I recently purchased this book in the airport on my way back from holiday. The title looks interesting and the author is a Royal Military College of Canada professor. As opposed to standard islamophobia narrative that only Islam and Prophet Muhammad is conducive to violent resistances Professor Gabriel contends that the founders other “great religions” —Judaism, Buddhism —were also accustomed to resorting to violent resistances in battlefield.
I know that Moses is the prophet like Muhammad commanding their men in the battlefield however I never know that even Buddha had ever fought wars.. in fact many of them. So this book should correct understanding on the role of men of God as natural military leaders. My position is always that all God’s men were in fact divinely mandated to resort to arm resistance for God’s cause. Even this can be said to Jesus as well. He was a leader of armed resistance to occupying Roman force albeit not a successful one. This can be traced from a few of gospel narrations.
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interesting, thanks!
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Off topic, I don’t like the idea that Islam is presented by the (crescent & star) symbol.
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Yeah, it dont have any basis from Islam. It might be since the Ottoman adopted it as their symbol it just stuck there with Islam..
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Yeah, Karen Armstrong says the crescent was adopted upon the conquest of Constantinople.
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There is a glaring difference between mohammed’s war-mongering and the wars of moses – no one is commanded to view the actions of moses as good examples for all time.
As for the buddha, I’m curious how much “reframing of the narrative” was necessary to remold him into a violent warrior. And jesus led an armed resistance group? Sorry, but, LOL!
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Wait for the last laugh. When lovey dovey J. the Mac returns blood drenched with a sword coming out of his mouth. Slaughtering indiscriminately. I wonder why Hollywood hasn’t picked up on it yet. Not funny.
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I have the impression you dont read your bible well. Here what it says in exo 15:3:
יְהוָ֖ה אִ֣ישׁ מִלְחָמָ֑ה יְהוָ֖ה שְׁמֹֽו adonai eish milchamah adonai semow: God is a man of WAR!
Oh and by the way do you really think jsus asked his legion to carry swords for partying?? I dont think so, he prepared to fight the romans.
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*Glaring* difference? I’m wearing my polarized Ray-Bans, so maybe I missed it… maybe you could expound?
😎
Time to present your biased, half-baked version of Islamic history (or fully-baked missionary propaganda, whichever you prefer).
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Kev… very foolish to pass erroneous judgement on Muhammad’s 23 year ministry and the circumstances he faced by comparing Jesus’ 1-3 year ministry and his circumstances… they lived in different social cultural settings facing different challenges that required different approaches to resolving tough issues…. im certain that if Jesus taught to turn the other cheek in Muhammad’s circumstances dealing with the pagans… Jesus and his followers would have been annihilated ceasing to exist with his message lost forever…
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“And jesus led an armed resistance group? Sorry, but, LOL!”
https://www.academia.edu/10232441/_Jesus_and_the_Anti-Roman_Resistance._A_Reassessment_of_the_Arguments_Journal_for_the_Study_of_the_Historical_Jesus_12_2014_1-105
this might make you cry for a week.
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Eric
“God is a man of war”
Good point – but the significance flies over your head. God is a (figurative) man of war, not man, and we are not called to emulate that.
Abu
I don’t see what you found so hard to understand – it’s simple. Jews and christians are not called to emulate moses, nor to view his behaviour as an example for all time. This means any calling that he had to wage war was between him and god. Muslims are commanded to view mohammed’s violence as an example for all time.
I can’t say it any more clearly than that.
Omar
Mohammed’s cultural setting is irrelevant – the quran commands that you take mohammed’s behaviour as an example for all time.
BUrhanuddin
Where does it say jesus’ return when he is revealed in his full divine glory will “kill indiscriminately”
Jesus is god, god administers justice and judges, jesus returns and judges those who have not repented. God can do whatever he wants – the key here is that I am not called to kill in his namenor am I called to emulate biblical violence.
Mohamed was a mere human being who engaged in violence – no true god would command humanity to follow his example.
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“God is a man of war”
//Good point – but the significance flies over your head. God is a (figurative) man of war, not man, and we are not called to emulate that.//
Not only that you are called to emulate that your bible emphatically stress that you are the very tool god uses to war against the unbelievers:
“You are my war club, my weapon for battle– with you I shatter nations, with you I destroy kingdoms, (Jer 51:20)
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“When lovey dovey J. the Mac returns blood drenched with a sword coming out of his mouth. Slaughtering indiscriminately. I wonder why Hollywood hasn’t picked up on it yet. Not funny.”
that was suppose to take place in the high priests life time. when deut gives its test , then i am sure the signs was not imagined to take place 2500 + years later. those angels did not come. the pagans destroyed jerusalem. the christians tried to hurry back jesus’ return by adopting pagan practices and killing of native populations and try to reactualize failed biblical prophecies , but it still proves that the christian god is a false prophet.
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mr heathcliff
Make a point.
From the article…..
Although the hypothesis according to which Jesus the Galilean was involved in anti-Roman, rebellious thinking and activity has been advanced since the eigh-teenth century, it is now held only by a minority of New Testament scholars.
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Minority does not mean wrong. Thats what the paper persuasively evaluates that Jesus was very much involved in SEDITIOUS activities against the romans. In other words Jesus was a leader of arm resistance to rebel against Rome.
quote :
” In fact, most reconstructions of Jesus, however seemingly sophisticated and erudite, by overlooking his seditious dimension offer a drastically DISTORTED image of him. On the other hand, the rejection of the existence of violence in Jesus’ words and deeds performs a sort of violence of its own in the hermeneutical realm.”
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“Mohammed’s cultural setting is irrelevant – the quran commands that you take mohammed’s behaviour as an example for all time.”
wrong Kev …It is relevant when passing foolish judgement on Muhammad p when comparing him to Jesus p
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Kev according to your bogus trinitarian christology the preexisting son of god that temporarily became Jesus the man commanded Moses to emulate biblical violence.and killings lol…
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“im certain that if Jesus taught to turn the other cheek in Muhammad’s circumstances dealing with the pagans… Jesus and his followers would have been annihilated ceasing to exist with his message lost forever…”
the thing is that jesus did not turn the other cheek. he was clearly anti-roman and thought that god would intervene in his time and help him take out the pagans.
when the jews are giving testimony against jesus, why was it convenient for each gospel writer not to narrate the charge / talk about how jesus told his pals to arm themselves?
why did not the news reach pilate that jesus was the one who gave the command to ARM oneself ?
would pilate have bought into the excuse ” i was fulfilling prophecy” or would he have handed jesus to be crucified upside down?
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The birds are called, Kevy
“…and I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”
Yummy, that’s what your “true god” commands. Come off your high horse, arrogant hate monger.
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kev, it is 2500 + years and something has postponed your false god. lets just say that he came and done his terroristic activities by killing of all the disbelievers , what if there is a delay of day of judgement for 2500 years +
will you be writing articles on how much of a terrorist jesus is ?
if it could take 2500 years to full fill second coming prophecy, then maybe the coming of day of judgement would also take a long time after all the bloodshed
will you write out about jihadi jesus?
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ALL OF THE WARS HE LED WERE DEFENSIVE, DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT? Firstly, the Prophet ﷺ never forced anyone to believe, and there is simply no recorded case of the Prophet ﷺ coercing someone to become a Muslim, as Ibn Qayyim says:
——
“The Prophet never forced the religion upon anyone, but rather he only fought those who waged war against him and fought him first. As for those who made peace with him or conducted a truce, then he never fought them and he never compelled them to enter his religion, as his Lord the Almighty had commanded him: ‘There is no compulsion in religion, for right guidance is distinct from error’ (Qurʾān – 2:256). The negation in the verse carries the meaning of prohibition, namely, you may not force your religion upon anyone.”
——
Secondly, all of the battles he ﷺ led were defensive, let us quote here al-Dawoody’s summary:
——
As pointed out above, Badr, Uhud, and the Ditch were defensive engagements against offensive attacks on the Muslims in Badr and Medina by the Quraysh and a number of other clans who joined in the attack at the battle of the Ditch. The exiled Jews of Nadīr were behind the mobilization of several other clans in this attack and offered as an inducement “half the date harvest of Khaybar … to B. Ghatafān if they would join in the attack.” Qurayzah should not be considered an act of war as it was the implementation of the arbitration against the traitors at the battle of the Ditch. Al-Mustaliq was a response to an attack already in progress. As for Khaybar, it is significant that, first, Khaybar numbered ten thousand while the Muslims numbered about three thousand. Second, it ended in an agreement that Khaybar were to pay half the produce of their lands. Watt explains that the reason for this incident was Khaybar’s “use of their wealth to induce the neighbouring Arabs and especially the strong tribe of Ghatafān to join them against the Muslims.” Hence, the aim of the Prophet’s march to Khaybar was to put an end to their hostility after they had violated the Constitution of Medina. Accepting Islam or making this payment signifies peaceful coexistence and recognition of the authority of the state system stipulated in the Constitution of Medina. As for Fath Mecca, as stated above, the Prophet’s march to Mecca with at least ten thousand men from the Arab tribes, was a successful, popular, bloodless attempt to take control of his home city of Mecca after eight years in exile. The Prophet confirmed to the huge crowd accompanying him that their march was a peaceful one and no fighting was to take place and no fighting did in fact ensue between the two parties, although Khālid ibn al-Walīd fought in self-defence when arrows were shot at him as he was destroying an idol. Hunayn and al-Ta’if are two incidents of fighting with the clans of Hawāzin and Thaqīf that took place when they marched to Hunayn to fight the Prophet after he took control in Mecca. This study thus finds that the Muslims’ engagements in all these hostilities during the Prophet’s lifetime were defensive. […] Moreover, the cases of the Jews of Banū Qaynuqā‛ who fought alongside the Prophet after Badr, the Jewish Rabbi who fought and called upon his fellow Jews to fight alongside the Prophet against the attack by the Quraysh at the battle of Uhud, the group of Jews who fought with the Prophet and received a share of the war spoils, and the many idolaters who fought with the Prophet at Hunayn and al-Tā’if, are all examples that mitigate against the idea that these were wars fought for the spread of a certain religion. On the basis of these incidents, most of the classical Muslim jurists advocated that it was permissible for polytheists to fight alongside the Muslims against the dār al-harb.
War in Islamic Law: Justifications and Regulations, pp. 38-39.
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Eric
“Not only that you are called to emulate that your bible emphatically stress that you are the very tool god uses to war against the unbelievers:”
Rubbish and you know it. No jew or christian is commanded to emulate the histories of the OT – you’re making stuff up because you can’t defend your position. The proof is that you have to attempt to prove that other religions are violent in order to make islam look less so.
“Minority does not mean wrong. Thats what the paper persuasively evaluates that Jesus was very much involved in SEDITIOUS activities against the romans. In other words Jesus was a leader of arm resistance to rebel against Rome.”
Strange. The actual text of the bible proves that jesus was not a rebel – he explicitly stated that ceasar was to be obeyed and at his trial, Pilate could find no guilt in him. Again, you have to try and make jesus look like a violent criminal in order to make mere human being mohammed look good. Don;t you see the problem here? Mohammed’s goodness is not self-evident, meaning that it is not evident at all.
Omer
“wrong Kev …It is relevant when passing foolish judgement on Muhammad p when comparing him to Jesus p”
It is relevant only in so much as it presents muslims with a problem – you are commanded to emulate mohammed, and here you admit that his actions were only appropriate for the culture of his time. In other words, you are commanded to emulate 7th century ethics and behaviour in the early 21st century when the average high school graduate knows more about how the universe works than mohammed ever did.
Burhanuddin
“Yummy, that’s what your “true god” commands. Come off your high horse, arrogant hate monger.”
I don;t see the point in your rant. ???
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“Not only that you are called to emulate that your bible emphatically stress that you are the very tool god uses to war against the unbelievers:”
//Rubbish and you know it. No jew or christian is commanded to emulate the histories of the OT//
Strange. How can I make stuff up. I only quote *your* scripture. The apparent meaning is crystal clear that you are the instrument for God’s war against the unbelievers.
“You are my war club, my weapon for battle– with you I shatter nations, with you I destroy kingdoms”
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Eric
Where is the command to emulate? Try harder.
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The verses is clear that god as your Commander-in-Chief, makes you fight in his battles as you are his battle axes and weapons of war.
Think harder.
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Eric
I had presumed that I wouldn’t have to point out that the verse is part of a passage speaking specifically about circumstances taking place at that time in and around the city of Babylon. There is no command to emulate this – you’re just plain wrong and dishonest.
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Even if “GOD WANT YOU TO BE A BATTLE AXE” means sometime in history, it does not mean it was wrong to fight god’s war was it not? god was a man of war then but now he repents?? still I dont find the central context of text in Jer 51 agrees with your understanding. I dont think that fighting for god’s cause and destroying the kingdom of darkness/ demonic agents only relevant and binding then but no longer now..
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“The actual text of the bible proves that jesus was not a rebel – he explicitly stated that ceasar was to be obeyed and at his trial, Pilate could find no guilt in him”
your jesus was a terrorist according to the bible. bermudio argues that the gospel writers have tried to cover up the terrorist jesus. your jesus clearly was imperialistic terrorist who thought that the KINGDOM of god would replace the pagan rule with toratic rule.
quote :
The preaching of the imminent arrival of the Kingdom of God had an unmistakably political character. The establishment of God’s will ‘on earth’ (Mt. 6.10/Lk. 11.2) would leave no place for the Roman rule, as it entails the longing for an approaching national deliverance
quote :
Jesus promised that his twelve disciples would sit on thrones to judge and rule Israel’s twelve restored tribes, what implies the disappearance of the actual rulers of Israel, both Romans and Jews.
the second quote is interesting because it implies that your terrorist jesus did not know anything about judas’ betrayal and thought that judas would be rewarded just like the others.
“kingdom of god” was WELL known the be GODS RULE ON EARTH
and biblical prophets USED torah to ESTABLISH gods RULE on earth
quote :
Several sayings attributed to Jesus, with an early ring about them (the dis-paraging words addressed to the Syro-phoenician woman in Mk 7.26–27, and the passages reecting a low esteem of—even contempt for—pagan people: Mt. 10.5; 15.24; 18.17) reveal the circumscription of Jesus’ preaching to Israel and his nationalistic, not to say chauvinistic, tones.
“pilate could not find GUILT”
very CONVENIENT for EACH gospel (pro roman writer) TO LEAVE out jesus’ DREAMS about KINGDOM of god, TELL the pals of jesus to ARM themselves to “fulfill prophecy” , boasting about coming on clouds and TAKING out the disbelievers .
very CONVENIENT
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Psalm 89:3-4
3 You said, “I have made a covenant with my chosen one,
I have sworn to my servant David:
4 ‘I will establish your descendants forever,
and build your throne for all generations.’”
Isaiah 9:6-7
6 For a child has been born for us,
a son given to us;
authority rests upon his shoulders;
and he is named
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 His authority shall grow continually,
and there shall be endless peace
for the throne of David and his kingdo m.
He will establish and uphold it
with justice and with righteousness
from this time onward and forevermore.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this.
what is used to establish the THRONE of david? which book?
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Eric
That is an irrelevant point. We are not commanded to perpetrate violence against anyone who disbelieves, and we are certainly not commanded to emulate the actions of biblical warriors. Muslims are commanded to emulate mohammed’s violence – that is a huge problem for the modern world.
The simple fact is that biblical acts of war are in no way similar to mohammed’s violence. Jews and christians are not called to view such behaviour as glorious, nor are we expected to think of dying in the act of war and killing in our god’s name as a free pass into heaven. None of the prophets who engaged in war for god are not revered for their battles, and are not elevated as models of human behaviour, not even as models for how to walk in god’s path.
These prophets were chosen as instruments of god’s judgement to the glory of god and god alone, and as a testament to god’s eternal power and pure goodness. None of them are elevated as examples of human behaviour.
Mohammed is glorified, his war-mongering is elevated to a spiritual level of reverence, and he is supposed to be the example of how to behave. As you know, he was extremely and sometimes sadistically violent.
No one should emulate this guy.
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quote:
love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
even the pagans used to hate, hate and hate like you used to. you used to publicly try to shame the religious authorities and then when they got pissed, you did not allow them to persecute you, you RAN like the christian coward you are. it is only when your right hand man spilled the beans which you got cornered.
”
45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven.”
the father in heaven never saw the amalekite unborn and new born as his children.
” He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good,”
except unborn children
“and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.”
but he sends rain on those he curses too .
you went around hating and cursing entire villages.
because know one bought your “miracles” as proof of your “divinity”
“Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”
lol, so much love. lol
wonder what hate would look like
“46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get?”
a better community. a system to control and change the evil people .
“Are not even the tax collectors doing that?”
no, they are doing for money making. if women hated their husbands, they would not have to put up with wife beating.
” 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others?”
you don’t need to love to greet people . you can greet someone even if you don’t love.
” Do not even pagans do that?”
no, actually they said stuff like love which you DEFINITELY didn’t know because of your RACIST ethnocentric jewish views
quote :
Taoist holy teaching: “Return love for hatred. Otherwise, when a great hatred is reconciled, some of it will surely remain. How can this end in goodness? Therefore the sage holds to the left hand of an agreement but does not expect what the other holder ought to do. Regard your neighbor’s gain as your own and your neighbor’s loss as your own loss. Whoever is self-centered cannot have the love of others.” (written centuries before Jesus was born)
quote :
Ancient Babylonian sacred teaching from two thousand years before Jesus was born: “Do not return evil to your adversary; Requite with kindness the one who does evil to you, Maintain justice for your enemy, Be friendly to your enemy.” (Akkadian Councils of Wisdom, as cited in Pritchard’s Ancient Near Eastern Texts)
” 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
except when it comes to unborn infants .
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quote:
First of all, the ancient israelites had seen god’s manifestation on earth – he had and his Angel had led them out of Egypt personally and they had witnessed his glory and magnificence first hand. He was present in the land as the OT describes. There was no doubting god’s presence nor that they were carrying god’s judgements.
quote :
17Samuel said, “Although you were once small in your own eyes, did you not become the head of the tribes of Israel? The Lord anointed you king over Israel. 18And he sent you on a mission, saying, ‘Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; wage war against them until you have wiped them out.’ 19Why did you not obey the Lord? Why did you pounce on the plunder and do evil in the eyes of the Lord?”
20“But I did obey the Lord,” Saul said. “I went on the mission the Lord assigned me. I completely destroyed the Amalekites and brought back Agag their king. 21The soldiers took sheep and cattle from the plunder, the best of what was devoted to God, in order to sacrifice them to the Lord your God at Gilgal.”
except that they weren’t carrying out your gods “judgement” like he wanted them to so your god regretted like a man for making saul team leader.
it is okay to carry out killing of unborn if you have a glowing god in your presence ?
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hey slime ball
http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/05/the-bibles-prescriptive-open-ended-and-universal-commandments-to-wage-holy-war-and-enslave-infidels/
http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/05/the-bibles-prescriptive-open-ended-and-universal-commandments-to-wage-holy-war-and-enslave-infidels/
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when ever a jew tries to prove that jesus is a USELESS idol, he will show texts which say that the laws in the torah don’t have a sell by date and jesus is a USELESS idol. if the laws, according to the torah don’t have a sell by date and are eternal, what is a jew suppose to do in the situation of being attacked ?
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Looking forward to some quotes from this book. I had no idea that Buddha was involved in conflict too. Fascinating.
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I thought you were making two separate points. You should’ve made your statement less ambiguous.
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Salam, which points you are referring to akhi?
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Oh that reply was aimed at Kev… this comments system is a bit of a nightmare on WordPress.
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Oh I see, sorry for the confusion.
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sorry about that
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Kev
You seem appalled at the idea of Jesus leading an armed resistance.
You can’t be a Trinitarian as a Jesus ordering violent actions is certainly not foreign to their beliefs. They believe this teaching came from the 2nd person of the Trinity doctrine:
2This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroya all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’ ” (1 Samuel 15)
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Yahya
That makes no sense whatsoever and does not relate to anything that I have said. I am not commanded to emulate that behaviour – muslims are commanded to emulate mohammed’s violence.
And god judges the sinful. God knows best.
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Kev’s argument doesn’t look convincing to me. On the one hand, God chose Moses(as) as a prophet and delivered guidance to the Israelites through him. Yet, Kev says we are not asked to emulate Moses(as).
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ascetic
“Kev’s argument doesn’t look convincing to me. On the one hand, God chose Moses(as) as a prophet and delivered guidance to the Israelites through him. Yet, Kev says we are not asked to emulate Moses(as).”
Okay. So where are we commanded to emulate moses?
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So you dont think that it is necessary to emulate a man God chose to lead the Israelites to get to know Him?? Interesting.
“Believe in the LORD your God, and you shall be upheld; believe His prophets, and you shall prosper” (2 Chronicles 20:20).
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Kev “Okay. So where are we commanded to emulate moses?”
lol 2Tim 3:16 lol
“***All** scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:”
Therefore Kev In Deutronomy Moses commands you to take to your heart all the words He has solemnly declared to you to adhere as commanded in your scriptures and as reiterated in 2tim 3:16 so that you may command your children to obey carefully ***all ** the words of the law. 47 They are not just idle words for you—they are your life.. Deut 32:46
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Kev : “It is relevant only in so much as it presents muslims with a problem”
what problem?
“you are commanded to emulate mohammed”…
Thats right! 🙂
“and here you admit that his actions were **only** appropriate for the culture of his time. ”
Nope didn’t say or admit that anywhere. show me where? lol..
“In other words, you are commanded to emulate 7th century ethics and behaviour in the early 21st century”
Correct however where applicable kev…
Today following the Sunnah of Muhammad p simply lies in his example of approach and management, using 21st century customs and the available means permissible within the boundaries and degree of flexibility of the shariah
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Omer
““***All** scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:”
Therefore Kev In Deutronomy Moses commands you to take to your heart all the words He has solemnly declared to you to adhere as commanded in your scriptures and as reiterated in 2tim 3:16 so that you may command your children to obey carefully ***all ** the words of the law. 47 They are not just idle words for you—they are your life.. Deut 32:46”
Sorry Omer, but this is dumb and desperate.
All scripture being “profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness” is not a command to emulate the actions of biblical prophets. And, commanding all your children to “obey carefully ***all ** the words of the law.” is nowhere near to being a command to emulate biblical prophets.
_________________________________________________________________________________
“Correct however where applicable kev…
Today following the Sunnah of Muhammad p simply lies in his example of approach and management, using 21st century customs and the available means permissible within the boundaries and degree of flexibility of the shariah”
Is the shariah the etrnal law of allah or isn’t it? If these acts of violence are mandated by sharia, the who are you to decide that only parts of it are relevant for the 21st century?
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Eric
“So you dont think that it is necessary to emulate a man God chose to lead the Israelites to get to know Him?? Interesting.
“Believe in the LORD your God, and you shall be upheld; believe His prophets, and you shall prosper” (2 Chronicles 20:20).”
How does this help your case? Again, no command to emulate prophets – just believe what they say.
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You seems ashamed with what the prophets of God did in your bible. Why not try buddhism?
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Kev are you a pacifist? 🙂
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yahya , thom stark wrote :
quote:
And child sacrifice! Right. Aside from the fact that Israelites
performed child sacrifices to Yahweh too, up until the seventh
century when it was condemned by Jeremiah and Josiah, let’s
consider this. In order to punish Canaanites for sacrificing a few
of their children (child sacrifice was exceptional anywhere it was
practiced), Yahweh ordered Israelites to kill all of their children.
Sounds reasonable.
//////////////
god told the jews to be different than the nations around them.
god told them to give up idolatry
god told them to give up pagan way of living but god did not tell them to stop ripping out unborn from 0-9 months from one location to the other.
how dare a man worshipping christian tell us about emulation when his god told people to RIP OUT UNBORN from the wombs of women?
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And therein is yet another example how the Trinitarian just cannot “Westernise” their ideology albeit their longing to do so.
The sovereignty of God is not in the dictionary of the Westernised secularists that the “Jesus loves you” brigade are trying to imitate hence why so many young Christians are being out on the slope to secularism (atheism, agnosticism deistic humanism etc.) by short sighted Westernized Christian speakers, apologists and scholars.
WWJCD in such a climate
JC = John Calvin
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Eric bin Kisam
“You seems ashamed with what the prophets of God did in your bible. Why not try buddhism?”
I’m not ashamed at all. It’s you guys who are ashamed – that’s why you have to try to bring buddhism and christianity down to the same level of violence as islam.
My point is simply that I am not commanded to emulate the violence commited by the prophets portrayed in the bible, muslims are commanded to emulate mohammed’s violence.
Divine retribution is god’s right, sometimes in the past he required his prophets to carry out his judgements and there was no doubt about his judgements because he made himself seen and was present.
Emulating the actions of any human prophet sans the appearance of god is simply idolatry because you are following man. For muslims, this is a problem because in your tradition you don’/t have the defense that god was present and that the entire nation saw his presence. No one saw this jibril so whatever authority was given to mohammed to enact divine judgement has no corroboration through eyewitness experience of the presence of god.
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We are proud of prophet Muhammad and we try our best to follow his examples as a just and God-fearing leader. It is you who ditch prophetic examples in your bible as if something against modern values. You outright reject that God is a man of war and shy away from the notion that prophet Jesus was a leader of arm resistances.
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@Kev
“…no one is commanded to view the actions of moses as good examples for all time.”
There are two possibilities about how you meant this statement:
1) Moses’ actions were not good examples at all but they could be wrong.
However according to the Bible Moses was a Prophet and acted according to the command of God. The wars that Moses fought were wars commanded by God. If you believe that Moses committed any crimes you will become an infidel by the consensus of Muslims, Jews and Christians.
2) Moses’ actions were right at that time but they cannot be taken as an example for other situations.
Whether or not specific actions of a prophet can be taken as example is always open to discussion. It cannot be categorically said that they are not but we have to look at what the theologians said.
The people who claim to be following Moses are the Jews. We should therefore first look at what they say about it. If you are a modern Evangelical and therefore accept their covenant and if it turns out that they believe to act like Moses you will get a big problem. The biggest trick of Christians in discussions with Muslims about the Bible is that they pretend as if Jews do not exist. They pretend as if the Bible is their book only.
Nevertheless we can look at the consequences that will arise if this statement is actually true. It would mean that the Islamic Jihad that is criticised by Christians was practiced by Moses at his time. The only difference would be that it is not to be practiced anymore. This might have practical consequences but in the theological discussion the critique of Islamic Jihad is nullified by it still because something that was right at some point at time cannot be categorically wrong at an other point of time unless you can prove an essential difference. That it is not valid anymore is not an essential difference.
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yourphariseefriend says:
December 28, 2016 at 6:37 am
CP Of course its not about Moses – its about turning to God – but obedience to God is described as listening to God “according to all that I (Moses) commands you today” – clearly implying that Moses remains the primary agent of God to bring us His law. Moses keeps on pointing to God – Jesus points to himself – just look at how often Jews think of Moses and how often Christians think of Jesus
yourphariseefriend says:
December 27, 2016 at 10:59 pm
CP Deuteronomy 30:2 reads – you will return to the Lord your God and hearken to His voice according to all that I command you today – the “I” is Moses – this is repeated in verse 8
– and the consequences for rejecting Jesus were nothing compared with the consequences of accepting him – those who rejected him suffered 2000 years of persecution – those who accepted him perpetrated 2000 years of persecution
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Rider
No, those points don’t make sense. My statement is simple and clear – clearer than the quran. Christians and jews are not commanded to emulate biblical violence nor the prophets who are associated with it.
Exceeding the limits with speculation is not a convincing argument. No command to emulate biblical violence of prophets means that there is no command to emulate biblical violence.
Again, it speaks volumes that muslims have to degrade other faiths and other revered people in order to make your faith look less violent. That is something you should think about.
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Even if it there was no command to emulate it it will not change the problem. If the acts Moses has done were evil they will be evil even if nobody emulates them. If you say that the acts of a Prophet are evil you will get a theological problem.
As Muslims we are not defending our morality by showing that other religions have the same. It is just about exposing hypocrisies in anti-Islamic propaganda.
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Kev said :
”
Again, it speaks volumes that muslims have to degrade other faiths and other revered people in order to make your faith look less violent. That is something you should think about.”
So, mentioning Moses(as)’s wars that were instructed by God are degrading to your faith. If so, then why did God ask Moses(as) to wage those wars ?
1. Our faith is clear in that all the prophets are role models.
2. It is also clear that God chose prophets only those who were capable of leading exemplary lives, obeying His commandments and that He did not err in his judgement while choosing them for guiding mankind.
Your position violates both and is untenable. Also, it is you who is degrading revered people like Moses(as) by claiming that his actions are not to be emulated.
By the way, references have already been given on believing all of the scripture and the prophets. Can you tell me where in the Bible does it asks believers NOT to emulate the violence perpetrated by the prophets ?
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“Christians and jews are not commanded to emulate biblical violence nor the prophets who are associated with it.”
bermudio writes :
https://www.academia.edu/10232441/_Jesus_and_the_Anti-Roman_Resistance._A_Reassessment_of_the_Arguments_Journal_for_the_Study_of_the_Historical_Jesus_12_2014_1-105
Moreover, throughout history many Christians (including
cardinals and popes) have hoisted love of enemies as their hallmark,
whereas they have hated, persecuted, waged war, and massacred their enemies,
and often they have presumably done it in all good faith
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jesus himself could say “do x” but then make an EXCEPTION and use violence to drive out traders and animals using a whip .
christians have been doing that too . they have used biblical texts to support the killing of a people and followed jesus rule of exception making.
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since you do not see moses and others as role models, why are you putting a dead crucified idol between god and man?
quote :
January 12, 2017 at 9:34 pm
Jim, that is such an important point. Not only are the differences between Jesus and Moses astronomical while they were alive, the differences between them are astronomical in death as well. In fact, I cannot imagine what similarities Christians even see between the two.
When Moses died–a man who led the entire nation of Israel out of bondage and into freedom and who relayed the teachings of the Torah to the whole nation–the people mourned him and moved on, following the next leader. This is what we do: we follow the leaders that are given to us in each generation (Deuteronomy 17:9). We do not obsess over dead men–nor over live ones, either, but that is beside the point. (The problem mainstream Orthodox Jews have with Chabad and Breslov is the danger of following a dead leader, a break with tradition.)
When Jesus died–a man who accomplished NOTHING but trouble for the nation of Israel–his followers made him into a deity. They never stopped obsessing over a dead man.
So that’s quite a stark difference.
According to Jewish tradition, God hid Moses’s burial place specifically to prevent such a thing from happening.
end quote
so why do you have a dead idol between god and man, but the jews moved on and said “next…” ?
there is NOTHING jesus said and done which past prophets did not do.
so why did you not say “next please ” like the jews say they did?
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Rider
“Even if it there was no command to emulate it it will not change the problem. If the acts Moses has done were evil they will be evil even if nobody emulates them. If you say that the acts of a Prophet are evil you will get a theological problem.”
There’s a big difference. Commanding muslims to emulate a brutal man who engaged in sometimes unnecessary violence changes the entire complexion of a religion and turns the actions of a flawed and sinful human being into the focus of the faith, rather than the message of god’s purity and judgement.
Moses’ actions are nowhere near central to the christian faith, and probably not to the jews either. As for moses’ actions being evil there are huge problems for you if you believe this.
First of all, the ancient israelites had seen god’s manifestation on earth – he had and his Angel had led them out of Egypt personally and they had witnessed his glory and magnificence first hand. He was present in the land as the OT describes. There was no doubting god’s presence nor that they were carrying god’s judgements.
Mohammed, on the other hand, simply did not know what kind of entity had visited him, and the people who submitted to this being’s message whom mohammed thought was a demon. God did not make his presence known, nor apparent – because allah can’t do that – so early muslims were not personally guided by god like the ancient israelites.
Nohammed became convinced that this demonlike being was god’s angel because a Nestorian Christian who did not see the being himself, told him so.
Do you see the problems? Firstly, god did not show his presence to mohammed and the early muslims like he showed himself to the ancient jews, the being that delivered the quran looked like a demon, and mohammed only changed his mind about this creature because a christian who – muslims like to claim, followed a bible that was corrupted – told him so. Your only evidence of allah’s presence is a book that needs human constructed tafsirs and hadiths to be understood properly.
Now, you could, foolishly, try to argue that there was some bible in arabia that was uncorrupted, but that doesn’t take away your problem. If mohammed had access to uncorrupted bibles, why couldn’t he preserve them?
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In the name of Allah
//There’s a big difference. Commanding muslims to emulate a brutal man who engaged in sometimes unnecessary violence changes the entire complexion of a religion and turns the actions of a flawed and sinful human being into the focus of the faith, rather than the message of god’s purity and judgement.//
It seems to me you read too much of islamophobic literatures, read many other scholarly and unbiased book for a change. Like the author of this book Professor Richard Gabriel whom himself was a military man himself in the US Army, he praises Prophet Muhammad as a great leader, organizational reformer, heroic soldier and the history’s first practitioner of insurgency bringing God’s message of AbrahamMonotheism into the a quarter of the earth population. There is nothing sinful from scriptures for fightingGod’s as long as it is a just war, the Qur’an set a strict code of combat devoid in-discriminatory attacks on non-combatants in the Bible.
Of course we muslims follow prophet Muhammad characters although we will never be like the best character God has ever created. But we follow his practical leadership to endure along with others he had asked others to endure, and endured better than others during hardship, he did not leave the battlefront for an inch a man, to show love, mercy, and kindness to one another and to any living things including plants and animal. Most importantly we follow him in remembering Allah much and consistently.
Regarding Muhammad revelation, it was similar to other hebrew prophets for example Daniel who were feared for his life and shaken when receiving prophecy (see Daniel 10). Nevertheless the prophet Muhammad experience even confirmed by a pious and trust-worty christian monk Waraqa ibn Naufal that it was genuinely from God. This monk did not have to see the angel himself, as a man of God surely he must have sensed if demon was anything to do with the prophet experiences.
It is funny that you are doubting that prophet Muhammad received genuine revelation knowing the fact that the Qur’an is the only book which was perfectly preserved and the only book who are memorized by heart to this very day while you have no quarrel over to accept “revelation” as told by documents written by unknown men in the language alien to prophet Jesus. And you accept the writing of a man (Saul) who were bitterly opposed to Jesus and claim vision for himself and call it a scripture which contains many discrepancies and errors?
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Ascetic
“By the way, references have already been given on believing all of the scripture and the prophets. Can you tell me where in the Bible does it asks believers NOT to emulate the violence perpetrated by the prophets ?”
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Ascetic
Also in the above quote, we can see how allah’s love only for those who love him has been categorically defined by Jesus as paganistic.
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where was god’s presence when saul went from one place to the other ripping out unborn who from probably 0 -9 months ?
why does jesus not read the bible?
he uses the practices of biblical TERRORISTS like moses and david to justify his own beliefs
i quote :
David is punished for the treachery of having Uriah killed because he wouldn’t sleep with his wife while his troops were camped outside the city in order to make him think Bathsheba’s child would be his.
OTOH, in Mark 2:23-28, Jesus uses David as an example of eating sacred bread on the sabbath though in 1 Samuel 21, it doesn’t say the event was on a sabbath, only that the bread had been replaced on the sabbath which is in accordance with the temple rituals. But Jesus seems not to have read that the whole village was killed in the next chapter because of that incident.
can you tell me who are you to question anyone on emulation when your god commanded the RIPPING out of unborn from location to location ?
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quote :
…..love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
/////////////////////////////
Did the Message of ‘Love thy Enemies’ Put Jesus beyond the Political Antagonisms of his Age?
The injunction concerning the love of one’s enemies and lack of resistance to evil, conveyed in Mt. 5.38–39, 48, is a typical objection to any hypothesis of a seditious Jesus. The presence of the closing antitheses of the Sermon on the Mount, with its teaching of love, seems to preclude any violent reaction against the Roman Empire and its collaborators.
This objection, however, was already countered by Robert Eisler almost a century ago, by arguing that there are several reasonable answers. One is that, if one nds a contradiction between Mt. 5 and—for instance—the say-ings about the swords, and decides to drop the latter as secondary, then one
could also, and maybe with better reasons, drop the saying on love of one’s enemies as secondary and inauthentic. Another—more convincing—possibility for explaining the whole evidence is to state the idea of a spiritual evolution in Jesus. There are two interrelated reasons to think so. First, seditious overtones surface more clearly in the clos-ing stages of his life. Secondly, such as Eisler remarked, Lk. 22.36 seems to witness a shift in Jesus’ attitude. This proposal is all the more reasonable because there are several Gospel passages indicating that, as the decisive moment in Jerusalem approached, Jesus underwent some critical situations and adopted serious decisions
A further possibility lies in not nding contradiction at all between Mt. 5.38–48 and a seditious stance. In fact, the two closing antitheses of the Sermon on the Mount have been interpreted as making sense not (or not pri-marily and specically) in the political realm, but rather in a context of local social interaction, and more probably in conicts that would have been related to the economic diculties of communities which are disintegrating precisely because of the rigorous taxation by Roman client rulers, indirectly because of
Roman imperialism. If this reading is correct, the ‘love thy enemies’ saying would not be addressed to political enemies, but would paradoxi-cally express a form of resistance to oppressive foreign rule through con-structive social relations characterized by mutual assistance and a spirit of solidarity. Admittedly, if one thinks—with most scholarly opinion—that the political realm must not be excluded from the saying, unless we accept the already mentioned view of a shift in Jesus, we should conclude that there is here a bla-tant inconsistency. This, however, does not lead us into an impasse: religious visionaries and charismatic preachers are not usually consistent. Contradictions of this kind are also found in the New Testament. For instance, if ‘the contradiction between the commandment to love and the incitement to hate not only belongs to later interpretations of the [Fourth] Gospel but is also inherent in the text itself’, I cannot see why the simultaneous presence of conicting features could not be also present in Jesus’ life and mind.
In fact we nd sayings in the Gospels that are extremely hostile to wealth and rich people, but also passages witnessing nancial support of the Jesus movement, including women who were presumably not so poor; both traditions coexist without any indication that they were contradictory, and it is likely that they go back to Jesus’ lifetime. Moreover, throughout history many Christians (includ-ing cardinals and popes) have hoisted love of enemies as their hallmark, whereas they have hated, persecuted, waged war, and massacred their enemies, and often they have presumably done it in all good faith
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more :
“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn ” ‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law– a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’ Mt.10:34-36.”
“I did not come to bring peace.” That means what it says: he is not preaching peace. Hence in the parallel passage in Luke (12:49-53) he says: “I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! … Thus, the passage pertains to something he wishes to happen, not anything that saddens him or that he wants to stop
we can understand that jesus and satan agree that to make ones house fall one MUST DIVIDE and jesus says in the FIRST PERSON that he WANTS TO divide people
was this person crucified because he was “innocent lamb” and “turn thy cheek” christian?
“Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two > against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-
law.
“(diamerizo), which means divide, distribute, create disunity, and in
context, where the word is explicitly contrasted with peace (eirene),
and the word epi + accusative (“against”) follows, the meaning is
obviously intrafamily war. ”
love
I tried to show that jesus’ command to love your enemy was a TEMPORARY TACTIC because he assured his disciples that he would come back and torture those who had wronged them, something clearly indicated in Matthew 25:41ff, and Luke 17:28
In other words, jesus’ commands are akin to me telling my friend that he should not fight back against a bully because later I will come back and burn that bully alive on behalf of my friend. Jesus was following a premise found already in
Deuteronomy 32.43: “Praise his people, O you nations; for he avenges the blood of his servants.”
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avalos seems to say it was a temporary tactic , but i think bermudios explnation makes much better sense.
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quote:
love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
even the pagans used to hate, hate and hate like you used to. you used to publicly try to shame the religious authorities and then when they got pissed, you did not allow them to persecute you, you RAN like the christian coward you are. it is only when your right hand man spilled the beans which you got cornered.
”
45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven.”
the father in heaven never saw the amalekite unborn and new born as his children.
” He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good,”
except unborn children
“and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.”
but he sends rain on those he curses too .
you went around hating and cursing entire villages.
because know one bought your “miracles” as proof of your “divinity”
“Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”
lol, so much love. lol
wonder what hate would look like
“46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get?”
a better community. a system to control and change the evil people .
“Are not even the tax collectors doing that?”
no, they are doing for money making. if women hated their husbands, they would not have to put up with wife beating.
” 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others?”
you don’t need to love to greet people . you can greet someone even if you don’t love.
” Do not even pagans do that?”
no, actually they said stuff like love which you DEFINITELY didn’t know because of your RACIST ethnocentric jewish views
quote :
Taoist holy teaching: “Return love for hatred. Otherwise, when a great hatred is reconciled, some of it will surely remain. How can this end in goodness? Therefore the sage holds to the left hand of an agreement but does not expect what the other holder ought to do. Regard your neighbor’s gain as your own and your neighbor’s loss as your own loss. Whoever is self-centered cannot have the love of others.” (written centuries before Jesus was born)
quote :
Ancient Babylonian sacred teaching from two thousand years before Jesus was born: “Do not return evil to your adversary; Requite with kindness the one who does evil to you, Maintain justice for your enemy, Be friendly to your enemy.” (Akkadian Councils of Wisdom, as cited in Pritchard’s Ancient Near Eastern Texts)
” 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
except when it comes to unborn infants .
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Eric
“Regarding Muhammad revelation, it was similar to other hebrew prophets for example Daniel who were feared for his life and shaken when receiving prophecy (see Daniel 10). Nevertheless the prophet Muhammad experience even confirmed by a pious and trust-worty christian monk Waraqa ibn Naufal that it was genuinely from God. This monk did not have to see the angel himself, as a man of God surely he must have sensed if demon was anything to do with the prophet experiences.
It is funny that you are doubting that prophet Muhammad received genuine revelation knowing the fact that the Qur’an is the only book which was perfectly preserved and the only book who are memorized by heart to this very day while you have no quarrel over to accept “revelation” as told by documents written by unknown men in the language alien to prophet Jesus. And you accept the writing of a man (Saul) who were bitterly opposed to Jesus and claim vision for himself and call it a scripture which contains many discrepancies and errors?”
Okay, some random guy believed that mohammed had been vistied by god’s angel although he saw nothing himself and died before any more revelations were sent down? Hardly convincing. The ancient israelites were led out of Egypt by the very presence of god, his angel, and the spirit and had countless encounters with god’s presence throughout the old testament. Hundreds of thousands saw it and could not deny it. Warraqa’s assertion pales into absurdity by comparison.
I see nothing miraculous about a book being preserved – and if we are honest we would know that there are vast differences between all the oldest incomplete copies of extant qurans. Just out of curiosity – what is the oldest complete quran in existences?
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Prophet Muhammad received series of revelation over the course of 23 years and completed the revelation and later died in peace in the lap of his wife.
There is never a community of believer who took a good care of its scripture like the muslims, the oral tradition goes back to the prophet Muhammad himself. We recite it in the original language everyday and it is never in the hands of a particular any particular church it has always been in the hand of Muslims at large in pure and undistorted form. Muslims dont really on written transmission the Qur’an is MEMORIZED till now however surviving manuscripts like the recent manuscript at the university of Birmingham the UK dated within the life time of the Prophet does confirms the accuracy of the historical Muslim accounts.
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Kev
“Also in the above quote, we can see how allah’s love only for those who love him has been categorically defined by Jesus as paganistic.”
But, then does this tell us that Jesus’s love was paganistic as well ? You do realise that ‘love your enemy’ contradicts the actions of prophets in the Bible right? Or are you trying to tell us that this Law overruled the previous teachings of the Bible.
“Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him.” (2 John 1:9-10)
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jesus taught in the lord’s Prayer “Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.”
“But the LORD will have compassion on Jacob and will again choose Israel, and will set them in their own land; and aliens will join them and attach themselves to the house of Jacob. And the peoples will take them and bring them to their place, and the house of Israel will possess them in the LORD’s land as male and female slaves; they will take captive those who were their captors, and rule over those who oppressed them.
(Isaiah 14:1-2; RSV).
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eric, you probably already know about loon watch
quote :
Instead of defending their initial claim (which they simply cannot), the Islamophobes quickly shift gears and rely on a fallback argument: they argue that “the Bible doesn’t actively exhort its believers to commit acts of violence, unlike the Quran.” I refuted this argument in part 6 (see 6-i, 6-ii, 6-iii, 6-iv) in an article entitled The Bible’s Prescriptive, Open-Ended, and Universal Commandments to Wage Holy War and Enslave Infidels.
http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/10/does-jewish-law-justify-killing-civilians/
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hello eric,
Many of the Psalms are war poems, glorifying holy war against heathens. No wonder then that even today “when Israel is at war, Jews gather to recite Psalms” and “many Yeshivot and synagogues recite Psalms (especially Psalms 20, 83, 121, 130, 142 …) daily for the protection of Jews in Israel from terrorism.” (Certainly, ethnic cleansing–which is called for in this particular selection of Psalms–is one vengefully satisfying, albeit ineffective, way of dealing with terrorism.) Christian soldiers in the U.S. military routinely recall and recite the Psalms as they sustain their illegal occupations in the lands of the Saracen heathens.
The Bible proclaims:
Psalms 149:5 Let godly people triumph in glory. Let them sing for joy on their beds.
149:6 Let the praises of God be in their mouths, and a two-edged sword in their hands,
149:7 to execute vengeance on the heathen and punishment on the people,
149:8 to bind their kings with chains, and their leaders with iron shackles.
Using Spencer’s own standards, this is a “prescriptive, open-ended, and universal” proclamation of holy war against “the heathen”. Far from letting “God handle the unbelievers”, this Biblical passage empowers men to do God’s bidding–with the sharp edges of a sword no less. After all, Psalm 18:34 says of God: “He teaches my hands to war” and 144:1 says: “Praise be to the LORD, who is my rock, who teaches my hands to war and my fingers to fight.”
http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/05/the-bibles-prescriptive-open-ended-and-universal-commandments-to-wage-holy-war-and-enslave-infidels-ii/
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erik ,
quote :
Other verses more graphically depict how the Jewish and/or Christian believers will themselves “see vengeance” and exult in bloodletting:
58:10 The righteous will be glad when they see vengeance, when they bathe their feet in the blood of the wicked.
The believers pray to God: “Strike all my enemies on the jaw; break the teeth of the wicked” (3:7), “Strike them with terror” (9:20), “let death seize my enemies” (55:15), “trample our enemies” (60:120), “destroy them!” (74:11), “terrify them” (83:15), and “let them perish in disgrace” (83:17).
It cannot be claimed that these verses ask for the intervention of God without any human action. Rather, the Psalms are calling for divine support to aid human soldiers on the battlefield. This becomes abundantly clear from numerous passages contained therein:
18:29 With [God’s] help I can advance against a troop [of soldiers]; with my God I can scale [an enemy] wall.
18:30 God’s way is perfect. All the LORD’s promises prove true. He is a shield for all who look to him for protection.
18:31 For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?
18:32 It is God who arms me with strength and makes my way perfect.
18:33 He makes my feet like the feet of a deer; he enables me to stand on the heights.
18:34 He teaches my hands to war, so that a bow of steel is broken by my arms.
18:35 You have given me your shield of victory. Your right hand supports me; your help has made me great.
18:36 You broaden the path beneath me, so that my ankles do not turn.
18:37 I will pursue my enemies and overtake them; I will not turn back till they are destroyed.
18:38 I will smite them through, so that they shall not be able to rise: They shall fall under my feet.
18:39 You have armed me with strength for the battle; you have subdued my enemies under my feet.
18:40 You have also given me the necks of my enemies; that I might destroy them that hate me.
God’s aid is certainly sought, but it is the human who will become God’s agent of vengeance. It can almost be considered that God was thought of as another fighter on the battlefield:
108:11 Have you rejected us, O God? Will you no longer march with our armies?
108:12 Oh grant us help against the foe, for vain is the salvation of man!
108:13 With God we will gain the victory, and he will trample down our enemies.
Psalm 83 is one of the most commonly recited parts of the Bible and is in fact read “daily” by many pro-Israeli Jewish congregations.
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eric, jewish idf :
Psalm 83 is one of the most commonly recited parts of the Bible and is in fact read “daily” by many pro-Israeli Jewish congregations. This psalm calls for God to do to the enemies of Israel what was done to the people of Midian. As we read earlier, the Israelites killed every Midianite man, and enslaved their women and children. The passage also lists other peoples who were defeated and destroyed by the Israelites. This prayer in the Book of Psalms reads:
83:9 Do to them as you did to Midian, as you did to Sisera and Jabin at the river Kishon,
83:10 who perished at Endor and became like dung for the ground.
83:11 Make their nobles like Oreb and Zeeb, all their princes like Zebah and Zalmunna,
83;12 who said, “Let us take possession of the pasturelands of God.
83:13 Make them like tumbleweed, O my God, like chaff before the wind.
83:14 As fire consumes the forest or a flame sets the mountains ablaze,
83:15 so pursue them with your tempest and terrify them with your storm.
83:16 Cover their faces with shame so that men will seek your name, O LORD.
83:17 May they ever be ashamed and dismayed; may they perish in disgrace.
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eric, when christians were getting SMASHED at loonwatch, please note how badly the comments did not go above 13
http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/05/the-bibles-prescriptive-open-ended-and-universal-commandments-to-wage-holy-war-and-enslave-infidels-ii/
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eric,
Precisely, this is why Spencer omitted Deuteronomy 20: 15 from his rendition of a Biblical passage. The verse can clearly be taken as a carte blanch, given by God, to take any city the blessed want that “do not belong to the nations nearby.” Again, you haven’t addressed Spencer omission of that particular verse, instead choosing to repeat yourself numerous times in an attempt to obfuscate the issue. This highlights the weakness of your argument. The Chalcedon Report seems to agree with me, as it mentions that “This passage is not dealing with the special, limited Holy War which secured the Promised Land.” In other words, it’s not “dead letter.”
http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/05/the-bibles-prescriptive-open-ended-and-universal-commandments-to-wage-holy-war-and-enslave-infidels-iii/
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what you will never find in the “holy bible”
2:190 Fight in the way of God against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities! For God loves not aggressors.
2:191 And slay them wherever you find them, and drive them out of the places wherever they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And do not fight them at the Sacred Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you there, then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
2:192 But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
2:193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for God. But if they cease, let there be no hostility except towards those who practise oppression.
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