers they have killed the Christ.”
St. Thomas Aquinas: “It would be licit to hold Jews, because of the crimes, in perpetual servitude, and therefore the princes may regard the possessions of Jews as belonging to the State.”
I wont even discus what Martin Luther taught..
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Hitler admired Islam and wished that Germany had had a warrior religion like Islam or the Japanese religion. (Bonhoeffer, page 165)
Hitler even said basically, as he rejected the religion of the history of Germany:
“Why couldn’t we Germans have a manly and warlike religion like Islam or the Japanese religion – one that fights; not the wimpy and weak and meek Christianity.”
“It’s been our misfortune of have the wrong religion. Why didn’t we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammadan religion too would have been much more acceptable to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?”
page 165, “Bonhoeffer, Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy”, by Eric Metaxas
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Hitler was right about some things it seems. The church is mostly made up of older women. Islam attracts the young of both sexes.
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Wow; what a confession!
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Another one:
http://sunnah.com/bukhari/56/139
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) said, “The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. “O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.”
حَدَّثَنَا إِسْحَاقُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ، أَخْبَرَنَا جَرِيرٌ، عَنْ عُمَارَةَ بْنِ الْقَعْقَاعِ، عَنْ أَبِي زُرْعَةَ، عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ ـ رضى الله عنه ـ عَنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ “ لاَ تَقُومُ السَّاعَةُ حَتَّى تُقَاتِلُوا الْيَهُودَ حَتَّى يَقُولَ الْحَجَرُ وَرَاءَهُ الْيَهُودِيُّ يَا مُسْلِمُ، هَذَا يَهُودِيٌّ وَرَائِي فَاقْتُلْهُ ”.
Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 2926
In-book reference : Book 56, Hadith 139
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 4, Book 52, Hadith 177
(deprecated numbering scheme)
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Ken,
Irregardless of the quotes you have offered from the Hadith, it is only Christianity that stands out among all faith traditions as the worlds greatest and most brutal persecutor of Jews (not to mention all others). Here is a quote for you:
Moses Bazes, author of “Jesus the Jew, the Historical Jesus,” after examining the anti-Semitic statements in the New Testament writes:
“I believe that because of the anti-Jewish narratives of the New Testament, the Jews were hounded from one country to another, denied to live as human beings, denied to work as other people worked, denied to play as others played, were in no country at peace, in no era at peace and finally persecuted and massacred. This was all because of the Christian bigotry and hatred in the name of Jesus. Obviously it cannot be possible to regard Jesus as none other than the scourge of God for the Jews. The tragic existence of the Jews during 1900 years in the Diaspora, the hatred they experienced, the pogroms, persecutions, murders and the destructions they suffered, must be mainly attributed to anti- Jewish statements in the New Testament. Christianity introduced contempt for the Jew and is thus responsible for what happened in the Second World War at the Dachau Concentration camp in Germany and at the Auschwitz concentration camp in Poland. What was started at the Church Council at Nicea in 325 CE was duly completed in the concentration camps and crematories of Christian Germany where six million Jews perished.”
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No; they were not Christians at all. The Nazis were just evil and their culture had already turned away from Christ because of all the liberal theology.
Today, Christians try very hard to love the Jewish people and defend them against bigotry and hatred. But it is the Muslim world today that has the most hatred toward the Jews.
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had nothing to do with the Council of Nicea in 325 AD. What a stupid article!
that discredits the whole thing.
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Ken,
Sorry, but you can’t white wash the unjust brutality and anti-Semitism so easily from Christian History.
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We don’t regard the early church fathers as infallible; and those statement were sinful and wrong.
Only the Bible is infallible.
Those verses are not about all Jews nor are they commands to fight them or kill them. Yet the Qur’an commands Muslims to fight and kill people.
The New Testament never does.
You lost that argument.
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Wrong you lose,………. just ask the six million Jews who perished in the Holocaust if the NT was a direct cause of that tragedy or not. You have no right to point fingers!
“Bible……infallible” LOL!!
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Christianity grew and was peaceful and persecuted for over 300s – until 312-313 AD with the Edict of Milan and did not become a state church until 380-392 AD, under Theodosius.
So, you are wrong.
The violence done in later centuries was a distortion of Christianity and the Bible; not Christianity at all.
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”
Christianity grew and was peaceful and…”
4 40 days the post resurrected jesus told matthew to teach about love and peace?
4 40 days the post resurrected jesus told john to teach about love and peace?
if yes , how comes the anti-jew rhetoric grows from mat to john ?
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and another review.
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/the-myth-of-persecution
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It is interesting the Islamophobes here are bringing up the hadith about Muslims fighting Jews during end times as evidence of Islam’s antisemitism. Academic studies on this suggest that this hadith heavily borrows from Christian views about the Antichrist and end times. So the antisemitism we see in some hadith is due to Christianity basically. Lol!
Click to access MQ40170.pdf
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not during end times, but from the beginning of Muhammad’s time until the end times.
Hamas uses and quotes these Hadith in their charter as justification and commands for them to fight and kill the Jews NOW until the end times.
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That battle in that very hadith is about end of time otherwise is your bluffing.
The Nakba happned before even Hamas was founded .
Those criminals will be judged according OT, NT, and Quran.
Your hypocrisy is unbearable.
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Temple: not during end times, but from the beginning of Muhammad’s time until the end times.
Muhammad’s mission began in Mecca where there were no Jews.
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Ken, stop making ignorant claims about Islam and Jews but tell us rather what Christian theologians before the 19th century said about Jews?
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Brilliant coordination of a statement with the most fitting photo. Mashallah brilliant.
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I am referring to Paul’s post….did not have time to read the comments.
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Walking contradictions:
On the one hand us Christians are apparently brainwashed zionists, and yet you say our holy books is outrageously anti Semitic.
Which is it Muslims? The latter would exclude the former, thus making you irrational nonsense pointless
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This is so dumb. I can’t believe that this person is serious.
There has been a shift in Evangelical theology regarding the question of Jews in the 19th century. The baseless pro-Jewish view is called dispentionalism.
I mean this statement is so stupid. He says Muslims are contradicting themselves for saying that Christians are zionist but the holy books anti-semitic. This implies that (modern) Christians are following their holy books. Christians don’t follow anything. Nowadays the only constant among evangelical Christians is the hate for Islam.
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point proven- according to you, Christians don’t follow anything, yet we are pro Jewish because of dispensationalism.
How can we be dispensationalists if we don’t follow anything? Dumb meet dumber.
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Temple: not during end times, but from the beginning of Muhammad’s time until the end times.
Muhammad’s mission began in Mecca where there were no Jews.
You are right, I should not include the Meccan period from 610-622 AD. OK, sometime after 622 AD.
OK, so it began after the Medina period and after the Battle of the Trench and massacre of 600 Jews (627 AD) and the battle of Khaybar. (628 AD)
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what do you care about massacring the jews?
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Ephesians 2:11-21
Revelation 5:9
Revelation 7:9
1 John 4:7-21
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