:قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم
“آتِي بَابَ الْجَنَّةِ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ فَأَسْتَفْتِحُ فَيَقُولُ الْخَازِنُ مَنْ أَنْتَ فَأَقُولُ مُحَمَّدٌ . فَيَقُولُ بِكَ أُمِرْتُ لاَ أَفْتَحُ لأَحَدٍ قَبْلَكَ”
The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:
I will come to the gates of Paradise and ask for them to be opened. The gatekeeper will ask, “Who are you?” I will say, “Muhammad”. The gatekeeper will say “I was ordered not to open the gate for anyone else before you.
«Sahih Muslim»
Categories: Islam
Blogging Theology 
According to S. 46:8-9, Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 266 and Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 51, Number 16, Muhammad was uncertain whether Allah would save him. This being the case, is this hadith merely wishful thinking or delusion on Muhammed’s part? Where are all the other prophets before Muhammed? Somewhere else? If so, why? If you seek to argue on the basis of S48:2 that Muhammad is in paradise because his past and future sins had been forgiven (a position which is not certain on the basis of the Arabic text which refers to the possibility of sin being forgiven, not certainty), why is the sinless Jesus not in the same paradise? Besides, why is Muhammad still being commanded to ask forgiveness for his sins if Allah had already completely forgiven him? After all, if Allah has already forgiven Muhammad then there is no need to remind or command him to ask to be forgiven. If Muhammad himself had no assurance of salvation, what hope is there for his followers? Why would someone be foolish enough to rely on their eternal fate on the weight of the words of someone who is still in his grave and claimed that he had no idea (in reality he would have had a very good idea since his own conscience would already have condemned him) if was to be saved. As a role model and agent for salvation Muhammad is completely useless.
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“agent for salvation” funny
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Steve Cleary yours is an old missionary lie refuted many times over:
http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/was_prophet_muhammad_uncertain_of_his_own_salvation_
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lol ouch! In the spirit of an age-old football chant, “You’re not singing anymore, you’re not singing anymore!” or perhaps “and its all gone quiet over there and its all gone quiet over there”
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Call to monotheism? That’s about as reliable as Intellect’s English grammar!!
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Paulus,
You couldn’t come up with anything better than an unrelated Ad Hominem? Lemme guess, your next comment will be some old discredited argument from the distant past, that has already been exposed repeatedly as the anti-Islamic lie that it is.
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Just because you disagree or don’t like it, doesn’t make it a lie. Stop acting like little brats. People are allowed to understand and read Islamic sources different to you, well at least they should be able to. The history of Islam doesn’t fair so well in that regard, much like the church.
Call to monotheism is a dawah apologetics site- not the sort of place to be “refuted”
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The facts make Steve Cleary’s cut and past argument a lie. And if a dawah apologetics site gets the facts right, then a lie is a lie, is a lie. Even if you disagree or don’t like it
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With the name of Allah
//If you seek to argue on the basis of S48:2 that Muhammad is in paradise because his past and future sins had been forgiven (a position which is not certain on the basis of the Arabic text which refers to the possibility of sin being forgiven, not certainty//
It is obvious that you just copy-paste rubbish material from hate site. Im sure you dont even understand what being copy paste. Do you understand classical arabic? according to tafsir al-Jalalayn which is one of the most authoritative tafsirs for the study of the Arabic of Qur’an it is said :
The verse are interpreted (مؤول) as the concept of the infallibility or sinlessness (عصمة) of all prophets (peace be upon them) against sinning. The lām in ليغفر indicates the final effect not the cause through God favour which will bring to a straight path upon which He will establish- the religion of Islam.
So the letter lām in ليغفر do not mean denotes possibility but certainty. That what the Qur’an actually says regarding Q 48:2.
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“… what hope is there for his followers?”
”
Allah has promised to those who believe and do good deeds: For them is forgiveness and a mighty reward.”
why did forgiveness precede reward?
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صلى الله عليه وسلم
جزاك الله خيراً
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صلى الله عليه وسلم
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That why we have to follow him.
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“Call to monotheism? That’s about as reliable as Intellect’s English grammar!!”
your god has to give himself a bloody nose before he forgives you, what kind of a dumb ass god is that?
what is worse is that he was reluctant to give himself a bloody nose. he prayed like a coward , “it is not my will but your will….”
“my soul is deeply troubled…”
“please daddy, please save me from my own wrath”
even saddam hussain must be commended, the man went willingly to his death.
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So much for respecting Isa. I understand that Muslims will never appreciate sacrificial giving of life for others. It’s too kind of an idea for them to understand especially if Islam is your religious baggage. I guess only military aggression is your MO?
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“daddddddyyy please remove the cup from meeee”
“i ‘m scared…my soul is wimping it”
daddydddydydy
even saddam hussain should be respected for going to his death like a man and not crying like a coward.
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“my soul is deeply troubled even unto death”
“i need to fall to the ground and pray like the coward that i am even though i go around attacking peoples for their lack of faith”
i tell you the truth, even saddam hussain should be respected for going to his death like a man and not crying like a bitch.
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” I understand that Muslims will never appreciate sacrificial giving of life for others.”
“giving his life” lol
then he rewards himself a few hours after his weekend “sacrifice”
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that cheap weekend “sacrifice ” has a blemish in it. it was a reluctant unwilling coward .
notice he cries “why have you forsaken me”
john can’t have a reluctant “lamb” so he removes all the embarrassment he found in mark.
after all, what kind of a “sacrifice” is it when one asked his god to find a way from the “all things are possible for you….”
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//So much for respecting Isa.//
I don’t think Edward refer to prophet Isa alaihissalam but rather he was talking about pseudo-Isa, greek character you call “Jeesess”
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Yep, talking about Isa/ Jesus. There was only one historical Isa/ Jesus, was there not?
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Yes, there was only one historical Isa peace be upon him, whom muslims have great reverences with, the one who never consider himself God.
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Paulus,
Ignorant, antagonistic, and provocative remarks proving nothing as usual, nothing new from you..
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And yet your happy for Muslims to denigrate the prophet Isa? Irony much?
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We Highly revere, love and Honor Prophet Isa, more than you, since we prefer the true historical Jesus and his true message of Absolute Monotheism..
It is your Mythological paganistic Greco Roman Man God Jezus and the innovated Trinitarian message that we reject.
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Paulus
November 22, 2016 • 7:32 am
Yep, talking about Isa/ Jesus. There was only one historical Isa/ Jesus, was there not?
I say;
Yep, you are right there is only one Isa/Jesus the man. Isa/Jesus is a man not God. The Bible said “Jesus, a man approved by God……..”
I, Edward and many Muslims will not disrespect the only Isa who is a man but we disrespect the Isa who is a God Man and therefore impossibility like a married bachelor.
I do not respect married bachelor because it is non existent and will never ever respect any God Man because it is a hybrid creature like the avatar which are non existent but in a Hollywood film as Dr. Laing Graig has said Jesus is like a Hollywood avatar or the Kerberos from Greek mythology, the ferocious three-headed guard dog of Hades.
You are not a Doctor of philosophy and religion like Dr. Laing Graig. Ask him how does he expect me to respect this non existent Isa/Jesus of the Bible?
Thanks.
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Paulus
November 21, 2016 • 6:42 pm
Call to monotheism? That’s about as reliable as Intellect’s English grammar!!
I say
With all my bad grammar, I know God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are counted as 3 Gods.
You are right. I have been making mistakes and I know that. Most people have been making mistakes here. You make mistakes but do not realize. If you do not realize you have been making mistakes, then it is serious and it is like a mad man who does not know he is mad. Like a Trinitarian who does not know there is nothing like God Man or God Man is an impossibility.
I will point your mistake to you when I notice one. You have been making a lot of mistakes.
Thanks.
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Hi Intellect
Where is the prophet Muhammad right now?
Or where is Jesus right now?
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Hi Edward, Intellect and Eric
Where is the Injeel?
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defendchrist
Where is the gospel of the Shephered Hermas? Why is it not in your Bible? Epistle of Banabas not in your Bible, Why?
Where is Elisa? Elijah?
Thanks.
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Hi Intellect
The reason why i asked was because according to you guys its the real gospel which you say has the true message.
So tell us what Jesus taught from the koran or what his disciples taught from the koran in regards to the injeel.
Tell us from the koran what happened to the injeel please.
I have a whole bookcase of works outside of what is the bible, so you making your little comments are not going to distract me.
So where is the injeel?
What message did it contain?
If it is lost can someone explain and where.
How was Jesus GIVEN this book?
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Defend,
The four Gospels and Christian scriptures are clearly not the injeel. They make numerous unhistorical claims about Jesus which cannot possibly be true. The injeel is a revelation given by God to Jesus Quran 5:46, it is this that is the injeel and not the fabricated and clearly uninspired books written by your unknown pseudepigraphal authors who wrote forgeries and attributed them back to the names of Patriarchs who had long since passed and could not defend their good names from such lies.
The Injeel most surely contained the core teaching that is also in Qur’an and Torah that is there is only One God, absolute and unique in his oneness, we should worship only that God, live good lives doing good deeds, repent when we make mistakes, and find salvation through the forgiveness of that One true God. The Qur’an acknowledges that parts of this core message are found in existing scripture but that it is not coterminous with Qur’an.
Regretfully, the fullness of the Injeel was lost, because of short sighted Christians like yourself, who rather than focusing on that core message and the oneness of God, focused instead on worshipping a mortal man, and were then forced to innovate false doctrines like Trinity, blood sacrifice, atonement by the cross, resurrection etc. in order to justify their own misinterpretations and misunderstandings which they had become entrenched in even up until this day. While they were focused on the religion which they had created about Jesus, they failed to develop a methodology to preserve and maintain the original revelation of Injeel which Jesus had received from God. Now all that remains are questionable stories about Jesus teachings, which may or may not be true.
The Religion OF Jesus became the Religion ABOUT Jesus.
So in asking your questions about where is the lost injeel, Christians have no one to blame but themselves for losing it. Don’t point fingers and blame Muslims for by the Grace, blessing and Promise of Allah – we PRESERVED the text which we received.
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Hi Ibn Issam
Has any Muslim ever seen or recorded what was in the Injeel? Where is the evidence for even believing in such a book
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Hi Ibn Issam
We havent lost anything you guys are the ones claiming it is lost and neither can you quote anything from it.
The gospels are historical narratives which contain what Jesus taught.
Muslims are the ones coming along making all the accusations.
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Defend,
Paul Williams recently posted this on Twitter regarding the Injeel:
Montgomery watt (professor in Arabic and Islamic studies at the Univ. of Edinburgh and one of the foremost interpreters of Islam in the west) is quoted saying: “While it is stated that Jesus received from God a scripture called the Gospel (or Evangel –Injil) there is nothing to suggest that this was anymore like our actual gospels in the New Testament than the Taurat received by Moses was like the actual Pentateuch. Indeed, Muslims usually deny that our actual Gospels are the book received by Jesus, since that consisted entirely of revelations from God and not of historical statements about Jesus.” [William Montgomery Watt, Muslim-Christian Encounters. Perceptions and Misperceptions. Routledge ,1991 p. 24
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“The gospels are historical narratives which contain what Jesus taught.”
if god or “angel of the lord” did not have power over those who spread lies , what makes you think the disciples were in every place to stamp out christian LIES about jesus?
read matthew man. the religious jews pay off guards to spread lies which became widely known
where is the power and control to filter our lies and truth? your god couldn’t stop lies what makes you think LIARS like peter would ?
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Defend,
No one has seen or recorded what was in the Injil thanks to you Christians losing it. See my explanation above.
You comment that, “We haven’t lost anything you guys are the ones claiming it is lost and neither can you quote anything from it.” – I say: If you Christians haven’t lost anything, then show me where is the Gospel of Jesus? You have Gospels of Matthew Mark, luke and John……where is the Gospel OF Jesus? Can you quote me something from it? I am not referring to the fabricated forgeries ABOUT Jesus. Clearly, as any fool can see, the followers of Christ have regretfully and carelessly lost the most important piece of evidence that anyone could have lost……..the divinely inspired revelation of God to Jesus – The INJIL.
You Said, “The gospels are historical narratives which contain what Jesus taught.” LOL! What a joke. No, your own scholars have shown that they are forgeries and fabrications.
Repeating yourself doesn’t prove your point, so don’t bother.
P.S – For someone who calls himself “Defendchrist” you are very offensive but that doesn’t surprise me. In reply to your comment that, “Muslims are the ones coming along making all the accusations” This argument didn’t start yesterday when you walked in the door. Muslims could actually care less about your Gospels, and we are really only responding to the initial offensive anti-Islamic accusations that Christians have made toward our faith tradition and beliefs.
So consider our counter-arguments as “blowback.” You and yours brought it on yourself.
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Hi Ibn Issam
Sura 19:30
PICKTHALL
He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet,
When was Jesus given the scripture in the cradle as a baby? Please explain because you just expect people to believe what you say as truth.
So he is speaking as a baby from the cradle fill me in and help me understand where the Injeel is that Jesus was given.
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Wallahi, It so very sad to think about how short sighted Christians have carelessly lost the divinely inspired revelation of God to Jesus – The INJIL. If Christians would have preserved the Injil, I am sure that it would have confirmed and agreed with the basic truths that are contained in Judaism and Islam and we would have had a lot more to agree upon than disagree.
I am saddened even more in that Christians don’t even care to acknowledge what was lost, nor do they seem to even understand the implications of the loss. Unbelievably, they shamefully satisfy themselves with fabricated, forgeries that are not even divinely inspired, and end up with doctrinal beliefs that run totally against the true monotheistic spirit of the religion of Abraham.
What a great and terrible loss!!
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Defend,
Jesus was not given an actual parchment scripture in the cradle. Instead, Allah taught him that which was in the Torah and the Injil as a child. So it was in his mind and Knowledge.
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Hi Intellect
You tell me where Elijah is you have the true message about the prophets so tell us.
Muhammad is supposed to be the first to enter paradise??
Who told him that?
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defendchrist
I hope you are familiar with the day of judgement where everyone will be judged? Heaven will be closed at the judgement day and no one is inside. Our literature shows after the judgement the gate will be opened. That is when by the grace of God we are going to be there forever and ever, Ameen. So someone will enter first after the gate is opened.
Some of the injeel(Good news/He revealed) are in your current Bible and some of the injeel are not in your Bible like the gospel of the Shephered Hermas, Epistle of Banabas etc. are not in your current Bible.
Thanks.
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Hi Intellect
Who is going to be alive on the earth when Judgement comes or do you believe everyone has to die?
We hear that Jesus is coming back and has to die why?
The bible says because of sin death was released into the world which is the reason why people die.
So my question is if Jesus did no sin why does he have to die?
Just help to understand where you are coming from maybe the koran can tell us why we die.
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“The bible says because of sin death was released into the world which is the reason why people die.”
but the Quran says
Sahih International: [He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed – and He is the Exalted in Might, the Forgiving –
death is under Gods control, His creation and is an EXIT from this world and is not seen as a SIN in islam .
all the people who claimed to be gods DIED
the kings died
the rich died
Sahih International: And do not invoke with Allah another deity. There is no deity except Him. Everything will be destroyed except His Face. His is the judgement, and to Him you will be returned.
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Hi Edward.
So Allah is bringing death to children to test the parents is he?
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Sahih International: Blessed is He in whose hand is dominion, and He is over all things competent –
Sahih International: [He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed – and He is the Exalted in Might, the Forgiving –
* control over ALL things. DEATH and LIFE.
* created death and life.
Adam was something DEAD and then he became something alive.
*we were ALL DEAD once
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Hi Edward
Stopping entering arenas you can’t handle!
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you are one arrogant piece of slime man.
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“So Allah is bringing death to children to test the parents is he?”
first explain the perspective you are coming from
1. are the children in your view sinless?
i think they are and they committed no sin.
2. is death an independent power which control the life of people and is a willing agent beside god?
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Answer the question…is he testing the parents? I’m not talking about the chuldren
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“Answer the question…is he testing the parents? I’m not talking about the chuldren”
a woman gives birth and loses her child immediately upon birth . if she is religious will she be tested ?
of course. but the verse is saying that death is ORIGINAL state of you , me and everysingle creature on this planet. we were ALL dead once. then we were given life and then we will die again and they we will be informed about what we used to do.
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“So Allah is bringing death to children to test the parents is he?”
there is cancer and number of other diseases. children right this minute are dying of hunger.
your pathetic god makes all of them “born in sin”
he can’t forgive even a child who grows up in ghettos and slums
his forgiveness is dependant on giving himself a bloody nose, he has no “feeling” for the suffering of people. he only cares about his selfish self serving “sacrifice” which cooled him off.
he is ugly biased animal who
made sure he wasn’t “born in sin”
he made adam and couldn’t prevent satan from taking over adams mind, WHAT CHANCE DO you have with this animal you worship??
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How can that Hadith be true, when the Qur’an says that Allah took Jesus to Himself and saved him from the cross ( “they did not crucify him nor kill him; for sure یقینا they did not kill him” Surah 4:157)
Surah 4:158
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.
That was some 600 years before Muhammad, so how could Muhammed be the first one to enter paradise?
Where was Jesus in 632 AD, if Muhammad made first right after he died?
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Ken Temple
I hope you are familiar with the day of judgement where everyone will be judged? Heaven will be closed at the judgement day and no one is inside. Our literature shows after the judgement the gate will be opened. That is when by the grace of God we are going to be there forever and ever, Ameen. So someone will enter first after the gate is opened.
Some of the injeel(Good news/He revealed) are in your current Bible and some of the injeel are not in your Bible like the gospel of the Shephered Hermas, Epistle of Banabas etc. are not in your current Bible.
Thanks.
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Where does the koran say heaven is shut
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defendchrist
Are those going to hell be judged in heaven? Are those going to heaven be judged in hell? No. Both places are closed on judgement time and will be opened after judgement.
You said;
We hear that Jesus is coming back and has to die why?
The bible says because of sin death was released into the world which is the reason why people die.
So my question is if Jesus did no sin why does he have to die?
Just help to understand where you are coming from maybe the koran can tell us why we die.
I say;
You do not believe in the Quran and I do not believe in the Bible. I do not believe death is released into the world because sin. I do not believe that please.
I believed God created us on this earth to obey His command and to test us for his obedience because we unlike other creatures like angels or say cow have freewill, choice and more knowledge and intellect and can decide to obey or disobey God.
When Adam was created, God gave him the knowledge that the angels do not know. A cow cannot create an aircraft or Samsung galaxy s7 and I do not think an angel can create a smartphone. Human beings can do all these and so have responsible to use our intellect to follow the commands of our God.
We are responsible for our wish and desires if we insists God died when the Bible clearly states God does not die. So we follow our wish and responsible for that in the day of judgement.
Jesus did not sin? Babies do not sin either.
I think Jesus sinned by showing his hatred and insulted poor woman as dog. Ken Temple will say it is a sinful nature and sinfulness and therefore a sin. Ken Temple will say that is a sinful heart to show hatred towards one and that was what Jesus did, so Jesus sinned.
Jesus ransacked people tables and damaged their property amount to hatred, disorderly conduct, property damage and hate crime.
It is a pagan religions like the Greeko-Roman traditions that believed a sinless God, person or man when sacrificed can save people and that is why they use to sacrifice babies and they think babies are pure..
Thanks.
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“Intellect” –
so where is Jesus’ soul now, since Surah 4:158 says “Allah took him to himself”. Doesn’t that mean that Jesus went to paradise with Allah?
What you are saying is that no one is in paradise yet – even Muhammad. So all their souls are still “asleep” in the graves?
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hello ken idiot temple
“so where is Jesus’ soul now, since Surah 4:158 says “Allah took him to himself”. Doesn’t that mean that Jesus went to paradise with Allah?”
you could be returned through a number of methods
i quote:
83. So glorified be He and exalted above all that they associate with Him, and in Whose Hands is the dominion of all things: and to Him you shall be returned.
don’t know eriks,ibn isam and others understanding of these verses so i won’t say much, but
if one is “raised” or “returned” to God, then how can one derive from these terms that one is residing in heaven right now?
where is the idea derived from the terms used?
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“With God” – this to me assumes the same thing as “in heaven”, since heaven is God’s abode.
As the famous prayer that Paul Williams likes to use all the time in Matthew 6:9-10:
“Our Father, who is in heaven, may your name be treated as holy; may Your kingdom come, may Your will be done. . . . ”
etc.
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“With God” – this to me assumes the same thing as “in heaven”, since heaven is God’s abode.”
who told u that?
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Why did you write “idiot” ?
You sinned against your own holy book, in Surah 29:46
You are not a very credible or honorable Muslim, since I noticed you do that a lot; so I usually ignore you, because you don’t have a holy or pious behavior, and that discredits you from being a sincere and pious religious person. You are discredited and not many Christians will pay attention to your words, because sinful behavior discredits your religion.
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do you know about righteous anger?
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Jesus the perfect man, yes.
you, no . . . sorry, you are discredited.
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“perfect man”
jesus according to the torah was born of a woman and a sinner. he was imperfect.
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“edward” –
Nope; He was born of the virgin Mary (Luke 1:34-35; Matthew 1:18-25; sinless – 2 Cor. 5:21; Hebrews 4:15; John 8:46), which even your Qur’an agrees. He did not inherit a sinful nature.
You just spoke against Surah 19:19 – now you committed two sins against two Ayats in Qur’an.
Shame on you!
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Ken Temple
What I said is that. On the day of judgement no one including any soul or body or combination remained in heaven. It will be closed until after judgement and then opened for us to dwell for ever and ever, Ameen. After opening the gate when judgement is done, some one will enter first.
With regards to souls every one’s soul is with God but not Jesus and Mohammed alone. Everyone’s soul is with God. So what is your problem?
Thanks.
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Jesus is already with God and in heaven, according to Surah 4:158, so Jesus went there before Muhammad. Therefore that Hadith contradicts the Qur’an at Surah 4:158. Jesus got there about 600 years before Muhammad.
You say “everyone’s soul is with God” – everyone is in heaven ?
How does that make sense in light of the Hadith that is quoted above?
Everyone has to go out and come back again on the day of judgment?
It makes no sense.
You are not explaining things very clearly. Try harder.
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Intellect wrote:
“With regards to souls every one’s soul is with God but not Jesus and Mohammed alone. Everyone’s soul is with God.”
Everyone? Even unbelievers?
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“On the day of judgement no one including any soul or body or combination remained in heaven. It will be closed until after judgement and then opened for us to dwell for ever and ever, Ameen. “
Sounds like Jesus and Muhammad and others (the believers ?) are in heaven with Allah, but have to come out again to be judged on judged on judgement day ?
In Christianity, one goes strait to heaven or hell at the time of death, Hebrews 9:27
“It is appointed once for all mankind to die, and then comes the judgment.”
At the judgment, the bodies of the dead are resurrected and united with their souls and the dead are judged to be thrown into the lake of fire forever. Revelation 20:10-15
“death and hades (Sheol, grave, holding place of torment until the lake of fire after judgement day) are thrown into the lake of fire.”
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Hi Intellect
You said this…
Jesus did not sin? Babies do not sin either.
I think Jesus sinned by showing his hatred and insulted poor woman as dog. Ken Temple will say it is a sinful nature and sinfulness and therefore a sin. Ken Temple will say that is a sinful heart to show hatred towards one and that was what Jesus did, so Jesus sinned.
Jesus ransacked people tables and damaged their property amount to hatred, disorderly conduct, property damage and hate crime.
It is a pagan religions like the Greeko-Roman traditions that believed a sinless God, person or man when sacrificed can save people and that is why they use to sacrifice babies and they think babies are pure..
You are just like all the other Muslims who try to slander Jesus and fail terribly!
1. You don’t even understand the context of the Matthew 15.
A. Where you read that Jesus called the woman a dog…please quote.
B. Where was the hatred and racism in the text?
C. Jesus healed Roman servant…The Canaanite woman’s daughter…The Samaritan leper yes or no? None of these are Jews…hello
2. Jesus ransacked people’s tables and property.
A. These people were ripping off the Gentiles who came to worship it was in the court of Gentiles, the very same people you say Jesus was racist against.
B. It was to be a place of prayer not for the exchanging of currency for the offering, or selling birds and animals for the offerings
There are not supposed to be bankers ( money changers) in the court of Gentiles.
Pagan religions?? What are you talking about half the things Muslims do in their religion is pagan in origin…throwing stones at pillars…running between two hills…walking around the Kaabah… Kissing the black stone which even Muhammad did…hello
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“B. It was to be a place of prayer not for….”
BASED on what?
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Hi Edward
My point is based on…
Luk 19:45 And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought;
Luk 19:46 Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.
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the idea of eating a god
“Is anybody so mad as to believe that the food he eats is actually a god?” – Cicero(106 BCE-43BCE), The Nature of the Gods, 3.201.
that’s really ancient. lol
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where does the torah forbid trade in places of worship?
“Luk 19:46 Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.”
who made it “den of thieves” and why was a violent action required on a people who did not do violent action on jesus?
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Hi Edward
Isa 56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
Check the last sentence this is God speaking no one mentioned anything about the Torah except you, this is what the bible tells us.
Jesus quotes Jeremiah for good measure so that those who know the scriptures will understand.
Jer 7:7 Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever.
Jer 7:8 Behold, ye trust in lying words, that cannot profit.
Jer 7:9 Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not;
Jer 7:10 And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, We are delivered to do all these abominations?
Jer 7:11 Is this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, even I have seen it, saith the LORD.
This is God speaking here…Jesus mentions these words ok.
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“Jer 7:9 Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not;
Jer 7:10 And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, We are delivered to do ALL THESE abominations?”
where does this forbid trade in the temple?
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the romans were PLUNDERING and STEALING
where is evidence that the traders were STEALING ?
why was violent action required on a people who did not do VIOLENCE on jesus?
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Defend,
You remarked, “Pagan religions?? What are you talking about half the things Muslims do in their religion is pagan in origin…throwing stones at pillars…running between two hills…walking around the Kaabah… Kissing the black stone”
The traditional rituals of Hajj were established by Abraham himself and his son Ishmael, as a way to honor and worship God. It is no secret that after a long period their Ishmaelite descendants backslided into Idolatry, and later with advent of Prophet Muhammad a direct descendant of Ishmael, the rituals of Hajj were re purified and House of Kaaba re consecrated for worship of the One true almighty God Allah.
The history of the Ishmaelites in this case is similar to their cousins the Israelite Jews who also fell into idolatry at various times in their history, and their rituals were turned to paganism. But like the Ishmaelites, they too later came to their senses and re purified their rituals. http://www.bible-archaeology.info/idols.htm
The important thing to remember here is that Islam and Judaism have been purified of paganism and Idolatry, while Christianity has not. I think the reason that you and those like you keep throwing this accusation out is simply to divert attention away from the following things about Christianity:
Sol invictus, sun worship, Idolatry, Mary worship, Christmas (Winter Solstice, Saturnalia), Candlemas (Imbolc, traditional quarter day) Easter (close to spring equinox), St. John’s Day (summer solstice). St. Michael and All Saints (fall Equinox). HALLOWEEN (a.k.a. lailat ash-Shaytan). 25th December is the birthday of the god Mithras. Mass, one of the key traditions in Roman Catholicism, has components of sun worship rather than Christ-worship. Trinitarian Godhead (originating from the Cult of Osirus). worship of Greco -Roman Man God ( originating from Greek Roman mythological pagan traditions). Not to mention the very paganistc practice of atonement by Blood Sacrifice.
The list keeps going. The point is that accusing Judaism or Islam of paganism will get you nowhere since it only backfires and highlights the fact that –
Trinitarian Greco Roman Man God worshipping Christianity is the biggest paganistic cult in disguise the world has ever known!!!
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Intellect,
Try reading and understanding what I have written on Jesus’ encounter with the Canaanite woman.
Jesus did NOT sin.
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2014/10/03/was-jesus-cruel-to-the-canaanite-woman-mark-724-30-matthew-1521-28/
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“1. You don’t even understand the context of the Matthew 15.”
arrogant.
“A. Where you read that Jesus called the woman a dog…please quote.”
lol, you continue in your delusion after being shown by a number of posts here
https://defendchrist.wordpress.com/2012/12/15/13/#comments
“B. Where was the hatred and racism in the text?”
lol , he was just showing his disciples how to “respect” a dog.
and how to keep “clean mouth”
“C. Jesus healed Roman servant…The Canaanite woman’s daughter…The Samaritan leper yes or no? None of these are Jews…hello”
so the woman has to beg like a dog for WASTE /crumbs which fall to the floor, while upon centurions request he acts promptly ? lol
healing of roman centurion. only performs the miracle because his fellow jews persuaded him. “for he loves our nation, and he is the one who built us our synagouge.
“A. These people were ripping off the Gentiles who came to worship it was in the court of Gentiles, the very same people you say Jesus was racist against.”
B. It was to be a place of prayer not for the exchanging of currency for the offering, or selling birds and animals for the offerings
There are not supposed to be bankers ( money changers) in the court of Gentiles.”
all the above are assumptions and i have heard different reasons for why they were changing money and selling animals. many DIFFERENT REASONS. DIFFERENT accounts. the people who were changing were being WATCHED by others . the changers were SLAVE labourers
1. jesus uses VIOLENCE against people who are otherwise going about their business in a peaceful manner. why wasn’t there a peaceful rebuke?
2. they are not attacking jesus, nor are they threatening to attack jesus physically.
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Hi Edward
The temple is Jesus temple ok. He has every right to make sure what is going on in there is correct.
Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Jesus came to his temple you have a problem clearing out the temple?
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”
The temple is Jesus temple ok. He has every right to make sure what is going on in there is correct.
Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Jesus came to his temple you have a problem clearing out the temple?”
it is not jesus’ temple. . jesus used violent action on a people who did not bully or damage him. the people were slave labourers , maybe working for their boss who forced them to work. jesus prefer to drive out traders who needed to support their life with the little they had. notice we don’t see in the text how jesus SUPPORTED the traders after he drove them out?
so if jesus uses violence it is okay, but if anyone else uses violence then it is not okay?
“he has every right…”
while the romans are wrecking up the rest of jerusalem?
macho man among slave labourers, but chiken in front of military?
at least bar kochba put his money where his mouth is and took on the oppressors.
what happen to conveying peace to a traders who “turned their cheek”
here is their pacifist response:
“What sign have you to show us for doing this?”
yeah what “sign” was there for destroying peoples income?
jesus really love dying for roman sins in jerusalem, right?
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“Pagan religions?? What are you talking about half the things Muslims do in their religion is pagan in origin…throwing stones at pillars…running between two hills…walking around the Kaabah… Kissing the black stone which even Muhammad did…hello”
all the things you do have a human being in the middle. think about that. you need to imagine a physical and created god and what actions he did in the flesh before you are worthy of your god.
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Hi Edward
You haven’t addressed what I posted to you, are things pagan in origin or not and why are Muslims doing them today?
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so jesus goes into temple and shows his violence off to a traders who were probably put their by someone else.
jesus didn’t know that maybe after he did his violence, the people would probably go back in the temple and start to trade again?
massive plundering by the romans of the jewish people
stealing their resources
maybe raping their women in front of jesus
wide spread death of children
oppression
etc etc
jesus is only interested in “cleaning” his gods temple?
at least bar kochba put his money where his mouth was
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i think you christians are the biggest hypocrites on this planet
it is the jewish bible which allows the practices of the traders.
and the currency exchangers.
“Money changers performed a key service when they converted the varieties of local coinage into the required tribute of silver shekels or half-shekels of Tyre (Tosefta Ketubbot 13:20, Exod 30:11-16). Many writers have suggested that the Tyre currency was preferred because it did not defy the Decalogue by depicting the graven image of a foreign king, and that is true. But the Tyre coins portray a pagan god of Tyre, Melqarth-Herakles—which was certainly even more offensive!”
even after jesus’ blitzkrieg , they would have to go back doing the same thing. so why wasn’t a peaceful rebuke better than a violent action?
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Hi Edward
Maybe you should read all of David Hendin’s article before you put forward your response.
He even admits that there might have been competition and problems as the money changers offered better prices and charged interest
Which is one of the reasons Jesis did what he did to the people sitting behind those tables.
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“He even admits that there might have been competition and problems as the money changers offered better prices and charged interest
Which is one of the reasons Jesis did what he did to the people sitting behind those tables.”
who were those people? maybe poor people trying to make a living. and they would have gone back making a living through trade because their life depended on it.
you have your god like a THUG who drives out ANIMALS and traders
even if they did x, what justification was there for Y?
you smash up the temple like a hooligan and whip out the people and animals
was there no other way? did they become like amalekite children who were far from redemption?
jerusalem was getting PLUNDERED and looted by the romans.
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“Maybe you should read all of David Hendin’s article before you put forward your response.”
NO WHERE DID THIS GUY JUSTIFY jesus’ TERRORIST ACTIVITIES IN THE TEMPLE.
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Hi Edward
That is the weirdiest definition of terrorism i have read in my life you people are desperate to bring Jesus and you say that Jesus is a prophet in your religion.
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“weirdiest definition of terrorism ”
coming from a christian who believes
a fish is fully fish
and fully human @ the same time
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Hey edward
You cant even stay on topic you always wander off talking about something different.
Youre worse than intellect
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ooooh bitch
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Hi Paul
Sorry
Edward needs to tone down on how he speaks about Jesus
Too much mocking and nothing healthy being said quite boring
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Defend,
O’ the Irony!
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“That is the weirdiest definition of terrorism i have read in my life you people are desperate to bring Jesus and you say that Jesus is a prophet in your religion.”
prof avalos :
“jesus uses violence against people who are otherwise going about their business in a peaceful manner. They are not attacking jesus, nor are they threatening to attack jesus physically. Rather, jesus does not like them engaging in the particular business of selling animals and money changing, and so he decides to expel them from the temple. if any dissenting catholic entered the vatican today, and started to drive out worshippers with a whip and vandalize the sanctuary , such a person might be LABELED AS A TERRORIST OR A VANDAL with no right to engage in such actions.”
you have arrogance mate. that is the disease in your heart.
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Sorry Ibn Issam God has made it his responsibility to preserve his word so you’re wrong there.
No one can change of destroy God’s word.
So again it is Muslims that say the Injeel is lost we don’t believe Jesus was given a book,so Allah give this baby in the cradle is that right?
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“edward” –
Nope; He was born of the virgin Mary (Luke 1:34-35; Matthew 1:18-25; sinless – 2 Cor. 5:21; Hebrews 4:15; John 8:46), which even your Qur’an agrees. He did not inherit a sinful nature.
You just spoke against Surah 19:19 – now you committed two sins against two Ayats in Qur’an.
Shame on you!
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your god was unable to prevent sinless adam from doing a sin. yet adam was born before “original sin”
jesus was baptised. if he thought he was sinless, then he SINNED because he had thought of arrogance and went against the jewish bible
Job 25:4- How then can man be in the right before God? How can he who is born of woman be pure?
jesus born of a woman who was “born in sin”
Galatians 4:4- But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law.
jesus was “born in sin”
mary , according to job, gave jesus the disease of sinful nature.
“why do you CALL me GOOd….”
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