Shalom, Salam
This post is a continuation of my previous post where I said I was going to explain why according to the Jewish scriptures, Jesus does not meet the qualifications for being the long promised Messiah. I would like to thanks our dear friend Eric for enlightened us on the Quran’s position on this important subject. God/Allah bless all those who seek Him.
Unlike the Christian bible, the Hebrew bible does not focus that much on the personality of the Messiah, it’s main focus is on the Messianic Age, on what the world will be like, and how it will be transformed by the coming of the Messiah. There is, however, a prerequisite for being the Messiah.
What does Messiah mean?
The literal translation of the word משיח (messiah) is, “the anointed.” In the Scriptures we find two types of people who were anointed, and therefore called “messiah”;
- Aaron the Priest, and all his male descendants (Exodus 30:30; see Leviticus 4:3)
- Kings (1 Samuel 10:1, 16:13; see 2 Samuel 1:16).
King David refers to himself as “The Messiah” more times than any other biblical figure:
“Great salvation he brings to his king, and shows steadfast love to his anointed- to David and his offspring forever.” 2 Samuel 22:51
“The Lord is the strength of his people; he is the saving refuge of his anointed.” Psalms 28:8
“Now I know that the Lord saves his anointed; he will answer him from his holy heaven with the saving might of his right hand.” ibid 20:7
“For the sake of your servant David- do not turn away the face of your anointed one.” ibid 132:10
“There I will make a horn to sprout for David- I have prepared a lamp for my anointed.” ibid :17
What was so unique about David’s anointment that made him obsess over it? Wasn’t Saul anointed, too? Weren’t the priests anointed?
David’s Kingdom
We all know the story of David. God was unhappy with Saul, so he sent Samuel to anoint the next king of Israel. Samuel anointed the shepherd-boy David. But David’s kingship was very different in nature than Saul’s kingship. In the word of God to the prophet Nathan:
“Now, therefore, thus you shall say to my servant David, ‘Thus says the Lord of hosts, I took you from the pasture, from following the sheep, that you should be prince over my people Israel… I will make for you a great name, like the name of the great ones of the earth… Moreover, the Lord declares to you that the Lord will make you a house. When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. When he commits iniquity, I will discipline him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men, but my steadfast love will not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from before you. And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me.” 2 Samuel 7:8-16
From this prophecy we can learn many things:
- God chose David to be a king
- King David will have a son, who will build a House for God
- God will never replace that son’s kingship, like He had done to Saul. The son’s kingship will be established forever.
The “son” in discussion is Solomon, who indeed built the First Temple in Jerusalem, as the bible relates in great detail in 1 Kings chapters 5-10. We can therefore establish that anyone who will claim kingship on Israel must be a direct descendant father-to-son, of Solomon and (obviously, and more importantly), David. I say father-to-son, for that is the way tribal and all lineage works in the bible; the son of a Levite is a Levite, the son of a priest is a priest, the son of a Judean is a Judean. There is never an exception to this rule. In fact, all nineteen kings who sat on David’s throne, were direct father-to-son descendants to David. For good reason, it is the way God taught Moses to register the Jews:
“Take a census of all the congregation of the people of Israel, by clans, by fathers’ houses, according to the number of names, every male, head by head.” Numbers 1:2
When Samuel anointed David, he thereby also anointed the future kings of Israel who will claim their right for the monarchy by being direct descendants of David. The Messiah is not just a king who will fight and judge (Isaiah 11:3-4), he is the one who will rebuild the Davidic kingdom, he “The Anointed One” who finally restore David’s kingdom. He is therefore called by the name of his grandfather…
“My servant David shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall walk in my rules and be careful to obey my statutes… and David my servant shall be their prince forever.” Ezekiel 37:24-25
Jesus the son of…
If you open the book of Matthew and just read chapter 1, than Jesus lineage is very fitting for a future king of the Jews:
“The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham… and Jesse the father of David the king. And David was the father of Solomon by the wife of Uriah… and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.” Matthew 1:1-16
Had Matthew left the story as it appears here, than Jesus would be a direct descendant of Solomon and David through his father Joseph. Instead, three verses later, Matthew reveals that Joseph wasn’t Jesus’ father at all. Jesus is not a descendant of David. Jesus belongs to no tribe, and has no lineage that is relevant to us. Jesus is a king like he is a priest. He is none.
Luke gives us another genealogy of Joseph:
“Jesus… being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli… the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David” Luke 3:24-31
The question of how Joseph can have two fathers is irrelevant, for I don’t believe in the Divinity of this book. But however you’ll twist this you will come out with a major problem.
- Joseph is a descendant of Solomon. Still doesn’t help Jesus (imagine Joseph headed a foster care would than all 500 homeless children be qualified?)
- Joseph is a descendant of Nathan. Disqualified.
- Mary is a descendant of Solomon or Nathan. Her lineage is irrelevant.
- Jesus wan’t born of a virgin. Then, who is his father??? Joseph apparently admitted it wasn’t him.
This is part one. There is more to discuss on this subject, I just wanted to put this out before the week begins. I hope this finds you well. There will be follow ups God Willing. HaShem/Allah Bless you all
Categories: Christianity, Islam, Judaism, The Gospel of Jesus
Blogging Theology 
Why would they?
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Oh I don’t know. you will have to ask them. I’m just waiting patiently for Muslims to refute this article.
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Are you a jew, O’I D ?
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Abdulla asked if I was a Jew?.
My answer No I’m not. Are you?
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A christian then ?!
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🙂
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I don’t think he is…
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Maybe he is a Muslim and can refute this article?
Abdullah are you a Muslim? Can you refute this article?
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Then why are you so thrilled that jews are rejecting your god ?
You’re such an as* kisser that even you’re so happy for jews to reject your god who was a human being!
Dude,
Just step back and watch how muslims defend the prophets of God including Aaron, Solomon, and Jesus peace be upon them all.
Finally, I’m a muslim as my father Abraham was.
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Abdullah wrote…
“Just step back and watch how muslims defend the prophets of God including Aaron, Solomon, and Jesus peace be upon them all.”
My response: Ok great, fantastic, that’s what I’m waiting for. Sitting back and waiting patiently for a Muslim to refute this article.
And… I’m still waiting.
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Did I offend any prophet? I just said that Jesus is not a Davidic king which is a Christ-ian issue. What does that have to do with prophecy
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I have a question for Mozer,
Do you regard the promise given to David as conditional or unconditional? Because at least from Psalms 132:12 it does seem conditional:”If thy children will keep my covenant And my testimony that I shall teach them, Their children also shall sit upon thy throne for evermore.”
You say that the virgin birth disqualifies him of being a Messiah, but from your explanation it only would mean he is not a Davidic Messiah. He can still be a Messiah, if emperor Cyrus of Persia is called a Messiah(Isaiah 45:1).
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Very true and valid points. Let’s start with the second one. Yes, messiah can mean other things too, and in that sense Jesus can be a messiah for something. But The Messiah- the king the Jews are waiting for, is the son of David that will restore the kingdom. In other words, the Jews are waiting for a king. Jesus can be many things, a Davidic king is not one of them. Regarding the first question I think it’s clear from Nathan’s prophecy that it is an unconditional Vow. For if it isn’t than what differentiates Gods treatment of Saul to his treatment of Solomon?
Perhaps it means that a king that won’t keep Gods will, will die or be removed from the kingdom so another descendant of David should reign… good question. I’ll check some sources and get back to you
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Mozer,
WhIle a lack of Davidic status for Jesus has serious ramifications for Christian theology, I don’t think it really affects Islamic understanding of Jesus as a non Davidic Messiah as Fawaz stated above. The two contradicting lineages in Matthew & Luke, along with the fact that Jesus had no humanly father had convinced me many years ago that Jesus does not hold Davidic status.
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Bingo!!! 👍
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Br. Ibn Issam,
Jesus (might) be from Davidic lineage through his mother.
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Abdullah,
Yes, I understand that Jesus can legitimately claim the title of Messiah if he is descended from Aaron as Qur’an seems to indicate. But I don’t see how he can claim Davidic status, through Aaron, Is Aaron descended from David? I don’t see Aaron’s name in the genealogies listed in Matthew and Luke. Is there indication elsewhere in the Bible? just curious.
I realize that we rely on Qur’an
Allahu Alim,
Thanks Brother.
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“Is Aaron descended from David?”
This is the question which we need to answer whether David is a descendant of Aaron or not. Also, genealogies provided in the bible are not reliable. Allah knows.
Whatever the case, this is not that important according to Quran.
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Abdullah,
Sorry, I meant to say is “David descended from Aaron” and sure I recognize that bible is not reliable. and that it isn’t that important according to Quran. So I agree with you there.
However, I do think that the question of Davidic status is highly impactful on Judeo-Christian theology in light of Islamic theology. There is much more here than meets the eye.
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Salam Ibn Issam
What do you mean by “in light of Islamic theology.”
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Mozer, Abdullah,
Here is what I am thinking.
Jesus having No humanly father = No Davidic Status = No Abrahamic Seed = No Birthright/No Covenant = No eternal inheritance to atemporally impart to Christians who by faith believe in the Atonement of the Cross. Christian theology collapses.
This is what I believe you getting at here, Mozer, and I agree with you and the Jewish stance on this namely because it does not affect Islamic theology as you have already indicated you agree. According to Qur’an Jesus is still legitimately a Messiah, or as Eric bin Kisam said, THE Messiah (possibly through the line of Aaron) and he is still a Prophet, as God chooses whom he wills.
Importantly the lack of Davidic Status for Jesus actually works in benefit of Islam as it sets the stage for the eventual transferal of Prophethood and shifting of the eternal promise of the covenant to a certain Prophet descended from the line of Ishmael!!
I am sure Mozer will disagree with the last point but I think there is further evidence to support this understanding.
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Shalom my dear friends.
I do agree with most of what you said [including that i’ll disagree with the last point ;)] regarding the covenant, however. being that Jesus was born from a Jewess he’s a Jew and he has Abraham’s seed through his mother. if a Jewess had a child with a gentile the kid still Jewish and therefore is in the covenant.. unlike the tribe [and every other rights through lineage] which goes through the father. therefore Jesus does not need his father to be in the covenant.
can i ask a question? in alShariah do females inherit?
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Mozer,
It is commonly agreed that Jesus is a Jewish Prophet born of a Jewish Mother. But in order to have the Seed of Abraham he needs patrilineal descent. As Jesus cannot genetically be called the seed of his father, since he had no humanly progenitor.
However, if you are saying that, in the same way that females inherit a lesser portion according to Shariah, then yes, I may be able to agree that Jesus did inherit a lesser portion of the covenant somehow through the line of Mary.
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Salam,
Br Ibn Issam
“Jesus having No humanly father = No Davidic Status = No Abrahamic Seed = No Birthright/No Covenant”
I disagree with this statement.
“No Abrahamic Seed” ?!
Quran explicitly stated that he is from Abrahamic lineage although Jesus has no father since the maternal lineage is considered in Islam in many cases.
Surah 6:84-85
“And We gave to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob – all [of them] We guided. And Noah, We guided before; and among his descendants, David and Solomon and Job and Joseph and Moses and Aaron. Thus do We reward the doers of good.
“And Zechariah and John and Jesus and Elias – and all were of the righteous.”
Also, the prophet pbuh referred to his grandson (Al Hasan) from his daughter (Fatimah) by calling him (MY SON).
Morover, the concept of covenant from Judeo-christian perspective is not approved in Islam as they present it. Many things could be said about the covenant, and how Quran presents it. It’s a topic by itself.
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Mozer,
“in alShariah do females inherit?”
Yes! Females do inherit in Islam. However, may I ask how this could be related to the covenant?
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Abdullah,
Thanks for your input brother.
In order for Jesus to have Davidic Status he has to have “the seed” of his father. Since he was the virgin born adopted son of Joseph he did not receive the humanly seed of either patriarch in either lineage found in Matthew or Luke. That’s where Mozer and I agree. But I further question whether or not Jesus “the seed” of Abraham as well as Christians like to claim.
In regard to Surah 6:84:85 Verse 84 seems to be recounting the Abrahamic lineage, but is Ayat 85 also listing members of Abrahamic lineage? Or is 85 just stating that these Prophets (including Isa) are righteous? I honestly don’t know, and maybe we can turn to Tafsir for clarification.
I agree with what you said, that Jesus (might) be from Davidic lineage through his mother, and I also agree that he (might) be from the Abrahamic lineage. But, it seems that this cannot be proven for sure.
Yes, Mozer mentioned female inheritance, But I related it to the Covenant only to say that if, as Qur’an seems to imply, Mary is from house of Aaron, then maybe it is possible that Jesus descended from David matrilineally and by extension from Abraham. In that case, regarding Judeo-Christian understandings about inheritance of the covenant, Jesus may have received (thru female inheritance) a lesser portion of the inheritance through his matrilineal side. But he can never have received the Primary inheritance of the Covenant patrilineally since he is virgin born. I also believe that there is a strong case to be made for Muhammad being the Primary recipient of the covenantal inheritance through the direct patrilineal (and direct matrilineal) line of Ishmael.
While the above undermines Christian theology, I don’t think it affects Islamic theology since according to Qur’an, Jesus does not require the prerequisite of Davidic status or Abrahamic descent (seed) to be Messiah or Prophet. Allah chooses whom he wills, and is not limited by any earthly rule.
I realize that genealogies in Matthew and Luke are not reliable; I also realize that the concept of covenant from Judeo-christian perspective is not approved in Islam as they present it, and I don’t mean to cause any confusion on the matter. I am only trying to show based on their own Judeo-Christian theological understandings how one may come to entirely different conclusions which work for the benefit of Islam.
I will follow the lead of Eric Bin Kisam in freely admitting that I am not an Islamic Scholar and I am only musing on possibilities. Wa Allahu Alim!
I would be interested to hear Paul Williams view on this theory.
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“and I also agree that he (might) be from the Abrahamic lineage. But, it seems that this cannot be proven for sure”
??
Brother, this ayah is explicit about Jesus being a descendant of Abraham. There’s no ( might) here. This is not a personal opnion brothet. You find that in Al Tabrai ,Ibn Kathir, and Al Qurtbi. In fact almost all tafsirs sataed that since the verse is explicit. Ahnaf & Shaifiah in Fiqh have some opnions of waqaf for children because of this verse.
I said that Jesus( might) be from Dravidic linaege because I have no evidence from Quran and Sunnah as I know that ( Mary) is from Dravidic lineage. However, reagrding Abraham we’re 100 % sure.
Allah knows the best.
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I agree. and actually brought up inheritance for different reason. For in Judaism daughters don’t inherit when there are although they inherit when there are no sons. which implies, that the reason why inheritance goes from father to son, is because the prime inheritance and actually the inheritance in discussion is of the Land of Israel where everyone had his own portion within his tribe. the Torah did not want to mix tribes and therefore the portion went from father to son, for that’s how tribal lineage works. however if there is no son, than you have no choice for a daughter is the seed of her father nonetheless and therefore is the rightful owner of her fathers portion, and the land then is lost from the tribe.
in our case. according to the tribal and lineage Jesus was from the seed of Abraham and David, being a seed of Abraham brings him into the covenant. but the seed of David only helps if is direct. [just like the priesthood]
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Reblogged this on Hasidic and commented:
Continuation of our discussion (not debate…)
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Mozer.
Why do you think the disciples of Jesus, Jews of course, had no problem seeing Jesus as the messiah?
New International Version
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
If Lineage was understood how you describe, why would Peter, a Jew, say such a thing?
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What do we know about Peter? What did Peter know about Jesus?
Did Peter know that Joseph wasn’t Jesus’ real father? Do we know that Peter was learned?
I can tell you what my bible says. Can’t be an apologist for Peter.
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Peter wasn’t the only Jew to see Jesus as the messiah. There was a large movement who believed such.
Do you any opinion why many first century Jews took Jesus to be messiah? Any opinion why they didn’t understand lineage the way you describe?
Do you think your exegesis is the only possibility?
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I don’t think Jesus had a big following. He had 12 students and a whole bunch of miracle-attracted people. Moreover, Josephus writes that the were a lot of con artists that made a living as false prophets. And people bought into it… I’m not saying Jesus was one of them, saying that people under Roman aggression following a miracle maker means very little.
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When he fed the multitudes, he had more than a few followers. They ate the real food he provided for them, too. He didn’t perform miracles as some kind of con man. Even if there were millions running around back then with a hustle, that proves nothing about who He was. Don’t forget, Jews sought to kill him because He performed real miracles, and claimed to be God.
Debating or dialoguing about Christ, trying to prove He wasn’t God’s Son, is fruitless if one includes everything the N.T. says about Him. It has never been done. Not even close. Actually, some find Him through such intense efforts.
Much of what is presented here uses proof-texting which is easily refuted. Then, the subject changes until another angle on His identity is shown to be incorrect.
So far, an all out effort to include everything that is known about Him, to try to establish who he really was, is dismissed with little quips, one liners, off the cuff remarks.
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You obviously didn’t understand my comment,or you can’t read. I said in very clear words that I’m not implying that he was a con man, I was saying that what the masses believed at the time should not be taken into consideration because we know from other sources that they were ready to buy whatever they were sold if it made them feel better. The rest of the comment is a waste to answer
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I’m not saying that they merely followed Jesus. I’m saying that they viewed him as the messiah. Such contradicts your position. So I was merely wondering how you understand the early Jewish Christians?
I would add that Paul of Tarsus, a highly educated Jew trained as a Pharisee, had no issues seeing Jesus as the Christ. As such I’d be interested to hear your thoughts if you have any?
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Let me ask you. There is a vetting system for someone who wants to be a prophet, you understand that not every shmuck who predicted something and was lucky, is a prophet of God. Why and how did so many Jews listen to false prophets? The answer is because there’s such a thing called ignorant unlearned desperate people who are willing to believe anything. That is a fact of human behavior and established by Josephus. So why then is their following Jesus more proof of his legitimacy than it is of the false prophets people were following at the time?
Saul of Tarsus is not a problem. He thought of the Torah to be disposable so maybe he also thought that David’s kingdom is disposable.
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And since you brought in Josephus, he too mentions that Jesus was the messiah. So I find it somewhat hard to swallow the idea that Jesus didn’t have many followers. He clearly had enough Jewish followers to be given a mention in a Jewish history of the first century. Who clearly designated him as the messiah.
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“Josephus writes that the were a lot of con artists that made a living as false prophets” Mozer
Where is that written?
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by the destruction of the second temple. and you don’t really have to go to Josephus Jeremiah says that that was the reality in his time… people believed in the prophets who said that everything will be good “those who say peace, peace. but there is no peace”
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“I don’t think Jesus had a big following.” Mozer
Multiple thousands
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Where’s that number from? and a few thousand from a whole nation? Don’t forget even according to the NT Jesus failed with bringing his message to the Jews. There’s a reason why his apostles didn’t really listen when he said “go only unto the lost sheep of Israel” they tried… and that following you’re talking about wasn’t much of a success
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“The rest of the comment is a waste to answer.” MOZER
“Jews sought to kill him because He performed real miracles, and claimed to be God.” not a waste
“They ate the real food…” not a waste
“Even if there were millions running around back then with a hustle, that proves nothing about who He was.” not a waste
“Debating or dialoguing about Christ, trying to prove He wasn’t God’s Son, is fruitless if one includes everything the N.T. says about Him.” not a waste
“It has never been done.” not a waste
“Much of what is presented here uses proof-texting which is easily refuted.” not a waste
“Then, the subject changes until another angle on His identity is shown to be incorrect.” as you can see, it happens continuously
“So far, an all out effort to include everything that is known about Him, to try to establish who he really was, is dismissed with little quips, one liners, off the cuff remarks.” not only not a waste, but very important to study all we know about Him.
Mozer, I know that wasn’t your best effort. Bring with your analysis the breath of fresh air much needed to revive the discussions here.
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claimed to be God is a reason to kill someone, but i don’t think he did that. they might’ve eaten real food, which still doesn’t mean that he is the messiah. if i include everything the NT says about him… the NT says that he was the son of God which i don’t find to be a problem, all the Jews are described as the children of God. what has never been done? that there were miracle workers? you kidding? every faith system in the world claims many miracle makers with as astonishing ones as Jesus, in every generation… if miracles is your focus you should believe in pagan gods their followers saw miracles too.
one liners? you don’t understand something. I have a Bible that has rules. If someone doesnt meet the rules, he’s out. the NT can say nice things about Jesus, and therefore you can come top many conclusions, but what I’m saying is, that he cannot be a Davidic King… and that Matthew and Luke prove. is there other genealogies? no. so what else do you want me to read?? the sermon on the Mount? the passion? You think i came to make a case against Jesus. that’s not the point. had that been my objective you would’ve been right. I am talking about his legitimacy to the throne… and that he isn’t
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Mozer G.
“Let me ask you. There is a vetting system for someone who wants to be a prophet, you understand that not every shmuck who predicted something and was lucky, is a prophet of God. Why and how did so many Jews listen to false prophets?”
The problem with this point is that the bible clearly shows that jews sometimes did not listen to real prophets, and ignored or rejected their teachings.
With this argument you would have to reject some of the established OT prophets as fake.
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why? I never said Jews listened to all their prophets at all times. I said Jews believed in false prophets at times… and sometimes as in Jeremiah’s case they chose to believe the false prophets instead of Jeremiah, for the false prophets predicted good things..
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“Saul of Tarsus is not a problem. He thought of the Torah to be disposable so maybe he also thought that David’s kingdom is disposable.”- Mozer
“Acts 24: 14 “But this I do admit to you: I worship the God of our fathers in accordance with the Way (which they call a sect). I continue to believe everything that accords with the Torah and everything written in the Prophets.”- Paul of Tarsus.
I think you’ve lost the argument. You seem to now be reverting to cheap unverified polemics. I was generally interested in your opinion, but it seems I wasted my time. Shalom
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interesting. isn’t he the one that declared that you don’t have to keep all the laws of moses? than if he’s in power of changing God’s law that was untouchable until than- by the Pharisees, than he’s capable of changing the laws of the messiah, no?
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“Josephus writes that the were a lot of con artists that made a living as false prophets” Mozer
Where is that written?
Not to bug you, Mozer, but you said Josephus wrote that. Where specifically in his writings did you find that?
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“Where’s that number from?” Mozer
“Jesus said, “Have the people sit down.” There was plenty of grass in that place, and they sat down (about five thousand men were there).” john 6:10
“Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then he gave them to his disciples to distribute to the people. He also divided the two fish among them all.”
“and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces of bread and fish.” “The number of the men who had eaten was five thousand.” mark 6:40 – 44
6 Then He commanded the crowd to sit down on the ground. Taking the seven loaves, He gave thanks, broke the loaves, and kept on giving them to His disciples to set before the people. So they served the loaves to the crowd. 7 They also had a few small fish, and when He had blessed them, He said these were to be served as well. 8 They ate and were filled. Then they collected seven large baskets of leftover pieces. 9 About 4,000 men were there. mark 8:6-
8A massive crowd spread their cloaks on the road, while others cut branches from the trees and spread them on the road. 9The crowds that went ahead of Him and those that followed were shouting: “Hosanna to the Son of David!” “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!” “Hosanna in the highest!” matthew 21:8-
The religious leaders feared Him because of the great crowds of people who were following Him.
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okay, a couple of thousand people who believed in him. not bad.
here’s Josephus in Jewish War book 2 here was an Egyptian false prophet that did the Jews more mischief than the former; for he was a cheat, and pretended to be a prophet also, and got together thirty thousand men that were deluded by him; these he led round about from the wilderness to the mount which was called the Mount of Olives….
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“claimed to be God is a reason to kill someone, but i don’t think he did that.”
He claimed to be God
“they might’ve eaten real food, which still doesn’t mean that he is the messiah.”
Doesn’t hurt. Did you ever eat food someone created from resources insufficient to make your helping?
“if i include everything the NT says about him… the NT says that he was the son of God which i don’t find to be a problem, all the Jews are described as the children of God. what has never been done?”
They weren’t all born of virgins were they?
“that there were miracle workers? you kidding? every faith system in the world claims many miracle makers with as astonishing ones as Jesus, in every generation…”
Would you mind naming the top 10?
“if miracles is your focus you should believe in pagan gods their followers saw miracles too.”
Miracles are not my focus. Which GodMen performed miracles like Jesus Christ did?
“one liners? you don’t understand something. I have a Bible that has rules. If someone doesnt meet the rules, he’s out. the NT can say nice things about Jesus, and therefore you can come top many conclusions, but what I’m saying is, that he cannot be a Davidic King”
What rules did I violate or did Jesus violate? The N.T. says He was God.
“… and that Matthew and Luke prove. is there other genealogies? no. so what else do you want me to read?? the sermon on the Mount? the passion? You think i came to make a case against Jesus.”
I don’t know but you didn’t make a case against him.
The genealogies skip generations, a common practice.
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“I don’t think Jesus had a big following. He had 12 students and a whole bunch of miracle-attracted people.”
“okay, a couple of thousand people who believed in him”
No. It was not a couple thousand. 5,000 and 4,000 men. How many brought their wives and children?
Remember the massive crowds greeting him, too?
“Moreover, Josephus writes that the were a lot of con artists that made a living as false prophets. And people bought into it”
You present one. “here’s Josephus in Jewish War book 2 here was an Egyptian false prophet that did the Jews more mischief…”
that is not “a lot”
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Looks like Abdullah spoke a big game but his silence has put him to shame.
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Do you have anything intelligence to say? You sounds like radical moderate aka robert wells? are you??
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of course he is. I delete 99% of his comments 🙂
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Shalom br. Mozer, thank you for your post. Good to learn jewish understanding for this topic in this blog. I hope it can stimulate enlightening and respectful discussions. Just beware there are missionaries who may want to sow discord among jews and muslims along the way, you know what I mean ;-).
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I sadly do…
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Radmod, what do you mean by “blasphemous rabbi worshipping jews”?
I thought xtians are the only religious bloc in the world who actually worship a jewish rabbi..
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Eric no Christians worship GOD who entered into Flesh he became a man. But you know that already.
But seriously why can’t you refute this jew?
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So you admit that you worship a jewish man , a rabbi. So that makes you are blasphemous rabbi worshipping xtian.
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“Eric no Christians worship GOD who entered into Flesh he became a man. But you know that already.”
can you show where in the torah yhwh predicted that he would be a dying and rising messiah.
“entered into flesh”
did your god enter into his mothers flesh first?
so god entered in to two fleshes ?
“became a man” ?
became implies change, not possession
your god with his divine powers physically became a human being i.e god CHANGED and god changes his invisible powers to finite and created. this is what it means “became”
christians worship a finite created creature called “jesus”
god BECAME finite and created
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“Eric no Christians worship GOD who entered into Flesh he became a man. But you know that already.”
just read this guys nonsense.
“entered ” and then he says “became”
no read these words
god BECAME finite and created
god entered finite and created
whatever nonsense christian says ; it really implies change in gods nature because god is always with divine powers
so divine powers – person implies handicapped god
are they saying handicapped god became and entered into flesh?
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“So you admit that you worship a jewish man , a rabbi”
yes, he clearly said
“god became” a finite and created rabbi
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i will ask again:
where does the torah say that yhwh was going to become a messiah who was sacrificed animal/human ???
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A question Mozer ,what do you say about a priestly Messiah ?
make it two , what evidence is there in Judaism to prevent a jewish prophet at the time of jesus ?
just asking. not debating
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Salam, first of all you don’t have to be apologetic I’m not a scary person. Secondly, that’s a good question. In Judaism there is such a thing as a priestly Messiah, however it is difficult to say that Jesus was that messiah for he wasn’t a Levite directly descendant of Aaron. There was a vetting system for prophets that Maimonides writes in length perhaps we’ll write about that… great topic. Those prophets Josephus relates were in the dozens maybe hundreds…
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Interesting.
If jesus is not the messiah then the quran is wrong and islam is false. If jesus is the messiah, then the quran is wrong and islam is false.
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Simplistic and wrong.
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Explain please……
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see explanation in other comments
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Also, this is a good jewish perspective on the messiah.
https://jewsforjesus.org/issues-v13-n02/four-startling-facts-about-the-identity-of-the-messiah
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blah blah blah… these people are full of garbage. they have no issue molesting the words of God to fit their agenda. anyone who says the Shema is proof of the Trinity, is a cheap deliberate liar. these people’s bible reading skills are horrible.
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And the true colours are exposed. I figured the politeness was a facade for discussion.
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I’ll tell you what aggravates me, if you have a serial liar, and you see his name quoted in an argument. it makes you want to vomit. I didn’t mean to offend you. sorry. it’s that i’ve read a lot of their stuff and they are not honest… they have no issue twisting the words of God.. so I have complete disregard to them..
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Mozer
Dang! I though you were a voice of reason, but boy maybe I was wrong.
I happen to agree that the shema only makes sense as a statement if the entity saying it can be mistaken for multiple entities – surely you can see that?
Why would anyone have to say “I am one”? Wouldn’t – shouldn’t that be obvious? And if it isn’t obvious, what cold make it not obvious?
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seriously? why God is saying to his people that they should not believe in other gods and he’s the only One? did you open a bible? the Jews worshiped idolatry every few years, it’s almost like they had an addiction… of course God has to declare he’s the only one…
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And the true colours are exposed. I figured the politeness was a facade for discussion.
Didn’t take long did it?
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only 2000 years. I guess you get fed up eventually.
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Mozer G.
“seriously? why God is saying to his people that they should not believe in other gods and he’s the only One? did you open a bible? the Jews worshiped idolatry every few years, it’s almost like they had an addiction… of course God has to declare he’s the only one…”
Yes seriously. “the Lord Your god is one”, is not a statement of monotheism – it’s a statement about god’s nature. He is one, but why does that even have to be said? Why isn’t it obvious?
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@Graham,
Are you seriously arguing that God told us He is One so that we would understand He is not one?
Also the Oneness of God is not some abstract concept. It is of deep relevance to the individual who is worshipping God.”Him alone you should worship” does not mean worship one abstract entity with multiple individuals.
There is one ultimate King, one ultimate Protector, Cherisher, Sustainer, Caretaker. And that One is not the Prophet Jesus(upon whom be peace). The ultimate Protector, Cherisher and Sustainer is the One that Jesus prayed to.
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fawaz
“Also the Oneness of God is not some abstract concept. It is of deep relevance to the individual who is worshipping God.”Him alone you should worship” does not mean worship one abstract entity with multiple individuals.”
Actually in islam everything that is said about allah is fundamentally purely abstract – he cannot be apprehended remember and all the things muslim say about him do not reveal him?
“Are you seriously arguing that God told us He is One so that we would understand He is not one?”
I’m saying that anyone saying “I am One” is a redundancy – why isn’t it obvious? Why would anyone presume that any other entity is in some way plural and anything other than one?
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Graham
November 20, 2016 • 8:05 am
Mozer
Dang! I though you were a voice of reason, but boy maybe I was wrong.
I happen to agree that the shema only makes sense as a statement if the entity saying it can be mistaken for multiple entities – surely you can see that?
Why would anyone have to say “I am one”? Wouldn’t – shouldn’t that be obvious? And if it isn’t obvious, what cold make it not obvious?
I say;
It means God is 1 not 2,3,4,5………………………………
I remembered answering you this question and you keep repeating it. The Jews keep worshiping other gods or adding other gods to the one true God of Abraham, Jesus, Moses, Mohammed etc. so God has to keep repeating to all mankind that He is 1, only and alone.
———————————-
“Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
“Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
“You are the God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
“O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
“You alone [bad] are Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6
“For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God
“to the only [monos] wise God, Amen.” Romans 16:27
“This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only [monos] true God” John 17:3
————————————
God never said “I am multiple persons” but Christians on their own wish to worship multiple persons and throw the above clear verses out. That is self proclaimed God of the Christians and not what the scripture said. The scripture clearly said God is 1, only and alone but the Christians say no. the scripture is lying but they know God more than the scripture and they worship
-Man(Jesus) who has a God
-multiple persons God
-creature
-Trinity
-etc.
and all is not clear in the Bible but the figment of some Christians imagination. Some Christians do not believe Jesus is God anyway.
Christians believe God saying He is 1, only and alone means he is not alone but have other persons and not alone with others and not 1 but multiple like how they think Donald Trump will grab MARRIED women p**** but he is a good person and he did have sex with them to have unwanted pregnancies and abort the babies and still voted for him.
That is the mentality of some Christians like Mr. Graham, they see the truth but will ignore it and follow their own interest and insists they worship God.
They did it to the Jews by deporting their ship back to Europe to be killed in holocaust, they did it to Catholics by persecuting them, to Mormons etc. Now it is the turn of Muslims. Some, the same Christians now want Muslims out of USA.
The said the problem was the Jews, Catholics, Mormons but now the problem is Muslims. The Christians like Graham will always have someone who does not share his believe to blame for the problems of the world and that is satanic to keep blaming others but not you.
The above means some Christians like Graham are the problems of the world. I am happy to say some Christians but not all but the bad Christians like the Trump general will say all Muslims like his ancestors said all Jews, all Catholics, all Mormons etc. are problem.
Oh Christians like Mr. Graham, don’t you know
One?
1?
Only?
Alone?
God clearly keep repeating He is ONLY, 1, and ALONE but you say no, God is telling lies but
God is not alone
but includes other persons
can be counted as 3
God is not the only God but other persons are there as well.
No wonder you voted for Trump who grabs MARRIED women p**** and thinks he did have unwanted pregnancies and abortions and you think such a fellow is good example for children to follow and create more abortions.
Thanks.
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Intellect
“God never said “I am multiple persons” but Christians on their own wish to worship multiple persons and throw the above clear verses out. “
You haven’t read the OT. God’s screams his plurality.
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does ot scream of yhwh being a dying and rising messiah?
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heathcliff/edward
You’re moving the goalposts.
Answer the question at hand – the depiction of god’s plurality in the OT renders the central claim of islam utterly false.
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“Answer the question at hand – the depiction of god’s plurality in the OT renders the central claim of islam utterly false.”
why do you call it “plurality” and not see the fact that the hebrew bible is self contradictory ?
1 Kings 8:27
“But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!
2 Chronicles 6:18
“But will God really dwell on earth with humans? The heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!
Deut 4:19.
And lest you lift up your eyes to heaven, and see the sun, and the moon, and the stars, all the HOST of heaven, which the Lord your God assigned to all peoples under the entire heaven, and be drawn away to prostrate yourselves before them and worship them.
but then it contradicts itself when it has FULLY god coming down to earth
it is not “yhwh on earth” and “yhwh in heaven” or 2 yhwhs bs
later writers clearly saw a problem in this and had to put distance between yhwh and the finite:
here is proof:
On the question of who Yahweh was you may wish to supplement your reading with Hebrew scholar James L Kugel’s book THE GOD OF OLD , especially the first third of the book which focuses on the image of the “Angel of the Lord” in the Hebrew Bible. Kugel believes the image of the Angel of the Lord allowed later editors and redactors of the texts who were uncomfortable with the older views of an anthropomorphic deity to place a necessary distance between themselves and a deity who had been exalted in later traditions. Of course the redacting was not seamless and we can detect interesting survivals in the texts of the old views. A great book.
the torah is a corrupt book and there is no denying this fact.
you have a fully 100 % anthropomorphised god which ALL scholars acknowledge and then you have DISTANCE between god and FINITE in other places
instead of saying “plurality of god” just admit that you have a CONTRADICTORY god .
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Graham
You said;
Yes seriously. “the Lord Your god is one”, is not a statement of monotheism – it’s a statement about god’s nature. He is one, but why does that even have to be said? Why isn’t it obvious?
I say;
So that idol worshipers will not add another God like Haile Selaissie, Sai Baba, Jesus Christ, monkey, elephant, snake, golden calf etc. to that one God.
Thanks.
g
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Graham
God is one is obvious but people keep adding other gods to that one God. So, God has to keep reminding us that adding Jesus Christ, Haile Selaissie, Sai Baba, Monkey, golden calf, snakes etc. to that one God is a big sin.
There are many sayings in the Bible that are obvious and they are repent, heaven, hell etc. and God kept repeating repent, hell, heaven etc. God does not only repeat He is 1 but repeats other things like hell fire, heaven, repentance etc. which are all obviously said but yet God kept repeating them.
God kept repeating He is one in the scriptures but we still have other people who kept adding other gods to the one God including Christians adding Jesus to the one God to make it more than one. The repetition is warnings and reminders so tjhat you will not blame God for not warning you over and over that He is 1, only and alone as is obvious, clearly said and repeated.
Jesus Christ is not God. Not at all.
Thanks.
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Graham
November 20, 2016 • 11:03 am
Intellect
“God never said “I am multiple persons” but Christians on their own wish to worship multiple persons and throw the above clear verses out. “
You haven’t read the OT. God’s screams his plurality
I say;
May be you do not understand English language. Plural God means polytheism and is against the Bible.
pol·y·the·ism
[ˈpälēTHēˌizəm]
NOUN
the belief in or worship of more than one god.
ORIGIN
early 17th cent.: from French polythéisme, from Greek polutheos ‘of many gods,’ from polu- ‘many’ + theos ‘god.’
RELATED FORMS
polytheism
(noun)
Source: https://www.bing.com/search?q=what+is+polytheism&form=EDGNTC&qs=MB&cvid=f2775ce8f3bc4c189d938ee1d7842d82&pq=what+is+polytheism
———————————-
plu·ral
[ˈplo͝orəl]
ADJECTIVE
more than one in number:
“the meanings of the text are plural”
grammar
(of a word or form) denoting more than one, or (in languages with dual number) more than two:
“the first person plural”
NOUN
grammar
a plural word or form.
the plural number:
“the verb is in the plural”
ORIGIN
late Middle English: from Old French plurel or Latin pluralis, from plus, plur- ‘more.’
RELATED FORMS
plural
(adjective)
Source: https://www.bing.com/search?q=what+is+plural&form=EDGNTC&qs=PF&cvid=d34e29d289d64c24a62580d6f9e99f36&pq=what+is+plural
Mr. Graham, plural means more than one and if you are talking of plural of God, then you are talking of more than one God according to English language and that is polytheism punishable in hell fire according to the Bible.
In the Semitic language the is majestic “we” and we have it in the Quran too but no Muslim will ever think it means God is multiple. It is language like the Queen or King of England will say “we have decreed” etc.
In the English court you will hear
Lord
Your worship etc. and it does not mean someone is God or someone is worshiped there.
That is the language of the Bible and the Quran and do not use that as evidence but bring evidence like how I brought a lot of evidence where God clearly said He is one, only and alone.
I did not rely on plural or singular for my salvation but clear evidence of sentences, phrases and it is clear God is One, only and alone. God is not plural because it is polytheism but God is singular i.e. mono and monotheism.
tri means 3 and there is no “I am Tri or Trinity” in the whole Bible but you can find “God is 1” , “I am 1, only and alone.
If you insist on plural of God, then you are not alone but Mormons, Rastafarians, Hindus, idol worshipers etc. all believe in plural God but you are all polytheists and punishable by hell fire.
Thanks.
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Thank you for the post Mozer G. It has certainly generated much debate!
You write:
‘In the Scriptures we find two types of people who were anointed, and therefore called “messiah”;
Aaron the Priest, and all his male descendants (Exodus 30:30; see Leviticus 4:3)
Kings (1 Samuel 10:1, 16:13; see 2 Samuel 1:16).’
In point of fact in the Bible we find other types of messiah described. Many people are anointed in the Hebrew Bible and many are referred to as the messiah or anointed one.
God instructs Elijah to anoint his own successor, Elisha son of Shaphat, as prophet, 1 Kings 19:16:
‘Also you shall anoint Jehu son of Nimshi as king over Israel; and you shall anoint Elisha son of Shaphat of Abel-meholah as prophet in your place.’
Also, the Persian (ie gentile) emperor Cyrus is the only foreigner in the Bible to be identified as the messiah or anointed one of Yahweh. Isaiah tells us that Yahweh spoke “to his messiah, to Cyrus, whom I [Yahweh] took by his right hand to subdue nations before him” (Isa 45:1).
So your claim that ‘according to the Jewish scriptures, Jesus does not meet the qualifications for being the long promised Messiah’ begs the question: what kind of messiah? Jesus was certainly a Jewish prophet and anointed by God, therefore by definition a messiah according to the available Biblical definitions of ‘messiah’.
The Dead Sea Scrolls contains The Community Rule (Hebrew Serekh ha-Yahad (סרך היחד)), which is designated 1QS. This scroll expects TWO messiahs one of whom is a prophet.
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“In point of fact in the Bible we find other types of messiah described. Many people are anointed in the Hebrew Bible and many are referred to as the messiah or anointed one.” PW
Born of virgins? Raising the dead? Claiming to be God? Feeding thousands with a few loaves and fish and taking up buckets of leftovers? No one compares to Him.
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‘Raising the dead? Feeding thousands with a few loaves and fish and taking up buckets of leftovers’
Clearly you have not read the Jewish Bible where prophets are recorded as doing precisely these things.
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“Born of virgins? Raising the dead? Claiming to be God? Feeding thousands with a few loaves and fish and taking up buckets of leftovers? No one compares to Him.”
and you people tell us that you don’t worship a human being, what a damn lie.
notice how you have to “picturize ” a flesh being doing x, y z
and you tell us you don’t worship a human being
you POINT TO it and say it is “god”
you have him “working ” in one tiny spot, whereas HASHEM/ALLAH works the entire UNIVERSE
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Paul
“So your claim that ‘according to the Jewish scriptures, Jesus does not meet the qualifications for being the long promised Messiah’ begs the question: what kind of messiah? Jesus was certainly a Jewish prophet and anointed by God, therefore by definition a messiah according to the available Biblical definitions of ‘messiah’.”
This is a bit of a red herring.
he question should be: what kind of messiah does the quran say jesus is? That’s the unresolved elephant in the masjid.
Mozer’s article is fundamentally pointless on an islamic blog since islam can’t identify any significant meaning to the quran’s use of the term “messiah”.
Your argument boils down to “lots of people were anointed, jesus is a messiah!!!!”
That is all sorts of wrong.
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Graham: //Mozer’s article is fundamentally pointless on an islamic blog since islam can’t identify any significant meaning to the quran’s use of the term “messiah”.
Your argument boils down to “lots of people were anointed, jesus is a messiah!!!!”// –
You obviously missed the point, Jesus qualify as a messiah because many people anointed as messiah, kings. priests, prophets, certainly Jesus qualifies according to biblical criterion. In my post I have argued that according to Qur’an Jesus is not just an ordinary messiah , he was the messiah.The one special messiah, being the last in the line of the hebrew prophets who was sent by God as teacher/warner to Jewish people to salvation by showing them the right way to God.
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it is for that reason that i started off by saying that we’re having a discussion and not a debate. for there’s nothing to debate here between muslims and jews…
should i follow up on pt. 2 or is it a waste?
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valid point. i had that realization after it was published. i hope to revise it. there’s similar terminology in Isaiah 61:1. thanks [in that way perhaps the quran means that jesus was a prophet….]
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“It will be quickly obvious that they often referred to him as a servant of God, but never Son of God. [FALSE]
Peter, for example, said: “The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus” (Acts 3:13). Peter further said: “God raised up his servant” (Acts 3:26), where the title servant refers to Jesus.
Not only Peter, but the entire group of believers viewed Jesus as God’s servant. When they raised their voices together in prayer to God, in the course of their speaking to God they called Jesus “your holy servant Jesus whom you anointed” (Acts 4:27). They repeated this title also in verse 30. Consistently, Jesus was being called servant of God by the original followers of Jesus.”
“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Peter answered, “You are the Messiah.” They answered, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others say You are one of the prophets.” 29 “But who do you say I am?” He asked. Peter answered, “You are the Christ.” 30 And Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about Him.…
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Who was He?
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With all the effort made to disprove his divinity for 2,000 years, it is remarkable beyond description how this individual remains unscathed. Consider the time and energy, the scholarship, the passion, the hatred and bitterness, the devotion directed at destroying Him and yet nothing has changed; not a dent or chip or scar have harmed his integrity. That speaks volumes.
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Jesus said he had a God just as we do.
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if only we knew what other christs were being preached in pauls day.
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“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Peter answered, “You are the Messiah.” They answered, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others say You are one of the prophets.” 29 “But who do you say I am?” He asked. Peter answered, “You are the Christ.” 30 And Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about Him.…”
“i am i am he” saith the christian
“christ” saith pete
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“Hence, Islam teaches that God rescued the noble Jesus by removing him from this world. God raised him to the heavens, to a place near Him, and will cause him to return to this world at a later time.” WHYISLAM
He never died and He isn’t here. He is with God in heaven. What was so special about this man, born to a virgin, who performed a wide variety of miraculous deeds continuously like no one ever had before or has since, even though he had no form nor comeliness that we should desire him, that God would spare him death so that he could return to earth during his second coming and then die?
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“miraculous deeds continuously like no one ever had before or has since”
for the love of god …. he never done any of them.
“i can of my own self do nothing…”
can the father, of his own self do everything?
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” even though he had no form nor comeliness that we should desire him”
then mary wouldn’t have poured oil on him
https://edward-t-babinski.blogspot.co.uk/2011/02/perfumed-jesus.html
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The religious leaders attempted to kill him, but he got out of harm’s way before the rocks hit and injured him. They armed themselves because he said “before Abraham was, I am.”
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“They armed themselves because he said “before Abraham was, I am.”
but this is johns jesus. and mark warned you about johns jesus
He replied: “Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them.
“i am…”
paul also had many christs in his time who claimed to be from a different spirit.
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see? many will say
ANI hu
and perform wonders and signs
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Jesus, though he was only a baby, spoke to them. He began, “Surely I am a servant of God; He has given me the Book and made me a prophet” (Quran, 19:30). Immediately this shows that Jesus was a human as well, just as his mother was. Mary then brought up her son for the duration of her life.
WHYISLAM
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What was so special about this man, born to a virgin, who performed a wide variety of miraculous deeds continuously like no one ever had before or has since, even though he had no form nor comeliness that we should desire him, that God would spare him death so that he could return to earth during his second coming and then die?
No one?
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you already said that. laters mate, i’m off to chip shop.
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bit late?
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“Hence, Islam teaches that God rescued the noble Jesus by removing him from this world. God raised him to the heavens, to a place near Him…”
Why, anyone? What made him so special and where is he now?
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Why is it Paul that no one will answer these questions about Jesus? A little quip here and a diversion there don’t answer or address the issues, especially in depth. Why?
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because they have been answered many times before on this blog. You are new around these parts..
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Paul, that is true. I am new and thanks for everything you do to make this available to us.
But, a few do make an occasional half-hearted jab at answering the questions, so that is not true that they are not answered because they’ve all been answered before. And, it’s not just my questions.
Feigning a real answer is worse than an incorrect one. These issues are the keys to the Kingdom, life and death, heaven and hell. That we, you and I and others, determine what the truth is of utmost and eternal importance. These discussions are more valuable than all the money, position, power, status combined, in all of history past and in all of the future and right now.
Souls exit this dimension every second. No second chances. THE TRUTH yields life and joy and peace.
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Where is he now?
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You asking where I am? I’ll tell you the truth, it’s extremely difficult and time consuming to sit and answer every comment. I am a full time student and have an extremely exhausting schedule. I can put away some time to write and article, but keeping up with answering all comments takes a great toll on me. I did it till now because I felt that if I didn’t than it would mean I can’t stand up for what I’ve said, after seeing the comments I realized there are two types of comments; inquiries to further appreciate the article by further elaboration and explanation. And asking relevant questions. And then there is those who are out there to get you by veering off topic or trying to explain their position no matter what. The former is nice the latter is a waste. Most of the answers of the first category I’ve defended and answered, yet there are some of them that I didn’t yet. The mistake I made which I terribly regret (in this post and the first post) that I got pulled into irrelevant debate on subjects that our positions are obvious and no one wants to hear just state their own opinion. I hope not to make that mistake again. So, you asked where I was? Do you really have an argument directly regarding the lineage of Jesus and davids kingdom? Or is your argument that Jesus was awesome because he was born of a virgin and performed miracles and people believed in him and therefore…
do you really think that someone writing about Jesus doesn’t know what the Christian position is? You know that I know that you think he was the Davidic messiah. In my article I asked a question. You have an answer to directly address the lineage issue? If yes I don’t think you’ve brought it up yet.
I hope you don’t take it as a personal attack because my frustration is not agains you, it’s against myself. It’s my fault.
Thanks God Bless
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also just because you ask a question don’t expect to always get an answer. It doesn’t work like that. You preach a lot and that puts people off.
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Paul, the majority of comments here are bathed in hatred for my God and for Christians. To be fair, allowing a few comments from others who disagree with them probably won’t alter the thrust or the tenor of what is communicated here.
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Plus, some of the responses are childish and not worthy of further input.
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Hank, I can talk for myself when I say that I do truly appreciate dialogue. But if you see something that you know won’t go anywhere “not worth further input” as you say, then DONT INPUT FURTHER. You’re wasting your time and everyone’s energy… if you want to explore a subject together that’s beautiful and everyone wants to hear comments like that, but if you try convince a devout Muslim of the trinity let’s say, from arguments that there was never someone as awesome as Jesus etc. you’re just wasting time…
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Hey Mozer. Thanks for being polite.
No. I wasn’t asking where were you, but where is Jesus? According to the Qur’an, he never died. Apparently, He was returned to God where He waits for His Second Coming. Then he will die. At least that’s what my understanding is now.
If that’s true, I have to wonder why He was considered so special that God would cause Him to be born of a virgin, perform great and numerous miracles only to have Him return to God and die later on? What made Jesus the object of such great favor? Not asking you so you need not answer. That is okay.
I had hoped that people who know Islam well would provide well thought out, intelligent answers to the numerous questions I’ve asked. That is not what I’ve found to be the case. Now, I know why.
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paulus
“Peter wasn’t the only Jew to see Jesus as the messiah. There was a large movement who believed such.”
paulus did peter see yhwh as dying and rising messiah?
quote:
I first considered all the figures from that same time period who were considered Messiahs: figures like Yochanan Gush haLav, Shim’on bar Gyorah, Eliezer ben Shim’on, Menachem ben Yehud, Yehud Gamla (Judas of Galilee), Eliezer ben Ya’ir, Theudas, The Egyptian, Shim’on bar Kokhba, Yochanan haMetavil (John the Baptist), and, of course, Yeshu’a haN’azori (Jesus the Nazorean).
end quote
many of these put their money where their mouth is and tried to trump the oppressors , but like jesus (nt jesus) they failed.
there was a LARGE movement which saw the above characters as messiah
”
Do you any opinion why many first century Jews took Jesus to be messiah? Any opinion why they didn’t understand lineage the way you describe?”
why were others listed above taken as messiah?
why did your “messiah” leave palestine and take on version 2.0 i.e dying and rising yhwh???
nothing bart ehrman writes is making sense any more
he wrote:
“They had thought, before his death, that he was the messiah. It is the only reason they could have thought so after his death.”
“The crucifixion completely and utterly destroyed all the hopes that the disciples had about the future, the identity of their master jesus
and their own roles in the future state of Israel. Nothing could have destroyed these hopes more thoroughly or convincingly. The execution of jesus was not simply an awful tragedy for him personally – an unspeakable tragedy – it was the death knell for everything he proclaimed and stood for, that the powers of evil were soon to be destroyed and a utopian kingdom would come with him at the head of it. So much for *that* idea. It not only didn’t happen. It was shown to be what it was, a chimeric vision of a weak creature brutally destroyed by the powers whose demise he had predicted.”
1. the pre-crucified jesus did not think that he was going to die and god would intervene anytime soon. repent for the kingdom of god is at hand.
2. the pre-crucified jesus thought that his disciples will get rewarded here on earth
since everyone fled and knew jesus was false messiah, why would the same disciples who heard him making imminent promises still stick with him by reconciling post-crucified with pre-crucified?
unless like christian apologists today they tried to reconcile jesus claims, but this seem unlikely so it seems that someone outside of israel had a hand in shaping your pagan religion.
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“I don’t think Jesus had a big following.” Mozer
“Multiple thousands”
hank,
are you talking about
version 1 which was pre-crucified jesus or
version 2 which was post crucified jesus
the post one was being rejected and driven out , so there is no way he could have had “multiple thousands”
and acts is known for exaggerating and lying and making up unnoticed success.
the pre-crucified one didn’t have anyone recognise him as messiah
“the secrets of the kingdom of god have been given to you but those on the outside…”
the secret of dying and rising messiah dose has been injected into every word of the nt and pre-crucified jesus is lost to us and has to be recovered through guess work
tells peter ” get behind me satan…”
agains, post crucified has been injected into the text
hank , dying and rising yhwh is making no sense
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quote:
When pagan sources do discuss Christians, they are always maligned as a small, secretive, exclusive group with no power, prestige, or, even, intelligent members. They are not presented as a real and present danger, a threat to the religious or moral fabric of society. Christians are portrayed as weird outcasts completely on the margins of society, lower class, inferior, ignorant, and in a tiny minority.
hank, we know christians writers writing later on are liars 4 jesus
an angel of the lord floored the guards and still the lies were able to be known “till this day” which implies pathetic success rate for “angel of the lord”
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The Quran describes Jesus as a very special individual, IMO. Who else was born of a virgin?
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Augustus
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According to the Quran?
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http://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/11161
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“O Jesus, I will cause you to die, and exalt you to My presence, and clear you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve till the day of Judgment.” (3:54)
2:87 We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit.
2:136 We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma’il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them . . .
3:45 O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.
3:46 “He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous.”Not only that, but his mother is praised for her wonderful charcter.
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No. There was no other. He is the focus of the entire world, whether he is hated or he is loved. He is the pivotal point, the pivotal person throughout history, who somehow draws the attention of great and meek, of scholar and child, old and young, of all races, nationalities, male and female. There has never been another like Him at all.
Not preaching Paul, in the sense that these are facts. Just undisputed facts, you know?
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The Quran describes Jesus as a very special individual, IMO. Who else was born of a virgin? – Hank
We could similarly ask then Adam (ra) was a very special individual too because he was chosen to be the father of humanity and Eve (ra) since she was chosen to be the mother of humankind.
Qur’an 3:59, “The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: “Be”. And he was.”
So, there is nothing “especially unique” about being born of a virgin as both Adam(ra) and Eve(ra) were unique about the way they were created as well.
In a way it shows the completeness of God’s creation quartet.
Adam(ra) – created without any male or female intervention
Eve(ra) – from male (Adam), no female
Jesus(pbuh) – from a female, no male
Rest of mankind – from both male and female
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well put!
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“Yes seriously. “the Lord Your god is one”, is not a statement of monotheism – it’s a statement about god’s nature”
when a pagan polytheistic christian like you says , “i worship 1 god”
what you really mean is that you worship
all seeing, all hearing, all knowing etc minus person?
you worship :
“the lord your god is one nature”
so you worship 1 nature?
are you an ability/nature worshipper?
how many abilities do you attribute to each person?
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heathcliff
Your’re that edward guy aren’t you?
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Among others
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Shalom Mozer,
Thank you for sharing some of the perspective of many Jews today about Jesus regarding whether he can be the messiah.
In addition to the questions of Paul above, I had some questions when you have time.
1. Did not the 10 tribes of the Northern Kingdom disagree that only the descendants of David (peace be upon him) can be Kings of Israel.
That would be a large portion of the Children of Israel since it is 10 out of 12 tribes.
2. Jesus (peace be upon him) claimed to be the messiah. If the issue of being a descendant of David is a requirement, then why do we not see that point raised by Pharisees in the New Testament. Do you think it was raised and the authors of the New Testament did not mention it or did not know that it was raised?
3. It said in outreachjudaism.org that “In fact, Luke claims that Mary was the cousin of Elizabeth, who he says was a descendant of Aaron the high priest,1 placing her in the tribe of Levi, not David’s tribe of Judah.”
If Jesus was born of a virgin, does that mean he has no lineage at all? I can understand that according to the verse in Numbers that you provided a person has his lineage through the father. However, my interpretation of that is that of the two parents, it is the father’s lineage that trumps (sorry for using the name of this egomaniac) over the mother’s lineage.
However, if a person does not have a father, then I think it is reasonable to assume that his lineage is through the mother and since Mary was of the House of Aaron, Jesus would be likewise. And Paul above mentioned that the verses in the Tanakh (Exodus 30:30; see Leviticus 4:3) indicate that the the male descendants of Aaron are annointed to be priests.
4. Paul refers to 1 Kings (19:16) ‘Also you shall anoint Jehu son of Nimshi as king over Israel; and you shall anoint Elisha son of Shaphat of Abel-meholah as prophet in your place.’
Since Jehu was of the Northern Kingdom, then does this not mean he was not a descendant of David? (I am asking since I assume that the descendants of David were in the Southern Kingdom and Jerusalem was in the Southern Kingdom?
5. Do Jews today know with certainty what tribes they are from? If someone claims to be the messiah that my Jewish brothers and sister are expecting in the future, how can they know for sure that he is a descendant of David?
Shalom,
your brother,
Omer
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Omer
Where in the quran does jesus make the claim that he is the messiah?
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Graham,
Red herring
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Hi. To shortly answer your valid questions. 1. The kingdom of Israel was seen as a punishment to to Solomon for turning away from davids righteous ways, and for Rechavam not heeding to the prophet, it was a temporary kingdom, not there to stay.Unlike Davids kingdom who God preserved until the end of the Temple, and god repeatedly vowed to bring restore, the kingdom of the north is gone forever.
2. In all seriousness I don’t think the Pharisees believed he was born of a virgin, had they believed that they wouldn’t treat him the way they did. Even in the NT the virgin birth is only mentioned twice, I argue, had it been so widely accepted, it would’ve been on every page. I’m not going into the argument if it was fortold by the Jewish prophets or not, I’m saying there’s no evidence that I know of that the virgin birth was central in the times of Jesus himself. (See verses in article that god says he’ll be a father to the kings of Judah and they will be to him like a son, when the NT calls him with similar name still doesn’t imply that everyone thought he was a biological son of god
3. It says there that “she” is of the tribe of Levi, indeed. Because her father was. Her son however will go according to his father. And in that respect, he is not a levite. The logic that if someone doesn’t have a tribe from his father he should go to that of his mother is nice but it doesn’t work that way, there’s a story in the Bible where there’s the son of an Egyptian who whose mother was Jewish and therefore he too is Jewish (hopefully we’ll get to why heritage goes by the father and Judaism goes by mother, but that’s the law) but was rejected from the camp he was in because his mother was from that tribe but because his father wasn’t because his father didn’t have a tribe, he too didn’t have. So Jesus according to what I wrote cannot be a priest and he never made that claim neither does the Quran or the NT make it.
4. No, it doesn’t mean. As Paul cited Cyrus was also anointed as well as the prophet.
5. Maimonides says that there will be a prophet who will come before the messiah and say that he is Davidic. The prophet have a vetting system, which we will hopefully get into later. The Jews today don’t really know for sure, but most of them have some clue for it was slightly passed down from generation to generation in some cases but no one knows for sure
Salam; I hope I was helpful. All the best. God bless
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Hi Graham,
Please check out the following link for the verses.
http://www.quranicstudies.com/historical-jesus/the-quranic-verses-that-mention-the-title-messiah/
By the way, Graham, please check out this http://www.quranicstudies.com
website…it’s very good.
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Paul can you delete some of the irrelevant comments here ? like some of Graham’s ?
Back to Mozer G , I am very interested in the evidence that says prophethood stopped short of Jesus not the VETTING procedure, I hope you understand what I’m driving at , if prophethood continued even at the time of jesus ,what says he can’t be a prophet? (here I’ll gladly welcome the vetting mechanisms)
if he can be a prophet, prophets are anointed by God ,right?
hence the POSSIBILITY of his being A messiah is there isn’t it ?
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I do delete many of the comments by Graham. Perhaps I should blacklist him.
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His comments are a repetitive distraction from serious conversation.
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Mozer,
May the Lord Jesus rebuke you for your satanic twist of scripture. Do you not hide the absolute truh? Are u not trying to put holes in the only hope mankind has? Do you think you can do this by one verse that your intellectual perverted. Will you not try to deceive even the elect if you can? What is your faith? Where is the line of David today? So it can assure man of your Christ. Where is the temp atoning sacrifice? Where is your temple? Have you corrupted what YHVH requires of you? Are you the sons of Cain who offered plantation? Are you putting doubt in the children of God as the serpent did from the beginning? Do you not know that you would have twisted not only one verse or two, but the whole old testament and new in order to keep scripture from talking about Christ and how Jesus fulfilled all of that. Finally, my Lord told me about you when he said through 2 Peter 2
2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
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holy cow… this is more than i signed up for… we’ll talk…
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Looks like someone went off their medication!
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Niaz
Your comment is belligerent and doesn’t contribute anything of value to the conversation.
If your theological thinking has not evolved enough to cope with some basic textual historical critiscm then I would advise u to stay far away from this blog, go back to your fundamentalist Church and and take refuge there from the world of modern scholarship.
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BTW are you going to burn me at the stake???
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I understand where this blog is aiming. To discount Jesus as Massaia. And that is what I responded to. To pursue how Mozer is doing it, is child play, for the reasonability is from karnality. Mozer, I love you too much to burn you at the stake. Actually, its my head that may be chopped by your faith type. If it’s God’s will, so be it. I have been transformed by the Jesus you speak of, from a karnal christian to a follower of Christ. His miracles are evident even today in my life and the lives of many Muslims who see him in a vision. The bottom line is faith, faith comes from the heart, and the heart writes by faith either for or against God.
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First of all quote to the contrary most of the authors and visitors on this blog very much does believe that Jesus is the messiah. Just not what you call messiah a man god. The rest of your comment is unclear to me I think you’re trying to say that Jesus inspires you.. that’s good… and he inspires Muslims.. that’s nice…
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“I have been transformed by the Jesus you speak of, from a karnal christian to a follower of Christ. His miracles are evident even today in my life and the lives of many Muslims who see him in a vision. ”
have you drunk deadly poison ? have you moved mountains? even the disciples didn’t believe, had they believed, they would have run to the tomb, through faith removed the stone and raised jesus back to life.
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Sadly God has not inspired you with correct punctuation, grammer, and spelling…. 😦
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*grammar
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“Sadly God has not inspired you with correct punctuation, grammer, and spelling….😦”
grammer????
I believe this word is spelt grammar 🙂
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he was speaking in foreign english.
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Pawr literacie is kewl!
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like Niaz’s too ?
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Hi Graham,
Please check out this list from Louay Fatoohi’s quranicstudies website.
And please check out his website. It is brilliant and very beneficial.
This is Appendix A: The Qur’anic Verses that Mention the Title “Messiah” of the book The Mystery of the Messiah: The Messiahship of Jesus in the Qur’an, New Testament, Old Testament, and Other Sources
The Term al-Masih (the Messiah) occurs in the Qur’an eleven times. These are the nine different verses in which the term appears:
When the angels said: “O Mary! Allah gives you the good news of a Word from Him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, who is illustrious in this world and the hereafter, and who is one of those brought near [to Allah]. (3.45)
And because of their saying: “We killed the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah’s messenger.” They did not kill or crucify him, but it was made to appear so to them. Those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof, but a conjecture they follow; they did not kill him for certain. (4.157)
O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion or utter anything concerning Allah but the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, His Word that He sent to Mary, and a Spirit from Him [that He sent]. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and do not say “Three.” Desist, it is better for you! Allah is one God. Far exalted is He above having offspring. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth. Allah is sufficient a disposer of affairs. (4.171) The Messiah would never scorn to be a servant to Allah, nor would the angels who are nearest to Allah. As for those who scorn His service and are arrogantly proud, He shall gather them all to Himself to answer. (4.172)
They have indeed disbelieved those who say: “Allah is the Messiah son of Mary.” Say [O Muhammad!]: “Who then can do anything against Allah if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, his mother, and everyone on earth?” Allah’s is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He creates what He wills. Allah is able to do all things. (5.17)
Surely they disbelieve those who say: “Allah is the Messiah son of Mary.” The Messiah himself said: “O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Whoever joins other gods with Allah, for him Allah has forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. The evildoers shall have no helpers.” (5.72)
The Messiah son of Mary was no other than a messenger before whom [similar] messengers passed away, and his mother was a saintly woman. They used to eat food [like other human beings]. See how We make the revelations clear to them, and see how they are deluded! (5.75)
The Jews say: “‘Uzayr is the son of Allah”, and the Christians say: “The Messiah is the son of Allah”. That is a saying from their mouths, imitating the saying of the disbelievers of old. May Allah fight them! How deluded they are! (9.30) They have taken their rabbis and monks as lords besides Allah, and so they treated the Messiah son of Mary, although they were not commanded to worship other than One God; there is no God save Him. Far exalted is He above their attribution of partners to Him! (9.31)
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Bismillah,
I was expecting from Mozer to discuss the topic from Islamic perspective why Jesus is the Messiah. Quoting Matthew and Luke to reject Jesus has nothing to do with us as muslims. We may use those books as marginal evidences by filtering them with Quran. However, They are not the base of our faith that Jesus pbuh is the Messiah.
Dr Immanuel Schochet in his debate with Dr Brown in which he engulfed dr Brown with one bite stated the following :
” The word (Messiah) related to Messiah is NOT mentioned ONCE in the hebrew bible. That’s a late Rabbinic concept. ”
Do you agree with Rabbi Schochet?
Moreover, the matter of (prophethood) has always been something belongs to Allah alone. The prophets of Allah are chosen by Allah according to his knowledge about those men. They are not chosen according to our desires whether we are jews or muslims.
Surah 2:87
” And Indeed We gave unto Moses the Book(Torah) and followed up after him with messengers. And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear proofs, and strengthened him with the Pure Spirit. Is it [not] that whenever a messenger brought to you something, [O Children of Israel], your souls did not desire, you waxed arrogant? And a party [of messengers] you denied and another party you slew”
You may read the same core of this message in this verse in the book of Jeremiah.
Also, Paul who was a jew fabricated new teaching about Jesus to match his desires which were by most hellenistic ones.
Authors of gospels fabricated many stories about Jesus to make him fit with what they had thought about “the qualifications ” of messiah
However, as I said before, the most important thing about Jesus pbuh according to Quran that he’s a prophet and a messenger from Allah. As muslims, we have no right to decide what the messiah should be .
Surah 5:75
“The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded.”
That’s should be enough for us. Aaron peace be upon him got anointed according to hebrew bible to be a priest, and he was a prophet. We know from Quran that Mary was from Aaronic lineage. She was pledged to serve Allah and his house(Masjid) before she was born even.
Surah 3:35
“[Mention, O Muhammad], when the wife of ‘Imran said, “My Lord, indeed I have pledged to You what is in my womb, consecrated [for Your service], so accept this from me. Indeed, You are the Hearing, the Knowing.”
Moreover, Jesus was sent for the children of Israel only. His miracles was targeting Israelites. Why?
Because many israelites got deviated from this basic article of faith that if you didn’t believe in, you are not a believer. This article is ( Belief in the day of Judgment),i.e the last day which includes belief of resurrection, the life hereafter, the Paradise, and the Fire. Jesus’s miraculous birth, his miracle of raising the dead ones, and the clay birds. All of these miracles have one theme which is the belief in the day of judgment which is mostly linked with belief in Allah in Quran and Sunnah.
Also, the matter of covenant with Israelites plays a big issue in this topic. Israelites can’t stop thinking that the covenant with them are unconditional. However, it’s always been conditional. Furthermore, In Islam, the covenant with (Israelites) is still active and obligatory. You may read that in Surah 5:12-13. However, the matter of covenant is a topic by itself, so I’m not going to discuss this topic by details.
Why I’m telling this ?
Because the Davidic messiah should deliver Israelites according to jews, then they have to believe in him! while in Quran and Hebrew bible it’s the other way around. If a person is approved that he’s a prophet from Allah, then you have to believe in him, then the rewards will come including the land which will be given for righteous people only. Otherwise jews have to accuse God that he didn’t fulfill his promise with actual israelites who crossed the Sea with Moses pbuh since no one of them entered that land except two, and that’s because they had refused to fight with Moses.
The conditional status is very clear in this passage of leviticus.
” But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the foreigners residing among you must not do any of these detestable things, 27 for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. 28 And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you.”
Rabbi, Jeremy Gimpel, for example, said to christian audience while he was basically softening with them , he said the following:
“When a man comes, and he fights the world for Israel, defeats the enemies, builds the temple, Peace on earth! The leader that did that, we will all kneel before the king! Whoever that’s ! Your vision of this (he addressing christians) is second coming ! OK! We (jews) it’s the first coming” .
This kind of manipulative relationship between 2 tracks of beliefs which have nothing to do with each other as Dr Reza Aslan described it is forbidden in Islam since it’s not based on sincerity rather it’s based on kissing as* of each other. Also, the passages that jews linked with the davidic messiah are contradictory somehow & foggy.
Quran declares
“They say, “Be Jews or Christians [so] you will be guided.” Say, “Rather, [we follow] the religion of Abraham, inclining toward truth, and he was not of the polytheists.”
“Say, [O believers], “We have believed in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him.”
“So if they believe in the same as you believe in, then they have been [rightly] guided; but if they turn away, they are only in dissension, and Allah will be sufficient for you against them. And He is the Hearing, the Knowing.”
Notes :
*Br.Fawaz & br. Paul wrote very important points and questions which I think they must be considered.
* We can argue about other meanings for (Massih) in arabic based on that template.
In Sum, Jesus is the messiah according to Quran.
Allah knows the best.
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You too have brought up many valid points. First of all, I didn’t think you want to hear my position in the Muslim view of Jesus? That’s not my field. I can tell you what the Hebrew bible would say of him. Secondly, I agree that it’s kissing as*. Jews and christians look for fundamentally different things in a messiah. Regarding the Jews in the holy land and the condition. It is true that God said that he’ll kick the Jews out of Israel but also states that they will repent and god will bring them back. It is prophesied by all prophets that the Jews will be exiled and at the end of days they will return. So while the stay is conditional the land still belongs to them according to scripture. Like God saying I’ll kick you out of the house I gave you until you are a good boy and then you’ll all come back. I agree that the gospel fabricated stories. I don’t understand why you insist that you don’t have a right to say what the Quran meant, isn’t that what learning is for? We try to understand what our scriptures teach. I think our friend Paul raised a beautiful point with referencing the verses where men of stature and importance like prophets and gentile kings were called anointed. It can then be consistent with the Quran that indeed Jesus was messiah but not a Davidic king…
I do agree with rabbi shochet, it is very interesting indeed that none of the times that messiah appears in the Bible is it with reference to “the messiah” (christians will point to Daniel 9:25-26 but like all their “proofs” this is a distortion) it is a Talmudic term, and therefore popular in the times of Jesus. If Jesus was born of a virgin like the Quran writes than my entire article is just as valid. I just pointed out that the christians who claim that he’s a king (unlike in Islam where there’s no such claim as Eric pointed out in his article) they shoot themselves in the foot…
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” also states that they will repent and god will bring them back. It is prophesied by all prophets that the Jews will be exiled and at the end of days they will return”
You have returned!
You’ve returned with a western secular state. It’s not a Toratic state. You can’t even dare to apply Torah .
You can’t repent and continue your covenant with God while you keep rejecting the messiah Jesus and the prophet Muhammed peace be upon them all.
=====================
“And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me.” 2 Samuel 7:8-16 ”
Do you think this is a true prophecy or not? Where is the throne of David ?
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it means that whatever happens God will not establish a different king besides of the davidic line, as he had done to saul.
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What about 2 Samuel 7:14?
Is it about the promised messiah?
I appreciate your interpretation for 2 Samuel 7:17, but I don’t find it convincing.
===================
Let me refer to some marginal points.
Saul according to Quran was a righteous king, yet he was not a prophet.
Also, even his co-opting by Allah faced many objections from israelites.
Surah 2:247
“And their prophet said to them, “Indeed, Allah has sent to you Saul as a king.” They said, “How can he have kingship over us while we are more worthy of kingship than him and he has not been given any measure of wealth?” He said, “Indeed, Allah has chosen him over you and has increased him abundantly in knowledge and stature. And Allah gives His sovereignty to whom He wills. And Allah is all-Encompassing [in favor] and Knowing.”
The kingship and the prophethood got combined for the first time with David pbuh. After David, they got combined with Solomon pbuh. Quran praised them as righteous prophets both.
It’s interesting that Quran didn’t label David as a king rather Khalifa( successor).
Surah 38:26
” [We said], “O David, indeed We have made you a successor upon the earth, so judge between the people in truth and do not follow [your own] desire, as it will lead you astray from the way of Allah .” Indeed, those who go astray from the way of Allah will have a severe punishment for having forgotten the Day of Account”.
Jesus & David peace be upon them combined in this verse Surah 5:78
“Cursed were those who disbelieved among the Children of Israel by the tongue of David and of Jesus, the son of Mary. That was because they disobeyed and [habitually] transgressed”.
“They used not to prevent one another from wrongdoing that they did. How wretched was that which they were doing.”
:
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Hi first to your second point I don’t see th Quran attributing kingdom to Jesus more than purity. And in that sense the Quran says that David and Jesus are equally pure.
Regarding the uniqueness of davids combination of prophecy and kingdom, in the verse by Nathan’s statement it still stresses the difference by the fact that God will not replace him like he’d done with Saul. Kingdom and prophecy are independent of each other but can be in one man. Saul was a king because God chose him, and his kingdom was no less legitimate than David’s. The succession and vow was what differentiated them.
Verse 14 is about Solomon, for the same verse appears in first chronicles 17 and 28 and there it’s clear that it’s talking about Solomon
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Mozer,
Could you clarify more ! Are you saying that 2 Samuel 7:16 is about the promised messiah, but 2 Samuel 7:17 is about Solomon?
If so, what makes you do this transition? It seems arbitrary, doesn’t it?
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Hi Mozer
While this may seem slightly off topic i would like ask you a question with regards to lineage. According to your post the Tanakh states that lineage comes through the fathers line. However in Orthodox and Conservative Judaism it is well recognised that the lineage is through the mother. While i do not yet agree with the Christians who say this but when it comes to Lukes genealogy of Jesus, one is considered to be through the line of St Mary, which is Davidic.
My question is, what is the Jewish position on this?
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Patrice,
In order for Jesus to have Davidic Status and be “the seed” of Abraham as well, he has to have…well…”the seed” of his father. SInce he was the virgin born adopted son of Joseph he did not receive the humanly seed of either patriarch in either lineage found in Matthew or Luke.
Luke is documenting the lineage of Joseph, not Mary and to say so would be reading something into the text that is not there, as neither lineage in Matt or Luke actually mentions Mary by name.
Even if Heli was Mary’s supposed biological father, and the adoptive father of Joseph, there is still no seed, therefore no Davidic descent.
Keep in mind that while the above undermines Christian theology, according to Qur’an, Jesus does not require the prerequisite of Davidic status to be Messiah or Prophet. Allah chooses whom he wills, and is not limited by any earthly rule.
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A very good question Patrice!
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Dear Mozer,
You mentioned “I just pointed out that the christians who claim that he’s a king (unlike in Islam where there’s no such claim as Eric pointed out in his article) they shoot themselves in the foot…”
I appreciate your point that the attribution of a King to Jesus by Christians is refutable.
It seems that you are implying that since the Qur’an does not point him as a King but as a spiritual and moral reformer, then there the way the Qur’an is portraying Jesus as a messiah is valid. Am I understanding you correctly.
If that is so, I am quite pleased by that.
And thank you very much for appreciating the Quranic perspective although you mentioned that this is not your field.
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I did mean that. And thanks 🙂
But I want to make clear. That I said that from a Quranic point of view it is not contradictory to say that he was the messiah and not of David. To Jews (and christians for that matter) it is not that way for to us the messiah is primarily a king. God bless you
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“King David refers to himself as “The Messiah” more times than any other biblical figure:”
Rabbi Skobac says “The Messiah” (ha maschiach) is not mentioned in the Hebrew Bible
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Technically, you’re right. Ha-moshiach would by like saying al-Moshiach, and because the Bible does not refer to the king of the end of times as moshiach, it doesn’t say Ha-moshiach. However, the term “mashiach” does appear and hardly used on one person more than once, Cyrus Saul and maybe another figure or two are called mashiach. David is repeatedly referred to by that term which makes his anointment something extraordinary. There are even more verses that I didn’t quote in the article.
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Wow, Mozer, just hang on there bro, you have generated tsunami of comments and inquiries for just one post, equivalent for the whole year to me. 😉 . some are nice a few not, even at the point to burn you at stake. keep watching your back 🙂 ..
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Thanks Eric 😉
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“In other words, the Jews are waiting for a king. Jesus can be many things, a Davidic king is not one of them. Regarding the first question I think it’s clear from Nathan’s prophecy that it is an unconditional Vow.”
Why are they waiting if the promise is unconditional? Beginning with Solomon the throne and kingdom should have been perpetual in that case and Solomon’s descendants should be reigning perpetually over the same kingdom up to the present day. Or does God not keep his promises?
“Joseph is a descendant of Nathan. Disqualified.”
I don’t agree.
“I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.”
Solomon was the immediate fulfilment but he wasn’t the ultimate fulfilment. Otherwise he would have to live forever.
“6 And he said unto me, Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts: for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father. 7 Moreover I will establish his kingdom for ever, if he be constant to do my commandments and my judgments, as at this day.
Solomon wasn’t constant to keep God’s commandments. Doesn’t this mean that his line was rejected from being the basis of an everlasting kingdom? This speaks in favour of Joseph’s lineage being the one through which the Messiah, Jesus, would come.
“God will never replace that son’s kingship, like He had done to Saul. The son’s kingship will be established forever”
So why did it vanish when the Greeks and Romans came?
Was Jesus the biological son of Joseph. Genetically, I believe yes. Why is this not possible for God to create a son of Joseph according to the human nature of Jesus?
“We can therefore establish that anyone who will claim kingship on Israel must be a direct descendant father-to-son, of Solomon and (obviously, and more importantly), David.”
I don’t see any evidence for the Solomon part of the conditions for being the Messiah.
Thanks for the interesting discussion.
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the prophecy ends by god telling david that his own kingdom will be established forever. does that mean that david will never die? of course not. there were many davidic kings who didn’t go in Gods ways but their children did. and so the kingdom continued. David himself is recorded that he did things God was very unhappy with, but nonetheless his kingdom was retained.
so according to you, Gods promise to david expired after solomon and reborn by jesus, that’s wierd because you still don’t have a ‘forever’ moreover even if you say that davids kingdom went altheway to the destruction of the temple, where was the kingdom in the 400 years in between the last davidic king and Jesus. in your terminology, so why did it vanish when the Babylonians came?
I think it is certain that no matter how you twist it there was a period after david where there wan’t a king. you will have to say that forever means that it might take a break but be revived and never substituted or replaced.
i think the evidence is clear. i don’t see the slightest hint that the covenant to solomon is any different than the covenant to david, the terminology is identical.
regarding Jesus biology i have no opinion for i don’t see him as divine at all.
thanks for your contribution to the subject…
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“the prophecy ends by god telling david that his own kingdom will be established forever.”
Please can you give chapter and verse for this claim.
The covenant is with the one who builds God a house. His throne and kingdom will be established for ever. Where is succession here? This is the opposite to succession.
“But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore”.
If he is succeeded by his son then the covenant is broken.
Solomon had his chance but blew it:
God’s Anger against Solomon
1 Kings 11 v 9 And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice, 10 And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods: but he kept not that which the LORD commanded. 11 Wherefore the LORD said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant. 12 Notwithstanding in thy days I will not do it for David thy father’s sake: but I will rend it out of the hand of thy son. 13 Howbeit I will not rend away all the kingdom; but will give one tribe to thy son for David my servant’s sake, and for Jerusalem’s sake which I have chosen.
Judah by itself is not the kingdom which God would have been preserved if Solomon had been obedient. The fact that Judah is preserved through Solomon’s sons is irrelevant to the covenant which God makes with the Messiah, if we call him that for argument’s sake, who builds the house for him.
I am still waiting for some evidence that Jesus is excluded by his lineage from being the Messiah.
As a Christian I would see this house as a spiritual house and kingdom not made with hands.
Hebrews 3 v Jesus Our Apostle and High Priest
1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; 2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. 3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. 4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. 5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; 6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
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Yeshua
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Jews for Jesus?? boring.
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Yeshua
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