I would say that, while the word Haqq carries the meanings as defined above, it not only refers to the truth but to the ULTIMATE TRUTH, as in the one and only unalterable truth both seen and unseen, known and unknown. One could literally write a book on the meaning of the word Haqq, and indeed some have.
the gospel of John was established and testified to by many ancient manuscripts, the earliest going back to 120 AD, and for 5 more centuries, became the most beloved gospel of the 4 among the “people of the gospel”. Even the earliest biographer of Muhammad’s life, Ibn Ishaq, wrote that John’s gospel was true.
The fact that Muslim’s try to say that John 14:26 and 16:13 is about Muhammad is funny; as there are no textual variants to give any evidence of any change from “periklutos” περικλυτος to paraklaetos παρακλητος . And a “Holy Spirit” cannot be a human. But you are forced to try and find Muhammad somewhere, because of the verse, Surah 7:157 and 61:6.
Yes, valid argument, since the argument was “why is it (John 14:6) not in older gospels?” (Mark and Matthew, and Luke) They are all from first century, between 45 AD – 80 or 90 AD. Mark, Matthew and Luke pre-70 AD.
what does it mean “earlier” ? if “earlier” is your way of finding the truth, then i have a suggestion for you. look up the greek word “the truth” and then search all the predecessors of jesus who called themselves “the truth”
bart writes :
Notice what is said of Demetrius. He is one of the “greatest gods,” the son of God” (specifically of the gods Poseidon and Aphrodite), one who is “near” his own people – not remote, off on Mount Olympus, the one who “brings peace,” who can be called “Lord.”
These ascriptions to Demetrius should sound familiar to anyone who knows about early Christianity, where Jesus too was known as the incarnation of a divine being, the Son of God, the bringer of peace, the Lord, and God in the flesh. My ultimate point: Jesus was not the first to be called such things, or thought to be a kind of incarnation of the divine. He had predecessors.
17وفيما هو خارج الى الطريق ركض واحد وجثا له وسأله ايها المعلّم الصالح ماذا اعمل لارث الحياة الابدية. 18فقال له يسوع لماذا تدعوني صالحا. ليس احد صالحا الا واحد وهو الله
actually, my 2 articles made waves and crashed Muslim’s boat of bad argumentation on Mark 10:17-18. Your boat was demolished and you had to swim for shore.
As Jesus started on His way, a man ran up and knelt before Him. “Good Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call Me good? Jesus replied, “No one is good except God alone. (Mark 18:17-18)
Then a certain ruler asked Him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call Me good? Jesus replied. “No one is good except God alone. (Luke 18:18-19)
Just then, a man came up to Jesus and inquired, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to obtain eternal life?” “Why do you ask Me about what is good?” Jesus replied, “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” (Matthew 19: 16-17)
yeah man, your boat has sunk and you been “sharked”
jesus loved the guy and the guy stop calling him “good”
disgusting twisting of plain words. i am sure no aramaic speaking jew would have deceived rich man like you pagans deceive each other. i am begining to think you believe that jesus was probably a canaanite diety.
“if you recognize Me as good; then you have to realize that I am God also; since only God is good.”
you believe 3 gods = 1
you believe god needs blood
you believe 27 books were in jesus’ mind
you believe that when the rich man stop calling jesus “good” this meant he recognised jesus was not “god”
you believe jesus was a bad communicator
you believe 4 different gospels are saying the same thing
Your god thought Mary was part of the Trinity; that the Trinity was “Father, Son, and Mother” – Surah 5:116; 5:72-75
God doesn’t “need” blood; but His holiness and wrath demand justice against sin. Your god makes light of sin.
Your god denies real history. (Surah 4:157)
Your god makes light of justice. Maybe that is why there are so many honor killings and anger and violence in the greater Muslim world – there is no satisfaction of justice in Islamic culture. No one has assurance of peace or salvation; and that lack drives some to do suicide bombings and terrorism.
The cross was where justice was satisfied, therefore, forgiveness and peace is possible.
27 books of NT – Yes, Jesus said “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. And when the Spirit of truth comes, He will lead you into all the truth . . . ” John 16:12-13
4 gospels are from 4 corners/angels/perspectives looking at one true historical event – life of Isa Al Masih, like 4 witnesses of a car accident, one witness on each corner.
True peace (John 14:27)and true love (Romans 5:8) and truth (John 14:6) results in real hope. (Romans 5:5; 1 Peter 1:3-5)
I am not alone; all Christian history testifies to this truth. early church, Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, and Protestantism – all agreed on the Trinity.
Ken you are reading something into the text that is not there. There is nothing in Mark 18:17-18; Luke 18:18-19; Matthew 19: 16-17 to indicate that Jesus is saying he is God.
Interestingly, if Atonement by the Cross is necessary for salvation, then why didn’t Jesus (as) say THAT
instead of THIS:
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
Christians have broken the first commandment by taking Jesus as a Greco Roman man God while denying the One True God his right of exclusive worship. Through Paul’s licentious Gospel of Freedom from the Law, the Christians have thrown out the rest of the commandments and are a lawless community. Meanwhile, Muslims worship the One True God in purity without associates, and also keep the commandments of the law.
Therefore, according to Prophet Jesus (as), in regard to eternal life and obedience to the commandments:
1- Christians will NOT have eternal life and salvation.
2- Muslims will receive eternal life and salvation.
You have to keep the reading after Jesus said, “keep the commandments” – the point is that no one could, and Jesus confessed this about sinful humans – “with man, this is impossible”, but not with God, – God is able to save people, but they have to realize they cannot save themselves by their own efforts or obedience and realize they are lost sinners without hope and that they need to turn to Christ to save them.
17 As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. 19 You know the commandments, ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’” 20 And he said to Him, “Teacher, I have kept all these things from my youth up.” 21 Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, “One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 22 But at these words he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property.
23 And Jesus, looking around, said to His disciples, “How hard it will be for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God!” 24 The disciples were amazed at His words. But Jesus answered again and said to them, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 26 They were even more astonished and said to Him, “ Then who can be saved?” 27 Looking at them, Jesus said, “With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.”
Jesus, in Mark 10:27, teaches that men/man-kind/people (ανθρωποις – plural – men, people. Anthropois = where we get “Anthropology” from – “the study of mankind” ) cannot save themselves by good works or by their efforts or giving to the poor. Jesus says it is “impossible” (αδυνατον). This is consistent with the writings of the apostle Paul (Galatians 2:16; 2:21; the whole book and argument of Galatians; Romans 3:28; 4:1-16; 5:1-11; Philippians 3:9; Ephesians 2:8-9), and the apostle John (John 1:12; 3:15-16; 5:24; 6:29; 8:24; 11:25; 20:30-31) “with men it is impossible” – no one can saved themselves by their own efforts or good works, “but not with God, for all things are possible with God.” The whole NT message is that God saves people by His grace alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), through faith alone (Romans 4:1-16), in Christ alone. (John 3:18; 3:36; 14:6, Acts 4:12; Romans 10:13-15).
Keep reading all the way – the text leads to Mark 10:45 – “the Son of Man came . . . to serve and to give His life a ransom for many” – points to the cross and atonement.
The details of Mark chapters 14, 15, and 16:1-8 all point to the atonement on the cross, and the resurrection/ empty tomb proved it.
“I am not alone; all Christian history testifies to this truth. early church, Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, and Protestantism – all agreed on the Trinity.”
Tempel that’s no reason. Give me a reason why is one divine nature in 3 persons is not 3 gods?
I see you cannot live up to the most important commandment according to the Biblical Jesus.
Ken,
We should keep Commandments and give away our possessions. I see that there is nothing about Jesus saying he came to die upon cross and be resurrected in order to give us salvation. Question: Have you given away everything you have in your possession, I think you still have a computer at least in your possession right? Give your computer away that you may achieve salvation!!
In regard to 27 – Jesus said, “With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.” That is the point of the post which Paul Williams made here https://bloggingtheology.net/2016/11/21/25170/
Where he wrote the following:
The Muslim must recognize and be aware that it is ultimately only by Allah’s mercy that one will enter paradise:
The Prophet (peace be upon him) said,
“Do good deeds properly, sincerely and moderately, and receive good news because one’s good deeds will NOT make him enter Paradise.” They asked, “Even you, O Allah’s Apostle?” He said, “Even I, unless and until Allah bestows His pardon and Mercy on me.”
So here we see that it’s not by one’s good deeds that one will enter paradise but by Allah’s Mercy. However, Allah has commanded us to do good deeds and we would not be recipient of His mercy unless we obey His commands.
the command to sell his possessions was only for that one person, in context; and Jesus was testing him. If the man had agreed and submitted, Jesus would probably have said something like, “ok, now you need to keep some in order to live on and take care of your family”, etc. Jesus nor the apostles said that all us have to literally sell everything. But Jesus is saying that you must be willing for God to own all your stuff and you use your possessions for His glory; fight against greed and materialism, work hard, save your money, manage your money, pay your bills, don’t go into debt, etc. give some to the poor and the church, etc.
At least by the Hadith you are making a rational argument. Nevertheless, it seems that Hadith is over the Qur’an, which says over and over, “whoever believes in Allah and does good works” , allah will accept (basically). But Islamic theology teaches you to add, “Enshall’Allah” – if God wills.
Others were arguing against Hadith, now you are putting Hadith above Qur’an. Confusing.
This Muslim admitted that the Hadith is in contradiction to the Qur’an. Same guy who argued Qur’an over Hadith in other articles. Interesting. there is no way for a non-Muslim to know for sure what your religion teaches. https://bloggingtheology.net/2016/11/21/25170/#comment-32005
quote:
the command to sell his possessions was only for that one person, in context; and Jesus was testing him. If the man had agreed and submitted, Jesus would probably have said something like, “ok, now you need to keep some in order to live on and take care of your family”, etc. Jesus nor the apostles said that all us have to literally sell everything. But Jesus is saying that you must be willing for God to own all your stuff and you use your possessions for His glory; fight against greed and materialism, work hard, save your money, manage your money, pay your bills, don’t go into debt, etc. give some to the poor and the church, etc.
sorry, jesus was homeless preacher. he told his disciples to abandon their families and suffer on the streets.
Ken,
“Jesus would probably have said something like….” Again you are reading into the text that is not there.
The Qur’an exhorts us to believe in God and do good works, charity, kindness, mercy on others, etc. At the same time it is recognized that Salvation ultimately does not come from man and his deeds, but through the mercy of Allah. The Qur’an says “Inna Allaha kulli shay’in Qadeer” (Verily with Allah all things are possible) which is similar to what you quoted Jesus as saying “… for all things are possible with God.” And yes, all things are possible if God wills (Inshallah). This is said respectfully, but does not mean that Muslims are unsure of their own salvation, for Salvation and the Gardens of Paradise have been promised to the true believer in the Qur’an while no similar Guarantee is made using the word “promise” in Bible. According to the Qur’an AND Jesus Salvation Comes from God NOT through any belief in a man God, or through licentious Gospel of freedom from law and a lazy faith based redemption.
I am sure that you realize that a majority of Muslims will agree that Qur’an is superior to Hadeeth, they do not agree with all of “FOPM” views and opinions on Hadeeth.
that is your freedom and choice. If only the greater political Muslim world allow people the freedom to investigate other religions and freedom to choose other religions and freedom to respectfully criticize Islam. You have to ask yourself what are they afraid of?
Ken Temple
November 29, 2016 • 5:58 pm
that is your freedom and choice. If only the greater political Muslim world allow people the freedom to investigate other religions and freedom to choose other religions and freedom to respectfully criticize Islam. You have to ask yourself what are they afraid of?
Ken Temple
November 29, 2016 • 5:58 pm
at least the west allows the freedom to choose
I say;
Ken Temple, you are not telling the truth and forgetting that, the truth is there for anyone to see. The Christians west never allowed freedom of religion until forced on them when the liberals defeated them. They (Christians) think their feelings/experience means they are the truth forgetting that Idol worshipers have experience/feelings too.
They will disguise themselves as Muslims using a site like a Muslim site to distort Islam as Paul of Tarsus advised them to do. These type of thinking will not allow any religion when in power and the history shows.
There is proof non Muslims are still in Muslim majority lands as indigenous and Christians are still in the isis territories when captured there are Christians there.
The Christian rule did not allow any religion until beaten up and forced by the liberal west. Now they voted for Trump to ban all Muslims.
“Yes, valid argument, since the argument was “why is it (John 14:6) not in older gospels?” (Mark and Matthew, and Luke) They are all from first century, between 45 AD – 80 or 90 AD. Mark, Matthew and Luke pre-70 AD.”
johns jesus has been put on protein shakes. only you are unable to see this.
john seems to be a modalist too
not only that
he seems to have divinized the flesh of jesus lol
I did not commit shirk as a do not worship two gods. Sometime Jews called men ‘”God” such as Moses, David, and Melchizedek. John maybe in the same Jewish tradition.
Moses, in context – “He will be as God” (Exodus 7:1) is not the same as “is God”
Where is David called “God” ?
Psalm 110:1 is about Messiah to come, who is Lord / Yahweh, per Matthew 22:41-45 and Mark 12:35-37 and Luke 20:41-44 (remarkable agreement in all 3 synoptics)
you need to read entire books on the doctrine of the Trinity; it is profound indeed and a glorious truth; that confounds your mind. The beauty and exaltedness of it points to it’s truth. God’s love and truth and protection of Monotheism, at the same time His love and condescension and giving His life for us (Mark 10:45) is Amazing.
You said;
Jesus has the same Divine nature as God the Father.
ذات
I say;
I have the same human nature with you, am I Ken Temple? No
Can I and Ken Temple be counted as 2 human beings? Yes, except that person is a lunatic with no sense that will count me and Ken Temple as one human being to be counted in a national population census as one human being( I and Ken Temple).
National population census will not agree to count me and Ken Temple as one human being who is only and alone. They will say it is wrong and incorrect count of two human beings.
So I and Ken Temple cannot be counted 1 human being who is alone and only.
Ken Temple will argue 2 Gods can be counted as 1 God because they are not human being and God can be 1 being with 3 persons in his scripture.
He cannot get “1 being 3 persons God” in his scriptures but will quote something that is not “1 being 3 persons”
I will counter and quote what God said He is in his scripture
——————————–
“there is no one like Yahweh our God.” Exodus 8:10
“Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35
“Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
“See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
“Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
“You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22
“For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?” 2 Samuel 22:32
“Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
“You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
“O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
“You alone [bad] are Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6
“For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God” Psalm 18:31
“You alone [bad], Lord, are God.” Isaiah 37:20
———————————
and no where “1 being 3 persons God” is found but “God is 1, Only and alone” is in various parts of his(Temple’s) or HIs(God’s) scriptures.
Christians and Trinitarians are worshiping the God they defined themselves and think the feelings/experience they are getting is not from satan.
Idol worshipers define their own gods and get feelings/experience too just like the Trinitarians. Ken, an advise to long time friend. Repent and become a Muslim or in the Day of Judgement we your friends here will see Jesus(Issa) rejects you.
do they have the same mind? if they do then, you have s=f
so in reality you worship 1 person?
since they share “1 god” then jesus is sub category
I say;
One mind(Father’s) mind knows the end day and the Son’s mind did not know the end day. It sounds like 2 persons 2 minded God or 3 persons 3 minded God to me.
Yet Christians like Ken Temple will say they have the same attributes. Having different attributes makes them different beings/persons.
I cannot be the same being knowing something and not knowing the same thing at the same time. It is an impossibility.
I have the same human nature with you, am I Ken Temple? No
Can I and Ken Temple be counted as 2 human beings? Yes, . . .
The parallel does not follow, since God created millions of human beings; but there is only One God; so your argument fails
I say;
“The parallel does not follow, since God created millions of human being but there is only One God;” – Ken Temple.
Answer me. Are you saying God the Father is not God? Jesus Christ(Son) is not God?
If they are Gods, then the parallel follow.
God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit
Are you saying there is 4 persons 1 God?
5 persons 1 God? etc.
If you do not believe in 4 persons 1 God, then God created other persons as God as well because we have other persons as Gods and can be counted together with your Gods.
If it is possible to have more than one persons as God, how do you know that God did not reveal himself to other people at a particular point in time in creation?
Your scripture? You are not the only one who has a scripture. Other people have scripture too and God has revealed Himself as God to them.
The Greeks and Roman pagans has God revealing himself to them, so there is parallel with what I said.
that is why the doctrine of the Trinity is “One God by substance/being/essence” in three persons.” It protects Monotheism and reveals God’s love in eternal Spiritual relationship.
3 separate conscious pagan gods who share “1 god” and do action VERBS to each other.
in any ones mind, that is 3 separate conscious gods.
“Your god thought Mary was part of the Trinity; that the Trinity was “Father, Son, and Mother” – Surah 5:116; 5:72-75”
nowhere does it say they are “one”
mary is given supernatural abilities and is deified
bart ehrman says jews were deifying humans
interesting that quran did not say she and her son became CO-EQUAL
“God doesn’t “need” blood; but His holiness and wrath demand justice against sin. Your god makes light of sin.”
your
gods “holiness” needs blood
“Your god denies real history. (Surah 4:157)”
nobody can trust anything in the gospels. we don’t know if the beating jesus received came from isaiah 53 or from “eyewitnesses”
we don’t know the sources.
we do know that christians exaggerated like they exaggerated by making jesus’ burial more honourable.
nobody witnessed jesus leave empty tomb
nobody even knows if it was a public execution .
matthew places eyewitnesses at the resurrection of the many saints , but just because he writes like that , it does not mean fiction has history to it
”
Your god makes light of justice. Maybe that is why there are so many honor killings and anger and violence in the greater Muslim world – there is no satisfaction of justice in Islamic culture.”
the father in trinity honour was disrespected, so he kills his kid.
honour
ˈɒnə/Submit
noun
1.
high respect; great esteem.
“his portrait hangs in the place of honour”
synonyms: distinction, privilege, glory, tribute, kudos, cachet, prestige, fame, renown, merit, credit, importance, illustriousness, notability; More
2.
the quality of knowing and doing what is morally right.
so trinity has honour killing within it .
”
No one has assurance of peace or salvation; and that lack drives some to do suicide bombings and terrorism.”
neither do you know what will happen to you tomorrow.
”
The cross was where justice was satisfied, therefore, forgiveness and peace is possible.”
greeks, aztecs, egyptians, hebrews and others thought a violent bloody go between was requirement to bring “forgiveness” and “peace”
“27 books of NT – Yes, Jesus said “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. And when the Spirit of truth comes, He will lead you into all the truth . . . ” John 16:12-13″
the christians in acts could not quote one word from jesus to justify their practices. maybe jesus made a mistake in keeping silent on jewish rituals?
”
4 gospels are from 4 corners/angels/perspectives looking at one true historical event – life of Isa Al Masih, like 4 witnesses of a car accident, one witness on each corner.”
witnesses in a car accident need to be separated because of CONTAMINATION and other problems.
if “witnesses” were so good we would not need any other evidence, we would convict or release.
you are a pagan
”
True peace (John 14:27)and true love (Romans 5:8) and truth (John 14:6) results in real hope. (Romans 5:5; 1 Peter 1:3-5)”
true peace comes when you ASK God without bloody go between, jesus, budda , idols etc
not needed.
i quote
Jeremiah 2:5New International Version (NIV)
5 This is what the Lord says:
“What fault did your ancestors find in me,
that they strayed so far from me?
They followed worthless idols
and became worthless themselves.
quoting jewish commentary on this
In Jeremiah’s days there were Jews who strayed after idols and God asked them; “what flaw did you find in Me?” (Jeremiah 2:5). God asks Israel; what were you missing in your worship of Me? What joy did you not find in your relationship with Me? And this is the question that the Jew asks the Church. Why do we need Jesus? What does Jesus have to offer to us that God didn’t already give us? What will we find in Jesus that we don’t have in God? What are we missing when we love God as David did before us? What can we be missing? Can you add anything on to God?
I say;
I have the same human nature with you, am I Ken Temple? No
Can I and Ken Temple be counted as 2 human beings? Yes, . . .
===============
Ken Temple
November 29, 2016 • 4:31 pm
I say;
I have the same human nature with you, am I Ken Temple? No
Can I and Ken Temple be counted as 2 human beings? Yes, . . .
The parallel does not follow, since God created millions of human beings; but there is only One God; so your argument fails
===============
I say;
“The parallel does not follow, since God created millions of human being but there is only One God;” – Ken Temple.
Answer me. Are you saying God the Father is not God? Jesus Christ(Son) is not God?
If they are Gods, then the parallel follow.
God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit
Are you saying there is 4 persons 1 God?
5 persons 1 God? etc.
If you do not believe in 4 persons 1 God, then God created other persons as God as well because we have other persons as Gods and can be counted together with your Gods.
If it is possible to have more than one persons as God, how do you know that God did not reveal himself to other people at a particular point in time in creation?
Your scripture? You are not the only one who has a scripture. Other people have scripture too and God has revealed Himself as God to them.
The Greeks and Roman pagans has God revealing himself to them, so there is parallel with what I said.
Ken Temple
November 29, 2016 • 4:31 pm
I say;
I have the same human nature with you, am I Ken Temple? No
Can I and Ken Temple be counted as 2 human beings? Yes, . . .
The parallel does not follow, since God created millions of human beings; but there is only One God; so your argument fails
I say;
Ken Temple who believes God can generate/create another God i.e. God the Father generating/creating God the Son and of course can be counted like me and Ken and he is saying there is no parallel because God is one.
If God is one, why add 3 persons to Him and not 4 persons, why not 30 persons? Your scripture said God is “3 persons 1 being” is not found in your whole scripture. God is one is found several times in your scripture.
Did God create the 3 persons? God created millions of human beings(persons of course). God is one, did he create 3 persons as God?
Where in your scripture does it say “God is 3 persons 1 being God”? Some people have in their scriptures persons as God and so you believe more than one persons can be God and you are not the only one with scripture. You do not know whether at a certain point in creation God has revealed Himself to other people and they are telling you that God revealed Himself as a person to them. So the parallel passed that I can count persons Gods from Greek/Roman pagan Goddess of sex to Haile Selaissie, Sai Baba and other creatures like cow-gods.
quote:
that is why the doctrine of the Trinity is “One God by substance/being/essence” in three persons.” It protects Monotheism and reveals God’s love in eternal Spiritual relationship.
do you worship 1 conscious god + 3 conscious persons?
when you pray to yhwh, do you think of 3 conscious persons ?
when each is loving the other or making love to the other persons, what is it using? divine nature? how much? is each person firing back the same divine nature? is each person making full love on the other? love is an action. is the father using 100% divine nature to perform action on the son?
how is it possible that christians are monotheists ? there god is a group of persons. there is a boss and managed persons. there are actions between each. god is like a company . james white says “council”
they each “share”
“fully ”
the separate knowledge of what they share creates a separate person.
how is it possible they are worshippers of one god? their god is a company .
So the parallel passed that I can count persons Gods from Greek/Roman pagan Goddess of sex to Haile Selaissie, Sai Baba and other creatures like cow-gods.
I feel good that I can keep getting you to keep repeating that like Pavlov’s dog.
Ken,
Your responses to us are repetitive as well. Do you have a list of responses that you just copy and paste into the com box in different sequences?
Truth never changes.
But “intellect”‘s rants and repeated goofy stuff like Sai baba and monkey gods and Hale Salassee has no logical parallel, since the other Scriptures about God is one is also true for us.
At least I answer with solid theology, sound reasoning, and Scripture verses.
Since we both agree on Monotheism, “Intellect” should stop the goofy Monkey -god and Hindu pagan and Halle Salassee nutty stuff.
“But “intellect”‘s rants and repeated goofy stuff like Sai baba and monkey gods and Hale Salassee has no logical parallel, since the other Scriptures about God is one is also true for us.”
your god took on the form of a jew, why not the listed person in the quote above?
2000 years of Christian theology has defined the Trinitas Unitas as “One God in 3 persons”, based on the NT Scriptures. You accuse us of “3 gods”, but it is not fair of you, since the doctrine itself clearly states, “one God”
God the Father. Can you say God the Father is God? or not?
God the Son. Can you say God the Son is God? or not?
If they are Gods, then my parallel of comparing me and you passed. If you cannot answer, my parallel of comparing me and you counted as 2 beings stands and counting 2 gods is counting 2 beings and it is polytheism.
So, once again
Is Jesus God? one God
Is the Father who is not Jesus God? another God
So, the parallel between me and you stands. The Father generated/created the Son-Ken Temple
God created millions of human beings and God created/generated 2 or 1 Gods to Himself and make them 3.
the command to sell his possessions was only for that one person, in context; and Jesus was testing him. If the man had agreed and submitted, Jesus would probably have said something like, “ok, now you need to keep some in order to live on and take care of your family”, etc. Jesus nor the apostles said that all us have to literally sell everything. But Jesus is saying that you must be willing for God to own all your stuff and you use your possessions for His glory; fight against greed and materialism, work hard, save your money, manage your money, pay your bills, don’t go into debt, etc. give some to the poor and the church, etc.
here is an interesting tafseer :
First, it is curious that Jesus refers to following him as “taking up the cross” at a time before he is supposed to have died on a cross. If we are to assume Jesus knew about crucifixion before his own death, then he was apparently characterizing one’s following of him with severe persecution and death…which is a very far cry from anything experienced by modern-day Christians. Today’s Christians do not believe that following Jesus involves a serious sacrifice of one’s life, the way “take up your cross” would have been understood by Jesus’ original hearers in the first century, so “take up your cross” only increases the legalism of his gospel message. You don’t just “accept Jesus”, you have to live a life which constitutes taking up your “cross”, and you also have to follow the commandments.
Second, if we are to accept Jesus at his word, then when he said the rich man lacked one thing, we are not permitted to say he lacked two things. In context, the one thing he lacked was obedience to the commandment to love his neighbor as himself, which would require that he contribute to helping the poor (Leviticus 19:18). Since that qualifies as “one thing”, then apparently the second part of Jesus’ answer “come and follow me” is more or less an afterthought, an invitation to do something that might be a good idea, but which is not essential. Yes, Jesus did indeed teach that entry into the kingdom of God could be achieved simply by following the law, Matthew 5:19, so Christians who say Jesus thought following him was essential to salvation, are not appreciating his original legalistic teaching.
It needs to be emphasized that when Jesus said that man lacked “one thing”, Jesus contradicts Paul. Paul taught that everybody is sinful all day, every day, Romans 3:19-20. Paul would never have said that any certain person’s obedience to Mosaic law lacked “one thing”. On the other hand, if Jesus knew that the rich man lacked many things in his attempted obedience to Mosaic law, he would not have characterized such omissions as “one” thing. The problem therefore is that Jesus certainly disagreed with Paul and believed that a human being was capable of correctly obeying the full Mosaic Law. Luke agrees that sinners can obey the law to such a degree that God views them righteous for no other reason except their obedience to Mosaic Law, see Luke 1:5-6.
Third, first-century persecution of the Jews was usually for a reason other than their mere following of their own law, since of course despite being under Roman occupation at the time, Rome did not forbid them from practicing their religion.
Fourth, Jesus’ statement “take up your cross and follow me” is too ambiguous even in context to permit certitude about the details of what he meant, but since Jews were not singled out for persecution simply because they practiced Judaism, Jesus appears to be associating the choice to follow him with great hardship. I don’t think Jesus said this at all, I think it is Mark or somebody else who is currently enduring persecution in the late second century, and having Jesus associate such suffering with true followers would have been a comfort to Christians of that day.
Fifth, I see nothing in the context to indicate that “take up your cross and follow me” has anything to do with the issue of Jesus himself dying on a cross or one’s belief thereto.
Sixth, the apologist you quoted appears to have missed the point Jesus was making: You cannot follow Jesus unless you follow all of the commandments and live a life that constitutes taking up a “cross” (or enduring hardship). Therefore any Christian preaching that marginalizes one’s need to follow the Mosaic law, is contrary to the original gospel of Jesus.
at least that Tafseer you cut and pasted is good English.
But it fails to take into account the historical context that the Romans were already crucifying people, so Jesus’ statement is understood; and He predicted His own arrest, trials, crucifixion, death and resurrection several times from Matthew 16 onward and Mark 9 onward.
That Tafseer also fails to take into account lots of other Scripture and teaching on principles of how we are to handle our financial possessions.
“and He predicted His own arrest, trials, crucifixion, death and resurrection several times from Matthew 16 onward and Mark 9 onward.”
quote:
Well the Gospels are apologetics for the crucifixion, so they do not, in themselves, have overt clues that Jesus did *not* predict his own death. They are attempts at explanations after the fact. The reasons it is thought to be unlikely that Jesus predicted his own death and resurrection (aside from the fact that most sane people do not intentionally seek out one of the most brutal and agonizing forms of execution in history) is that there was no pre-Christian expectation that the Messiah was supposed to do that. It would have made no sense within the religious or historical context of Jesus and the disciples for a Messianic aspirant to say he would die. The notion of a Messiah dying for people’s sins was a Christian redefinition of the Messiah built around a need to explain the crucifixion
Ken,
Sorry but Jesus did not “predict His own arrest, trials, crucifixion, death and resurrection several times.” The Gospels were written by unknown pseudepigraphal authors who were writing about the events after the fact. So we don’t actually have proof of Jesus predicting anything, rather what we have is a forged account written long after Jesus had left us, putting words into is mouth about events which had already occurred, in an effort to raise and exalt the status of Jesus by alleging that he predicted his own demise.
And yet, there is still no verse where these unknown authors wrote that Jesus said “I have come to die on the cross for your salvation.”
Ya akhi Edward,
Your replies and comments are Good. But don’t lose the benefits and reward by using foul language. Please maintain the proper Adab and “argue with them in the best of manners” (Qur’an 16:125). This is what Allah and his Prophet ask from us.
the Son / the Word is eternal. John 1:1; John 17:5
eternal with the Father always in eternity past.
The Holy Spirit is eternal also.
One God from all eternity, in 3 persons. They were never without each other.
God is Love. Lover, Beloved, Love . . . spiritual, not physical – estaqfr’allah.
Intellect
November 29, 2016 • 5:41 pm
Ken Temple
November 29, 2016 • 5:17 pm
Not comprehendible
I say;
Let me make it comprehensible for you.
God the Father. Can you say God the Father is God? or not?
God the Son. Can you say God the Son is God? or not?
If they are Gods, then my parallel of comparing me and you passed. If you cannot answer, my parallel of comparing me and you counted as 2 beings stands and counting 2 gods is counting 2 beings and it is polytheism.
So, once again
Is Jesus God? one God
Is the Father who is not Jesus God? another God
So, the parallel between me and you stands. The Father generated/created the Son-Ken Temple
God created millions of human beings and God created/generated 2 or 1 Gods to Himself and make them 3.
quote :
the Son / the Word is eternal. John 1:1; John 17:5
eternal with the Father always in eternity past.
The Holy Spirit is eternal also.
One God from all eternity, in 3 persons. They were never without each other.
God is Love. Lover, Beloved, Love . . . spiritual, not physical – estaqfr’allah.
So your argumentation does not follow.
end quote
spiritual? when the father does the action of sending the son, is that spiritual or physical? are some actions spiritual and some physical? does the father chat with the son and the son compliment him and receive compliments back?
these 3 gods use “one god ” on each other?
is “one god” OBJECT of PERSONS?
how much of it is used?
Salaam Ken,
you have my apology on behalf of brother Edward. We may have polite disagreements, but foul language and insults from either side of the conversation are not beneficial to anyone here.
Ibn Issam wrote: Sorry but Jesus did not “predict His own arrest, trials, crucifixion, death and resurrection several times.” The Gospels were written by unknown pseudepigraphal authors who were writing about the events after the fact.
I understand that argument, based on liberal scholarship, that Muslims use.
Martin Hengel, an eminent scholar, (recently passed away) who I believe even Paul Williams used him at least once at one of his three blogs; wrote (in the quote):
As far as the title (“kata Markov” = according to Mark), Hengel insists that the lack of the smallest shred of any other name for the gospel is important. “The unanimity of testimony to the titles of the Gospels, for which there are still no variants of any kind in this early period, rules out a late origin” (p 66) for the title.
R. T. France has an extended discussion of this issue in his commentary on Mark, on pages 39-40.
France points out that:
“In contrast to this general skepticism, Martin Hengel’s Studies in the Gospel of Mark offers a robust argument for taking the patristic accounts of Mark seriously. Hengel is particularly scornful of the repeated assertion that the gospels are ‘anonymous’ documents, to which the names of authors were conjecturally attached sometime in the second century. his study on the titles of the Gospels argues that as soon as more than one written version of the ευαγγελιον was in circulation some label would be necessary in order to distinguish them, and the only such labels we know are the traditional terms κατα Μαθθαιον, κατα Μαρκον, etc. which are found with remarkable unanimity from as early as we can trace the titles of the books. Hengel points out how improbable it is that a late conjectural attribution could have produced such unanimity and left no trace of alternative attributions. He also quotes Tertullian, Adv. Marcion 4.2.3, as typical of the the view that a ‘gospel’ not bearing the name of its author could not be accepted as authoritative. It is thus altogether improbable that gospel books cold have circulated in the latter part of the first century without titles, and those titles took the form of a statement of authorship. The tradition that Mark was the author of this gospel therefore goes back even earlier than Papias, close to the time of the book’s own composition. ” (R. T. France, The Gospel of Mark, pages 39-40)
A footnote # 80 on page 39 says:
“. . . most modern books (including this commentary) are also ‘anonymous’; it is only on the title page and cover that the author is named. And ancient manuscripts regularly carried titles or colophones which be expected to identify the word contained in them; it was in such titles rather than in the text itself that the author’s name would be found.”
In short, every evidence that we have when we have the title page of the gospels, κατα Μαθθαιον, κατα Μαρκον, Κατα Λυκαν, κατα Ιωαννην (John) are all there, when extant.
Ken,
Also we weren’t all born like you speaking English as mother tongue so please give us a pass if we make some mistakes. Just try and get the point. Fair enough?
Fair enough;
I realize that; but sometimes, some here are just not comprehendible and sometimes spelling is not very good. but usually I understand you all. Sometimes Intellect just does not make sense; but I continue to strive to understand what he is saying.
you are self righteous scum. if a person who had better command of english then you and pointed out to you your grammatical mistakes and then said “at least his english is…”
what would you think? i don’t pretend to know arabic and copy and paste arabic trying to look impressive in front of people. you are self righteous scum bag.
Actually, I did not cut and paste Arabic, but I typed it out, using Farsi software. The Arabs converted the Iranians to Islam and also converted their script. we have 40 % Arabic words and roots in Farsi / Persian. I learned Farsi fluently and was taught in the Farsi grammar books what the Arabic roots and words are; and also I can add the definite article “The” ال to words.
We these Arabic words in Farsi:
We have “Way” in Farsi – طریق
We have “truth” in Farsi – حق
We have “life” in Farsi – حیاه , but Iranians write it حیات
so, I just added the definite article Al ال to them and typed them out.
الطریق
الحق
الحیات
This also means I can pick out what ever words that we have in Farsi that is in the Qur’an, and that is helpful to know those words and be able to see them in the Arabic Qur’an.
For example, this verse, Surah 4:171 – almost (not all, but most) every Arabic word here, we also have in Farsi, or the root of it. It feels good to be able to see them and pick them out with understanding.
“For example, this verse, Surah 4:171 – almost (not all, but most) every Arabic word here, we also have in Farsi, or the root of it. It feels good to be able to see them and pick them out with understanding.”
okay, gone then, pick them out , and lets see if they SOUND the same and MEAN the same thing. farsi and arabic are two different language. who looks at farsi words to understand an arabic text ? who looks at french words written in english script to understand english language?
“pick them out with understanding” ? what?
I have Farsi translations and English also, so it is understandable. All together, looking at all three translations, it is gratifying to learn and see the words and the meanings.
yes, I know the grammar is different. but still, almost every word we have in Farsi has the same meaning in the original Arabic, and I can see the words and roots of words when they come from the Arabic original.
Ken Temple
November 29, 2016 • 6:26 pm
Fair enough;
I realize that; but sometimes, some here are just not comprehendible and sometimes spelling is not very good. but usually I understand you all. Sometimes Intellect just does not make sense; but I continue to strive to understand what he is saying.
I say;
Show me the mistake I made on this one that you cannot answer.
————————-
Intellect
November 29, 2016 • 5:53 pm
Intellect
November 29, 2016 • 5:41 pm
Ken Temple
November 29, 2016 • 5:17 pm
Not comprehendible
I say;
Let me make it comprehensible for you.
God the Father. Can you say God the Father is God? or not?
God the Son. Can you say God the Son is God? or not?
If they are Gods, then my parallel of comparing me and you passed. If you cannot answer, my parallel of comparing me and you counted as 2 beings stands and counting 2 gods is counting 2 beings and it is polytheism.
So, once again
Is Jesus God? one God
Is the Father who is not Jesus God? another God
So, the parallel between me and you stands. The Father generated/created the Son-Ken Temple
God created millions of human beings and God created/generated 2 or 1 Gods to Himself and make them 3.
Thanks
——————————-
If your theology is not comprehensible, you blame it on poor intellect’s English language.
When you said “Not Comprehendible”, any reader will understand that it is your theology that is not comprehensible and not my English language. We all make mistakes here including you and we all attended American colleges and passed in our English language and communication classes and we all make mistakes, that is why we all use word processing spell check and thesaurus to help us.
Most non college Americans cannot speak English than us. They cannot write English like us and some Muslims who comment here are white English and Americans.
Radical Moderate makes a lot of mistakes here and he is a white man living in America. Do not think some of us do not pass our English language and communication tests in the colleges in USA.
Every reader of blogging theology know that I am using my intellect very well and my English is good but sometimes makes mistakes like anyone else. I just type hurriedly in work to post and get my message across. If I am writing my report, i use spell check and thesaurus. Ken, don’t you use spellcheck and thesaurus?
” so Jesus’ statement is understood; and He predicted His own arrest, trials, crucifixion, death and resurrection several times from Matthew 16 onward and Mark 9 onward.”
did mark make any future predictions?
did matthew make future predictions?
when mark ran off to the hill he thought jesus was going to come back soon. mark waited and waited and then said “they said nothing to anyone for they were afraid”
mark is writing about his lack of faith in jesus.
you have no proof he predicted his own arrest . he may have got caught off guard and then 40 years later christians said “he knew it all along”
40 years is enough time to make up “predictions ” for your god
after all, they had the ot in front of them and thought he “fulfilled ” ot predictions
jesus did not predict that his father will forsake him
jesus did not know that his human condition will make him beg for the cup to be removed.
Yes, Jesus predicted His trials, death, and resurrection at least 3 times.
Mark 8:31-38New American Standard Bible (NASB)
31 And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. 32 And He was stating the matter plainly. And Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him. 33 But turning around and seeing His disciples, He rebuked Peter and *said, “Get behind Me, Satan; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s.”
Mark 9:31
31 For He was teaching His disciples and telling them, “The Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill Him; and when He has been killed, He will rise three days later.”
Mark 10:32-34
32 They were on the road going up to Jerusalem, and Jesus was walking on ahead of them; and they were amazed, and those who followed were fearful. And again He took the twelve aside and began to tell them what was going to happen to Him, 33 saying, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered to the chief priests and the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death and will and Him over to the Gentiles. 34 They will mock Him and spit on Him, and scourge Him and kill Him, and three days later He will rise again.”
Edward,
Thanks for posting those links which help defend our assertion that Jesus did not actually predict his own demise as Ken wrongly thinks the Gospels prove.
the article does not interact with Hengel or R. T. France’s points. The author is a flaming atheist and skeptic, from what I can tell. those attacks are nothing new; at least we are not afraid of freedom to criticize; whereas the Muslim world does not allow that kind of freedom; and many who venture out and write those same kinds of things in Muslim world get arrested, loose their jobs, or get hurt or killed.
Richard Carrier was banned from his atheists/skeptics group because of his lack of ethics, adulteries, lies, cheating on his wife, later admitting it all; and then she divorced him and he claims that being “polyamorous” is his orientation. He is a shameful person.
“Great is the mystery of our religion . . . He who was manifested in the flesh . . . ”
I Timothy 3:16
I say;
Flesh?
Manifested in flesh? Makes your God great?
To your disappointment, he is not the only God who manifested in flesh.
1. Emperor Haile Selassie
2. Sai Baba
3. Cow-Gods
4. Monkeys
etc.
“How do you know that, at a particular point in creation, God did not reveal Himself as a Hindu God?”-Shabbir Ally.
You feel good to call me dog for repeating your creature-God, after you repeat the same thing like Jesus Christ called a woman dog. It is sinfulness to use abusive language like dog to a human being. God is not happy when He is called a creature or created 100% man.
“2. That there is a way to be saved from sin and know it and have assurance of it.”
christian are not saved from sin, they continue to sin and continue to repent and try to be “christ like ” (accept in thier kitchens, unlike jesus, they wash their hands ) christians are finding assurance in their deeds and faith and deceiving people that they trust in the human sacrificial ritual of jeussos.
we are saved from the eternal guilt of sin that sends people to hell. We have forgiveness and eternal life and assurance of heaven.
We are being saved from the power of sin, but still struggle against it and will be saved at death from the presence of sin.
We still may sin; but God’s love and forgiveness motivates us to confess and repent and grow in holiness.
1 John 1:5-10; 2:1-2
5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;
7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
1 John 2:1-2
1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
ken , what i see is that christianity allows one to get away with sins. your “repentance” = works/thoughts from “born in sin” sinful individuals. you are allowed to get away with guilt . since your guilt is transferable.
Read Galatians 5:19-23 and 1 John 1:5-10 and 2:1-2 and a good book that explains the difference between justification and sanctification.
John McArthur’s two books are very good –
“The Gospel According to Jesus”
“The Gospel According to the Apostles”
John Piper’s “Future Grace” is also very good.
Jerry Bridges, “the Discipline of Grace”
R. C. Sproul, “Faith Alone”
James White, “The God Who Justifies”
ken , who punished the son for all sins? when the son is being punished, is he fully god and fully human?
when the son is being punished is talking to his divine side which is in his body?
when he is being punished , is he supporting himself through his “fully god” side?
in the depths of hell, people will not receive divine support.
does “god the son” support himself when he is being punished on the cross?
Isaiah 53:6
“. . . The Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him”
Isaiah 53:10
“it pleased the Lord to crush Him, if He would render Himself a guilt offering . . .
Galatians 3:10-13
10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”
11 Now that no one is justified [p]by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.”
12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.”
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”— 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
The Son voluntarily and willing came to be that sacrifice.
John 10:18
“no one takes my life from Me, I lay it down voluntarily on my own initiative, and I take it up again . . . ”
You don’t understand the difference between justification (Galatians 2:16; Romans 4:1-16; 5:1; Romans 8:33-34 -a point in time at repentance and faith, that is a state of being until death) and sanctification (the process of becoming more and more Christ-like as a result of true justification).
do the works of jesus allow you to get away with weak repentance, sinful deeds, sinful thoughts etc because you are “born in sin” and “stained with original sin”
yes they do. jesus’ “works” allow christians to get away with sins. the father tolerates christians because he sees the cooling he received from punishing jesus. it is your religion which believe guilt is transferable.
so repentance, deeds etc is nonsense. it makes no sense in your life.
Hengel and R. T. France’s argumentation is compelling, even with that long liberal skeptical article. (lots of Bart Ehrman, etc. – radical skepticism.)
The fact is, there are no other extant variations on the titles of the gospels.
the fact is, no other claims were made against Matthew, mark, Luke, and john. No one else claimed other authors in all church history.
same here brother . i pray one day you will see that 3 persons means 3 gods . with all my heart and sincerity i pray that you come back home to the milla of ibraheem
Galatians 3:6-9
6 Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
Galatians 3:13-14 –
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”—
14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Galatians 3:24-29
24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.
Thanks Abdullah. Except Galatians is revelation from God, through the apostle Paul, written (around 49 AD) some 600 years before your prophet came along. And Jesus Al Masih
عیسی المسیح
Himself taught similar truth also in John 8:31-36 – The Son of God sets us free from sin, by true repentance and faith in Him.
khudaa. interesting . found in urdu and panjabi. you were mocking my english but i will tell you i am multi lingual. i can speak some swahili also. i tell you the truth , in all the languages 3 means more than 1. and you sir, worship 3 gods.
you worship 3 shaqs . you must understand to arabic speaks and urdu speakers this implies 3 separate persons/individuals. you must acknowledge you worship 3 gods.
Yes, I know that; but Christian theology defined the persons from the texts of the NT by their interaction with each other – “the Father loves the Son”, “the Son prays to the Father” and “the Spirit testifies to the Son”, etc. – the Greek original in this theology is hupostasis / ‘υποστασις which in Latin, is persona. The English “person” comes from the Latin.
I realize and know what it sounds like. but we have to explain and teach the Scripture verses and the theology that informs it. That is why there is a distinction between “nature”/substance in John 1:1c (the word was God) (same substance) and “person” in John 1:1b (the Word was with God”. There are at least 2 conditions or states in these 2 phrases – one is about nature/substance/essence and the other is about person/personal relationship (face to face, with each other – relational terms.
“Yes, I know that; but Christian theology defined the persons from the texts of the NT by their interaction with each other – “the Father loves the Son”, “the Son prays to the Father” and “the Spirit testifies to the Son”, etc. ”
why make all the trouble? that you make all this trouble, you confuse everybody. that you need to see action verbs within god implies separate gods.
“I realize and know what it sounds like.”
because in your fitra you know it is 3 gods, but devils inside your mind are not making you accept fitra.
”
but we have to explain and teach the Scripture verses and the theology that informs it. That is why there is a distinction between “nature”/substance in John 1:1c (the word was God) (same substance) and “person” in John 1:1b (the Word was with God”. There are at least 2 conditions or states in these 2 phrases – one is about nature/substance/essence and the other is about person/personal relationship (face to face, with each other – relational terms. ”
i am not clever enough to understand this stuff. how is person interacting with other persons using SAME “one nature” when it is SUBSET?
when jesus is managed by the father or loving or communicating , then each must be using “one nature” but each has separated himself ergo 3 gods.
Great minds wrestled with the OT and NT texts and explained these things a long time ago –
Ignatius – 107 AD
Justin Martyr – 150 AD
Tertullian – 190-220 AD
Origen (250 AD)
Athanasius – 300-373
Augustine – 354-430 AD
Gregory of Nyssa (332-395 AD)
Gregory of Nazianzus (329-389 AD)
Basil of Caesarea (330-379 AD)
Hillary (310-367 AD)
The doctrine of the Trinity demonstrates respect for the Bible, rather than trying to make God simple and understandable.
“If Christianity was something we were making up, of course we could make it easier. But it is not. We cannot compete, in simplicity, with people who are inventing religions. How could we? We are dealing with Fact. Of course anyone can be simple if he has no facts to bother about.”
C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, p. 145. (MacMillan Publishing Company, Inc. New York, 1943, 1945, 1952. (Originally in Beyond Personality: The Christian Idea of God, 1944, p. 19)
“The doctrine of the Trinity was formulated by followers of Jesus Christ to safeguard the good news that in Jesus Christ we encounter God face to face. It was not devised to make God less understandable, or to make God so mysterious that the common people have to depend on clergy and theologians to understand it for them, as the JWs [Jehovah’s Witnesses] charge. Instead, the doctrine of the Trinity was developed out of respect for God’s revelation of Himself. [the Scriptures, OT and NT] The Witnesses’ doctrines about God, Christ, and “holy spirit”, on the other hand, were developed not in order to represent the bible’s teaching more faithfully, but to make God understandable and comprehensible. “
“The choice is therefore between believing in the true God as he has revealed himself, mystery and all, or believing in a God that is relatively simple to understand but bears little resemblance to the true God. Trinitarians are willing to live with a God they cannot fully comprehend. As C. S. Lewis put it:
“If Christianity was something we were making up, of course we could make it easier. But it is not. We cannot compete, in simplicity, with people who are inventing religions. How could we? We are dealing with Fact. Of course anyone can be simple if he has no facts to bother about.”
ehovah’s Witnesses (Arianism) and Islam are similar in that they reject the doctrine of the Trinity; which demonstrate that they are man made religions, among other problems of many false doctrines. Making God easier to understand demonstrates that these (both Islam and Jehovah’s Witnesses) are man-made religions.
“making god easier to understand”
okay, maybe 1 person in trinity is not 1 person but consists of many persons?
if 1 can mean 3 and god does not want you to understand one to mean absolute one, then one person in trinity cannot be absolute one since that would be “making god easier to understand”
cheers ken.
We don’t change our texts or our theology in order to make God easier to understand; we have to trust God to open your heart and give you repentance and faith and then comes understanding. The mystery of God points to the truth of Who He is; since He is so great and above us and yet came down to us and loved us. “Amazing Love! how can it be that Thou my God shouldst die for me? ” Charles Wesley
(he means the eternal Son / word came and died, (“Thou My God shouldst die for Me”), he does not mean the Father died)
Try reading Tertullian “Against Praxaes”, or Athanasius, “On the Incarnation of the Word” or Augustine’s “On the Trinity” – they are available at ccel.org
or some of the Cappadocian fathers (Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory of Nazianzius, Basil of Caesarea)
“The Maker of the universe,
As Man for man was made a curse.
The claims of Law which He had made,
Unto the uttermost He paid.
His holy fingers made the bough,
Which grew the thorns that crowned His brow.
The nails that pierced His hands were mined
In secret places He designed.
He made the forest whence there sprung
The tree on which His body hung.
He died upon a cross of wood,
Yet made the hill on which it stood.
The sky that darkened o’er His head,
By Him above the earth was spread.
The sun that hid from Him it’s face
By His decree was poised in space.
The spear which spilled His precious blood
Was tempered in the fires of God.
The grave in which His form was laid
Was hewn in rocks His hands had made.
The throne on which He now appears
Was His from everlasting years.
But a new glory crowns His brow
And every knee to Him shall bow.
The Maker of the Universe”
____________________
I love this song! I love the doctrine and affections and emotion of this song! As Jonathan Edwards would say, “I love the sound doctrine that produces right affections and emotions.” It captures the truths of the incarnation, the Deity of Christ, His humility and love and willingness to suffer for us. The incarnation and suffering of the eternal Son of God points to the Trinity, “trinitas in unitas”, “three in one”, as Tertullian wrote. In Against Praxeas, chapter 3.
The second person, the eternal Son, the eternal Word (John 1:1-5), became a human (john 1:14; Philippians 2:5-8), took on a human nature and demonstrated His love and truth to us. (Romans 5:8) Amazing love and truth!!
God Himself is beautiful because of the perfection of His character and attributes and nature; and the David spoke of “mediating on and beholding the beauty of the Lord” (Psalm 27:4Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)). The Trinity is beautiful because it proclaims that God is one and shows God as loving relationship from all eternity; uncreated, eternal, Sovereign.
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God” (John 1:1Open in Logos Bible Software (if available))
“For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,” (Colossians 2:9Open in Logos Bible Software (if available))
“. . . Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. “For although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped.” (Philippians 2:5-8Open in Logos Bible Software (if available))
“God, . . .
in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
. . .
And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
“AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”
. . .
But of the Son He says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.”
(Hebrews 1:1- 3Open in Logos Bible Software (if available), 6Open in Logos Bible Software (if available), 8Open in Logos Bible Software (if available).)
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. ( John 1:1-5Open in Logos Bible Software (if available))
“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the one and only Son, full of grace and truth.” (John 1:14Open in Logos Bible Software (if available))
“Great is the LORD and Greatly to be praised, His greatness is unsearchable” Psalm 145:3
okay ken, i don’t even know how many “his” there are . maybe 3 his’ share greatness?
i don’t even know if “divine nature ” is great or each person is great
i don’t know
maybe it is talking about divine nature faqat?
but each person is less than divine nature/1 god
so it cannot be talking about each person
I was not trying to mock your English; just saying that sometimes it (and Intellect) was not understandable; . . . that’s all.
But mostly I understand what you are getting at. 😉
“The mystery of God points to the truth of Who He is; since He is so great and above us and yet came down to us and loved us. “Amazing Love! how can it be that Thou my God shouldst die for me? ”
god is above us then became below us?
ken, this will send people to accident and emergency.
how do you derive “so great” from lowered/emptied/incarnated while at the same time believe another person remained in full un-empty, un incarnated un lowered state?
ken, this will send people to accident and emergency.
what are you making out of god? what have you done to god?
“The mystery of God points to the truth of Who He is; since He is so great and above us and yet came down to us and loved us. “Amazing Love! how can it be that Thou my God shouldst die for me? ”
kenny, you don’t even experience the low between the 3 since you are finite and created.
and “jesus” is nothing but “biological chemical reactions” which remains disconnected, separated , unmixed from “divine logos”
ken, many pagan gods came down and gave their love and made sacrifices for their people . some gods came down as husband
some as sacrificial cow
some as wife.
God created emotions; God created us in His own spiritual image (Genesis 1:26-28) and God has personality, love, emotions, joy, anger against sin, etc. – The true God is the God of love. “God is Love” points to the Trinity.
But do you admit that Allah created personality and feelings and emotions? How do you explain how Allah came up with personality, feelings, emotions, mind, etc. ?
ehovah’s Witnesses (Arianism) and Islam are similar in that they reject the doctrine of the Trinity; which demonstrate that they are man made religions, among other problems of many false doctrines. Making God easier to understand demonstrates that these (both Islam and Jehovah’s Witnesses) are man-made religions.
I say;
“there is no one like Yahweh our God.” Exodus 8:10
“Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35
“Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
“See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
“Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
“You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22
“For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?” 2 Samuel 22:32
“Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
“You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
“O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
“You alone [bad] are Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6
“For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God” Psalm 18:31
“You alone [bad], Lord, are God.” Isaiah 37:20
The above verses is clearly written to confirm the God of the Arians(Witness), Jews, Unitarians and Muslims but “3 persons 1 God” is missing.
I was not trying to mock your English; just saying that sometimes it (and Intellect) was not understandable; . . . that’s all.
But mostly I understand what you are getting at.
faqat = فقط = “only”
I say;
When your theology is not understandable, you blame it on our English language.
Is the Father who is not Jesus, a God?
Is Jesus(Son) who is Father, God?
You cannot answer this question and no Trinitarian can answer it. If the Father is God and the Son is God, then any kindergarten child will count 2 Gods. This is what I asked and you blamed it on my English language.
We all make mistakes here and some of us have passed our English and communication classes in Europe, North America or Australian colleges.
Spell check and thesaurus is not for non English natives alone. It is for English natives as well because everyone makes mistakes. We have speech writers, proofreaders in any organization to correct mistakes.
I type while working and no time to proof read and I admit I do have some mistakes but people are getting my message.
“But do you admit that Allah created personality and feelings and emotions? How do you explain how Allah came up with personality, feelings, emotions, mind, etc. ?”
this is like asking how did God come up with male and feeling parts? lol
“male and feeling parts?” – what do you mean by that?
physical touch, physical organs?
or the emotions of being a male, ?
did you mean “female” also – the unseen feminine feelings?
need to be more specific.
Genesis 1:26-28 is not about the physical image, but rather the unseen internal spiritual/soulish image inside of man and woman that sets us apart from animals and enables us to have a relationship with God, spiritual life, ethics, right vs. wrong, consciousness, self-awareness, communication, creativity, language, ability to reason and think and argue a thesis, theory, etc. ability to do philosophy, etc.
Some good books on the Trinity:
1. James White. The Forgotten Trinity. Bethany House Publishers, 1998.
2. Robert Bowman. Why You Should Believe in the Trinity: An Answer to Jehovah’s Witnesses. Baker Books, 1989.
3. Timothy George. Is the Father of Jesus the God of Muhammad? Zondervan, 2002. (While I disagree with Timothy George’s recent ecumenism with Roman Catholicism, this book is very good for the theological issues in dealing with Islam.)
4. John Piper. “Contending for Christ Contra Mundum: Exile and Incarnation in the Life of Athanasius”, in Contending For Our All. Crossway Books, 2006. Piper’s chapter on Athanasius speaks to sound doctrine, church history, apologetics, contextualization, hermeneutics, and he addresses the emerging church issue. Highly recommended.
The “Trinitas -Unitas God”, “three in One” God is the Sovereign Creator God who is and was relationship from all eternity past. Amazing! Awesome!
The Trinity answers the issue of longing for that connection of relationship with the living God; He is relationship; love from all eternity; Lover, Beloved, and Love in relationship; Father, Son, and Spirit.
The Trinity and incarnation also enters us into answering the issue of suffering and why God has ordained that suffering and evil happen.
Dorothy Sayers, the Anglican writer, wrote an interesting piece, seeking to answer the issue of why God allowed evil to come into the world. Reformed theology speaks of “God ordaining all things” – and when it comes to evil entering the world, we understand “ordaining” as “deciding that it would happen” (Acts 2:22-23Open in Logos Bible Software (if available); 4:27-28Open in Logos Bible Software (if available); Ephesians 1:11Open in Logos Bible Software (if available); Romans 9:22-23Open in Logos Bible Software (if available), Isaiah 45:7Open in Logos Bible Software (if available); Amos 3:6Open in Logos Bible Software (if available); Lam. 3:37-38Open in Logos Bible Software (if available); Genesis 50:20Open in Logos Bible Software (if available); Romans 8:28-29Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)) while at the same time not being the one who does the evil. (I John 1:5Open in Logos Bible Software (if available); Hab. 1:13Open in Logos Bible Software (if available); Isaiah 6; Titus 1:2Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)) As John Piper has written, “God is not a sinner.” While some of Sayer’s statement is not theologically precise, and some is not the best wording; I still think it captures a good apologetic truth for the skeptic and a strength for a young believer growing in theology:
“For whatever reason God chose to make man as he is – limited and suffering and subject to sorrows and death – He had the honesty and the courage to take His own medicine. Whatever game He is playing with His creation, He has kept His own rules and played fair. He can exact nothing from man that He has not exacted from Himself. He has Himself gone through the whole of human experience, from the trivial irritations of family life and the cramping restrictions of hard work and lack of money to the worst horrors of pain and humiliation and defeat, despair and death. When He was a man, He played the man. He was born in poverty and died in disgrace and thought it well worth while.” (Dorothy Sayers, Creed or Chaos? New York: Harcourt, Brace and Col, 149, p. 4; cited in Josh McDowell and Don Stewart, Answers to Tough Questions. Here’s Life Publishers, 1980, p. 153-154.
“But do you admit that Allah created personality and feelings and emotions? How do you explain how Allah came up with personality, feelings, emotions, mind, etc. ?”
kind of funny you believe that your god experiences cause and effect. an accident maybe cause sadness, but what causes feelings of emotions in god? makes no sense.
maybe your god experiences mood swings like the following
Bipolar disorder is characterized by extreme mood swings, usually between mania and depression. A mood swing is an extreme or rapid change in mood. … However, when mood swings are so strong that they are disruptive, they may be the main part of a bipolar disorder.
so how did god come up with bipolar disorder ? does he experience them ?
“But do you admit that Allah created personality and feelings and emotions? How do you explain how Allah came up with personality, feelings, emotions, mind, etc. ?”
btw the father is emotionless because he experiences no incarnation and the son cannot put feeling of being human in him. think about it . you really are pagans
poor god. must have been heart broken. must have become helpless. all those sins and he becoming sad and sad like human being. until he drowned everyone . and then continued being sad when he left sinners on a boat.
“18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”
i think a lot of pagan human worshippers attributed uniqueness to their gods and gave them pre-existence. if jews could come up with one, then surely others came up with one too.
jews have a habit of worshipping celetial bodies, animals, pagan gods and in the book of kings thought the patriarcs were mushriks
except Yahweh Himself predicted these things. Isaiah 7:14; 9:6; Genesis 3:15 (the seed of woman), etc.
The reality in eternity past (John 1:1-5) caused the historical events of the incarnation (John 1:14; Luke 1:34-35; Philippians 2:5-8), atonement, resurrection, outpouring of the Holy Spirit.
My Iranian friend Kamyar, who was my second Farsi teacher in 1994, said this to me:
“The two most amazing things about Christianity are:
1. That God, who we were taught in Islam, was far off and aloof, became a man like us, clothed Himself in flesh.”
and
2. That there is a way to be saved from sin and know it and have assurance of it.
“دو چیز خیلی عالی است در مسیحیت
1. که خدا، که ما در اسلام تعلیم یافتیم که خیلی دور از ما می ماند، انسان شد مثل ما شد، و خود را جسم پوشید،
و 2. که یک راهی را وجود دارد برای نجات از گناه و می توانیم آن راه را بدانیم، و اطمینان داشته باشیم
The greatest among the gods have drawn close to our city…
Both Demeter and Demetrius…
Hail to you, O Son of the mighty god Poseidon and of Aphrodite.
The other gods dwell so far away,
or else they have no ears,
or they do not exist, or do not care at all about us
We see you in our midst,
not a wooden or stone presence, but bodily
And so we pray to you… bring about peace
for you are the Lord (κύριος)
Notice what is said of Demetrius. He is one of the “greatest gods,” the son of God” (specifically of the gods Poseidon and Aphrodite), one who is “near” his own people – not remote, off on Mount Olympus, the one who “brings peace,” who can be called “Lord.”
These ascriptions to Demetrius should sound familiar to anyone who knows about early Christianity, where Jesus too was known as the incarnation of a divine being, the Son of God, the bringer of peace, the Lord, and God in the flesh. My ultimate point: Jesus was not the first to be called such things, or thought to be a kind of incarnation of the divine. He had predecessors.
But the Baghiva ghita is pagan; whereas the Qur’an affirms the Torah and Tanakh, and the One True God prophesied of the virgin birth and incarnation, and even Islam affirms the virgin birth of the Messiah. Surah 3 and 19
“God was sad that He had made man, because of man’s rebellion and sin. Genesis 6:5-6 – He had emotions before the incarnation. But not “mood swings”.”
god was sad? i thought internally there was love making going on and that such is inherent emotion between the 3, so sadness would be taken care of by the action of love making
Your theology is not comprehensible and you cannot answer my question, hence blaming your incomprehensible theology to my English. Find below the copy and pasted question. You also accuse me of repeating Haile Selassie etc. God-Man. Don’t you keep repeating the God-Man Jesus to us? which is an impossibility like all God-Men.
Intellect
November 29, 2016 • 5:53 pm
Intellect
November 29, 2016 • 5:41 pm
Ken Temple
November 29, 2016 • 5:17 pm
Not comprehendible
I say;
Let me make it comprehensible for you.
God the Father. Can you say God the Father is God? or not?
God the Son. Can you say God the Son is God? or not?
If they are Gods, then my parallel of comparing me and you passed. If you cannot answer, my parallel of comparing me and you counted as 2 beings stands and counting 2 gods is counting 2 beings and it is polytheism.
So, once again
Is Jesus God? one God
Is the Father who is not Jesus God? another God
So, the parallel between me and you stands. The Father generated/created the Son-Ken Temple
God created millions of human beings and God created/generated 2 or 1 Gods to Himself and make them 3.
Interesting fact. The Hebrew word for truth is Emet אמת which is the first, middle and last letters of the alphabet. Which symbolizes the beginning and the end and the core of all things and ideas the Ultimate Truth. There were Jewish sages that didn’t say the word אמת in unclean places not to violate the Name of the “True” God…
explain “infinite love” and how are you connected to it? you are finite and created and jesus is “biological chemical reactions”
does each person experience love like a human?
does he get sad like a human? does father practice sadness on the son and vice versa?
The Jewish Scriptures say that God created mankind in His own image (Genesis 1:26-28). We know that this does not mean physical image because God is invisible and Spirit and eternal, non physical, non-material.
The invisible spiritual image came first.
So, pure and good emotions without sin, came first. Along with mind, will, consciousness, creativity, reason, ethics, good vs. evil, etc.
“Let Us make man in our image” – points back to the plurality in God, Trinity in Unity.
yet your god became physical. invisible to visible.and he had feelings like human being. are you telling me your god can’t experience human feelings without flesh? every emotion you mention, you have to redefine it to mean something else, because NOBODY knows JACK about what infinite being “feels”
ken , who punished the son for all sins? when the son is being punished, is he fully god and fully human?
when the son is being punished is he talking to his divine side which is in his body?
when he is being punished , is he supporting himself through his “fully god” side?
in the depths of hell, people will not receive divine support.
does “god the son” support himself when he is being punished on the cross?
i assume “fully god” and “fully man”
in
“unity”
support each other/ or one is supported by another while it is being punished
but normal humans, in hell will receive no support and will not be able to “bear” punishment
you god seems to have taken it easy on himself, ken.
Vis-a-vis the translation question in this thread:
There are lots of scholarly and academic translations which are appropriate. NRSV, which I suspect you used here, is fine much of the time. However, I would agree that it is flawed here in a few ways.
The Hebrew is as follows:
וַיהֹוָה חָפֵץ דַּכְּאוֹ הֶחֱלִי אִם תָּשִׂים אָשָׁם נַפְשׁוֹ יִרְאֶה זֶרַע יַאֲרִיךְ יָמִים וְחֵפֶץ יְהֹוָה בְּיָדוֹ יִצְלָח:
וַיהֹוָה חָפֵץ דַּכְּאוֹ – And God desired to crush him הֶחֱלִי – make him sick. אִם תָּשִׂים אָשָׁם – if you give a guilt offering נַפְשׁוֹ – his soul יִרְאֶה זֶרַע יַאֲרִיךְ יָמִים – he will see seed (children/etc), his days will be made long (long life) וְחֵפֶץ יְהֹוָה בְּיָדוֹ יִצְלָח – And with the will of God in hand, he will prosper
is the writer saying that the suffering servant is to make his life an offering in the same sense of making animal life as an offering for sins as is found in leviticus ? … whatever the hebrew word is behind “offering” is it meant to be taken literal ?
אשם can mean guilt or can refer to a guilt offering. It does not refer to making an offering of a person and very importantly does not have a connector between אשם and נפשו.
The sentence is, in effect, calling for repentance which, by extension, heals the suffering servant – granting him long life and children – rather than him continuing to be in pain due to the problems of society.
what is the reason behind god crushing him?
There is a general thread of God wishing to punish the wicked, but held back by the righteous who are compassionate. This is usually part and parcel with God making it particularly difficult for the righteous who, in effect, are defying the order God desires.
In context I the person is very ill and sick from the beginning. God specifically is making his life harder to create repentance by this individual.
These aren’t typical descriptors which are used to say that someone died, but are quite metaphorical and poetic.
Being cut off from the land of the living could be speaking of exile which plays into the theme of being removed from judgement.
Alternatively, you could connect being cut off from the land of the living with the people’s plague (which you could say “kills” the land).
He was assigned a grave with the wicked
Better rendition: He gave his grave to the wicked and his deaths to the wealthy.
Blogging Theology 
What dictionary is that from?
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I would say that, while the word Haqq carries the meanings as defined above, it not only refers to the truth but to the ULTIMATE TRUTH, as in the one and only unalterable truth both seen and unseen, known and unknown. One could literally write a book on the meaning of the word Haqq, and indeed some have.
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yes, it is a good word;
Jesus is Al Haqq.
عیسی الحق
Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
John 14:6
عیسی الطریق
و الحق و الحیات
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Jesus was a highly revered human prophet sent with a message from the one true God, Al-Haqq.
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He claimed He was the Al-Haqq. الحق
about 600 years before your prophet – John 14:6
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Jesus did not write John- a forger wrote it just like the other three gospels. So no Jesus never claimed alHaqq or any other divine name for himself.
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Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guide the disciples into all the truth. John 14:26; 16:12-13; 15:26
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John 14:6 in Arabic:
قال له يسوع انا هو الطريق والحق والحياة. ليس احد يأتي الى الآب الا بي.
یسوع = عیسی
The Byzantine Greek form closer to the Hebrew, Yoshua
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Translating a forgery into Arabic proves nothing – its still a forgery….only now in Arabic.
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no; not a forgery; but solid truth established 600 years before your prophet came along and made claims.
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Although that saying might be harmonized in Islam, but the question is why we can’t find such a statement in the earliest gospels?
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still 600 years earlier than Islam!
boom!
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“600 years earlier.” Over and over, like that’s a valid argument.
Here, this rotten apple is quite a bit older than my fresh one. Enjoy.
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older manuscript is different than an older apple. 😉
historical ancient evidence is not comparable to edible food.
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LOL
That winky face leads me to believe you thought that passed for a clever reply; what actually passed (far over your head) was my point.
So smart guy, does the fact that some information got written down earlier than other information make it more true?
Does a rotten apple being older than a fresh one make it more edible?
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the gospel of John was established and testified to by many ancient manuscripts, the earliest going back to 120 AD, and for 5 more centuries, became the most beloved gospel of the 4 among the “people of the gospel”. Even the earliest biographer of Muhammad’s life, Ibn Ishaq, wrote that John’s gospel was true.
The fact that Muslim’s try to say that John 14:26 and 16:13 is about Muhammad is funny; as there are no textual variants to give any evidence of any change from “periklutos” περικλυτος to paraklaetos παρακλητος . And a “Holy Spirit” cannot be a human. But you are forced to try and find Muhammad somewhere, because of the verse, Surah 7:157 and 61:6.
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2013/05/31/earliest-islamic-biographer-of-muhammads-life-affirms-that-john-the-apostle-of-jesus-and-eyewitness-of-the-crucifixion-and-resurrection-was-the-human-writer-of-the-fourth-gospel/
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To all of that point-dodging waffle I say:
“So?”
😂
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The truth is that your “Absolute truth” has a God. The truth is your “Absolute truth” was a unitarian – only the “Father” is his God.
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“and the Word was God” (by nature, substance, essence)
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> > still 600 years earlier than Islam!
> > boom!
Getting a little too excited there?
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Yes, valid argument, since the argument was “why is it (John 14:6) not in older gospels?” (Mark and Matthew, and Luke) They are all from first century, between 45 AD – 80 or 90 AD. Mark, Matthew and Luke pre-70 AD.
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“still 600 years earlier than Islam!”
what does it mean “earlier” ? if “earlier” is your way of finding the truth, then i have a suggestion for you. look up the greek word “the truth” and then search all the predecessors of jesus who called themselves “the truth”
bart writes :
Notice what is said of Demetrius. He is one of the “greatest gods,” the son of God” (specifically of the gods Poseidon and Aphrodite), one who is “near” his own people – not remote, off on Mount Olympus, the one who “brings peace,” who can be called “Lord.”
These ascriptions to Demetrius should sound familiar to anyone who knows about early Christianity, where Jesus too was known as the incarnation of a divine being, the Son of God, the bringer of peace, the Lord, and God in the flesh. My ultimate point: Jesus was not the first to be called such things, or thought to be a kind of incarnation of the divine. He had predecessors.
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ليس احد يأتي الى الآب الا بي
not required
قَرِيبٌ هُوَ اللهُ لِكُلِّ مَنْ يَدعُوهُ،
لِلَّذِينَ بِإخلاصٍ يَدعُونَهُ.
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17وفيما هو خارج الى الطريق ركض واحد وجثا له وسأله ايها المعلّم الصالح ماذا اعمل لارث الحياة الابدية. 18فقال له يسوع لماذا تدعوني صالحا. ليس احد صالحا الا واحد وهو الله
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Ken,
Can you read that one? It disproves your point.
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I can’t believe how contradictory john is to this verse. Reading it in Arabic makes it even more clear jeesus was just a human.
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I can’t believe Arab nasarah read this and can’t see the clear cut contradictions.
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Your spin on those verses has been long refuted here.
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2013/09/02/no-muslim-can-deal-with-mark-1023-27/
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more refutation
http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2012/08/muslims-favorite-conservative-scholar.html
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your boat got rocked on that verse .
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actually, my 2 articles made waves and crashed Muslim’s boat of bad argumentation on Mark 10:17-18. Your boat was demolished and you had to swim for shore.
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“Mark 10:17-18”
As Jesus started on His way, a man ran up and knelt before Him. “Good Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call Me good? Jesus replied, “No one is good except God alone. (Mark 18:17-18)
Then a certain ruler asked Him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call Me good? Jesus replied. “No one is good except God alone. (Luke 18:18-19)
Just then, a man came up to Jesus and inquired, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to obtain eternal life?” “Why do you ask Me about what is good?” Jesus replied, “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” (Matthew 19: 16-17)
yeah man, your boat has sunk and you been “sharked”
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Jesus is saying, “if you recognize Me as good; then you have to realize that I am God also; since only God is good.”
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jesus loved the guy and the guy stop calling him “good”
disgusting twisting of plain words. i am sure no aramaic speaking jew would have deceived rich man like you pagans deceive each other. i am begining to think you believe that jesus was probably a canaanite diety.
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No – he is denying he is even good let alone God!
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“if you recognize Me as good; then you have to realize that I am God also; since only God is good.”
you believe 3 gods = 1
you believe god needs blood
you believe 27 books were in jesus’ mind
you believe that when the rich man stop calling jesus “good” this meant he recognised jesus was not “god”
you believe jesus was a bad communicator
you believe 4 different gospels are saying the same thing
there is no more hope left for you.
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One God in 3 persons is not “3 gods”
Your god thought Mary was part of the Trinity; that the Trinity was “Father, Son, and Mother” – Surah 5:116; 5:72-75
God doesn’t “need” blood; but His holiness and wrath demand justice against sin. Your god makes light of sin.
Your god denies real history. (Surah 4:157)
Your god makes light of justice. Maybe that is why there are so many honor killings and anger and violence in the greater Muslim world – there is no satisfaction of justice in Islamic culture. No one has assurance of peace or salvation; and that lack drives some to do suicide bombings and terrorism.
The cross was where justice was satisfied, therefore, forgiveness and peace is possible.
27 books of NT – Yes, Jesus said “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. And when the Spirit of truth comes, He will lead you into all the truth . . . ” John 16:12-13
4 gospels are from 4 corners/angels/perspectives looking at one true historical event – life of Isa Al Masih, like 4 witnesses of a car accident, one witness on each corner.
True peace (John 14:27)and true love (Romans 5:8) and truth (John 14:6) results in real hope. (Romans 5:5; 1 Peter 1:3-5)
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“One God in 3 persons is not “3 gods””
Why not. Why is one divine nature in 3 persons is not 3 gods?
Because you insist it isn’t? Not convincing.
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I am not alone; all Christian history testifies to this truth. early church, Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, and Protestantism – all agreed on the Trinity.
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Ken you are reading something into the text that is not there. There is nothing in Mark 18:17-18; Luke 18:18-19; Matthew 19: 16-17 to indicate that Jesus is saying he is God.
Interestingly, if Atonement by the Cross is necessary for salvation, then why didn’t Jesus (as) say THAT
instead of THIS:
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
Christians have broken the first commandment by taking Jesus as a Greco Roman man God while denying the One True God his right of exclusive worship. Through Paul’s licentious Gospel of Freedom from the Law, the Christians have thrown out the rest of the commandments and are a lawless community. Meanwhile, Muslims worship the One True God in purity without associates, and also keep the commandments of the law.
Therefore, according to Prophet Jesus (as), in regard to eternal life and obedience to the commandments:
1- Christians will NOT have eternal life and salvation.
2- Muslims will receive eternal life and salvation.
ShukrAllahu al-Haqq!!!
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You have to keep the reading after Jesus said, “keep the commandments” – the point is that no one could, and Jesus confessed this about sinful humans – “with man, this is impossible”, but not with God, – God is able to save people, but they have to realize they cannot save themselves by their own efforts or obedience and realize they are lost sinners without hope and that they need to turn to Christ to save them.
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keep reading and thinking
Mark 10:17-27
17 As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. 19 You know the commandments, ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’” 20 And he said to Him, “Teacher, I have kept all these things from my youth up.” 21 Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, “One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 22 But at these words he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property.
23 And Jesus, looking around, said to His disciples, “How hard it will be for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God!” 24 The disciples were amazed at His words. But Jesus answered again and said to them, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 26 They were even more astonished and said to Him, “ Then who can be saved?” 27 Looking at them, Jesus said, “With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.”
Jesus, in Mark 10:27, teaches that men/man-kind/people (ανθρωποις – plural – men, people. Anthropois = where we get “Anthropology” from – “the study of mankind” ) cannot save themselves by good works or by their efforts or giving to the poor. Jesus says it is “impossible” (αδυνατον). This is consistent with the writings of the apostle Paul (Galatians 2:16; 2:21; the whole book and argument of Galatians; Romans 3:28; 4:1-16; 5:1-11; Philippians 3:9; Ephesians 2:8-9), and the apostle John (John 1:12; 3:15-16; 5:24; 6:29; 8:24; 11:25; 20:30-31) “with men it is impossible” – no one can saved themselves by their own efforts or good works, “but not with God, for all things are possible with God.” The whole NT message is that God saves people by His grace alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), through faith alone (Romans 4:1-16), in Christ alone. (John 3:18; 3:36; 14:6, Acts 4:12; Romans 10:13-15).
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Keep reading all the way – the text leads to Mark 10:45 – “the Son of Man came . . . to serve and to give His life a ransom for many” – points to the cross and atonement.
The details of Mark chapters 14, 15, and 16:1-8 all point to the atonement on the cross, and the resurrection/ empty tomb proved it.
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“I am not alone; all Christian history testifies to this truth. early church, Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, and Protestantism – all agreed on the Trinity.”
Tempel that’s no reason. Give me a reason why is one divine nature in 3 persons is not 3 gods?
I see you cannot live up to the most important commandment according to the Biblical Jesus.
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Because there is only one God. God is one, Mark 12:29; 1 Timothy 2:5
Monotheism and the 3 persons interacting with each other in the NT forced the doctrine of the Trinitas Unitas to be “one God in three persons”
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Ken,
We should keep Commandments and give away our possessions. I see that there is nothing about Jesus saying he came to die upon cross and be resurrected in order to give us salvation. Question: Have you given away everything you have in your possession, I think you still have a computer at least in your possession right? Give your computer away that you may achieve salvation!!
In regard to 27 – Jesus said, “With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.” That is the point of the post which Paul Williams made here https://bloggingtheology.net/2016/11/21/25170/
Where he wrote the following:
The Muslim must recognize and be aware that it is ultimately only by Allah’s mercy that one will enter paradise:
The Prophet (peace be upon him) said,
“Do good deeds properly, sincerely and moderately, and receive good news because one’s good deeds will NOT make him enter Paradise.” They asked, “Even you, O Allah’s Apostle?” He said, “Even I, unless and until Allah bestows His pardon and Mercy on me.”
So here we see that it’s not by one’s good deeds that one will enter paradise but by Allah’s Mercy. However, Allah has commanded us to do good deeds and we would not be recipient of His mercy unless we obey His commands.
(Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 8, Book 76, Number 474)
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the command to sell his possessions was only for that one person, in context; and Jesus was testing him. If the man had agreed and submitted, Jesus would probably have said something like, “ok, now you need to keep some in order to live on and take care of your family”, etc. Jesus nor the apostles said that all us have to literally sell everything. But Jesus is saying that you must be willing for God to own all your stuff and you use your possessions for His glory; fight against greed and materialism, work hard, save your money, manage your money, pay your bills, don’t go into debt, etc. give some to the poor and the church, etc.
At least by the Hadith you are making a rational argument. Nevertheless, it seems that Hadith is over the Qur’an, which says over and over, “whoever believes in Allah and does good works” , allah will accept (basically). But Islamic theology teaches you to add, “Enshall’Allah” – if God wills.
Others were arguing against Hadith, now you are putting Hadith above Qur’an. Confusing.
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This Muslim admitted that the Hadith is in contradiction to the Qur’an. Same guy who argued Qur’an over Hadith in other articles. Interesting. there is no way for a non-Muslim to know for sure what your religion teaches.
https://bloggingtheology.net/2016/11/21/25170/#comment-32005
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Proper teaching on handling money, finances and giving.
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2013/04/11/proper-teaching-on-money-finances-and-giving-in-rebuke-of-the-word-faith-system/
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quote:
the command to sell his possessions was only for that one person, in context; and Jesus was testing him. If the man had agreed and submitted, Jesus would probably have said something like, “ok, now you need to keep some in order to live on and take care of your family”, etc. Jesus nor the apostles said that all us have to literally sell everything. But Jesus is saying that you must be willing for God to own all your stuff and you use your possessions for His glory; fight against greed and materialism, work hard, save your money, manage your money, pay your bills, don’t go into debt, etc. give some to the poor and the church, etc.
sorry, jesus was homeless preacher. he told his disciples to abandon their families and suffer on the streets.
http://vridar.org/2015/07/25/hector-avalos-responds-to-robert-myles-review-of-the-bad-jesus/
http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/dr-robert-myles-and-bad-jesus.html
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Ken,
“Jesus would probably have said something like….” Again you are reading into the text that is not there.
The Qur’an exhorts us to believe in God and do good works, charity, kindness, mercy on others, etc. At the same time it is recognized that Salvation ultimately does not come from man and his deeds, but through the mercy of Allah. The Qur’an says “Inna Allaha kulli shay’in Qadeer” (Verily with Allah all things are possible) which is similar to what you quoted Jesus as saying “… for all things are possible with God.” And yes, all things are possible if God wills (Inshallah). This is said respectfully, but does not mean that Muslims are unsure of their own salvation, for Salvation and the Gardens of Paradise have been promised to the true believer in the Qur’an while no similar Guarantee is made using the word “promise” in Bible. According to the Qur’an AND Jesus Salvation Comes from God NOT through any belief in a man God, or through licentious Gospel of freedom from law and a lazy faith based redemption.
I am sure that you realize that a majority of Muslims will agree that Qur’an is superior to Hadeeth, they do not agree with all of “FOPM” views and opinions on Hadeeth.
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Ken,
We don’t take our guidance from your outdated theology, the false and forged NT, or your biased Christian apologetics blog
We take our Guidance from book of Allahu Al-Haqq, – Al-Qur’an – wherein we read the Haqq!! And that is enough for us!
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that is your freedom and choice. If only the greater political Muslim world allow people the freedom to investigate other religions and freedom to choose other religions and freedom to respectfully criticize Islam. You have to ask yourself what are they afraid of?
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at least the west allows the freedom to choose.
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Ken Temple
November 29, 2016 • 5:58 pm
that is your freedom and choice. If only the greater political Muslim world allow people the freedom to investigate other religions and freedom to choose other religions and freedom to respectfully criticize Islam. You have to ask yourself what are they afraid of?
Ken Temple
November 29, 2016 • 5:58 pm
at least the west allows the freedom to choose
I say;
Ken Temple, you are not telling the truth and forgetting that, the truth is there for anyone to see. The Christians west never allowed freedom of religion until forced on them when the liberals defeated them. They (Christians) think their feelings/experience means they are the truth forgetting that Idol worshipers have experience/feelings too.
They will disguise themselves as Muslims using a site like a Muslim site to distort Islam as Paul of Tarsus advised them to do. These type of thinking will not allow any religion when in power and the history shows.
There is proof non Muslims are still in Muslim majority lands as indigenous and Christians are still in the isis territories when captured there are Christians there.
The Christian rule did not allow any religion until beaten up and forced by the liberal west. Now they voted for Trump to ban all Muslims.
Thanks.
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“Yes, valid argument, since the argument was “why is it (John 14:6) not in older gospels?” (Mark and Matthew, and Luke) They are all from first century, between 45 AD – 80 or 90 AD. Mark, Matthew and Luke pre-70 AD.”
johns jesus has been put on protein shakes. only you are unable to see this.
john seems to be a modalist too
not only that
he seems to have divinized the flesh of jesus lol
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“and the Word was God” (by nature, substance, essence)
That’s two Gods then. Big one ist the God of the smaller one.
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“The Word was a god…”
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“and the Word was God” (by nature, substance, essence)”
in plain english what does “substance” mean? an ingredient?
is jesus an ingredient of god?
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“the Word was a god” = polytheism, since there is only One God.
You committed shirk. estaqfr’Allah
استغفرالله
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Your smaller God has a God. That’s two.
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I did not commit shirk as a do not worship two gods. Sometime Jews called men ‘”God” such as Moses, David, and Melchizedek. John maybe in the same Jewish tradition.
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you said there is another god; that is shirk. There is only one God.
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Moses, in context – “He will be as God” (Exodus 7:1) is not the same as “is God”
Where is David called “God” ?
Psalm 110:1 is about Messiah to come, who is Lord / Yahweh, per Matthew 22:41-45 and Mark 12:35-37 and Luke 20:41-44 (remarkable agreement in all 3 synoptics)
Where is Melchizadek called “God”?
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Stop playing dumb.
“There is only one God” means there is “only one divine nature” in three distinct persons. That’s what your “one God” is.
Sounds like one human nature in Peter Paul and Mary.
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you need to read entire books on the doctrine of the Trinity; it is profound indeed and a glorious truth; that confounds your mind. The beauty and exaltedness of it points to it’s truth. God’s love and truth and protection of Monotheism, at the same time His love and condescension and giving His life for us (Mark 10:45) is Amazing.
https://www.amazon.com/Forgotten-Trinity-James-R-White/dp/1556617259
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Study the doctrine of the Trinity more deeply. Open your mind and pray: “O God, reveal Yourself to me”
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2014/01/18/the-doctrine-of-the-trinity-trinitas-unitas-unitas-trinitas/
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Temple that is so low
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Jesus has the same Divine nature as God the Father.
ذات
جوهر
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Nothing special. “There is only One God” means there is one divine nature.
Peter and Paul have the same human nature as Mary.
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do they have the same mind? if they do then, you have s=f
so in reality you worship 1 person?
since they share “1 god” then jesus is sub category .
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Ken Templehav
You said;
Jesus has the same Divine nature as God the Father.
ذات
I say;
I have the same human nature with you, am I Ken Temple? No
Can I and Ken Temple be counted as 2 human beings? Yes, except that person is a lunatic with no sense that will count me and Ken Temple as one human being to be counted in a national population census as one human being( I and Ken Temple).
National population census will not agree to count me and Ken Temple as one human being who is only and alone. They will say it is wrong and incorrect count of two human beings.
So I and Ken Temple cannot be counted 1 human being who is alone and only.
Ken Temple will argue 2 Gods can be counted as 1 God because they are not human being and God can be 1 being with 3 persons in his scripture.
He cannot get “1 being 3 persons God” in his scriptures but will quote something that is not “1 being 3 persons”
I will counter and quote what God said He is in his scripture
——————————–
“there is no one like Yahweh our God.” Exodus 8:10
“Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35
“Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
“See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
“Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
“You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22
“For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?” 2 Samuel 22:32
“Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
“You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
“O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
“You alone [bad] are Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6
“For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God” Psalm 18:31
“You alone [bad], Lord, are God.” Isaiah 37:20
———————————
and no where “1 being 3 persons God” is found but “God is 1, Only and alone” is in various parts of his(Temple’s) or HIs(God’s) scriptures.
Christians and Trinitarians are worshiping the God they defined themselves and think the feelings/experience they are getting is not from satan.
Idol worshipers define their own gods and get feelings/experience too just like the Trinitarians. Ken, an advise to long time friend. Repent and become a Muslim or in the Day of Judgement we your friends here will see Jesus(Issa) rejects you.
We will say “we told you so”
Thanks.
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I say;
I have the same human nature with you, am I Ken Temple? No
Can I and Ken Temple be counted as 2 human beings? Yes, . . .
The parallel does not follow, since God created millions of human beings; but there is only One God; so your argument fails.
Of course we still believe all those OT verses and they are true and all fit within the doctrine of the Trinity.
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edward
November 29, 2016 • 3:24 pm
do they have the same mind? if they do then, you have s=f
so in reality you worship 1 person?
since they share “1 god” then jesus is sub category
I say;
One mind(Father’s) mind knows the end day and the Son’s mind did not know the end day. It sounds like 2 persons 2 minded God or 3 persons 3 minded God to me.
Yet Christians like Ken Temple will say they have the same attributes. Having different attributes makes them different beings/persons.
I cannot be the same being knowing something and not knowing the same thing at the same time. It is an impossibility.
Thanks.
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Ken Temple
November 29, 2016 • 4:31 pm
I say;
I have the same human nature with you, am I Ken Temple? No
Can I and Ken Temple be counted as 2 human beings? Yes, . . .
The parallel does not follow, since God created millions of human beings; but there is only One God; so your argument fails
I say;
“The parallel does not follow, since God created millions of human being but there is only One God;” – Ken Temple.
Answer me. Are you saying God the Father is not God? Jesus Christ(Son) is not God?
If they are Gods, then the parallel follow.
God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit
Are you saying there is 4 persons 1 God?
5 persons 1 God? etc.
If you do not believe in 4 persons 1 God, then God created other persons as God as well because we have other persons as Gods and can be counted together with your Gods.
If it is possible to have more than one persons as God, how do you know that God did not reveal himself to other people at a particular point in time in creation?
Your scripture? You are not the only one who has a scripture. Other people have scripture too and God has revealed Himself as God to them.
The Greeks and Roman pagans has God revealing himself to them, so there is parallel with what I said.
Thanks.
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that is why the doctrine of the Trinity is “One God by substance/being/essence” in three persons.” It protects Monotheism and reveals God’s love in eternal Spiritual relationship.
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Your scripture? You are not the only one who has a scripture. Other people have scripture too and God has revealed Himself as God to them.
But only the Bible is God-breathed. 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:19-21; John 17:17
Yours and no one else’s (Hindus, Buddhists, pagans, Greek mythology, etc.) is NOT God-breathed, not inspired. Yours is a man-made book.
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quote :
One God in 3 persons is not “3 gods”
3 separate conscious pagan gods who share “1 god” and do action VERBS to each other.
in any ones mind, that is 3 separate conscious gods.
“Your god thought Mary was part of the Trinity; that the Trinity was “Father, Son, and Mother” – Surah 5:116; 5:72-75”
nowhere does it say they are “one”
mary is given supernatural abilities and is deified
bart ehrman says jews were deifying humans
interesting that quran did not say she and her son became CO-EQUAL
“God doesn’t “need” blood; but His holiness and wrath demand justice against sin. Your god makes light of sin.”
your
gods “holiness” needs blood
“Your god denies real history. (Surah 4:157)”
nobody can trust anything in the gospels. we don’t know if the beating jesus received came from isaiah 53 or from “eyewitnesses”
we don’t know the sources.
we do know that christians exaggerated like they exaggerated by making jesus’ burial more honourable.
nobody witnessed jesus leave empty tomb
nobody even knows if it was a public execution .
matthew places eyewitnesses at the resurrection of the many saints , but just because he writes like that , it does not mean fiction has history to it
”
Your god makes light of justice. Maybe that is why there are so many honor killings and anger and violence in the greater Muslim world – there is no satisfaction of justice in Islamic culture.”
the father in trinity honour was disrespected, so he kills his kid.
honour
ˈɒnə/Submit
noun
1.
high respect; great esteem.
“his portrait hangs in the place of honour”
synonyms: distinction, privilege, glory, tribute, kudos, cachet, prestige, fame, renown, merit, credit, importance, illustriousness, notability; More
2.
the quality of knowing and doing what is morally right.
so trinity has honour killing within it .
”
No one has assurance of peace or salvation; and that lack drives some to do suicide bombings and terrorism.”
neither do you know what will happen to you tomorrow.
”
The cross was where justice was satisfied, therefore, forgiveness and peace is possible.”
greeks, aztecs, egyptians, hebrews and others thought a violent bloody go between was requirement to bring “forgiveness” and “peace”
“27 books of NT – Yes, Jesus said “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. And when the Spirit of truth comes, He will lead you into all the truth . . . ” John 16:12-13″
the christians in acts could not quote one word from jesus to justify their practices. maybe jesus made a mistake in keeping silent on jewish rituals?
”
4 gospels are from 4 corners/angels/perspectives looking at one true historical event – life of Isa Al Masih, like 4 witnesses of a car accident, one witness on each corner.”
witnesses in a car accident need to be separated because of CONTAMINATION and other problems.
if “witnesses” were so good we would not need any other evidence, we would convict or release.
you are a pagan
”
True peace (John 14:27)and true love (Romans 5:8) and truth (John 14:6) results in real hope. (Romans 5:5; 1 Peter 1:3-5)”
true peace comes when you ASK God without bloody go between, jesus, budda , idols etc
not needed.
i quote
Jeremiah 2:5New International Version (NIV)
5 This is what the Lord says:
“What fault did your ancestors find in me,
that they strayed so far from me?
They followed worthless idols
and became worthless themselves.
quoting jewish commentary on this
In Jeremiah’s days there were Jews who strayed after idols and God asked them; “what flaw did you find in Me?” (Jeremiah 2:5). God asks Israel; what were you missing in your worship of Me? What joy did you not find in your relationship with Me? And this is the question that the Jew asks the Church. Why do we need Jesus? What does Jesus have to offer to us that God didn’t already give us? What will we find in Jesus that we don’t have in God? What are we missing when we love God as David did before us? What can we be missing? Can you add anything on to God?
end quote
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it seems that christians need to assume that each person in trinity is disabled and without being i.e he is beingless.
it is like sarah, tom and steve are just 3 consciousnesses without any body.
what christians seem to be doings is that they are plugging in 3 consciousnesses into same eyes, ears, nose etc
so they make sarah, steve and tom 1 person
but then they have 3 of them working for each other
so now they have to create separation and give each eyes, nose and ears
and will of its own in order to exercise the will of the leader.
this is a very messy religion and is doomed to hell
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what is worse is that sarah is FULLY aware and conscious of steve and the other person
it doesn’t matter if sarah says
“hey steve i know what is in your mind and what you see and think”
steve says
“hey sarah i know your mind too ”
what we have are separate minds even if they know each others minds. the separate knowledge created in each will create another person /mind.
christians worship 3 gods.
this cannot be denied. they worship 3 gods. 3 gods. 3 gods. i will say it 1 million times they worship 3 gods.
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Ken Temple
November 29, 2016 • 4:31 pm
I say;
I have the same human nature with you, am I Ken Temple? No
Can I and Ken Temple be counted as 2 human beings? Yes, . . .
===============
Ken Temple
November 29, 2016 • 4:31 pm
I say;
I have the same human nature with you, am I Ken Temple? No
Can I and Ken Temple be counted as 2 human beings? Yes, . . .
The parallel does not follow, since God created millions of human beings; but there is only One God; so your argument fails
===============
I say;
“The parallel does not follow, since God created millions of human being but there is only One God;” – Ken Temple.
Answer me. Are you saying God the Father is not God? Jesus Christ(Son) is not God?
If they are Gods, then the parallel follow.
God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit
Are you saying there is 4 persons 1 God?
5 persons 1 God? etc.
If you do not believe in 4 persons 1 God, then God created other persons as God as well because we have other persons as Gods and can be counted together with your Gods.
If it is possible to have more than one persons as God, how do you know that God did not reveal himself to other people at a particular point in time in creation?
Your scripture? You are not the only one who has a scripture. Other people have scripture too and God has revealed Himself as God to them.
The Greeks and Roman pagans has God revealing himself to them, so there is parallel with what I said.
Thanks
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Not comprehendible.
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Ken Temple
November 29, 2016 • 4:31 pm
I say;
I have the same human nature with you, am I Ken Temple? No
Can I and Ken Temple be counted as 2 human beings? Yes, . . .
The parallel does not follow, since God created millions of human beings; but there is only One God; so your argument fails
I say;
Ken Temple who believes God can generate/create another God i.e. God the Father generating/creating God the Son and of course can be counted like me and Ken and he is saying there is no parallel because God is one.
If God is one, why add 3 persons to Him and not 4 persons, why not 30 persons? Your scripture said God is “3 persons 1 being” is not found in your whole scripture. God is one is found several times in your scripture.
Did God create the 3 persons? God created millions of human beings(persons of course). God is one, did he create 3 persons as God?
Where in your scripture does it say “God is 3 persons 1 being God”? Some people have in their scriptures persons as God and so you believe more than one persons can be God and you are not the only one with scripture. You do not know whether at a certain point in creation God has revealed Himself to other people and they are telling you that God revealed Himself as a person to them. So the parallel passed that I can count persons Gods from Greek/Roman pagan Goddess of sex to Haile Selaissie, Sai Baba and other creatures like cow-gods.
Thanks.
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quote:
that is why the doctrine of the Trinity is “One God by substance/being/essence” in three persons.” It protects Monotheism and reveals God’s love in eternal Spiritual relationship.
do you worship 1 conscious god + 3 conscious persons?
when you pray to yhwh, do you think of 3 conscious persons ?
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when each is loving the other or making love to the other persons, what is it using? divine nature? how much? is each person firing back the same divine nature? is each person making full love on the other? love is an action. is the father using 100% divine nature to perform action on the son?
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how is it possible that christians are monotheists ? there god is a group of persons. there is a boss and managed persons. there are actions between each. god is like a company . james white says “council”
they each “share”
“fully ”
the separate knowledge of what they share creates a separate person.
how is it possible they are worshippers of one god? their god is a company .
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So the parallel passed that I can count persons Gods from Greek/Roman pagan Goddess of sex to Haile Selaissie, Sai Baba and other creatures like cow-gods.
I feel good that I can keep getting you to keep repeating that like Pavlov’s dog.
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Ken,
Your responses to us are repetitive as well. Do you have a list of responses that you just copy and paste into the com box in different sequences?
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Truth never changes.
But “intellect”‘s rants and repeated goofy stuff like Sai baba and monkey gods and Hale Salassee has no logical parallel, since the other Scriptures about God is one is also true for us.
At least I answer with solid theology, sound reasoning, and Scripture verses.
Since we both agree on Monotheism, “Intellect” should stop the goofy Monkey -god and Hindu pagan and Halle Salassee nutty stuff.
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“But “intellect”‘s rants and repeated goofy stuff like Sai baba and monkey gods and Hale Salassee has no logical parallel, since the other Scriptures about God is one is also true for us.”
your god took on the form of a jew, why not the listed person in the quote above?
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Because it is revelation; God-breathed Revelation. Do you have racial hatred for the Jews? seems like you do.
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“Monotheism and the 3 persons interacting with each other in the NT forced the doctrine of the Trinitas Unitas to be “one God in three persons””
you just separated them when you are attributing to each self consciousness , self action / self ability.
i see 3 gods. 3 beings. 3 pagan gods.
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Ephesians 1:18
May God open the eyes of your heart . . .
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he did, that’s why i know you worship 3 gods since i was 5.
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you are free to continue in your delusion
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if proving to you 3 gods is not 1 = “delusion” then you call it “delusion” all you want.
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2000 years of Christian theology has defined the Trinitas Unitas as “One God in 3 persons”, based on the NT Scriptures. You accuse us of “3 gods”, but it is not fair of you, since the doctrine itself clearly states, “one God”
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Ken,
May Allah Guide you to the straight path (Islam) (Qur’an 1:6)
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Ken Temple
November 29, 2016 • 5:17 pm
Not comprehendible
I say;
Let me make it comprehensible for you.
God the Father. Can you say God the Father is God? or not?
God the Son. Can you say God the Son is God? or not?
If they are Gods, then my parallel of comparing me and you passed. If you cannot answer, my parallel of comparing me and you counted as 2 beings stands and counting 2 gods is counting 2 beings and it is polytheism.
So, once again
Is Jesus God? one God
Is the Father who is not Jesus God? another God
So, the parallel between me and you stands. The Father generated/created the Son-Ken Temple
God created millions of human beings and God created/generated 2 or 1 Gods to Himself and make them 3.
Thanks.
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brother intellect, everything you wrote is understandable .
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ken wrote:
the command to sell his possessions was only for that one person, in context; and Jesus was testing him. If the man had agreed and submitted, Jesus would probably have said something like, “ok, now you need to keep some in order to live on and take care of your family”, etc. Jesus nor the apostles said that all us have to literally sell everything. But Jesus is saying that you must be willing for God to own all your stuff and you use your possessions for His glory; fight against greed and materialism, work hard, save your money, manage your money, pay your bills, don’t go into debt, etc. give some to the poor and the church, etc.
here is an interesting tafseer :
First, it is curious that Jesus refers to following him as “taking up the cross” at a time before he is supposed to have died on a cross. If we are to assume Jesus knew about crucifixion before his own death, then he was apparently characterizing one’s following of him with severe persecution and death…which is a very far cry from anything experienced by modern-day Christians. Today’s Christians do not believe that following Jesus involves a serious sacrifice of one’s life, the way “take up your cross” would have been understood by Jesus’ original hearers in the first century, so “take up your cross” only increases the legalism of his gospel message. You don’t just “accept Jesus”, you have to live a life which constitutes taking up your “cross”, and you also have to follow the commandments.
Second, if we are to accept Jesus at his word, then when he said the rich man lacked one thing, we are not permitted to say he lacked two things. In context, the one thing he lacked was obedience to the commandment to love his neighbor as himself, which would require that he contribute to helping the poor (Leviticus 19:18). Since that qualifies as “one thing”, then apparently the second part of Jesus’ answer “come and follow me” is more or less an afterthought, an invitation to do something that might be a good idea, but which is not essential. Yes, Jesus did indeed teach that entry into the kingdom of God could be achieved simply by following the law, Matthew 5:19, so Christians who say Jesus thought following him was essential to salvation, are not appreciating his original legalistic teaching.
It needs to be emphasized that when Jesus said that man lacked “one thing”, Jesus contradicts Paul. Paul taught that everybody is sinful all day, every day, Romans 3:19-20. Paul would never have said that any certain person’s obedience to Mosaic law lacked “one thing”. On the other hand, if Jesus knew that the rich man lacked many things in his attempted obedience to Mosaic law, he would not have characterized such omissions as “one” thing. The problem therefore is that Jesus certainly disagreed with Paul and believed that a human being was capable of correctly obeying the full Mosaic Law. Luke agrees that sinners can obey the law to such a degree that God views them righteous for no other reason except their obedience to Mosaic Law, see Luke 1:5-6.
Third, first-century persecution of the Jews was usually for a reason other than their mere following of their own law, since of course despite being under Roman occupation at the time, Rome did not forbid them from practicing their religion.
Fourth, Jesus’ statement “take up your cross and follow me” is too ambiguous even in context to permit certitude about the details of what he meant, but since Jews were not singled out for persecution simply because they practiced Judaism, Jesus appears to be associating the choice to follow him with great hardship. I don’t think Jesus said this at all, I think it is Mark or somebody else who is currently enduring persecution in the late second century, and having Jesus associate such suffering with true followers would have been a comfort to Christians of that day.
Fifth, I see nothing in the context to indicate that “take up your cross and follow me” has anything to do with the issue of Jesus himself dying on a cross or one’s belief thereto.
Sixth, the apologist you quoted appears to have missed the point Jesus was making: You cannot follow Jesus unless you follow all of the commandments and live a life that constitutes taking up a “cross” (or enduring hardship). Therefore any Christian preaching that marginalizes one’s need to follow the Mosaic law, is contrary to the original gospel of Jesus.
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at least that Tafseer you cut and pasted is good English.
But it fails to take into account the historical context that the Romans were already crucifying people, so Jesus’ statement is understood; and He predicted His own arrest, trials, crucifixion, death and resurrection several times from Matthew 16 onward and Mark 9 onward.
That Tafseer also fails to take into account lots of other Scripture and teaching on principles of how we are to handle our financial possessions.
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you think your shitty english is good?
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“and He predicted His own arrest, trials, crucifixion, death and resurrection several times from Matthew 16 onward and Mark 9 onward.”
quote:
Well the Gospels are apologetics for the crucifixion, so they do not, in themselves, have overt clues that Jesus did *not* predict his own death. They are attempts at explanations after the fact. The reasons it is thought to be unlikely that Jesus predicted his own death and resurrection (aside from the fact that most sane people do not intentionally seek out one of the most brutal and agonizing forms of execution in history) is that there was no pre-Christian expectation that the Messiah was supposed to do that. It would have made no sense within the religious or historical context of Jesus and the disciples for a Messianic aspirant to say he would die. The notion of a Messiah dying for people’s sins was a Christian redefinition of the Messiah built around a need to explain the crucifixion
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Ken,
Sorry but Jesus did not “predict His own arrest, trials, crucifixion, death and resurrection several times.” The Gospels were written by unknown pseudepigraphal authors who were writing about the events after the fact. So we don’t actually have proof of Jesus predicting anything, rather what we have is a forged account written long after Jesus had left us, putting words into is mouth about events which had already occurred, in an effort to raise and exalt the status of Jesus by alleging that he predicted his own demise.
And yet, there is still no verse where these unknown authors wrote that Jesus said “I have come to die on the cross for your salvation.”
Where is the Haqq in the NT?? I don’t see it.
But I do see the Haqq in the Qur’an!
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Ya akhi Edward,
Your replies and comments are Good. But don’t lose the benefits and reward by using foul language. Please maintain the proper Adab and “argue with them in the best of manners” (Qur’an 16:125). This is what Allah and his Prophet ask from us.
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the Son / the Word is eternal. John 1:1; John 17:5
eternal with the Father always in eternity past.
The Holy Spirit is eternal also.
One God from all eternity, in 3 persons. They were never without each other.
God is Love. Lover, Beloved, Love . . . spiritual, not physical – estaqfr’allah.
So your argumentation does not follow.
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Intellect
November 29, 2016 • 5:41 pm
Ken Temple
November 29, 2016 • 5:17 pm
Not comprehendible
I say;
Let me make it comprehensible for you.
God the Father. Can you say God the Father is God? or not?
God the Son. Can you say God the Son is God? or not?
If they are Gods, then my parallel of comparing me and you passed. If you cannot answer, my parallel of comparing me and you counted as 2 beings stands and counting 2 gods is counting 2 beings and it is polytheism.
So, once again
Is Jesus God? one God
Is the Father who is not Jesus God? another God
So, the parallel between me and you stands. The Father generated/created the Son-Ken Temple
God created millions of human beings and God created/generated 2 or 1 Gods to Himself and make them 3.
Thanks
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quote :
the Son / the Word is eternal. John 1:1; John 17:5
eternal with the Father always in eternity past.
The Holy Spirit is eternal also.
One God from all eternity, in 3 persons. They were never without each other.
God is Love. Lover, Beloved, Love . . . spiritual, not physical – estaqfr’allah.
So your argumentation does not follow.
end quote
spiritual? when the father does the action of sending the son, is that spiritual or physical? are some actions spiritual and some physical? does the father chat with the son and the son compliment him and receive compliments back?
these 3 gods use “one god ” on each other?
is “one god” OBJECT of PERSONS?
how much of it is used?
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edward wrote:
you think your shitty english is good?
LOL
rolling on the floor laughing
good potty mouth; good witness for Allah, the holy one, who calls you to clean up your dirty mouth
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Salaam Ken,
you have my apology on behalf of brother Edward. We may have polite disagreements, but foul language and insults from either side of the conversation are not beneficial to anyone here.
Salaam
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Thank you Ibn Issam – that was good and respectful and I appreciate it.
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Ibn Issam wrote:
Sorry but Jesus did not “predict His own arrest, trials, crucifixion, death and resurrection several times.” The Gospels were written by unknown pseudepigraphal authors who were writing about the events after the fact.
I understand that argument, based on liberal scholarship, that Muslims use.
Martin Hengel, an eminent scholar, (recently passed away) who I believe even Paul Williams used him at least once at one of his three blogs; wrote (in the quote):
As far as the title (“kata Markov” = according to Mark), Hengel insists that the lack of the smallest shred of any other name for the gospel is important. “The unanimity of testimony to the titles of the Gospels, for which there are still no variants of any kind in this early period, rules out a late origin” (p 66) for the title.
R. T. France has an extended discussion of this issue in his commentary on Mark, on pages 39-40.
France points out that:
“In contrast to this general skepticism, Martin Hengel’s Studies in the Gospel of Mark offers a robust argument for taking the patristic accounts of Mark seriously. Hengel is particularly scornful of the repeated assertion that the gospels are ‘anonymous’ documents, to which the names of authors were conjecturally attached sometime in the second century. his study on the titles of the Gospels argues that as soon as more than one written version of the ευαγγελιον was in circulation some label would be necessary in order to distinguish them, and the only such labels we know are the traditional terms κατα Μαθθαιον, κατα Μαρκον, etc. which are found with remarkable unanimity from as early as we can trace the titles of the books. Hengel points out how improbable it is that a late conjectural attribution could have produced such unanimity and left no trace of alternative attributions. He also quotes Tertullian, Adv. Marcion 4.2.3, as typical of the the view that a ‘gospel’ not bearing the name of its author could not be accepted as authoritative. It is thus altogether improbable that gospel books cold have circulated in the latter part of the first century without titles, and those titles took the form of a statement of authorship. The tradition that Mark was the author of this gospel therefore goes back even earlier than Papias, close to the time of the book’s own composition. ” (R. T. France, The Gospel of Mark, pages 39-40)
A footnote # 80 on page 39 says:
“. . . most modern books (including this commentary) are also ‘anonymous’; it is only on the title page and cover that the author is named. And ancient manuscripts regularly carried titles or colophones which be expected to identify the word contained in them; it was in such titles rather than in the text itself that the author’s name would be found.”
In short, every evidence that we have when we have the title page of the gospels, κατα Μαθθαιον, κατα Μαρκον, Κατα Λυκαν, κατα Ιωαννην (John) are all there, when extant.
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Ken,
Also we weren’t all born like you speaking English as mother tongue so please give us a pass if we make some mistakes. Just try and get the point. Fair enough?
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Fair enough;
I realize that; but sometimes, some here are just not comprehendible and sometimes spelling is not very good. but usually I understand you all. Sometimes Intellect just does not make sense; but I continue to strive to understand what he is saying.
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you are self righteous scum. if a person who had better command of english then you and pointed out to you your grammatical mistakes and then said “at least his english is…”
what would you think? i don’t pretend to know arabic and copy and paste arabic trying to look impressive in front of people. you are self righteous scum bag.
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wow; you didn’t even try to listen to Ibn Issam’s advice. wow
good witness for Allah, you continue to be
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your anger and hatred drips from your keyboard
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edward: watch your language please!
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Actually, I did not cut and paste Arabic, but I typed it out, using Farsi software. The Arabs converted the Iranians to Islam and also converted their script. we have 40 % Arabic words and roots in Farsi / Persian. I learned Farsi fluently and was taught in the Farsi grammar books what the Arabic roots and words are; and also I can add the definite article “The” ال to words.
We these Arabic words in Farsi:
We have “Way” in Farsi – طریق
We have “truth” in Farsi – حق
We have “life” in Farsi – حیاه , but Iranians write it حیات
so, I just added the definite article Al ال to them and typed them out.
الطریق
الحق
الحیات
This also means I can pick out what ever words that we have in Farsi that is in the Qur’an, and that is helpful to know those words and be able to see them in the Arabic Qur’an.
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For example, this verse, Surah 4:171 – almost (not all, but most) every Arabic word here, we also have in Farsi, or the root of it. It feels good to be able to see them and pick them out with understanding.
يَا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ لَا تَغْلُوا فِي دِينِكُمْ وَلَا تَقُولُوا عَلَى اللَّهِ إِلَّا الْحَقَّ ۚ إِنَّمَا الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ وَكَلِمَتُهُ أَلْقَاهَا إِلَىٰ مَرْيَمَ وَرُوحٌ مِّنْهُ ۖ فَآمِنُوا بِاللَّهِ وَرُسُلِهِ ۖ وَلَا تَقُولُوا ثَلَاثَةٌ ۚ انتَهُوا خَيْرًا لَّكُمْ ۚ إِنَّمَا اللَّهُ إِلَٰهٌ وَاحِدٌ ۖ سُبْحَانَهُ أَن يَكُونَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ ۘ لَّهُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ ۗ وَكَفَىٰ بِاللَّهِ وَكِيلًا
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“For example, this verse, Surah 4:171 – almost (not all, but most) every Arabic word here, we also have in Farsi, or the root of it. It feels good to be able to see them and pick them out with understanding.”
okay, gone then, pick them out , and lets see if they SOUND the same and MEAN the same thing. farsi and arabic are two different language. who looks at farsi words to understand an arabic text ? who looks at french words written in english script to understand english language?
“pick them out with understanding” ? what?
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”
It feels good to be able to see them and pick them out with understanding.”
arabic and farsi have two different grammars. it feels good to you to see same words and say “aha i have understanding ” ?
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I have Farsi translations and English also, so it is understandable. All together, looking at all three translations, it is gratifying to learn and see the words and the meanings.
yes, I know the grammar is different. but still, almost every word we have in Farsi has the same meaning in the original Arabic, and I can see the words and roots of words when they come from the Arabic original.
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Ken Temple
November 29, 2016 • 6:26 pm
Fair enough;
I realize that; but sometimes, some here are just not comprehendible and sometimes spelling is not very good. but usually I understand you all. Sometimes Intellect just does not make sense; but I continue to strive to understand what he is saying.
I say;
Show me the mistake I made on this one that you cannot answer.
————————-
Intellect
November 29, 2016 • 5:53 pm
Intellect
November 29, 2016 • 5:41 pm
Ken Temple
November 29, 2016 • 5:17 pm
Not comprehendible
I say;
Let me make it comprehensible for you.
God the Father. Can you say God the Father is God? or not?
God the Son. Can you say God the Son is God? or not?
If they are Gods, then my parallel of comparing me and you passed. If you cannot answer, my parallel of comparing me and you counted as 2 beings stands and counting 2 gods is counting 2 beings and it is polytheism.
So, once again
Is Jesus God? one God
Is the Father who is not Jesus God? another God
So, the parallel between me and you stands. The Father generated/created the Son-Ken Temple
God created millions of human beings and God created/generated 2 or 1 Gods to Himself and make them 3.
Thanks
——————————-
If your theology is not comprehensible, you blame it on poor intellect’s English language.
When you said “Not Comprehendible”, any reader will understand that it is your theology that is not comprehensible and not my English language. We all make mistakes here including you and we all attended American colleges and passed in our English language and communication classes and we all make mistakes, that is why we all use word processing spell check and thesaurus to help us.
Most non college Americans cannot speak English than us. They cannot write English like us and some Muslims who comment here are white English and Americans.
Radical Moderate makes a lot of mistakes here and he is a white man living in America. Do not think some of us do not pass our English language and communication tests in the colleges in USA.
Every reader of blogging theology know that I am using my intellect very well and my English is good but sometimes makes mistakes like anyone else. I just type hurriedly in work to post and get my message across. If I am writing my report, i use spell check and thesaurus. Ken, don’t you use spellcheck and thesaurus?
Thanks.
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” so Jesus’ statement is understood; and He predicted His own arrest, trials, crucifixion, death and resurrection several times from Matthew 16 onward and Mark 9 onward.”
did mark make any future predictions?
did matthew make future predictions?
when mark ran off to the hill he thought jesus was going to come back soon. mark waited and waited and then said “they said nothing to anyone for they were afraid”
mark is writing about his lack of faith in jesus.
you have no proof he predicted his own arrest . he may have got caught off guard and then 40 years later christians said “he knew it all along”
40 years is enough time to make up “predictions ” for your god
after all, they had the ot in front of them and thought he “fulfilled ” ot predictions
jesus did not predict that his father will forsake him
jesus did not know that his human condition will make him beg for the cup to be removed.
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Yes, Jesus predicted His trials, death, and resurrection at least 3 times.
Mark 8:31-38New American Standard Bible (NASB)
31 And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. 32 And He was stating the matter plainly. And Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him. 33 But turning around and seeing His disciples, He rebuked Peter and *said, “Get behind Me, Satan; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s.”
Mark 9:31
31 For He was teaching His disciples and telling them, “The Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill Him; and when He has been killed, He will rise three days later.”
Mark 10:32-34
32 They were on the road going up to Jerusalem, and Jesus was walking on ahead of them; and they were amazed, and those who followed were fearful. And again He took the twelve aside and began to tell them what was going to happen to Him, 33 saying, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered to the chief priests and the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death and will and Him over to the Gentiles. 34 They will mock Him and spit on Him, and scourge Him and kill Him, and three days later He will rise again.”
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mark made the prediction 4 your god lol
john pushed it all the way to baptism
john put it in johns baptist mouth “lamb/animal of god takes away…”
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i’ve read the text. mark uses the same story and then trebles it. it does not prove that we have 3 different occasions.
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“I have Farsi translations and English also, so it is understandable.”
so then farsi becomes useless in all of this.
” All together, looking at all three translations, it is gratifying to learn and see the words and the meanings.”
i was talking about FARSI words.
“yes, I know the grammar is different. but still, almost every word we have in Farsi has the same meaning in the original Arabic, ”
only a christian can say this.
”
and I can see the words and roots of words when they come from the Arabic original. ”
only a christian can say this .
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https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2016/11/29/martin-hengel-and-r-t-france-on-the-gospel-titles-%CE%BA%CE%B1%CF%84%CE%B1-%CE%BC%CE%B1%CE%B8%CE%B8%CE%B1%CE%B9%CE%BF%CE%BD-%CE%BA%CE%B1%CF%84%CE%B1-%CE%BC%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%BA%CE%BF%CE%BD-%CE%BA/
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https://adversusapologetica.wordpress.com/2013/12/17/why-scholars-doubt-the-traditional-authors-of-the-gospels/
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Edward,
Thanks for posting those links which help defend our assertion that Jesus did not actually predict his own demise as Ken wrongly thinks the Gospels prove.
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the article does not interact with Hengel or R. T. France’s points. The author is a flaming atheist and skeptic, from what I can tell. those attacks are nothing new; at least we are not afraid of freedom to criticize; whereas the Muslim world does not allow that kind of freedom; and many who venture out and write those same kinds of things in Muslim world get arrested, loose their jobs, or get hurt or killed.
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“The author is a flaming atheist and skeptic, from what I can tell.”
so, even atheists know what kind of shaydeem you christians are
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what is “shaydeem” ??
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Richard Carrier was banned from his atheists/skeptics group because of his lack of ethics, adulteries, lies, cheating on his wife, later admitting it all; and then she divorced him and he claims that being “polyamorous” is his orientation. He is a shameful person.
http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2015/02/atheism-adultery-polyamory-and-shifting.html
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Ken Temple
November 30, 2016 • 2:03 pm
“Great is the mystery of our religion . . . He who was manifested in the flesh . . . ”
I Timothy 3:16
I say;
Flesh?
Manifested in flesh? Makes your God great?
To your disappointment, he is not the only God who manifested in flesh.
1. Emperor Haile Selassie
2. Sai Baba
3. Cow-Gods
4. Monkeys
etc.
“How do you know that, at a particular point in creation, God did not reveal Himself as a Hindu God?”-Shabbir Ally.
You feel good to call me dog for repeating your creature-God, after you repeat the same thing like Jesus Christ called a woman dog. It is sinfulness to use abusive language like dog to a human being. God is not happy when He is called a creature or created 100% man.
Thanks.
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LOL – like Pavlov’s dog again.
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“The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.”
he was deeply troubled like a human being . before jesus went to the cross, he was kind of in troubled state , but
how come the ping pong love action did not take care of his grief?
this trouble?
lol
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“2. That there is a way to be saved from sin and know it and have assurance of it.”
christian are not saved from sin, they continue to sin and continue to repent and try to be “christ like ” (accept in thier kitchens, unlike jesus, they wash their hands ) christians are finding assurance in their deeds and faith and deceiving people that they trust in the human sacrificial ritual of jeussos.
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we are saved from the eternal guilt of sin that sends people to hell. We have forgiveness and eternal life and assurance of heaven.
We are being saved from the power of sin, but still struggle against it and will be saved at death from the presence of sin.
We still may sin; but God’s love and forgiveness motivates us to confess and repent and grow in holiness.
1 John 1:5-10; 2:1-2
5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;
7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
1 John 2:1-2
1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
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ken , what i see is that christianity allows one to get away with sins. your “repentance” = works/thoughts from “born in sin” sinful individuals. you are allowed to get away with guilt . since your guilt is transferable.
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Read Galatians 5:19-23 and 1 John 1:5-10 and 2:1-2 and a good book that explains the difference between justification and sanctification.
John McArthur’s two books are very good –
“The Gospel According to Jesus”
“The Gospel According to the Apostles”
John Piper’s “Future Grace” is also very good.
Jerry Bridges, “the Discipline of Grace”
R. C. Sproul, “Faith Alone”
James White, “The God Who Justifies”
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all these books are saying that deeds, repentance, etc are all weak and stained. only finite acts of finite creature/god man appease god. one can say
“why didn’t god pay for all sins through his own infinite mercy ?”
why the need to separate himself from flesh?
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ken , who punished the son for all sins? when the son is being punished, is he fully god and fully human?
when the son is being punished is talking to his divine side which is in his body?
when he is being punished , is he supporting himself through his “fully god” side?
in the depths of hell, people will not receive divine support.
does “god the son” support himself when he is being punished on the cross?
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Isaiah 53:6
“. . . The Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him”
Isaiah 53:10
“it pleased the Lord to crush Him, if He would render Himself a guilt offering . . .
Galatians 3:10-13
10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”
11 Now that no one is justified [p]by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.”
12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.”
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”— 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
The Son voluntarily and willing came to be that sacrifice.
John 10:18
“no one takes my life from Me, I lay it down voluntarily on my own initiative, and I take it up again . . . ”
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You don’t understand the difference between justification (Galatians 2:16; Romans 4:1-16; 5:1; Romans 8:33-34 -a point in time at repentance and faith, that is a state of being until death) and sanctification (the process of becoming more and more Christ-like as a result of true justification).
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do the works of jesus allow you to get away with weak repentance, sinful deeds, sinful thoughts etc because you are “born in sin” and “stained with original sin”
yes they do. jesus’ “works” allow christians to get away with sins. the father tolerates christians because he sees the cooling he received from punishing jesus. it is your religion which believe guilt is transferable.
so repentance, deeds etc is nonsense. it makes no sense in your life.
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Hengel and R. T. France’s argumentation is compelling, even with that long liberal skeptical article. (lots of Bart Ehrman, etc. – radical skepticism.)
The fact is, there are no other extant variations on the titles of the gospels.
the fact is, no other claims were made against Matthew, mark, Luke, and john. No one else claimed other authors in all church history.
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“The fact is, there are no other extant variations on the titles of the gospels.”
egg-nog, nut meg , the link discusses about variation in titles.
https://adversusapologetica.wordpress.com/2013/12/17/why-scholars-doubt-the-traditional-authors-of-the-gospels/
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nut-meg tastes good mixed in with a good egg-nog. Merry Christmas to you Edward – I wish you peace and joy and thanks for sending insults at me.
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do you mean “peace and joy” with all thy sincerity or with a bit of anger mixed in ? peace to you too .
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totally sincere in my wish for peace and joy for you, edward, brother in humanity.
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same here brother . i pray one day you will see that 3 persons means 3 gods . with all my heart and sincerity i pray that you come back home to the milla of ibraheem
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thank you for sincere wishes for peace and joy.
We Christians already are children of Abraham.
Galatians 3:6-9
6 Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.
7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.”
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
Galatians 3:13-14 –
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”—
14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Galatians 3:24-29
24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.
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Christians are not children of Abraham.
Neither genealogically nor spiritually.
“They are sons of Satan, the father of lies” The prince of Peace.
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Thanks Abdullah. Except Galatians is revelation from God, through the apostle Paul, written (around 49 AD) some 600 years before your prophet came along. And Jesus Al Masih
عیسی المسیح
Himself taught similar truth also in John 8:31-36 – The Son of God sets us free from sin, by true repentance and faith in Him.
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how does one say “3 gods” in farsi?
ken, maybe farsi will open your mind ?
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سه خدا وجود ندارد، خدا واحد است. فقط یک خدا وجود دارد.
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خدا واحد است
خدا یکتاست
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khudaa. interesting . found in urdu and panjabi. you were mocking my english but i will tell you i am multi lingual. i can speak some swahili also. i tell you the truth , in all the languages 3 means more than 1. and you sir, worship 3 gods.
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three persons is not three gods
سه شخص سه خدا نیست
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“faqat”
“shaqs”
khuda
you worship 3 shaqs . you must understand to arabic speaks and urdu speakers this implies 3 separate persons/individuals. you must acknowledge you worship 3 gods.
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Yes, I know that; but Christian theology defined the persons from the texts of the NT by their interaction with each other – “the Father loves the Son”, “the Son prays to the Father” and “the Spirit testifies to the Son”, etc. – the Greek original in this theology is hupostasis / ‘υποστασις which in Latin, is persona. The English “person” comes from the Latin.
I realize and know what it sounds like. but we have to explain and teach the Scripture verses and the theology that informs it. That is why there is a distinction between “nature”/substance in John 1:1c (the word was God) (same substance) and “person” in John 1:1b (the Word was with God”. There are at least 2 conditions or states in these 2 phrases – one is about nature/substance/essence and the other is about person/personal relationship (face to face, with each other – relational terms.
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how can you prays to “one nature” + 3 ashqaas?
and @ same time all 4 are “alive”
come one man, do you not see 3 gods?
why “lego” the almighty?
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“Great is the mystery of our religion . . . He who was manifested in the flesh . . . ”
I Timothy 3:16
“Great is the LORD and Greatly to be praised, His greatness is unsearchable” Psalm 145:3
God’s nature is unsearchable, unfathomable”
“O the depth of the riches both of wisdom and knowledge of God; how unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!”
Romans 11:33
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God’s greatness, awesomeness, transcendence, depth, mystery is profound. In that sense, Christians can agree that God is the greatest. Allah o Akbar
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at least you said Allah hu akbar.
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“Yes, I know that; but Christian theology defined the persons from the texts of the NT by their interaction with each other – “the Father loves the Son”, “the Son prays to the Father” and “the Spirit testifies to the Son”, etc. ”
why make all the trouble? that you make all this trouble, you confuse everybody. that you need to see action verbs within god implies separate gods.
“I realize and know what it sounds like.”
because in your fitra you know it is 3 gods, but devils inside your mind are not making you accept fitra.
”
but we have to explain and teach the Scripture verses and the theology that informs it. That is why there is a distinction between “nature”/substance in John 1:1c (the word was God) (same substance) and “person” in John 1:1b (the Word was with God”. There are at least 2 conditions or states in these 2 phrases – one is about nature/substance/essence and the other is about person/personal relationship (face to face, with each other – relational terms. ”
i am not clever enough to understand this stuff. how is person interacting with other persons using SAME “one nature” when it is SUBSET?
when jesus is managed by the father or loving or communicating , then each must be using “one nature” but each has separated himself ergo 3 gods.
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Great minds wrestled with the OT and NT texts and explained these things a long time ago –
Ignatius – 107 AD
Justin Martyr – 150 AD
Tertullian – 190-220 AD
Origen (250 AD)
Athanasius – 300-373
Augustine – 354-430 AD
Gregory of Nyssa (332-395 AD)
Gregory of Nazianzus (329-389 AD)
Basil of Caesarea (330-379 AD)
Hillary (310-367 AD)
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most of these (maybe all?) did not say god was trinity.
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Yes most of them did. The first 2 clearly taught the Deity of Christ.
Ignatius did not use the word “triad” or “Trinity”; but clearly called Jesus God about 9 times in his letters.
Justin spoke of the Logos (Word) and Son as God.
All the rest spoke of the Trinitas Unitas (three in One).
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The doctrine of the Trinity demonstrates respect for the Bible, rather than trying to make God simple and understandable.
“If Christianity was something we were making up, of course we could make it easier. But it is not. We cannot compete, in simplicity, with people who are inventing religions. How could we? We are dealing with Fact. Of course anyone can be simple if he has no facts to bother about.”
C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, p. 145. (MacMillan Publishing Company, Inc. New York, 1943, 1945, 1952. (Originally in Beyond Personality: The Christian Idea of God, 1944, p. 19)
“The doctrine of the Trinity was formulated by followers of Jesus Christ to safeguard the good news that in Jesus Christ we encounter God face to face. It was not devised to make God less understandable, or to make God so mysterious that the common people have to depend on clergy and theologians to understand it for them, as the JWs [Jehovah’s Witnesses] charge. Instead, the doctrine of the Trinity was developed out of respect for God’s revelation of Himself. [the Scriptures, OT and NT] The Witnesses’ doctrines about God, Christ, and “holy spirit”, on the other hand, were developed not in order to represent the bible’s teaching more faithfully, but to make God understandable and comprehensible. “
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2011/08/30/man-made-religion-tries-to-make-god-more-understandable/
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now you are going all into hank mode.
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“The choice is therefore between believing in the true God as he has revealed himself, mystery and all, or believing in a God that is relatively simple to understand but bears little resemblance to the true God. Trinitarians are willing to live with a God they cannot fully comprehend. As C. S. Lewis put it:
“If Christianity was something we were making up, of course we could make it easier. But it is not. We cannot compete, in simplicity, with people who are inventing religions. How could we? We are dealing with Fact. Of course anyone can be simple if he has no facts to bother about.”
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ehovah’s Witnesses (Arianism) and Islam are similar in that they reject the doctrine of the Trinity; which demonstrate that they are man made religions, among other problems of many false doctrines. Making God easier to understand demonstrates that these (both Islam and Jehovah’s Witnesses) are man-made religions.
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“making god easier to understand”
okay, maybe 1 person in trinity is not 1 person but consists of many persons?
if 1 can mean 3 and god does not want you to understand one to mean absolute one, then one person in trinity cannot be absolute one since that would be “making god easier to understand”
cheers ken.
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We don’t change our texts or our theology in order to make God easier to understand; we have to trust God to open your heart and give you repentance and faith and then comes understanding. The mystery of God points to the truth of Who He is; since He is so great and above us and yet came down to us and loved us. “Amazing Love! how can it be that Thou my God shouldst die for me? ” Charles Wesley
(he means the eternal Son / word came and died, (“Thou My God shouldst die for Me”), he does not mean the Father died)
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it is like jesus saying to the father
“hey day, today i am going to incarnate”
father asking” how you gonna do that son?”
jesus replying ” well i have access to the same nature you have access to so i’ll use that”
father replying ” well you can’t do that because you’ll cause me to incarnate with you”
jesus ” did you forget we can separate the nature” ?
how is different hierarchy, subordination, levels, ranks created out of the same accessible nature?
how is a boss created out of same nature when each co-equally shares it?
christianity is pagan and no matter how much “scriptural reference” it’s pagans belief cannot be covered.
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“Yes most of them did. The first 2 clearly taught the Deity of Christ.”
this was breed of “trinity” which was not christian trinity
”
Ignatius did not use the word “triad” or “Trinity”; but clearly called Jesus God about 9 times in his letters.”
he had no idea that his “god” consisted of 3 co-equal persons . try again
“Justin spoke of the Logos (Word) and Son as God.”
he had no idea that his “god” consisted of 3 co-equal persons . try again
“All the rest spoke of the Trinitas Unitas (three in One).”
no idea. can’t speak greek.
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Try reading Tertullian “Against Praxaes”, or Athanasius, “On the Incarnation of the Word” or Augustine’s “On the Trinity” – they are available at ccel.org
or some of the Cappadocian fathers (Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory of Nazianzius, Basil of Caesarea)
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Tertullian, Athanasius, Augustine, the Cappadocian fathers are all translated into English.
But James White’s book, The Forgotten Trinity is easier. Or Rob Bowman’s Why You Should believe in the Trinity.
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why are people stealing peoples money to super glue 3 separate gods? don’t they know about judgement day?
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“The Maker of the universe,
As Man for man was made a curse.
The claims of Law which He had made,
Unto the uttermost He paid.
His holy fingers made the bough,
Which grew the thorns that crowned His brow.
The nails that pierced His hands were mined
In secret places He designed.
He made the forest whence there sprung
The tree on which His body hung.
He died upon a cross of wood,
Yet made the hill on which it stood.
The sky that darkened o’er His head,
By Him above the earth was spread.
The sun that hid from Him it’s face
By His decree was poised in space.
The spear which spilled His precious blood
Was tempered in the fires of God.
The grave in which His form was laid
Was hewn in rocks His hands had made.
The throne on which He now appears
Was His from everlasting years.
But a new glory crowns His brow
And every knee to Him shall bow.
The Maker of the Universe”
____________________
I love this song! I love the doctrine and affections and emotion of this song! As Jonathan Edwards would say, “I love the sound doctrine that produces right affections and emotions.” It captures the truths of the incarnation, the Deity of Christ, His humility and love and willingness to suffer for us. The incarnation and suffering of the eternal Son of God points to the Trinity, “trinitas in unitas”, “three in one”, as Tertullian wrote. In Against Praxeas, chapter 3.
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you seem to be worshipping his humanity more than his “deity”
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John 1:18
John 1:18New American Standard Bible (NASB)
18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
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The second person, the eternal Son, the eternal Word (John 1:1-5), became a human (john 1:14; Philippians 2:5-8), took on a human nature and demonstrated His love and truth to us. (Romans 5:8) Amazing love and truth!!
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3 gods bro. just add in vishnu, prabhu and shiva and say they all do “one will”
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God Himself is beautiful because of the perfection of His character and attributes and nature; and the David spoke of “mediating on and beholding the beauty of the Lord” (Psalm 27:4Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)). The Trinity is beautiful because it proclaims that God is one and shows God as loving relationship from all eternity; uncreated, eternal, Sovereign.
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God” (John 1:1Open in Logos Bible Software (if available))
“For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,” (Colossians 2:9Open in Logos Bible Software (if available))
“. . . Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. “For although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped.” (Philippians 2:5-8Open in Logos Bible Software (if available))
“God, . . .
in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
. . .
And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
“AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”
. . .
But of the Son He says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.”
(Hebrews 1:1- 3Open in Logos Bible Software (if available), 6Open in Logos Bible Software (if available), 8Open in Logos Bible Software (if available).)
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. ( John 1:1-5Open in Logos Bible Software (if available))
“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the one and only Son, full of grace and truth.” (John 1:14Open in Logos Bible Software (if available))
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“now you are going all into hank mode” Lol.
Hank is probably his alter ego.
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ken, you mocked my english and you quoted this
“Great is the LORD and Greatly to be praised, His greatness is unsearchable” Psalm 145:3
okay ken, i don’t even know how many “his” there are . maybe 3 his’ share greatness?
i don’t even know if “divine nature ” is great or each person is great
i don’t know
maybe it is talking about divine nature faqat?
but each person is less than divine nature/1 god
so it cannot be talking about each person
it is all confusing ken. i see 3 gods again.
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I was not trying to mock your English; just saying that sometimes it (and Intellect) was not understandable; . . . that’s all.
But mostly I understand what you are getting at. 😉
faqat = فقط = “only”
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“The mystery of God points to the truth of Who He is; since He is so great and above us and yet came down to us and loved us. “Amazing Love! how can it be that Thou my God shouldst die for me? ”
god is above us then became below us?
ken, this will send people to accident and emergency.
how do you derive “so great” from lowered/emptied/incarnated while at the same time believe another person remained in full un-empty, un incarnated un lowered state?
ken, this will send people to accident and emergency.
what are you making out of god? what have you done to god?
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Incarnation, Atonement, Trinity, Mystery – beautiful love !!
http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2010/05/incarnation-atonement-and-trinity.html
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“The mystery of God points to the truth of Who He is; since He is so great and above us and yet came down to us and loved us. “Amazing Love! how can it be that Thou my God shouldst die for me? ”
kenny, you don’t even experience the low between the 3 since you are finite and created.
and “jesus” is nothing but “biological chemical reactions” which remains disconnected, separated , unmixed from “divine logos”
ken, many pagan gods came down and gave their love and made sacrifices for their people . some gods came down as husband
some as sacrificial cow
some as wife.
some as family to show family unity
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God created emotions; God created us in His own spiritual image (Genesis 1:26-28) and God has personality, love, emotions, joy, anger against sin, etc. – The true God is the God of love. “God is Love” points to the Trinity.
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pagan gods had feelings too thats why they came down and wanted to have a hug.
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But do you admit that Allah created personality and feelings and emotions? How do you explain how Allah came up with personality, feelings, emotions, mind, etc. ?
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Ken Temple
November 30, 2016 • 2:25 pm
ehovah’s Witnesses (Arianism) and Islam are similar in that they reject the doctrine of the Trinity; which demonstrate that they are man made religions, among other problems of many false doctrines. Making God easier to understand demonstrates that these (both Islam and Jehovah’s Witnesses) are man-made religions.
I say;
“there is no one like Yahweh our God.” Exodus 8:10
“Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35
“Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
“See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
“Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
“You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22
“For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?” 2 Samuel 22:32
“Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
“You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
“O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
“You alone [bad] are Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6
“For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God” Psalm 18:31
“You alone [bad], Lord, are God.” Isaiah 37:20
The above verses is clearly written to confirm the God of the Arians(Witness), Jews, Unitarians and Muslims but “3 persons 1 God” is missing.
Thanks.
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Ken Temple
November 30, 2016 • 2:54 pm
I was not trying to mock your English; just saying that sometimes it (and Intellect) was not understandable; . . . that’s all.
But mostly I understand what you are getting at.
faqat = فقط = “only”
I say;
When your theology is not understandable, you blame it on our English language.
Is the Father who is not Jesus, a God?
Is Jesus(Son) who is Father, God?
You cannot answer this question and no Trinitarian can answer it. If the Father is God and the Son is God, then any kindergarten child will count 2 Gods. This is what I asked and you blamed it on my English language.
We all make mistakes here and some of us have passed our English and communication classes in Europe, North America or Australian colleges.
Spell check and thesaurus is not for non English natives alone. It is for English natives as well because everyone makes mistakes. We have speech writers, proofreaders in any organization to correct mistakes.
I type while working and no time to proof read and I admit I do have some mistakes but people are getting my message.
Thanks.
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“But do you admit that Allah created personality and feelings and emotions? How do you explain how Allah came up with personality, feelings, emotions, mind, etc. ?”
this is like asking how did God come up with male and feeling parts? lol
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“male and feeling parts?” – what do you mean by that?
physical touch, physical organs?
or the emotions of being a male, ?
did you mean “female” also – the unseen feminine feelings?
need to be more specific.
Genesis 1:26-28 is not about the physical image, but rather the unseen internal spiritual/soulish image inside of man and woman that sets us apart from animals and enables us to have a relationship with God, spiritual life, ethics, right vs. wrong, consciousness, self-awareness, communication, creativity, language, ability to reason and think and argue a thesis, theory, etc. ability to do philosophy, etc.
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Some good books on the Trinity:
1. James White. The Forgotten Trinity. Bethany House Publishers, 1998.
2. Robert Bowman. Why You Should Believe in the Trinity: An Answer to Jehovah’s Witnesses. Baker Books, 1989.
3. Timothy George. Is the Father of Jesus the God of Muhammad? Zondervan, 2002. (While I disagree with Timothy George’s recent ecumenism with Roman Catholicism, this book is very good for the theological issues in dealing with Islam.)
4. John Piper. “Contending for Christ Contra Mundum: Exile and Incarnation in the Life of Athanasius”, in Contending For Our All. Crossway Books, 2006. Piper’s chapter on Athanasius speaks to sound doctrine, church history, apologetics, contextualization, hermeneutics, and he addresses the emerging church issue. Highly recommended.
The “Trinitas -Unitas God”, “three in One” God is the Sovereign Creator God who is and was relationship from all eternity past. Amazing! Awesome!
The Trinity answers the issue of longing for that connection of relationship with the living God; He is relationship; love from all eternity; Lover, Beloved, and Love in relationship; Father, Son, and Spirit.
The Trinity and incarnation also enters us into answering the issue of suffering and why God has ordained that suffering and evil happen.
Dorothy Sayers, the Anglican writer, wrote an interesting piece, seeking to answer the issue of why God allowed evil to come into the world. Reformed theology speaks of “God ordaining all things” – and when it comes to evil entering the world, we understand “ordaining” as “deciding that it would happen” (Acts 2:22-23Open in Logos Bible Software (if available); 4:27-28Open in Logos Bible Software (if available); Ephesians 1:11Open in Logos Bible Software (if available); Romans 9:22-23Open in Logos Bible Software (if available), Isaiah 45:7Open in Logos Bible Software (if available); Amos 3:6Open in Logos Bible Software (if available); Lam. 3:37-38Open in Logos Bible Software (if available); Genesis 50:20Open in Logos Bible Software (if available); Romans 8:28-29Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)) while at the same time not being the one who does the evil. (I John 1:5Open in Logos Bible Software (if available); Hab. 1:13Open in Logos Bible Software (if available); Isaiah 6; Titus 1:2Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)) As John Piper has written, “God is not a sinner.” While some of Sayer’s statement is not theologically precise, and some is not the best wording; I still think it captures a good apologetic truth for the skeptic and a strength for a young believer growing in theology:
“For whatever reason God chose to make man as he is – limited and suffering and subject to sorrows and death – He had the honesty and the courage to take His own medicine. Whatever game He is playing with His creation, He has kept His own rules and played fair. He can exact nothing from man that He has not exacted from Himself. He has Himself gone through the whole of human experience, from the trivial irritations of family life and the cramping restrictions of hard work and lack of money to the worst horrors of pain and humiliation and defeat, despair and death. When He was a man, He played the man. He was born in poverty and died in disgrace and thought it well worth while.” (Dorothy Sayers, Creed or Chaos? New York: Harcourt, Brace and Col, 149, p. 4; cited in Josh McDowell and Don Stewart, Answers to Tough Questions. Here’s Life Publishers, 1980, p. 153-154.
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3 gods using “divine nature” to do separate pagan actions . love making, incarnation, punishing each other using divine wrath etc etc
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“But do you admit that Allah created personality and feelings and emotions? How do you explain how Allah came up with personality, feelings, emotions, mind, etc. ?”
kind of funny you believe that your god experiences cause and effect. an accident maybe cause sadness, but what causes feelings of emotions in god? makes no sense.
maybe your god experiences mood swings like the following
Bipolar disorder is characterized by extreme mood swings, usually between mania and depression. A mood swing is an extreme or rapid change in mood. … However, when mood swings are so strong that they are disruptive, they may be the main part of a bipolar disorder.
so how did god come up with bipolar disorder ? does he experience them ?
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There is a difference between legitimate and beautiful emotions vs. bi-polar mood swings.
see this article:
“God without Mood-Swings”
http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2014/06/god-without-mood-swings.html
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“But do you admit that Allah created personality and feelings and emotions? How do you explain how Allah came up with personality, feelings, emotions, mind, etc. ?”
btw the father is emotionless because he experiences no incarnation and the son cannot put feeling of being human in him. think about it . you really are pagans
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God was sad that He had made man, because of man’s rebellion and sin. Genesis 6:5-6 – He had emotions before the incarnation. But not “mood swings”.
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poor god. must have been heart broken. must have become helpless. all those sins and he becoming sad and sad like human being. until he drowned everyone . and then continued being sad when he left sinners on a boat.
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“18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”
i think a lot of pagan human worshippers attributed uniqueness to their gods and gave them pre-existence. if jews could come up with one, then surely others came up with one too.
jews have a habit of worshipping celetial bodies, animals, pagan gods and in the book of kings thought the patriarcs were mushriks
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except Yahweh Himself predicted these things. Isaiah 7:14; 9:6; Genesis 3:15 (the seed of woman), etc.
The reality in eternity past (John 1:1-5) caused the historical events of the incarnation (John 1:14; Luke 1:34-35; Philippians 2:5-8), atonement, resurrection, outpouring of the Holy Spirit.
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ghita predicted about pagan gods too , so what is your point?
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My Iranian friend Kamyar, who was my second Farsi teacher in 1994, said this to me:
“The two most amazing things about Christianity are:
1. That God, who we were taught in Islam, was far off and aloof, became a man like us, clothed Himself in flesh.”
and
2. That there is a way to be saved from sin and know it and have assurance of it.
“دو چیز خیلی عالی است در مسیحیت
1. که خدا، که ما در اسلام تعلیم یافتیم که خیلی دور از ما می ماند، انسان شد مثل ما شد، و خود را جسم پوشید،
و 2. که یک راهی را وجود دارد برای نجات از گناه و می توانیم آن راه را بدانیم، و اطمینان داشته باشیم
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The greatest among the gods have drawn close to our city…
Both Demeter and Demetrius…
Hail to you, O Son of the mighty god Poseidon and of Aphrodite.
The other gods dwell so far away,
or else they have no ears,
or they do not exist, or do not care at all about us
We see you in our midst,
not a wooden or stone presence, but bodily
And so we pray to you… bring about peace
for you are the Lord (κύριος)
Notice what is said of Demetrius. He is one of the “greatest gods,” the son of God” (specifically of the gods Poseidon and Aphrodite), one who is “near” his own people – not remote, off on Mount Olympus, the one who “brings peace,” who can be called “Lord.”
These ascriptions to Demetrius should sound familiar to anyone who knows about early Christianity, where Jesus too was known as the incarnation of a divine being, the Son of God, the bringer of peace, the Lord, and God in the flesh. My ultimate point: Jesus was not the first to be called such things, or thought to be a kind of incarnation of the divine. He had predecessors.
end quote
your friend would have loved pagan flesh
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But the Baghiva ghita is pagan; whereas the Qur’an affirms the Torah and Tanakh, and the One True God prophesied of the virgin birth and incarnation, and even Islam affirms the virgin birth of the Messiah. Surah 3 and 19
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trinity is pagan too.
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it cannot be because it is based on the Monotheistic Scriptures and affirms Monotheism.
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3 gods super glued together. stop lying .
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“God was sad that He had made man, because of man’s rebellion and sin. Genesis 6:5-6 – He had emotions before the incarnation. But not “mood swings”.”
god was sad? i thought internally there was love making going on and that such is inherent emotion between the 3, so sadness would be taken care of by the action of love making
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Ken Temple
Your theology is not comprehensible and you cannot answer my question, hence blaming your incomprehensible theology to my English. Find below the copy and pasted question. You also accuse me of repeating Haile Selassie etc. God-Man. Don’t you keep repeating the God-Man Jesus to us? which is an impossibility like all God-Men.
Intellect
November 29, 2016 • 5:53 pm
Intellect
November 29, 2016 • 5:41 pm
Ken Temple
November 29, 2016 • 5:17 pm
Not comprehendible
I say;
Let me make it comprehensible for you.
God the Father. Can you say God the Father is God? or not?
God the Son. Can you say God the Son is God? or not?
If they are Gods, then my parallel of comparing me and you passed. If you cannot answer, my parallel of comparing me and you counted as 2 beings stands and counting 2 gods is counting 2 beings and it is polytheism.
So, once again
Is Jesus God? one God
Is the Father who is not Jesus God? another God
So, the parallel between me and you stands. The Father generated/created the Son-Ken Temple
God created millions of human beings and God created/generated 2 or 1 Gods to Himself and make them 3.
Thanks.
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Interesting fact. The Hebrew word for truth is Emet אמת which is the first, middle and last letters of the alphabet. Which symbolizes the beginning and the end and the core of all things and ideas the Ultimate Truth. There were Jewish sages that didn’t say the word אמת in unclean places not to violate the Name of the “True” God…
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explain “infinite love” and how are you connected to it? you are finite and created and jesus is “biological chemical reactions”
does each person experience love like a human?
does he get sad like a human? does father practice sadness on the son and vice versa?
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The Jewish Scriptures say that God created mankind in His own image (Genesis 1:26-28). We know that this does not mean physical image because God is invisible and Spirit and eternal, non physical, non-material.
The invisible spiritual image came first.
So, pure and good emotions without sin, came first. Along with mind, will, consciousness, creativity, reason, ethics, good vs. evil, etc.
“Let Us make man in our image” – points back to the plurality in God, Trinity in Unity.
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yet your god became physical. invisible to visible.and he had feelings like human being. are you telling me your god can’t experience human feelings without flesh? every emotion you mention, you have to redefine it to mean something else, because NOBODY knows JACK about what infinite being “feels”
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Unless He Himself has revealed to us in His revelation, His word, as to His own nature, emotions, character, etc.
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since when did god change his mind from animal to human flesh ?
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“Unless He Himself has revealed to us in His revelation, His word, as to His own nature, emotions, character, etc.”
sad
sad/Submit
adjective
1.
feeling or showing sorrow; unhappy.
so each person (in trinity) can be sad without practising unhappiness on each other?
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ken , who punished the son for all sins? when the son is being punished, is he fully god and fully human?
when the son is being punished is he talking to his divine side which is in his body?
when he is being punished , is he supporting himself through his “fully god” side?
in the depths of hell, people will not receive divine support.
does “god the son” support himself when he is being punished on the cross?
i assume “fully god” and “fully man”
in
“unity”
support each other/ or one is supported by another while it is being punished
but normal humans, in hell will receive no support and will not be able to “bear” punishment
you god seems to have taken it easy on himself, ken.
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Isaiah 53:6
“. . . The Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him”
Isaiah 53:10
“it pleased the Lord to crush Him, if He would render Himself a guilt offering . . .
i will now severely expose you ken,
Vis-a-vis the translation question in this thread:
There are lots of scholarly and academic translations which are appropriate. NRSV, which I suspect you used here, is fine much of the time. However, I would agree that it is flawed here in a few ways.
The Hebrew is as follows:
וַיהֹוָה חָפֵץ דַּכְּאוֹ הֶחֱלִי אִם תָּשִׂים אָשָׁם נַפְשׁוֹ יִרְאֶה זֶרַע יַאֲרִיךְ יָמִים וְחֵפֶץ יְהֹוָה בְּיָדוֹ יִצְלָח:
וַיהֹוָה חָפֵץ דַּכְּאוֹ – And God desired to crush him הֶחֱלִי – make him sick. אִם תָּשִׂים אָשָׁם – if you give a guilt offering נַפְשׁוֹ – his soul יִרְאֶה זֶרַע יַאֲרִיךְ יָמִים – he will see seed (children/etc), his days will be made long (long life) וְחֵפֶץ יְהֹוָה בְּיָדוֹ יִצְלָח – And with the will of God in hand, he will prosper
is the writer saying that the suffering servant is to make his life an offering in the same sense of making animal life as an offering for sins as is found in leviticus ? … whatever the hebrew word is behind “offering” is it meant to be taken literal ?
אשם can mean guilt or can refer to a guilt offering. It does not refer to making an offering of a person and very importantly does not have a connector between אשם and נפשו.
The sentence is, in effect, calling for repentance which, by extension, heals the suffering servant – granting him long life and children – rather than him continuing to be in pain due to the problems of society.
what is the reason behind god crushing him?
There is a general thread of God wishing to punish the wicked, but held back by the righteous who are compassionate. This is usually part and parcel with God making it particularly difficult for the righteous who, in effect, are defying the order God desires.
In context I the person is very ill and sick from the beginning. God specifically is making his life harder to create repentance by this individual.
These aren’t typical descriptors which are used to say that someone died, but are quite metaphorical and poetic.
Being cut off from the land of the living could be speaking of exile which plays into the theme of being removed from judgement.
Alternatively, you could connect being cut off from the land of the living with the people’s plague (which you could say “kills” the land).
He was assigned a grave with the wicked
Better rendition: He gave his grave to the wicked and his deaths to the wealthy.
end quote
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ken, i hope now that you will stop using ISAIAH 53
it is over for you ken.
jesus is not the suffering servant in isaiah 53.
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