Even the New Testament records Jewish hostility towards Paul of Tarsus. If you want to know why Jews feel so much “rage” at Paul this video explains clearly and biblically. Key texts discussed:
Luke 1:6:
Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commands and decrees blamelessly.
and Deuteronomy 30:
“This command I am giving you today is not too difficult for you, and it is not beyond your reach. 12 It is not kept in heaven, so distant that you must ask, ‘Who will go up to heaven and bring it down so we can hear it and obey?’ 13 It is not kept beyond the sea, so far away that you must ask, ‘Who will cross the sea to bring it to us so we can hear it and obey?’ 14 No, the message is very close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart so that you can obey it.
Categories: Bible, Christianity, Judaism
Blogging Theology 
Good lecture by Rabbi Singer. I think it is wise to follow his advice and be as far away as possible from Paul on the day of Judgment.
Interesting comments at the end of his lecture about the attractive appeal of Christian teachings to people of low self esteem (i.e. “I was a worthless sinner and then I found Jesus”). Most Christians do seem to have a low self esteem. However, when Christians who do have an inherent high self esteem realize that the Christian appeal constantly limits their own self esteem, it can lead to disillusionment with Christian teachings which are disconnected from their own higher self regard. This can also lead to a cognitive dissonance, or ultimately a rejection of Christian teachings on the doctrine of Original sin and the sinful nature (or alleged curse) of man.
This appeal of Christian teachings to people of low self esteem is in stark contrast to the reasons given for conversion by people who accept both Judaism and Islam, which both offer attractive teachings which do not hinge upon a person’s own inherent weaknesses as a sinful human being, but rather focus on every human beings simple and innate desire to connect with God on a rational, intellectual, and spiritual level all at once, and this appeals greatly to those people who hold themselves in greater regard for self-worth and have a higher self esteem.
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Well said Ibn Issam.
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Interesting observation. JAK
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This is the reason why i am not a religious person. It breeds a feeling of self righteousness.
“We are the intelligent ones, the rational whereas ‘they’ are emotional and cannot possibly believe what they do and reject our beliefs on a rational basis”
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Ibn Wrote…
“Good lecture by Rabbi Singer. I think it is wise to follow his advice and be as far away as possible from Paul on the day of Judgment.”
A Muslim complimenting a Zionist Jew. I’m impressed there may be help for peace in the middle east. BTW are you a Muslim for Israel?
Funny how Muslims will appeal to Zionist Jews when they attack Christianity. If you want to know why Jews and Muslims feel such rage against Paul is because they have such rage against Christ. As he said “they hated me before they hated you”.
Ibn says…
“Interesting comments at the end of his lecture about the attractive appeal of Christian teachings to people of low self esteem (i.e. “I was a worthless sinner and then I found Jesus”). ”
So Muslims are not worthless sinners before they found Islam? Paul I would be interested in your thoughts on this.
Ibn says…
“This appeal of Christian teachings to people of low self esteem is in stark contrast to the reasons given for conversion by people who accept both Judaism and Islam,”
Ibn are Muslims the most humble people?
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So what did you think of the rabbi’s point about Deuteronomy 30, where God says it is not difficult to obey the law? Is there a Christian answer to this?
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Paul the real question is what do you as a Palestinian supporting Muslim think about Deut 30?
” then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. 4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. 5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors.”…
“he Lord your God will put all these curses on your enemies who hate and persecute you. 8 You will again obey the Lord and follow all his commands I am giving you today. 9 Then the Lord your God will make you most prosperous in all the work of your hands and in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your land. The Lord will again delight in you and make you prosperous, just as he delighted in your ancestors, ”
Hmm so God will gather the Jews again from all the nations. Even if they have been banished to the most distant land…he will bring them back to the LAND that belonged to their ancestors and they will take possession of it.
The Lord will put all the CURSES on their enemies hmmm what are those curses…
” You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.
17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.
18 The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.
19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out.
20 The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him. 21 The Lord will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish. 23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron. 24 The Lord will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed.
25 The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth. 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds and the wild animals, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 The Lord will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind person in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.
30 You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and rape her. You will build a house, but you will not live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit. 31 Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will eat none of it. Your donkey will be forcibly taken from you and will not be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will rescue them. 32 Your sons and daughters will be given to another nation, and you will wear out your eyes watching for them day after day, powerless to lift a hand. 33 A people that you do not know will eat what your land and labor produce, and you will have nothing but cruel oppression all your days. 34 The sights you see will drive you mad. 35 The Lord will afflict your knees and legs with painful boils that cannot be cured, spreading from the soles of your feet to the top of your head.
Hmm sounds like Syria so far, so sounds about right to me. So what do you think sound about right to you too?
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No. The real question is the one raised in the video. What do you make of the rabbis’ compelling exegesis of Deuteronomy 30?
Btw any further off topic comments will be deleted.
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I think the case the video makes is a good one, namely that righteousness is possible for people without the need for a sacrifice from Jesus. It seems that faith and good works work hand in hand. Jesus is purported to have said that the two most important commandments are to love God and your neighbour. For Jesus’ audience loving God and neighbour meant to obey Gods law, the Torah as is demonstrated every time anyone ever asked him how they can be saved.
Far easier said than done however especially living in an increasingly cynical and divided world. Sadly St Paul had abandoned one by over emphasising the other and what that has led to is a false understanding of what freedom truly is. To be free is not to lack obligation or restriction but is rather to be the person one is supposed to be.
Take for example someone who wants to become a musician, they don’t simply pick up an instrument and are able to play it well straight away but rather they have to practice regularly and be trained by an expert in that instrument. Only until then and after many years of training can that person become an expert musician. Think of all the time, money, and discipline that must take to accomplish, such a person would have to restrict themselves by focusing on developing their skills but without that they could never realise their full potential and be a great musician, much in the same how can a person become a saintly person unless they give their time, effort to such a pursuit?
It is certainly not an easy path to take this is why Jesus tells us it the narrow way because few will enter it and why the Qur’an tells us about the need for both prayer and patience in the religious life. If Paul is right it is a wonder why ever bothered revealing a law at all.
Finally i would like to say to ‘Anti Zionest Christian’….Stop writing rubbish and read the rest of the Tanakh you might be surprised how many times God has to had to restore Israel and bring the people back to the land, like i don’t know….the Babylonian exile!!! So please stop…pretty please?
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“I think the case the video makes is a good one, namely that righteousness is possible for people without the need for a sacrifice from Jesus.” Exactly.
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Anti-Zionist Christian:
“So Muslims are not worthless sinners before they found Islam?”
-Of course it is possible that Muslims are sinners before converting to Islam. However, unlike Christianity it does not seem to be the first and foremost reason given for converting.
“Ibn are Muslims the most humble people?”
-I think Humbleness is different than self-esteem, which is also different than ego. Islam teaches us to engage in the constant struggle of controlling the ego and/or Nafs. There are many ways to subdue the ego, and maintaining a humble attitude is one. A humble person may have an inner high self-esteem of one’s own self while keeping the ego in check. Is this possible for Christians as well, yes of course. But I believe Islam provides the best tools to achieve the end goal.
“A Muslim complimenting a Zionist Jew.”
If a Zionist Jew is correct on an issue, then I have no problem agreeing with him and it does not affect my own political opinions about Palestine.
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Patrice
who are “we” and “they”?
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Apparently people who accept Islam and Judaism whereas the poor Christians (they) who have a lack of self esteem and are Christians for purely emotional reasons rather than reason.
Ibn Issam seems to think so. I disagree with this opinion of his of course there are a plethora of works and testimonials of Christian converts who present their new found faith and the reasons for joining it, C.S Lewis and St Augustine come to mind. I suppose they have no reason in them and were simply emotional wrecks with low self esteem who needed a pick me up. I mean why else would they accept Christianity and not say…..Islam or Rabbinic Judaism.
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Thanks for clarifying that
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Patrice,
I value your remarks as you seem to be fair minded and honest in your comments, Thank you. You said that the video makes a good case that “righteousness is possible for people without the need for a sacrifice from Jesus. It seems that faith and good works work hand in hand.” And this is what Islam teaches as well.
In regard to my comment above, my point, and I think Rabbi Singers point as well, is that Christian teachings appeal most especially to people of low self-esteem. Only Christianity teaches that mankind is sinful by nature, which is why it often seems to attract people of lower self-esteem who truly believe they are worthless sinners who have no choice in the matter. This does not necessarily imply that there aren’t any Christians who have high self-esteem, and who accept Christianity for what they believe are rational reasons as well. I recognize that and agree with you. But, as I said in my above comment, for a person of higher self-esteem there must surely be some level of cognitive dissonance, due to the teachings that all mankind is cursed by sin, which in turn is directly related to Paul’s teaching of faith based redemption and freedom from the law.
In regard to self-righteousness, do you think that someone can feel self-righteous because he is not a religious person? Just a non-accusatory rhetorical question to illustrate that self-righteousness is not only limited to religion or religious people.
Thanks again for your comments!
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Thank you for the clarification that not all people who are Christians is because of a deficiency, i.e low self esteem. That was what i was responding to but if that is not what you meant then i apologise for anything i said that was a tad venomous.
However that being said you say that people with a higher self-esteem may not be so inclined toward the doctrine of original sin. I wouldn’t say that a position of self confidence is the right reason to reject such a position as there are plenty of decent arguments from the Bible that would cast doubt on such a belief. However to recognise ones own faults and need for Gods mercy is a virtue of Christianity because in so doing breeds humility and humility leads to repentance, repentance is what will lead us to faith. Trusting in God to sustain and guide us comes from recognising the need that we have for Gods guidence. If the Christian doctrine instills this i am all for it. I agree though that such a belief can also lead to a feeling of self loathing because being human ends up becoming a crime in and of itself.
I also agree that St Paul was wrong to seperate faith and the law and even worse calling it freedom.
Finally you asked whether or not a non-religious person can be proud for that very reason and i would say of course they can be. Pride comes in many forms and i am not so blind as to realise that i can very easily become proud myself. I would have no problem acknowledging that.
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Patrice,
Thanks again for your thoughts. I also agree with you that being able to “recognize one’s own faults and need for Gods mercy is a virtue” which “breeds humility and humility leads to repentance.” Again this is the same in Judaism and Islam, although it is not repentance which leads to faith, but it is rather repentance that is born out of faith.
If a Christian believes that he is a worthless sinner in accordance with doctrine of original sin, and then further believes that he is saved by the blood, accepting Jesus as his savior and being “born again” then of what necessity is it to repent sins committed before or especially thereafter? Therefore, one might ask the same question that Mr. Heathcliff asks in a comment below, “If God can forgive and welcome an imperfect person, then what is the need for Jesus?” This is why there must certainly be at least some level of cognitive dissonance within any person of high OR low self-esteem in regard to an acceptance of Paul’s teachings about sin and righteousness.
I agree with you that people of high self-esteem can be attracted to, and even satisfied with the doctrine of original sin. But are these the people whom the Qur’an addresses saying, “Then do they not reflect…” which indicates that ALL people of intellect have the ability to reflect upon these theological questions. I am just saying that I think that people of high self-esteem, have a greater ability to independently “reflect” upon Paul’s teaching, recognize the incongruities, and find them discomforting. This is because the person with high self-esteem, who feels that they are innately and inherently good, may find it hard to agree with the teaching that he is sinful by nature, as that is in opposition to his own positive self-image. Whereas, though not impossible, this problem may not occur in a person who is currently in a state of lower self-esteem.
“Trusting in God to sustain and guide us comes from recognizing the need that we have for Gods guidance.” ~ This is an Islamic teaching as well.
Yes, pride and self-righteousness are dangerous, and our Prophet Muhammad warned us to control our pride which can lead to arrogance. If two people are willing to admit and acknowledge when their pride leads them into error, and are willing to admit mistakes, as I (like you) am willing to do then this is the basis of a fruitful and productive conversation.
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I think that repentance is both something that comes as a result of faith but it also one of the main ways of faith being given to you. But that begs the question as to what faith exactly means. But i think that might be a different topic for a different thread.
I don’t think that however original sin means that one is a ‘worthless sinner’ but rather is the understanding of the more darker side of our nature, the kind that inspires hatred and violence. The Christian position is that this is not some outside conflict between good and evil but rather a line that is drawn inside of us, it is a part of who we are. Total depravity, i.e. the belief that we are utterly incapable of any good deed and thus cannot be righteous is something else entirely and is the invention of the reformation. There are at least a couple of clear statements from the NT that deny this:
“Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed–not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence–continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling” – Phillipians 2:12
“As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute justified by her actions when she welcomed the messengers and sent them off on another route?…” – James 2:24-25
Salvation by faith alone in Jesus alone relatively speaking is a modern concept. One might say instead that Jesus’ resurrection creates the condition whereby man is twisted by that nature is forgiven and restored, the slate is wiped clean and one can truly start again.
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patrice,
the christian sinned today and believed that his god was murdered because of the sins like
looking lustfully at neighbours wife
so the christian killed his god in his mind and then instantly celebrated the belief that his god rewarded himself with eternal life
so their is killing of god and bringing god back to life and telling oneself that god killed himself and rewarded himself for your lustful thought
you are still guilty and responsible for your lustful thought but you can celebrate that god rewarded himself .
now it seems the christian is stuck between murdering his god and then celebrating his gods life
what sense does this make?
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Rabbi Singer misquoted Luke 1:6 – it does not mean “sinless”.
And the description of Abraham in Genesis 26:5 is the result of his justifying faith in the LORD and His promise to send someone from his own body (Genesis 15:1-6), from his own seed to be the one who would bless all nations (Genesis 12:3; 18:18; 22:18: 26:4 – see Genesis 26:4 and context of 26:5) = this person is the Messiah, in Daniel 9:24-27 and Psalm 2:1-12, also known as the suffering servant of Isaiah 52:13-15 and 53:1-12.
It would be interesting to know and understand how the Rabbi understands Jesus’ teaching in Matthew 5:21-30 and Mark 7:20-23 and Genesis 6:5 and Jeremiah 17:9 and how thoughts and sins of motives, pride, selfishness, self-righteousness relate to the “keeping of the law”.
Patrice’s comment was interesting:
This is the reason why i am not a religious person. It breeds a feeling of self righteousness.
That is the point of the Christian doctrine. If you think you are good and sinless and can keep the law of God perfectly; it means you are blind and corrupt and have such a depth of pride and arrogance(like the Pharisees in Luke 18:9-14 and John 9:39-41), that only the grace of God can overcome.
Deuteronomy 30:11-15 does not mean that the law is easy to keep and obey. It is meant to say that you have no excuse – don’t say “we didn’t know” – “it is not out of reach or beyond the sea or in heaven as a secret”, etc. God has revealed it to you; but you still cannot fully obey it.
11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.
It is in your mouth, because you read it and learned it and know what it says; therefore you are without excuse and God hold’s you responsible.
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The fact Ken is that God declared people to be righteous in his sight under the law and before that.
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“That is the point of the Christian doctrine. If you think you are good and sinless and can keep the law of God perfectly; it means you are blind and corrupt and have such a depth of pride and arrogance(like the Pharisees in Luke 18:9-14 and John 9:39-41), that only the grace of God can overcome.”
when god gave the laws to moses did he say
“you must be an angel and you must be a god or otherwise go to hell”
?
when god said that in his EYES liz and zach kept the law blamelessly then in gods eyes is not the eyes of the law but eyes of god which sees them as keeping the laws perfectly
if god himself is giving that encouragement then who are you?
who are you?
when yhwh says that one can obey his commandments because the heart can love god , then jesus is a redundant thing.
the heart has the power to love god. which implies the heart is not evil and does not need jesus to seek god.
jesus himself said “no one is good (including jesus) but god alone”
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And it is not difficult to obey the law either according to Deuteronomy
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why do i have to cnp this AGAIN AND AGAIN to expose the double standards of christians ?
quote:
And ironically, Rabbi, that is exactly what Christians REALLY believe when they are not trying to convert people, but living their life in a cycle of sin and repentance. How many times have we seen the bumper sticker that reads, “Christians are not Perfect, just Forgiven”?
This is the catch-22 they face. If God can forgive and welcome an imperfect person, then what is the need for Jesus? On the other hand, if they are still sinning even after accepting Jesus (and ALL of them are, by their own admission), then on what basis are they fit for God’s presence, if sinless perfection is the qualifying criteria? Think about this: if it is about “the blood of Jesus” and “Jesus dying for our sins”, then there is no need for repentance or even right-doing, since God does not consider your sin, but Jesus’ supposed perfection in your place.
That is why Hebrews chapters 8-10 exposes the fatal flaw of Christian doctrine and the NT. No reason to even bother with the rest of the arguments. Christianity is self-defeating on its most basic premise.
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quote:
Deuteronomy 30:11-15 does not mean that the law is easy to keep and obey. It is meant to say that you have no excuse – don’t say “we didn’t know” – “it is not out of reach or beyond the sea or in heaven as a secret”, etc. God has revealed it to you; but you still cannot fully obey it.
if it is not “easy to keep…” then by your own damned logic god did not even intend it to be easily kept. like i said, he did not say
1. are you a god?
2. are you an angel?
3. are you perfect?
it is not TOO DIFFICULT
11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you,
HOW caN a “not too difficult…” not be obeyed?
quote:
You can’t help being naughty and god sent the law to help, but it didn’t, meaning you have to die, so he sent his son to die in your place because god couldn’t just send functional laws or change his mind or know what he was doing in the first place
but hold on, to answer this , god said :
today is not too difficult for you
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Why did Noah get drunk after the flood?
Genesis chapters 6-9
Why did God record that?
Why did God record the sins of other prophets, like David’s adultery – 2 Samuel 11 and Solomon’s sins – 1 Kings 11??
Also ask the Rabbi to explain those sins, and Abraham’s lie (half-truth that Sara is his half-sister; but not admitting that Sara is his wife) in Genesis 12:10-20 and Genesis 20 ?
Ask the Rabbi why God allowed the temple to be destroyed in 70 AD, if the Pharisees and chief priests and elders of Israel were correct?
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verse 14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.
God intended Israel to obey the law ie observe it.
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Means they are without excuse and they know the law – they cannot say “we didn’t know” or “it was too mysterious” or “it was out of reach” or “you didn’t tell us clearly enough” ( It is not out of reach in heaven or across the sea, etc. )
So why didn’t David or Solomon fully obey God’s law?
Abraham also lied in Genesis 12 and 20.
What do the Jews and Rabbi Singer think of Abraham and Hagar having sex and having a child, Ishmael?
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Ken you appear to be in denial of the plain meaning of the text:
English Standard Version:
‘But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.’
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You are plucking the verse out from the surrounding context. It means the word/law is in your heart (because you read, understood, know, and memorize and meditate in it) and in your mouth (you memorized it and can say it) “that you may do it” does not imply moral ability to obey without God or without His grace; but it only speaks to the accountability and responsibility of knowing what the law is; and therefore having no excuse when disobeying.
All the history of man-kind shows that man cannot obey God’s law perfectly (motives, thoughts, or obeying with joy in the heart.
Deuteronomy 28:47 shows even obeying the external law was possible, but not with pure motives or joy or holy thoughts. All of chapters 27, 28, 29, 30 and 31 are a unit of context.
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When God says about the Law:
‘But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.’
He obviously means that the Jews can obey the law without difficulty. That’s how the Jews understand it too.
The NIV Study Bible agrees with me: see note to 30:12,14
‘Moses declares that understanding, believing and obeying the covenant were not beyond them’
Your reading of the passage is not exegesis at all, but merely a Christian spin on the words. It is dishonest, and ungodly, being a deliberate perversion of the Word of God.
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Did David and Solomon know and memorize and meditate in the law of God and have wisdom?
Why did they sin?
2 Samuel 11
1 Kings 11
If you are going to use Singer, OT, and Tanakh, then you have to accept all the other passages also – for example, that Noah got drunk (Genesis 9), that Abraham lied (Genesis 12, 20), that having sex with Hagar was a lack of faith and lack of patience in the promise of the LORD to give them a child through Sarah (which eventually was Isaac). (Genesis 16-22) and you have to accept 2 Samuel 11 and Psalm 51:5 and 1 Kings 11 as holy Scripture also. They show the sins of the prophets.
How does the Rabbi explain that Job was a righteous man (Job 1:1), but he was obviously not sinless, as the rest of the book demonstrates, especially chapters 32-42.
“. . . because Job was righteous in his own eyes. But the anger of Elihu . . . burned against Job, because he justified himself before God”. Job 32:1-2
like the Pharisee in Luke 18:9-14
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The NIV Study Bible agrees with me: see note to 30:12,14
‘Moses declares that understanding, believing and obeying the covenant were not beyond them’
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quote:
Why did Noah get drunk after the flood?
Genesis chapters 6-9
Why did God record that?
Why did God record the sins of other prophets, like David’s adultery – 2 Samuel 11 and Solomon’s sins – 1 Kings 11??
Also ask the Rabbi to explain those sins, and Abraham’s lie (half-truth that Sara is his half-sister; but not admitting that Sara is his wife) in Genesis 12:10-20 and Genesis 20 ?
Ask the Rabbi why God allowed the temple to be destroyed in 70 AD, if the Pharisees and chief priests and elders of Israel were correct?
why did god RECORD THIS ?
even if these three men–Noah, Daniel and Job–were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness, declares the Sovereign LORD.
in any DANGER they can through their deeds save themselves .
why did god also record that people REPENTED OF their sins?
why did god say that HEARTS can LOVE GOD ?
why did god say that dave REPENTED ?
why did god allow the temple to be destroyed?
BECAUSE REPENTANCE WITHOUT BLOOD IS GREATER AND SEEKING GOD DIRECTLY
BLOOD = IDOLATRY
jesus = IDOLATRY
DEPENDING ON BLOOD AND jesus BYPASSES GOD
SO GOD DESTROYED IT
LOVE God with ALL your heart ”
it is 100 PERCENT POSSIBLE WITHOUT jesus krist
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Ezekiel 14:14, 20 – means deliver from the physical trials of famine (see Ezekiel 14:12-13 for context) and the attacks of Babylon upon Judah and the temple. (to keep Babylon from physically attacking – the whole book is about this issue, written in 597-593 BC, before the destruction of the temple in 586 BC, as a warning and description of Israel and Judah’s sins), it does not mean “deliver from guilt or hell-fire”
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“Means they are without excuse and they know the law – they cannot say “we didn’t know” or “it was too mysterious” or “it was out of reach” or “you didn’t tell us clearly enough” ( It is not out of reach in heaven or across the sea, etc. )”
BUT HOW COULD THEY KNOW SOMETHING IMPOSSIBLE TO KEEP?
LISTEN TO YOUR BS
HOW COULD THEY BECOME CONNECTED WITHSOMETHING IMPOSSIBLE TO KEEP?
HOW CAN THEY LOVE GOD THROUGH IT IF GOD GAVE IMPOSSIBLE TO KEEP SYSTEM?
QUOTE:
So why didn’t David or Solomon fully obey God’s law?
this is gonna keep you busy
Psalm 44:
Yet you have rejected us and abased us, and have not gone out with our armies. You made us turn back from the foe, and our enemies have gotten spoil. You have made us like sheep for slaughter, and have scattered us among the nations. You have sold your people for a trifle, demanding no high price for them. You have made us the taunt of our neighbors, the derision and scorn of those around us. You have made us a byword among the nations, a laughingstock among the peoples. All day long my disgrace is before me, and shame has covered my face at the words of the taunters and revilers, at the sight of the enemy and the avenger. All this has come upon us, yet we have not forgotten you, or been false to your covenant. Our heart has not turned back, nor have our steps departed from your way, yet you have broken us in the haunt of jackals, and covered us with deep darkness. If we had forgotten the name of our God, or spread out our hands to a strange god, would not God discover this? For he knows the secrets of the heart. Because of you we are being killed all day long, and accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Rouse yourself! Why do you sleep, O Lord? Awake, do not cast us off forever! Why do you hide your face? Why do you forget our affliction and oppression? For we sink down to the dust; our bodies cling to the ground. Rise up, come to our help. Redeem us for the sake of your steadfast love. (Ps 44:9-26)
they are keeping TRUE TO thier god
your jesus just got ELIMINATED
here is an explicit text which says people were aBLE TO OBEY GOD
QUOTE:
Abraham also lied in Genesis 12 and 20.
What do the Jews and Rabbi Singer think of Abraham and Hagar having sex and having a child, Ishmael?
READ THE PSALMS ABOVE. YOUR jesus just got taken out in 6th gear.
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“You are plucking the verse out from the surrounding context. It means the word/law is in your heart (because you read, understood, know, and memorize and meditate in it) and in your mouth (you memorized it and can say it) “that you may do it” does not imply moral ability to obey without God or without His grace;”
“without god”
WITHOUT jesus
ONE CAN obey
without jesus’ SUICIDE , blood and crucifix , the torah says ONE can obey
no jews says that one can OBEY “WITHOUT god”
the whole point is GOD is the one CREATING THE ABILITY TO OBEY
”
but it only speaks to the accountability and responsibility of knowing what the law is; and therefore having no excuse when disobeying.
All the history of man-kind shows that man cannot obey God’s law perfectly (motives, thoughts, or obeying with joy in the heart.”
this is a lie. you are saying accountable to knowing you can’t KEEP an impossible law. you are TRASHING your god.
you are contradicting your god.
”
Deuteronomy 28:47 shows even obeying the external law was possible, but not with pure motives or joy or holy thoughts. All of chapters 27, 28, 29, 30 and 31 are a unit of context.”
now you are dividing the law. god says obeying the external law was possible because it is not “too difficult”
you are a liar for jesus.
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quote:
Ezekiel 14:14, 20 – means deliver from the physical trials of famine (see Ezekiel 14:12-13 for context) and the attacks of Babylon upon Judah and the temple. (to keep Babylon from physically attacking – the whole book is about this issue, written in 597-593 BC, before the destruction of the temple in 586 BC, as a warning and description of Israel and Judah’s sins), it does not mean “deliver from guilt or hell-fire”
quote :
14 Certain elders of Israel came to me and sat down before me. 2 And the word of the Lord came to me: 3 Mortal, these men have taken their idols into their hearts, and placed their iniquity as a stumbling block before them; shall I let myself be consulted by them? 4 Therefore speak to them, and say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Any of those of the house of Israel who take their idols into their hearts and place their iniquity as a stumbling block before them, and yet come to the prophet—I the Lord will answer those who come with the multitude of their idols, 5 in order that I may take hold of the hearts of the house of Israel, all of whom are estranged from me through their idols.
6 Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: Repent and turn away from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations. 7 For any of those of the house of Israel, or of the aliens who reside in Israel, who separate themselves from me, taking their idols into their hearts and placing their iniquity as a stumbling block before them, and yet come to a prophet to inquire of me by him, I the Lord will answer them myself. 8 I will set my face against them; I will make them a sign and a byword and cut them off from the midst of my people; and you shall know that I am the Lord.
9 If a prophet is deceived and speaks a word, I, the Lord, have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. 10 And they shall bear their punishment—the punishment of the inquirer and the punishment of the prophet shall be the same— 11 so that the house of Israel may no longer go astray from me, nor defile themselves any more with all their transgressions. Then they shall be my people, and I will be their God, says the Lord God.
12 The word of the Lord came to me: 13 Mortal, when a land sins against me by acting faithlessly, and I stretch out my hand against it, and break its staff of bread and send famine upon it, and cut off from it human beings and animals,
14 even if Noah, Daniel,[a] and Job, these three, were in it, they would save only their own lives by their righteousness, says the Lord God.
15 If I send wild animals through the land to ravage it, so that it is made desolate, and no one may pass through because of the animals; 16 even if these three men were in it, as I live, says the Lord God, they would save neither sons nor daughters; they alone would be saved, but the land would be desolate. 17 Or if I bring a sword upon that land and say, “Let a sword pass through the land,” and I cut off human beings and animals from it; 18 though these three men were in it, as I live, says the Lord God, they would save neither sons nor daughters, but they alone would be saved. 19 Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my wrath upon it with blood, to cut off humans and animals from it;
20 even if Noah, Daniel,[b] and Job were in it, as I live, says the Lord God, they would save neither son nor daughter; they would save only their own lives by their righteousness.
21 For thus says the Lord God: How much more when I send upon Jerusalem my four deadly acts of judgment, sword, famine, wild animals, and pestilence, to cut off humans and animals from it! 22 Yet, survivors shall be left in it, sons and daughters who will be brought out; they will come out to you. When you see their ways and their deeds, you will be consoled for the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, for all that I have brought upon it. 23 They shall console you, when you see their ways and their deeds; and you shall know that it was not without cause that I did all that I have done in it, says the Lord God.
look whether you call it “hell fire” or whatever you lies just got exposed.
humans SAVED themselves because god created that ability in them.
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your smelly christian and paganistic exegesis just got demolished
quote :
12 The word of the Lord came to me: 13 Mortal, when a land sins against me by acting faithlessly, and I stretch out my hand against it, and break its staff of bread and send famine upon it, and cut off from it human beings and animals,
14 even if Noah, Daniel,[a] and Job, these three, were in it, they would save only their own lives by their righteousness, says the Lord God.
so it doesn’t matter what ever sins these guys did, it was not ENOUGH TO TAKE them out because as your lord said
by their righteousness,
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quote:
If you are going to use Singer, OT, and Tanakh, then you have to accept all the other passages also – for example, that Noah got drunk (Genesis 9), that Abraham lied (Genesis 12, 20), that having sex with Hagar was a lack of faith and lack of patience in the promise of the LORD to give them a child through Sarah (which eventually was Isaac). (Genesis 16-22) and you have to accept 2 Samuel 11 and Psalm 51:5 and 1 Kings 11 as holy Scripture also. They show the sins of the prophets.
TRUMPETING their sins even when your god said
14 Certain elders of Israel came to me and sat down before me. 2 And the word of the Lord came to me: 3 Mortal, these men have taken their idols into their hearts, and placed their iniquity as a stumbling block before them; shall I let myself be consulted by them? 4 Therefore speak to them, and say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Any of those of the house of Israel who take their idols into their hearts and place their iniquity as a stumbling block before them, and yet come to the prophet—I the Lord will answer those who come with the multitude of their idols, 5 in order that I may take hold of the hearts of the house of Israel, all of whom are estranged from me through their idols.
6 Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: Repent and turn away from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations. 7 For any of those of the house of Israel, or of the aliens who reside in Israel, who separate themselves from me, taking their idols into their hearts and placing their iniquity as a stumbling block before them, and yet come to a prophet to inquire of me by him, I the Lord will answer them myself. 8 I will set my face against them; I will make them a sign and a byword and cut them off from the midst of my people; and you shall know that I am the Lord.
9 If a prophet is deceived and speaks a word, I, the Lord, have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. 10 And they shall bear their punishment—the punishment of the inquirer and the punishment of the prophet shall be the same— 11 so that the house of Israel may no longer go astray from me, nor defile themselves any more with all their transgressions. Then they shall be my people, and I will be their God, says the Lord God.
12 The word of the Lord came to me: 13 Mortal, when a land sins against me by acting faithlessly, and I stretch out my hand against it, and break its staff of bread and send famine upon it, and cut off from it human beings and animals,
14 even if Noah, Daniel,[a] and Job, these three, were in it, they would save only their own lives by their righteousness, says the Lord God.
15 If I send wild animals through the land to ravage it, so that it is made desolate, and no one may pass through because of the animals; 16 even if these three men were in it, as I live, says the Lord God, they would save neither sons nor daughters; they alone would be saved, but the land would be desolate. 17 Or if I bring a sword upon that land and say, “Let a sword pass through the land,” and I cut off human beings and animals from it; 18 though these three men were in it, as I live, says the Lord God, they would save neither sons nor daughters, but they alone would be saved. 19 Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my wrath upon it with blood, to cut off humans and animals from it;
20 even if Noah, Daniel,[b] and Job were in it, as I live, says the Lord God, they would save neither son nor daughter; they would save only their own lives by their righteousness.
21 For thus says the Lord God: How much more when I send upon Jerusalem my four deadly acts of judgment, sword, famine, wild animals, and pestilence, to cut off humans and animals from it! 22 Yet, survivors shall be left in it, sons and daughters who will be brought out; they will come out to you. When you see their ways and their deeds, you will be consoled for the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, for all that I have brought upon it. 23 They shall console you, when you see their ways and their deeds; and you shall know that it was not without cause that I did all that I have done in it, says the Lord God.
you can’t believe why god said this about sinners even without need of jesus .
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Muslims make me laugh whenever they use Tovia Singer as a source.
They should ask him whether or not he believes Muhammad was a true prophet or even the “seal of prophethood”.
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That is a different question and is utterly irrelevant
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The Rabbi misquoted Jeremiah 2:13 and 17:13 – The “living water” is not the Torah, but the LORD Himself.
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The NIV Study Bible agrees with me: see note to 30:12,14
‘Moses declares that understanding, believing and obeying the covenant were not beyond them’
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The key point in this video is ( 12:00′ ).
Rabbi Tovia was brilliant at that point.
It’s the same question that I asked for Richard, and here’s it again:
“We have noticed as muslims and many others who are not muslims (i.e jews and agnostic ones) that christianity, indeed, doesn’t rely on solid logic/ rational arguments rather it relies on (emotional) statements.
Even Dr William Lane Craig has used some emotional arguments to confront Islam, and Dr Qureshi as well in his last book. They keep arguing, for example, that Christianity is true since it presents God as “All loving God”, and love is essential of who God is, “it’s a prat of his essence” (as Nabeel likes to phrase it).
Based on that, I’m wondering…. !
I mean that “all loving God” kept teaching his the most beloved people that he’s not a man nor son of man in such that they wouldn’t even imagine that their God is a man! ,yet he punished them severely because they didn’t believe he is a man dying!
Also,the problem proceeds even further when we know that “all loving God” kept teaching his the most beloved people to keep the commandments to be holy/saved, and he would punish them severely if they didn’t ( and that happened many times to israelites ) while that “all loving God” had already known that no one can be holy/saved by keeping the commandments except by his death on the cross!
It seems for me, that “all loving god” had shackled his the most beloved people for more than 1500 years, while he commanded them repeatedly to swim via vast deep ocean! ,and If they failed, he would punish them severely.
So I’m just wondering what kind of love is that ?”
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I liked Singers analogy of a parent encouraging a crippled child to run, only to teach them that they always needed the wheelchair anyway! In the same way, according to NT God sent down the divine law, and encouraged Jews to follow it for thousand plus years, only to eventually tell them that they could never be saved by the law and they need Jesus instead. Such a misunderstanding, portrays God as being unmerciful and deceitful, and must surely then be false.
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old analogies
Does this answer hold any merit? I think not. God may have the right to create us any way that he chooses but does god then have the right to condemn us because we do not measure up to his perfect standard? That does not seem just to me. He is holding us accountable for not meeting an impossible standard. Let’s say that my son is born deaf. Would it be just for me to punish him because he didn’t hear something that I said? Obviously not.
Does this get God off the hook? Again, I think not. First, if it is inevitable that man commit actual sin because of the condition in which he is born, how can God condemn him for it when he does commit it? My dog is born in a state in which it is inevitable that he will chase a cat if he sees one. Am I right to condemn my dog for doing so? Second, I think most Reformed theologians would disagree with Wyma’s definition of sin.
according to ken temple even having gods spirit on his prophets is not enough to prevent them from sinning
When the prophet Samuel anointed Saul to be king, he said that when Saul met other prophets, “Then the spirit of YHVH will come upon you mightily …”
When Samuel anointed David, “the spirit of YHVH came mightily on David.” In the next verse, “the spirit of YHVH departed from Saul.”
David cries out in Psalm 51:11, “Do not take Your holy spirit from me.”
more analogies :
Copan continues: . . . we must avoid the red herring of original sin as inevitably condemning a person without the cooperation of his will. This original corruption, by itself, does not condemn us, but rather when we align ourselves with it. But is man capable of doing otherwise? He has already argued that the universality of sin is the most empircally… It doesn’t appear that man has any choice. If my car is out of alignment (an analogy that Copan uses to refer to the effects of original sin),is it any surprise when it pulls too much in one direction? Can it do otherwise?
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Mr. Heathcliff,
While I had heard the general argument long ago, you and Singer have provided some new analogies to help explain. Thanks for mentioning those!
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Rabbi Tovia Singer filmed this in 2009 – 100,000 Jews celebrating the “liberation of Jerusalem” from 1967 – 42nd year of their liberation of Jerusalem.
I just saw this when trying to find other videos of his to understand his understanding of OT (and NT) better.
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what has this got to do with the fact that god said you don’t need blood of jesus to have conversation with him (god) ?
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what has this got to do with anything?
your god said that even sinners could save themselves
quote :
14 Certain elders of Israel came to me and sat down before me. 2 And the word of the Lord came to me: 3 Mortal, these men have taken their idols into their hearts, and placed their iniquity as a stumbling block before them; shall I let myself be consulted by them? 4 Therefore speak to them, and say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Any of those of the house of Israel who take their idols into their hearts and place their iniquity as a stumbling block before them, and yet come to the prophet—I the Lord will answer those who come with the multitude of their idols, 5 in order that I may take hold of the hearts of the house of Israel, all of whom are estranged from me through their idols.
6 Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: Repent and turn away from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations. 7 For any of those of the house of Israel, or of the aliens who reside in Israel, who separate themselves from me, taking their idols into their hearts and placing their iniquity as a stumbling block before them, and yet come to a prophet to inquire of me by him, I the Lord will answer them myself. 8 I will set my face against them; I will make them a sign and a byword and cut them off from the midst of my people; and you shall know that I am the Lord.
9 If a prophet is deceived and speaks a word, I, the Lord, have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. 10 And they shall bear their punishment—the punishment of the inquirer and the punishment of the prophet shall be the same— 11 so that the house of Israel may no longer go astray from me, nor defile themselves any more with all their transgressions. Then they shall be my people, and I will be their God, says the Lord God.
12 The word of the Lord came to me: 13 Mortal, when a land sins against me by acting faithlessly, and I stretch out my hand against it, and break its staff of bread and send famine upon it, and cut off from it human beings and animals,
14 even if Noah, Daniel,[a] and Job, these three, were in it, they would save only their own lives by their righteousness, says the Lord God.
15 If I send wild animals through the land to ravage it, so that it is made desolate, and no one may pass through because of the animals; 16 even if these three men were in it, as I live, says the Lord God, they would save neither sons nor daughters; they alone would be saved, but the land would be desolate. 17 Or if I bring a sword upon that land and say, “Let a sword pass through the land,” and I cut off human beings and animals from it; 18 though these three men were in it, as I live, says the Lord God, they would save neither sons nor daughters, but they alone would be saved. 19 Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my wrath upon it with blood, to cut off humans and animals from it;
20 even if Noah, Daniel,[b] and Job were in it, as I live, says the Lord God, they would save neither son nor daughter; they would save only their own lives by their righteousness.
21 For thus says the Lord God: How much more when I send upon Jerusalem my four deadly acts of judgment, sword, famine, wild animals, and pestilence, to cut off humans and animals from it! 22 Yet, survivors shall be left in it, sons and daughters who will be brought out; they will come out to you. When you see their ways and their deeds, you will be consoled for the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, for all that I have brought upon it. 23 They shall console you, when you see their ways and their deeds; and you shall know that it was not without cause that I did all that I have done in it, says the Lord God.
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What does this have to do with the subject here?
It only proves that you cannot deal with argument Rabbi provided.
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“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.” (DEUT. 6: 4-5).
there was no opening of flesh, blood, sacrifice, spilling of blood , eat and drinking jesus, carrying cross, singing in church required.
the heart is not evil because it could be controlled to love god.
god did not say that the heart needs jesus’ blood or you need to beat the shit out of someone in your imagination every time you sin.
he did not say this.
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Ken has no other argument, so he is trying to offend our emotional sensibilities in the hope that we will reject Rabbi Singers valid argument against Paul. Cheap missionary tactic.
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No one has refuted the fact that Luke 1:6 does not say “sinless” and the Rabbi misquoted Jeremiah 2:13 and Jer. 17:13 – “the living water” is not Torah, but the LORD Himself.
and no one has shown what the Rabbi says about Jesus’ interpretation of the law in Matthew 5:21-30 and Mark 7:20-23 – sin is much deeper than external things. Jesus’ interpretation is closer to Genesis 6:5 and Jeremiah 17:9 and Jeremiah 13:23.
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no one is claiming that John’s parents were “sinless” (a red herring), just that God declared they were “righteous” under the law. So Paul was off the mark .
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“On the Day when their tongues, their hands, and their feet will bear witness against them as to their actions.”
christians, jesus aint gonna be speaking for you on that day.
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Paul Williams – Tovia Singer said that Luke 1:6 means “sinless”. It does not. So you are wrong by saying “no one is claiming”. The Rabbi did.
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time slot?
And if God declared them righteous what need of a saviour?
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at 10:05 Rabbi Singer says Luke 1:6 says that both Elizabeth and Zachariah were “sinless”.
Interesting that you did not catch that . . .
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in gods opinion/view/thought/mind
zach and liz were pleasing god.
not in the view of you, the people, the law, but in gods opinion.
luke really murdered christian beliefs when he said that.
you guys have been keeping busy since luke made that announcement .
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he obviously has a different understanding of ‘sinless’ than you. He probably means that they did not break the Law in any way as Luke indeed affirms:
‘Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commands and decrees blamelessly.’
This being the case, they are living witnesses against Paul’s view.
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this is why luke does not have jesus as an levitical animal sacrifice to atone for sins.
luke doesn’t see jesus as a christian magical sacrificial ritual for sins.
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indeed.
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SInger’s video is a red-herring. Deuteronomy 30 states clearly that god will bless the israelis with prosperity in the land that he gave to them, but only if they follow his commands. That doesn’t address salvation at all, but blessings in this life.
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“Deuteronomy is unequivocally saying that following god’s commands brings rewards in this life – Singer’s argument fails. And none of those bible verses come close to supporting your argument.”
your pagan flesh and meat god is not required for either this life or the hereafter. the pauline myth died and was finished off when jerusalem was destroyed.
quote:
In fact Ezekiel 18:24 proves the necessity of Jesus ……
“But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.”
but righteous people did commit sins and did not need jesus when they REPENTED so this DESTROYS jesus
it is/was the end for the crucified IDOL your worship
quote:
But if the wicked turn away from all their sins that they have committed and keep all my statutes and do what is lawful and right, they shall surely live; they shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions that they have committed shall be remembered against them; for the righteousness that they have done they shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the Lord God, and not rather that they should turn from their ways and live?
so here we see that no christian jesus IDOL required at all .
this verse DESTROYS your jesus idol completely . his blood, his flesh and his “works” on the cross KOED by this verse alone.
lets further let your own bible crucify and KO your jesus idol
quote:
When the righteous turn away from their righteousness and commit iniquity, they shall die for it; for the iniquity that they have committed they shall die. 27 Again, when the wicked turn away from the wickedness they have committed and do what is lawful and right, they shall save their life. 28 Because they considered and turned away from all the transgressions that they had committed, they shall surely live; they shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, “The way of the Lord is unfair.” O house of Israel, are my ways unfair? Is it not your ways that are unfair?
the verse says that the righteous CAN turn back to his god if he does what the wicked does and jesus krist is not even mentioned . your gods blood, cross, his death , his “sacrifice” is not LISTED
god says that without your pagan dead meat god, your pagan idol, one can :
“they shall save their life”
save their life without jesus krist your failed and crucified idol .
jesus’ not required.
”
It also destroys islamic theology, in which you can barter your way into heaven by giving to the poor to offset murdering someone, even the smallest sin renders you too impure to be with god – and all have sinned, except Jesus. You cannot work your way into the presence of the Lord, as Ez 18:24 proves and islamic practice is false”
ezekiel says none of the crap you just mentioned
if everyone is sinner and has to turn away then what option did god give?
here is the option
Again, when the wicked turn away from the wickedness they have committed and do what is lawful and right, they shall save their life.
where is that pagan meat god listed?
where is it?
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where is that pauline pagan idol who is probably burning in the depths of hell mentioned in
deu 30 verses 1-10
where is it?
in these verses the jews are dispered and under the control of foreigners
where did yhwh mention that he was going to be a levitical animal sacrifice and one cover themselves with a sacrificed yhwh man-god?
where is there even one mention of this
here
deu 30 verses 1-10
do you see how badly deu 30 verses 1-10 KO your false pagan idol hanging off the cross?
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Mr heathencliff
What’s pagan about jesus?
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so now the man worshipping pagan asks me what is pagan about pauls satanic crucified meat god ?
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mr evil
Yes. What is pagan about jesus?
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so if some random crucified satan with holes in his hands and feet appears to you and tells you to worship him, you wouldn’t think that is evil?
don’t you think idolatry and worshipping forms and images = evil ?
how about poking a god and then taking him as your god? you poked right through his meat and then you thought it was yhwh?
what the heck is this?
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So, you have no idea what is pagan about jesus?
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Paul’s primary message is that Jesus died on cross for sin of mankind and the only way to salvation is to believe in that formula, lets call it CR. However the problem is Jesus didn’t teach this at all.
There are just 3 oblique reference that Jesus made about “CR”. But there is nothing explicit. On top of it,
1. Paul hardly cared to know about Jesus from disciples
2. There is hardly any information about Jesus in his epistles
3. Paul gives contradictory explanation of his encounter to “risen” Jesus
4. the real disciples had problem with him. any idea that the problems were resolved, is from teaching of Paul and his followers. “victors” write history!
Based on my reading it seems that he may have had some kind of “experience” but most likely it was a delusion. It couldn’t have been Jesus as even “risen” Jesus didn’t teach anything like what Paul teaches to his real disciples as recorded in 4 gospels.
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typo” it should have been
“It couldn’t have been Jesus as even “risen” Jesus didn’t teach anything like what Paul teaches, to his (Jesus’) real disciples as recorded in 4 gospels.
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“That doesn’t address salvation at all, but blessings in this life.”
if one has blessing in this life through obeying god then god would stretch the blessing to the next one too.
how do we know this?
See Genesis 4:7; Deuteronomy 30: 11-14, 19-20; Ezekiel Chapters 18 and 33. Also Psalms 145:18.
all agree that god made salvation possible without jesus christ.
nobody needs jesus to speak to god.
nobody needs bloody sacrificial ritual
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and it is interesting isn’t it that the torah thinks that people would be practicing it’s commandments
quote:
When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, 2 and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, 3 then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes[a] and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. 4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. 5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors. 6 The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. 7 The Lord your God will put all these curses on your enemies who hate and persecute you. 8 You will again obey the Lord and follow all his commands I am giving you today. 9 Then the Lord your God will make you most prosperous in all the work of your hands and in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your land. The Lord will again delight in you and make you prosperous, just as he delighted in your ancestors, 10 if you obey the Lord your God and keep his commands and decrees that are written in this Book of the Law and turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
very interesting
when they are dispersed
what should they do ?
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mr heahcliff
That is rubbish.
Deuteronomy is unequivocally saying that following god’s commands brings rewards in this life – Singer’s argument fails. And none of those bible verses come close to supporting your argument.
In fact Ezekiel 18:24 proves the necessity of Jesus ……
“But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.”
It also destroys islamic theology, in which you can barter your way into heaven by giving to the poor to offset murdering someone, even the smallest sin renders you too impure to be with god – and all have sinned, except Jesus. You cannot work your way into the presence of the Lord, as Ez 18:24 proves and islamic practice is false.
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Nope it is not rubbish. This is exactly what Jesus preached too. There is completely coherence between Moses and Jesus ( and muhammed pbuh) . Paul teaches completely different Gospel as he himself admitted.
Mathew 24
The Final Judgment
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’
37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,[f] you did it to me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
The reward and punishment talked here is not of this world. It is for the next life. Notice the word” eternal”. But these pristine teachings of Jesus will not be acceptable to you!
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“Deuteronomy is unequivocally saying that following god’s commands brings rewards in this life – Singer’s argument fails. And none of those bible verses come close to supporting your argument.”
your pagan flesh and meat god is not required for either this life or the hereafter. the pauline myth died and was finished off when jerusalem was destroyed.
quote:
In fact Ezekiel 18:24 proves the necessity of Jesus ……
“But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.”
but righteous people did commit sins and did not need jesus when they REPENTED so this DESTROYS jesus
it is/was the end for the crucified IDOL your worship
quote:
But if the wicked turn away from all their sins that they have committed and keep all my statutes and do what is lawful and right, they shall surely live; they shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions that they have committed shall be remembered against them; for the righteousness that they have done they shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the Lord God, and not rather that they should turn from their ways and live?
so here we see that no christian jesus IDOL required at all .
this verse DESTROYS your jesus idol completely . his blood, his flesh and his “works” on the cross KOED by this verse alone.
lets further let your own bible crucify and KO your jesus idol
quote:
When the righteous turn away from their righteousness and commit iniquity, they shall die for it; for the iniquity that they have committed they shall die. 27 Again, when the wicked turn away from the wickedness they have committed and do what is lawful and right, they shall save their life. 28 Because they considered and turned away from all the transgressions that they had committed, they shall surely live; they shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, “The way of the Lord is unfair.” O house of Israel, are my ways unfair? Is it not your ways that are unfair?
the verse says that the righteous CAN turn back to his god if he does what the wicked does and jesus krist is not even mentioned . your gods blood, cross, his death , his “sacrifice” is not LISTED
god says that without your pagan dead meat god, your pagan idol, one can :
“they shall save their life”
save their life without jesus krist your failed and crucified idol .
jesus’ not required.
”
It also destroys islamic theology, in which you can barter your way into heaven by giving to the poor to offset murdering someone, even the smallest sin renders you too impure to be with god – and all have sinned, except Jesus. You cannot work your way into the presence of the Lord, as Ez 18:24 proves and islamic practice is false”
ezekiel says none of the crap you just mentioned
if everyone is sinner and has to turn away then what option did god give?
here is the option
Again, when the wicked turn away from the wickedness they have committed and do what is lawful and right, they shall save their life.
where is that pagan meat god listed?
where is it?
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Rational
What is your basis for believing that Matthew 24 is referring to Deuteronomy 30?
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“It also destroys islamic theology, in which you can barter your way into heaven by giving to the poor to offset murdering someone, even the smallest sin renders you too impure to be with god – and all have sinned, except Jesus.”
this is a trashy lie.
you christians continue to do the greatest and the smallest sins and you think to your pagan man worshipping selves that you are guaranteed heaven
you don’t give a SHIT about what you do in front of the ALMIGHTY
as long as your can hide under jesus’ SKIRT , you think you have gotten away with it
forget barter this is corruption folks!
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“…even the smallest sin renders you too impure to be with god – and all have sinned, except Jesus.”
“too impure”
lets see
when the wicked turn away from the wickedness they have committed and do what is lawful and right, they shall save their life. 28 Because they considered and turned away from all the transgressions that they had committed, they shall surely live; they shall not die.
jesus krist not required.
god himself WOULD turn that “impurity” into LIFE saving DEED
you cannot impose your pagan false idol unto these verses
after all jesus became a CURSED and IMPURE idol who was BURNING in hell for his sins and other sins, so how can you get PURITY from a PUNISHED and godless idol?
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mr heathcliff
Your words betray the evil in your heart.
Repent.
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“Your words betray the evil in your heart.”
if by “evil” you mean wishing curses upon pauls crucified idol, then amen to that.
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No I mean the hate that your religion has failed to free you from.
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don’t you hate idolatry?
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Bill W: We are discussing in karger picture the means of salvation taught by Moses, Jesus and Muhammed. Peace be upin them all. PBUT in short
All four gospels teach again and again and again that Jesus taught salvation by belief in God/him and doing good deed. That is the same teaching that Moses brought and he taught in so many places, and when Paul corrupted it then it was CORRECTED by God’s final messenger Muhammed. PBUT
Would you take time and tell us where even once Jesus said you must believe in his Crucifixion/ Resurrection (CR) to be saved. Please assume that CR did take place.
Our main dispute with you is where or not CR took place. But actually whether CR has any relevance to salvation. Jesus is clear that salvation is NOT dependent upon his CR. there are at least 100+ teachings of Jesus which teaches salvation by belief in God/himself and good deed and not once with belief in his future CR.
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rational
You have changed the subject and shot yourself in the foot.
The quran clearly says that a crucifixion took place – it affirms the gospel accounts. The only difference is that the quran makes the extremely absurd and unhistorical claim that the guy that allah allowed to die in jesus’ place was a lookalike. No New Testament scholar says that a lookalike was cruciied in jesus’ place.
You are still left with the awkward fact that deuteronomy 30 states clearly that following god’s laws will reap benefits in this life, in the land of Israel, not in some afterlife.
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@Bill : Not so fast.
As I explained the real question for me did Jesus method of salvation or did he leave it for Paul to teach it you? Isn’t that the main question of the thread?
Whether Deut 30 is teaching only wordy reward or not can be discussed. But that is a separate question.
Why don;t you answer the main question that I have asked. Let me word it little more clearly.
“All four gospels teach again and again and again that Jesus taught salvation by belief in God/him and doing good deed. Where did Jesus teach salvation by believing in CR? Show one example where Jesus taught this to any of his disciples in any explicit manner.
As for historicity of Crucifixion , that is a separate question. I will be more than glad to talk to you on this Q, but in a different thread.
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Rational
I’m genuinely not sure what you are trying to argue here.
You quoted John to show that it is supports Deuteronomy 30, and now you are saying that D. 30 has nothing to do with this discussion.
D. 30 is the main argument of Singer and it clearly states that obeying god’s law will bring israelites prosperity, and that they will be guaranteed the land of ISrael. It doesn’t support the argument of salvation through works and the law – that is as plain as day.
As for the other thing, jesus clearly taught that his own death is necessary for the redemption of others.
The quran’s version of the crucifixion is a huge stumbling block for your theory – it supports the historicity of the crucifixion but it asserts an unhistorical alternative. Since both the gospels and the quran agree that there was a crucifixion, and we have reliable sources in which jesus says he must die for the redemption of others, then based on the historical evidence alone, we should agree that jesus died on the cross and that this is what he said he must do for salvation.
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“No I mean the hate that your religion has failed to free you from.”
dr avalos has done a chapter on jesus’ hate in bad jesus . it is over 20 + pages.
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Why should I listen to an atheist who has voiced hate for religion and religious thinking? How does that help promote islam? Are you an atheist?
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retarded christian thinking
quote:
Deuteronomy is unequivocally saying that following god’s commands brings rewards in this life
this
leaves one scratching his head
and asking
when god told someone to love god using his heart (not jesus) wasn’t that suppose to ALSO secure your next life????
brings rewards in this life?
as if god did not have in mind the next life when he told them commands to do in this life.
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“All four gospels teach again and again and again that Jesus taught salvation by belief in God/him and doing good deed. Where did Jesus teach salvation by believing in CR? Show one example where Jesus taught this to any of his disciples in any explicit manner.
Luke 24:25-27 (“to suffer these things” points back to verse 20 – “condemned to death, crucified him”; Jesus rebukes them for not believing in what the prophets and law of Moses prophesied of – the Messiah and His death and resurrection and entering into glory), verse 32 (their hearts were opened and warmed and convinced of the truth that Jesus is the Messiah), 44-48 (the Scriptures teach that the Messiah would be crucified, dead, resurrected and that repentance for forgiveness of sin should be preached to all the nations – repentance includes that faith mentioned back in verses 25-27 – one must believe in the Messiah and His death on the cross and resurrections and repent of their being a sinner (realizing no hope apart from Christ and His atonement) and turn to the Messiah in heart-felt trusting Him.
connect faith in verses 25-27 with repentance in verse 47 and all of them are about the crucifixion and resurrection.
John 5:24 – faith in Christ leads to eternal life
Mark 10:45 – Jesus says He is the suffering servant of Isaiah 52:13-15 and 53:1-12 who would give His life a ransom for many.
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how many times do i have to repeat like paul that one does not need the SHEDDING of blood to speak to God and have direct conversation with Him?
does His hearing and SEEING reduced to seeing a bloody levitical “sacrifice”
how many times? when is there a stop to this shedding of blood?
people cut open their children and did these sacrifices to make themselves feel better, god wants one to beat the shit out of someone in their minds before he speaks to them???
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“without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins” – Hebrews 9:22
“The LORD will pass through . . . when He sees the blood on the doorposts, He passes over . . . ” (Exodus 12:23)
see Exodus 12:22 for the hyssop branch that applied the blood, which David speaks of in Psalm 51:7 – “cleanse me with hyssop” = “cleanse me by the blood of the sacrificial substitutionary atonement”
Leviticus 1:4 – “to make atonement”
Leviticus 4:20, 33, 35 – “to make atonement”
Leviticus 5:5-6; 17-19; chapter 6 (for intentional sins also) – “to make atonement” Lev. chapter 16, 17 – “it is the blood that makes atonement (satisfies God’s wrath against sin)”
Jesus is the propitiation of our sins – Romans 3:24-26; Hebrews 2:17; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:9-10
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Hebrews 9: 23 is in error. Most sins were forgiven without and blood sacrificed. See also the lords prayer
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Hebrews 9:22 – summation of books of Exodus, Leviticus, etc. – why did God go through all that detail in Revealing (holy revelation; God-breathed words) all those details in the law of Moses, if most sins are forgiven without blood sacrifice?
Why did God substitute an innocent ram in the place of Abraham’s son?
Genesis 22;
Qur’an Surah 37:107 “We have ransomed him with a mighty sacrifice.”
Mark 10:45 – “The Son of Man came not to be served, but to serve (claim to be the suffering servant of Isaiah 52:13-15 & 53:1-12) and to give His life a ransom for many.”
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the Lord’s prayer is understood in the context of the temple and sacrifices. The Pharisees obeyed the laws of the sacrifices, and one’s righteousness must surpass the Pharisees – Matthew 5:20 – context for 6:9-14.
The LORD required all three – sacrifice, repentance (confession of sin and turning from it) and faith.
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dead , blood, dead blood , dead , blood , opening, shedding of blood, dead, blood , opening of virgin, dead, blood , opening of virgin , dead, blood, violence, shedding of blood,
then your god rewarded himself after he opened his flesh.
don’t attribute this blasphemous stink to the ALMIGHTY
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when is one going to SEEK and ask god WITHOUT shedding of blood???
quote:
Don’t Christians ever wonder why killing god’s son (whom they believe to have been “god the son,” the second
person of the “Trinity”) was not the greatest sin humans could ever commit? Humans killed god?! Isn’t that the greatest sin anyone could possibly dream of ever committing? How could the humans who committed such a deed ever be forgiven except maybe by killing another divine savior to “atone” for killing the first one? And so on and so forth? At some point the cycle of “atonement” has to be broken by direct forgiveness. At some point direct forgiveness, not based on a bloody sacrifice, has to intervene to break the endless loop. Maybe that’s why Jesus himself did not believe that God’s forgiveness depended on a bloody sacrifice
, but instead taught everyone to pray “in this way…Our Father…Forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us.” Simple. Direct forgiveness.
Has any theologian ever been able to demonstrate how “atonement” works, how physical pain unto death of an animal or person makes up for that time I talked back to my mother, or desired my neighbor’s wife or car?
Sounds exactly like sympathetic magic. Or as comedian Doug Stanhope says, “‘Jesus died for your sins.’ How does one affect the other? I hit myself in the foot with a shovel for your mortgage. I don’t get it.”
Or as my friend Tony Atkinson once asked, “How do ‘sins’ become something substantial in and of themselves? There are memories of being hurt, but ‘sins’ as substantial entities one can collect together and then place inside a body or soul? How do ‘sins’ become collected and where do they exist apart from being past acts? Are ‘sins’ the ‘bad’ memories of God? Do such memories ‘soil’ God’s mind? And he has to dispose of them? Is killing his own son a form of forgetfulness, a means of dissolving such memories? None of this makes sense.”
///////////
so when is one going to leave this bloody go between and ask HIM directly ?
when?
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even those who need to shed animal blood to talk to their god realise that it is all bs
quote :
And can you really have a relationship via proxy? How intimate is a relationship if you have to go through someone else to have a simple conversation with the one you’re to have a relationship with–and with a person (or in this case god) who, were it not for jeesus, would consider you worm fodder and banish you? REmember, according to xians, without jeesus no one could know god or have a relationship with him. So is jeesus our ticket to a relationship with god, or the wool pulled over god’s eyes (and our own) with regard to the true relationship? Or are we really just having a relationship with ourselves and this belief in jeesus is a mere distraction from the reality that no one can know this unreachable god? Is there anything more pathetic and more sad than to have a relationship by proxy; knowing the Object of your supposed loyalty and devotion doesn’t love you but only tolerates you because of someone else? Take that piece away and we’re back to the fundamental view of this “god” to his creation. What does that really say about this “god”?
no set of lies is more damning and more self-serving than to tell people that they are defective from birth, can never know God, cannot improve themselves and they are damned for all eternity unless you believe their variant/cult and to believe otherwise is the ultimate delusion. Are there any lies WORSE to not only one’s soul but one’s perception of the CREATOR HIMSELF??????? Is there anything MORE disgusting to the very Mercy, Compassion and “You can do it!” encouragement given by God Himself (even right in the VERY opening chapters of Genesis—- God tells Cain he can overcome evil! This from a “vengeful, can-never-please-Him” God!)? Is there any sin greater than to have one of God’s creations believe they can never know Him without any aides, “blood tricks” and “redemption coupons” from Jeesus?
The lies of these xians is “God knows you can’t have a relationship with him because you’re dirty, worthless, vile and wretched .. you’re spiritual trash. Only a bloody go between can mend the bridge”. They lie about God and also fail to ask the obvious.. what person would WANT a relationship with someone who will only see you as less than.. and only by the CHARITY of another can you come into a “relationship” with this person? Who wants a relationship with a god who only allows you to come into his presence via a proxy.. can it even be called a relationship? I think this is the most vile lie ever devised… lying about God and then LYING about the inherent potential (and the “god spark” ALL people have!) just so you can form an emotional attachment to jeesus.
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quote:
“without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins” – Hebrews 9:22
“The LORD will pass through . . . when He sees the blood on the doorposts, He passes over . . . ” (Exodus 12:23)
see Exodus 12:22 for the hyssop branch that applied the blood, which David speaks of in Psalm 51:7 – “cleanse me with hyssop” = “cleanse me by the blood of the sacrificial substitutionary atonement”
Leviticus 1:4 – “to make atonement”
Leviticus 4:20, 33, 35 – “to make atonement”
Leviticus 5:5-6; 17-19; chapter 6 (for intentional sins also) – “to make atonement” Lev. chapter 16, 17 – “it is the blood that makes atonement (satisfies God’s wrath against sin)”
Jesus is the propitiation of our sins – Romans 3:24-26; Hebrews 2:17; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:9-10
jesus is nothing for my sins.
you can open jesus in your mind all you want but it is useless pagan bloody go between which does not FIX anything
god told us to use our hearts to LOVE him, not jesus, not his cross, not his blood, not jesus washing powder, but ourselves
SATAN never repents
the HUMAN does and he can do without jesus krist your pagan idol
keep on quoting your pagan and corrupt torah but even it realised that blood sacrifices don’t CURE the problems of humanity
quote:
The Wickedness of Judah
2 Hear, O heavens, and listen, O earth;
for the Lord has spoken:
I reared children and brought them up,
but they have rebelled against me.
3 The ox knows its owner,
and the donkey its master’s crib;
but Israel does not know,
my people do not understand.
4 Ah, sinful nation,
people laden with iniquity,
offspring who do evil,
children who deal corruptly,
who have forsaken the Lord,
who have despised the Holy One of Israel,
who are utterly estranged!
5 Why do you seek further beatings?
Why do you continue to rebel?
The whole head is sick,
and the whole heart faint.
6 From the sole of the foot even to the head,
there is no soundness in it,
but bruises and sores
and bleeding wounds;
they have not been drained, or bound up,
or softened with oil.
7 Your country lies desolate,
your cities are burned with fire;
in your very presence
aliens devour your land;
it is desolate, as overthrown by foreigners.
8 And daughter Zion is left
like a booth in a vineyard,
like a shelter in a cucumber field,
like a besieged city.
9 If the Lord of hosts
had not left us a few survivors,
we would have been like Sodom,
and become like Gomorrah.
10 Hear the word of the Lord,
you rulers of Sodom!
Listen to the teaching of our God,
you people of Gomorrah!
11 What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices?
says the Lord;
I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
and the fat of fed beasts;
I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
or of lambs, or of goats.
12 When you come to appear before me,[a]
who asked this from your hand?
Trample my courts no more;
13 bringing offerings is futile;
incense is an abomination to me.
New moon and sabbath and calling of convocation—
I cannot endure solemn assemblies with iniquity.
14 Your new moons and your appointed festivals
my soul hates;
they have become a burden to me,
I am weary of bearing them.
15 When you stretch out your hands,
I will hide my eyes from you;
even though you make many prayers,
I will not listen;
your hands are full of blood.
16 Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean;
remove the evil of your doings
from before my eyes;
cease to do evil,
17 learn to do good;
seek justice,
rescue the oppressed,
defend the orphan,
plead for the widow.
18 Come now, let us argue it out,
says the Lord:
though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be like snow;
though they are red like crimson,
they shall become like wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient,
you shall eat the good of the land;
20 but if you refuse and rebel,
you shall be devoured by the sword;
for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.
WHEN ARE U GONNA WASH YOUR HANDS AND BREAK THAT CRUCIFIX?
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You quote from Isaiah chapter 1; yes, read the whole book – chapter 52 and 53 also a part of that.
Yes, ritual without repentance and faith is useless. The Bible requires all of them – heartfelt repentance and trust.
Going through the motions of rituals – external obedience – like a lot of Islamic rituals are – dead meaningless dry rituals. dead religion – many Muslims are testifying to this reality – of the meaningless dry rituals that they are forced to do.
Book of Isaiah continues and includes Isaiah 52:13-15 and 53:1-12
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the crucifix is symbol of death and destruction
god wants you to remember PEACE by remembering the violent opening of your god?
what sickness is this?
you like seeing virgins opened and nailed through hands and feet?
if you really like seeing violence why don’t you youtube mob attacks or burning of a people?
the almighty really wants us to see stuff like this to inform us how much pathetic and weak he is when we sin and has no choice but to harm himself?
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grab a sheep and open it to cool of god?
grab jesus every time you sin….????
what is this pagan nonsense?
you wanna feel better
??
is jesus your wife you can beat up in your mind?
quote:
In saying that the suffering of an innocent makes satisfaction to God’s justice, one is saying that God’s justice requires that someone suffer. It then becomes the suffering itself that somehow satisfies God.
But what shall we say adequate to confront the base representation that it is not punishment, not the suffering of the sinner that is required, but suffering! nay, as if this were not depth enough of baseness to crown all heathenish representation of the ways of God, that the suffering of the innocent is unspeakably preferable in his eyes to that of the wicked, as a make-up for wrong done! nay, again, ‘in the lowest deep a lower deep,’ that the suffering of the holy, the suffering of the loving, the suffering of the eternally and perfectly good, is supremely satisfactory to the pure justice of the Father of spirits! Not all the suffering that could be heaped upon the wicked could buy them a moment’s respite, so little is their suffering a counterpoise to their wrong; in the working of this law of equivalents, this lex talionis, the suffering of millions of years could not equal the sin of a moment, could not pay off one farthing of the deep debt. But so much more valuable, precious, and dear, is the suffering of the innocent, so much more of a satisfaction—observe—to the justice of God, that in return for that suffering another wrong is done: the sinners who deserve and ought to be punished are set free.
I know the root of all that can be said on the subject; the notion is imbedded in the gray matter of my Scotch brains; and if I reject it, I know what I reject. For the love of God my heart rose early against the low invention. Strange that in a Christian land it should need to be said, that to punish the innocent and let the guilty go free is unjust! It wrongs the innocent, the guilty, and God himself. It would be the worst of all wrongs to the guilty to treat them as innocent. The whole device is a piece of spiritual charlatanry—fit only for a fraudulent jail—delivery. If the wicked ought to be punished, it were the worst possible perversion of justice to take a righteous being however strong, and punish him instead of the sinner however weak. To the poorest idea of justice in punishment, it is essential that the sinner, and no other than the sinner, should receive the punishment. The strong being that was willing to bear such punishment might well be regarded as worshipful, but what of the God whose so-called justice he thus defeats? If you say it is justice, not God that demands the suffering, I say justice cannot demand that which is unjust, and the whole thing is unjust. God is absolutely just, and there is no
deliverance from his justice, which is one with his mercy. The device is an absurdity—a grotesquely deformed absurdity.
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quote:
Hebrews 9:22 – summation of books of Exodus, Leviticus, etc. – why did God go through all that detail in Revealing (holy revelation; God-breathed words) all those details in the law of Moses, if most sins are forgiven without blood sacrifice?
because these were lies and later prophets realised this. blood and flesh doesn’t get cooked and god doesn’t smoke it.
your books have lies and the lying pen of the scribes turned it into a lie and fraud
god is not a smoker
all those details btw have nothing to do with yeshua your pagan man god.
those priestly details were useless to the writers such as jeremiah and isaiah
“god breathed” go and read a scholarly book before you say “god breath”
why did the world go through the DETAIL of putting their own children LIFE on the line to appease their gods
forger the OT and look at the human sacrifices the world was practicing
the egyptians, the hebrews, the aztecs, the this and that
why did they make ALTARS why did they have offerings of human
why?
it is all lies attributed to the true God.
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The Rabbi you guys are using on this post, Rabbi Tovia Singer, believes all those words in the Torah about sacrifices and the tabernacle and the temple are all “God-breathed” words.
It is inconsistent to try and use him and his teaching and then speak against those words that come from the same source (God, who sent down the Torah, Zobur, and Injeel).
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Why is it inconsistent?
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Because you are using him in some areas; but then when the OT sacrifices are quoted by me; you reject those parts as some how not part of the law of Moses.
It is also inconsistent, since the Qur’an says all the Law of Moses is God’s word, and yet you pick and choose what you will accept and reject – it is an inconsistent methodology.
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@Ken: I hope you understand simple English. Does any of the quote you provided tells you to believe in CR of Jesus as a means of your salvation?
No one is denying that ( in fact i am insisitng on that point) that you need to believe in Jesus ( as Christ, as prophet, as man sent from God etc) and God himself. Here are the six verses where Jesus himself says why he case. Please tell me which of them teaches salvation through BELIEF in CR
“I have come to call not those who think they are righteous, but those who know they are sinners and need to repent” (Luke 5:32).
“The Son of Man came to seek and save those who are lost” (Luke 19:10).
“Don’t imagine that I came to bring peace to the earth! I came not to bring peace, but a sword” (Matthew 10:34).
“I entered this world to render judgment—to give sight to the blind and to show those who think they see that they are blind” (John 9:39).
“I have come as a light to shine in this dark world, so that all who put their trust in me will no longer remain in the dark” (John 12:46).
These are explicit saying of Jesus where he teaches his main purpose. Do you see anywhere that Jesus teaches you must believe in his future death and resurrection to be saved?
But how about the ransom verse? Let’s read it together.
41 When the ten heard about this, they became indignant with James and John. 42 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 43 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 44 and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. 45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” (Mark 10)
Here Jesus saying if you like to be saved ( if u want to be first, or want to be great) you must be slave and the way to be slave is to follow him and be willing to give your life as ransom as he is willing to do. In any case he never said anything about “belief in his death or resurrection in these verses. Ransom doesn’t mean death in any place this word in mentioned in OT or NT. I am baffled how christian theologians tie it to death and resurrection of Jesus?
In any case here are the goals that Jesus TAUGHT in his own words. That’s why I tell Christians that unless you have sold your soul to Paul, there is no reason to impose his theology upon Jesus. Why not let Jesus speak himself?
It took me a while to understand why Christians don’t give damn about teaching of Jesus. However it seems it is well known and understood by christian theologians. From Bultmann to Tim Keller and this (http://doctrine.org/) , all serious theologians acknowledge that teaching of Jesus in his earthly ministry is irrelevant. Some say so openly , some do a “work around”.
Now it is upto individual Christians to decide whether be faithful to Jesus or to Paul and councils. You can’t have both.
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Jesus and Paul are 100% unified. Jesus called the apostle Paul to be His apostle and write Scritpure, with the other 27 books of the NT. They are all one unified message.
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ken, you tell me how carrying a crucifix and remember your pagan gods “sacrificial” ritual has stopped sin.
your pagan dead ritual of eating your god and hiding under jesus’ skirts have INCREASED sin.
you depend on someone elses DEAD ritual to FIX your own problem
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quote:
The Rabbi you guys are using on this post, Rabbi Tovia Singer, believes all those words in the Torah about sacrifices and the tabernacle and the temple are all “God-breathed” words.
It is inconsistent to try and use him and his teaching and then speak against those words that come from the same source (God, who sent down the Torah, Zobur, and Injeel).
end quote
tovia singer wants to practice dead jewish rituals in the temple
by having self fullfill the false “prophecies ” of his torah (taking a land of a people and driving them out of their places) he is dreaming of practicing dead torah priestly rituals which did not solve the problem of sins.
these jews are thinking that dead shedding of blood and making a barbecue so their god SMOKES/inhales it is going to fix the problem of sin lol
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you wanna chat with god?
sorry mate , you need a door and you probably gonna get trapped through the door way
immerse your brain with this pagan bs :
quote:
Okay but what you just described makes the Father sound like a blood-thirsty tyrant.
Why does he insist that someone die in order for him to be happy? It also sounds sadistic that a Father would allow his son to go through such humiliation and suffering. It doesn’t make sense outside of the PST. It doesn’t make any sense in Abelard’s theory. God could have showed us how much he loves us in a less gruesome and sadistic way unless his holiness actually demanded such a sacrifice which I think Paul implies and PST teaches. Steven Chalke who is an evangelical but not a PST adherent calls PST–“cosmic child abuse.”
end quote
blood, opening, nailing, blood, shedding, opening , nailing, pain, opening , blood
nearly every “good” a crosstian has done is go back to the PRACTICES of the torah prophets and put that in their life
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ken maybe you should drop jesus and hold hands with singer and start slicing the real lambs in the jewish temple?
since you love the torah so much, why aren’t you preparing for temple sacrifices for sins?
they think even their messiah is going to be slicing necks to atone for his sins
lol
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quote:
Here Jesus saying if you like to be saved ( if u want to be first, or want to be great) you must be slave and the way to be slave is to follow him and be willing to give your life as ransom as he is willing to do. In any case he never said anything about “belief in his death or resurrection in these verses. Ransom doesn’t mean death in any place this word in mentioned in OT or NT. I am baffled how christian theologians tie it to death and resurrection of Jesus?
end quote
quote:
This thread reminds me of a question I always had as a child about Jesus’ message. Remember in the gospels where early in his ministry Jesus sends the disciples out two by two to teach and to preach? I always wondered what it was they were teaching and preaching. It couldn’t be faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus because it hadn’t happened yet. In the New Testament one can detect a bit of a disconnect between the teachings of Jesus and the teachings about Jesus. What seems to have happened is that the religion of Jesus eventually became a religion about Jesus.
Jesus sent out his disciples with the message that the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
That said, I don’t think think the historical Jesus thought his death was going to be an atonement, and when he’s on the cross Mark’s Jesus seems to forget 10:45 as well! (See the cry of dereliction)
If Jesus’ death truly atoned for the sins of mankind, why did sacrifices continue for another forty years after the Crucifixion (until the destruction of the temple in 70CE). Additionally, the Hebrew scriptures clearly state that when the messiah, whom the Jews are awaiting, arrives, the temple will be rebuilt and sacrifices will be re-established. If Jesus’ sacrificial death truly atoned for the sins of all mankind, including the Jews, why didn’t sacrifices end when the curtain tore in the then existing temple and what would be the point of rebuilding the temple in the future and reestablishing sacrifices when the messiah establishes his kingdom on Earth.
Just a thought… “Giving his life as a ransom for many” could be taken merely as a way of saying he’d let himself be seized and executed, because he knew his escape would lead to the authorities he’d angered going after his followers.
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“Yes, ritual without repentance and faith is useless. The Bible requires all of them – heartfelt repentance and trust.”
ritual ? if you have repentance and love your god, then what does the cutting of the neck, bringing your animal and giving it up symbolise?
if you have heartfelt ability within the person then the bringing of jesus to kill him everytime you sin is USELESS
“Going through the motions of rituals – external obedience – like a lot of Islamic rituals are – dead meaningless dry rituals. dead religion – many Muslims are testifying to this reality – of the meaningless dry rituals that they are forced to do.”
yet you eat and drink jesus and you remember a pagan ritual your god did on the cross
your entire religion is dead and ritualistic.
remember it was your god who had to do EXTERNAL acts to be seen by men
it was your god with holier than thou attitude
it was your god who came down as a jew and practiced DEAD jewish rituals
it was your god wearing jewish gear to practice DEAD jewish rituals
”
Book of Isaiah continues and includes Isaiah 52:13-15 and 53:1-12″
trust me, there is no levitical animal sacrifice in view for the guy who is suffering
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@ Rational Muslim:
You quoted Luke 5:32 and 19:10
“I have come to call not those who think they are righteous, but those who know they are sinners and need to repent” (Luke 5:32).
“The Son of Man came to seek and save those who are lost” (Luke 19:10). (points back to why He came to earth – the virgin birth – Luke 1:26-35 and 2:11 – He was the eternal Son of God who became flesh/human – John 1:1-5; 1:14; Philippians 2:5-8
Luke 5:32 includes all of the book of Luke
repentance based on realizing one is a sinner by nature and turning to the Messiah and His death and resurrection – all of Luke leads to Luke chapter 24
It is all about repentance and faith in His atonement for sin (the cross and resurrection from the dead)
Luke 24:20
Luke 24:25-27
Luke 24:32
Luke 24:44-47
You have not even read these verses – every Muslim here seems to ignore them.
Luke 1:6 – part of Elizabeth and Zachariah’s righteousness is their obedience to the sacrifices and sacrificial system in the temple at the time.
Luke 18:9-14 – Two men went to the temple to pray . . .
Jesus told the parable as a lesson for people who think they are righteous and treated others with contempt –
as Patrice said, (my paraphrase from my memory) – “the reason why I am not religious is that it bread self-righteousness”.
going to the temple includes doing the rituals of all the sacrificial system and blood atonement
Elizabeth and Zachariah’s righteousness was based on the righteousness of innocent sacrifices offered in their place.
Jesus was the ultimate fulfillment of that. Luke 24:25-27; 32; 44-47
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so do you see the opening of animal neck as a good action or a sinful action?
is the act of looking after the animal, bringing it and killing it a good action?
are these menstrual rag actions?
is having a thought in your mind “i bring my $1000 dollar meat and give it up to god” a good thought ?
so do these acts really symbolise the good in man?
if yes, then when are you gonna do the good acts of sacrificing 4 legged lamb?
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The Islamic Eid Al Adha عید الاضحی has the ritual of slicing the sheep/ram/goat/lamb’s neck and slaughtering / sacrificing it ذبح and the Qur’an even affirms this as a ransom (substitute) – فدیه ، فدا – root of the word in Qur’an Surah 37:107. Same word translated into Arabic and Farsi in Mark 10:45 – ransom.
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“Elizabeth and Zachariah’s righteousness was based on the righteousness of innocent sacrifices offered in their place.”
does your god look beyond ritual opening of animals or his his mind 24/7 bloody?
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The Messiah Jesus later fulfilled all the OT sacrifices as the final and eternal sacrifice.
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Ken , Don’t throw wool on peoples eyes. You still haven;’t brought a single statement from Jesus about necessity of believing in CR as means of salvation. Where in Luke 24 do you Jesus asking you to believe in his CR?
Lets assume Jesus suffered great deal, lets also assume for argument sake that he was indeed crucified on cross. So what? How does that make you to leap that his CR was means of salvation. Was suffering death of John the baptist and many other prophets “means” for your salvation? or is belief in someone “resurrection” needed? Well there are many ( like Lazarus and saints) who were resurrected. Does BELIEF in their resurrection is means of your salvation? why not?
Why only insert your theology in CR of Jesus but not death and in some cases death and resurrection of others?
So if you want to respond please reply where Jesus actually asks you to believe in his CR. We are not debating whether or not CR occurred. Rather we are debating whether CR has any salvation value ?
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quote:
The Islamic Eid Al Adha عید الاضحی has the ritual of slicing the sheep/ram/goat/lamb’s neck and slaughtering / sacrificing it ذبح and the Qur’an even affirms this as a ransom (substitute) – فدیه ، فدا – root of the word in Qur’an Surah 37:107. Same word translated into Arabic and Farsi in Mark 10:45 – ransom.
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
does god say that any of these are magical and that he eats and drinks the blood
don’t impose your filthy corrupt ideas unto these texts
the animals don’t get smoked by god , they get eaten by humans for humans benefits.
the act of giving up, the act of looking after the animal, the act of sharing its meat, the act of remembering that a human has been saved is all viewed as good actions .
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the innocent sinless ram suffered in the place of all of us sinful humans.
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so Jesus was a four legged creature with a tail?
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the innocent ram sacrificed foreshadowed and prophesied of the suffering servant/Messiah to come in the future. Isaiah 53, Daniel 9:24-27
Jesus sacrifice was like the lambs and sheep and ram in the OT. the “beloved son” aspect of Abraham’s obedience foreshadowed God’s willingness to give His Son.
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Where in Luke 24 do you Jesus asking you to believe in his CR?
CR = crucifixion
It is all right there in those verses in Luke 24
Luke 24:20 -crucified, dead
Luke 24:25-27 – believe in the prophets predictions of the Messiah and His suffering death and crucifixion
Luke 24:32 – the Lord has to open and convict your heart to get it
Luke 24:44-47 – all His words, including verses 20, 25-27, have to be believed and that includes His crucifixion predicted in the law and prophets, and the suffering of crucifixion, death, and resurrection were written about in the prophets and faith and repentance are required, based on His death and resurrection; and that message must be preached to all the nations.
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“The Messiah Jesus later fulfilled all the OT sacrifices as the final and eternal sacrifice.”
what? when liz and zach were doing the sacrifices, then wasn’t it the blood of the animals which was making your god happy?
what has any of this got to do with jesus lol?
are you telling me that yhwh was seeing jesus’ blood and mistaking it for animal blood?
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btw , notice that when luke goes back to isaiah , he does not view jesus as a levitical animal offering? notice the words he makes use from is 53?
why is that?
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OK ken lets read again Luke 24.
20 The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him
Does this verse asks that you must believe in CR as means of salvation?
25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.
Does this verse asks that you must believe in CR as means of salvation?
32 They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”
Does this verse asks that you must believe in CR as means of salvation?
44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Does this verse asks that you must believe in CR as means of salvation? It talks about suffering, death and resurrection of Messiah not importance of believing this episode as MEANS of salvation. It also talks about repentance ( tauba) and forgiveness ( istighfar) that every Muslim believes.
Don’t insert words in the mouth of Jesus. If you can , then insert the same everywhere as I have examples of death and resurrection of others? ready?
you wrote “all His words, including verses 20, 25-27, have to be believed”
Well Jesus also raised the dead, drove demons out, cursed a fig tree, turned water into wine, rode donkey into Jerusalem, cursed pharisees, was tempted was Satan, called peter a Satan and all events of life of Jesus.
Why not insist that you must believe all these events as MEANS of salvation. Why give this privilege to only his CR? Believing in events as recorded in Gospels is not same as believing them as “means” to salvation. Why would take that leap?
Do you see how silly is your position. This is what happens when you “create” a new religion instead of following religion of Jesus.
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A true believer accepts everything in the NT as truth, as well as the OT, which provides the foundation for the NT.
the miracles Jesus performed proved and demonstrated He was the Messiah, the eternal Son of God, the Word of God.
When Jesus connects faith in the crucifixion in verses 20, 22-25 with repentance for the forgiveness of sins, based on His death and resurrection (in verses 46-47), it should be easy to see. The repentance for forgiveness of sins is based on His death and resurrection and faith in His crucifixion.
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@Ken. So you admit that Jesus didn’t explicitly taught it. That’s why now you are words things like this?
“When Jesus connects faith in the crucifixion in verses 20, 22-25 with repentance for the forgiveness of sins”
BTW why are you not willing to trust Jesus where he teaches salvation in 100s of his saying. Why go against his explicit teachings? Don’t you fear God?
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Christians have to know that alleged Jesus’ crucifixion & resurrection per se don’t prove christianity.
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Does this verse asks that you must believe in CR (crucifixion) as means of salvation?
Yes, because it connects verses 20 and 25-27 and 32 and 44-47 – faith, crucifixion, resurrection, repentance for forgiveness of sins, and that only God can open your heart (verse 32); etc. It is all clearly connected.
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People could be forgiven in the OT without any sacrifices.
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It connects only when you already believe in that specific theology. And you do that only by ignoring 100s of explicit saying of Jesus on salvation.
Else what prevents you from believing in death and resurrection for example of Lazarus as means of salvation? and why not cursing fig tree is means of salvation for you?
Why play fast and loose? why not be consistent?
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Could you refer where (Luke 24:46) was mentioned in the previous scripture?
Could you explain why Jesus must die, and how that affected on the disciples when they preached the gospel?
Are you saying that the disciples who were with Jesus from the beginning had not a clue about the significance of Jesus’ death till he told them after his bodily resurrection?
How can for the beloved people of God whom they sent Jesus to Cross get that significance then ?
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Luke 24:46 is in Isaiah 52-53; Psalm 22; 16; Genesis 22; Exodus 12; Leviticus chapters 1-7; Psalm 110; Psalm 2
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@Abdullah: Lets deal one specific topic at a time. I have had several run ins with these apologists and when you corner them they change the topic. If you mix them they will get an out and run away.
The entire super structure of Christianity is based on the idea that Jesus came to die for their sins and by BELIEVING in his death and resurrection they are saved. So we have several questions here
1. Did OT prophets ever teach that a “messiah” will come to die for the sins of mankind?
2. Did Jesus ever teach that he came to die for sins of mankind ?
3. Did Jesus even teach that one MUST believe in his CR as means of salvation
4. What method of salvation did Jesus actually teach?
5. Did CR event take place?
6. Can we trust NT account to prove CR event?
We are right now discussing with Ken #3. We have already seen that Ken (kind of ?) admits that Jesus didn’t explicitly teach this idea so he uses language like “connect” etc etc, which is at best a stretch of Jesus’ teaching. OK Ken , can we now move to #4 then as it is closely related to #3.
BTW when I raised these simple questions to some very learned Christians scholars in my town, they actually say that yes Jesus didn’t teach but Paul did! They have no shame in admitting the truth.
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1. Did OT prophets ever teach that a “messiah” will come to die for the sins of mankind?
Daniel 9:24-27
Isaiah 52:13-15
Isaiah 53:1-12
2. Jesus, – yes
Mark 10:45
1 John 4:9-10
Hebrews 2:14-18
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@Ken: Don’t change the topic. We are discussing #3.
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I already proved it. Faith is in v. 25-27 and repentance is in v. 46-47, both based on crucifixion and resurrection.
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Really Ken???? If that is the extent of your evidence they you should have no difficulty to believe that you will be saved by “calling Peter as Satan”???
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ken,
i say
luke know that his source mark is dependant on isaiah 53. luke is not seeing atonement for sins in isaiah 53, so he interprets isaiah 53 differently than mark.
you must agree to this
there is no magical blood atonement in lukes narrative .
17 And he took a cup and gave thanks, and he said: “Take this and divide it among yourselves; 18 for I say to you that from now on I will not drink from the fruit of the vine until the Kingdom of God comes.” 19 And taking bread he gave thanks and broke it and gave it to them saying, “This is my body that is given for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 20 Likewise after supper (he took) the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood that is shed for you. 21 But see, the hand of the one who turns me over is with me at the table….”
“that is ” from
“shed for you”
is an interpolation by christian fraudy scribes.
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quote:
1. Did OT prophets ever teach that a “messiah” will come to die for the sins of mankind?
ken , in luke there is no idea of bloody atonement for sins
no magical atonement
no shedding of blood for sins.
no animal/temple bloody opening /magical bloody opening of jesus
in lukes version
lukes religion was different than the religion which you believe in.
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Luke 22:19-20
is an interpolation by christian fraudy scribes.
Not true –
“All Greek manuscripts except D [ Codex Bezae Cantabrigiensis – 5th Century ] testify to the presence of Luke 22:19-20 in the account of the Last Supper.”
Philip Comfort, New Testament Text and Translation Commentary, Tyndale House, 2008, page 232.
on page 231, Comfort lists the major NT manuscripts that have it:
p-75
א = Siniaticus
A = Alexandrinus
B = Vaticanus
C – Ephraemi Rescriptus
and many others
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It is interesting that in Rabbi Tovia Singer’s lecture on Daniel 9:24-27,
https://outreachjudaism.org/daniel-nines-70-weeks-audio/
he agrees with:
1. That the seventy weeks means seventy periods of seven years = 490 years
2. That that time takes us up to the destruction of the temple in 70 AD and Daniel 9:26 describes the destruction of the temple
3. That the people of the prince to come are the Romans and Titus, who destroyed the temple. (70 AD)
24 “Seventy weeks [ 490 years ] have been decreed for your people and your holy city, [ for the OT people and city of Jerusalem to become the Old covenant and replaced by the new Covenant for all nations]
to finish the transgression,
to make an end of sin,
to make atonement for iniquity,
[the atonement on the cross accomplished these three descriptions]
to bring in everlasting righteousness, [ eternal righteousness is brought in when someone is justified by faith in Christ alone – Romans 3, 4, 5, Galatians]
to seal up vision and prophecy [ end of revelation with NT writings]
and
to anoint the most holy place [ or most holy one = Messiah’s anointing when baptized]
25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem [ 457 BC decree of Artaxerxes]
until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks (49) and sixty-two weeks [ 49 + 62 = 483 years, which brings us to 26 AD, when Jesus was baptized or anointed] ; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.
26 Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off [see parallel with the suffering servant being “cut off from the land of the living” in Isaiah 53:8]
and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. [ 70 AD and destruction of the temple was decreed by Jesus in Matthew 24 in 30 Ad and fulfilled 40 years later]
And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.
27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed [decreed 40 years earlier], is poured out on the one who makes desolate.
Of course some of the other details, the Rabbi does not agree with the Christian interpretation, but the ones he does agree with are very interesting, and give evidence of the first century Jewish followers of Jesus view and Christian interpretation.
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show an explicit verse in the gospel of luke which says that the opening/shedding of jesus atones for sins
show that luke viewed jesus as an levitical animal offering
show that luke believed that the piercing of jesus (we don’t know if jesus got PIERCED in luke because it does not say that lukes post “ressurected” jesus had holes in his hands and side)
and opening of his flesh was atoning for sins
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if you drank your mothers milk , prove in lukes gospel that the opening of jesus was a magical levitical atoning for sins
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quote:
46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
job suffers too
for no reason
job 1:1
job 2:3
job , according to god, SUFFERED
for NOTHING
hebrew EXPLICITLY SAYS
“SMITTEN 4 nothing”
“forgiveness for sins” has NOTHING to do with SUFFERING and opening of jesus.
the “and” is just additional information which introduces new information
it does not say :
”
will be preached THROUGH his sacrificial ritual “
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paul wrote :
People could be forgiven in the OT without any sacrifices.
////////
people could be forgiven in the ot without jesus krist crucified idol of christianity.
when god spoke to people, did he say
1. are you an angel?
2. are you god?
3 . are you perfect ?
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Ken,
All verses you mentened have nothing to do to Luke 24:46, and you know it.
So far, the death and resurrection of Jesus don’t mean anything for christianity per se.
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the suffering of the Messiah in Luke 24:46 is a short phrase that includes the crucifixion and death,
back in Luke 24:20
“and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to the sentence of death, and crucified Him.”
and Luke 24:25-27
“O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Was it not necessary for the Messiah to suffer these things (see verse 20 = condemned to death, crucifixion) and enter into His glory (ascend to heaven after resurrection – see John 17:5) ? And beginning with Moses and all the prophets He explained to them the them things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.”
Jesus clearly says that faith in what the prophets wrote about the Messiah and His death and resurrection are necessary for salvation – and He makes it more clear with Luke 24:46-47 that repentance for forgiveness of sins based on the cross and resurrection will be preached to all nations.
You are being deliberately obtuse to not see this.
It is amazing; as if you don’t know how to even think, by the way you keep not getting it. Your brains are not working.
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quote:
25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.
where does this say that jesus was seen as a animal sacrifice for the atonement of sins?
where does this say that the opening, nailing and piercing of jesus (note that lukes jesus does not have pierced side and pierced hands when he reappears to his friends in the room) atones for sins?
why are you conflating suffering with atonement for sins?
quote:
did not the messiah suffer to atone for sins
quote:
did not the opening of flesh atone for sins?
quote:
did not the shedding of blood atone for sins?
notice that none of these questions are derived from
“did not the messiah have to suffer these things…”
in luke, the suffering or the opening of flesh or the shedding of blood has no magical atoning power.
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Ken,
My brain works 100%. Don’t worry about that. It seems you didn’t get the point. The death and resurrection of Jesus as christians present them do not mean anything . It’s not enough to say that Jesus must die according to previous scripture although this is not mentioned in the previous scripture, especailly as it’s written in ( luke24:46), yet you need to prove that Jesus must die (for your sins).
(Must die) alone does not mean anything. Luke24:11 shows that disciples had no idea of this teaching. Acts2 , when Peter spoke to Israelites, he did not mention anything about ( the sacrifice death). You force the teaching of Paul inside the text while the text has nothing to do of what Paul said.
Also, I have no Idea what ( john17:5) has to do with death and rresseruction of Jesus. However, if I have to consider John17:5, then you have to consider (John17:3). In both cases Jesus is not the only true God.
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Your brain does not seem work very well because you are not seeing that the context continues from Luke 24:20 (fact of crucifixion and death) to Luke 24:25-27 (Jesus rebukes them for not believing in what the prophets wrote about – His suffering, death, and resurrection) (which is quite clear in Isaiah 52:13-15 and 53:1-12; Daniel 9:24-27; Psalm 22, Psalm 16; Genesis 12:3, 18:18; 22:1-18; 26:4; 28:14; 49:10; Exodus 12; Leviticus chapters 1-7; 16-17; etc.
Jesus connects faith in the OT Scriptures and the crucifixion and resurrection of the Messiah to repentance for the forgiveness of sins (salvation) in Luke 24:46-47.
Peter mentions the crucifixion in Acts 2, your brain does not seem to work. Luke, the writer of the gospel according to Luke and Acts, clearly wrote about faith in the substitutionary atonement of the Messiah in Acts 8:30-37 (quoting from Isaiah 53:7-8)
John 17:5 – Jesus speaks of His glory He had with the Father in eternity past, before creation – so in Luke 24:25-27, when Jesus speaks about “suffering and entering into His glory”, He is talking about His death, resurrection from the dead, and ascension back to heaven and receiving that glory back that He had in eternity past with the Father.
You are demanding that everything has to be in one verse, and that is wrong of you.
All of the NT is one unified revelation; Paul and Peter and Jesus and Matthew and John and Luke and Mark and the writer of Hebrews, James and Jude, all agree with each other.
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“You are demanding that everything has to be in one verse, and that is wrong”
That’s not true! Your bible by its nature is books written by different authors in different times, and each of whom has its own idea. I have to deal with it based on this fact.
You try to push them with each other as if it’s written by ine author, yet it doesn’t work.
You are still talking about ( suffering death). This is not the point! You need to prove that suffering death is atonement for people’s sins. This idea is NOT found in the four gospels which btw were written after Paul had written his letters already.
Acts2, Peter talked about the crucifixion, yet there’s no mention about a crucifixion happened for people’s sins!
Acts 8 as well, and as I know acts8 was not from one of Jesus’ disciples to begin with.
I just cannot see the passion to teach this idea neither from Jesus nor from his disciples. This idea is one of the pillars in christianity, yet it’s so vague except in Paul’s writings which we know that his ideas about Jesus were not taken from Jesus’ disciples as he said.
All verses in OT you mentioned are not ( Luke24:46)
You can go one by one to show that these verse have nothing to do with messiah dying.
However, the point here is to prove that the death of messiah is for people’s sins. To prove that Messiah died, it doesn’t mean anything.
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rise from the dead
The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead
Luke 24:46
means the suffering was a suffering to death – rising from the dead means He died.
Duh !
You are just being stupid.
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Ken . you still have answered why believing “Peter is Satan” will not lead to salvation? (this is not my proposition. It is one of the sayings of Jesus)
That is best the strength of your argument about salvation through CR that you have provided.
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quote:
25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.
where does this say that jesus was seen as a animal sacrifice for the atonement of sins?
where does this say that the opening, nailing and piercing of jesus (note that lukes jesus does not have pierced side and pierced hands when he reappears to his friends in the room) atones for sins?
why are you conflating suffering with atonement for sins?
quote:
did not the messiah suffer to atone for sins
quote:
did not the opening of flesh atone for sins?
quote:
did not the shedding of blood atone for sins?
notice that none of these questions are derived from
“did not the messiah have to suffer these things…”
in luke, the suffering or the opening of flesh or the shedding of blood has no magical atoning power.
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define shedding of blood
destruction of life, as in war or murder; slaughter. 2. the shedding of blood by injury, wound, etc. Origin of bloodshed Expand. blood + shed2.
suffering
ˈsʌf(ə)rɪŋ/Submit
noun
the state of undergoing pain, distress, or hardship.
now where does luke say that the opening of virgin jessica/jesus
ATONES for sins?
where does he say that the blood leaking out of jesus atones for sins
where does he say that the OPEN flesh of jeuss atones for sins?
where does he say that the suffering atones for sins
seeing a person SUFFER may create guilt (just watch youtube mob attacks) , but causing GUILT is not to be conflated with ATONING for sins via SHEDDING of blood
your religion is sick
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if i am being STUPID, then you called bart ehrman who reads your corrupt pagan greek text in greek STUPID
even bart can’t see in the text that luke thought jesus opening of flesh atones for sins
or his death atones for sins
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Ehrman, in his book, ” Jesus, Interrupted” pp.187-188, was mis-leading, and not totally accurate in his statement about Luke 22:19-20 – it is in all the oldest Greek manuscripts except for Codex Bezae Cantabrigensis. By focusing on one or two textual variants, he gave the impression that the whole 2 verses are missing. They are not.
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Many scholars think they are not original
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If they do; they are not being honest about the textual data. Only Codex Bezae Contabringensis does not have them. See Comfort’s book – you can find it easy with google books.
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You do not understand how textual criticism works dude. You have no idea…
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quote:
As we have seen, Luke’s two-volume work avoids all mention of Jesus giving his body and shedding his blood for his followers (ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν) ; Luke eliminated or changed the Marcan references to Jesus’ atoning sacrifice; he chose not to quote Isaiah 53 to depict Jesus’ death as an atonement for sins, even though he quoted the passage otherwise; he referred back to Jesus’ death in the book of Acts simply as if it were a miscarriage of justice that God set right in raising Jesus from the dead.
end quote
ken, why would luke change markan references?
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Ken . you still have NOT answered why believing “Peter is Satan” will not lead you to salvation? (this is not my proposition. It is one of the sayings of Jesus)
That is the best strength of your argument about salvation through BELIEF in CR that you could provide so far.
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That is the best strength of your argument about salvation through BELIEF in CR that you could provide so far.
What is “that” ?
Jesus did not mean literally that Peter is Satan, but that Satan was working on his thinking by saying, “may it never be Lord, You shall never go the cross”, etc.
Matthew 16:33
see context of Matthew 16:31-32
“suffer many things and be killed, and be raised up on the third day”
21 From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day.
22 Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You.”
23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s.”
Jesus demonstrates that it was God the Father’s plan for the atonement, salvation by His death on the cross, and resurrection; and that Jesus the Son predicted and prophesied of it beforehand.
So, the Bible and Christianity are true.
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Typo – it should have been Matthew 16:21-23, not 31-33
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Dude! The topic is not whether Peter is Satan. I made that reference to draw your attention that just like you are drawing your conclusion based on an event (CR) in life of Jesus, why you are not drawing same conclusion from other events from his life?
I have given you several examples of similar nature.
*Why not believe that death of John the Baptist is for you salvation?
*How about death and resurrection of Lazarus and other saints?
*or Jesus riding donkey into Jerusalem
*or Jesus calling Peter a Satan.
Why pick and choose? why can’t you be consistent.
So you insist that BELIEF in CR leads to salvation then you need to bring evidence why only this event and why not any of the dozens of other events should qualify for this privilege. and what are you going to do with 100s of saying explicit saying of Jesus on salvation that is different than this theory?
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Because the suffering and death of Christ for the forgiveness of sins and faith and repentance based on that is the clear teaching of all the NT. The NT is a unified whole. Jesus, through the Holy Spirit, inspired all the 27 books of the NT. The main point of all four gospels is leading to the cross and resurrection. Matthew chapters 26-28; Mark chapters 14-16; Luke chapters 22-24; John chapters 18-21.
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The New Testament does not claim to be inspired by Jesus anywhere. That is just your religious belief.
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That is what Jesus meant when He said that He will send the Holy Spirit who would lead the disciples into all the truth – John 14:23; 15:26; 16:12-13
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How do you know he meant that?
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It is obvious.
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I understand a lot of how textual criticism works.
Had it in seminary and continue to study it.
Stop lying about me.
https://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-Text-Translation-Commentary/dp/141431034X
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Thank God for Ken Temple. One man against so many muslims! You have provided enough proof that point to the belief in Jesus death and resurrection as means for salvation. I read all the comments and feel sorry for the muslim. May the Lord JESUS open their eyes and hearts to come to the light.
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In all honesty, most Jews don’t really think about Paul. He comes up now and again, but the overriding emotion towards Paul, at least currently, is indifference or ignorance.
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I’ll try not to take that personally 😦
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Naturally, you’re the exception, Me Williams
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I am relived to hear that
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