What makes you sure on the same basis, Paul, that Muhammed didn’t see an “angel of light” when he supposedly received revelation from Gabriel in the cave? Just saying 😉
“The Prophet (pbuh) in the early stages in Makkah, feared that the revelation experience was an evil touch preying upon him, playing with him mentally, upsetting his tranquillity and peace of mind. He was afraid that one of the jinn had touched him. He expressed this to Khadija. His fear increased to the point that – and please don’t be surprised by an authentic report in Bukhari – the Prophet (pbuh) preferred to take his own life rather than to be touched by evil, to be tampered with, corrupted, or polluted.” Shaykh Ahmad Zaki Hammad, Ph.D
This is a reasonable question for unbelievers. Quran and Sunnah both have dealt with thses kind of questions fairly, and here you can see another dimension of beauty in Islam.
The problem with unbleilvers that they think that the prophethood depends on one thing or just a claim, No!
There is a whole package inside & outside in the life of the prophet peace be up on him which approve that calim to be 100% true.
The first testimony is the prophet character. He was not known as liar man. He has always been known as truthful & trustworthy. When he -peace be upon him – returned from that cave to explain such an extraordinary experience, his wife with his knowledge about this man quickly knew that Allah would never disgrace such an honrable man. Moreover, the testimony given by the people of the book such as Abdullah ibn Salam, Waraq, and Nagashi( i.e the knig of Habashah) ( surah 13:43).
Heraclius by just his thoughts knew that the prophet pbuh was a truthful man when he asked Abu Suffian about him. Heraclius asked whether he was known by rtelling lies for people or not, then Abu Sufian answered : No.
Heraclius replied: a man who has never told a lie about people, then would never tell a lie about Allah. ( in Bukhari the rest of the story).
Also, put in your mind the message of the prophet pbuh itself, his miracles, the fulfilled prophecies he told, and the prophecies told in the previous books he fulfilled. All of this tell you that the one who appeared to the prophet peace be up on him is the angel Gabriel.
I’m telling you, there’s no man in the whole humanity claming the prophethood whom you can prove his prophethood by reasons & reasonable arguments such as the prophet peace be upon him.
10 In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia, a revelation was given to Daniel (who was called Belteshazzar). Its message was true and it concerned a great war.[a] The understanding of the message came to him in a vision.
2 At that time I, Daniel, mourned for three weeks. 3 I ate no choice food; no meat or wine touched my lips; and I used no lotions at all until the three weeks were over.
4 On the twenty-fourth day of the first month, as I was standing on the bank of the great river, the Tigris, 5 I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in linen, with a belt of fine gold from Uphaz around his waist. 6 His body was like topaz, his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude.
7 I, Daniel, was the only one who saw the vision; those who were with me did not see it, but such terror overwhelmed them that they fled and hid themselves. 8 So I was left alone, gazing at this great vision; I had no strength left, my face turned deathly pale and I was helpless. 9 Then I heard him speaking, and as I listened to him, I fell into a deep sleep, my face to the ground.
10 A hand touched me and set me trembling on my hands and knees. 11 He said, “Daniel, you who are highly esteemed, consider carefully the words I am about to speak to you, and stand up, for I have now been sent to you.” And when he said this to me, I stood up trembling.
12 Then he continued, “Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them. 13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia. 14 Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come.”
15 While he was saying this to me, I bowed with my face toward the ground and was speechless. 16 Then one who looked like a man[b] touched my lips, and I opened my mouth and began to speak. I said to the one standing before me, “I am overcome with anguish because of the vision, my lord, and I feel very weak. 17 How can I, your servant, talk with you, my lord? My strength is gone and I can hardly breathe.”
15 While I, Daniel, was watching the vision and trying to understand it, there before me stood one who looked like a man. 16 And I heard a man’s voice from the Ulai calling, “Gabriel, tell this man the meaning of the vision.”
17 As he came near the place where I was standing, I was terrified and fell prostrate. “Son of man,”[b] he said to me, “understand that the vision concerns the time of the end.”
you are a misionary that is motivated by hatred and lies.
Muhammad was very similar indeed to all the other prophets of the Hebrew Bible as countless people have acknowledged. Thats how as a Christian I came to recognise him as the real deal.
I doubt Muhammad planning on killing himself had anything to do with your conversion. You converted before even knowing anything about Islam. Now you try to defend sinfulness as virtue.
“What makes you sure on the same basis, Paul, that Muhammed didn’t see an “angel of light” when he supposedly received revelation from Gabriel in the cave?”
Mohammed’s first visitation is a huge problem for islam as far as I am concerned. No prophet anywhere in the bible when visited by angels or yahweh himself thought that they had experienced a malevolent being.
Of course, some became afraid, and some were unsure about what they had seen, but all by the end of the visit none were in any doubt about what they had seen or experienced – simply because yahweh and his messengers made known who they were. They didn’t leave it to some random guy to make the introductions for them.
In absolutely no situation were biblical prophets convinced that they had been visited by evil or malevolent beings.
There is an entirely different t context. God has sent many prophets to Israel it was a very familiar phenomenon. In Arabia they had no such experiences. On the contrary visitations were normally seen as malevolent.
Most Christians believe Mary was without sin too. Christians believe the angels in heaven are without sin.
Jesus denied he was good:
‘As he was setting out on a journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, ‘Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?’ 18 Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.’
I don’t see jesus denying anything in that quote – he does not say “I am not good” anywhere.
The problem you have is that the quran says that jesus is sinless – by definition, that makes him good. To deny that he was good is to deny the truth of the quran, so I’m not really seeing how this line of reasoning helps you.
As for Mary, I see haven’t found any verses that say she was sinless.
Regarding Mary, it is a fact the most Christians view her as sinless. You cannot deny that. Catholics don’t base their beliefs just on “verses” but much more. Go Google.
Do you now deny that angels are sinless? Are they gods too?
Jesus in Mark 10 denies he is good. Maybe historically he did not say this (we are not obliged to believe everything in the NT is accurate) but it is in your NT nevertheless.
I doubt that angels are sinless – it is certainly possible for them to sin, it is impossible for god to sin. Plus angels are created and part of fallen creation. That’s a deflection though that doesn’t help the muslim position.
If islam says that angels are sinless, then that makes allah unnecessary, and you have committed shirk.
I think we will have to agree to disagree on Mark 10 – I see no denial anywhere in that chapter or verse. A denial would clear, and there is no clear denial at all.
As for Mary, I’m not catholic so I don’t speak with authority. I think they say that she was conceived without sin not that she remained sinless.
The orthodox Christian position is that the unfallen angels did not sin and are sinless. It might be possible for them to sin yes, but Jesus might have sinned too being a man.
The Catholic view is that Mary remain sinless throughout her life. She is not considered to be God in Christian theology
Any theological position on angels is conjecture – and has little to do with jesus’ sinlessness. How god covenants with angels is not known, so the point is moot. Jesus’ sinless is unique and both the quran and bible make that clear, as it makes clear that only god is good and incapable of sin.
“There is an entirely different t context. God has sent many prophets to Israel it was a very familiar phenomenon. In Arabia they had no such experiences. On the contrary visitations were normally seen as malevolent.”
You mean that god can’t cross a human made cultural divide and distinguish himself from malevolent beings?
You have proven my point – jibril’s visitation was indistinguishable from malevolent encounters and that does not occur in the bible.
Jesus’ sinlessness is far from unique in the Christian Tradition (a subject which you appear to be blissfully ignorant of).You wrongly equate sinlessness exclusively with God.
Your points about Muhammad have already been refuted.
But it doesn’t matter, as your views are not important or interesting. 🙂
How do you know if Abraham, Moses, Jesus. or any of the messengers were not deceived? Jesus repeatedly he has been sent? How do you know he was not deluded? So when people raise this question ( and it is a reasonable) question about Muhammad’s experience, we need to analyze in a rational and reasonable manner, applying same criteria upon all such claims.
yeah paulus, can you prove jesus was not deceived?
quote:
Mark 13:22, Matthew 24:24, and 2 Thessalonians 2:9 say something very similar to Deuteronomy. Satan is powerful enough to produce all the counterfeit miracles Jesus would need to appear to complete his mission. Jesus wouldn’t even have to know it was Satan’s doing. So maybe we should treat Jesus with the same skepticism that Deuteronomy and other passages warn us about, lest we be deceived by a false messiah? Like
maybe when Jesus predicts the end of the world, and it doesn’t happen, we don’t try to wiggle out of it with unlikely definitions of words and ignoring the supporting verses.
quote:
and false prophets will appear and produce great signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
neil is already hearing ” i am he” from his current experience
quote:
The NT reinforces a sense of scepticism when revelation 13 and 2 Thessalonians both say that an imposter will come, say he is G-d, and lead people astray with miraculous signs.
Paulus it is VERY important to read the complete story. Here is the relevant narrative by Ibn Ishaq, the earliest biographer of Muhammad. Note the intervention by the angel Gabriel
What is your point? This doesn’t address the sinfulness of planning to kill yourself.
You want to try to hold onto the prophethood of Muhammad while simultaneously dismissing his sinfulness which in any other occasion you would accept. Who is the fundamentalist now?
Did you read the context? He understandably despaired for a moment before the angel reassured him. You have a black heart Paulus lacking in compassion and love.
Why should I follow your religion that judges others so harshly without mercy.
paulus, williams is right, you are a disgusting dark hearted hypocrite
quote:
The story that you have cited from Jesus about committing adultery in the heart does not actually identify that carnal behaviour as sinful. One can easily understand that Jesus is using figurative language as anyone with a working mind knows that by the standards of logic and language you cannot have sex in your heart. The most that can truly be discerned from the exhortation is that lusting after a woman is frowned upon. There is not a single verse from which you can absolutely infer that suicide is sinful. The point of the entire excercise is to show idiotic Christians such as yourself that there is no Biblical foundation for their self-righteous judgment upon the Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. with regards to the ‘”suicide hadith” in question. By vociferously condemning suicide the Christians are being very Islamic as it is something that is specifically prohibited only in Islam among the so called Abrahamic faiths and that is an undeniable fact. We have also cited in the article above a clear example of how Christians themselves can and have argued for the validity of suicide and euthanasia. As per the Islamic teaching even if the story were true it does not affect the the Prophet’s office nor does it have any bearing on his righteous character. Let’s read the following together:
“The negative view went virtually unchallenged until the 17th cent., when John Donne, the English cleric, wrote Biathanatos, in which he argued cogently for a positive view of suicide. Donne relied heavily on Jesus’ saying in Jn. 15:12f., “Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.” Even more explicit is 1 Jn. 3:16, “By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.”
Among other texts cited to support suicide in a broader sense are Mk. 8:34f.; Jn. 13:37; Rom. 5:7; 14:7f.; 2 Cor. 5:1; Phil. 1:21f… (Clemons, J. T. (1979). Suicide. In Geoffrey W. Bromiley, The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. p. 653)
I am a learned Christian telling you Muhammad is not a prophet. Will you accept my testimony as well, or are you only planning to stick to confirmation bias?
This is one of the most silliest bits of evidence you have produced.
You are a “learned Christian”? Wow you could have fooled me. Your comments never demonstrate any learning or insight. So I’ll disagree with you on that.
Psalm 94:4 : They pour out their arrogant words; all the evildoers boast.
James 4:16 : As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.
1 Peter 2:1 : So put away all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander.
Al ilm an nafe combined with “good” attitude is what leads people to truth. It helped Warqa and abdullah ibn salaam then and it helps people like Jerald Dirks now.
Paulus: James White is learned in Hebrew and the biblical tradition- will you also accept his conclusions about Muhammad?
Of course not. White is a contemporary white American evangelical whose Christianity is about as authentic as the Chinese food served in Panda Express. Waraqah was a sincere seeker of God and a learned man whose experience of the diversity of Judaism and Christianity in 7th century Arabia far exceeds anything than what some contemporary white guy living in the Bible belt has with an (unaccredited) institutional learning. He also knew Muhammad(saw) personally and had nothing to gain from validating the latter’s spiritual experience.
Paul , you are not as smart as I first thought. A bit arrogant as well. You never answer questions and yet you push others to answer yours. Paulus is right in saying that muhammad sinned, we all know it. Grow up
Jesus followed Satan and since following Satan is sin. So Jesus sinned! This is the gutter level of arguments that Paulus is using against Muhammed PBUH.
Personally, I don’t believe PW tries to avoid answering questions. I think it is that he is unable. He simply knows almost nothing about the faith he professes.
Paul spends 95% of his time studying biblical tradition and why it can’t be true, I.e liberal biblical scholarship. He appears to study very little Koranic scholarship. Thus, he can never actually answer questions about his faith. For example, in this post he was reluctant to discuss whether planning on killing oneself is sinful because he simply doesn’t know what Islam teaches on the matter, so he deflects. He doesn’t know how to explain tawheed. He doesn’t know if Allah has literal hands. Because he doesn’t read Islamic theology.
Paul’s religion is actually liberal biblical scholarship- that is where his heart lies. His acceptance of Islam just gives him the permission and encouragement to do so.
You have no idea what I read about Islam and Christianity. It is very silly to say of me ‘he can never actually answer questions about his faith.’ I do it all the time with a wide range of atheists and Christians and others. Just search youtube.
I do know how to ‘explain tawheed’ – I do it all the time.
‘he doesn’t read Islamic theology.’ How do you know? As a matter of fact I have and do.
So your comments are rubbish and motivated by spite and hatred. They reveal much about your heart.
I think Paul displays good understanding of Islamic Theology and knows that it clearly makes more rational sense than Christian Theology, and that is more than enough. He also seems to understand that in Islamic Tradition it is sometimes better to err on the side of caution and allow another more knowledgeable person to answer a hard to answer question, or seek accurate answers from the Islamic sources, rather than giving an answer that may be incorrect. This makes him a good purveyor of truthful information on both Christianity and Islam. Also Paul’s study of Biblical scholarship and tradition places him in a great position to answer Christian criticisms of Islam, and to teach Muslims how best to answer such criticisms, and that is something that is greatly needed and MUCH APPRECIATED!!
how could he be when He will be QUESTIONED BY GOD ?
And behold! Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah’?” He will say: “Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
4 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted[a] by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”
4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’[b]”
5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:
“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[c]”
7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’[d]”
8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’[e]”
11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.
Christians worship a man that was kidnapped by the devil, executed by Satan and cursed by God, according to the Torah. A man, whom Trinitarian scholars regard as one who knew nothing of the at Trinity and preached Unitarian Monotheism.
avi, this is an “empty god” who is being TEMPTED and at the same time it LOSES the power to PREVENT temptation, yet god can’t create SINLESS angels because that would be “shirk” LOL
paul, the christian god can lose his powers and become an “empty god” and create perfect “human nature” for himself, but he can’t create others sinless lol
this is the gutter level of christian thinking
god can create PERFECT meat for himself and BECOME perfect meat, but he can’t keep angels from sinning even though they are not created from meat substance.
if he keeps angels from sinning that would be “shirk”
brother paul, why do you even allow such comments to go through?
rational muslim said “gutter level” thinking of christians. i agree with him
“Mohammed’s first visitation is a huge problem for islam as far as I am concerned. No prophet anywhere in the bible when visited by angels or yahweh himself thought that they had experienced a malevolent being.”
at least muhammad was not blinded for 3 days and needed men to carry him away.
whatever evil entered into paul, he couldn’t see or eat
which prophet in the ot experienced what paul did?
“who are you lord?”
whoever this evil thing was , told paul to trash jewish torah with human sacrifice
can you show in the torah where yhwh said that he needs a MAN between him and man before he answers prayers????
Paulus, when Jesus was being tempted by the Devil, why did Jesus not hint at his self-divinity? Especially since he quoted scripture, which was legitimately interpreted as regarding the God of Israel being One Person? All you have to do is consult ANY of the encyclopedias to know. So why did he not clarify the Triune Being? Jesus said to the Devil
”Worship the Lord your God and serve HIM ONLY”
Why did Jesus identify the OUSIA as a singular ”who”? Why do I say that?
BECAUSE JESUS USED A SINGULAR PERSONAL PRONOUN BY REFERRING TO GOD AS A ”HIM” THUS INTETPRETING IT FOR US BY LABELING THE IDENTITY AS A WHO AND NOT A WHAT!!! A subtle, but important observation.
Jesus interpreted the commandment for us, by utilizing the language, to explain. We can know what he meant. He was certainly silent on the Trinity, thus weakening your claims. And then he quotes scriptures indicating HOW HE INTERPRETS THEM, FURTHER DESTROYING YOUR CLAIMS! Then comes historians and scholars further supporting the truth by proclaiming
”Jesus rejected the Trinity by affirming that which negated it, Unitarianism”
Blogging Theology 
“20 years ago as a ….”
no neil, you just found your racist hatred again.
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What makes you sure on the same basis, Paul, that Muhammed didn’t see an “angel of light” when he supposedly received revelation from Gabriel in the cave? Just saying 😉
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If I’m not mistaken, the angel Gabriel first appeared to Muhammad(saw) not as a being of light but as a man.
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Could you cite your evidence?
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I read it somewhere that I don’t exactly recall.
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“The Prophet (pbuh) in the early stages in Makkah, feared that the revelation experience was an evil touch preying upon him, playing with him mentally, upsetting his tranquillity and peace of mind. He was afraid that one of the jinn had touched him. He expressed this to Khadija. His fear increased to the point that – and please don’t be surprised by an authentic report in Bukhari – the Prophet (pbuh) preferred to take his own life rather than to be touched by evil, to be tampered with, corrupted, or polluted.” Shaykh Ahmad Zaki Hammad, Ph.D
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Paul, this might be of help:
https://books.google.com/books?id=xUu04ozMXOcC&pg=PA189&lpg=PA189&dq=gabriel+appeared+as+a+man+recite&source=bl&ots=9KvA6u-kP0&sig=uRu-vFieNmnqgYf9PFYAXUJjIcY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj7jNrV2bPRAhXMRiYKHegfChQQ6AEIMzAD#v=onepage&q=gabriel%20appeared%20as%20a%20man%20recite&f=false
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This is a reasonable question for unbelievers. Quran and Sunnah both have dealt with thses kind of questions fairly, and here you can see another dimension of beauty in Islam.
The problem with unbleilvers that they think that the prophethood depends on one thing or just a claim, No!
There is a whole package inside & outside in the life of the prophet peace be up on him which approve that calim to be 100% true.
The first testimony is the prophet character. He was not known as liar man. He has always been known as truthful & trustworthy. When he -peace be upon him – returned from that cave to explain such an extraordinary experience, his wife with his knowledge about this man quickly knew that Allah would never disgrace such an honrable man. Moreover, the testimony given by the people of the book such as Abdullah ibn Salam, Waraq, and Nagashi( i.e the knig of Habashah) ( surah 13:43).
Heraclius by just his thoughts knew that the prophet pbuh was a truthful man when he asked Abu Suffian about him. Heraclius asked whether he was known by rtelling lies for people or not, then Abu Sufian answered : No.
Heraclius replied: a man who has never told a lie about people, then would never tell a lie about Allah. ( in Bukhari the rest of the story).
Also, put in your mind the message of the prophet pbuh itself, his miracles, the fulfilled prophecies he told, and the prophecies told in the previous books he fulfilled. All of this tell you that the one who appeared to the prophet peace be up on him is the angel Gabriel.
I’m telling you, there’s no man in the whole humanity claming the prophethood whom you can prove his prophethood by reasons & reasonable arguments such as the prophet peace be upon him.
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Hello Paulus
Daniel 10
10 In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia, a revelation was given to Daniel (who was called Belteshazzar). Its message was true and it concerned a great war.[a] The understanding of the message came to him in a vision.
2 At that time I, Daniel, mourned for three weeks. 3 I ate no choice food; no meat or wine touched my lips; and I used no lotions at all until the three weeks were over.
4 On the twenty-fourth day of the first month, as I was standing on the bank of the great river, the Tigris, 5 I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in linen, with a belt of fine gold from Uphaz around his waist. 6 His body was like topaz, his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude.
7 I, Daniel, was the only one who saw the vision; those who were with me did not see it, but such terror overwhelmed them that they fled and hid themselves. 8 So I was left alone, gazing at this great vision; I had no strength left, my face turned deathly pale and I was helpless. 9 Then I heard him speaking, and as I listened to him, I fell into a deep sleep, my face to the ground.
10 A hand touched me and set me trembling on my hands and knees. 11 He said, “Daniel, you who are highly esteemed, consider carefully the words I am about to speak to you, and stand up, for I have now been sent to you.” And when he said this to me, I stood up trembling.
12 Then he continued, “Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them. 13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia. 14 Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come.”
15 While he was saying this to me, I bowed with my face toward the ground and was speechless. 16 Then one who looked like a man[b] touched my lips, and I opened my mouth and began to speak. I said to the one standing before me, “I am overcome with anguish because of the vision, my lord, and I feel very weak. 17 How can I, your servant, talk with you, my lord? My strength is gone and I can hardly breathe.”
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Daniel 8
15 While I, Daniel, was watching the vision and trying to understand it, there before me stood one who looked like a man. 16 And I heard a man’s voice from the Ulai calling, “Gabriel, tell this man the meaning of the vision.”
17 As he came near the place where I was standing, I was terrified and fell prostrate. “Son of man,”[b] he said to me, “understand that the vision concerns the time of the end.”
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Hello Oma,
I don’t see any cited text that Daniel considered suicide. Do you disagree with the sheikh? Was Muhammad sinful for considering killing himself?
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In the circumstances it was understandable.
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But was it sinful?
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i don’t think so. Why do you care?
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Just interested to know how Muslims understand the issue. To clarify, you are saying that planning to take ones own life is not sinful?
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no i’m not saying that. But the unique and extraordinary circumstances of the occasion make all the difference.
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Very confusing Paul. Why don’t you just admit that Muhammad sinned, rather than trying to defend the occasion. He was unlike all other prophets.
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you are a misionary that is motivated by hatred and lies.
Muhammad was very similar indeed to all the other prophets of the Hebrew Bible as countless people have acknowledged. Thats how as a Christian I came to recognise him as the real deal.
Also see the full narrative from Ibn Ishaq below
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I doubt Muhammad planning on killing himself had anything to do with your conversion. You converted before even knowing anything about Islam. Now you try to defend sinfulness as virtue.
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You remind me of a typical Pharisee always judging others harshly and not looking to your own faults.
You lack compassion and mercy. I see no evidence you are a follower of Jesus at all. You do not know him.
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Steve Cleary
“What makes you sure on the same basis, Paul, that Muhammed didn’t see an “angel of light” when he supposedly received revelation from Gabriel in the cave?”
Mohammed’s first visitation is a huge problem for islam as far as I am concerned. No prophet anywhere in the bible when visited by angels or yahweh himself thought that they had experienced a malevolent being.
Of course, some became afraid, and some were unsure about what they had seen, but all by the end of the visit none were in any doubt about what they had seen or experienced – simply because yahweh and his messengers made known who they were. They didn’t leave it to some random guy to make the introductions for them.
In absolutely no situation were biblical prophets convinced that they had been visited by evil or malevolent beings.
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There is an entirely different t context. God has sent many prophets to Israel it was a very familiar phenomenon. In Arabia they had no such experiences. On the contrary visitations were normally seen as malevolent.
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Paulus
“Very confusing Paul. Why don’t you just admit that Muhammad sinned, rather than trying to defend the occasion. He was unlike all other prophets.”
Mohammed sinned – the quran is clear about that. The quran is also clear that jesus dis not sin, unlike any prophet or human being in history. \
Only god is without sin, only god is good.
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“Only god is without sin, only god is good.”
Most Christians believe Mary was without sin too. Christians believe the angels in heaven are without sin.
Jesus denied he was good:
‘As he was setting out on a journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, ‘Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?’ 18 Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.’
Mark 10
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Paul
I don’t see jesus denying anything in that quote – he does not say “I am not good” anywhere.
The problem you have is that the quran says that jesus is sinless – by definition, that makes him good. To deny that he was good is to deny the truth of the quran, so I’m not really seeing how this line of reasoning helps you.
As for Mary, I see haven’t found any verses that say she was sinless.
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Regarding Mary, it is a fact the most Christians view her as sinless. You cannot deny that. Catholics don’t base their beliefs just on “verses” but much more. Go Google.
Do you now deny that angels are sinless? Are they gods too?
Jesus in Mark 10 denies he is good. Maybe historically he did not say this (we are not obliged to believe everything in the NT is accurate) but it is in your NT nevertheless.
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Paul
I doubt that angels are sinless – it is certainly possible for them to sin, it is impossible for god to sin. Plus angels are created and part of fallen creation. That’s a deflection though that doesn’t help the muslim position.
If islam says that angels are sinless, then that makes allah unnecessary, and you have committed shirk.
I think we will have to agree to disagree on Mark 10 – I see no denial anywhere in that chapter or verse. A denial would clear, and there is no clear denial at all.
As for Mary, I’m not catholic so I don’t speak with authority. I think they say that she was conceived without sin not that she remained sinless.
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The orthodox Christian position is that the unfallen angels did not sin and are sinless. It might be possible for them to sin yes, but Jesus might have sinned too being a man.
The Catholic view is that Mary remain sinless throughout her life. She is not considered to be God in Christian theology
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Paul
Any theological position on angels is conjecture – and has little to do with jesus’ sinlessness. How god covenants with angels is not known, so the point is moot. Jesus’ sinless is unique and both the quran and bible make that clear, as it makes clear that only god is good and incapable of sin.
“There is an entirely different t context. God has sent many prophets to Israel it was a very familiar phenomenon. In Arabia they had no such experiences. On the contrary visitations were normally seen as malevolent.”
You mean that god can’t cross a human made cultural divide and distinguish himself from malevolent beings?
You have proven my point – jibril’s visitation was indistinguishable from malevolent encounters and that does not occur in the bible.
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Jesus’ sinlessness is far from unique in the Christian Tradition (a subject which you appear to be blissfully ignorant of).You wrongly equate sinlessness exclusively with God.
Your points about Muhammad have already been refuted.
But it doesn’t matter, as your views are not important or interesting. 🙂
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LOL a cry baby
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kev, your pathetic puny pagan god was making that cry baby face when he wanted breast milk
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How do you know if Abraham, Moses, Jesus. or any of the messengers were not deceived? Jesus repeatedly he has been sent? How do you know he was not deluded? So when people raise this question ( and it is a reasonable) question about Muhammad’s experience, we need to analyze in a rational and reasonable manner, applying same criteria upon all such claims.
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yeah paulus, can you prove jesus was not deceived?
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Mark 13:22, Matthew 24:24, and 2 Thessalonians 2:9 say something very similar to Deuteronomy. Satan is powerful enough to produce all the counterfeit miracles Jesus would need to appear to complete his mission. Jesus wouldn’t even have to know it was Satan’s doing. So maybe we should treat Jesus with the same skepticism that Deuteronomy and other passages warn us about, lest we be deceived by a false messiah? Like
maybe when Jesus predicts the end of the world, and it doesn’t happen, we don’t try to wiggle out of it with unlikely definitions of words and ignoring the supporting verses.
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and false prophets will appear and produce great signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
neil is already hearing ” i am he” from his current experience
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The NT reinforces a sense of scepticism when revelation 13 and 2 Thessalonians both say that an imposter will come, say he is G-d, and lead people astray with miraculous signs.
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How can I prove a negative? #logicfail
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Paulus it is VERY important to read the complete story. Here is the relevant narrative by Ibn Ishaq, the earliest biographer of Muhammad. Note the intervention by the angel Gabriel
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What is your point? This doesn’t address the sinfulness of planning to kill yourself.
You want to try to hold onto the prophethood of Muhammad while simultaneously dismissing his sinfulness which in any other occasion you would accept. Who is the fundamentalist now?
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Did you read the context? He understandably despaired for a moment before the angel reassured him. You have a black heart Paulus lacking in compassion and love.
Why should I follow your religion that judges others so harshly without mercy.
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You are dodging. If it is sinful to plan and kill yourself, then Muhammad sinned. Correct?
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We have already been over this ground before. Like I said you have the heart of a Pharisee not of a follower of Christ.
Muhammad was certainly not sinful. But I suggest you are.
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“You are dodging. If it is sinful to plan and kill yourself, then Muhammad sinned. Correct?”
the report about suicide is discussed here
http://unveiling-christianity.net/2013/04/03/prophet-muhammad-intend-commit-suicide/
even if the report is true for argument sake, contemplating to take your own life is not sinful if the action was not done.
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Per Deuteronomy 18, one way we are given to identify prophets is if they give a sign and it comes to pass
when deut 18 was written by the author, where did the author think that the signs would take 2500 years before it came to pass?
by now, shouldn’t you have already dropped jesus and accepted that he is a false “messiah” ?
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paulus, williams is right, you are a disgusting dark hearted hypocrite
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The story that you have cited from Jesus about committing adultery in the heart does not actually identify that carnal behaviour as sinful. One can easily understand that Jesus is using figurative language as anyone with a working mind knows that by the standards of logic and language you cannot have sex in your heart. The most that can truly be discerned from the exhortation is that lusting after a woman is frowned upon. There is not a single verse from which you can absolutely infer that suicide is sinful. The point of the entire excercise is to show idiotic Christians such as yourself that there is no Biblical foundation for their self-righteous judgment upon the Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. with regards to the ‘”suicide hadith” in question. By vociferously condemning suicide the Christians are being very Islamic as it is something that is specifically prohibited only in Islam among the so called Abrahamic faiths and that is an undeniable fact. We have also cited in the article above a clear example of how Christians themselves can and have argued for the validity of suicide and euthanasia. As per the Islamic teaching even if the story were true it does not affect the the Prophet’s office nor does it have any bearing on his righteous character. Let’s read the following together:
“The negative view went virtually unchallenged until the 17th cent., when John Donne, the English cleric, wrote Biathanatos, in which he argued cogently for a positive view of suicide. Donne relied heavily on Jesus’ saying in Jn. 15:12f., “Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.” Even more explicit is 1 Jn. 3:16, “By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.”
Among other texts cited to support suicide in a broader sense are Mk. 8:34f.; Jn. 13:37; Rom. 5:7; 14:7f.; 2 Cor. 5:1; Phil. 1:21f… (Clemons, J. T. (1979). Suicide. In Geoffrey W. Bromiley, The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. p. 653)
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Note also how a learned Christian reassures Muhammad that he is truly the recipient of God’s Revelation
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I am a learned Christian telling you Muhammad is not a prophet. Will you accept my testimony as well, or are you only planning to stick to confirmation bias?
This is one of the most silliest bits of evidence you have produced.
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You are a “learned Christian”? Wow you could have fooled me. Your comments never demonstrate any learning or insight. So I’ll disagree with you on that.
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Pray tell then, what makes Waraqa a learned Christian? Did you sit down and have a pot of tea together and come to that conclusion?
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Paulus: Pray tell then, what makes Waraqa a learned Christian?
He was learned in Hebrew and the biblical tradition. Also, he wasn’t a random Islamophobic jerk on the internet.
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@Paulus “I am a learned Christian”
Psalm 94:4 : They pour out their arrogant words; all the evildoers boast.
James 4:16 : As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.
1 Peter 2:1 : So put away all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander.
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Kmak,
James White is learned in Hebrew and the biblical tradition- will you also accept his conclusions about Muhammad?
I can’t believe you guys think such reasoning is persuasive
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@Paulus
Not everyone who is learned necessarily follows truth? How many teachers of law followed Jesus even when truth became clear to them?
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Al ilm an nafe combined with “good” attitude is what leads people to truth. It helped Warqa and abdullah ibn salaam then and it helps people like Jerald Dirks now.
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Paulus: James White is learned in Hebrew and the biblical tradition- will you also accept his conclusions about Muhammad?
Of course not. White is a contemporary white American evangelical whose Christianity is about as authentic as the Chinese food served in Panda Express. Waraqah was a sincere seeker of God and a learned man whose experience of the diversity of Judaism and Christianity in 7th century Arabia far exceeds anything than what some contemporary white guy living in the Bible belt has with an (unaccredited) institutional learning. He also knew Muhammad(saw) personally and had nothing to gain from validating the latter’s spiritual experience.
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Kmak, I guess you don’t like “white” guys. Strange that you need to reference ethnicity in your disparaging comment. #racist
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there is nothing in the bible which prohibits suicide.
http://ehrmanblog.org/paul-contemplating-suicide-members/
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Sampson was the first mass murdering terrorist
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Paul , you are not as smart as I first thought. A bit arrogant as well. You never answer questions and yet you push others to answer yours. Paulus is right in saying that muhammad sinned, we all know it. Grow up
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Jesus followed Satan and since following Satan is sin. So Jesus sinned! This is the gutter level of arguments that Paulus is using against Muhammed PBUH.
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Personally, I don’t believe PW tries to avoid answering questions. I think it is that he is unable. He simply knows almost nothing about the faith he professes.
Paul spends 95% of his time studying biblical tradition and why it can’t be true, I.e liberal biblical scholarship. He appears to study very little Koranic scholarship. Thus, he can never actually answer questions about his faith. For example, in this post he was reluctant to discuss whether planning on killing oneself is sinful because he simply doesn’t know what Islam teaches on the matter, so he deflects. He doesn’t know how to explain tawheed. He doesn’t know if Allah has literal hands. Because he doesn’t read Islamic theology.
Paul’s religion is actually liberal biblical scholarship- that is where his heart lies. His acceptance of Islam just gives him the permission and encouragement to do so.
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You have no idea what I read about Islam and Christianity. It is very silly to say of me ‘he can never actually answer questions about his faith.’ I do it all the time with a wide range of atheists and Christians and others. Just search youtube.
I do know how to ‘explain tawheed’ – I do it all the time.
‘he doesn’t read Islamic theology.’ How do you know? As a matter of fact I have and do.
So your comments are rubbish and motivated by spite and hatred. They reveal much about your heart.
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I think Paul displays good understanding of Islamic Theology and knows that it clearly makes more rational sense than Christian Theology, and that is more than enough. He also seems to understand that in Islamic Tradition it is sometimes better to err on the side of caution and allow another more knowledgeable person to answer a hard to answer question, or seek accurate answers from the Islamic sources, rather than giving an answer that may be incorrect. This makes him a good purveyor of truthful information on both Christianity and Islam. Also Paul’s study of Biblical scholarship and tradition places him in a great position to answer Christian criticisms of Islam, and to teach Muslims how best to answer such criticisms, and that is something that is greatly needed and MUCH APPRECIATED!!
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Paul, it is my observation. You happily quote, discuss, promote liberal Christian tradition, but rarely do the same for Islamic thought.
And by your reaction I think I was on the money- it just hurts for you to admit such
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Oh well. I am not accountable to you. It doesn’t matter what you think.
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how could he be when He will be QUESTIONED BY GOD ?
And behold! Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah’?” He will say: “Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
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Jesus Is Tested in the Wilderness Mathew 4: 1-11
4 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted[a] by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”
4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’[b]”
5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:
“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[c]”
7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’[d]”
8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’[e]”
11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.
Christians worship a man that was kidnapped by the devil, executed by Satan and cursed by God, according to the Torah. A man, whom Trinitarian scholars regard as one who knew nothing of the at Trinity and preached Unitarian Monotheism.
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avi, this is an “empty god” who is being TEMPTED and at the same time it LOSES the power to PREVENT temptation, yet god can’t create SINLESS angels because that would be “shirk” LOL
what is this?
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“Christians worship a man that was kidnapped by the devil,”
I guess you didn’t read carefully the citation you gave?
“Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness…”
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paul, the christian god can lose his powers and become an “empty god” and create perfect “human nature” for himself, but he can’t create others sinless lol
this is the gutter level of christian thinking
god can create PERFECT meat for himself and BECOME perfect meat, but he can’t keep angels from sinning even though they are not created from meat substance.
if he keeps angels from sinning that would be “shirk”
brother paul, why do you even allow such comments to go through?
rational muslim said “gutter level” thinking of christians. i agree with him
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they definitely divinize the human nature
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“Mohammed’s first visitation is a huge problem for islam as far as I am concerned. No prophet anywhere in the bible when visited by angels or yahweh himself thought that they had experienced a malevolent being.”
at least muhammad was not blinded for 3 days and needed men to carry him away.
whatever evil entered into paul, he couldn’t see or eat
which prophet in the ot experienced what paul did?
“who are you lord?”
whoever this evil thing was , told paul to trash jewish torah with human sacrifice
can you show in the torah where yhwh said that he needs a MAN between him and man before he answers prayers????
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can you show in the jewish torah where yhwh says man needs a bloody crucified man to have a chat with yhwh?
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Good points!
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Paulus, when Jesus was being tempted by the Devil, why did Jesus not hint at his self-divinity? Especially since he quoted scripture, which was legitimately interpreted as regarding the God of Israel being One Person? All you have to do is consult ANY of the encyclopedias to know. So why did he not clarify the Triune Being? Jesus said to the Devil
”Worship the Lord your God and serve HIM ONLY”
Why did Jesus identify the OUSIA as a singular ”who”? Why do I say that?
BECAUSE JESUS USED A SINGULAR PERSONAL PRONOUN BY REFERRING TO GOD AS A ”HIM” THUS INTETPRETING IT FOR US BY LABELING THE IDENTITY AS A WHO AND NOT A WHAT!!! A subtle, but important observation.
Jesus interpreted the commandment for us, by utilizing the language, to explain. We can know what he meant. He was certainly silent on the Trinity, thus weakening your claims. And then he quotes scriptures indicating HOW HE INTERPRETS THEM, FURTHER DESTROYING YOUR CLAIMS! Then comes historians and scholars further supporting the truth by proclaiming
”Jesus rejected the Trinity by affirming that which negated it, Unitarianism”
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