Given the direction academic studies of the Quran is taking, scholars no longer believe Muhammad(saw) confused the two Marys. What uneducated imbeciles like Shamoun think is a different matter.
Since the imbecile decided to bark out an insult here at yours truly, I am now writing a thorough rebuttal to his idol Ally who is just as dishonest and wicked as ksmackedintheheadbytheblackstone is, and will be doing a youtube session shaming Ally for his wicked lies and misinformation here by the grace of Christ. I am sure kthestonemuhammadsmoocheddamagedmybrainwillenjoyit.
How dare you, mr disgusting
You need to be thrown in any trash like you. You shouldn’t be able to write here anymore
It’s really disturbing this wicked man can insult our beloved prophet pbuh here!
Br. Paul, you should kick this trash out ASAP.
It’s hilarious how you’re ignoring the issue of Jesus’ lineage in the gospels, which is a biblical blunder, and try to hopelessly attack Islam. Blind hatred apparently destroys intelligence.
paulus man, you are an apologist man, your job is to reconcile the problems in the bible and create a new account which christianity never saw. why do you not do the same for the quran?
quote :
“In the FOOTSTEPS of these [messengers] We sent forth Jesus son of Mary, who corroborated the Torah already present. And We gave him the Gospel in which there is guidance and light.”
end quote
moses is not the uncle of jesus paulus
quote :
So Jesus is said to follow Moses after a period of multiple Messengers and religious people within Israel, hardly a time of the same period that his mother would supposedly be from the time of Moses and his brother Aaron .
quote :
One could counter that the verses examined mention only Aaron being the sister of Mary so perhaps Muḥammad did not know Aaron had a brother called Moses. This can be answered by reading the Qur’an where Moses and Aaron are clearly depicted as brothers. The question posed is thus: Did Muḥammad and/or the Qur’an really understand Moses to be Jesus uncle? Were Jesus and Moses separated by only a single generation? The Qur’an mentions that Jesus and Moses both reached maturity and adulthood. Consequently, applying the confused genealogy of the critics would have the Qur’anic Jesus and Moses both alive at the same time. Surprising though it may seem, as far as we are aware, none of earlier scholars delved any further into their proposed genealogies other than to suggest that Muḥammad thought Jesus son of Mary was the brother of Aaron and Moses. Are there any statements present in the Qur’an which suggest that Jesus and Moses lived at the same time? No. In fact, Moses and his brother Aaron are placed in an ancient Egyptian setting during the time of the Pharaoh, far removed in place and time from first century Palestine.
now lets look at jesus’ empty tomb, alleged crucifixion and resurrection
If you think you’re being clever, you’re just shooting yourself in the foot.
Where in the gospels is the lineage of Mary?
Why do they show the lineage of Joseph the carpenter when he’s not Jesus’ father?
Why are they contradictory?
How do you contend with the Luke’s gospel which says that Mary was Elizabeth’s cousin; which would mean she was probably a Levite and not descendant from David?
Doesn’t that mean that Jesus was a priestly Messiah, not the Messiah the son of David?
Classical Muslim Scholarship is based on Ijtihad, we’re not obliged to follow their interpretation if we ourselves can make our own Ijtihad.
It’s hilarious how you’re ignoring the issue of Jesus’ lineage in the gospels, which is a biblical blunder, and try to hopelessly attack Islam. Blind hatred apparently destroys intelligence.
What does the lineage of Mary in the Gospels have to do WITH THE FACT THAT YOUR ISLAMIC TRADITION CONFIRMS JESUS’ PHYSICAL LINEAGE TO DAVID? Let me quote what your scholars wrote:
“The Persians assert that sixty-five years after Alexander seized Babylonia, and fifty-one years after Arsacid rule began, Mary the daughter of ‘Imran gave birth to Jesus. But the Christians assert that Jesus was born to her 303 years after Alexander conquered Babylonia, and that John the Baptist was born six months before Jesus. They report that Mary was pregnant with Jesus when she was thirteen years old. They also report that Jesus lived thirty-two years and a few days before his ascension, and that Mary lived six more years after his ascension, altogether over fifty years. They assert that John and Jesus met in the Jordan River when Jesus was thirty years of age, and that John was slain before the ascension of Jesus. Zechariah b. Berechiah, the father of Yahya b. Zechariah, and ‘Imran b. Matthan, the father of Mary, were married to two sisters. One was married to Zechariah- she was the mother of John, the other was with ‘Imran b. Matthan, and she was the mother of Mary. ‘Imran b. Matthan died when the mother of Mary was pregnant with her. When Mary was born, Zechariah provided for her after her mother’s death, because her aunt, the sister of her mother, was with him. The name of Mary’s mother was Hanna bt. Faqud b. Qabil; the name of the sister of Mary’s mother, that is, the name of John’s mother was Elizabeth bt. Faqud. Zechariah provided for Mary, and she was engaged to Joseph b. Jacob b. Mathan b. Eleazar b. Eliud b. Achim b. Zadok b. Azor b. Eliakim b. Abiud b. Zerubbabel, b. Shealtiel b. Jechonia b. Josiah b. Amon b. Manasseh b. Hezekiah b. Ahaziah b. Jotham b. Uzziah b. Joram b. Jehosaphat b. Asa b. Abijah b. Rehoboam b. SOLOMON B. DAVID.
According to Ibn Humayd – Salamah – Ibn Ishaq: As far as I could learn from her lineage, Mary was the daughter of ‘Imran b. Josiah b. Amon b. Manasse b. Hezekiah b. Ahaziah b. Jotham b. Azariah b. Amaziah b. Joash b. Ahaziah b. Joram b. Jehosaphat b. Asa b. Abijah b. Rehoboam b. SOLOMON. (The History of al-Tabari Volume IV – The Ancient Kingdom, Moshe Perlman trans. [The State University of New York Press (SUNY), Albany, NY 1987], pp. 103-104)
Hence, al-Tabari cites traditions that affirm that both Joseph AND Mary were descendants of King David.
Another renowned scholar Ibn Kathir wrote the following in reference to Q. 19:16:
(And mention in the Book, Maryam,) She was Maryam bint `ImranFROM THE FAMILY LINEAGE OF DAWUD. She was from a good and wholesome family of the Children of Israel. Allah mentioned the story of her mother’s pregnancy with her in Surah Al `Imran, and that she (Maryam’s mother) dedicated her freely for the service of Allah. This meant that she dedicated the child (Maryam) to the service of the Masjid of the Sacred House (in Jerusalem). Thus, they (Zakariyya, Maryam’s mother and Maryam) were similar in that aspect. (Capital emphasis ours)
Ibn Kathir further mentioned how Muslims used Jesus’ example to prove that a man can trace his lineage through his mother:
“… Mentioning `Isa in the offspring of Ibrahim, or Nuh as we stated above, is proof that the grandchildren from a man’s daughter’s side are included among his offspring. `Isa is included among Ibrahim’s progeny through his mother, although `Isa did not have a father. Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Abu Harb bin Abi Al-Aswad said, ‘Al-Hajjaj sent to Yahya bin Ya`mar, saying, “I was told that you claim that Al-Hasan and Al-Hussein are from the offspring of the Prophet, did you find it in the Book of Allah? I read the Qur’an from beginning to end and did not find it.” Yahya said, “Do you not read in Surah Al-An`am…
(and among his progeny Dawud, Sulayman…) until, (and Yahya and `Isa…).
Al-Hajjaj said, “Yes.” Yahya said, “Is not `Isa from the offspring of Ibrahim, although he did not have a father!” Al-Hajjaj said, “You have said the truth.”’ For example, when a man leaves behind a legacy, a trust, or gift to his ‘offspring’ then the children of his daughters are included. But if a man gives something to his ‘sons’, or he leaves a trust behind for them, then that would be particular to his male children and their male children…” (Q. 6:84-90 http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=991&Itemid=61)
And according to the following Muslim source, all of the classical Islamic scholars unanimously held to the view the blessed mother of our risen Lord was a descendant of king David:
“The Qur’an informs us that the father of Mary was named ‘Imran and the classical Muslim scholars UNANIMOUSLY ACCEPT that she was from the line of the prophet David… Differences of opinion emerge, however, over the intervening genealogy, most probably due to a lack of familiarity with such foreign names and consequent error in recording them in the Arabic orthography. According to the Spanish exegete al-Qurtubi, ‘All these differences are mentioned because the Prophets and Messengers are all descendants one of the other.’ The following genealogy (taking into account orthographic variations), which is attributed to Ibn Ishaq or directly to the Prophet’s companion Ibn ‘Abbas, is the most generally accepted: Mary bint ‘Imran ibn Yashim ibn Misha ibn Hazqiya ibn Yawish (ibn Isha ibn Yahushafat) IBN SULAYMAN IBN DAWUD… Although the name of her mother is not supplied in the Qur’an, it is universally accepted as Hanna bint Faqudh.” (Aliah Schleifer, Mary The Blessed Virgin of Islam [Fons Vitae; ISBN: 1887752021; July 1, 1998], pp. 22-23; capital emphasis ours)
NOW DEAL WITH THIS!
And thinking you are smart IF THERE IS NO LINEAGE OF MARY IN THE GOSPELS THEN YOU PRETTY MUCH DESTROYED SHABIR AND YOUR QURAN BECAUSE THAT MEANS YOU HAVE NO PROOF THAT SHE IS FROM THE TRIBE OF LEVI?
To claim that Muslim Exegists UNANIMOUSLY said that Mary descended from David is a BIG LIE, typical of xtian missionaries.
The Mother of all Tafsirs mention reports which state that Mary descends from Aaron, which includes Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Tafsir Al-Tabari, Tafsir Al-Qurtubi, Tafsir Al-Baghawi.
Such report confirm that Mary was a Levite, which explains Luke’s mention of her being a cousin of Elizabeth.
It’s pathetic when you can’t prove something from your own bible. There’s ZERO mention of Mary’s genealogy in the gospels, but two CONTRADICTORY lineages of Joseph who did not even sire Jesus.
Plus, it is not a dogma in Islam to believe Jesus was descended from any particular tribe. If one says he descended from Judah, or Levi, or even Ephraim makes ZERO difference to Islamic doctrine. On the other hand, it is IMPERATIVE for xtians to prove he descends from David, and as we’ve seen, they’re clutching at straws like drowning men.
“And thinking you are smart IF THERE IS NO LINEAGE OF MARY IN THE GOSPELS THEN YOU PRETTY MUCH DESTROYED SHABIR AND YOUR QURAN BECAUSE THAT MEANS YOU HAVE NO PROOF THAT SHE IS FROM THE TRIBE OF LEVI?”
Boy, you don’t need to excessively use Caps.
DR. SHABIR SAID MARY WAS LEVITE BECAUSE LUKE SAYS SHE WAS ELIZABETH’S COUSIN. GET IT? WHICH MEANS BASICALLY YOU CAN’T PROVE JESUS WAS THE SON OF DAVID, NOR DO YOU HAVE THE GENEALOGY OF MARY, WHICH MEANS YOU JUST BURIED YOUR RELIGION SIX FEET UNDER.
Bro, I do need to put this in caps in order to cure you of your illiteracy. Now let’s see what happens to Ally’s appeal to Luke 1:36 to bail out your illiterate profit:
Now Ally may try to counter this fact by appealing to Luke 1:36 which identifies Elizabeth as Mary’s kinswoman or relative:
“Listen, your cousin Elizabeth has also conceived a son in her old age. And this is the sixth month with her who was declared barren.”
Ally may argue that, since Elizabeth is said to be a descendant of Aaron (cf. Luke 1:5), Mary must have also been from the household of Aaron.
There are two main problems with his argument. First, Luke goes out of his way to affirm Jesus’ Davidic descent,
“In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin’s name was Mary. The angel came to her and said, ‘Greetings, you who are highly favored. The Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women.’ When she saw him, she was troubled by his words, and considered in her mind what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, ‘Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. Listen, you will conceive in your womb and bear a Son and shall call His name JESUS. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest. And the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David, and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever. And of His kingdom there will be no end.’” Luke 1:26-33
“Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being, as was supposed, the son of Joseph, who was the son of Heli, who was the son of Matthat, who was the son of Levi, who was the son of Melchi, who was the son of Jannai, who was the son of Joseph, who was the son of Mattathias, who was the son of Amos, who was the son of Nahum, who was the son of Esli, who was the son of Naggai, who was the son of Maath, who was the son of Mattathias, who was the son of Semein, who was the son of Josech, who was the son of Joda, who was the son of Joanan, who was the son of Rhesa, who was the son of Zerubbabel, who was the son of Shealtiel, who was the son of Neri, who was the son of Melchi, who was the son of Addi, who was the son of Cosam, who was the son of Elmadam, who was the son of Er, who was the son of Joshua, who was the son of Eliezer, who was the son of Jorim, who was the son of Matthat, who was the son of Levi, who was the son of Simeon, who was the son of Judah, who was the son of Joseph, who was the son of Jonan, who was the son of Eliakim, who was the son of Melea, who was the son of Menna, who was the son of Mattatha, who was the son of Nathan, who was the son of David, who was the son of Jesse, who was the son of Obed, who was the son of Boaz, who was the son of Salmon, who was the son of Nahshon, who was the son of Amminadab, who was the son of Ram, who was the son of Hezron, who was the son of Perez, who was the son of Judah,” Luke 3:23-33
“Brothers, I may speak confidently to you concerning the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. But being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of his seed according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,” Acts 2:29-30
“When He had removed him, He raised up David to be their king, of whom He testified, saying, ‘I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will fulfill My entire will.’ From this man’s descendants God has raised a Savior for Israel, Jesus, according to His promise.” Acts 13:22-23
As do the rest of the inspired NT writers (cf. Matthew 1:1; Mark 10:47-48; Romans 1:3; 2 Timothy 2:8; Hebrews 7:14; Revelation 5:5; 22:16).
Secondly, the only thing that Luke 1:36 would prove is that Elizabeth had Judean blood in her, not that Mary was of the stock of Aaron. After all, the Holy Bible clearly teaches that Levitical priests were allowed to marry women from any of the twelve tribes of Israel:
“He shall take a wife in her virginity. A widow, or a divorced woman, or a defiled woman, or a prostitute, these he shall not marry. But he shall take for a wife a virgin of HIS OWN PEOPLE,” Leviticus 21:13-14
The prophet Ezekiel, in his vision of a restored priesthood and temple, further clarifies this point:
“But the Levites who have gone far from Me when Israel went astray, who went astray away from Me after their idols, they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity. Yet they shall be ministers in My sanctuary, having charge at the gates of the house and ministering to the house. They shall slay the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister to them… Nor shall they take for their wives a widow, nor her who has been put away. But they shall take maidens of the seed of THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL, or a widow who had a priest before.” Ezekiel 44:10-11, 22
The Holy Bible also provides an example of a priest who had married a woman from Judea, and who was actually a descendant of king David:
“So when Athaliah the mother of Ahaziah saw that her son was dead, she rose up and mounted a campaign to destroy all the royal offspring of the house of Judah. But Jehoshabeath, the daughter of the king, took Joash the son of Ahaziah and stole him away from the king’s sons who were going to be put to death, and she placed him and his nurse in a bed chamber. So Jehoshabeath, the daughter of King Jehoram and wife of Jehoiada the priest (since she was a sister of Ahaziah), hid Joash from Athaliah. And she did not put the royal child to death.” 2 Chronicles 22:10-11
What the foregoing shows is that it is more reasonable to assume that Elizabeth was from the line of David from her mother’s side, which would account for her being related to Mary.
As such, Luke 1:36 does very little to establish that Mary was from the line of Aaron, especially when the Biblical data points in the direction of her being a descendant of king David.
Now what was that about Luke and your fellow stone smoocher Ally?
“Luke goes out of his way to affirm Jesus’ Davidic descent”
The point is if we trace Jesus through his mother, which you agreed was appropriate, he would not be Davidic. Luke mentions the genealogy of Joseph, not Mary.
“Secondly, the only thing that Luke 1:36 would prove is that Elizabeth had Judean blood in her, not that Mary was of the stock of Aaron. After all, the Holy Bible clearly teaches that Levitical priests were allowed to marry women from any of the twelve tribes of Israel”
“What the foregoing shows is that it is more reasonable to assume that Elizabeth was from the line of David from her mother’s side, which would account for her being related to Mary.”
You really need to stop digging your own grave:
Luke 1:5 “In the days of King Herod of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly order of Abijah. HIS WIFE WAS A DESCENDANT OF AARON, and her name was Elizabeth.”
You wasted your time bringing quotes from the OT and NT which had nothing to do with the subject, then made non-sequitur arguments.
“As such, Luke 1:36 does very little to establish that Mary was from the line of Aaron, especially when the Biblical data points in the direction of her being a descendant of king David.”
The fact of the matter is, with the absence of Mary’s genealogy in your bible, the Lucan passage makes it more likely she was Levite. Thus if we trace Jesus’ lineage through her, which makes more sense, and which you agreed was appropriate, he would be a Levite, not Davidic.
“Rather, We dash the truth upon falsehood, and it destroys it, and thereupon it departs. And for you is destruction from that which you describe.” Quran 21:18
Being a “stone smoocher” is better than eating the flesh and blood of Jesus.
paulus man, you are an apologist man, your job is to reconcile the problems in the bible and create a new account which christianity never saw. why do you not do the same for the quran?
quote :
“In the FOOTSTEPS of these [messengers] We sent forth Jesus son of Mary, who corroborated the Torah already present. And We gave him the Gospel in which there is guidance and light.”
end quote
moses is not the uncle of jesus paulus
quote :
So Jesus is said to follow Moses after a period of multiple Messengers and religious people within Israel, hardly a time of the same period that his mother would supposedly be from the time of Moses and his brother Aaron .
quote :
One could counter that the verses examined mention only Aaron being the sister of Mary so perhaps Muḥammad did not know Aaron had a brother called Moses. This can be answered by reading the Qur’an where Moses and Aaron are clearly depicted as brothers. The question posed is thus: Did Muḥammad and/or the Qur’an really understand Moses to be Jesus uncle? Were Jesus and Moses separated by only a single generation? The Qur’an mentions that Jesus and Moses both reached maturity and adulthood. Consequently, applying the confused genealogy of the critics would have the Qur’anic Jesus and Moses both alive at the same time. Surprising though it may seem, as far as we are aware, none of earlier scholars delved any further into their proposed genealogies other than to suggest that Muḥammad thought Jesus son of Mary was the brother of Aaron and Moses. Are there any statements present in the Qur’an which suggest that Jesus and Moses lived at the same time? No. In fact, Moses and his brother Aaron are placed in an ancient Egyptian setting during the time of the Pharaoh, far removed in place and time from first century Palestine.
now lets look at jesus’ empty tomb, alleged crucifixion and resurrection
Did you know that Shabir Ally argues that Islam depicts Jesus as a priestly Messiah from the line of Aaron? Did you know that this too is a gross distortion of the fact since the Islamic sources confirm that Jesus returns physically to the earth to rule and judge righteously, thereby making him a Davidic Messiah? Don’t believe me? Then read the following post: https://answeringislamblog.wordpress.com/2017/08/25/what-type-of-messiah-does-the-quran-say-jesus-happens-to-be-pt-3/
According to the uneducated, unemployed, loser polemicist Shamoun, the Quran’s calling Mary the sister of Aaron is an error. According to Angelika Neuwirth who just happens to be one of the leading contemporary academic scholars of the Quran:
The name āl ʿImrān was long considered to reflect a typology that connects Mary with Miriam, the sister of Moses and Aaron, known from Genesis (cf Q 19:38) Mourad, “Mary,” has however, convincingly argued that the connection is not to Miriam but rather to Aaron, the founding figure of Israelite priesthood Indeed, a number of liturgical texts preserved in the eastern Church tradition, present Mary as
belonging to the Aaronid lineage (these texts will be made available as part of the research project “Corpus Coranicum: textual Documentation and Commentary on the Qurʾan”) This particular relation is reflected in the Qurʾan; accordingly, Mary’s father, in Christian tradition Joachim, can be referred to as Amram, her mother, in Christian tradition st Anne, as “the wife of Amram” (imraʾat ʿImrān, Q 3:5), and her entire family as “the House of Amram,” i e , āl ʿImrān… Tottoli, “ʿImrān,” 509, regards the inclusion of Mary and Jesus among the family of ʿImrān as a confusion that arose from “a Christian tendency to utilize earlier biblical figures as ‘types’ for later ones ” His erroneous verdict is due to a reading of the Qurʾan that ignores the fact that the Qurʾanic text presupposes a plethora of earlier exegetical traditions that make an immediate comparison to the biblical counterparts extremely problematic…(p.507, The Quran in context).
Here, also, is the first part of a series of responses I plan on doing in refutation of Shabir Ally’s bad polemics and misinformation. In this rebuttal I deal with his assertion that the Quran depicts Jesus as a priestly Messiah from the lineage of Aaron, and his denial that the Quran confuses Jesus’ mother with Moses’ sister: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXzlbIrWJfQ
Blogging Theology 
Nice…..
This is a good one too…
Actually, all of Dr. Shabir’s brief talks are very beneficial and illuminating mashallah. And so many of them are on youtube alhamdulillah.
LikeLike
Given the direction academic studies of the Quran is taking, scholars no longer believe Muhammad(saw) confused the two Marys. What uneducated imbeciles like Shamoun think is a different matter.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Since the imbecile decided to bark out an insult here at yours truly, I am now writing a thorough rebuttal to his idol Ally who is just as dishonest and wicked as ksmackedintheheadbytheblackstone is, and will be doing a youtube session shaming Ally for his wicked lies and misinformation here by the grace of Christ. I am sure kthestonemuhammadsmoocheddamagedmybrainwillenjoyit.
LikeLike
How dare you, mr disgusting
You need to be thrown in any trash like you. You shouldn’t be able to write here anymore
It’s really disturbing this wicked man can insult our beloved prophet pbuh here!
Br. Paul, you should kick this trash out ASAP.
LikeLike
May Allah Jalla Wa’ala protects brother Shabir Ally
LikeLike
Did you now that the Quran basically makes Moses the maternal uncle Jesus? Did you know that Shabir Ally tried to explain this serious blunder away by again adopting deceitful and dishonest arguments to do so? Don’t believe me? Then make sure to read pt. 1 of my latest post: https://answeringislamblog.wordpress.com/2017/08/25/what-type-of-messiah-does-the-quran-say-jesus-happens-to-be-pt-1/
LikeLike
Great work Sam. Muslims here are sticking their heads in the sand.
LikeLike
It’s hilarious how you’re ignoring the issue of Jesus’ lineage in the gospels, which is a biblical blunder, and try to hopelessly attack Islam. Blind hatred apparently destroys intelligence.
LikeLike
paulus man, you are an apologist man, your job is to reconcile the problems in the bible and create a new account which christianity never saw. why do you not do the same for the quran?
quote :
“In the FOOTSTEPS of these [messengers] We sent forth Jesus son of Mary, who corroborated the Torah already present. And We gave him the Gospel in which there is guidance and light.”
end quote
moses is not the uncle of jesus paulus
quote :
So Jesus is said to follow Moses after a period of multiple Messengers and religious people within Israel, hardly a time of the same period that his mother would supposedly be from the time of Moses and his brother Aaron .
quote :
One could counter that the verses examined mention only Aaron being the sister of Mary so perhaps Muḥammad did not know Aaron had a brother called Moses. This can be answered by reading the Qur’an where Moses and Aaron are clearly depicted as brothers. The question posed is thus: Did Muḥammad and/or the Qur’an really understand Moses to be Jesus uncle? Were Jesus and Moses separated by only a single generation? The Qur’an mentions that Jesus and Moses both reached maturity and adulthood. Consequently, applying the confused genealogy of the critics would have the Qur’anic Jesus and Moses both alive at the same time. Surprising though it may seem, as far as we are aware, none of earlier scholars delved any further into their proposed genealogies other than to suggest that Muḥammad thought Jesus son of Mary was the brother of Aaron and Moses. Are there any statements present in the Qur’an which suggest that Jesus and Moses lived at the same time? No. In fact, Moses and his brother Aaron are placed in an ancient Egyptian setting during the time of the Pharaoh, far removed in place and time from first century Palestine.
now lets look at jesus’ empty tomb, alleged crucifixion and resurrection
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/2017/08/responding-to-the-minimal-facts-argument-for-the-resurrection-2-habermas-jesus/
williams lane craigs minimal facts are receiving a wrecking job paulus and you are here writing comments?
what are you doing paulus? your god is receiving a WRECKING job.
LikeLike
Did you know that Shabir Ally claimed that the Islamic tradition doesn’t mention Jesus’ physical descent from David? Did you know that this is another boldfaced lie since classical Muslim scholarship unanimously affirmed Jesus’ physical lineage to David’s line via his blessed mother? Don’t believe me then read this: https://answeringislamblog.wordpress.com/2017/08/25/what-type-of-messiah-does-the-quran-say-jesus-happens-to-be-pt-2/
LikeLike
If you think you’re being clever, you’re just shooting yourself in the foot.
Where in the gospels is the lineage of Mary?
Why do they show the lineage of Joseph the carpenter when he’s not Jesus’ father?
Why are they contradictory?
How do you contend with the Luke’s gospel which says that Mary was Elizabeth’s cousin; which would mean she was probably a Levite and not descendant from David?
Doesn’t that mean that Jesus was a priestly Messiah, not the Messiah the son of David?
Classical Muslim Scholarship is based on Ijtihad, we’re not obliged to follow their interpretation if we ourselves can make our own Ijtihad.
LikeLike
It’s hilarious how you’re ignoring the issue of Jesus’ lineage in the gospels, which is a biblical blunder, and try to hopelessly attack Islam. Blind hatred apparently destroys intelligence.
LikeLike
What does the lineage of Mary in the Gospels have to do WITH THE FACT THAT YOUR ISLAMIC TRADITION CONFIRMS JESUS’ PHYSICAL LINEAGE TO DAVID? Let me quote what your scholars wrote:
“The Persians assert that sixty-five years after Alexander seized Babylonia, and fifty-one years after Arsacid rule began, Mary the daughter of ‘Imran gave birth to Jesus. But the Christians assert that Jesus was born to her 303 years after Alexander conquered Babylonia, and that John the Baptist was born six months before Jesus. They report that Mary was pregnant with Jesus when she was thirteen years old. They also report that Jesus lived thirty-two years and a few days before his ascension, and that Mary lived six more years after his ascension, altogether over fifty years. They assert that John and Jesus met in the Jordan River when Jesus was thirty years of age, and that John was slain before the ascension of Jesus. Zechariah b. Berechiah, the father of Yahya b. Zechariah, and ‘Imran b. Matthan, the father of Mary, were married to two sisters. One was married to Zechariah- she was the mother of John, the other was with ‘Imran b. Matthan, and she was the mother of Mary. ‘Imran b. Matthan died when the mother of Mary was pregnant with her. When Mary was born, Zechariah provided for her after her mother’s death, because her aunt, the sister of her mother, was with him. The name of Mary’s mother was Hanna bt. Faqud b. Qabil; the name of the sister of Mary’s mother, that is, the name of John’s mother was Elizabeth bt. Faqud. Zechariah provided for Mary, and she was engaged to Joseph b. Jacob b. Mathan b. Eleazar b. Eliud b. Achim b. Zadok b. Azor b. Eliakim b. Abiud b. Zerubbabel, b. Shealtiel b. Jechonia b. Josiah b. Amon b. Manasseh b. Hezekiah b. Ahaziah b. Jotham b. Uzziah b. Joram b. Jehosaphat b. Asa b. Abijah b. Rehoboam b. SOLOMON B. DAVID.
According to Ibn Humayd – Salamah – Ibn Ishaq: As far as I could learn from her lineage, Mary was the daughter of ‘Imran b. Josiah b. Amon b. Manasse b. Hezekiah b. Ahaziah b. Jotham b. Azariah b. Amaziah b. Joash b. Ahaziah b. Joram b. Jehosaphat b. Asa b. Abijah b. Rehoboam b. SOLOMON. (The History of al-Tabari Volume IV – The Ancient Kingdom, Moshe Perlman trans. [The State University of New York Press (SUNY), Albany, NY 1987], pp. 103-104)
Hence, al-Tabari cites traditions that affirm that both Joseph AND Mary were descendants of King David.
Another renowned scholar Ibn Kathir wrote the following in reference to Q. 19:16:
(And mention in the Book, Maryam,) She was Maryam bint `ImranFROM THE FAMILY LINEAGE OF DAWUD. She was from a good and wholesome family of the Children of Israel. Allah mentioned the story of her mother’s pregnancy with her in Surah Al `Imran, and that she (Maryam’s mother) dedicated her freely for the service of Allah. This meant that she dedicated the child (Maryam) to the service of the Masjid of the Sacred House (in Jerusalem). Thus, they (Zakariyya, Maryam’s mother and Maryam) were similar in that aspect. (Capital emphasis ours)
Ibn Kathir further mentioned how Muslims used Jesus’ example to prove that a man can trace his lineage through his mother:
“… Mentioning `Isa in the offspring of Ibrahim, or Nuh as we stated above, is proof that the grandchildren from a man’s daughter’s side are included among his offspring. `Isa is included among Ibrahim’s progeny through his mother, although `Isa did not have a father. Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Abu Harb bin Abi Al-Aswad said, ‘Al-Hajjaj sent to Yahya bin Ya`mar, saying, “I was told that you claim that Al-Hasan and Al-Hussein are from the offspring of the Prophet, did you find it in the Book of Allah? I read the Qur’an from beginning to end and did not find it.” Yahya said, “Do you not read in Surah Al-An`am…
(and among his progeny Dawud, Sulayman…) until, (and Yahya and `Isa…).
Al-Hajjaj said, “Yes.” Yahya said, “Is not `Isa from the offspring of Ibrahim, although he did not have a father!” Al-Hajjaj said, “You have said the truth.”’ For example, when a man leaves behind a legacy, a trust, or gift to his ‘offspring’ then the children of his daughters are included. But if a man gives something to his ‘sons’, or he leaves a trust behind for them, then that would be particular to his male children and their male children…” (Q. 6:84-90 http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=991&Itemid=61)
And according to the following Muslim source, all of the classical Islamic scholars unanimously held to the view the blessed mother of our risen Lord was a descendant of king David:
“The Qur’an informs us that the father of Mary was named ‘Imran and the classical Muslim scholars UNANIMOUSLY ACCEPT that she was from the line of the prophet David… Differences of opinion emerge, however, over the intervening genealogy, most probably due to a lack of familiarity with such foreign names and consequent error in recording them in the Arabic orthography. According to the Spanish exegete al-Qurtubi, ‘All these differences are mentioned because the Prophets and Messengers are all descendants one of the other.’ The following genealogy (taking into account orthographic variations), which is attributed to Ibn Ishaq or directly to the Prophet’s companion Ibn ‘Abbas, is the most generally accepted: Mary bint ‘Imran ibn Yashim ibn Misha ibn Hazqiya ibn Yawish (ibn Isha ibn Yahushafat) IBN SULAYMAN IBN DAWUD… Although the name of her mother is not supplied in the Qur’an, it is universally accepted as Hanna bint Faqudh.” (Aliah Schleifer, Mary The Blessed Virgin of Islam [Fons Vitae; ISBN: 1887752021; July 1, 1998], pp. 22-23; capital emphasis ours)
NOW DEAL WITH THIS!
And thinking you are smart IF THERE IS NO LINEAGE OF MARY IN THE GOSPELS THEN YOU PRETTY MUCH DESTROYED SHABIR AND YOUR QURAN BECAUSE THAT MEANS YOU HAVE NO PROOF THAT SHE IS FROM THE TRIBE OF LEVI?
You see how stupid you now look?
LikeLike
To claim that Muslim Exegists UNANIMOUSLY said that Mary descended from David is a BIG LIE, typical of xtian missionaries.
The Mother of all Tafsirs mention reports which state that Mary descends from Aaron, which includes Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Tafsir Al-Tabari, Tafsir Al-Qurtubi, Tafsir Al-Baghawi.
Such report confirm that Mary was a Levite, which explains Luke’s mention of her being a cousin of Elizabeth.
It’s pathetic when you can’t prove something from your own bible. There’s ZERO mention of Mary’s genealogy in the gospels, but two CONTRADICTORY lineages of Joseph who did not even sire Jesus.
Plus, it is not a dogma in Islam to believe Jesus was descended from any particular tribe. If one says he descended from Judah, or Levi, or even Ephraim makes ZERO difference to Islamic doctrine. On the other hand, it is IMPERATIVE for xtians to prove he descends from David, and as we’ve seen, they’re clutching at straws like drowning men.
LikeLiked by 1 person
“And thinking you are smart IF THERE IS NO LINEAGE OF MARY IN THE GOSPELS THEN YOU PRETTY MUCH DESTROYED SHABIR AND YOUR QURAN BECAUSE THAT MEANS YOU HAVE NO PROOF THAT SHE IS FROM THE TRIBE OF LEVI?”
Boy, you don’t need to excessively use Caps.
DR. SHABIR SAID MARY WAS LEVITE BECAUSE LUKE SAYS SHE WAS ELIZABETH’S COUSIN. GET IT? WHICH MEANS BASICALLY YOU CAN’T PROVE JESUS WAS THE SON OF DAVID, NOR DO YOU HAVE THE GENEALOGY OF MARY, WHICH MEANS YOU JUST BURIED YOUR RELIGION SIX FEET UNDER.
LikeLike
Bro, I do need to put this in caps in order to cure you of your illiteracy. Now let’s see what happens to Ally’s appeal to Luke 1:36 to bail out your illiterate profit:
Now Ally may try to counter this fact by appealing to Luke 1:36 which identifies Elizabeth as Mary’s kinswoman or relative:
“Listen, your cousin Elizabeth has also conceived a son in her old age. And this is the sixth month with her who was declared barren.”
Ally may argue that, since Elizabeth is said to be a descendant of Aaron (cf. Luke 1:5), Mary must have also been from the household of Aaron.
There are two main problems with his argument. First, Luke goes out of his way to affirm Jesus’ Davidic descent,
“In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin’s name was Mary. The angel came to her and said, ‘Greetings, you who are highly favored. The Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women.’ When she saw him, she was troubled by his words, and considered in her mind what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, ‘Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. Listen, you will conceive in your womb and bear a Son and shall call His name JESUS. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest. And the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David, and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever. And of His kingdom there will be no end.’” Luke 1:26-33
“Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being, as was supposed, the son of Joseph, who was the son of Heli, who was the son of Matthat, who was the son of Levi, who was the son of Melchi, who was the son of Jannai, who was the son of Joseph, who was the son of Mattathias, who was the son of Amos, who was the son of Nahum, who was the son of Esli, who was the son of Naggai, who was the son of Maath, who was the son of Mattathias, who was the son of Semein, who was the son of Josech, who was the son of Joda, who was the son of Joanan, who was the son of Rhesa, who was the son of Zerubbabel, who was the son of Shealtiel, who was the son of Neri, who was the son of Melchi, who was the son of Addi, who was the son of Cosam, who was the son of Elmadam, who was the son of Er, who was the son of Joshua, who was the son of Eliezer, who was the son of Jorim, who was the son of Matthat, who was the son of Levi, who was the son of Simeon, who was the son of Judah, who was the son of Joseph, who was the son of Jonan, who was the son of Eliakim, who was the son of Melea, who was the son of Menna, who was the son of Mattatha, who was the son of Nathan, who was the son of David, who was the son of Jesse, who was the son of Obed, who was the son of Boaz, who was the son of Salmon, who was the son of Nahshon, who was the son of Amminadab, who was the son of Ram, who was the son of Hezron, who was the son of Perez, who was the son of Judah,” Luke 3:23-33
“Brothers, I may speak confidently to you concerning the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. But being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of his seed according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,” Acts 2:29-30
“When He had removed him, He raised up David to be their king, of whom He testified, saying, ‘I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will fulfill My entire will.’ From this man’s descendants God has raised a Savior for Israel, Jesus, according to His promise.” Acts 13:22-23
As do the rest of the inspired NT writers (cf. Matthew 1:1; Mark 10:47-48; Romans 1:3; 2 Timothy 2:8; Hebrews 7:14; Revelation 5:5; 22:16).
Secondly, the only thing that Luke 1:36 would prove is that Elizabeth had Judean blood in her, not that Mary was of the stock of Aaron. After all, the Holy Bible clearly teaches that Levitical priests were allowed to marry women from any of the twelve tribes of Israel:
“He shall take a wife in her virginity. A widow, or a divorced woman, or a defiled woman, or a prostitute, these he shall not marry. But he shall take for a wife a virgin of HIS OWN PEOPLE,” Leviticus 21:13-14
The prophet Ezekiel, in his vision of a restored priesthood and temple, further clarifies this point:
“But the Levites who have gone far from Me when Israel went astray, who went astray away from Me after their idols, they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity. Yet they shall be ministers in My sanctuary, having charge at the gates of the house and ministering to the house. They shall slay the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister to them… Nor shall they take for their wives a widow, nor her who has been put away. But they shall take maidens of the seed of THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL, or a widow who had a priest before.” Ezekiel 44:10-11, 22
The Holy Bible also provides an example of a priest who had married a woman from Judea, and who was actually a descendant of king David:
“So when Athaliah the mother of Ahaziah saw that her son was dead, she rose up and mounted a campaign to destroy all the royal offspring of the house of Judah. But Jehoshabeath, the daughter of the king, took Joash the son of Ahaziah and stole him away from the king’s sons who were going to be put to death, and she placed him and his nurse in a bed chamber. So Jehoshabeath, the daughter of King Jehoram and wife of Jehoiada the priest (since she was a sister of Ahaziah), hid Joash from Athaliah. And she did not put the royal child to death.” 2 Chronicles 22:10-11
What the foregoing shows is that it is more reasonable to assume that Elizabeth was from the line of David from her mother’s side, which would account for her being related to Mary.
As such, Luke 1:36 does very little to establish that Mary was from the line of Aaron, especially when the Biblical data points in the direction of her being a descendant of king David.
Now what was that about Luke and your fellow stone smoocher Ally?
LikeLike
“Luke goes out of his way to affirm Jesus’ Davidic descent”
The point is if we trace Jesus through his mother, which you agreed was appropriate, he would not be Davidic. Luke mentions the genealogy of Joseph, not Mary.
“Secondly, the only thing that Luke 1:36 would prove is that Elizabeth had Judean blood in her, not that Mary was of the stock of Aaron. After all, the Holy Bible clearly teaches that Levitical priests were allowed to marry women from any of the twelve tribes of Israel”
“What the foregoing shows is that it is more reasonable to assume that Elizabeth was from the line of David from her mother’s side, which would account for her being related to Mary.”
You really need to stop digging your own grave:
Luke 1:5 “In the days of King Herod of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly order of Abijah. HIS WIFE WAS A DESCENDANT OF AARON, and her name was Elizabeth.”
You wasted your time bringing quotes from the OT and NT which had nothing to do with the subject, then made non-sequitur arguments.
“As such, Luke 1:36 does very little to establish that Mary was from the line of Aaron, especially when the Biblical data points in the direction of her being a descendant of king David.”
The fact of the matter is, with the absence of Mary’s genealogy in your bible, the Lucan passage makes it more likely she was Levite. Thus if we trace Jesus’ lineage through her, which makes more sense, and which you agreed was appropriate, he would be a Levite, not Davidic.
“Rather, We dash the truth upon falsehood, and it destroys it, and thereupon it departs. And for you is destruction from that which you describe.” Quran 21:18
Being a “stone smoocher” is better than eating the flesh and blood of Jesus.
LikeLike
paulus man, you are an apologist man, your job is to reconcile the problems in the bible and create a new account which christianity never saw. why do you not do the same for the quran?
quote :
“In the FOOTSTEPS of these [messengers] We sent forth Jesus son of Mary, who corroborated the Torah already present. And We gave him the Gospel in which there is guidance and light.”
end quote
moses is not the uncle of jesus paulus
quote :
So Jesus is said to follow Moses after a period of multiple Messengers and religious people within Israel, hardly a time of the same period that his mother would supposedly be from the time of Moses and his brother Aaron .
quote :
One could counter that the verses examined mention only Aaron being the sister of Mary so perhaps Muḥammad did not know Aaron had a brother called Moses. This can be answered by reading the Qur’an where Moses and Aaron are clearly depicted as brothers. The question posed is thus: Did Muḥammad and/or the Qur’an really understand Moses to be Jesus uncle? Were Jesus and Moses separated by only a single generation? The Qur’an mentions that Jesus and Moses both reached maturity and adulthood. Consequently, applying the confused genealogy of the critics would have the Qur’anic Jesus and Moses both alive at the same time. Surprising though it may seem, as far as we are aware, none of earlier scholars delved any further into their proposed genealogies other than to suggest that Muḥammad thought Jesus son of Mary was the brother of Aaron and Moses. Are there any statements present in the Qur’an which suggest that Jesus and Moses lived at the same time? No. In fact, Moses and his brother Aaron are placed in an ancient Egyptian setting during the time of the Pharaoh, far removed in place and time from first century Palestine.
now lets look at jesus’ empty tomb, alleged crucifixion and resurrection
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/2017/08/responding-to-the-minimal-facts-argument-for-the-resurrection-2-habermas-jesus/
williams lane craigs minimal facts are receiving a wrecking job paulus and you are here writing comments?
what are you doing paulus? your god is receiving a WRECKING job.
LikeLike
Did you know that Shabir Ally argues that Islam depicts Jesus as a priestly Messiah from the line of Aaron? Did you know that this too is a gross distortion of the fact since the Islamic sources confirm that Jesus returns physically to the earth to rule and judge righteously, thereby making him a Davidic Messiah? Don’t believe me? Then read the following post: https://answeringislamblog.wordpress.com/2017/08/25/what-type-of-messiah-does-the-quran-say-jesus-happens-to-be-pt-3/
LikeLike
your god will not return , he made a false prophecy.
LikeLike
According to the uneducated, unemployed, loser polemicist Shamoun, the Quran’s calling Mary the sister of Aaron is an error. According to Angelika Neuwirth who just happens to be one of the leading contemporary academic scholars of the Quran:
The name āl ʿImrān was long considered to reflect a typology that connects Mary with Miriam, the sister of Moses and Aaron, known from Genesis (cf Q 19:38) Mourad, “Mary,” has however, convincingly argued that the connection is not to Miriam but rather to Aaron, the founding figure of Israelite priesthood Indeed, a number of liturgical texts preserved in the eastern Church tradition, present Mary as
belonging to the Aaronid lineage (these texts will be made available as part of the research project “Corpus Coranicum: textual Documentation and Commentary on the Qurʾan”) This particular relation is reflected in the Qurʾan; accordingly, Mary’s father, in Christian tradition Joachim, can be referred to as Amram, her mother, in Christian tradition st Anne, as “the wife of Amram” (imraʾat ʿImrān, Q 3:5), and her entire family as “the House of Amram,” i e , āl ʿImrān… Tottoli, “ʿImrān,” 509, regards the inclusion of Mary and Jesus among the family of ʿImrān as a confusion that arose from “a Christian tendency to utilize earlier biblical figures as ‘types’ for later ones ” His erroneous verdict is due to a reading of the Qurʾan that ignores the fact that the Qurʾanic text presupposes a plethora of earlier exegetical traditions that make an immediate comparison to the biblical counterparts extremely problematic…(p.507, The Quran in context).
LikeLiked by 1 person
Here, also, is the first part of a series of responses I plan on doing in refutation of Shabir Ally’s bad polemics and misinformation. In this rebuttal I deal with his assertion that the Quran depicts Jesus as a priestly Messiah from the lineage of Aaron, and his denial that the Quran confuses Jesus’ mother with Moses’ sister: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXzlbIrWJfQ
LikeLike