idolatry
ʌɪˈdɒlətri/Submit
noun
the worship of idols.
quote:
form worship
From this passage, we see two explicit themes:
1. G-d is explicitly commanding Israel not to worship Him in any form. (Deut 4:16)
2. G-d is explicitly commanding Israel to teach this to their children and their children’s children, even after they come to the land of Israel. (Deut 4:9-14)
So this isn’t just a “one time deal” command, Lion…This prohibition against form worship extends to this very day!
It is important to note that this is not simply explicit to “man made forms.” Did G-d create Adam, the first man? Yes…But WOULD G-d appear in the form of Adam? Of course not! Same thing with the “first lizard,” or the “first fish.” How do we know this? Deut 4:16! We are not to worship G-d in ANY FORM.
Likewise, your jesus was a man. Your jesus was a form. Hashem explicitly forbids Israel from worshipping Him in ANY FORM.
Thus, your jesus cannot be “god in the flesh.” On the contrary, your jesus is not Hashem. Hashem clearly states that it is idolatry to worship Him in any form. Thus, your worship of jesus is idolatry.
Also keep in mind that the “sun, the moon, and the whole host of heaven,” were not “man made” either, so please do not make the pitiful argument that your jeezer is immune to this prohibition because he is supposedly “uncreated.” (Which you have no means of proving.) A form is a form is a form!
At the end of the day, Deut 4:9-19 what we are to go by. If you wish to eisegetically abuse scripture and assume that “let us make man in our image” refers to your jeezer, then that’s your idolatrous prerogative.
G-d gave Israel explicit instructions not to worship Him in ANY FORM. Deut 4:9-19 isn’t going away…Sorry!
There was a news story in my city, which reported that someone had stolen the baby Jesus from the nativity scene displayed outside in front of a poor woman’s house. She decried the foul criminal act by saying, “how can we celebrate Christmas without baby Jesus?!” and further lamented that, “what is the sense in displaying Mary and Joseph without baby Jesus?!”
The woman seemed to truly believe that since someone had stolen her God baby, and there was no benefit in celebrating the holiday as it was pointless. She could not seem to separate real Prophet Jesus from a gaudy, tacky looking, cheap plastic imitation, nor did she consider it a sacrilege to set up an Idol upon her front lawn where her “God” along with Joseph and Mary would be in danger of being disrespected or desecrated by those with ill intentions.
How many more pitiful souls like her have been misled by Christian innovation and Idolatry?
“No; because no human being could come up with these mysterious truths that confound your mind. It is God’s revelation of Himself; not man seeking to understand God or make God more understandable.”
the pagan religions inspired your religion.
how many gods took on human form to connect with the people?
quote:
In response, an anonymous poet wrote a hymn celebrating the actions and character of Demetrius, associating him with the great goddess of Greece, Demeter. Here is an extract of his hymn:
The greatest among the gods have drawn close to our city…
Both Demeter and Demetrius…
Hail to you, O Son of the mighty god Poseidon and of Aphrodite.
The other gods dwell so far away,
or else they have no ears,
or they do not exist, or do not care at all about us
We see you in our midst,
not a wooden or stone presence, but bodily
And so we pray to you… bring about peace
for you are the Lord (κύριος)
Notice what is said of Demetrius. He is one of the “greatest gods,” the son of God” (specifically of the gods Poseidon and Aphrodite), one who is “near” his own people – not remote, off on Mount Olympus, the one who “brings peace,” who can be called “Lord.”
These ascriptions to Demetrius should sound familiar to anyone who knows about early Christianity, where Jesus too was known as the incarnation of a divine being, the Son of God, the bringer of peace, the Lord, and God in the flesh. My ultimate point: Jesus was not the first to be called such things, or thought to be a kind of incarnation of the divine. He had predecessors.
+ The gods in Greek and Roman thought were considered to be superhuman. Unlike, say, the (animal-shaped) gods of Egypt, the Greek and Roman gods were literally in human form. When they appeared here on earth to humans they were often “bigger than life,” but they could assume regular human form when they wanted to and they were human-shaped even when attending to their heavenly duties. In the Greek and Roman myths, they acted in human ways, they experienced the range of human emotions, they manifested human foibles, and so on.
:::::::::::
Jeremiah 2:5New International Version (NIV)
5 This is what the Lord says:
“What fault did your ancestors find in me,
that they strayed so far from me?
They followed worthless idols
and became worthless themselves.
” It is God’s revelation of Himself; not man seeking to understand God or make God more understandable”
jesus had a wound in his side and was poked by thomas.
judaism :
If you read what the pagans wrote about the Jews, it wasn’t the Jews’ monotheism that they found odd. It’s the fact that the Jewish temple had no god inside of it. That is to say, the Jews didn’t represent their god with some form of statue or image. The Holy of Holies in the Temple was literally empty. The notion of an all-powerful Creator godhead wasn’t that odd to the pagans. The lack of a physical representation is what the pagans found odd.
can you explain why thomas would not have become a pagan the moment he assumed that an injured man before him was yhwh?
thomas spat at judaism in his time IF he had done the action of worshipping a wounded creature.
5 This is what the Lord says:
“What fault did your ancestors find in me,
that they strayed so far from me?
They followed worthless idols
and became worthless themselves.
quote:
because God is the ultimate source of provision, mercy, forgiveness, etc., when it comes to prayer He should be asked directly
He does not require an intermediary because He directly hears, sees, and has full knowledge and control over all that happens while relying on an intermediary can result in putting tawakkul in, attributing powers to, and even worshiping that intermediary instead of God Himself
that was the same argument the pagans and Christians made for using idols or saints as intercessors
the Qur’an responds that God is closer to you than your jugular vein meaning even though He is transcendent, He is also imminent through His knowledge and compassion for His creatures
it’s very simple – therefore you don’t need intermediaries, God to become incarnate, etc.
idolatry
ʌɪˈdɒlətri/Submit
noun
the worship of idols.
synonyms: idol worship, idolatrism, fetishism, iconolatry, icon worship; More
extreme admiration, love, or reverence for something or someone.
the boy is god but the women who carried him isn’t ?
quote:
Theotokos (Greek Θεοτόκος Greek pronunciation: [θeoˈtokos]) is a title of Mary, mother of Jesus, used especially in Eastern Christianity. The usual Latin translations, Dei Genetrix or Deipara (approximately “parent (fem.) of God”), are translated as “Mother of God” or “God-bearer”.
Did you ever think to check Deuteronomy 4:19 and how the WHOLE HOST OF HEAVEN is prohibited from being worshiped by G-d Himself?!
Deut 4:19. And lest you lift up your eyes to heaven, and see the sun, and the moon, and the stars, all the host (צְבָא) of heaven, which the Lord your God assigned to all peoples under the entire heaven, and be drawn away to prostrate yourselves before them and worship them.
This utterly destroys any attempt by you or anyone else who wants to insist that the angel described in Joshua 5:14 is actually a “preincarnatejesus angel.” The angel is described as “the captain of the Lord’s **HOST.*” Literally, the same Hebrew word for “host” (צְבָא) is used in Deuteronomy 4:19 concerning the prohibition of the worship of ALL THE **HOST (צְבָא)** OF HEAVEN. This prohibition obviously includes the “captain of the Lord’s HOST (צְבָא)” mentioned in Joshua 5:14. This means that the “captain of the Lord’s HOST (צְבָא)” mentioned in Joshua 5:14 cannot be G-d!
So anyone like you who tries to say that this refers to their “pre incarnate jesus” will have to answer to Gd when He makes it abundantly clear that it is idolatry to worship any of His heavenly host in Deuteronomy 4:19!
Deuteronomy 4 reminds us that we are to worship God only as He appeared to us at Sinai and that we are to never, ever, ever, ever associate Him with any physical form (by the way, I’m paraphrasing). Jesus did not appear to us at Sinai and he has a physical form; ergo, worship of him is forbidden.
Deuteronomy 13 teaches us that if a prophet produces a miracle and then introduces a new type of worship, he is a false prophet. Jesus introduced a type of worship unknown to our fathers; ergo, his miracles are meaningless and he is a false prophet.
::::::::::::::::quote::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
If you read what the pagans wrote about the Jews, it wasn’t the Jews’ monotheism that they found odd. It’s the fact that the Jewish temple had no god inside of it. That is to say, the Jews didn’t represent their god with some form of statue or image. The Holy of Holies in the Temple was literally empty. The notion of an all-powerful Creator godhead wasn’t that odd to the pagans. The lack of a physical representation is what the pagans found odd.
Needless to say Y’shayahu / Isaiah 40:9 is speaking of G-d (it even SAYS G-d), not the messiah.
John 1:36 speaks of the lamb of G-d (a pagan concept) — not beholding G-d. Mithraism and other pagan religions called their gods the “lamb of god.”
It is definitely NOT a Jewish concept. Indeed one reason lambs / goats were sacrificed by the Jews was to show that G-d was more powerful than the pagan gods who worshiped lambs / sheep / goats. . .
The Jewish bible (T’nach) makes it clear time and again that lambs were considered holy by the pagans – including the Egyptians – and this is where John takes the concept of “lamb of god” – most certainly NOT from Judaism.
Read the story of Joseph in B’reshit / Genesis 46:34 – he says that being a shepherd is “taboo” in Egypt – because they were HOLY to the Egyptians (gods). “you must say, ‘We and our fathers have dealt in livestock all our lives’. You will then be able to settle in the Goshen district, since all shepherds are taboo in Egypt.'”
Go forward a few chapters to Sh’mot / Exodus and read the discussion between Moses and Pharaoh. Moses asked Pharaoh to allow the Jews to go into the desert and sacrifice the שֶׂה / seh (a lamb or goat) — the reason was that we did not want to kill the שֶׂה / seh in front of the Egyptians: “We can’t possibly do that,” said Moses, “because we’re going to sacrifice the Egyptians’ god to HaShem our G-d! If we were to sacrifice their god right in front of them, wouldn’t they pelt us with rocks?” (Sh’mot / Exodus 8:22).
John 1:36 saying “When he saw Jesus passing by, he said, “Look, the Lamb of G-d!” is appealing to pagans familiar with the concept to turn to Jesus and Christianity. Research Criosphinx — an Egyptian Sphinx with a ram’s head. The image in this post show the Criosphinx statues at the temple of the Egyptian god Amun at Karnak. Amun was one of the most powerful gods in ancient Egypt. At the height of Egyptian civilization he was called the ‘king of the gods’. Amun became associated with the ram (a male sheep, adult “lamb”).
Jews never worshiped rams / sheep / lambs / goats. We sacrificed them to the real G-d to show they were not gods at all, but were powerless and not to be worshiped.
Let me illustrate by way of a story. Late one night, I found myself working in my study, everyone in my family was already sleeping. I heard a knock on the door. Wondering who it might be so late at night I opened the door to find a kind looking old man. The fellow wanted a few words with me so we sat down on the couches in the living room and we struck up a conversation. At some point, without warning, the man stood up, positioned himself right in front of me and announced that he is an incarnation of the Creator of heaven and earth and if I do not offer a prayer to him then I am in essence rejecting the God of my fathers. I told the man that I would be very uncomfortable offering a prayer to him but I would be more than happy to go into my study, close the door behind me and offer up a prayer to the One Creator of heaven and earth. If this will satisfy him, then fantastic. And if it won’t satisfy him, then he has told me in so many words that he is not the Creator of heaven and earth.
If you are a Christian and you believe that Jesus is an incarnation of the One Creator of heaven and earth, then why do you see a need to convert Jews who pray to the One Creator of heaven and earth? And if you recognize that Jews are not praying to Jesus then you should also recognize that God and Jesus are two separate entities, they are not “one and the same.”
Allow me to provide another illustration. The Christian Scriptures tell us that Jesus prayed, that he worshiped God. Who was Jesus praying to? Was he praying to himself? I do not believe that any Christian would hold such a position. Christians would agree that Jesus prayed to what they call “God the Father,” the first person in the “godhead.”
My question is simply this. If “God the Father” is an adequate and complete God for Jesus then why is He not enough for you?
Let me illustrate this from a different angle. I am sure that you have heard of Unitarian Christians. These are people who believe that Jesus was a great teacher, a great prophet, the promised Messiah, a vicarious atonement but these people believe that he was not divine. There are two separate attractions pulling at the heart of the Unitarian Christian. On the one hand there is God, Creator and sustainer of all existence. And on the other hand there is Jesus who pulls at the Unitarian’s heart as a human hero.
Now imagine if this Unitarian were to become a Trinitarian. What would happen to this Unitarian’s love for Jesus? Will it simply disappear? No, not at all. He will simply elevate that love to the level of complete surrender that is appropriate toward God and tell himself that Jesus and God are in some mysterious way “one and the same.”
Or imagine if a Trinitarian would want to become a Unitarian. Would this Trinitarian need to develop a new love in his heart toward Jesus? Would he have to find a new attraction to connect his heart to Jesus? Of course not! All he will have to do is take that same love that he already has toward Jesus and downgrade it from total surrender to a level that is appropriate toward a human hero but he won’t have to invent a new love.
This clearly illustrates that the attraction that God has for the human heart and the attraction that Jesus has for the human heart are two different attractions.
And if you open the book of Psalms, the book in which David opened his heart you will find David’s love for God. You will hear the joy that David found in God. And you will find how David saw it as the mission of his life to articulate and to bring to life the truth that the God that he loved is the only God that your heart needs.
will you worship any random man who appears to you with holes in his hands and feet claiming to be the almighty creator ?
quote :
Let me illustrate by way of a story. Late one night, I found myself working in my study, everyone in my family was already sleeping. I heard a knock on the door. Wondering who it might be so late at night I opened the door to find a kind looking old man. The fellow wanted a few words with me so we sat down on the couches in the living room and we struck up a conversation. At some point, without warning, the man stood up, positioned himself right in front of me and announced that he is an incarnation of the Creator of heaven and earth and if I do not offer a prayer to him then I am in essence rejecting the God of my fathers. I told the man that I would be very uncomfortable offering a prayer to him but I would be more than happy to go into my study, close the door behind me and offer up a prayer to the One Creator of heaven and earth. If this will satisfy him, then fantastic. And if it won’t satisfy him, then he has told me in so many words that he is not the Creator of heaven and earth.
If you are a Christian and you believe that Jesus is an incarnation of the One Creator of heaven and earth, then why do you see a need to convert Jews who pray to the One Creator of heaven and earth? And if you recognize that Jews are not praying to Jesus then you should also recognize that God and Jesus are two separate entities, they are not “one and the same.”
Allow me to provide another illustration. The Christian Scriptures tell us that Jesus prayed, that he worshiped God. Who was Jesus praying to? Was he praying to himself? I do not believe that any Christian would hold such a position. Christians would agree that Jesus prayed to what they call “God the Father,” the first person in the “godhead.”
My question is simply this. If “God the Father” is an adequate and complete God for Jesus then why is He not enough for you?
Let me illustrate this from a different angle. I am sure that you have heard of Unitarian Christians. These are people who believe that Jesus was a great teacher, a great prophet, the promised Messiah, a vicarious atonement but these people believe that he was not divine. There are two separate attractions pulling at the heart of the Unitarian Christian. On the one hand there is God, Creator and sustainer of all existence. And on the other hand there is Jesus who pulls at the Unitarian’s heart as a human hero.
Now imagine if this Unitarian were to become a Trinitarian. What would happen to this Unitarian’s love for Jesus? Will it simply disappear? No, not at all. He will simply elevate that love to the level of complete surrender that is appropriate toward God and tell himself that Jesus and God are in some mysterious way “one and the same.”
Or imagine if a Trinitarian would want to become a Unitarian. Would this Trinitarian need to develop a new love in his heart toward Jesus? Would he have to find a new attraction to connect his heart to Jesus? Of course not! All he will have to do is take that same love that he already has toward Jesus and downgrade it from total surrender to a level that is appropriate toward a human hero but he won’t have to invent a new love.
This clearly illustrates that the attraction that God has for the human heart and the attraction that Jesus has for the human heart are two different attractions.
And if you open the book of Psalms, the book in which David opened his heart you will find David’s love for God. You will hear the joy that David found in God. And you will find how David saw it as the mission of his life to articulate and to bring to life the truth that the God that he loved is the only God that your heart needs.
“Such a group under the leadership of Aaron may have broken away from allegiance to Moses and insisted on a bull figure as their symbol of the divine presence…
It should be noted that the Golden Calf does not violate the prescription of the Ten Commandments regarding false images (20:4-5). That prohibition concerns the person of Yahweh, whereas the Golden Calf (actually a young bull) looks to an attribute of Yahweh -strength… Israel’s history, however, shows that the people did not always distinguish between the deity and the deity’s attribute and so identified the young bull with Yahweh (see Hos 13:2).”
[5] Craghan, J. F. (1992). Exodus. In Dianne Bergant (Ed.), The Collegeville Bible Commentary Based on the New American Bible: Old Testament. Collegeville, Minnesota: The Liturgical Press. p. 109
Philo’s description of Moses, who is called ‘god and king of the whole nation’, included some mastery over creation:
For, since God judged him worthy to appear as a partner of His own possessions, He gave into his hands the whole world as a portion well fitted for His heir. Therefore, each element obeyed him as its master, changed its natural properties and submitted to his command… (Vit Mos 1.155-156)
Compare the similar language in Mk 4.41: ‘Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?’ I’d use Greek, Alan, but it’s a bit of a hassle right now. Nevertheless, the linguistic similarities are there if you check. Another text (sometimes noted) is the description of the anointed figure in 4Q521: ‘[for the heav]ens and the earth will listen to his anointed one…’ Hopefully now you can see that the Markan miracles do not necessarily have to be taken as indicating divinity in the strongest possible sense.
Throughout the Jewish Scriptures we find mocking remarks directed against idols and idolatry. The prophets describe the idols as: “… those who do not see or hear…” (Deuteronomy 4:28, Psalm 115:5, see also Habakuk 2:18). The prophets ridicule idols of wood and stone (Deuteronomy 28:36, 29:16, 2Kings 19:18, Ezekiel 20:32). The Scriptures describe idolatry as worshiping the handiwork of men (Deuteronomy 27:15, 31:29, 1Kings 16:7, Isaiah 2:8, 37:19, Jeremiah 10:3, Hosea 14:4, Micah 5:12, Psalm 135:15).
In this same spirit, Isaiah presents us with a vivid teaching on the subject of idolatry (Isaiah 44:6-20). The prophet describes how the craftsman exerts himself to create an idol. The prophet then speaks of the wood that is used to make the statue. Isaiah points out how one part of the wood is used to provide heat and cooking fuel for the same person who worships the image that had been fashioned from the other half of the same piece of wood.
What is the point of all this? Most idolaters would argue that it is not the statue that they are worshiping, but rather they worship the spirit that the statue represents. Furthermore, throughout history, many idolaters worshiped natural objects such as the sun, the moon, cats, cows and various people. How do the Scriptural lessons on idolatry pertain to these idolaters? Why is there so much emphasis on mocking the physical statue when in many cases the actual statue is not the focus of the idolater’s devotion?
When we understand the underlying principle of worship and devotion we will be able to appreciate the Scriptural lesson.
Worship of the Divine demands that one submit totally and unconditionally to God. Such absolute submission is only appropriate from created towards Creator, from one who is intrinsically a subject to One who is intrinsically the Master. The One who created everything and continuously sustains everything already owns every facet of our existence. It all belongs to Him and to Him alone. In submitting ourselves to Him we are merely acknowledging the truth of our complete dependence upon His mercy.
The key principles of worship and devotion are: Creator, the One to whom we belong, and the Master who is inherently the Master of all.
With this understanding we can now look at the Scriptural mockery of idolatry with clarity. Every statue is but a symbol, a representative of some concept or some entity. The statue will have to share some commonality, real or imagined, with the concept or entity that it is meant to represent. A statue can be used to symbolize almost any concept or entity. One can create a statue to represent the concepts of prosperity, of good fortune, of fertility, of strength, of forgiveness from sin and of human excellence.
There is one concept that can never be represented by a statue. There is one entity that can share no commonality with any physical body. That concept is the concept of “intrinsic Master” and “Creator of all”. When we think in the terms of “Creator versus created” and “the true Owner of all versus His subjects” – every entity that can be encompassed by our finite minds – will fall on the side of created and subject. There is nothing that can be used to represent the true Master and Creator because everything that we might use is equally subject and created by the Master and Creator.
The mockery of the prophets focuses on the concepts of “Creator” and “Master”. When one creates a statue and submits himself or herself to it – then the concept of worship has been completely subverted. The human is the creator of the statue, and the wood from which the statue is formed is actually the servant of man in the heat and light with which humanity is served. Whoever bows to a statue cannot be thinking in the terms of “Creator” and “Master”, because the statue is both “created” and “servant”.
Any worship aside from the worship of the One infinite Creator of all can be represented by a statue. Let us take the Christian devotion to Jesus as an example. Jesus was contained in a physical body that walked this earth. There is no intrinsic reason why he cannot be represented by a replica of his physical body. Since Jesus was limited to a physical body there is no reason why a finite physical body cannot be used to represent him.
In fact those who worship Jesus do not think in the terms of “Creator” or “the One to whom all belong”. The Christian devotees of Jesus think in the terms of obtaining forgiveness from sin, escaping the fires of hell, and acquiring a place in eternal life. If these followers of Jesus were to ask themselves: “does this man already own every facet of my existence?” – “is this man the Creator of all existence?” – they would not be directing their worship and devotion to a finite inhabitant of God’s earth. It is only when these crucial questions are ignored that the path is open for idolatry
Jeremiah 2:5New International Version (NIV)
5 This is what the Lord says:
“What fault did your ancestors find in me,
that they strayed so far from me?
They followed worthless idols
and became worthless themselves.
quoting jewish commentary on this
In Jeremiah’s days there were Jews who strayed after idols and God asked them; “what flaw did you find in Me?” (Jeremiah 2:5). God asks Israel; what were you missing in your worship of Me? What joy did you not find in your relationship with Me? And this is the question that the Jew asks the Church. Why do we need Jesus? What does Jesus have to offer to us that God didn’t already give us? What will we find in Jesus that we don’t have in God? What are we missing when we love God as David did before us? What can we be missing? Can you add anything on to God?
Likewise, at the so-called Last Supper, Jesus attempted to overwrite the Pesach with his own narrative. A day that was dedicated to remembering God’s removal of Israel from Exodus was now to be a day to commemorate Jesus’ death. Jesus is taking something that refers one to God, a day set aside eternally just for this purpose, and repurposing it to make it about himself. This is far from your claim that he always referred people to Hashem. In fact, he is taking a memorial that does refer people to Hashem and now making it to refer to himself. He exalts himself over God, the antithesis of your assertion.
The Church continues to exalt Jesus over God in the same manner, of course. Shavuot has become for the Church, Pentecost. A day dedicated to celebrating God granting Israel a most precious gift is to become a day about receiving the ability to speak a foreign language without having to learn. Shabbat is not about honoring the Creator but the supposed resurrection. And one may read the works of various counter-counter-missionaries to see how they relate the festivals to Jesus. The things meant to focus the nation of priests on their God are now rewritten by the Church to focus humanity on Jesus. How reminiscent of the one who “shall attempt to change the sacred seasons and the law” (Dan. 7.24).
The vast majority of Christians want Jews to look at a person (who by all rational definitions) lived, breathed, and DIED in appearance as a man. The NT reinforces a sense of scepticism when revelation 13 and 2 Thessalonians both say that an imposter will come, say he is G-d, and lead people astray with miraculous signs.
“Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book. But these are written so that you may come to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through believing you may have life in his name”
This is ridiculous the same Jesus warned people not to be decieved by the miracles of false prophets and here we are told Jesus did all these miracles so that we may believe… And those that believe will do more miracles. By what then are we to know the truth?
Not only that, but the entire time, Jesus claims to be performing miracles to prove (and many believed unto him after that) despite the fact that Deuteronomy states that just because someone performs great signs and accurately predicts the future, it doesn’t mean they are to be obeyed. I even get this to this day. The first thing Christians respond with when I tell them “if Jesus was a human, and you still think he was god, how do you know I’m not god? Would you believe I was god if I told you I was?”, and they reply “well, can you do miracles?” This means that not only would they follow my commands if I could turn water into wine, but I’d be able to convince them I created the universe and was the God of the OT if could turn water into wine. That is grossly anti-biblical.
We know that when the Dajjal (anti-Christ) returns he will be given the power to do miraculous deeds. Because of this, many people in the end of days will follow him believing that he is either a Prophet of God, or even God himself. Based on Christian beliefs that a human who performs miracles is a divinely sanctioned Prophet or God, it would be easy to predict that many of those who are deluded in the end of days by the Dajjal will likely be Christians. But only Allah knows for sure.
why the jews say they don’t need human sacrifice :
The Church imagines a god with a foreshortened arm, a god with no strength. He is a god bound in rules and either unable or unwilling to forgive unless suffering is inflicted upon someone, even the innocent. In Ezekiel 33:10, the people have said: “Our transgressions and our sins weigh upon us, and we waste away because of them; how then can we live?” The Church echoes this question. It is the question on the lips of every missionary. But the answer of the Church does not match that of Ezekiel. The answer of the Church does not match that of HaShem. Ezekiel continues: “Say to them, ‘As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn back from their ways and live.’” The Church might acknowledge that HaShem has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but then it responds that He takes pleasure in the death of the righteous. But this is not what Ezekiel says. Ezekiel says that HaShem wishes that we would turn away from our ways. HaShem says of those that turn back to Him: “None of the sins that they have committed shall be remembered against them; they have done what is lawful and right, they shall surely live” (Ez. 33:16). No one need die for the sins of another; one need only turn back to HaShem.
The Church will say that this is to make light of God’s righteousness. They will say that someone must pay the penalty for sin, if not the sinner then someone. In this, they echo what the people say in Ezekiel: “The way of the Lord is not just…” (Ezekiel 33:17). It does not seem right to them that HaShem would ‘just’ forgive a person. But HaShem’s response is that “it is their own way that is not just” (Ezekiel 33:17). And He reiterates that He desires the wicked to repent: “And when the wicked turn from their wickedness, and do what is lawful and right, they shall live by it” (Ez. 33:19).
Sadly, the Church often portrays this teaching as trusting in one’s own righteousness. But this is not the case at all. Indeed, this is trust in the promise of HaShem, trust in His love and in His goodness and in His mercy. This is the God that assured Moses of His mercy: “…a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for the thousandth generation” (Ex. 34:7). We can be assured of His kindness extended toward us. So assured can we be that we know that if he punishes us, it is for our good, an act of kindness: “My child, do not despise the Lord’s discipline or be weary of his reproof, for the Lord reproves the one he loves, as a father the son in whom he delights” (Prov. 3:11-12). Such punishments are a call to return to Him, where we are assured of His forgiveness, mercy, and generosity.
One of the blessings of God is the conscience. It serves to motivate one to review his actions, to see if he has not violated God’s precepts, to see if he has not ill-used another. Guilt, when used properly, is a blessing, urging the sinner to return to HaShem. But guilt can be a burden to those that do not properly heed it. The guilty can become hopeless, feeling he may never be right with God, as those in Ezekiel. The Church compounds this guilt by telling its adherents that they are so bad that God could never forgive them. Not only that, an innocent man needed to be terribly shamed, beaten, and murdered on their behalf. This can create in incredibly over-powering guilt in people, creating in them the sense that they are worthless.
All this leads to the mistake of putting their trust in a man rather than in HaShem. Because they have been told that HaShem could never tolerate them, He feels forever far away. Moreover, He is an object of fear, because He would destroy them. Jesus on the other hand, rather than wanting to destroy them, was willing to suffer and die for them. His love appears to the Christian to be so much greater than the love of God. God was willing to send someone else to die. Jesus was willing to actually do the dying.
And so his trust and affection is given to a man.
All the while, he does not know that HaShem did not need someone to die for Him. He does not know that HaShem loves him enough to forgive him if he will but make amends and return to HaShem. He does not know that his trust in a man is misplaced, but trust in HaShem can never be misplaced. HaShem does not wish his destruction. Nor is HaShem powerless to forgive those that have violated His Torah.
You are right to put your trust in HaShem.
Thirdly. mohammed and allah completely miss the boat when it comes to comprehending the point of the NT – probably because they were ignorant of it. The good news – and most significant revelation of all the scriptures – is that god is a loving father who has taken the punishment for sin onto himself, freeing man to choose repentance or not. Our sins are forgiven.
RESPONSE :
Major Problems with the Christian Concept of Salvation: The Trinity becomes muddled in Christian Soteriology
by Ibn Anwar, BHsc. (Hons), MCollT
The concept of vicarious atonement is fundamental to mainstream Christianity. It is postulated that salvation is only acquirable through the acceptance of the death of Jesus on the cross as a divinely instituted sacrifice. In this Christian salvific saga, the Father is said to pour all His Wrath onto the Son and in so doing, He satisfies the need for Justice where sin is concerned. The so called tension between Justice and Mercy– a unique concept in western Christianity* –is resolved and God can appropriately offer the latter without dispensing with the former.
Upon close inspection of the above doctrine, which is the most fundamental feature of western Christian faith, several problems and difficulties arise.
Firstly, the inescapable impression that the vicarious atonement gives is that the Father is the source of Wrath and the Son is the source of Love. Whilst the Father punishes, the Son gives. These two in Christian theology are supposed to be equal in every respect. They are designated as ‘Persons’ within One God. If that were true, then this God, apparently, did not satisfy the alleged tension between the attributes of Justice and Mercy after all or if He did, then He only managed to satisfy one third of Justice because the rest of God, i.e., the Son and the Holy Spirit, did not
pour out their Wrath.
And this fact is in direct opposition to John 5:19 which says that the Son does everything and anything He sees the Father does. If John 5:19 were true then the vicarious atonement would be false as it would render the Son as wrathful instead of loving whilst he was affixed on the cross, but if the vicarious atonement were true, then John 5:19 would be false because the Son did not emulate the Father’s wrath but was instead exuding love in his sacrifice. However, according to standard Christian teaching, the Wrath that is said to have been poured onto the Son on the cross was supposed to have been the complete and full Wrath of God as a complete entity. If one accepts that premise, then one must reevaluate one’s reading of those many instances in the Bible where God shows His Wrath. If the cross received the full measure of God’s Wrath and only the Father actually poured His Wrath on it, the necessary implication is that God’s attribute of wrathfulness belongs only to the Father and so the wrathful instances of God in biblical history were instances of only the Father and not the full God, which is supposed to be the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit together. Following this line of thought, one must then necessarily surmise that Justice comes only from the Father who satisfies it with His Wrath. If that were true, then God as a complete Being becomes crippled with disproportionate attributes unevenly distributed to the three members that make up the One Being.
Secondly, in this Christian story of salvation, because the Son shows love and offers himself to be tortured and killed in order that mankind be forgiven and saved from the Father’s frightening wrath, would that not lead a believer to adore the Son more than the Father. The Father would instead be terribly feared, would He not? Could this be the reason why Christians focus much of their attention on Jesus but less so on the Father?
Thirdly, in the love-hate relationship between the Father and the Son on the cross, have you noticed something? The Holy Spirit is missing! He is completely non-existent in the picture. In Christianity’s beloved story of salvation that Christians cannot help but share with the rest of the world, the Holy Spirit is forgotten. Apparently, to save humanity one member of the Trinity can be dispensed with. And that means the vicarious atonement paradigm necessitates the conclusion that God as a complete entity is not required to save mankind, therefore, the statement that “God so loved the world…” is quite misleading in Trinitarian theology.
if you allow the son to become a man, what is stopping the ghost from becoming the wife of the father and the father becoming a husband ?
its all possible in trinity world
quote:
In Greek circles there were religions that maintained that Sophia was indeed a divine being. She (the word Sophia in Greek is feminine, so the divine being is always imagined as female) is especially prominent in forms of Gnosticism. But Sophia also came to be thought of as a (subservient) divine being in Jewish circles as well. Speculation on Sophia begins with the Hebrew Bible, especially Proverbs 8. Read it and you’ll see: “Wisdom” is said to have been with God in the beginning when he created all things, and to have participated with God in the creation (since he made all things using his wisdom). In fact, she is said to be the master creator herself through whom God created and even God’s consort in the beginning. In some Jewish circles Sophia, then, came to be thought of as not simply something people have, but as a divine hypostasis that is in the world. This view probably came to influence the Gospel of John, for whom a male hypostasis – the Logos (or “Word”) – was with God in the beginning, was himself God, yet was distinct from God, and was the one through whom all things were made (see John 1:1-3).
quote:
In Jewish Kabbalah the second emanation from God (after the Keter or Crown) is a split entity of Wisdom (chakhmah) and Understanding (binah), both of which are female. Some kabbalists add Understanding (da’at) as a unifier between them. From there the emanations progress through Grace, Might, Glory and Compassion down to the Foundation of the world and, ultimately, God’s Kingdom (malkhut). Most of this Kabbalah stuff post-dates Jesus by centuries, but the core of it comes from the very Neo-Platonic ideas that were common amongst thinkers in Jesus’ time (cf. Philo of Alexandria), so it’s not surprising that Judaism, Christianity and pagan philosophies have the Wisdom emanation entity in common.
quote:
Regarding Sophia/Wisdom, it is beyond our comprehension as to how that works with the essence of GOD being a spirit. Makes me wonder about his other attributes of Love, Power and Justice whether they follow the same substance as Wisdom???
quote:
I’m not saying that I think Sophia is a divine being in Proverbs 8, but that this is how the passage came to function in later Jewish reflection. There are indeed numerous Jewish texts that understand there to be other divine beings along with God I deal with all this in my book How Jesus Became God.
God does not get taken over by death,He has full control and power over it.God does not die and rise from death,death cannot OVERTAKE GOD, or make him experience losing life. We call Him al hay al qayyum.
yourphariseefriend says:
April 27, 2018 at 9:03 am
tony Exactly! The Christian claim that Jesus is God is no more than a word game. If someone loves God with all his/her heart. soul and might, the Christian would still want to take part of that love (if not all of it) and give it to Jesus.
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
“You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars–all the heavenly array–do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.” (Deuteronomy 4:15-19)
Your gospel texts confirm that I have the right reading of Deuteronomy 4 because when the beast of revelation comes seeking worship as a man claiming to be a god sitting in the temple, your book tells you to ignore such a one at the cost of your very life.
Ergo, you have a double standard, special pleading, and cognitive dissonance that you are applying unconsciously only in the case of the Nazarene.
I say the Bible teaches unilaterally not to pray to or pay homage to anything that looks like a human being.
You would say the same, but you make an exception for Jesus.
However, I do not even see a physical Nazarene anywhere on planet earth at the moment do you?
You say he is in heaven!
Meanwhile, I see images, sects, and pop culture images everywhere!
So, in the here and now, what is it in terms of actual divine service that you are advocating?
Christian services.
You would love people to go to a Church on Sunday, or Saturday and look at a wooden image of a man on a cross, and hear the stories, hoping that they be reminded and associate this image and various prophetic texts with Yeshua who died 2,000 years ago.
The verses I gave you just above would completely contradict this kind of religious service in form if not functionally as foreign to the covenant.
You never met Jesus, neither did I, we only heard the stories from pastors and family. Based on these stories, we went to Church, where we saw crosses or Crucifixes, and they said “Jesus died for you” pointing to that image!
Imagine if instead of a golden calf, Israel had made a golden Moses.
Based off of their memories of him, they teach the people.
Imagine that while Moses is on the mountain, the people of Israel are telling stories of his mighty works and setting up communities. People go to large temples and gaze at the Golden Moses behind the pulpit and they are healed from all matter of diseases. They sing songs about Moses, they celebrate his birth, his miraculous escape from Egyot, and they await the day he will return.
Now, imagine that he is on the mountain for 1,000 years. Everyone who knew him while he was on earth has died. Are you telling me that he would recognize a damn thing when he comes down with the tablets of the law?
I submit to you, that this is the only kind of service you could ever be advocating for concerning Jesus, because that kind of service is all the gospels have to offer.
Blogging Theology 
Very True!
LikeLike
LOL
LikeLike
idolatry
ʌɪˈdɒlətri/Submit
noun
the worship of idols.
quote:
form worship
From this passage, we see two explicit themes:
1. G-d is explicitly commanding Israel not to worship Him in any form. (Deut 4:16)
2. G-d is explicitly commanding Israel to teach this to their children and their children’s children, even after they come to the land of Israel. (Deut 4:9-14)
So this isn’t just a “one time deal” command, Lion…This prohibition against form worship extends to this very day!
It is important to note that this is not simply explicit to “man made forms.” Did G-d create Adam, the first man? Yes…But WOULD G-d appear in the form of Adam? Of course not! Same thing with the “first lizard,” or the “first fish.” How do we know this? Deut 4:16! We are not to worship G-d in ANY FORM.
Likewise, your jesus was a man. Your jesus was a form. Hashem explicitly forbids Israel from worshipping Him in ANY FORM.
Thus, your jesus cannot be “god in the flesh.” On the contrary, your jesus is not Hashem. Hashem clearly states that it is idolatry to worship Him in any form. Thus, your worship of jesus is idolatry.
Also keep in mind that the “sun, the moon, and the whole host of heaven,” were not “man made” either, so please do not make the pitiful argument that your jeezer is immune to this prohibition because he is supposedly “uncreated.” (Which you have no means of proving.) A form is a form is a form!
At the end of the day, Deut 4:9-19 what we are to go by. If you wish to eisegetically abuse scripture and assume that “let us make man in our image” refers to your jeezer, then that’s your idolatrous prerogative.
G-d gave Israel explicit instructions not to worship Him in ANY FORM. Deut 4:9-19 isn’t going away…Sorry!
LikeLiked by 1 person
There was a news story in my city, which reported that someone had stolen the baby Jesus from the nativity scene displayed outside in front of a poor woman’s house. She decried the foul criminal act by saying, “how can we celebrate Christmas without baby Jesus?!” and further lamented that, “what is the sense in displaying Mary and Joseph without baby Jesus?!”
The woman seemed to truly believe that since someone had stolen her God baby, and there was no benefit in celebrating the holiday as it was pointless. She could not seem to separate real Prophet Jesus from a gaudy, tacky looking, cheap plastic imitation, nor did she consider it a sacrilege to set up an Idol upon her front lawn where her “God” along with Joseph and Mary would be in danger of being disrespected or desecrated by those with ill intentions.
How many more pitiful souls like her have been misled by Christian innovation and Idolatry?
LikeLike
“No; because no human being could come up with these mysterious truths that confound your mind. It is God’s revelation of Himself; not man seeking to understand God or make God more understandable.”
the pagan religions inspired your religion.
how many gods took on human form to connect with the people?
quote:
In response, an anonymous poet wrote a hymn celebrating the actions and character of Demetrius, associating him with the great goddess of Greece, Demeter. Here is an extract of his hymn:
The greatest among the gods have drawn close to our city…
Both Demeter and Demetrius…
Hail to you, O Son of the mighty god Poseidon and of Aphrodite.
The other gods dwell so far away,
or else they have no ears,
or they do not exist, or do not care at all about us
We see you in our midst,
not a wooden or stone presence, but bodily
And so we pray to you… bring about peace
for you are the Lord (κύριος)
Notice what is said of Demetrius. He is one of the “greatest gods,” the son of God” (specifically of the gods Poseidon and Aphrodite), one who is “near” his own people – not remote, off on Mount Olympus, the one who “brings peace,” who can be called “Lord.”
These ascriptions to Demetrius should sound familiar to anyone who knows about early Christianity, where Jesus too was known as the incarnation of a divine being, the Son of God, the bringer of peace, the Lord, and God in the flesh. My ultimate point: Jesus was not the first to be called such things, or thought to be a kind of incarnation of the divine. He had predecessors.
+ The gods in Greek and Roman thought were considered to be superhuman. Unlike, say, the (animal-shaped) gods of Egypt, the Greek and Roman gods were literally in human form. When they appeared here on earth to humans they were often “bigger than life,” but they could assume regular human form when they wanted to and they were human-shaped even when attending to their heavenly duties. In the Greek and Roman myths, they acted in human ways, they experienced the range of human emotions, they manifested human foibles, and so on.
:::::::::::
Jeremiah 2:5New International Version (NIV)
5 This is what the Lord says:
“What fault did your ancestors find in me,
that they strayed so far from me?
They followed worthless idols
and became worthless themselves.
LikeLike
” It is God’s revelation of Himself; not man seeking to understand God or make God more understandable”
jesus had a wound in his side and was poked by thomas.
judaism :
If you read what the pagans wrote about the Jews, it wasn’t the Jews’ monotheism that they found odd. It’s the fact that the Jewish temple had no god inside of it. That is to say, the Jews didn’t represent their god with some form of statue or image. The Holy of Holies in the Temple was literally empty. The notion of an all-powerful Creator godhead wasn’t that odd to the pagans. The lack of a physical representation is what the pagans found odd.
can you explain why thomas would not have become a pagan the moment he assumed that an injured man before him was yhwh?
thomas spat at judaism in his time IF he had done the action of worshipping a wounded creature.
LikeLike
how is this not idolatry?
LikeLike
Jeremiah 2:5New International Version (NIV)
5 This is what the Lord says:
“What fault did your ancestors find in me,
that they strayed so far from me?
They followed worthless idols
and became worthless themselves.
quote:
because God is the ultimate source of provision, mercy, forgiveness, etc., when it comes to prayer He should be asked directly
He does not require an intermediary because He directly hears, sees, and has full knowledge and control over all that happens while relying on an intermediary can result in putting tawakkul in, attributing powers to, and even worshiping that intermediary instead of God Himself
that was the same argument the pagans and Christians made for using idols or saints as intercessors
the Qur’an responds that God is closer to you than your jugular vein meaning even though He is transcendent, He is also imminent through His knowledge and compassion for His creatures
it’s very simple – therefore you don’t need intermediaries, God to become incarnate, etc.
LikeLike
miracle god men who fast
LikeLike
idolatry
ʌɪˈdɒlətri/Submit
noun
the worship of idols.
synonyms: idol worship, idolatrism, fetishism, iconolatry, icon worship; More
extreme admiration, love, or reverence for something or someone.
LikeLike
the boy is god but the women who carried him isn’t ?
quote:
Theotokos (Greek Θεοτόκος Greek pronunciation: [θeoˈtokos]) is a title of Mary, mother of Jesus, used especially in Eastern Christianity. The usual Latin translations, Dei Genetrix or Deipara (approximately “parent (fem.) of God”), are translated as “Mother of God” or “God-bearer”.
LikeLike
what belief in “man-god” opens up to :
LikeLike
don’t worship the hosts of heaven say the jews :
Did you ever think to check Deuteronomy 4:19 and how the WHOLE HOST OF HEAVEN is prohibited from being worshiped by G-d Himself?!
Deut 4:19. And lest you lift up your eyes to heaven, and see the sun, and the moon, and the stars, all the host (צְבָא) of heaven, which the Lord your God assigned to all peoples under the entire heaven, and be drawn away to prostrate yourselves before them and worship them.
This utterly destroys any attempt by you or anyone else who wants to insist that the angel described in Joshua 5:14 is actually a “preincarnatejesus angel.” The angel is described as “the captain of the Lord’s **HOST.*” Literally, the same Hebrew word for “host” (צְבָא) is used in Deuteronomy 4:19 concerning the prohibition of the worship of ALL THE **HOST (צְבָא)** OF HEAVEN. This prohibition obviously includes the “captain of the Lord’s HOST (צְבָא)” mentioned in Joshua 5:14. This means that the “captain of the Lord’s HOST (צְבָא)” mentioned in Joshua 5:14 cannot be G-d!
So anyone like you who tries to say that this refers to their “pre incarnate jesus” will have to answer to Gd when He makes it abundantly clear that it is idolatry to worship any of His heavenly host in Deuteronomy 4:19!
LikeLike
:::::::::::deu 4::::::::::::::::
Deuteronomy 4 reminds us that we are to worship God only as He appeared to us at Sinai and that we are to never, ever, ever, ever associate Him with any physical form (by the way, I’m paraphrasing). Jesus did not appear to us at Sinai and he has a physical form; ergo, worship of him is forbidden.
Deuteronomy 13 teaches us that if a prophet produces a miracle and then introduces a new type of worship, he is a false prophet. Jesus introduced a type of worship unknown to our fathers; ergo, his miracles are meaningless and he is a false prophet.
::::::::::::::::quote::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
If you read what the pagans wrote about the Jews, it wasn’t the Jews’ monotheism that they found odd. It’s the fact that the Jewish temple had no god inside of it. That is to say, the Jews didn’t represent their god with some form of statue or image. The Holy of Holies in the Temple was literally empty. The notion of an all-powerful Creator godhead wasn’t that odd to the pagans. The lack of a physical representation is what the pagans found odd.
LikeLike
Needless to say Y’shayahu / Isaiah 40:9 is speaking of G-d (it even SAYS G-d), not the messiah.
John 1:36 speaks of the lamb of G-d (a pagan concept) — not beholding G-d. Mithraism and other pagan religions called their gods the “lamb of god.”
It is definitely NOT a Jewish concept. Indeed one reason lambs / goats were sacrificed by the Jews was to show that G-d was more powerful than the pagan gods who worshiped lambs / sheep / goats. . .
The Jewish bible (T’nach) makes it clear time and again that lambs were considered holy by the pagans – including the Egyptians – and this is where John takes the concept of “lamb of god” – most certainly NOT from Judaism.
Read the story of Joseph in B’reshit / Genesis 46:34 – he says that being a shepherd is “taboo” in Egypt – because they were HOLY to the Egyptians (gods). “you must say, ‘We and our fathers have dealt in livestock all our lives’. You will then be able to settle in the Goshen district, since all shepherds are taboo in Egypt.'”
Go forward a few chapters to Sh’mot / Exodus and read the discussion between Moses and Pharaoh. Moses asked Pharaoh to allow the Jews to go into the desert and sacrifice the שֶׂה / seh (a lamb or goat) — the reason was that we did not want to kill the שֶׂה / seh in front of the Egyptians: “We can’t possibly do that,” said Moses, “because we’re going to sacrifice the Egyptians’ god to HaShem our G-d! If we were to sacrifice their god right in front of them, wouldn’t they pelt us with rocks?” (Sh’mot / Exodus 8:22).
John 1:36 saying “When he saw Jesus passing by, he said, “Look, the Lamb of G-d!” is appealing to pagans familiar with the concept to turn to Jesus and Christianity. Research Criosphinx — an Egyptian Sphinx with a ram’s head. The image in this post show the Criosphinx statues at the temple of the Egyptian god Amun at Karnak. Amun was one of the most powerful gods in ancient Egypt. At the height of Egyptian civilization he was called the ‘king of the gods’. Amun became associated with the ram (a male sheep, adult “lamb”).
Jews never worshiped rams / sheep / lambs / goats. We sacrificed them to the real G-d to show they were not gods at all, but were powerless and not to be worshiped.
http://messiahtruth.yuku.com/topic/6178/365-Prophecies-Jesus-199-Isaiah-409Behold-Gd#.WQiwGvQrLrc
LikeLike
////////////quote :
Let me illustrate by way of a story. Late one night, I found myself working in my study, everyone in my family was already sleeping. I heard a knock on the door. Wondering who it might be so late at night I opened the door to find a kind looking old man. The fellow wanted a few words with me so we sat down on the couches in the living room and we struck up a conversation. At some point, without warning, the man stood up, positioned himself right in front of me and announced that he is an incarnation of the Creator of heaven and earth and if I do not offer a prayer to him then I am in essence rejecting the God of my fathers. I told the man that I would be very uncomfortable offering a prayer to him but I would be more than happy to go into my study, close the door behind me and offer up a prayer to the One Creator of heaven and earth. If this will satisfy him, then fantastic. And if it won’t satisfy him, then he has told me in so many words that he is not the Creator of heaven and earth.
If you are a Christian and you believe that Jesus is an incarnation of the One Creator of heaven and earth, then why do you see a need to convert Jews who pray to the One Creator of heaven and earth? And if you recognize that Jews are not praying to Jesus then you should also recognize that God and Jesus are two separate entities, they are not “one and the same.”
Allow me to provide another illustration. The Christian Scriptures tell us that Jesus prayed, that he worshiped God. Who was Jesus praying to? Was he praying to himself? I do not believe that any Christian would hold such a position. Christians would agree that Jesus prayed to what they call “God the Father,” the first person in the “godhead.”
My question is simply this. If “God the Father” is an adequate and complete God for Jesus then why is He not enough for you?
Let me illustrate this from a different angle. I am sure that you have heard of Unitarian Christians. These are people who believe that Jesus was a great teacher, a great prophet, the promised Messiah, a vicarious atonement but these people believe that he was not divine. There are two separate attractions pulling at the heart of the Unitarian Christian. On the one hand there is God, Creator and sustainer of all existence. And on the other hand there is Jesus who pulls at the Unitarian’s heart as a human hero.
Now imagine if this Unitarian were to become a Trinitarian. What would happen to this Unitarian’s love for Jesus? Will it simply disappear? No, not at all. He will simply elevate that love to the level of complete surrender that is appropriate toward God and tell himself that Jesus and God are in some mysterious way “one and the same.”
Or imagine if a Trinitarian would want to become a Unitarian. Would this Trinitarian need to develop a new love in his heart toward Jesus? Would he have to find a new attraction to connect his heart to Jesus? Of course not! All he will have to do is take that same love that he already has toward Jesus and downgrade it from total surrender to a level that is appropriate toward a human hero but he won’t have to invent a new love.
This clearly illustrates that the attraction that God has for the human heart and the attraction that Jesus has for the human heart are two different attractions.
And if you open the book of Psalms, the book in which David opened his heart you will find David’s love for God. You will hear the joy that David found in God. And you will find how David saw it as the mission of his life to articulate and to bring to life the truth that the God that he loved is the only God that your heart needs.
LikeLike
will you worship any random man who appears to you with holes in his hands and feet claiming to be the almighty creator ?
quote :
Let me illustrate by way of a story. Late one night, I found myself working in my study, everyone in my family was already sleeping. I heard a knock on the door. Wondering who it might be so late at night I opened the door to find a kind looking old man. The fellow wanted a few words with me so we sat down on the couches in the living room and we struck up a conversation. At some point, without warning, the man stood up, positioned himself right in front of me and announced that he is an incarnation of the Creator of heaven and earth and if I do not offer a prayer to him then I am in essence rejecting the God of my fathers. I told the man that I would be very uncomfortable offering a prayer to him but I would be more than happy to go into my study, close the door behind me and offer up a prayer to the One Creator of heaven and earth. If this will satisfy him, then fantastic. And if it won’t satisfy him, then he has told me in so many words that he is not the Creator of heaven and earth.
If you are a Christian and you believe that Jesus is an incarnation of the One Creator of heaven and earth, then why do you see a need to convert Jews who pray to the One Creator of heaven and earth? And if you recognize that Jews are not praying to Jesus then you should also recognize that God and Jesus are two separate entities, they are not “one and the same.”
Allow me to provide another illustration. The Christian Scriptures tell us that Jesus prayed, that he worshiped God. Who was Jesus praying to? Was he praying to himself? I do not believe that any Christian would hold such a position. Christians would agree that Jesus prayed to what they call “God the Father,” the first person in the “godhead.”
My question is simply this. If “God the Father” is an adequate and complete God for Jesus then why is He not enough for you?
Let me illustrate this from a different angle. I am sure that you have heard of Unitarian Christians. These are people who believe that Jesus was a great teacher, a great prophet, the promised Messiah, a vicarious atonement but these people believe that he was not divine. There are two separate attractions pulling at the heart of the Unitarian Christian. On the one hand there is God, Creator and sustainer of all existence. And on the other hand there is Jesus who pulls at the Unitarian’s heart as a human hero.
Now imagine if this Unitarian were to become a Trinitarian. What would happen to this Unitarian’s love for Jesus? Will it simply disappear? No, not at all. He will simply elevate that love to the level of complete surrender that is appropriate toward God and tell himself that Jesus and God are in some mysterious way “one and the same.”
Or imagine if a Trinitarian would want to become a Unitarian. Would this Trinitarian need to develop a new love in his heart toward Jesus? Would he have to find a new attraction to connect his heart to Jesus? Of course not! All he will have to do is take that same love that he already has toward Jesus and downgrade it from total surrender to a level that is appropriate toward a human hero but he won’t have to invent a new love.
This clearly illustrates that the attraction that God has for the human heart and the attraction that Jesus has for the human heart are two different attractions.
And if you open the book of Psalms, the book in which David opened his heart you will find David’s love for God. You will hear the joy that David found in God. And you will find how David saw it as the mission of his life to articulate and to bring to life the truth that the God that he loved is the only God that your heart needs.
LikeLike
yhwh the animal
“Such a group under the leadership of Aaron may have broken away from allegiance to Moses and insisted on a bull figure as their symbol of the divine presence…
It should be noted that the Golden Calf does not violate the prescription of the Ten Commandments regarding false images (20:4-5). That prohibition concerns the person of Yahweh, whereas the Golden Calf (actually a young bull) looks to an attribute of Yahweh -strength… Israel’s history, however, shows that the people did not always distinguish between the deity and the deity’s attribute and so identified the young bull with Yahweh (see Hos 13:2).”
[5] Craghan, J. F. (1992). Exodus. In Dianne Bergant (Ed.), The Collegeville Bible Commentary Based on the New American Bible: Old Testament. Collegeville, Minnesota: The Liturgical Press. p. 109
LikeLike
behold israel thy lord is an animal
https://isthatinthebible.wordpress.com/2016/04/10/behold-your-gods-o-israel-the-golden-calves-of-aaron-and-jeroboam/
LikeLike
” the great majority of scholars believe the golden calves represented Yahweh himself”
https://isthatinthebible.wordpress.com/2016/04/10/behold-your-gods-o-israel-the-golden-calves-of-aaron-and-jeroboam/
LikeLike
quote :
Philo’s description of Moses, who is called ‘god and king of the whole nation’, included some mastery over creation:
For, since God judged him worthy to appear as a partner of His own possessions, He gave into his hands the whole world as a portion well fitted for His heir. Therefore, each element obeyed him as its master, changed its natural properties and submitted to his command… (Vit Mos 1.155-156)
Compare the similar language in Mk 4.41: ‘Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?’ I’d use Greek, Alan, but it’s a bit of a hassle right now. Nevertheless, the linguistic similarities are there if you check. Another text (sometimes noted) is the description of the anointed figure in 4Q521: ‘[for the heav]ens and the earth will listen to his anointed one…’ Hopefully now you can see that the Markan miracles do not necessarily have to be taken as indicating divinity in the strongest possible sense.
LikeLike
http://unveiling-christianity.net/2016/02/02/yahweh-golden-calf-aaron-gods-spokesperson-declared-exodus-32/
LikeLike
Throughout the Jewish Scriptures we find mocking remarks directed against idols and idolatry. The prophets describe the idols as: “… those who do not see or hear…” (Deuteronomy 4:28, Psalm 115:5, see also Habakuk 2:18). The prophets ridicule idols of wood and stone (Deuteronomy 28:36, 29:16, 2Kings 19:18, Ezekiel 20:32). The Scriptures describe idolatry as worshiping the handiwork of men (Deuteronomy 27:15, 31:29, 1Kings 16:7, Isaiah 2:8, 37:19, Jeremiah 10:3, Hosea 14:4, Micah 5:12, Psalm 135:15).
In this same spirit, Isaiah presents us with a vivid teaching on the subject of idolatry (Isaiah 44:6-20). The prophet describes how the craftsman exerts himself to create an idol. The prophet then speaks of the wood that is used to make the statue. Isaiah points out how one part of the wood is used to provide heat and cooking fuel for the same person who worships the image that had been fashioned from the other half of the same piece of wood.
What is the point of all this? Most idolaters would argue that it is not the statue that they are worshiping, but rather they worship the spirit that the statue represents. Furthermore, throughout history, many idolaters worshiped natural objects such as the sun, the moon, cats, cows and various people. How do the Scriptural lessons on idolatry pertain to these idolaters? Why is there so much emphasis on mocking the physical statue when in many cases the actual statue is not the focus of the idolater’s devotion?
When we understand the underlying principle of worship and devotion we will be able to appreciate the Scriptural lesson.
Worship of the Divine demands that one submit totally and unconditionally to God. Such absolute submission is only appropriate from created towards Creator, from one who is intrinsically a subject to One who is intrinsically the Master. The One who created everything and continuously sustains everything already owns every facet of our existence. It all belongs to Him and to Him alone. In submitting ourselves to Him we are merely acknowledging the truth of our complete dependence upon His mercy.
The key principles of worship and devotion are: Creator, the One to whom we belong, and the Master who is inherently the Master of all.
With this understanding we can now look at the Scriptural mockery of idolatry with clarity. Every statue is but a symbol, a representative of some concept or some entity. The statue will have to share some commonality, real or imagined, with the concept or entity that it is meant to represent. A statue can be used to symbolize almost any concept or entity. One can create a statue to represent the concepts of prosperity, of good fortune, of fertility, of strength, of forgiveness from sin and of human excellence.
There is one concept that can never be represented by a statue. There is one entity that can share no commonality with any physical body. That concept is the concept of “intrinsic Master” and “Creator of all”. When we think in the terms of “Creator versus created” and “the true Owner of all versus His subjects” – every entity that can be encompassed by our finite minds – will fall on the side of created and subject. There is nothing that can be used to represent the true Master and Creator because everything that we might use is equally subject and created by the Master and Creator.
The mockery of the prophets focuses on the concepts of “Creator” and “Master”. When one creates a statue and submits himself or herself to it – then the concept of worship has been completely subverted. The human is the creator of the statue, and the wood from which the statue is formed is actually the servant of man in the heat and light with which humanity is served. Whoever bows to a statue cannot be thinking in the terms of “Creator” and “Master”, because the statue is both “created” and “servant”.
Any worship aside from the worship of the One infinite Creator of all can be represented by a statue. Let us take the Christian devotion to Jesus as an example. Jesus was contained in a physical body that walked this earth. There is no intrinsic reason why he cannot be represented by a replica of his physical body. Since Jesus was limited to a physical body there is no reason why a finite physical body cannot be used to represent him.
In fact those who worship Jesus do not think in the terms of “Creator” or “the One to whom all belong”. The Christian devotees of Jesus think in the terms of obtaining forgiveness from sin, escaping the fires of hell, and acquiring a place in eternal life. If these followers of Jesus were to ask themselves: “does this man already own every facet of my existence?” – “is this man the Creator of all existence?” – they would not be directing their worship and devotion to a finite inhabitant of God’s earth. It is only when these crucial questions are ignored that the path is open for idolatry
LikeLike
quote :
Jeremiah 2:5New International Version (NIV)
5 This is what the Lord says:
“What fault did your ancestors find in me,
that they strayed so far from me?
They followed worthless idols
and became worthless themselves.
quoting jewish commentary on this
In Jeremiah’s days there were Jews who strayed after idols and God asked them; “what flaw did you find in Me?” (Jeremiah 2:5). God asks Israel; what were you missing in your worship of Me? What joy did you not find in your relationship with Me? And this is the question that the Jew asks the Church. Why do we need Jesus? What does Jesus have to offer to us that God didn’t already give us? What will we find in Jesus that we don’t have in God? What are we missing when we love God as David did before us? What can we be missing? Can you add anything on to God?
LikeLike
https://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=x-raw-image%3A%2F%2F%2Fd3bbf02f9e30c7e7f04d89fd7d1f67f7af8cb152ce580f86531022a4781bd83c&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fderrickbowdown2yhwh.blogspot.com%2F2013%2F09%2Fjesus-or-draculas-blood-un-holy.html&docid=Oo8m6es_FP7ipM&tbnid=58cwni_wu9NCeM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwjgt–H-frWAhUBLcAKHbNmDvQQMwhfKC4wLg..i&w=754&h=374&bih=607&biw=1280&q=eating%20and%20drinking%20jesus%20cannibalism&ved=0ahUKEwjgt–H-frWAhUBLcAKHbNmDvQQMwhfKC4wLg&iact=mrc&uact=8
quote :
John unbelievably admits that after Jesus started teaching cannibalism, some of his disciples stopped following him (John 6:66)
LikeLike
Likewise, at the so-called Last Supper, Jesus attempted to overwrite the Pesach with his own narrative. A day that was dedicated to remembering God’s removal of Israel from Exodus was now to be a day to commemorate Jesus’ death. Jesus is taking something that refers one to God, a day set aside eternally just for this purpose, and repurposing it to make it about himself. This is far from your claim that he always referred people to Hashem. In fact, he is taking a memorial that does refer people to Hashem and now making it to refer to himself. He exalts himself over God, the antithesis of your assertion.
The Church continues to exalt Jesus over God in the same manner, of course. Shavuot has become for the Church, Pentecost. A day dedicated to celebrating God granting Israel a most precious gift is to become a day about receiving the ability to speak a foreign language without having to learn. Shabbat is not about honoring the Creator but the supposed resurrection. And one may read the works of various counter-counter-missionaries to see how they relate the festivals to Jesus. The things meant to focus the nation of priests on their God are now rewritten by the Church to focus humanity on Jesus. How reminiscent of the one who “shall attempt to change the sacred seasons and the law” (Dan. 7.24).
LikeLike
quote
The vast majority of Christians want Jews to look at a person (who by all rational definitions) lived, breathed, and DIED in appearance as a man. The NT reinforces a sense of scepticism when revelation 13 and 2 Thessalonians both say that an imposter will come, say he is G-d, and lead people astray with miraculous signs.
lol
LikeLike
do not worship a random man who comes to you with holes in his hands and feet.
LikeLike
yhwh the invisible being does not change .
https://isthatinthebible.wordpress.com/2016/05/20/jesus-the-shapeshifter-in-early-christian-tradition/
LikeLike
very interesting comment :
“Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book. But these are written so that you may come to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through believing you may have life in his name”
This is ridiculous the same Jesus warned people not to be decieved by the miracles of false prophets and here we are told Jesus did all these miracles so that we may believe… And those that believe will do more miracles. By what then are we to know the truth?
Not only that, but the entire time, Jesus claims to be performing miracles to prove (and many believed unto him after that) despite the fact that Deuteronomy states that just because someone performs great signs and accurately predicts the future, it doesn’t mean they are to be obeyed. I even get this to this day. The first thing Christians respond with when I tell them “if Jesus was a human, and you still think he was god, how do you know I’m not god? Would you believe I was god if I told you I was?”, and they reply “well, can you do miracles?” This means that not only would they follow my commands if I could turn water into wine, but I’d be able to convince them I created the universe and was the God of the OT if could turn water into wine. That is grossly anti-biblical.
LikeLike
We know that when the Dajjal (anti-Christ) returns he will be given the power to do miraculous deeds. Because of this, many people in the end of days will follow him believing that he is either a Prophet of God, or even God himself. Based on Christian beliefs that a human who performs miracles is a divinely sanctioned Prophet or God, it would be easy to predict that many of those who are deluded in the end of days by the Dajjal will likely be Christians. But only Allah knows for sure.
LikeLike
LikeLike
why the jews say they don’t need human sacrifice :
The Church imagines a god with a foreshortened arm, a god with no strength. He is a god bound in rules and either unable or unwilling to forgive unless suffering is inflicted upon someone, even the innocent. In Ezekiel 33:10, the people have said: “Our transgressions and our sins weigh upon us, and we waste away because of them; how then can we live?” The Church echoes this question. It is the question on the lips of every missionary. But the answer of the Church does not match that of Ezekiel. The answer of the Church does not match that of HaShem. Ezekiel continues: “Say to them, ‘As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn back from their ways and live.’” The Church might acknowledge that HaShem has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but then it responds that He takes pleasure in the death of the righteous. But this is not what Ezekiel says. Ezekiel says that HaShem wishes that we would turn away from our ways. HaShem says of those that turn back to Him: “None of the sins that they have committed shall be remembered against them; they have done what is lawful and right, they shall surely live” (Ez. 33:16). No one need die for the sins of another; one need only turn back to HaShem.
The Church will say that this is to make light of God’s righteousness. They will say that someone must pay the penalty for sin, if not the sinner then someone. In this, they echo what the people say in Ezekiel: “The way of the Lord is not just…” (Ezekiel 33:17). It does not seem right to them that HaShem would ‘just’ forgive a person. But HaShem’s response is that “it is their own way that is not just” (Ezekiel 33:17). And He reiterates that He desires the wicked to repent: “And when the wicked turn from their wickedness, and do what is lawful and right, they shall live by it” (Ez. 33:19).
Sadly, the Church often portrays this teaching as trusting in one’s own righteousness. But this is not the case at all. Indeed, this is trust in the promise of HaShem, trust in His love and in His goodness and in His mercy. This is the God that assured Moses of His mercy: “…a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for the thousandth generation” (Ex. 34:7). We can be assured of His kindness extended toward us. So assured can we be that we know that if he punishes us, it is for our good, an act of kindness: “My child, do not despise the Lord’s discipline or be weary of his reproof, for the Lord reproves the one he loves, as a father the son in whom he delights” (Prov. 3:11-12). Such punishments are a call to return to Him, where we are assured of His forgiveness, mercy, and generosity.
One of the blessings of God is the conscience. It serves to motivate one to review his actions, to see if he has not violated God’s precepts, to see if he has not ill-used another. Guilt, when used properly, is a blessing, urging the sinner to return to HaShem. But guilt can be a burden to those that do not properly heed it. The guilty can become hopeless, feeling he may never be right with God, as those in Ezekiel. The Church compounds this guilt by telling its adherents that they are so bad that God could never forgive them. Not only that, an innocent man needed to be terribly shamed, beaten, and murdered on their behalf. This can create in incredibly over-powering guilt in people, creating in them the sense that they are worthless.
All this leads to the mistake of putting their trust in a man rather than in HaShem. Because they have been told that HaShem could never tolerate them, He feels forever far away. Moreover, He is an object of fear, because He would destroy them. Jesus on the other hand, rather than wanting to destroy them, was willing to suffer and die for them. His love appears to the Christian to be so much greater than the love of God. God was willing to send someone else to die. Jesus was willing to actually do the dying.
And so his trust and affection is given to a man.
All the while, he does not know that HaShem did not need someone to die for Him. He does not know that HaShem loves him enough to forgive him if he will but make amends and return to HaShem. He does not know that his trust in a man is misplaced, but trust in HaShem can never be misplaced. HaShem does not wish his destruction. Nor is HaShem powerless to forgive those that have violated His Torah.
You are right to put your trust in HaShem.
LikeLike
///////////////////
Thirdly. mohammed and allah completely miss the boat when it comes to comprehending the point of the NT – probably because they were ignorant of it. The good news – and most significant revelation of all the scriptures – is that god is a loving father who has taken the punishment for sin onto himself, freeing man to choose repentance or not. Our sins are forgiven.
RESPONSE :
Major Problems with the Christian Concept of Salvation: The Trinity becomes muddled in Christian Soteriology
by Ibn Anwar, BHsc. (Hons), MCollT
The concept of vicarious atonement is fundamental to mainstream Christianity. It is postulated that salvation is only acquirable through the acceptance of the death of Jesus on the cross as a divinely instituted sacrifice. In this Christian salvific saga, the Father is said to pour all His Wrath onto the Son and in so doing, He satisfies the need for Justice where sin is concerned. The so called tension between Justice and Mercy– a unique concept in western Christianity* –is resolved and God can appropriately offer the latter without dispensing with the former.
Upon close inspection of the above doctrine, which is the most fundamental feature of western Christian faith, several problems and difficulties arise.
Firstly, the inescapable impression that the vicarious atonement gives is that the Father is the source of Wrath and the Son is the source of Love. Whilst the Father punishes, the Son gives. These two in Christian theology are supposed to be equal in every respect. They are designated as ‘Persons’ within One God. If that were true, then this God, apparently, did not satisfy the alleged tension between the attributes of Justice and Mercy after all or if He did, then He only managed to satisfy one third of Justice because the rest of God, i.e., the Son and the Holy Spirit, did not
pour out their Wrath.
And this fact is in direct opposition to John 5:19 which says that the Son does everything and anything He sees the Father does. If John 5:19 were true then the vicarious atonement would be false as it would render the Son as wrathful instead of loving whilst he was affixed on the cross, but if the vicarious atonement were true, then John 5:19 would be false because the Son did not emulate the Father’s wrath but was instead exuding love in his sacrifice. However, according to standard Christian teaching, the Wrath that is said to have been poured onto the Son on the cross was supposed to have been the complete and full Wrath of God as a complete entity. If one accepts that premise, then one must reevaluate one’s reading of those many instances in the Bible where God shows His Wrath. If the cross received the full measure of God’s Wrath and only the Father actually poured His Wrath on it, the necessary implication is that God’s attribute of wrathfulness belongs only to the Father and so the wrathful instances of God in biblical history were instances of only the Father and not the full God, which is supposed to be the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit together. Following this line of thought, one must then necessarily surmise that Justice comes only from the Father who satisfies it with His Wrath. If that were true, then God as a complete Being becomes crippled with disproportionate attributes unevenly distributed to the three members that make up the One Being.
Secondly, in this Christian story of salvation, because the Son shows love and offers himself to be tortured and killed in order that mankind be forgiven and saved from the Father’s frightening wrath, would that not lead a believer to adore the Son more than the Father. The Father would instead be terribly feared, would He not? Could this be the reason why Christians focus much of their attention on Jesus but less so on the Father?
Thirdly, in the love-hate relationship between the Father and the Son on the cross, have you noticed something? The Holy Spirit is missing! He is completely non-existent in the picture. In Christianity’s beloved story of salvation that Christians cannot help but share with the rest of the world, the Holy Spirit is forgotten. Apparently, to save humanity one member of the Trinity can be dispensed with. And that means the vicarious atonement paradigm necessitates the conclusion that God as a complete entity is not required to save mankind, therefore, the statement that “God so loved the world…” is quite misleading in Trinitarian theology.
LikeLike
and they both used to eat
LikeLike
this is joels god appearing as shiva in sub continent.
LikeLike
if you allow the son to become a man, what is stopping the ghost from becoming the wife of the father and the father becoming a husband ?
its all possible in trinity world
quote:
In Greek circles there were religions that maintained that Sophia was indeed a divine being. She (the word Sophia in Greek is feminine, so the divine being is always imagined as female) is especially prominent in forms of Gnosticism. But Sophia also came to be thought of as a (subservient) divine being in Jewish circles as well. Speculation on Sophia begins with the Hebrew Bible, especially Proverbs 8. Read it and you’ll see: “Wisdom” is said to have been with God in the beginning when he created all things, and to have participated with God in the creation (since he made all things using his wisdom). In fact, she is said to be the master creator herself through whom God created and even God’s consort in the beginning. In some Jewish circles Sophia, then, came to be thought of as not simply something people have, but as a divine hypostasis that is in the world. This view probably came to influence the Gospel of John, for whom a male hypostasis – the Logos (or “Word”) – was with God in the beginning, was himself God, yet was distinct from God, and was the one through whom all things were made (see John 1:1-3).
http://ehrmanblog.org/readers-weekly-mailbag-january-2-2016/
quote:
In Jewish Kabbalah the second emanation from God (after the Keter or Crown) is a split entity of Wisdom (chakhmah) and Understanding (binah), both of which are female. Some kabbalists add Understanding (da’at) as a unifier between them. From there the emanations progress through Grace, Might, Glory and Compassion down to the Foundation of the world and, ultimately, God’s Kingdom (malkhut). Most of this Kabbalah stuff post-dates Jesus by centuries, but the core of it comes from the very Neo-Platonic ideas that were common amongst thinkers in Jesus’ time (cf. Philo of Alexandria), so it’s not surprising that Judaism, Christianity and pagan philosophies have the Wisdom emanation entity in common.
quote:
Regarding Sophia/Wisdom, it is beyond our comprehension as to how that works with the essence of GOD being a spirit. Makes me wonder about his other attributes of Love, Power and Justice whether they follow the same substance as Wisdom???
quote:
I’m not saying that I think Sophia is a divine being in Proverbs 8, but that this is how the passage came to function in later Jewish reflection. There are indeed numerous Jewish texts that understand there to be other divine beings along with God I deal with all this in my book How Jesus Became God.
LikeLike
jew says that christians worship human body
LikeLike
God does not get taken over by death,He has full control and power over it.God does not die and rise from death,death cannot OVERTAKE GOD, or make him experience losing life. We call Him al hay al qayyum.
LikeLike
yourphariseefriend says:
April 27, 2018 at 9:03 am
tony Exactly! The Christian claim that Jesus is God is no more than a word game. If someone loves God with all his/her heart. soul and might, the Christian would still want to take part of that love (if not all of it) and give it to Jesus.
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
LikeLike
cr:
“You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars–all the heavenly array–do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.” (Deuteronomy 4:15-19)
Your gospel texts confirm that I have the right reading of Deuteronomy 4 because when the beast of revelation comes seeking worship as a man claiming to be a god sitting in the temple, your book tells you to ignore such a one at the cost of your very life.
Ergo, you have a double standard, special pleading, and cognitive dissonance that you are applying unconsciously only in the case of the Nazarene.
I say the Bible teaches unilaterally not to pray to or pay homage to anything that looks like a human being.
You would say the same, but you make an exception for Jesus.
However, I do not even see a physical Nazarene anywhere on planet earth at the moment do you?
You say he is in heaven!
Meanwhile, I see images, sects, and pop culture images everywhere!
So, in the here and now, what is it in terms of actual divine service that you are advocating?
Christian services.
You would love people to go to a Church on Sunday, or Saturday and look at a wooden image of a man on a cross, and hear the stories, hoping that they be reminded and associate this image and various prophetic texts with Yeshua who died 2,000 years ago.
The verses I gave you just above would completely contradict this kind of religious service in form if not functionally as foreign to the covenant.
You never met Jesus, neither did I, we only heard the stories from pastors and family. Based on these stories, we went to Church, where we saw crosses or Crucifixes, and they said “Jesus died for you” pointing to that image!
Imagine if instead of a golden calf, Israel had made a golden Moses.
Based off of their memories of him, they teach the people.
Imagine that while Moses is on the mountain, the people of Israel are telling stories of his mighty works and setting up communities. People go to large temples and gaze at the Golden Moses behind the pulpit and they are healed from all matter of diseases. They sing songs about Moses, they celebrate his birth, his miraculous escape from Egyot, and they await the day he will return.
Now, imagine that he is on the mountain for 1,000 years. Everyone who knew him while he was on earth has died. Are you telling me that he would recognize a damn thing when he comes down with the tablets of the law?
I submit to you, that this is the only kind of service you could ever be advocating for concerning Jesus, because that kind of service is all the gospels have to offer.
LikeLike