Bart Ehrman is an American New Testament scholar, currently the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Categories: Bart Ehrman, Bible, Biblical scholarship, God
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Blogging Theology 
Its a no from Hurtado & Dunn as well in response to whether Jesus was YHWH
Basically the two NT scholar express that two christological emphases in th NT portray Jesus essentially as acting in the role of YHWH and as the unique agent of YHWH but clearly not the person of YHWH himself….
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Professor James D.G Dunn concludes in his book:
‘The New Testament writers are really quite careful at this point. Jesus is not the God of Israel. He is not the father. He is not Yahweh. An identification of Jesus with and as Yahweh was an early attempt to resolve the tensions indicated above; it was labelled ‘Modalism’, a form of ‘Monarchianism’ (the one God operating first as Father then as Son), and accounted a heresy.’ pp 141-142. ‘Did the first Christians Worship Jesus?’
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nice quote!
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Thanks Paul Williams! It’s nice that you like the quote. I am just surprised that Muslims are not utilising and studying James Dunn’s work. He really unravels the correct history and interpretation of Jesus-Worship! Larry Hurtado also has pretty rejected the belief that Jesus claimed to be God. We need more of these Professors and Theologians coming out. I wonder what Professor Alister McGrath would say, since he is a Trinitarian as well like Dunn and Hurtado. Would he honestly admit, the origins methodology and controversies of the doctrine? Could somebody ask or find out? Was Jesus Yahweh? Was he a Trinitarian, Mr Mcgrath? Did he claim to be Yahweh?
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‘I am just surprised that Muslims are not utilising and studying James Dunn’s work.’
Many of us have been for a long time!
Alister McGrath is not a biblical scholar. He is a trained scientist and Christian theologian.
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Paul Williams I See! By the way, here is absolute proof as to why Philippians 2:5-8 does not affirm the Deity of Christ!! Please bring attention to this. On this website, ALL Trinitarian passages are throughly and effectively refuted!
http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/TTD/verses/morphetheou.html
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The Christian “YHWH” is a strange sort of organism. It’s an entire genus consisting entirely of three separate species all in a symbiotic relationship.
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it is “one echad” or “one company” EXTERNALLY
internally it consists of single echads.
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so honestly and truly, no christian can say they truly worship echad god because their god is not truly echad.
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Hello Abu Talhah,
You wrote:
==The Christian “YHWH” is a strange sort of organism. It’s an entire genus consisting entirely of three separate species all in a symbiotic relationship.==
I would say that those “Christians” who argue that ‘Jesus is YHWH’ are wrong. With that said, not all Christians equate Jesus Christ with the one YHWH of the Bible; instead, they recognize that the YHWH of the Bible is God the Father.
Although God the Father alone is the one YHWH of the Bible, this one YHWH places His Name on some of His representatives. For instance, Jerusalem, as a representative of YHWH’s presence—via His temple and shekinah—is to be called YHWH. Note the following:
“In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely; and this is the name whereby she shall be called: Jehovah our righteousness.” (Jer. 33:16 -ASV)
Also, the angel of Yahweh (malakh YHWH) is sometimes referred to simply as Yahweh:
“And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of Jehovah, and Satan standing at his right hand to be his adversary. And Jehovah said unto Satan, Jehovah rebuke thee, O Satan; yea, Jehovah that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?” (Zech. 3:1, 2 – ASV)
Now, since God the Father—the Yahweh of the OT; the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob—created all things through His divine Word/Logos, the NT sometimes applies OT passages which reference Yahweh to His divine Word/Logos.
And so, a correct interpretation of the Bible does not conflict with the clear teaching of the Shema:
“Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah” (Deut. 6:4)
“And one of the scribes came, and heard them questioning together, and knowing that he had answered them well, asked him, What commandment is the first of all? Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one” (Mark 12:28, 29 – ASV)
Grace and peace,
David
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Where’s James White?
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Who is James White?
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That one who “challenged” Dr Ehrman about this subject!
The arrogant guy!
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Muslims endorsing Bart Ehrman who only goes on to disprove Islam…again. 👏🏻
Well done, Bilal. 😂
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silly me, I thought he had disproved Christianity!
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“They thought he was the Son of Yahweh”
According to the Quran God does not have a son.
Oh btw on a side-note. Williams I’ve seen how you keep pestering Ismaeel Abu Adam for persisting with his adopted Islamic name. Yet i notice you don’t seem think it’s as much of an issue to continue going by your Christian name ‘Paul Williams’. Why the hypocrisy and double standards, dude?
Why haven’t you completely dropped ‘Paul Williams’ and proudly use your Muslim name full time?
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In Islam I am not obliged to change my name at all. Its perfectly acceptable. Unlike Neil (I have discovered his real name is Colin btw) I am not pretending to be something I am not.
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But you HAVE changed your name. If not what’s ‘Bilal’ all about then?
Again, don’t be a hypocrite.
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Again, I have NOT changed my name. I have an English name and a Muslim name. This is quite acceptable. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder. What’s eating you up dude?
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This is the epitome of delusion. It’s literally the reverse/opposite of reality. The refutation is Literally and figuratively AGAINST the pagan religion AKA Christianity. We should not be surprised at this level of delusion since:
1) Christians believe that Jesus is God even when he pleads with them that he has a God
2) Christians believe The bible is the word of God even though it is riddled with mistakes and contradictions
3) Christians believe that the idea of the trinity preceded the Council on Nicea and Constantinople and even is to be found in the Torah! when in fact, none of this is true
I could go on but I would spend the rest of my life showing how contorted their approach to their theology is. (Notice I said approach to THEIR theology since they are never consistent with the arguments and logic or lack thereof when it comes to other people’s theologies)
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Zelyts Suoirif, Dr Ehrman argues that Jesus was a Jewish Prophet and he was regarded as the “Son of God” by later Christians as the Israelites were in (Deuteronomy 14:1; cf. Ex. 4:22; Deut 32:6, 18-19; Psalm 29:1; Rom 9:4). Will you believe that the Israelites are Yahweh? Be consistent. Israelite Judges are the Sons of God and God ( Elohim) according to Psalm 82 :6. Angels are Sons of God (Job 38:4,7). Shockingly, Satan is a SON of GOD! (Job 1:6). Christians are Sons of God (Galatians 3:26).It is quite easy to see that “son of man” does not make one Adam and “son of God” does not make one “God.” Angels are also sons of God yet Trinitarians do not try to claim that this means they are the one God. And being one of those angels, Satan is also a “son of God.” Moreover, believers in Jesus are “sons of God.” The term means one is a son of another identity called “God.”
This definition of “son of man” is being suggestively used to mean “son of humanity” or “son of human nature” in contrast to “son of divine nature.” However, we can see clearly in the Scriptures the term “son of God” is to used to refer to the son of another person, not the son of a nature.
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“According to the Quran God does not have a son.”
neither does He have a daughter .
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The Quranic texts engage and refute numerous false accusations and presumptions about Allah having a son or sons and daughters in various contexts
This includes refuting the false notion that God ontological has a son ( eternal emanation or begetton son) that shares the same divine nature. since if God had a son that eternally subsists by the eternal emanation or begetting of the father then the son by divine nature would be a recipient of worship just as articulated or conceptualized in trinitarian christological polytheism
The Quran makes clear that if God did have a son, who therefore must be divine in nature like the father and therefore entitled to be a recipient of worship then Muhammad would be the first of God’s worshippers to worship the son, however the Quran refutes this falsehood by drawing our attention to pure monotheism since worshipping two divine persons or deities sharing the same divine nature would translate as polytheism. The Quran implicitly reiterates or proclaims the truth that God has no son since only Allah is the true deity and that only Allah is the true God to be worshipped alone in heaven and on earth
81. Say (O Muhammad): “If the Most Merciful (Allah) had a son then I am the first of Allah’s worshippers”
82. Glorified be the Lord of the heavens and the earth, the Lord of the Throne! Exalted be He from all that they ascribe (to Him).
83. So leave them (alone) to speak nonsense and play until they meet the Day of theirs, which they have been promised.
84. It is He (Allah) Who is the only Ilah (God to be worshipped) in the heaven and the only Ilah (God to be worshipped) on the earth. And He is the All-Wise, the All-Knower. 43:81-84
.
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it is quite clear that the quran understood trinity much better than christians.
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Godzilla has a son
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lol
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Ahh so now that makes sense. It’s no wonder people were confused all this time!
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So let me get this straight…
God has a son.
Said son created the Universe
Mary gives birth to the God who created her and existed before her
Mary gave birth to God who is his own son, inside the universe he previously created before he was… created
This son is as old as God (pre-existed not created)
Said son is all knowing (God)
Said son is not privy to his own knowledge (The hour/end of days). Fair play though that one a toughy! But the season of figs should not be a challenge
Said son IS God
Said son worships himself (God)
Said son is eternal (Lives forever)
Said son is immortal (Can’t die)
Said son dies on the cross (whoops)
Said son dies for our sins
Said son comes back to life after 3 days (so it was just a temporary stop gap)
—————————————————————————————————————————————–
Christianity can be summed up by the following parable:
One fine day in the middle of the night
Two dead boys got up to fight
Back to back they faced each other
Drew their swords and shot each other
One was blind and the other couldn’t see
So they chose a dummy for a referee.
A blind man went to see fair play
A dumb man went to shout “hooray!”
And two lame men came to carry them away
A paralysed donkey passing by
Kicked the blind man in the eye
Knocked him through a nine-inch wall
Into a dry ditch and drowned them all
A deaf policeman heard the noise
And came to arrest the two dead boys
If you don’t believe this story’s true,
Ask the blind man he saw it too!
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james white needs “divine revelation” to prove to himself that “mother of god” brought 2 natures into the world.
what disgusting and blasphemous thought
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“Said son comes back to life after 3 days (so it was just a temporary stop gap)”
“comes back to life” = nonsense bro.
god brings to life and sometimes keeps alive (elijah)
there is never a time when god (the invisibleness of god) was ever “brought to life”
the invisible bit never became anything .
it seems to be a meat sacrificial ritual done by the invisible bit.
james white believes that father, son and ghost paradoxically was sacrificed and became the sacrificer
yet in ot, there is never a time yhwh perform sacrifices for himself.
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it was all a stage play bro.
jesus was acting on stage. the meat puppet bit wasn’t even god .
i
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you lose your eye sight knowing full well that you will get them back in 4 hours and you know full well that by losing your eyesight you will be guaranteed with heaven.
on the other hand there is another guy who only has BELIEF that he will get his eyesight back. he sacrifices his eyes and never gets them back, he dies.
who sacrificed more?
a stage playing god, or a genuine guy who only had belief that he would get his eyes back?
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Dr Ehrman is explaining that Jesus was regarded as an entity entirely subordinate to YHWH. He was not regarded as YHWH. He was of a lower rank. This position is condemned by Trinitarians as Heretical. But that was what they believed. Though Islam denies the Sonship, Ehrman does validate the Islamic claim that Jesus is not God. So it still destroys Christianity as a Fact. Muslims can believe on Faith that Jesus denied Sonship to Allah. But Christians have to deal with the concrete reality, that Jesus was not regarded as YHWH by NT Writers nor did Jesus claim to be YHWH.
#Fact Jesus did not Claim to be YHWH
#Fact NT writers did not regard Jesus as YHWH
#Fact Jesus/NT Writers not Trinitarian.
The above 3 Points Prove the Qur’an. And the above 3 are solid facts.
Muslim can have faith that Jesus denied Sonship and the NT, due to being influenced by Pagan ideas (a claim not impossible) promotes this doctrine. And the OT is clearly corrupt, as they lost the Tanakh as mentioned in 2 Kings 22.
King Josiah ruled for 31 years without the Torah, until it was discovered by a Priest:
And Hilkiah the high priest said unto Shaphan the scribe, I have found the book of the law in the house of the Lord. And Hilkiah gave the book to Shaphan, and he read it.
Concerned by the words which were in the book, and the contrasting actions of the Israelites, they were not obeying the laws within it – the King ordered the Priest to find the meaning of the words in the book:
Go ye, enquire of the Lord for me, and for the people, and for all Judah, concerning the words of this book that is found: for great is the wrath of the Lord that is kindled against us, because our fathers have not hearkened unto the words of this book, to do according unto all that which is written concerning us.
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