AMAZING LECTURE By Rabbi Yehoshua Zitron:
Christianity, christmas, christmas tree is 100% idol worshipping (Avoda Zarah)
2017 ›
Categories: Christianity
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Blogging Theology 
What do the rabbis say about Islam?
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You obviously do not know anything about Judaism, the mainstream orthodox position of the rabbis maintain that Islam is NOT idol worship. I will elaborate more about this in the future.
As for appealing to this “rabbi” Asher Meza, as far as I can research about him, he is not a true jewish rabbi. He was one time xtian minister anyone can go around and claim to be a rabbi but can he provide legitimacy from where he got his rabbinic ordination (smicha)?
As far as I can tell he is a fake.
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I can find you literally thousands if not millions, wait no Over a billion people who think the earth is flat. It does not make it true…
Just because you find one fraud to try and back up your nonsense only serves to expose you for the desperate creature that you are. So please keep it up 😉
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I actually know quite a bit about Judaism. Rabbi Asher is a good source of information. However, I do look at others. I know that there is information about him online saying he’s not a true rabbi but I don’t think that they give any convincing evidence. I’ve never heard that he’s a former Christian minister.
At the beginning of the video he says that there is no absolute conclusion in Judaism regarding Islam and he’s just giving his opinion. He does cite a lot of sources however. You should watch the video and listen to his arguments rather than say he has no credentials.
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Okay, on his website he says where he was ordained.
http://bejewish.org/index.php/about-us
It says: “Rabbi Asher Meza received Rabbinical ordination at Yeshivat Nachlei Emunah under Rabbi Yitzchok Kolakowski.”
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As I said, I will elaborate more on this later. Now I ask you to provide evidence for this “slimcha” of Asher Meza aka Jorge, I read that people asked Kolakowski what it was and it turns out he said he doesn’t give smicha.
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I have no interest in investigating rabbinical ordinations. He gives opinions, defends them with logic and backs them up with Jewish sources. I think you should respond to his arguments rather than attack credentials.
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It seems that you have thoroughly refuted all of his points. Congrats and Merry Christmas.
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Thanks, have a nice holidays..
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Allan, one guy is not representative of all rabbis. I think you will,however, agree that the view of Christianity amongst the majority of rabbis labels Christianity idolatry, yes or no?
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Idolatry for Jews? Yes. Idolatry for non-Jews? It is debated as is Islam. As a Christian obviously, Judaism or Rabbis are not an authority for me. Scripture and Tradition are my authorities.
Regardless, here is what Rabbi Asher says about Christianity for non-Jews.
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Appealing to Meza Asher again?
He said he love christians and mormons more than the orthodox rabbis ..not only a fake he is also a joke..
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@Allan Ruhl . You wrote “As a Christian obviously, Judaism or Rabbis are not an authority for me”
But Jesus defers with you. He actually wants to you to follow Rabbis (The teachers of the law and the Pharisees) in everything they teach but not in everything do.
Matthew 23 1-3: Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
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There is a large difference between rabbis in the time of Jesus and modern rabbis.
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The rabbis are following their rabbi Moshe peace be upon him. You are following church fathers??
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It might be. But Jesus didn’t make that distinction, Why do you? Why not follow what Jesus commanded you to do. Why insert your own meaning to commandments of Jesus. Why not be faithful to Jesus?
BTW Which Rabbi of Jesus time approve “worship of Jesus”? or Salvation by belief in his death/resurrection of Jesus? Name one. And if you can’t name one and surely you can’t name any then accept that your faith today and throughout history has been a rebellion against teaching of Jesus.
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Shouldn’t you accept the Rabbis then since Muslims revere him as a prophet. You need to follow what the rabbis say then! Also, we don’t have the writings of those rabbis so we can’t search through them.
Would Jesus have endorsed modern reform rabbis who promote sodomy? No way. He would also have condemned the Talmud which is preached by all modern rabbis. Christianity came before Rabbinic Judaism.
The rabbis were teaching that the OT was true and therefore instructed His followers to believe that. He didn’t want us following their actions as the verse says because they would eventually form an apostate religion called Rabbinic Judaism.
I can name one rabbi who indicated that his death of Christ would be efficacious. Go read Mark 10:45. If you are truly a follower of Christ, you will accept this teaching.
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“The rabbis were teaching that the OT was true and therefore instructed His followers to believe that. He didn’t want us following their actions as the verse says because they would eventually form an apostate religion called Rabbinic Judaism.
I can name one rabbi who indicated that his death of Christ would be efficacious. Go read Mark 10:45. If you are truly a follower of Christ, you will accept this teaching.”
i am confused with your reply
the rabbis in jesus’ time would have been following the oral torah which they think they have received all the way from the time of moses.
if jesus is telling the people to listen to them , then he is telling the people to listen to them because they have received oral torah all the way from the time of moses and they sit on moses’ seat
it is moses who seems to be the criterion here , not jesus.
the oral torah is telling one how to do the things in the torah and jesus would be dependant on the how in his time.
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There is not one instance in the NT that shows the existence of an Oral Torah. That comes post temple destruction and especially after the Barcochba revolt.
Yes, traditions were developing but there was no concept of an Oral Torah. Josephus mentions traditions but never mentions an Oral Torah received at Sinai in tandem with the written Torah.
If you read Matthew 15, you will read where Jesus engages some of these unbiblical traditions. They were traditions of the elders. Not Oral Law from Sinai.
Also, if you look at the book of Joshua in Chapter 1, verse 8, it is clear that Israel’s covenant is written only. The Oral Law is an absolute myth.
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i hope you take part in this discussion
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“If you read Matthew 15, you will read where Jesus engages some of these unbiblical traditions. They were traditions of the elders. Not Oral Law from Sinai.”
any oral interpretation which gave understanding of the written text, “the pharisees must be obeyed…”
the pharisees are your bosses here, not jesus.
notice how you try to divert and ignore the fact that when the pharisee gives his OPINION , it must be accepted because they sit on moses’ SEAT
in judaism what would it mean to SIT ON MOSES’ seat?
it obviously means a high status with regards to how to follow the written law.
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“Also, if you look at the book of Joshua in Chapter 1, verse 8, it is clear that Israel’s covenant is written only.”
your gods words were ORAL only. his interpretations were passed around mouth to mouth. there were 26 books in his time. you people show your shameful double standards
yesu is one oral talked among his pharaisic interpreters who also passing around opinion on how to do the written instructions
yesu is one unknown among those who SIT in moses’ seat
your 26 OPINIONS did not even exist in his time.
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“If you read Matthew 15, you will read where Jesus engages some of these unbiblical traditions. They were traditions of the elders. Not Oral Law from Sinai.”
quote :
20 These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.”
he thinks that keeping your hands dirty is not a problem and washing them is a made up tradition. if they did not do ritual washing back then, they would never have washed.
tradition is not same as OPINION
The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; therefore, do whatever they teach you and follow it
jesus thinks their opinion should be followed.
interpretation obviously would have divine support. whatever tools they used to give interpretation, it clearly was to be obeyed .
dont conflate TRADITION for INTERPRETATION
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“The Oral Law is an absolute myth”
your god clearly told you to listen to the interpretations of the pharisees
quote:
The next three levels have to do with judicial authority — entrusted to Moses and the 70 elders (judges) which over time came to be known as the Sanhedrin. The authority to pass judicial rulings is discussed in Sh’mot / Exodus 18 and D’varim / Deuteronomy 17. The three categories dealing with judicial authority are:
The authority to make decisions using analytical methods when there is a question as to what the law is, when it has not been previously decided.
The laws the prophets and sages declared as a fence around the Torah.
Laws initiated based on either established practices of the people, or established legal institutions.
When Moses consulted G-d on issues around the oral mitzvot it had to do with judicial decisions in case of doubt (of how to apply the mitzvot in a given situation). Moses asks G-d on four occasions in the Torah: Vayikra / Lev. 24:10 – 23, Bamidbar / Num. 9:1 – 14, Bamidbar / Numbers 15:32 – 36, and Bamidbar / Numbers 27:1 – 11.
http://messiahtruth.yuku.com/reply/73593/Question-regarding-the-Oral-Torah
you have no escape . you have chosen church pastor to interpret written law.
you have sinned in this.
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Allan, have a listen to rabbi Singer: Are Christianity and Islam idolatry?
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Okay what do you seek to achieve through posting this lecture?
There are Rabbis who believe Christianity is Idolatry,
A Christian on here has said that Rabbinic Judaism is an apostate religion,
and elsewhere on the blog Muhammad has been delcared a false Prophet and has just about received every insult possible.
I think that such rhetoric only further divides people and causes the kind of sentiment above to germinate. Considering how much of this already exists in the real world do we really need to be permeating it here aswell?
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Hi Patrice,
Thank you for your advice, but I personally feel the need to disseminate rabbinic teaching on the error the christians have committed by practicing a form of idolatry. I have no ill intention I sincerely want those misguided soul to be aware the danger of committing idolatry: the most egregious sin in the sight of God.
Why do I have to bring the rabbis teaching?.. they are the people who really knew the TaNaKH, and the christians too concede that the Old Testament is their authority. I can go on all day writing Islamic teaching quoting from Islamic sources to I dont think it matters to christians. So through posting this lecture I seek to stimulate a good and respectful discussion and those who disagree are free to defend their position, is it not the very purpose of this blog?
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Hi Eric bin Kasam
100% idolatry please how so?
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You worship Jesus thats how..
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lol it’s just that simple!
Don’t you get it!
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Practically speaking, however, the vast majority of the poskim agree that Christianity is considered avodah zarah and a Jew is forbidden to enter a church. The following reasons are offered:
Regarding Islam, however, most poskim follow the opinion of the Rambam that it is not considered avodah zarah.
and he repeats the charge at Hilchōt Ma’achalōt Assŭrōt 4:4 (para. 7 in some editions).
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Hi
This rabbi doesnt have a good handle on this subject and there is a lot of waffling.
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If you want to see idol worship go and do the Hajj.
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Nope, done the hajj. There our hearts went to the One true God, not to a Nordic looking man with long brunette hair.
Idolatry is in the hearts.
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If you think Allah is the “One true God” then I’m afraid you’re sadly mistaken.
You Muslims do not know God. Sorry, but you’re religion is pure carnality, emptiness and spiritually dead. Has nothing to do with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Nothing whatsoever.
And the hajj is pure idolatry, plain and simple. Kissing a black stone?, cmon, it doesn’t get more idol worshipy than that.
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Ritual are just physical exercises . It is the hearts which matters we do not worship fallible human being who walked on earth . We worships the creator of heaven and earth.
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Genesis 27:26 Then his father Isaac said to him, “Come here, my son, and kiss me.”
Genesis 29:11 Then Jacob kissed Rachel and began to weep aloud.
Genesis 31:28 You didn’t even let me kiss my grandchildren and my daughters goodbye. You have done a foolish thing.
Luke 15:20 So he got up and went to his father. “But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.
Replace “kiss” with “worship” in these and hundreds of other biblical verse. Now would you?
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Eric
You do not worship the true God. I understand you Muslims think you do, but the truth is you don’t.
Who is allah? It is clearly not the same entity as the God of the bible.
Oh and the hajj is jam packed full of idolatry and ritual practices. The whole thing is an abomination.
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When we pray and perform rituals we dont have a mental picture of an earthly human being in our heart and mind. We think of unseen Almighty God OF Abraham , Moses, Jesus and Muhammad peace be upon them all.
While you when praying can not get rid of this long hair nordic fella whose pictures and statues are all over churches and christian household around the world in your heart and mind.
That’s idolatry.
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RationalMuslim
There’s a huge difference between expressing emotion to a loved one to kissing and bowing to an inanimate object you imbecile.
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ZS: Where did u get the idea that Muslims “bow down” to Hajr Al Aswad?
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@Zelyts Suoiruf,
Do you think it was idolatry when the Israelites faced the temple in Jerusalem?
“I will bow towards your holy temple…” Psalms 138:2.
Do you think it was idolatrous when Jacob poured oil on the stone he had been sleeping on when he saw the vision of the ladder on? He then built a house of worship called Bethel. See Genesis 28.
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Good point as I said, idolatry *is* in the heart..
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Zelyts,
Your accusations are baseless and deceitful as attested to by the great twelfth century Jewish theologian, Musa Ben Maimonides who wrote:
“Moslems are definitely not idolaters. All traces of idolatry have been uprooted from their ranks and they are genuine and pure monotheists. …we must not…accuse them of idolatry. After all, our Holy Scriptures warned us against lying talk and deceitful speech. The fact is that long ago the Moslems (referring to Pre-Islamic Arabs) were idolaters and practiced pagan worship. But what of it? Today when they worship at their Mosques and sacred shrines, their hearts are really directed to the one true God in heaven.” brackets added.
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So whats the difference between kissing a cross and kissing the black stone which the prophet Muhammad did do.
The thousands that want to touch the stupid peice of rock on their visit to the place where only Muslims can go.
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Good one brother, as long as christians can not get rid of this Jefrey Hunter’s “jesus”
whose pictures hanging on the wall around the world while they pray, it is idolatry to the core.
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DC,
It is in remembrance of the historical and religious significance that these highly symbolic objects are close to the heart of every Muslim. While not considered proper form or practice, those who choose to touch or kiss the Ka’abah or the black stone, do so out of love and reverence for the Prophet Muhammad and everything good for which both he and Islam stand for. They may also do so in remembrance and out of an overwhelming feeling of closeness and love for Abraham and Ishmael. Muslims who make the pilgrimage to Mecca do so only to glorify and worship God, and absolutely not to worship any object, man, or semi-divinity.
The difference is that Muslims don’t believe that their salvation hinges upon an inanimate object (i.e. the cross) or any event (i.e. crucifixion) which occurred in relation to that inanimate object.
Please be respectful, notice that I did not refer to your cross disrespectfully while you refer to the Hujjr al-Aswad with disrespect saying its “stupid”. I understand if you don’t agree but you don’t have to insult other peoples religious symbols or images.
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Numbers 21:9
So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.
can you tell me which islamic text say to ask the black stone or any metallic item for a cure?
moses remember is the judge and criterion in your religion. from him came the oral torah which tells you christians HOW to do things.
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Hi Heathcloff
As far as I am concerned the rabbi is missing out some vital information.
It was the Jews that worshipping Tammuz…in Ezekiel.
It was the Kews that were worshipping The Queen of heaven…in Jeremiah.
As for the serpent on the pole…that was Jewish as well
Yet Christians are being accused of Idolatry
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“As for the serpent on the pole…that was Jewish as well”
yeah, and then it gets demolished
2Kings 18:4
He removed the high places and broke the sacred pillars, cut down the wooden image and broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made; for until those days the children of Israel burned incense to it, and called it Nehushtan.
interesting .
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So what does thst have to do with Christianity?
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The Jews demolished their Idols whereas the Christians maintained and worshipped theirs.
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Hi Ibn Issam
Are you saying that Israel never got involved in idolatry after the destroying the serpent and the pole?
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DC,
I am saying that whenever Idolatry arose in their ranks, they eventually rejected it and returned to the worship of One God. However, one could make a case that the “worship” of the modern state of Israel is a form of idolatry which both Jews, and many Christians as well, have adopted. Some Jews and Christians have even pointed this out.
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@Allan: you wrote “Shouldn’t you accept the Rabbis then since Muslims revere him as a prophet.”
You surely know that while Muslims accept Jesus a prophet, they don’t accept current Gospels as 100% word of God.
But you accept and insist that current Gospels are 100% word of God. So the question for you again is why wouldn’t you follow Jesus? Why have you abandoned Jesus? Why is words [that you accept are from him] have no meaning for you?
Actually if you think about it, this verse alone undermines the entire super structure of Christianity. Jesus was not a Christian and didn’t teach or follow any of the fundamentals of your faith. Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi and wanted his followers to follow Jewish law in the right way and to the extent that they had to exceed in righteous compared to the Jews of the time.
Read sermon on the mount.
This entire mambo jumbo of Christianity is invention of later church councils, having no co-relation with religion of Jesus.
BTW while ordinary Christians don;t know, but serious scholars like Bultmann and others agree that teaching of Jesus in “flesh” is ir-relevant now!
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So in essence you have to choose between religion of Jesus and Religion about Jesus . You can’t have it both.
and to be able to follow religion of Jesus PBUH, you need to come to Muhammed PBUH, as here in no other way to be truly monotheist. and Mohammed is one, the spirit of truth, who Jesus foretold will come and whose teaching will be with mankind until the end.
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The religion of Jesus was the religion of the OT. That religion doesn’t exist anywhere in the world today. What is called “Judaism” is not the religion of the OT and Islam doesn’t even believe in the OT we have today(or existed at the time of Jesus) so they aren’t that religion.
Jesus Christ taught all of the fundamentals that I believe in. Of course Jesus was not a Christian because a Christian is a follower of Christ.
I accept every word that we have in the four Gospels. I’ve been studying the Bible for 20 years. I’m pretty familiar with what it says.
You obviously don’t know anything about ecumenical councils or why they were called. Also, these councils quote from the NT extensively. They quote from Christ himself, read them.
I’m well aware of what Bultmann says and frankly I don’t care. He’s a heretic and modernist. He’s not a saint, a Pope or an authority of Scripture from the Church.
So I need to go to Muhammad to follow the religion of Jesus? Well, Jesus accepted the authority of the OT whereas Islam denies it. Therefore following Muhammad doesn’t put you in the “religion of Jesus”.
So Muhammads coming was foretold by Jesus? Really? Does your buddy Bultmann agree with you on that? The beautiful thing about being a Christian is that I can be completely consistent with my position. I don’t need these fancy theories from non-supernaturalist scholarship to gain a point here or there. I believe in both testaments of the Bible and the Church that Christ started. You deny all three of these things and are therefore not following Jesus Christ.
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@Allan: you wrote” I accept every word that we have in the four Gospels.”
Yet you refuse to follow him! He asked you to obey those who sit in Moses seat. Yet you obey those who don’t sit in Moses seat. Also consider these
*Jesus only worshiped God the father alone. While you worship God the father , the Son and the Holy Ghost? Meaning your God is different that God of Jesus. So how can you be follower of Jesus?
That is even if somehow one can prove “divinity” of Son and Holy Ghost. If they were worthy of worship, Jesus would have surely worshiped them. and since Jesus didn’t worship any of those two persons, that means they weren’t worthy of worship. Since you insist on worshiping those two “persons” no matter Jesus or any of the OT prophets worshiped them, that means those who do are nothing but idolaters.
You wrote “Jesus accepted the authority of the OT whereas Islam denies it”
Jesus accepted message of OT, He never said anything about in-errancy of OT. So he didn’t give any “authority” to books of OT present at that time. Muhammad pbuh too accepted message of OT prophets and Jesus without giving any authority to the books attributed as OT/ NT. It was nuanced for Jesus so was the case with Muhammad, Peace Upon the Both.
You say you have been reading about Bible for 20 years. So have I. The more I read the more I find evidence that Christians have turned their back on Jesus, The above are just two examples of such behavior that i mentioned above.. But there are dozens.
You wrote “You deny all three of these things and are therefore not following Jesus Christ.” I already gave you two examples
Actually no Allan. Muslims accept everything that Jesus came to preach and practice. Gospels even in current form is actually teaching of Islam not that of Christianity. You only get “Christianity” in there when you start cherry picking verses out of context and not look at “actions” and “words “of Jesus together. There are just few “very few” verses , in fact, in Gospels that go against Islam in there apparent meaning. But when you look at them seriously and apply historical and textual criticism, they are actually not against Islamic teachings at all.
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@Allan . you wrote”The religion of Jesus was the religion of the OT. That religion doesn’t exist anywhere in the world today.
That is precisely the point of Islam. Since the religion that Jesus practiced ceased to exist, so God almighty in his infinite mercy sent his last messenger, Muhammed, to revive that religion.
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Yeah so instead they decided to completely make a new one up…
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This is the point. I have talked to many learned Christians about why they don’t follow religion of Jesus and their answer ultimately (after squirming for some time) always is that it is non existent. So “walah” you go and create one? Although the correct answer is right in the open. How sad.
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Sorry if I go out on a limb here but why do we care what Jews think about christianity or Islam for that matter?Why on earth, br Eric, would you wan’t to call prophet Musa pbuh rabbi moshe? And why would you say that the Jews are experts on the tanakh? In a sense they are but in modern judaism the talmud is far more important.
I’m no expert in judaism but as far as I know orthodox jews seem to follow the talmud far more than they follow the OT. By using the talmud as criterion for interpreting the OT they reach quite outlandish interpretations. Moreover, there are some disturbing things in the talmud itself.
The ironic thing is that Jewish exegesis which was used to reach odd conclusions has been hijacked by christians as a means to find the trinity in the OT etc. Falsehood has given birth to falsehood. Let them grovel in the the dirt of falsehood by themselves. I for one have no desire to join them.
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Someone who says Islam is idolatry BUT Christianity is not idolatry is obviously an American Zionist. No serious person could make such a statement. He could have said both are idolatry and we could discuss. But there is nothing to discuss with a person that says something that openly opposes honest reality like this scum.
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jews and muslims and moses and jesus worshiped one God. whom Jesus called the father.
You worship God the father , the Son and the Holy Ghost? Meaning your God is different that God of Jesus, Moses and Jews and Muslims .
That is even if somehow one can prove “divinity” of Son and Holy Ghost. If they were worthy of worship, Jesus would have surely worshiped them. and since Jesus didn’t worship any of those two persons, that means they weren’t worthy of worship. Since you insist on worshiping those two “persons” no matter Jesus or any of the OT prophets worshiped them, that means those who do are nothing but idolaters.
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Hey Rationalmuslim
The Father Son and the Holy Spirit are in the Old Testament it was not something made up by Christians.
Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Psalm 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
Whose Son is this? And what does it mean to put your trust in him?
Trust…(Qal) to seek refuge, flee for protection
to put trust in (God), confide or hope in (God) (figuratively)
Genesis1: 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
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Eric.
Why dont you spend your time correcting the millions of Muslims in your nation that pray for intercession at the graves of their gurus every day? Or are you going to deny that such plagues indonesia?
Your self righteous claim to purity is tiresome.
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Believe me, more and more Indonesian muslims are now more aware on the wrongfulness of such practices against the correct Islamic belief. Thanks to many Islamic circles and thousand of young da’ees who tirelessly give dawah to people all over Indonesia.
Apart from counter missionary initiatives for the past 10 years I too have been involved in setting up Islamic circles in Jakarta primarily to educate muslims the correct worships which are based from the Qur’an and the Sunna of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him.
For your records here your fellow trinitarians, the catholics, who are still plagued by such practices especially during xmass celebration in central java and east nusa-tenggara.
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Paulus,
It’s good know that these acts are not Islamic. In fact, many hadiths are clear about how evil these acts. We know that, and we try our best to do ( Al Amr Bilma’rouf Wa Annahi a’n Almunkar).
Brother Eric wants to point that you are (i.e christians) actually an idol worshippers according to what you believe in, not according to the wrong practices done by christians.
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“Muslims in your nation that pray for intercession at the graves of their gurus every day?”
brother paulus’ question has been addressed in the past
quote:
Robert :
> Muhammad’s dying words are remarkable; they are a curse on Christians and > Jews. Here is the account in Ibn Sa’d’s biography, “Kitab al-Tabaqat
> al-Kabir”, vol 2, p322:
These were not the Prophet’s dying words. These are some of the things he is reported to have said during his last few days. His last reported words reflected his desire to meet his Lord. Prior to these words, “prayer” was on his lips.
> “When the last moment of the prophet was near, he used to draw a sheet over > his face, but when he felt uneasy, he removed it from his face and said > ‘Allah’s damnation on the Jews and Christians who made the graves of their > prophets objects of worship.'”
Why not try to understand? This statement was one of many statements he made, knowing that his time was approaching.
If you would take a minute to think, before you speak, you wold have realized that this phrase was directed to the Muslims, and how they need to react once the Prophet leaves this world, i.e. he died. The Prophet, whom you would like to claim as self-serving, is warning his own ummah from falling into worshipping him, unlike the Jews and Christians, who took to excess, and moved away from the worship of God by worshipping their Prophets. He, even to the point of death, was keen n preserving the tradition of monotheism that all Prophets preached.
Self-serving?
Robert:
> No, the curse was directed at Christians and Jews, though no doubt it > had point for Muslims. And Muhammad’s curse is false: Christians and > Jews do NOT worship the graves of prophets.
Yes, they do. They build monuments around the bodies of past saints. The Catholic Church declares certain places sacred, because a particular saint died there. People invoke saints at these grave- yards. Maybe to you, this is not worship. But to Muslims and our world-view it is clearly worship.
Robert:
>>You are again completely > misinformed – no doubt it is a current Muslim canard – Christians and > Jews do not worship Prophets. No doubt you will cite Jesus as a > Prophet who is worshiped, but he is not worshiped as man, but as God.
And the idol-worshippers bow to stones because they believe they are gods? Does that mean that they are invoking gods?
“These are just names, which ye and your forefathers have made up.”
You can worship Jesus as God, but that makes you guilty of two things:
1. Foolishness for worshipping a man
2. Believing that Jesus said He was God, yet he bowed to God in paryer
Robert:
> Thus there is no idolatry. If Muslims were not wholly ignorant of > Christianity and Judaism they would not believe such canards.
Than the idol-worshipper isn’t guilty of idolatry, because he believes that the stone he actually worships is a god.
Robert:
> If you check out the Wikipedia you will find confirmation of what I > have said about the Koran’s allegation that Christians worship saints.
According to our world-view this is worship. Worship is the practical manifestation of extreme reverance for a particular being. One does not worship something one does not have reverence for. Further, worship, according to the Quran, also is to follow a people who declare certain things forbidden that God has declared allowed, and indulge in things forbidden that God has ordaiend because these very people consider it allowed. One does not do this unless one reverences a particular person so much so, whether from social conditioning or some other reason, that one follows him not matter what. God does not accept claims of belief in his oneness, but practical manifestation of belief in his oneness.
Robert:
> Christians give honour and respect to Saints and ask them to intercede > and pray to God for them; Divine worship is offered only to God and > NEVER to saints.
That is your claim, but that is not our world-view. And again, you missed the point. The idol-worshippers believe that the idols they bow to actually have power over the affairs of the heavens and the earth. This belief has no effect on reality. So you can say the Christians believe that they are worshipping God, but they are not when they indulge in these acts.
Dead saints cannot hear. People pray to Saints, because they believe they have some uncanny ability to hear, even from beyond the graves. They fall into exxageration, which is ultimately how all polytheism starts. This exxageration than turns into worship, and people start erecting monuments, wasting money on gold tombs, instead of social justice and alleviating the misery of the poor. Pope’s begin to wear extravagant clothes, because he has some special status with God. People cry when the Pope comes to town, but the rest of their life, they are neglecting the real obligations of their religion. This is how Satan deceives men.
Robert:
> Pagans, whether they believe their idol is a god or not, are guilty of > idolatry because they accord divine worship to what is not God.
So what… Your argument is predicated on the notion that Christians believe that they are doing something that is worship. The idol worshippers do the same thing. But the reality is, they both, just as Muslims who indulge in these type of activities, are living in delusion.
Robert:
> You seek to replace the concept of worship with the “practical manifestation > of extreme reverence.” There can be no objection to this reverence if the > person is worthy of such reverence. Muslims express extreme reverence for > Muhammad; do you object to that? You must, by your argument; you must find > Muslims guilty of idolatry.
1. Yes, I object to Muslims who pray to Muhammad, asking him to benefit them. Our Prophet (S) hated that his Companions even stand for him when he came. He explicitly warned his followers not to turn his grave into a place of worship.
2. Where did I seek to replace the word worship with ‘extreme reverence for a particular person”? What I stated is that worship is a RESULT of EXTREME reverance for a particular person. It is the PRACTICAL MANIFESTATION of this EXTREME reverance that a person hold’s in his heart for that personality. One does not pray to dead figures unless you believe that person to be HOLY. And when one does such things, one also comes forth with humility to that being. And once that humility is there for another being, than idol-worship is the necessary result. One begins to serve that person, i.e. worship them. One begins to pray to them. Whether you deny it or not, the reality is still present. It is God that is neglected, and the saint is not. And it is God, in whose hands is ALL GOOD.
What is ironical is that the majority of these types of situations, the saints that an ignorant person turns to has no affiliation with the person praying to them. While a person directly experiences the manifestation of God’s mercy in his life everyday, the only relation a person has to a saint is social conditioning. Saint Augustine or Sufi Muinudeen Chisti have not done anything for you and me to deserve that we call upon them to ‘intercede’ with God, as if they can somehow influence the decisions of God to benefit us. It is the result a mere condition that a person does so.
We experience God’s hand everyday in our lives, and by common sense and reason, it is only logical we turn our hands to him in prayer and ASK HIM directly. Nobody has any reason to deny the connection between God and man, while everybody has reason to deny man’s connection to another saint.
Robert:
> As I have said in practical terms, for Christians, a saint is someone > already enjoying the Beatific Vision because of his or her holiness of life > and who is asked TO PRAY FOR ONE. There can be no objection to this: one can > ask anyone to pray for one.
How do you measure the ‘sainthood’ of a person? The only reason one asks a dead saint is because one ASSUMES, i.e. one lives in conjecture. One assumes the dead person can hear, i.e. has access to absolute knowledge. People who pray to Saints, they in reality do not recognize that God’s bounty extends over everyone, even though they experience it everyday in their lives
Robert:
> You say that for Muslims to follow people who declare things forbidden that > God allows is worship. In that case Islam is simply wrong and ought to > choose a word other than “worship”; in the English language and in religious > cultures across the world this is not worship. It’s not a matter of world > view, it’s a matter of conceptual confusion.
The conceptual confusion is really on your side. A person does not choose to follow another being, unless he holds that person holy, i.e. has exterem reverence for him. He begins to live his life in accordance with the dictates of that being he reverences. He begins to STOP THINKING for himself, and start obeying, i.e. worshipping, that ther being.
WORSHIP, once again, is the PRACTICAL MANIFESTATION of an extreme reverence a person has for another being. IT IS PRACTICAL through and through.
Robert:
> Christians are not deluded when they say they do not accord divine honours > to saints: it’s a simple matter of fact that can be readily verified.
They are deluded, just as Muslims are deluded, and followers of other religions are. Even the OT affirms that God is zealous and proud over His RIGHT that he be worshipped. He does not accept that his worship be mixed with false adulation for other beings.
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i advise all muslims to please read the dialogue between brother asim awan and the catholic robert which took place nearly 10 years ago on soc.religion.islam
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Jazakallah for sharing
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Eric.
Orthodox Muslims are the minority in Indonesia, as im sure you are aware. What this effectively means is that the majority of Muslims in your country commit shirk daily. Doesnt that concern you more than Christmas?
And besides, you said above that rituals are just physical exercises- that the heart matters. Why you would admit such and still complain about christmas is slightly bizarre, since christmas is just a ritual.
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The difference is as akhi Abdullah has pointed out those muslims who are still visting grave of saints to seek blessing are against Islam and as the awareness grows they stop doing it as many has abandoned as dawah has reached them . Even those who still do don’t consider the saints as God. On the contrary those who celebrate xmass *do* believe that god *was* born in betlehem and roamed around Palestine 2000 years ago. It is not a mere ritual.
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As a former “Christian”, I agree that pagans co-opted the followers of Yehoshua ( A JEW WHO TAUGHT TORAH) and COMPLETELY corrupted his teachings-which were only reiterations of Torah. Period. End of story. But there was NO reason for you to refer to Yehoshua as a “mamzer”. Instead of sticking to historical fact and Torah, you lose your credibility by resorting to really a very disgusting insult. What is generally known today as “Christianity” is a corrupted degenerated false religion.EVERY religion has people who do this. You should look to your OWN religious history-the Israelites did ALL the same things “Christians” did, and on Purim many Orthodox think it is an obligation to get drunk, and MANY awful behaviors by Orthodox Jews followed from that, and that’s not just history, it happens today. One RABBI in California would get so drunk his Orthodox neighbors had to tie him up because of how he was behaving in the streets. I give only one example, but there are many. We must all seek truth, live truth and teach truth, but there is NO reason to criticize, mock, call names. This is NOT supported by true Judaism. Orthodox Judaism is rife with superstitions (hanging charms around a new born baby to keep “evil spirits” away, for one). Teach the truth in love, and check your own back yard before pointing fingers at others’.
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