This book is recommended by John J Collins, Professor of Biblical Exegesis and Interpretation at Yale University who has written the Forward (see extract below). It arrived at my office this afternoon. I immediately jumped to chapter 8 Jesus Was Wrong as I suspected this would cover the same problems I wrestled with as a Christian. And so it was: the author identified the same problems I had noticed, discussed the same possible solutions, examined NT Wright’s popular interpretation of Jewish Apocalyptic, and concluded as I had done that the Jesus of the synoptic gospels had prophesied the End of the World within the generation of people then living in the first century. The Jesus of the gospels was wrong.
As New Testament scholar Professor Dale C. Allison, Jr comments:
Christians can ignore the facts that Stark brings into the light of day only if they want to be wrong
I highly recommend this book to dawah carriers and Christians who wish to get to grips with the true nature of the Bible.
Categories: Bible, Biblical scholarship, Books, Christianity, Daw'ah, History, Recommended Reading, Scholarship
Blogging Theology 
in preface he has some good words about muhammad p in this review
Click to access stark_copan-review.pdf
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Since you are so confident of Stark’s book then surely you have the courage to debate me on the ethical teachings of the Bible versus that of your profit. You game?
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no thanks Sam. Why don’t you use your real name?
You should read the book as it will show you the real Bible without all that apologetics and spin. Up for the challenge?
Christians can ignore the facts that Stark brings into the light of day only if they want to be wrong.
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Williams I am challenging you to use the contents of the book against me to see how wellStark’s arguments stand up to refutation while also applying the same assumptions and criticisms to the morality of your profit. So you up for it?
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which part of “no thanks Sam” don’t you understand?
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I thought so. So much for your confidence in Stark’s trash.
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i don’t get it. since it is starks book, shouldn’t you challenge stark to a debate ?
http://religionatthemargins.com/
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I haven’t read 90% of the book. Chapter 8 is spot on about the whopping error in the gospels. Maybe I will have many criticisms of the rest, who knows? But you have read absolutely nothing of it.
Oh dear Sam- its pure ignorance to dismiss it unseen.
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Man Up Pauly Wally
December 1, 2016 • 10:57 pm
Since you are so confident of Stark’s book then surely you have the courage to debate me on the ethical teachings of the Bible versus that of your profit. You game?
I say;
It is long time since you debated any Muslim. Nabeel, Jay, David Wood etc. all are debating with Muslims but you alone cannot get anyone to debate.
If you want to evangelize to Muslims and debate them, then use the donations you are getting from Christians and travel to UK’s speakers corner, near the Queen’s palace and you will find so many Muslims will be willing to debate with you so that we will see it on youtube.
You will have the chance to prove your knowledge in Quran, Hadith etc. Waiting to get a room debate without success for a long time should change and you must try open air evangelism.
Any way if you visit speakers corner and lose the debate, do not turn it into insults as you are used to, like this Christian man.
This Christian old man makes me laugh. He thought everyone at speakers corner is a Muslim. He started to attack a non Muslim with the same arguments that has been refuted thoroughly and over and over. I hope Sam Shamoun will not repeat that argument when he gets to speakers corner.
Living room evangelism or auditorium evangelism is not effective now a days that is why Sam is not getting debates and customers. He should try open air evangelism like Jay Smith, Jonathan M., Tony Costa, David Wood and Nabeel have tried at speakers corner. It will be recorded and published on youtube and it will be there and the whole world will view it over and over.
Paul Williams has a lot of videos at speakers corner and any one you watch, there are thousands of Muslims praying for Paul Williams and thanking him for putting things straight like the above video.
Sam, I am sure if you reach speakers corner you find so many Muslims willing to debate you. They think organizing an auditorium is a waste to time. Just get there like your colleagues have done. You can use your own money as Tony Costa and the rest have done.
Thanks.
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Paul, read the book and debate Sam. Why are you scared?
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ksk
There are so many people to debate at speakers corner. Oh Sam can go and debate Yusuf Ishmael of South Africa.
Paul Williams has the right to debate who he wants to debate and Sam is not one of them. What is your problem?
Sam is not a scholar in Jewish, Christian and Muslim religions and he is not expert on the scriptural languages that is why he does not get debates.
Thanks.
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ksk: Paul, read the book and debate Sam. Why are you scared?
Because debating a piece of sh’it like Samoun is an affront to one’s humanity.
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“Since you are so confident of Stark’s book then surely you have the courage to debate me on the ethical teachings of the Bible versus that of your profit. You game?”
shamoun, have you defended muhammad using the apologetic you apply on rape, massacre, genocide in the bible?
you know what will happen?
lets quote stark
Much
more appropriate would be to measure Muhammad against Moses,
and if Copan were to do that, guess who would be the shining
beacon of light? Well, it wouldn’t be the elder of the two statesmen.
end quote
why did he say that sham?
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shamoun, why is stark being fair? why not be fair and apply the same defensive apologetic on muhammad? well, then your donations will stop .
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Kmak, what’s with the insults? I find Sam to be very knowledgeable and always backs up his claims with irrefutable evidence . The same can’t be said of Paul, who usually ignores evidence and reads verses out of context. I don’t see the point in refusing to debate him if the truth is on your side. Is it not your duty as muslim to help those in darkness? ? Sam lives in America, it’s easier and cheaper to debate online!
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ksk
You said;
Kmak, what’s with the insults? I find Sam to be very knowledgeable and always backs up his claims with irrefutable evidence . The same can’t be said of Paul, who usually ignores evidence and reads verses out of context. I don’t see the point in refusing to debate him if the truth is on your side. Is it not your duty as muslim to help those in darkness? ? Sam lives in America, it’s easier and cheaper to debate online!
I say;
Sam Shamoun is knowledgeable? I am afraid, you do not know what you are talking about. Back his claims with irrefutable evidence? Islamic text translators to English say their translation is not the best like the original Arabic.It is to give a rough idea but may not be accurate. That is why Muslims will not take Sam serious because we depend on Islamic scholars like John L. Esposito of Georgetown university, Graig Considine etc. and many Islamic scholars who are Christians and Muslims who knows classical Arabic and History of any text they might explain.
Sam usually do not read the texts in it Arabic form but depends on translations and that is not what Islamic teaching is about.
Sam reads our text in context but Paul Williams reads Christian texts out of context. Typical Christian. Have studied classical Arabic to know Sam is in context? Have you studied Greek to know PW is out of context?
Paul Williams knows some Greek than you and Sam Shamoun.
If Sam is not getting online debates, why not start travelling with the donation you are giving him? because you think he is interlligent. Dr. James White is in Australia and has travelled a lot to evangelize and debate. David Wood, Jay, Nabeel, etc. have all travelled a lot and all of them have been to speakers corner.
ksk, If Sam is knowledgeable as you said, why is he the odd one who cannot travel to evangelize and why are you not donating for your knowledgeable evangelist to travel and evangelize with debates?
Thanks.
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Ksk: Kmak, what’s with the insults? I find Sam to be very knowledgeable and always backs up his claims with irrefutable evidence
So a random guy on the internet is enameled with Shamoun. Therefore, Paul should debate him?
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lol.
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at least the west allows freedom for people to make these kinds of criticisms.
You could never do this about the Qur’an in the Muslim world.
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So? You rubbish biblical scholarship at every opportunity. You spit on the freedom you have.
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Ken Temple
December 1, 2016 • 11:34 pm
at least the west allows freedom for people to make these kinds of criticisms.
You could never do this about the Qur’an in the Muslim world
I say;
Corrections.
The west under Christianity would not have allowed these criticisms. They will kill and subjugate all non Christians, then start killing other Christians who do not have the same believe like them.
Freedom of religion was forced on Christianity when they were beaten up by the liberals.
Proof:
Along with the religious consequences of the Reformation and Counter-Reformation came deep and lasting political changes. Northern Europe’s new religious and political freedoms came at a great cost, with decades of rebellions, wars and bloody persecutions. The Thirty Years’ War alone may have cost Germany 40 percent of its population.
_______________________________________________
THE REFORMATION: SWITZERLAND AND CALVINISM
The Swiss Reformation began in 1519 with the sermons of Ulrich Zwingli, whose teachings largely paralleled Luther’s. In 1541 John Calvin, a French Protestant who had spent the previous decade in exile writing his “Institutes of the Christian Religion,” was invited to settle in Geneva and put his Reformed doctrine—which stressed God’s power and humanity’s predestined fate—into practice. The result was a theocratic regime of enforced, austere morality.
Calvin’s Geneva became a hotbed for Protestant exiles, and his doctrines quickly spread to Scotland, France, Transylvania and the Low Countries, where Dutch Calvinism became a religious and economic force for the next 400 years.
______________________________________________
Source: http://www.history.com/topics/reformation
If Muslims were against criticism, there would have been no single native, indigenous Christians, Jews etc. living in the majority Muslims countries today.
I was surprised to see Christians alive in a recent capture of isis controlled towns, with the Churches not destroyed and crucifix not destroyed.
The news and CNN, Fox made me surprise because they way they are saying the Christians are being butchered, I thought I will not see any Church and Christian standing after the capture of Christian towns.
Calvin and the rest of the Christians had a theocratic Europe until defeated by the liberals to force freedom of religion. Most Christian evangelicals who voted for Donald Trump including the vice president do not like Muslims and the spread of Islam. Islam keeps spreading.
The US was semi theocratic until defeated by the liberals.
We have good Christians, Jews and non religious in the US and the world over who are waiting to see if Trump administration will profile Muslim travellers and they promise to voice their disapproval. This Muslim profiling is going on even under Obama and they kept quiet about that.
The foul mouthed Trump and his supporters have publicised the profiling and now they are under scrutiny.
Thanks.
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“If you want to evangelize to Muslims and debate them, then use the donations you are getting from Christians and travel to UK’s speakers corner, near the Queen’s palace and you will find so many Muslims will be willing to debate with you so that we will see it on youtube.”
speakers corner is too dangerous for shamouns career.
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Endorsements by:
Tony Compolo – you has slowly over the years become more and more liberal and recently came out as saying homosexuality is ok and same sex marriage is ok.
Greg Boyd – who does not believe the Almighty God knows the future. What a heretic!
Frank Schaeffer – the bitter son of Francis Schaeffer, who was a great man. The son Frank is full of bitterness and self-pity.
James McGraff – like Peter Enns and others, just liberals with an axe to grind.
makes the whole thing dis-credited.
And chapter 8 has already been refuted.
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2012/04/05/jesus-always-spoke-the-truth/
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http://humanfacesofgod.com/?page_id=41
the debates continue
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i’m sorry ken, jesus made false predictions.
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If the truth should trump all, then this book should persuade those it argues against. It is informed, heart-felt, and utterly reasonable. Christians can ignore the facts that Stark brings into the light of day only if they want to be wrong.
Dr. Dale C. Allison, Jr.
Professor of New Testament and Early Christianity
Princeton Theological Seminary
Author of Jesus of Nazareth: Millenarian Prophet
and Constructing Jesus: Memory, Imagination, and History
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See, THIS is an example of argumentum ad hominem…
Makes the whole thing fallacious.
Boo-hoo, keep trying (actually don’t).
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The debate does continue indeed:
http://triablogue.blogspot.com/search?q=%22Thom+Stark%22#
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good article by Anthony Rogers; it echos my own article, “Jesus Always told the truth”
Before the Fall of Jerusalem
The present writer believes on grounds quite independent from what may be inferred from Ally’s argument that the Gospel accounts were written prior to A.D. 70, but since Ally’s own argument unwittingly assumes this to be the case, no lengthy defense of this view is necessary in this context. Let it be said here, however, to cap off the list of ironies, that one of the most telling evidences for the fact that the Gospels were written prior to A.D. 70 is that they never say anything about the temple’s destruction. This is not an argument from silence but an argument from conspicuous absence. No first century Jew could fail to mention that such an event occurred. Indeed, not even Roman writers failed to mention it. Furthermore, on other occasions when the apostles attributed to Jesus a prediction, they did not hesitate to indicate that His words came to pass and that they were writing after the events in question (e.g. John 2:18-22). They would not have missed the opportunity to say that Jesus predicted the Temple’s destruction and that it came to pass just as He said. Moreover, they proclaimed in Jesus the fulfillment of the Temple system (Matthew 12:6, John 1:14-18, 4:4-26). They would most certainly have taken advantage of the Temple’s destruction to drive home the point. What better evidence could they give that that whole system was fulfilled and set aside than that it was completely wiped off the map? When Jesus died, they point out that the curtain in the Temple was torn from top to bottom (Matthew 27:50-51; Mark 15:37-38; Luke 23:45-46), a curtain that Josephus tells us was so thick that two horses tied to each side of it would not have been able to tear it apart. They would not all have neglected to say that the whole edifice was torn down in that very generation. To think otherwise is not to think at all or is to be under the control of a powerful and deluding bias. So strong is this line of consideration that even the liberal John A. T. Robinson was constrained by it to conclude that every book of the New Testament was written before A.D. 70.
ONE of the oddest facts about the New Testament is that what on any showing would appear to be the single most datable and climactic event of the period – the fall of Jerusalem in ad 70, and with it the collapse of institutional Judaism based on the temple – is never once mentioned as a past fact. It is, of course, predicted; and these predictions are, in some cases at least, assumed to be written (or written up) after the event. But the silence is nevertheless as significant as the silence for Sherlock Holmes of the dog that did not bark.
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sorry for typo; meant “who”, ( not “you”)
Tony Compolo – who has slowly over the years become more and more liberal and recently came out as saying homosexuality is ok and same sex marriage is ok.
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talk about ad hominem attacks! All you can do is go on and on about sex.
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Greg Boyd is an “Open theist” – he does not believe God Almighty knows the future.
So nothing about sex on that issue.
Just speaking the truth about Compolo; he is no friend of Islam, and neither is Boyd.
And if the other liberals had the freedom, they would destroy Islam with their skeptical anti-supernatural scholarship also.
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you did also on your re-tweet on Twitter:
//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js
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ken, did you vote for donald trump?
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Ken how does going after the blurbs on the back of the book tackle the subject within the book?
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Since they endorse the book as something good; and I know about several of them and their theology and liberalism, endorsement of homosexuality; and the Open Theism of Greg Boyd is an amazing ridulous heresy (that the Almighty does not know the future !!) and Frank Schaeffer’s bitterness against his godly parents (I have read lots of stuff on that over the years) . . .
well, it just adds to the lack of credibility of such a book;
along with a lot of refutation at the Triablogue article on it. (that Sam Shamoun gave the link to.)
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I am glad they have that freedom in the west; it makes us strong. Whereas cry babies in the Muslim world cannot take criticism.
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lol silly. Like I said you spit on the freedom you have. You hate truth telling about the Bible (numerous comments of yours testify to that fact) and would love to have it all suppressed.
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no; what I just wrote contradicts what you have written here.
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Christians are like the folkloric story about an arrogant fox. That fox used to be proud of its fluffy tail, and it didn’t accept any criticism about its tail. Howeve, one day it got trapped, and its tail got cut off.
Then that fox started “praching” about how amazing to have a cut tail to other foxes.
Ken Temple, Read the history of the west about ” the freedom” before you try to make a point, especially that you’re an Iranian, aren’t you?
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Ken Temple is an old, white guy. Not Iranian.
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55 is not that old. You are suppossed to respect your elders. 😉
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Here we go! so you are a white dude!
Are you a pastor?
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Is there something wrong with being “white” / European / Caucasian ?
I am an ordained minister / missionary (since 1990) yes; and was a fellow elder/pastor with an Iranian minister of a local Iranian church in the USA from 1996-2008.
I am still a missionary at large – Bible teacher, but not a local church pastor of a local church, but in submission to the elders/pastors of my local church.
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Ken Temple
December 2, 2016 • 5:42 am
55 is not that old. You are suppossed to respect your elders
I say;
According to physicians, 55 is not old. Reverend Ken, I thought you were around 68 to 70 when you said you finished your seminary in the 1980’s.
Reverend Ken Temple is the Brother and friend of us here on this blog since it was started. He is a good man and I believe will not harm anyone unlike his Christian ancestors who will kill and subjugate non Christians and Christians alike. Now they voted for Donald Trump who lied to them and said he will continue what the Christian ancestors did i.e. “We want our country back”.
Ken Temple will see the truth and change it to something that is not is not true. Nabeel is lying about his former faith but Ken Temple will twist the lie and say “Nabeel did not know Hadith”. Every Muslims knows hadith when he is young. We are taught to memorise some to the extent we have people who memorised the whole hadith.
Shite have their own hadiths. They believe some of the Sunni hadiths and reject others. You cannot blame all Muslims on Shite hadiths or all Muslims on Sunni hadiths.
Ken Temple, you do blame Catholics on their rituals you do not do. How will Nabeel blame his former Qadianis for hadiths they do not teach? Because he is a liar who want to get money by using “I am a former Muslim” and that is where the money lies.
If Qadianis do not teach Nabeel Hadiths, then they are not Muslims. So Nabeel’s lies is more than Ergun Carner. Nabeel said that he was a Muslim without Hadith.
It is like a Protestant Christian who left Christianity and blamed Christianity for the Catholic rituals he does not do. He will then say he does not know the Catholic rituals. Why was he not a Catholic? Because his protestants parents did not teach him. Why? Because he, they are not Catholics. So it will be a lie to blame the whole Christians for Catholic ritual.
That is the lie of Nabeel Quraish, he is blaming Hadith on Qadianis who do not teach it. Hadith are sayings and people choose the ones they believe but all Muslims believe and teach hadiths. If Qadianis to not teach hadith, then they are not Muslims and it is disingenuous to hold them responsible for hadiths like Nabeel is doing to “if he is still a Qadiani, he will use hadith” the Qadianis to not teach.
Ken it would be a great lie for a Catholic Christian to blame their rituals on all Christians. Nabeel’s Qadianis say they are Muslims but do not teach and learn hadiths. So it will be a sinister, satanic and wicked lies for Nabeel to say if he is still in his Islamic(Qadiani) faith, he would have gone to Syria. Nabeels former Qadiani do not teach hadiths so they will not go to Syria so he lied.
There is not explanation to this on Dividing Line to will undue the lie by Nabeel Quraish. I want the lies to stop that is why I will correct you when you erred.
Thanks.
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I went to seminary from 1983 to 1988. It took me 5 years for the 3 year degree as I had to take time off and work in order to pay for school.
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correction to my last paragraph
There is no explanation to this on Dividing Line that will undue the lie by Nabeel Quraish. I want the lies to stop, that is why I will correct you when you erred.
If Ken is 55 then he is not old after all. He is getting there but not yet and has many years to cover.
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ken, did you vote for donald trump?
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Abdullah,
I am an American of Scottish – English descent. My folks came to the Americas in the 1600s. But I learned Farsi and lived in a community of Iranians outside of Iran. (Never been to Iran, but learned their language and culture. They are Wonderful intelligent people.)
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I was for Marco Rubio, or Ted Cruz, or Carly Fiorina, or Rand Paul;
not Donald and not Hillary.
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we did not ask you who you had a crush on, we asked you who you voted for.
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Ken & Sam:
Is the Bible perfect in all its historical details and ethical teaching?
What is your view?
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Paul, stop asking for their views. Sam has challenged you to a debate. Man up.
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Hi I want to hear their views on the post.
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It seems they always attempt to divert attention away from the critical nature of various posts in order to avoid the embarrassment that a discussion of the specific subject will bring.
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Indeed!
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Yes, the Bible is the inerrant Word of God. The original autographa is inerrant.
Copyist errors do not affect inerrancy.
but you already knew that I believed that.
For example, on the issue of chapter 8, I have written an article on that that shows Jesus did not make a false prophesy.
Around AD 30, a few days before His death, He predicted the destruction of the temple within 40 years (this generation) in 70 AD – Matthew 23:36-39; Matthew 24:1-3
but the disciples added His second coming into the question in verse 3, so His answer is a mixture of the future of 70 AD, but in verse 36, “but of that day” – He changed the subject to His second coming only.
matthew 24:36- to the end and chapter 25 is all about the literal second coming, future to us.
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2012/04/05/jesus-always-spoke-the-truth/
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But Jesus said ALL THESE THINGS including the destruction of the Temple and the son of Man coming on the clouds would happen during the generation then living. He was wrong.
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Ken to insist on falsehood deliberately is a sin, no?
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mark :
The Coming of the Son of Man
24 “But in those days, after that suffering,
the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light,
25 and the stars will be falling from heaven,
and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
26 Then they will see ‘the son of man coming in clouds’ with great power and glory. 27 Then he will send out the angels, and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.
matthew :
The Coming of the Son of Man
29 “IMMEDIATELY after the suffering of those days
the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from heaven,
and the powers of heaven will be shaken.
30 Then the sign of the son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see ‘the son of man coming on the clouds of heaven’ with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Do not lose faith by a delay of 2500 years that no one has come, or, according to the NT 2000 years or more. Rev 22:6-7… And he said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place.” “And behold, I am coming soon….”
ken, mark fled to the mountain and wrote his gospel , but jesus did not come to save him. mark ended his gospel with
“they said nothing to anyone for they were afraid”
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“Now when these things begin to take place, stand up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
2500 +
“Be alert at all times, praying that you may have the strength to escape all these things that will take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
2500 +
quote :
You quote from 2 Thessalonians but most NT scholars do not consider this epistle a genuine Pauline letter. It seems to have been forged in Paul’s name precisely because the continued delay in Christ’s coming had to be explained. 2 Thess provides the revelation of the Wicked and the theological necessity of his destruction as reasons for the delay of parousia which Paul’s 1 Thess promised –
in his generation. 2 Th 2:15 refers to ‘traditions..taught by word or our epistle’, the latter being transparent reference to 1 Thess the concerns of which the second letter restates. Note that 2 Thess no longer affirms categorically that Paul’s (putative) contemporaries will see the parousia. Instead the forger urges the believers to turn away from deceivers who say that the day will not come.
end quote
sorry ken, jesus according to biblical criterion is a false prophet.
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ken, avoided answering who he voted for.
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I voted for Ted Cruz.
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so you did not vote for either hilary or trump?
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“all these things” – verse 34
keep reading
“but of that day” – verse 36
The subject changes.
I am not a “Post-millennialist” (I lean toward Amillennialism), but the arguments that Kenneth Gentry makes are compelling to me, for Matthew 24.
https://postmillennialismtoday.com/2014/04/30/ad-70-and-the-second-advent-in-matt-24-part-1/
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‘These things’ includes ‘that day’. Also note Verse 29, “immediately” after the suffering of those days (destruction of temple etc) the son of man will return.
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Do not lose faith by a delay of 2500 years that no one has come, or, according to the NT 2000 years or more. Rev 22:6-7… And he said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place.” “And behold, I am coming soon….”
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But he not come soon..,
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your an embarrassment
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some partial preterists even take the statements in Matthew 24:29-31 as symbolic for judgment on Israel in 70 AD.
Eusebius and Josephus record some amazing signs in the sky at the time of the destruction of the temple.
The details are in Kenneth Gentry’s books:
Before Jerusalem Fell
Perilous Times: A study in Eschatological Evil
and
R. C. Sproul’s “the Last Days According to Jesus” (see in my article, “Jesus always spoke the truth”)
Gentry believes most of what Revelation is talking about is also about 70 AD, except for the final chapters.
https://www.amazon.com/Before-Jerusalem-Fell-Dating-Revelation/dp/0982620608
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“some partial preterists even take the statements in Matthew 24:29-31 as symbolic for judgment on Israel in 70 AD.”
jesus became a preterist?
when you have a false prophet make him anything you want.
everybody back then was predicting israel, jerusalem and the temples doom. jesus predicted about his arrival , but he failed .
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“Eusebius and Josephus record some amazing signs in the sky at the time of the destruction of the temple.”
where did jesus link verse 29 with verse 24?
IMMEDIATELY after the suffering of those days
means
@ the time of the….?
you are a false witness.
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when christians know that their “saviour” made false predictions, they attempt to rescue him by making his claims insignificant. unnoticeable.
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well, he did say “no one knoweth the hour” not the Angles in heaven, the holy spirit nor the son.
Guess he was in son mode when he decided to freestyle/adlib it a bit…
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“Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”
ken’s jesus , just a few meteorites accompanied with fireworks .
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I agreed with Dr. White here, on issues about the election. Neither of the final 2 candidates of the major political parties were acceptable.
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ken, you neither voted for clinton or trump?
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Edward
Why do you keep asking him that question? He already told you he voted for Ted Cruz you idiot.
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As I said, you would need some whole books on the subject.
R. C. Sproul’s, The Last Days According to Jesus” is a good introduction to all the issues on Matthew 24 and the book of Revelation.
see the link inside my article:
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2012/04/05/jesus-always-spoke-the-truth/
Gentry’s book is more detailed.
Gary DeMar also has some good books on this subject, but I don’t always agree with some of the details of any of these writers.
The Last Days Madness, Gary DeMar
End-Times Fiction, Gary DeMar
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if you apply apologetics on jesus, why not defensive apologetics on muhammad? maybe you will leave christianity and embrace islam.
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Matthew 24:29 includes a quote from Isaiah 13:10 and allusions to Ezekiel 32:7 and Joel 2:10 (which Acts 2 quotes as relating to the day of Pentecost). Isaiah 13 is about Babylon and the judgment that God will bring on them by raising up the Medes and Persians – who did indeed judge Babylon. (Isaiah 13:17) For the Jews in the land, “the Day of Lord” all through the prophets included judgments by God allowing other nations to invade Israel. Also, Isaiah 19:1 says that “the Lord rides on a cloud” – obviously it is not meant to be taken literally, but it apocalyptic language that shows that God is coming to judge Egypt and the idols of Egypt. Matthew 24:29-31 seems to have some kind of a double fulfillment. Jesus initiated the conversation about the temple being destroyed in Matthew 24:1-2, but the disciples added 2 other issues and seemed to be the one’s who assumed that the second coming of Christ would be at the same time as the destruction of the temple. Jesus’ answers, therefore, from verses 3-35, are a mixture of 70 AD and the second coming. The disciples added “and the sign of Your coming”, “and the end of the age” to the question about the destruction of the temple. (verse 3)
Jesus said in the NT that He was “coming quickly” to several of the churches in Asia Minor in Revelation chapters 2-3, but not physically, rather coming in a sense of judgment in allowing other nations to conquer them. See Revelation 2:4-5; 2:16; 2:21-27; 3:3) God allowed the Goths and Visi-Goths to conquer these parts around 263 AD (they destroyed Ephesus then); then it was rebuilt. But later the Seljuk Turks came(1071 AD and beyond), and then the Ottomans (1453 AD) conquered all of that area. The lamp stands were taken away and the light was snuffed out. (see Revelation 2:4-5)
So, the verse (Mark 13:30; Matthew 24:34) is not embarrassing, when you study things more deeply and see that Jesus did predict 70 AD and the destruction of the temple and it came true about 40 years later after He said it; and that He will still come again on the clouds literally at His second coming. So the OT and NT Scriptures are true and communicate the truth of Jesus, who is the Truth, the way to God, and the life. (John 14:6)
Jesus truthfully predicted that not one stone would be left upon another, speaking of the temple buildings – Matthew 24:1-3; Mark 13:1-3; Luke 21:1 – Jesus was not talking about the outer wall – some of that is still there – as the western “Wailing Wall” of the Jews demonstrates. So, Shabir Ally was wrong in his recent debate with Dr. James White. -Did Jesus claim Deity? .
Jesus was right, not one stone of the temple building (s) would be left. Jesus’ prediction did not include the outer wall, which much of it is still standing, especially the western portion.
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quote:
Matthew 24:29 includes a quote from Isaiah 13:10 and allusions to Ezekiel 32:7 and Joel 2:10 (which Acts 2 quotes as relating to the day of Pentecost). Isaiah 13 is about Babylon and the judgment that God will bring on them by raising up the Medes and Persians – who did indeed judge Babylon. (Isaiah 13:17) For the Jews in the land, “the Day of Lord” all through the prophets included judgments by God allowing other nations to invade Israel. Also, Isaiah 19:1 says that “the Lord rides on a cloud” – obviously it is not meant to be taken literally, but it apocalyptic language that shows that God is coming to judge Egypt and the idols of Egypt.
compare to :
Right after Luke’s Jesus mentions the desolation of Jerusalem, he instructs his disciples at that time to flee to the mountains, just as the Maccabean revolutionaries fled to the mountains in the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes. Then Luke says (v. 24) that Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles, until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. What does this mean? It means that once the Romans attack Jerusalem, their time is pretty much up. When their time is up, that’s when the Son of Man will come on the clouds to avenge his people. There will be portents in the heavens, after the destruction of Jerusalem, and, according to Luke, “People will faint from fear and foreboding of what is coming upon the world, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken” (21:26). Note that this describes a worldwide judgment, not merely a judgment on Jerusalem (which has already taken place). The judgment upon Jerusalem is precisely what instigates the judgment upon the world. Luke’s Jesus goes on:
Now when these things begin to take place, stand up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
I make it clear in my chapter what this means. According to Luke, the redemption of the people of God follows immediately upon destruction of Jerusalem. When the Son of Man comes, that is the redemption of the people of God, not the judgment against them (which has already taken place). Kevin, I think, misses this. Luke’s Jesus concludes the discourse, saying,
Be alert at all times, praying that you may have the strength to escape all these things that will take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.
If the disciples are able to escape the suffering that will come upon Jerusalem, then they will be there to stand before the Son of Man when he comes to deliver them from the Gentiles, when the Gentiles’ time has been fulfilled. This is precisely the same script we see in Daniel 11-12, as well as the same script we see in Zechariah 14, where God brings the Gentiles against Jerusalem in order to judge Jerusalem, only immediately to turn around and wipe out the Gentiles for doing so, ushering in an era of everlasting peace for Jerusalem and God’s people, and the worldwide hegemony of Israel. This is precisely what we see in Luke 21.
comment : clearly gospel writers were linking to a soon to happen “prophecy” in their times. they were using old testament to reinforce their faith that god was going to deliver them .
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“So, the verse (Mark 13:30; Matthew 24:34) is not embarrassing, when you study things more deeply and see that Jesus did predict 70 AD and the destruction of the temple and it came true about 40 years later after He said it; and that He will still come again on the clouds literally at His second coming. So the OT and NT Scriptures are true and communicate the truth of Jesus, who is the Truth, the way to God, and the life. (John 14:6)”
yes, scholars have studied things more deeply and came to a conclusion that :
Imminence: And when is all this going to happen? Like other apocalypticists, Jesus maintained that it would take place very soon. It is right around the corner. It will happen within his disciples’ lifetimes: “Truly I tell you, some of you standing here will not taste death before they see that the Kingdom of God has come in power” (Mark 9:1); “Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away before all these things take place” (Mark 13:30).
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Mark 9:1 is answered in Mark 9:2-13
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exposed :
The reference to angels is in Mark 8:38 which actually goes with Mark 9:1. You must read this without the chapter headings which were added by those who couldn’t buy any errors and therefore decided that even though ch 9 vs 1
started with “and” and even though the content of the verse spoke of Jesus return and elaborated on vs 38 of ch 9,
we CAN’T let that happen because we know that they ALL died and Jesus apparently hasn’t returned and THAT would make him a false prophet or just simply, a liar.
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Mark 8:38
is about the context before; and that one is about the second coming.
Mark 9:1 starts a new subject. In the Transfiguration, Jesus gives a glimpse of His power and glory before the time.
For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”
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“Mark 8:38
is about the context before; and that one is about the second coming.
Mark 9:1 starts a new subject. In the Transfiguration, Jesus gives a glimpse of His power and glory before the time.
For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”
why would Jesus say that some wouldn’t taste death before seeing him “transfigured” if he meant to take them there only 6 days later? That’s like saying “some here will not die until halftime” at a large football game.
The INTENDED meaning is that although Jesus’ return
wouldn’t happen for probably many years, SOME of those hearing him then would still be alive to see it – hence the repeated warnings to his
disciples to be on the alert for his return.
Since Mark 8:38 and 9:1 are clearly linked by their content (not the
arbitrary chapter divisions put there by biased Christians), where are the
angels Jesus said would be at the transfiguration?
jesus’ deciples will see
“YOU will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.”
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“Also, Isaiah 19:1 says that “the Lord rides on a cloud” – obviously it is not meant to be taken literally, but it apocalyptic language that shows that God is coming to judge Egypt and the idols of Egypt.”
“Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”;
are you saying that the piercing is not to be taken literally?
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Revelation 1:7 is a different context; quoting from Daniel 7:13-14 and Zechariah 12:10 – but Gentry and DeMar think that is about 70 AD also; but I don’t agree with them on that.
Jesus said that Daniel 7:13-14 is about His ascension to heaven and session at the right hand of God the Father – Mark 14:60-64.
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lol, forget it man. this is just a joke. make up a bible and add in the gospel according to ken temple.
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if christians could see a physical flesh god getting pierced, then they could imagine a flesh god, like baal, coming on the clouds. they could see a physical flesh god in real time. jesus did not bring in world peace, he did not save the elect, he did not destroy jerusalems enemies , he himself was destroyed by pagans.
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well, the disciples did see Jesus literally ascend into heaven on a cloud – Acts chapter 1:1-11.
And Jesus spoke of His ascension into heaven and sitting at the right hand of the Father – Mark 14:6-64; Daniel 7:13-14; Psalm 110:1.
It is just that Isaiah 19:1 and Matthew 24:29-31 is not about that.
Isaiah 19:1 is not about that, for sure.
Matthew 24:29-31 could have double meaning, both 70 AD, and also a future tribulation and about the literal second coming.
Different contexts.
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anytime jesus makes false predictions take him out of real time and history and place him outside of history.
did early christians think they would see jeezer return in real time and history?
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Part 2 of Dr. White’s analysis of the election and Donald Trump, etc.
Please listen to both parts in order to understand many American Christians better.
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did you vote for the woman grabber or hilary?
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Intellect,
I missed one of your replies to me the other week, as I had a busy weekend – I have since replied: https://bloggingtheology.net/2016/11/14/was-rebekah-3-10-years-old-when-married-off-to-isaac/#comments
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Behold, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt;
The idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence,
And the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.
Isaiah 19:1
This about God’s judgement on Egypt and her idols. It is not literal, (Yahweh does not literally ride on a cloud) but is apocalyptic language describing the coming judgment on Egypt. God ordaining that other nations (Assyria and Babylon) to come and conquer Egypt and Israel was a “coming” in judgment.
The same is applied to Matthew 23:36-39 and 24:1-34 – the Romans and 70 AD was a “coming” in judgment on apostate Israel because they rejected the Messiah and fell away from their God.
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“This about God’s judgement on Egypt and her idols. It is not literal, (Yahweh does not literally ride on a cloud) but is apocalyptic language describing the coming judgment on Egypt. God ordaining that other nations (Assyria and Babylon) to come and conquer Egypt and Israel was a “coming” in judgment.”
does yhwh literally get pierced?
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Zechariah 12:10 is about the cross – John 19:37 – proves Jesus is Yahweh in the flesh.
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Denny Burk also expressed my views very well. (he was interviewed at the end of the video)
Lots of more conservative Christians could not vote for either one of the two major candidates.
We had to write in a different candidate all together.
http://www.dennyburk.com/an-interview-with-nightline-about-a-candidate-who-is-outside-the-normal-bounds-of-unacceptability/#more-33494
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Isaiah 19:1
This about God’s judgement on Egypt and her idols. It is not literal, (Yahweh does not literally ride on a cloud) but is apocalyptic language describing the coming judgment on Egypt
but you must continue on reading
quote:
19In that day there will be an altar to the Lord in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the Lord at its border. 20It will be a sign and witness to the Lord Almighty in the land of Egypt. When they cry out to the Lord because of their oppressors, he will send them a savior and defender, and he will rescue them. 21So the Lord will make himself known to the Egyptians, and in that day they will acknowledge the Lord. They will worship with sacrifices and grain offerings; they will make vows to the Lord and keep them. 22The Lord will strike Egypt with a plague; he will strike them and heal them. They will turn to the Lord, and he will respond to their pleas and heal them.
.
end quote
Do not lose faith by a delay of 2500 years that no one has come, or, according to the NT 2000 years or more. Rev 22:6-7… And he said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place.” “And behold, I am coming soon….”
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Ken Temple
December 2, 2016 • 4:59 pm
Mark 9:1 is answered in Mark 9:2-13
exposed :
The reference to angels is in Mark 8:38 which actually goes with Mark 9:1. You must read this without the chapter headings which were added by those who couldn’t buy any errors and therefore decided that even though ch 9 vs 1
started with “and” and even though the content of the verse spoke of Jesus return and elaborated on vs 38 of ch 9,
we CAN’T let that happen because we know that they ALL died and Jesus apparently hasn’t returned and THAT would make him a false prophet or just simply, a liar.
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“Zechariah 12:10 is about the cross – John 19:37 – proves Jesus is Yahweh in the flesh.”
so you agree that early christians could see a flesh god riding on clouds in real time, like baal was riding on clouds in real time?
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well, the disciples did see Jesus literally ascend into heaven on a cloud – Acts chapter 1:1-11.
And Jesus spoke of His ascension into heaven and sitting at the right hand of the Father – Mark 14:6-64; Daniel 7:13-14; Psalm 110:1.
It is just that Isaiah 19:1 and Matthew 24:29-31 is not about that.
Isaiah 19:1 is not about that, for sure.
Matthew 24:29-31 could have double meaning, both 70 AD, and also a future tribulation and about the literal second coming.
Different contexts.
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Jesus said the Son of Man event would take place in the lifetime of the High Priest (Mark 14:62) which failed to happen because the High Priest long passed away and Jesus never returned. He specifically said the High Priest himself would witness it. He leaves no room before the fulfillment of the signs and the Son of Man event, after the Kingdom was de-apocalypticized by the late Fourth Gospel by the early Second Century (“My kingdom is not of this world”) the Son of Man event was postponed into the distant future. Jesus explicitly said tbose STANDING before him will not taste death before ALL those signs are fulfilled. If Jesus was talking about the destruction of Jerusalem that happened a GENERATION later he said “Immediately after those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken” (Matt. 24:29) which pointed imminently to the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with the angels. Jesus made a rational judgment and anticipated that Rome would eventually destroy Jerusalem because of the constant trouble caused by the Zealots, he made a false prophecy because the Son of Man did not return shortly after 70 CE but the Jerusalem Church permanently collapsed and never recovered. Jesus said the heavenly bodies will be shaken and the stars will fall from heaven, that was not fulfilled in the lifetime of that generation. If Jesus was really predicting the destruction of Jerusalem how could ALL of those signs be fulfilled (Matt. 24:4-29) in that extremely short time frame (30-70)? The early Christians didn’t believe that Jesus would return centuries later, they expected him to return atleast before the century closed, namely the Evangelists. That is why Matthew is filled with apocalyptic sayings about abandoning the world was giving everything to the poor. During the Great disappointment the Fourth Gospel replaced the ‘Kingdom of God’ with ‘eternal life” and Christians started to organize into a permanent Church. cludes himself as the sign before the End that people would witness, those literally standing before him. Therefore within his lifetime. The Kingdom of God was originally associated with the Son of Man event but when Christians found it too embarrassing to talk about Jesus’ second coming after the destruction of Jerusalem they spiriualized the Kingdom to make it seem Jesus was talking about the church. That is why Luke’s gospel (17:20-22) attempted to redefine the Kingdom as a spiritual presence within. The Markan saying 14:62 (“You will see the Son Of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One”) was changed to “FROM NOW ON the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the Mighty One”) because Luke’s author knew
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“the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”
lukes version :
“the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the power of God.”
every scholar believes the gospels are refutation of each other.
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Mark 14:62 is not about Jesus’ second coming, but about His ascension into heaven and sitting at the right hand of God the Father.
“one like a son of man, who came up to the Ancient of Days”
Daniel 7:13-14
It is about going up to heaven, not coming back from heaven.
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“And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
It’s says ‘coming’ not ‘going up’ to heaven. And the High Priest would see this coming (which of course he didn’t hence the error).
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“I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.
Daniel 7:13-14
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But that passage is not quoted by Jesus in Mark. And the words just do not match. You are forcing your interpretation upon the clear words of Jesus. This is the quote you are ignoring:
“And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
See the difference?
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And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
Jesus quotes the first two lines, and He expects you to go to Daniel and see the third line.
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but he does not quote the third line. He says the son of man will come on the clouds – ie return to earth.
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He expects you to go to Daniel and see the third line.
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does he? Then why does he say something different?
“And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
It’s says ‘coming’ not ‘going up’ to heaven. And the High Priest would see this coming (which of course he didn’t hence the error).
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“He expects you to go to Daniel and see the third line.”
when daniels son of man appears what does he DO?
jesus thought he was going to bring judgement and saving, but daniels “one like a son of man” what does he do ?
williams said :
But that passage is not quoted by Jesus in Mark
because mark knew the “son of man” in dan is not one who comes with judgement.
26 Then they will see ‘the son of man coming in clouds’ with great power and glory. 27 Then he will send out the angels, and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”
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I cannot help it if you want to be lazy. Many OT quotes in the NT function that way – the first century Jews expected their readers to look up the references and study the deeper context.
for example, in Matthew 24:15
15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
He expects the reader to go study Daniel and what Daniel says about the abomination of desolations (at least 3 times in Daniel)
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you have not explained why what Jesus says is different from your quote. Explain!
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24 “But in those days, after that suffering,
ken, what jesus meant to say here was that they would continue in their suffering or pretend in their minds that they are in heaven even when they are suffering?
“Now when these things begin to take place, stand up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
but you said :
Jesus said in the NT that He was “coming quickly” to several of the churches in Asia Minor in Revelation chapters 2-3, but not physically, rather coming in a sense of judgment in allowing other nations to conquer them.
so the SUFFERING would continue
no redemption. no liberation. so why did he say “after that suffering”
what would be the POINT?
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You are getting a complete pasting here ken. It is like watching a car crash, I literally have looked away from the screen and grimaced at the utter embarrassment you are.
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I don’t agree. No one has offered anything that deals with the revelation (the previous Scriptures are revelation from God – وحی
الهام
نزول
“came down”
John 1:1-5
John 1:14
Philippians 2:5-8
these are divine revelation; that reveal that God (the Son, the Word, the 2nd person of the Trinity) can become a human if wants to and you have no argument against that.
And He died for sins.
And His love is great for us human sinners.
All you guys have done is say “you are embarressing”, etc. “immature”, “getting pasted”, etc.
Just because you don’t accept God’s power – He can do that.
Jesus was born of the virgin Mary. (Luke 1:34-35; Surah 3; Surah 19)
Jesus was the eternal Word. John 1:1-5
The Word became human. John 1:14
Christ died for sinners. Romans 5:6-11
Christ rose from the dead. Luke 24
Repent and believe. Mark 1:15
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My answer was suppossed to be on another thread. Anyway, I don’t agree with that either; as I have demonstrated that Daniel 7:13-14 and Mark 14:60-64 is about Jesus ascension, and vindication as Lord at the right hand of the Father, and that He is now ruling over all kingdoms, in sovereign power. Nothing that happens in history is shocking to God. Revelation 5 shows that the Father and the Son are working out their eternal plan in history. people are still being saved by the blood of the lamb. (Rev. 5:5-6, 5:9)
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‘you will see the son of man
seated at the right hand of the Power,’
and ‘coming with the clouds of heaven.’”
‘the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven’ with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other
For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man
“Immediately after the suffering of those days
So also, when you see all these things, you know that he[g] is near, at the very gates. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.
Keep awake therefore, for you do not know on what day[i] your Lord is coming. 43 But understand this: if the owner of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an unexpected hour.
So when you see the desolating sacrilege standing in the holy place
then those in Judea must flee to the mountains
Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a sabbath.
//////////////////////////
it’s over ken, these are the words of falsehood.
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He quoted the first two lines in Daniel 7:13-14 and expects a Jew to know the rest or look it up; and also from Psalm 110:1
It is about His ruling and reigning at the right hand of God the Father, not about His second coming.
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Christ has been ruling and reigning at the right hand of the Father since His ascension back into heaven.
Revelation chapter 5 (notice the parallels with Daniel 7:13-14)
5 I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals.
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?” 3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it. 4 Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; 5 and one of the elders *said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.”
6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. 7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.
8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they *sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
10 “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”
Angels Exalt the Lamb
11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice,
“Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”
13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,
“To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”
14 And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.
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so what was the high priest to see?
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R. T. France comments: (commentary on Mark)
“Daniel 7:13-14 is in other words, no less than Psalm 110:1, an enthronement oracle, and it is that universal and unending dominion which Jesus here declares that he himself will now receive – and they will see it. How they will see it is not spelled out. But when the prisoner about to be condemned and executed declares that his judges will see his God-given authority, we are clearly in the realm of vindication, a vindication which was to begin with Jesus’ resurrection and according to Luke [Luke 24:51-53 and Acts 1:1-11] to be more visibly confirmed by his ascension (seen, however, like his resurrection not by the Sanhedrin, but by his disciples).” (pages 612-613)
The “seeing” is meaning the experiencing of God’s vindication of Jesus by the resurrection, ascension, and ruling, and then 40 years later, the judgement on Israel and destruction of the temple in 70 AD.
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ken quoted r t france
to support his understanding
but academic biblical says:
Wright’s (and others’) views here have been vigorously contested by Dale Allison, Edward Adams, et al.
“vigorously CONTESTED…”
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Josephus mentions some incredible signs in the sky at the time of the destruction of the temple in 70 AD.
Josephus, Wars of the Jews 1:453-454
It is too much to type out; but R. C. Sproul provides those quotes in his book, The Last Days According to Jesus, pages 121-124.
Gentry, DeMar, and Sproul all quotes these sections as what Jesus is referring to as a coming in judgment in 70 AD as to what Matthew 24:29-31 means.
https://books.google.com/books?id=0I50CgAAQBAJ&pg=PA233&lpg=PA233&dq=Josephus+Wars+of+the+Jews,+1:453-+454&source=bl&ots=ZRPOPFLBlW&sig=1lJszK0gcahkDm6Hntjf0Vumu1M&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj9vZ-sqdbQAhUDKyYKHcmJACEQ6AEIGzAA#v=onepage&q=Josephus%20Wars%20of%20the%20Jews%2C%201%3A453-%20454&f=false
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see also here for extended quotes from Josephus. (pages 121-124 of Sproul’s book)
https://books.google.com/books?id=0I50CgAAQBAJ&pg=PA233&lpg=PA233&dq=Josephus+Wars+of+the+Jews,+1:453-+454&source=bl&ots=ZRPOPFLBlW&sig=1lJszK0gcahkDm6Hntjf0Vumu1M&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj9vZ-sqdbQAhUDKyYKHcmJACEQ6AEIGzAA#v=onepage&q=%20stars%2C%20comets%2C%20lights&f=false
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I mention the books by Kenneth Gentry, Gary DeMar, and R. C. Sproul in my article, “Jesus always spoke the truth”
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2012/04/05/jesus-always-spoke-the-truth/
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“So when you see the desolating sacrilege standing in the holy place, as was spoken of by the prophet Daniel…”
“24 “But in those days, after that suffering,”
quote:
And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
who are part of the suffering in verse 24?
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“Ken, you’ve done well to show the lazy and incorrect babbling of the liberal mindset.”
“And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
“and they will see ‘the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven’ with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
so it only seems logical to assume that those who heard jesus make false prophecies , thought they would be part of the action.
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Notice that Tacitus also mentions the same things that Josephus did. (see the pages in Sproul’s book)
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The seven year war was indeed a great tribulation and suffering on the Jewish people. ( 66 AD – 73 AD – ended with 400 Jews committing suicide on the Mount of Masada in 73 AD)
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quote:
38If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”
1And he said to them, “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.”
////////////////
And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
“and they will see ‘the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven’ with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
/////////////////////////
it doesn’t get any clear than this. these are false predictions. no redemption came. no everlasting peace came. no gathering of the elect came.
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quote:
Then let those in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city. 22For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written
vengeance
1.
infliction of injury, harm, humiliation, or the like, on a person by another who has been harmed by that person; violent revenge:
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Luke 21:22
For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written
vengeance
The 7 year war against Israel was God’s judgment on apostate Israel for rejecting the Messiah, their own God.
It was God’s justice and vengeance. God used the Romans to judge apostate Israel.
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sorry man worshipper . the reason for the destruction was idolatry
“The Torah warns us time and time again against idolatry and tells us to follow the one true G-d. Yet in the Second Temple period many Jews were very Hellenized and followed the ways of the Greeks and Romans. You’ll find warnings of this in Isaiah, Ezekiel and other prophets. “Change your ways or you will go the way of Israel (the northner kingdom).”
if jesus was telling them repent, repent repent, then he was telling them to repent from sins which lead to worshipping human beings.
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quote:
If you read what the pagans wrote about the Jews, it wasn’t the Jews’ monotheism that they found odd. It’s the fact that the Jewish temple had no god inside of it. That is to say, the Jews didn’t represent their god with some form of statue or image. The Holy of Holies in the Temple was literally empty. The notion of an all-powerful Creator godhead wasn’t that odd to the pagans. The lack of a physical representation is what the pagans found odd.
end quote
and what did ken just say? he wants christians going to the temple and imagining that yhwh was a flesh god!
look at his words
“their own god”
how could this not be disgusting idolatry? a man who urinates, excretes, breath , eats, drinks , passes wind, you made him your VISIBLE god!
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any gods in pagan religions of the past which
1. did not sleep
2. did not eat
3. had power over nature
4. did not die (in the flesh)
5. and were able to control everything even when they appeared like humans?
Bart October 4, 2016
They did eat, have power, and were immortal. None of them could control everything though.
ken, you are an idol worshipper.
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Luke 9:28-36 explains Luke 9:27. It is the same meaning as Mark’s in Mark 9.
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“3 But understand this: if the owner of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an unexpected hour.”
Do not lose faith by a delay of 2500 years that no one has come, or, according to the NT 2000 years or more. Rev 22:6-7… And he said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place.” “And behold, I am coming soon….”
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not only is jesus is ignorant of the our but also ignorant of when they would flee :
Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a sabbath.
if he knew they would flee in winter, he would say “pray that you will bear your suffering”
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quote:
….until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
quote:
Now when these things begin to take place, stand up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
who is “your”
he is referring to the disciples
when the gentiles time is up in jerusalem, what will happen to them and what does “scripture” say?
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“He quoted the first two lines in Daniel 7:13-14 and expects a Jew to know the rest or look it up; and also from Psalm 110:1”
what happens after yhwhs enemies are defeated?
5 The Lord is at your right hand ; he will crush kings on the day of his wrath. 6 He will judge the nations, heaping up the dead and crushing the rulers of the whole earth. 7 He will drink from a brook along the way,and so he will lift his head high.
so what will happen after all this crushing ?
what did your “messiah” say
Now when these things begin to take place, stand up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
he thought, in his disciples life time, would come about everlasting peace.
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“The seven year war was indeed a great tribulation and suffering on the Jewish people. ( 66 AD – 73 AD – ended with 400 Jews committing suicide on the Mount of Masada in 73 AD)”
” For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 2″
he then says
29 “Immediately after the suffering of those days
i quote :
Do not lose faith by a delay of 2500 years that no one has come, or, according to the NT 2000 years or more. Rev 22:6-7… And he said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place.” “And behold, I am coming soon….”
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quote:
Mark 8:38
is about the context before; and that one is about the second coming.
Mark 9:1 starts a new subject. In the Transfiguration, Jesus gives a glimpse of His power and glory before the time.
”
For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”
And he said to them, “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.”
LUKES version
Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
27“Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.”
luke did not start a new subject. whatever was in front of luke, there was no indication that it was linked to 6 days later.
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Luke’s version is the same meaning as Mark.
You failed to prove anything.
Luke 9:28-36 explains Luke 9:27
Jesus gave them a glimpse of the kingdom of God, a taste of it and its power, but not the full force of it at the second coming in Luke 9:26.
Luke 9:26 is about the second coming – the kingdom of God in fullness and judgment.
Luke 9:28-36 is just a small taste of the King and His kingdom.
Jesus exposed His radiance and glory and nature, by His glowing and transfiguration.
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“Jesus gave them a glimpse of the kingdom of God, a taste of it and its power, but not the full force of it at the second coming in Luke 9:26.”
why do you say these things?
1
Six days later
2.
As they were coming down the mountain, he ordered them to tell no one about what they had seen
1 And he said to them, “Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come with[a] power.”
not only no “kingdom of god” came with power, the disciples started to ask:
So they kept the matter to themselves, questioning what this rising from the dead could mean
apparently the “kingdom of god” did not illuminate their minds. they were told to keep silent about it.
those who were spoken to 6 days before were still standing .
“kingdom of god coming with power”
obviously is connected to these verses
“At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.”
but like i said before, everyone died, so those who compiled the new testament separated the verses from the context .
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“You failed to prove anything.”
https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/
you reduce “kingdom of god” to ” glimpse of the kingdom of God, a taste of it”
okay, lets get your bs checked and see if people agree with it.
lets start a thread on academic biblical.
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I don’t think that books like this will actually succeed in their intent to quash fundamentalism. Because what it does is falsely conflate it and Orthodox Christian belief as if they were one and the same. Fundamentalism very rarely these days possesses a meaningful definition but instead is simply a term to denote displeasure with another persons position as ‘extreme’.
Fundamentalism as a movement began in the late 19th to early 20th century America which came about largely in response to modernity namely the rise of acceptance of Darwins theory of evolution as this was seen as a threat to the established meta-narrative. In that sense it is both a social and religious movement. However fundamentalism is shaped differently depending on what religion and each movement have their own history, would the Islamic version of this be Wahabism? Imagine if a book was released seeking to overturn the puritanical (literal meaning of the word) interpretation of Islam by declaring the Qur’an purely a human work which must be understood only within the cultural and historical context, ignoring the spiritual dimension.
It would be like providing Muslims only two options, either blind literalism or restriction of the Qur’ans universal importance.In truth there is one option that has not been considered in the discussion of this thread. What about the interpretive tradition of the Church? Where these issues have been hashed out for centuries and can temper the fundamentalists from approaching the scriptures and interpreting them without knowledge. Why should we assume that Sola Scriptura is a neccessary principle when the whole of Christian history would resist this?
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Steve Hays at Triablogue refuted a lot of what Thom Stark has written
(thanks to Sam Shamoun for the link)
The debate does continue indeed:
http://triablogue.blogspot.com/search?q=%22Thom+Stark%22#
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ken, did you go through all of these responses
http://humanfacesofgod.com/?page_id=11
i will be.
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It would be honest Biblical scholarship on the part of conservatives to admit that Jesus made a false prophecy according to the Gospels. This is simply allowing the scripture to speak for itself. Quite positively, the views of the conservative scholars is gradually inclining towards the liberal conclusions. For example, Larry Hurtado admits that Jesus never claimed to be God and didn’t consider himself to be God. Richard Baukam admits the I AM sayings in the Fourth Gospel is not authentic. The whole New Testament seems to anticipatory build-up leading towards Jesus’ second coming. It was supposed to be a completely sudden Cosmic event, immediately after the signs were fulfilled. This would explain why Christians found no purpose in committing Jesus’ words and deeds to paper, they expected him to return any moment. The expectations of the early Christian community only declined towards the Late First Century, that is why John replaces the term ‘Kingdom of God’ with “eternal life” and changed Jesus’ story in radical ways. Mark and Matthew are apocalyptic by dressing Jesus’ words in the clothing of emergency. The Markan Jesus was talking about his second coming after he already ascended to heaven and sat on the Father’s hand. Mark 14:62 cannot be talking about Jesus’ ascension, the passage must be understood in the light of Matt. 24:29-30 and vice versa:
IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
AND THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: AND THEN shall ALL THE TRIBES OF THE EARTH mourn, and they SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matthew 24:30-31)
The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom every cause of sin and all who practice lawlessness. And they will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun IN THE KINGDOM of their Father. (Matt. 13:41-43)
Where does Josephus mention the stars (meteorites) falling from heaven? Jesus was supposed to return IMMEDIATELY after that, sending out his angels, etc. The destruction of Jerusalem was considered the ‘end of the world’ by the common people but Jesus did not return. The word “immediately” is significant because it precedes “THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man” and they shall SEE (with their physical eyes) him coming on the clouds of heaven. All of this is supposed to take in the first century. The word “coming” (Mk. 14:62) is also significant, it appears in the following verses that obviously refers to Jesus’ second coming–not ascension:
“Look, I am COMING soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy written in this scroll.” (Rev. 22:7)
I am COMING soon. Hold fast to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. (Rev. 3:11)
“Behold, I am COMING like a thief. Blessed is the one who remains awake and clothed, so that he will not go naked and let his shame be exposed.” (Rev. 16:15)
for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. (1 Thess. 5:2)
“Behold, I am COMING quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each person according to what he has done. (Rev. 22:12)
When the passage Mark 14:62 is understood in the light of these verses it becomes Jesus is talking about the Second Coming, which completely failed. If Jesus is talking about a “spiritual seeing” (as Ken suggests) why does he specifically address the High Priest? Jesus says the High Priest is going to see the Son of Man himself, it was something personal. We cannot project the death and resurrection into the saying. We must allow the passage to speak for itself.
But Jesus remained silent and made no reply. Again the high priest questioned Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” I am, said Jesus, “AND YOU (the High Priest) will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and COMING with the clouds of heaven.” (Mark 14:61-62)
The same word “coming” is used, referring to the Second Advent (that never happened as expected), not the Ascension. The High Priest long passed away and never witnessed the event. If Jesus was talking about the Ascension (14:62) did the High Priest witness that? No, only the Disciples witnessed it. There is a contradiction about when Jesus ascended, was it the same day he resurrected or FORTY DAYS later?
“Let me stress that Luke continues to think that the end of the age is going to come in his own lifetime. But he does not seem to think that it was supposed to come in the lifetime of Jesus’ companions. Why not? Evidently because he was writing after they had died, and he knew that in fact the end did not come. To deal with the ‘delay of the end’, he made the appropriate changes in Jesus’ predictions. This is evident as well near the end of the Gospel. At Jesus’ trial before the Sanhedrin in Mark’s Gospel, Jesus boldly states to the high priest, “You will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of power and coming with the clouds of heaven” (Mark 14:562). That is, the end would come and the high priest would see it. Luke, writing many years later, after the high priest was long dead and buried, changes the saying: “from now son the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the power of God” (Luke 22:39). No longer does Jesus predict that the high priest himself will be alive when the end comes.
Here, then, is a later source that appears to have modified the earlier apocalyptic sayings of Jesus. You can see the same tendency in the Gospel of John, the last of our canonical accounts to be written. In this account, rather than speaking about the Kingdom of God that is soon to some (which is never spoken of here), Jesus talks about eternal life that is available here and now for the believer. The Kingdom is not the future, it is available in the present, for all who have faith in Jesus…There is no longer an apocalyptic message about the coming Son of Man. The emphasis now is on faith in Jesus who gives eternal life in the present. This world is not going to enter a crisis at the end of the world before being redeemed. This “de-apocalypticizing” of Jesus’ message continues into the second century…” (Bart Ehrman, Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium, Oxford University Press, 1999, opp 130-131)
There are other passages where Jesus speaks about his ascension and Mark 14:62 is NOT one of them:
It was just before the Passover Festival. Jesus knew that the hour had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end. (John 13:1)
I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.” (John 16:28)
Jesus replied, “Even if I testify about Myself, My testimony is valid, because I know where I came from and where I am going. But you do not know where I came from or where I am going. (John 8:14)
Jesus said the Disciples wouldn’t finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes, meaning he would return suddenly:
When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes. (Matt. 10:23)
The book of Daniel actually disproves Jesus’ godhood because he was presented TO THE ANCIENT OF DAYS, meaning he wasn’t God Himself:
“I continued to observe the night vision—and look!—someone like the Son of Man was coming, accompanied by heavenly clouds. He approached the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. (Dan. 7:13)
The book of Revelation subordinates Jesus to God the Father:
The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of MY GOD, and he will never again leave it. Upon him I will write the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God (the new Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven from My God), and My new name (Rev. 3:12)
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Wow! Brilliant
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ken temples , if those who fled to the mountains obeyed and did flee, then they also thought that if they died they would soon be resurrected .
they thought d.o.j was very soon, but:
Do not lose faith by a delay of 2500 years that no one has come, or, according to the NT 2000 years or more. Rev 22:6-7… And he said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place.” “And behold, I am coming soon….”
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Could not have put it better myself:
Preface
I am a Christian. Sure, not by fundamentalists’ standards, but I’m
a Christian nonetheless. I say this at the outset because I don’t
want my intentions to be misunderstood. In critiquing Paul Copan’s
apologetic defences of our frequently morally problematic
Bible, my aim is not to turn anybody away from the Christian
faith. In fact, I am critical of apologetic attempts to sweep the Bible’s
horror texts under the rug precisely because I believe such
efforts are damaging to the church and to Christian theology, not
to mention to our moral sensibilities.
Books like Copan’s, in my opinion, will only take Christianity
ten steps backwards. Contemporary popular apologists tend to
look for any way to salvage the text, no matter how unlikely or
untenable the argument. They’ll use scholarly sources selectively,
or pounce on one scholar’s argument and run away with it, without
any concern for the fact the vast majority of scholars haven’t
been persuaded by it. They don’t often make arguments for
what’s plausible, preferring to argue for what’s “possible,” if it
serves their immediate purposes. They trade in eisegesis, wild
speculation, and fanciful interpretations, reading into the text
what isn’t there, indeed, what’s often contradicted by the very
passages they cite.
Sums up christian apologists and their deceit-laden hypocrisy, exquisitely
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Guys, a Serious question here…
When do we cross the line of not insulting Jesus (AS) by reading the abomination that is the NT? All these false prophecies and other embarrassments that are being attributed to our beloved prophet is surely the work of the antichrist or Satan. Who else would say these things and falsify scriptures to say these things?? It feels like we are giving it attention and exposure it simply does not deserve.
Really I urge everyone to stop and think both christians who claim to be sincere and Muslims.
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