As one Muslim gently put it: ‘The existence of Muslims like this explains why we’re basically screwed’
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Blogging Theology 
http://www.facebook.com/themuslimvibe/videos/725977044223966/
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I think there’s nothing funny here, br.Paul.
IMO, Shism is a threat. They spread shirk in the name of Islam.
Anyone has the basic knowledge of shia’s beliefs, he knows what I’m talking about.
May Allaah guide us to his straight path.
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Oh dear.
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The discussion is open if you want 🙂 I will not go beyond their (history, books, and acts today).
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By basic knowledge you mean islamqa? Try researching Shia Islam academically instead of bigoted Sunni lenses.
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Kamak,
As I know Islamqa doesn’t put any answer without sources. In that sence, tha web is very good source academically. It’s a better source than ( god spoke to me/ I saw in my dream) .
However, if anyone wants to argue about shism, I’m ready to prove my point.
I know what I’m talking about.
We have big differences, and we should be open about that. That by itself has nothing to do with bigotry.
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There is nothing worth researching about the Shia. You can’t understand the problem when thinking normally. Shia can be everything and nothing. It can only be understood in the context of a satanic plot.
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Br. Yahya ,
Thank you for the clarification. I got your point, and I agree with you in some extent. However, I think you know that the majority of muslims populations are not living in the west where the secularism is really the threat muslims could face everyday. Shism (i.e the twelver), on the ther hand, is really a big threat and must be considered where most muslims live. Iran has a big project to export that evil doctrines in almost all Islamic countries. So far, 4 of major Islamic countries’s capitals have fallen under its authority which are ( Baghdad, Damscus, Beirut, and Sana).
Also, Iran sends missionaries supported by millions in West Africa ( Nigeria , Algeria, and Tunisia). It sends missianries to Indonesia and Malaysia. It has centers in many Islamic countries such as Sudan & Djibouti.
Their crimes in Iraq to change the demographic population are more than clear.
Just listen to their media which are by tens of TV channels multi languages which have been burst after the fell of Iraq. It is an invitation to a clear shirk.
It’s all about how to divinize the 12 imams.
==================
Regarding Shia history,
Yes at the begining of 3 centuries of Islam, it was a mere political issue. Even today some sects of Shism is just a form of difference in some peripheral issues such ( Zaidi Shia) .
However and from very beginning, the seed of that cult ( twelver one) began from a man called Abdullah ibn Saba’ whose role was like Paul in Christianity. That man was a jew from Yemen converted to Islam from. He is the first one claimed that Ali is somehow divine , and Ali is like Joshua who came after Moses. That cult ( which was a group of men) came to Ali , yet Ali burned them when he asked them to repent, but didn’t. Also, that’s why in hadith of Sahih Bukhari, Abdulaah ibn Abbas was upset that Ali used the fire to kill them since Ibn Abbas had heard from the prophet pbut it’s forbidden to punish by fire. That satanic seed was demolished by the prophet’s companions, yet it returnes with many forms later ( specifically in the first 5th century of Islamic calnder) when the twelver shia just began to take its shape as separate religion. Moreover, many recognized religions now are just offshoots of that movement such as Duruz and Bahai.
Finally, if anyone wants to discuss Shia’s beliefs ( i.e. twrlever) by details, I’m ready to prove that it has nothing to do with Islam.
It’s enough to know that they don’t have any hadith even ONE attributed to the prophet pbuh authentically according to THEIR standards for sahih hadiths. In fact, they don’t have hadith science as Al hurr Alamly stated in his book ( Alwasai’l ) to begin with!
Al kumini,whom Iran is obsessed spreading his ideas, in his book ( Asrar Fatimah) stated that ” Fatima( ra), the daughter of the prophet pbuh, is not just a woman rather she’s a DIVINE BEING manifested in a appearance of woman” .
I just scratched the surface of that religion and what it teaches just to know that the difference between us is in the CORE of Islam.
And Allah knows the best.
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Abdullah, what makes a writing academic are not only sources but also the soundness of methodology and reception among peers. Islamqa’s take on Shiite history is basically polemics. Your take on Shiite history is no different. Here’s a scholarly take on this subject:
https://www.amazon.com/Charismatic-Community-Shiite-Identity-Early/dp/0791470342/ref=la_B001JRX7VC_1_1/162-9867616-5306049?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1478354266&sr=1-1#productDescription_secondary_view_div_1478354533040
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I’m aware of the western centricity in thinking and writing. Somehow, anything comes from the western side is ” divine” although I really appreciate shoclars such as Mria Dakake. However, It’s not necessarily everything they purplish is true. Indeed , it’s a fact when you see some scholars in the west have come to conclusions that Mecca is not Mecca that Quran talks about or Taif is not the city that we know rather it’s another city, all of these silly conclusions are product of bigotry in scholar domains in the west somehow.
Moreover, I’m talking about Shia ( creeds ) that they defend not the allegations against them that they deny. For example, they proudly believe that ( all ) companions of the prophet including his wives are apostates except 4.
They believe proudly that Ali the one who has the authority to enter anyone he wants Pradise, and anyone he wants to hell.
I’m happy to be corrected!
If you want I can post a video where some of their satans says that no one can able to do anything in this era even Allah except the 12th Imam who has the authority to do so!
===============
BYT , read what Maria Dakake said in ” what the ( word of God ) might mean in Quran althogh it is not Islamic” in the major book ( The Study Quran) .
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Abdullah, you have no idea what you’re talking about.
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Kmak,
Don’t worry! Just disprove what you think I got it worng.
I believe I made my case very clearly why I think Shia is very threat to Islam, especially in this time.
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and follow not the footsteps of ‘Shaitan’ (Satan). Surely he is to you an open enemy” (Quran, Surah Al-Anaam: 142).
“Surely, Shaitan (Satan) is an enemy to you, so take (treat) him as an enemy. He only invites his Hizb (followers) that they may become the dwellers of the blazing Fire” (Surah Faatir 35:6).
My sense is this guy is a madkhali. Their job seems to be insult anyone and everyone.
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I think this brother has been caught up in propaganda rhetoric coming out of Saudi Arabia. They are constantly in tension with Iran and are currently at war, a real war in which Saudi are suspected to be using illegal cluster bombs, with the Houthi movement which supports Yemen’s Shia minority.
Maybe somebody living on the border of Saudi Arabia would say such about the Shia but this guy is a Londoner. He really just needs to look around him and see the big threat globally is secularism – they are threatening every religious community.
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Br. Yahya , if you think the difference between shia and sunni is just iranian- saudi issue, then absolutely you don’t know about the reality of shism with all respect.
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Secularism is the big threat. In fact it’s not a threat only but it is already established.
But it is wrong to not see Shiism as a part of secularism.
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Br. Abdullah,
I think you have misunderstood me.
I agree this is not just a political issue – there’s theology involved. When the Shia schism initially began it was solely a political movement and later it became a religious schism too. I am not a Shia and have no desire in becoming one.
My point is, this brother got this rhetoric of Shiism being the biggest threat from Muslims in a region where the biggest existential threat is from the Shia ie. in areas of Saudi Arabia and Iraq.
BUT brother, please recognise the problem of a British Muslim activist speaking to young British Muslims and telling them the Shia are the biggest threat. There is hardly any Shia here and to be honest, I don’t even recall the last time I ever met a Shia. Not only that, I’ve never been asked to convert to Shiism. I suspect this is the exact same situation for the vast majority of Brother Imran Ibn Mansur’s audience and followers. The same would apply for Muslims in America and other English speaking countries.
The Shia aren’t the BIGGEST threat in those places. The Shia aren’t even close. It’s Western secularism that’s easily the big problem.
Just look at what this movement did to the Church in Europe, there is hardly any real Christians left in the UK. It used to be a Christian country and now it’s not. Think about that.
Br. Imran’s comment would not make sense to his audience. Hence why somebody is ridiculing him for that comment.
I think this is all about geographical location, maybe somebody living in an area in Indonesia or Pakistan where the Ahmadiyyah are predominant they may think the Ahmadiyya are the biggest threat because they are blinkered by their surroundings but once they take a step back and look at all the mosaic rather than just the piece around their location they will see a different menacing figure casting a shadow over the Ummah; Western secularism.
Br. Imran needs to take that step back and look at the bigger picture
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Abdullah
November 5, 2016 • 1:02 pm
Br. Yahya ,
Thank you for the clarification. I got your point, and I agree with you in some extent. However, I think you know that the majority of muslims populations are not living in the west where the secularism is really the threat muslims could face everyday. Shism (i.e the twelver), on the ther hand, is really a big threat and must be considered where most muslims live. Iran has a big project to export that evil doctrines in almost all Islamic countries. So far, 4 of major Islamic countries’s capitals have fallen under its authority which are ( Baghdad, Damscus, Beirut, and Sana).
Also, Iran sends missionaries supported by millions in West Africa ( Nigeria , Algeria, and Tunisia). It sends missianries to Indonesia and Malaysia. It has centers in many Islamic countries such as Sudan & Djibouti.
Their crimes in Iraq to change the demographic population are more than clear.
Just listen to their media which are by tens of TV channels multi languages which have been burst after the fell of Iraq. It is an invitation to a clear shirk.
It’s all about how to divinize the 12 imams.
==================
Regarding Shia history,
Yes at the begining of 3 centuries of Islam, it was a mere political issue. Even today some sects of Shism is just a form of difference in some peripheral issues such ( Zaidi Shia) .
However and from very beginning, the seed of that cult ( twelver one) began from a man called Abdullah ibn Saba’ whose role was like Paul in Christianity. That man was a jew from Yemen converted to Islam from. He is the first one claimed that Ali is somehow divine , and Ali is like Joshua who came after Moses. That cult ( which was a group of men) came to Ali , yet Ali burned them when he asked them to repent, but didn’t. Also, that’s why in hadith of Sahih Bukhari, Abdulaah ibn Abbas was upset that Ali used the fire to kill them since Ibn Abbas had heard from the prophet pbut it’s forbidden to punish by fire. That satanic seed was demolished by the prophet’s companions, yet it returnes with many forms later ( specifically in the first 5th century of Islamic calnder) when the twelver shia just began to take its shape as separate religion. Moreover, many recognized religions now are just offshoots of that movement such as Duruz and Bahai.
Finally, if anyone wants to discuss Shia’s beliefs ( i.e. twrlever) by details, I’m ready to prove that it has nothing to do with Islam.
It’s enough to know that they don’t have any hadith even ONE attributed to the prophet pbuh authentically according to THEIR standards for sahih hadiths. In fact, they don’t have hadith science as Al hurr Alamly stated in his book ( Alwasai’l ) to begin with!
Al kumini,whom Iran is obsessed spreading his ideas, in his book ( Asrar Fatimah) stated that ” Fatima( ra), the daughter of the prophet pbuh, is not just a woman rather she’s a DIVINE BEING manifested in a appearance of woman” .
I just scratched the surface of that religion and what it teaches just to know that the difference between us is in the CORE of Islam.
And Allah knows the best.
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I’m curious to understand how secularism is a ‘threat’.
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The biggest threat to Muslims has to be the campaign of division and destruction that killed millions and millions of Muslims.
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Does the Quran say who is the biggest threat to believers?
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good question.
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Quran does say is our clear enemy ( udu-um mobeen) is the shaitan. and all the enemies of Islam, to some extent are partly inspired by shaitan. so we can say that shaitan is indeed our greatest enemy.
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I don’t know much about these issues, so I am asking questions to learn.
When the Shia pray at dead saints graves (the 12 (or 7ers or 5ers) Imams, their children, family of the prophet, etc.) are they praying to them as mediators, believing them to be closer to Allah?
Is that the main thing that is considered Shirk, (by Sunnis) and spreading that practice?
If so, that seems to be similar to Roman Catholicism in that way.
What other believes and practices are considered wrong by the Sunnis in Shiite Islam?
When Abu Bakr was elected Caliph, how many leaders were behind that decision?
What are the Hadith sources on that?
I have read that Ali hesitated to give his allegiance to Abu Bakr – was Ali waiting the whole time through his, Omar’s, and Uthman’s reigns as Caliph until he could become Caliph ?
The conflict between Ali and Muawiya is difficult to understand.
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Roman catholics have the most heritage of christianity including many manuscripts that you proud of. They are the majority in Christianity.
The evangelical Christianity, however, in US, UK, AUS, and CAN is very new strain and everyone has its own interpretation.
Twelver Shia which we are talking about is a sect with many others sects froming Shiasim which is as whole just 10% of the Islamic population.
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Secularism has already engulfed Christianity. The only faith can face that threat is Islam ,and I think the west realizes this fact.
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No; there was no Pope or Roman Catholicism in the early centuries, no over-exalting of Mary and understanding her as sinless and bodily assumed into heaven, no purgatory, no indulgences, etc. – these things came about slowly after the 4th and 5th centuries and developed slowly into the Middle ages.
The early centuries were “catholic” (universal) yes, but not “Roman Catholic” (Pope as bishop of Rome over all other bishops) – even the Eastern Orthodox know this.
But my question is when Shias pray to dead saints and have shrines to Imams, etc. (Ali, Hossein, Imam Reza in Mashad, Iran, etc.) are they praying to their spirits as mediators?
Do they think these dead people are closer to Allah?
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Ask a shia.
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Most Iranians I know are former Shias and hate religion and have turned away from Islam all together, because of what the Ayatollah Khomeini did in Iran, etc. Many are secularists and agnostic and atheists. Some have converted to Christ and Christianity.
They don’t even like talking about it and it gets them emotional because they feel the Iranian Revolution of 1979 ruined their country. The question always turns to poltitics and gets side-tracked.
I was wondering what the official stance of Sunni is and how Sunnis understand what they are doing.
And is there anything else that Sunnis consider Shirk that Shias do?
They claim that they (the Imams and dead saints) are mediators that are closer to Allah.
They don’t claim they are Allah Himself, so how is that Shirk ?
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The bearer of God was a title given to Mary in the very early of Christianity . Many supplications were recited to her in very early age of Christianity. Many of the curch fathers adpoted icons and statues. Roman cathloism thinks it is the unbreakable chain of saints from Peter to the Pope right now. You cannot just dismiss that heritage.
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“bearer of God” (Theotokos) was about Jesus’ as Deity from the moment of conception (that He was always God, even in the womb) – it meant the Son was God even before becoming human in the womb of Mary. It was not about Mary at the beginning. Nothing about Peter as “bishop over all other bishops” or “Pope” in NT nor in early centuries. The claims are fallacious and very weak.
Peter calls himself “fellow-elder” with the other elders of churches. I Peter 5:1
Peter exhorts the churches to read his letter and words of the apostles and Paul, not his suppossed successor.
2 Peter 1:12-18 – he knows he is going to die; exhorts them to remember the words and the letter and the writings.
2 Peter 3:1 – this is the second letter I am writing to you by which I am stirring up your sincere minds to remember . . .
2 Peter 3:16 – the letters of the apostle Paul are Scripture also.
Nothing about his suppossed successor as Pope or bishop of bishops.
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Ken, Sunni’s pray at graves as well. I visited several grave sites of important Indonesian Muslim leaders and hundreds of people come to pray there everyday.
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Interesting. Are they praying to the dead saint as a mediator, or for the dead saint that he will be accepted by Allah, Ensh’allah?
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I realize that you’re playing in a dirty water here, and I will not give you this chance.
The bearer of God is about Mary definitely. I’m not sure ,but I believe br. Yahya has a video about that. There is a manuscript which contains some supplications directed to Mary with that title.
Believe me, don’t even try to play this game, Oh human worshippers. Years ago, Christians were celebrating for a movie proving that that their God was dead, and he got resurrected. Even in academic level such as Dr Licona ! He was retelling some scenes with all arrogance to prove that his god got killed! Even I read comments of christians on youtube under that movie trailer that their ” god” ‘s smile is adorable! Your religion as whole is soaked with icons, statues, saints, and most important that you are proudly worshipping a human being.
In Islam, the situation is different. There are some subsects got deviated,but Islam by itself stands with monotheism firmly.
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http://scriptoriumdaily.com/council-of-ephesus-431/
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Yes, as a mediator. They would bring flowers/gifts to the grave to seek blessings for crops etc
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Ken, that is actually a complicated issue. Not because of it itself since Tawhid is clear and simple but because of historical problems regarding it.
We can basically say that practices at graves and similar places have to be looked at individually. Only then the issue can be understood consistently.
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It is interesting that most of the comments here say that western secularism is the worst threat.
What is the root or root ideas of western secularism?
Realize that the anti-supernatural bias in western scholarship – not allowing for God’s power to do miracles, His power to inspire prophets and inspire written Scriptures, and not allowing miracles to factor in “Scholarly historical methods” are the same principles that guide the scholars that you guys are promoting here mostly.
The root of dismissing the Gospel of John as historical is this same principle. (and any dismissal of any other verses in Mark, Matthew, Luke that show the incarnation and Deity of Christ and Christ’s words as historical and true).
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Yes, apparently secularism is a threat, and yet those Muslims saying this do not see the irony that their worldview on this topic is governed by it, not their religion, Abdullah being the exception.
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Secularism has already engulfed Christianity.
You are looking at things from an Islamic perspective which is mainly about society, culture, external laws, morality in the greater society.
It has engulfed historically Christian countries and cultures, but not Christianity itself. When churches left the Word of God and left the faith years ago, they became non-Christian. (in the last 200-300 years, slowly becoming more and more liberal in western culture.)
Christianity itself survives in true believers and true churches, and is not political.
Liberal theology is not Christianity at all. They apostatized and left the faith, left their first love a long time ago. Revelation 2:4-5
The only faith can face that threat is Islam ,and I think the west realizes this fact.
Please explain how the west realizes this fact. The west as a whole, culturally, sociologically, politically wants and loves secular atheism and agnosticism, Darwinism, etc. They don’t want Sharia law either; the west loves it’s secularism and freedom and debauchery.
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What you say makes sense but you have Christians like Paulus here who are secularists and make secularist arguments against Islam.
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“What you say makes sense . . . ”
Thanks.
Which part? (hard to tell exactly what you are responding to in the thread)
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Most Iranian young people are like these – dancing to Pharrel’s “Happy” – ( in Iran, and they were arrested and detained for a while, later released I think)
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Yes, Iranians are disgusting. I have never met a good Iranian except the few Sunni ones.
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No; many of them are very intelligent, compassionate, hospitable, and a great people. You cannot just dismiss them all – that is racism.
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Abdullah: Finally, if anyone wants to discuss Shia’s beliefs ( i.e. twrlever) by details, I’m ready to prove that it has nothing to do with Islam.
Can you first give me a list of non-Sunni movements that you consider Islamic? Thanks.
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I think we should ignore it. in core they are Muslims but they have some weird ideas but many of those ideas you often see among sunnis too. However when talk with them rationally they agree and some of them come back to orthodox faith. I don’t see much benefit in “extreme” salafi attitude towards them.
You don’t learn about shias from madkhalis or other extreme salafis. These people are as much misguided. For them shias are biggest threat yet secularist who are undermining the very essence of religion are saviors so long as they rule by brute force and shut up other Muslims who don’t believe in their (salafi) stupidities! go figure.
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Don’t bother. I can see what you are all about. I’m sorry for you guys.
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Ken
Here are some links where you can find information about the Shia from their own perspective including an online forum where you can speak communicate with Shias. Ahlulbayt TV has videos covering introductions to Shia beliefs and al-islam is an online encyclopedia containing ebooks and scholarly articles from Shia scholars.
http://www.shiachat.com/
http://ahlulbayt.tv/
https://www.al-islam.org/
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This channel http://ahlulbayt.tv/ could be very good example. This channel is broadcasting in Arabic as well.
That man, the father of the founder of this channel, was putting words in the mouth of the prophet ﷺ about Ali.
At 33′ he said, and I’m paraphrasing.
” The prophet said to Ali I’m afraid that some people would say the same thing that christians say about Jesus If I had said the reality about you”.
He continued, at 1:23′
” Sunni (i.e muslims) asked us(i.e twelver shia) why do you call Ali?, I answered” a woman giving birth call Oh Ali, the prophet was calling Ali! Don’t say Shirk! …..When we start walking, we say Oh Ali. When we stumble, we say Oh Ali. When will we die, we will say Oh Ali. In the grave, we say Oh Ali. Even when we will enter paradise, we will say Oh Ali. In the time of troubles, just call Ali revealing the wonders!, and all troubles would be gone”.
However, Quran translation reads Surah 40:14
” So call upon God, devoting religion entirely to Him, though disbelievers be averse ”
What the (twelver Shia) are doing is exactly what we disagree with christians. It’s not surprising that they share many arguments when we debate them.
This channel has many lectures on youtube titled like this ( Hussian is eternal ) or ( The one who never knows Hussain, he will never know Allah).
I’m not gonna be a hypocrite about the the core of Quran and Sunnah which is (Tawhid) .
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