Watch till the end for hilarious comment by Dr Shabir Ally. Even Sam Shamoun laughs.
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Watch till the end for hilarious comment by Dr Shabir Ally. Even Sam Shamoun laughs.
Categories: Christianity, Islam
Blogging Theology 
He is right.
But Christians often ignore Matthew 19:29 which says they would make love with 100 wives.
http://comparativreligion.blogspot.com/2016/12/matthew-1929-100-wives-for-christians.html
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BTW, I agree with the woman.
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@Sunni
“”But Christians often ignore Matthew 19:29 which says they would make love with 100 wives.””
WTF are you talking about you imbecile?
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Imbecile? And what kind of name is Zelyts Suoiruf?
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It’s “furious stylez” backwards. Yeah, “styles” with a z… backwards. What a cool kid, huh?
I’m well jealous.
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well spotted!
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I’ve always find the christian idea about the life hereafter to be so odd!
They basically believe that they will become gods in the presence of the big god.
In judaism, the image is so vague.
In Islam, the concept is so right, and it does make sense. To have a life with all gardens’ bounty and with all hapiness, that does make sense and reflects the beauty of Islam.
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I was wrong to take you seroiusly. You are noting but a silly troll
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The question is why you think that hapiness for Paul is by having sex with males in paradise?
Allah will make sure that everyone will be perfect and ready for paradise. Once you enter in it, you will forget all your problems.
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“Yo” is a troll who has been banded many times on this blog. We all know who he is. Pay no attention to him.
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I actually wonder how Christians find it motivating to work towards heaven when they believe that they are going to be like an angel. On the other hand we have the pleasure of seeing the Lord, the company of the righteous, socializing with our near and dear ones, all the pleasures of the human senses and even more.
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“all the pleasures of the human senses” – but not a very important one!
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ascetic
That, as clear as the day, is how islam demeans the true god.
Don;t you know that being in god’s presence surpasses even the most exquisite physical pleasure we can possibly imagine? That is the gift of atonement that mohammed took from muslims.
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Are you gonna practise for life in heaven by being celibate today?
Remember: you will not know any sexual intimacy for eternity. You will be like a eunuch.
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You poor fools. How vulgar allah is.
The presence of god is infinitely more joyful than sexual pleasure. The best that allah can offer you is sexual pleasure?
Turn away from your cult before it is too late.
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Christians hate sex and deny the lawfulful pleasures of the body.
Enjoy compulsory celebacy in heaven dude 😉
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That’s news to me.
Either way, you are saying that female genitals – or whatever object of your lust might be – provides more pleasure than the joy of god’s presence. Allah presence is less desirable than pussy. Nice one!
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I completely agree with Kev on this. If God created man for himself, man will find his ultimate satisfaction in his presence.
It is absurd in my view, to think that humans beings will still aspire to have beuatiful women, big palaces, rivers etc when he is supposedly with his Creator, the ver Creator of joy and happines.
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The pleasure that we will have – insha’ Allah – in paradise doesn’t contradict our pleasure with presence of God.
The question is why we would become gods according to christianity?!
In Islam, we would still be human beings. We will eat, drink, and having sex with all purity and pleasure. This is a super motive to restrict yourself from doing many things in this life because you believe that what you will have in heaven is much better in all aspects.
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Paul Williams wrote…
“Enjoy compulsory celebacy in heaven dude”
Good point. The Christian idea of heaven is a totally unnatural.
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I agree!
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IT
“Good point. The Christian idea of heaven is a totally unnatural.”
Paul
“I agree”
Classic islamic double-think. LOL.
Heaven isn’t “natural” – if it was natural, it would be nature and creation but not heaven. Therefore, to suggest that heaven is merely eternal bestial pleasure absolutely demeans allah.
Do you guys really believe that you go through all of the suffering in the world just so that you can have a bunch of girlfriends in the afterlife? LOL.
Surely you can see that your allah does not exist – he is merely the imaginings of 7th century pagans whose lives were heavily regulated by draconian restriction on behaviour. In these circumstances, absolute libertarian freedom would seem like heaven – but it isn’t, allah is not a libertarian.
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“Do you guys really believe that you go through all of the suffering in the world just so that you can have a bunch of girlfriends in the afterlife”
It’s not like that. You talk like this because of your background in this life.
In paradise, everything is pure. Having sex with all purity is one type of pleasure in Paradise. What’s wrong with that?
You may read Luke 14, and tell us how you’re gonna EAT bread in heaven?
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Kev,
You are so wrong and misguided on this one. The best pleasure is explicitly mentioned in the Qur’an that it is seeing the Face of the Lord. But, that doesn’t mean we don’t have other lesser pleasures. The Qur’an talks a lot of things about heaven, not just beautiful spouses. We know what we are going to have and how we live in our eternal life, which unfortunately the Bible is not revealing much and so I don’t necessarily find it motivating. In fact, it’s demotivating to know I would be converted to an angel, thus losing our identity.
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Poitierfrance,
“I completely agree with Kev on this. If God created man for himself, man will find his ultimate satisfaction in his presence.”
God also created the desire for partner when he created man. He created Eve after he created Adam (ra) . Wasn’t God sufficient for Adam (as)?
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@TheAscetic
The bible teaches that there will be genuine and eternal joy and peace of mind in God’s kingdom. Believers will find complete satisfaction in this new existence after they are saved.
For you to claim that the bible is demotivating reflects nothing more than your own human prejudice. Clearly for the christian believer, his faith and spiritual experience confirms in him the joy his scripture promises to him.
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We will still be human beings even after resurrection.
The pleasure will be for the soul and for the body both. This is how we are created. As a human being!
It seems that christinas are compatible with mormons that they will be gods.
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A swimming pool filled with tea and an infinite supply of digestive and rich tea biscuits.
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Only an Englishman would say that.
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Can you think of a better vision? Oh yes, and driving a train.
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A library works too. Fully stocked with biscuits mind.
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As an Englishman I would of course agree.
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“Only an Englishman would say that”
In Sahih Bukhari
“Once the Prophet (ﷺ) was narrating (a story), while a bedouin was sitting with him. “One of the inhabitants of Paradise will ask Allah to allow him to cultivate the land. Allah will ask him, ‘Are you not living in the pleasures you like?’ He will say, ‘Yes, but I like to cultivate the land.’ ” The Prophet (ﷺ) added, “When the man (will be permitted he) will sow the seeds and the plants will grow up and get ripe, ready for reaping and so on till it will be as huge as mountains within a wink. Allah will then say to him, ‘O son of Adam! Take here you are, gather (the yield); nothing satisfies you.’ ” On that, the bedouin said, “The man must be either from Quraish (i.e. an emigrant) or an Ansari, for they are farmers, whereas we are not farmers.” The Prophet (ﷺ) smiled (at this)”.
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I don’t see any angels complaining or being jealous.
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Operative word “angels”.
Not humans 🙂
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No eye has seen, or ear has heard, or mind has conceived, what God has in store for those that love him.
So sad that muslims damn themselves with their so low expectations of God. As if God couldn’t come up with something better than porkies or weekend at bernies for all eternity.
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wrong God. Not one “Who”. One What.
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It’s sad that Christians believe in a Triune God, all 3 of whom doesn’t understand what it’s creation wishes for. Allah (swt) certainly knows his creation.
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@TheAscetic
“God also created the desire for partner when he created man. He created Eve after he created Adam (ra) . Wasn’t God sufficient for Adam (as)?”
it depends on the tradition. In the Bible, Adam was created to be on earth and lead an earthly life. Desire for food, partner etc will be a part of this reality. But as the New Testament teaches, the saved person exist in a new and spiritual reality. To desire sex, food, houses etc doesn’t make sense in a reality where humans supposedly have found complete peace to exist in a spiritual state in God’s presence.
Other religions and philosophies similarity teaches how when man reaches his full potential the material and bodily desires no longer define him.
It is only islam and judaism that to my knowledge stresses so much on getting married and having sex, even in heaven!
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The NT speaks of people being raised in bodily form, and presumably still human. Jesus is portayed in his resurrected state as eating food.
We are not angels.
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@poitierfrance,
In our tradition, a saved person is not someone who is free from the desires that God created in us. But, one who enjoys those desires only in the ways in which it was permitted by God. We have a material body and a spiritual soul, both of these ‘carry forward’ to our eternal life. God has promised us that he will satisfy both the needs of the body and the soul in our eternal life. To me that is the ideal thing a ‘human’ being will want in the afterlife. There is no better scenario than that.
“It is only islam and judaism that to my knowledge stresses so much on getting married and having sex, even in heaven! ”
The religions closer to the truth emphasis it. If the above mentioned were bad, then God wouldn’t have established the continuity of mankind on Earth by the above means. He could have easily created 7 billion+ Adam/Eve in a split second. Only some twisted religions teach these as bad, as they are indirectly questioning God for making marriage/physical relations as part of the creation process.
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@TheAscetic
Christianity and some other religions, (hinduism, buddhism etc) state that there are two dimensions of existence. The first is The corporeal dimension of existence. It is therefore expected that we live by our physical and biological reality her on earth. This include desiring material wealth, beautiful women, offsprings etc.
The second dimension of existence is the the spiritual, other wordly. This is also the ultimate reality according to all religions. Existence on this dimensions is subject to a different kind of existence than exist here on earth. According to these religions this ultimate reality and existence there is our real purpose and where we will find true fulfillment.
It does not make sense that the same biological processes that make someone here on earth desire a woman operate in a spritual dimension.
What is natural and unnatural depends on the context and God is the final authority on that.
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@poitierfrance,
It does not make sense that the same biological processes that make someone here on earth desire a woman operate in a spritual dimension.
What is natural and unnatural depends on the context and God is the final authority on that.
I say;
Do you forget we humans have both body and soul in heaven after resurrection? as testified by Jesus resurrection? With him(Jesus) eating food? We keep reminding you but you keep forgetting. Well, it is your Christian faith that does not make sense and contradict itself.
Jesus was resurrected in a bodily form and ate bread and you are now contradicting that and accepting the Hindu and other pagan concepts of incarnations.
Islam is in conformity with a resurrected Jesus with body and eating bread but you are in conformity with pagan Hindu etc. of incarnations.
God final authority in the Quran and Torah says we will still be humans in heaven and will enjoy what we are enjoying here but in a much much better way and all the bad ways will be removed. What is wrong with that? To be like God? or God? You must be joking. We can never ever be God.
Thanks.
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“Existence on this dimensions is subject to a different kind of existence than exist here on earth”
Tell me does any human being wishes to be something else in the afterlife, if given a choice ? So, if we don’t desire to be something else by our own very nature, then why do you think God would create an eternal life which we don’t wish to be ?
“According to these religions this ultimate reality and existence there is our real purpose and where we will find true fulfillment. ”
If the ultimate reality and existence takes away our identity and relationships on Earth, then I don’t find it to be truly fulfilling.
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@TheAscetic
“If the ultimate reality and existence takes away our identity and relationships on Earth, then I don’t find it to be truly fulfilling.”
Christianity and the eastern religions argue that our true identity lies in union with God. What we are here on earth is not part of real human identity. In christianity this is explained in terms of original sin. In the eastern religions, it is the result of spiritual ignorance.
Islam takes the human as he is, and promises him what he wants in this current state of nature.
I understand why this can be appealing. But i personally find other religions and philosophies on the nature of man and the afterlife to be more true.
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Is Heaven not a place of peace and joy, where we can make our dreams come true? (tea, biscuits, dare I say it. Coffee?)
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YES.
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Darthimon this may be a sensitive question but are you a dunker? i.e. dunk the biscuit into the tea/coffee?
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Patrice, I must ask you to be very careful when asking personal questions. People have the right to privacy. Thank you.
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I am wild and go for both dunked and dry.
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“Is Heaven not a place of peace and joy, where we can make our dreams come true? (tea, biscuits, dare I say it. Coffee?)”
Exactly! This is so natural to think like that.
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I see that biscuits are very popular however has anyone considered dunking chocolate bars? I have tried this and it is surprisingly good!
Abdullah are you a dunker as well?
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Whispa bars become straws. Except they melt from the inside out as you suck hot tea through them.
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an abomination!
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It doesn’t work with creme eggs.
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Egyptians put sugar cubes under their tongue and drink tea until the cube dissolves
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I don’t like sugar in tea. Coffee yes, tea no.
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Arab/Persian/Turkish tea is very different to PG Tips thus the inclusion of sugar cubes is not so strange, however this is also why Egyptian dentists are very wealthy!
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I think the smell of combusting chops and sausages belongs in steakhouses, not in Heaven.
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Sometimes I drink the half-melted mushy biscuit.
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waste not want not
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Open question- if same sex attraction in Islam is not a sin, can we presume that in Islamic jannah there will be people with SSA walking around?
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why do you presume this? And are you looking forward to a sexless celibate existence for all your eternity?
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Because it is not a sin, and if sexual feelings and emotions are a part of jannah, then it makes sense.
What do you think?
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Paulus
wr
Jesus ate food after resurrection. It does not mean Jesus has to STEAL food and ate it end enjoy the pleasures of eating after resurrection. Some of the enjoyment we have here as humans could be in heaven and it will be much better and the bad side of it will be removed. SSA will be removed in heaven because we are not in heaven for test. We are there to be with our creator and to ENJOY! ENJOY!! AND ENJOY!!!.
Those who do not want enjoyment in heaven must suffer because the opposite of enjoyment is suffering.
We are on earth for test, that is why there is SSA and illegal sex like the pastor in the video, most pastors like Jimmy Swaggart and Church Fathers are enjoying.
In heaven bad things will be removed but we are going to enjoy and some of the enjoyments are copies of what we enjoy here in a much, much better ways. We are still humans in heaven.
Thanks.
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Paul,
Do you agree with Intellect thatSSA is just a test- a bad thing that will not be a part of jannah?
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In the Study Quran, there’s an essay written by Sh Hamza Yousef. I recommend everyone to read it.
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yes it is excellent
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Let’s look at it philosophically. If Paradise is pleasure or all things pleasurable are in Paradise, then there’s nothing incoherent about eating, drinking or even having sex in Paradise since these are all pleasure inducing activities. It makes more sense when you realize that we will continue to be humans, albeit transformed humans, in Paradise so that our need for pleasure will persist. After all, humans are pleasure maximizing creatures. Compare this to the Christian concept of heaven where you lose your humanity and become mindless angels.
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What do you mean by transformed humans? Doesn’t that mean that we will lose some of our humanity that define us here on earth?
Christianity also teaches we will be transformed in heaven. That will change our notion of pleasure. This is the state where we realise what real pleasure is. it will not consist of what is the physical pleasures.
Islam i am afraid stress to much everything that has to do with sex and sexual pleasure. My theory is that this is so because this religion arose in an oriental context. Oriental cultures are rampant with glorification of sensual pleasures. No wonder harems only arose in oriental kingdoms. Amongst greek and romans, orientals were known for exccesive sensuality.
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‘What do you mean by transformed humans?’
Humans who will live forever.
‘Christianity also teaches we will be transformed in heaven. That will change our notion of pleasure. This is the state where we realise what real pleasure is. it will not consist of what is the physical pleasures.’
Pleasure is a purely physical phenomenon as is pain. The Islamic concept of Paradise makes sense since it involves physical beings, and physical beings partake in pleasure. You believe people will live as spirits in heaven. Spirits aren’t physical beings and as such they can’t experience pleasure or pain. The Christian heaven is contradictory.
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“Islam i am afraid stress to much everything that has to do with sex and sexual pleasure. ”
No. It’s the Christian apologists who thinks so. Interestingly, I haven’t seen Christians criticizing any other aspect of Islamic concept of heaven other than this one. Probably they are more obsessed of it and worried about lack of it in heaven. There is so much information about heaven and hell in Qur’an and marriage in heaven is only one of the many many things.
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poitierfrance
February 14, 2017 • 11:10 pm
You said;
Islam i am afraid stress to much everything that has to do with sex and sexual pleasure. My theory is that this is so because this religion arose in an oriental context. Oriental cultures are rampant with glorification of sensual pleasures. No wonder harems only arose in oriental kingdoms. Amongst greek and romans, orientals were known for exccesive sensuality.
I say;
The sex started in heaven and in the Bible. May be you forgot when Adam and Eve knew their nakedness in heaven not on earth.
If a man and a woman knew their nakedness, what is the remaining thing? This knowledge happened in heaven and not on earth. For you to tell me it is illogical to have sex in heaven. It is logical if Adam and Eve knew they were naked in heaven and not on earth.
When Adam and Eve were created in heaven, they were created as humans in heaven not the creatures the Christians will like us to be.
Islam is in conformity with the Bible itself, in that humans were in heaven before and there is nothing wrong if the after life we will continue to be humans in heaven,
Christianity has borrowed the pagan Hindus and Greek philosophies where humans will be reincarnated in to different creatures in heaven.
Islam says no. We will still be humans in heaven but the bad part of our existence will be removed in heaven.
In Genesis 2 it says that Adam and Eve were both originally naked, “but they were not ashamed.” After they ate of the Tree of Knowledge, we are told that “the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked.”
Adam and his wife ate a sweet fruit in heaven according to the Bible. Was it not so? So, it means there is enjoyment, pleasures, sex, happiness etc. in heaven that are much much better than the ones here on earth.
You see how Islam is more logical than Christianity? and Islam is in conformity with Biblical narrative rather than pagan Hinduism and Greek mythology of different incarnated human beings as you claim?
Do you want us to go to heaven and become zombies? without pleasures. Being with God does not take away our human pleasures because we are not God and can never ever be God.
Thanks
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@kmak
“Spirits aren’t physical beings and as such they can’t experience pleasure or pain. The Christian heaven is contradictory.”
Aside from islam, in christianity and the major eastern religions, there is the belief that union with the divine is the ultimate purpose of our existence. When this is achived man finds complete peace and satisfaction.
The desire for sex and other material things makes only sense in a world where there is no true peace and satisfactions. Therefore humans here on earth wants to achive that empitness or proximate to that satisfaction by seeking a life partner, wealth etc.
In God’s kingdom, where humans achive what is their ultimate purpose such desires no longer makes sense. Since i am not a muslim and hence i do not assume islam to be divinely revealed, at least in not all of it’s aspect, i can only wonder why such corporeal pleasures are so important in this religion.
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http://middle-east-analysis.blogspot.co.uk/2010/07/muslims-debate-is-there-sex-in-heaven.html
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Interesting article Musa.
The imams who argued that sexual pleasure in paradise is indeed real (though of different degree than on earth) were more persuasive by providing the relevant Quranic and hadith passages in my opinion.
However that other gentleman who took the contrary position, although not providing good scriptural proof and exegesis, i agree more on a philosophical basis.
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poitierfrance…my sentiments also. I think it’s something we must put on the ‘backburner’ (with many others) labelled ‘Allahualim’.
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@poitierfrance
February 16, 2017 • 1:09 pm
@kmak
“Spirits aren’t physical”
The desire for sex and other material things makes only sense in a world where there is no true peace and satisfactions. Therefore humans here on earth wants to achive that empitness or proximate to that satisfaction by seeking a life partner, wealth etc.
In God’s kingdom, where humans achive what is their ultimate purpose such desires no longer makes sense. Since i am not a muslim and hence i do not assume islam to be divinely revealed, at least in not all of it’s aspect, i can only wonder why such corporeal pleasures are so important in this religion.
I say;
But Christians always accuse Muslim God of not having relation and relationship because their(Christian) God has other persons like Son, Holy Spirit to relate with and love because he is God of love. You forgot that your philosopher is a slap in the “face” of Christianity not Islam. If having relationship is achieving emptiness, then the Christian God is in emptiness, hence generating a Son and finding a Holy Spirit somewhere to relate with and love. It is the same concept to humans seeking life partner, wealth etc.
If the Christian God can have a Son who is not a Father to make Him loving God, why can’t human have Father, Son, etc. in heaving to love? If such desires like sex or love no longer makes sense in heaven, then Christianity no longer makes sense from the beginning to the end because the Christian God has others to relate with and love in heaven. Agreed?
True peace?
What is true peace? and what to you understand by true peace?
What ever peace is, whether true or false peace, it does not take away what God has created us in heaven with and that is knowing our nakedness in heaven and not earth.
You can assume what you think Islam is, and I am glad you are here to brainstorm your assumptions and we will correct you were you erred.y
Adam and Eve have desires in heaven with God providing them garden in heaven to enjoy themselves. Was it not so? It is pagan religions that perceive heaven to be something different other than what God have initially provided to Adams and Eve in heaven and that is desires and enjoyment in the garden of Eden.
Thanks.
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@Intellect
Hey, you raised some good points. Let me just correct something i wrote that seems to have informed your response. I did not mean to say “achive emptiness” but to achive satisfaction or come close to it.
I am not a christian. I defen the christian idea of heaven because i agree in general that that the afterlife is solely spiritual. That means i also defend other religions with this view.
I am open minded so i don’t subscribe to any dogma. I belive in a Creator and that there is a spiritual reality. I believe this spiritual reality can manifest itself in different cultures and religions. That is why we can find such great spiritual figures in different religions.
So my position is closer to what is called the perennial philosophy.
That also mean that i don’t have to believe that humans originated with Adam and Eve. As far as my understanding of the bible is concerned, Adam and Eve were created here on earth.
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Why are you not a Muslim?
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Because i don’t see why the islamic worldview is more true than anyother out there. What makes it more true than hinduism or buddhism or the other abrahamic religions for that matter?
The arguments i have seen so far don’t convince me. The so called scientific arguments are dubious at best. As far as the Quran’s own claim to be perfectly preserved i remain undecided as i have not studied anything related to its textual history.
Then there are issues dealing with jihad and non-muslims that i find morally questionable. This is also the case with the life of Muhammed.
I know there are great works out there by some superb islamic scholars dealing with those issues and responding to criticism. I am still in the process of reading their works and it should be interesting to see how my views have changed in regard to those matters.
I also have a problem with the claim of exclusivity that islam makes (and this true of the other abrahamic religions), because i still find it intellectually hard to accept this position for various reasons.
There are many other issue i could bring but these are some of them.
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@poitiefrance
You said;
That also mean that i don’t have to believe that humans originated with Adam and Eve. As far as my understanding of the bible is concerned, Adam and Eve were created here on earth.
I say;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_of_Eden
If you are defending something i.e. Christian, Islam, Hinduism etc. it is incumbent on you to study and research what you are defending very well before putting your case forward.
Garden of Eden or Garden of God is in heaven and not on earth. Adam and Eve were there in heaven and created in heaven.
Do you know the FALL in Christianity? It is when God got angry with Adam and Eve and sent them to earth from heaven. If you said they were created on earth, then there would be no FALL in Christianity because Adam and Eve were created on earth anyway.
You can give me some proof of where Adam and Eve were created. The Quran clearly said Adam and Eve were created in heaven and the Bible said the Garden of Eden i.e. paradise and hence the Christian FALL. Muslims do not believe in the Fall but believed Allah sent us on earth for test and obedience to Him. Later we will return to paradise/heaven and that is where we belong because Adam and Eve were created there(heaven).
If you look at the Christian description of Garden of God in the Bible, you will see the description of enjoyment, desires, sex, etc. with naked people. Just look at the pictures on the link I sent.
To say heaven is not a place of pleasures, enjoyment, sex etc. is to contradict Christian belief of heaven. Christian heaven is a place of desires too but the Quran goes deep to explain some of the enjoyment and the Christian Garden of Eden/God(heaven) is there to prove human desires and enjoyment.
Thanks.
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@Intellect
I think christianity differs from islam on this. I know The Quran speak of the creation of the first humans in paradise. But the bible seems to locate the Garden of Eden here on earth. Of course in Christianity you have the doctrine of original sin. When the first humans sins the world began to decay.
I found this quote on the conservative evangelical site gotquestions.org: “If the Tigris and Euphrates mentioned are the same rivers by those names today, that would put the Garden of Eden somewhere in the Middle East, likely in Iraq.”
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“I am not a christian. I defen the christian idea of heaven because i agree in general that that the afterlife is solely spiritual”
It’s a stupid idea.
In Quran, the argument by the most against disbelievers about the resurrection is about this issue. They objected about how they can get resurrected while their bones would disappear after death.
Quran answers them by urging them to reflect on the first creating. The ONE who created you in the first time is definitely able to get you back from the death for the second time.
Quran commands us to reflect on the example of the rain and the plants in general. However, if it happaned that you were living in a desert, you would see everything is dead literally, yet after rain, miraculously everything gets a life and starts blooming.
Quran commands us to reflect on the sleeping. It’s a model of the death and resurrection.
I have watched the ( frozen planet) lately which is a series released by bbc. It’s amazing. Some type of caterpillars in the Winter died somehow, yet in the Spring, it backs to life again.
In Islam, this is called (Al kitab Alkouny) the universal book. Allah commands us to “read” the signs of this univers as we read the Quran.
BTW, the main theme of Jesus’ miracles is about this subject. Becuse many jews had given up that there’s a life after death, Jesus’ miracles came to destroy that stupid idea. His birth without a father to get people think about the first human being who got created without parents. Therefore, we have to know that God can create us again after death bodily.
Jesus’ miracle of raising the dead ones, it gives the same lesson.
In Quran, the clay birds that Jesus made as well. All those miracles were about one thing which is the life hearafter bodily which is one of the six articles of faith in Islam.
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Poitierfrance is right. Adam and Eve were created on the earth; and the Garden of Eden was on earth, (Genesis 2:10-17), somewhere in the area of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. But because of the fall, and the results of the fall (Genesis 3:23-24) and the Cherubim (singular = cherub = a kind of angel) with flaming swords to keep people from entering it; it seems to be metaphoric language for either that Garden to have disappeared or now be in another dimension (invisible) or taken up to heaven.
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@poitierfrance and Ken Temple
Christian contradiction.
“Adam and Eve were driven out of the Garden and thrown to earth”
-How can someone be thrown to earth, when he is already on earth?
-How can someone be sent to earth from a garden that is on earth?
-How can someone fall on earth when he was already on earth?
-How can God throw Adam and Eve on earth as a place to suffer their disobedience when the Garden of Eden is already on earth?
It is illogical to fall on earth when you are already on earth. By earth, I mean our realm of life. Our realm of life is what is considered as earth. If Garden of Eden is in Lebanon or Iraq, it is illogical to claim someone has fallen on “earth” -our realm of life from someone. Because he is still on earth our realm of life.
Islam makes sense and Christianity full of contradiction. Even if the Garden of Eden is on earth and in a different dimension, it is illogical to say one has fallen on earth our realm of life, when in fact he is in the same realm of life.
We and the Jinns are on this same earth but on different dimensions and so it will be illogical to say a Jinn has fallen on earth or a man has fallen on earth because he sees the other realm of life. We have magicians, scientist and thinkers who could see other realm of life on this earth and it is illogical to say they are fallen.
How about fallen angels in Christianity? are they also fallen from Iraq or Lebanon(Garden of Eden)? Angels we know are from heaven with God. But Christians say the bad ones are fallen too. Fallen from where? Iraq or Lebanon? or from heaven? as is logical that both could be fallen from heaven. I do not believe in fall anyway. I believe we are here on earth fpr test and obedience to God because of our choice and freewill.
The Bible did not mention of any multi dimension. Christians will always blame Muslims for believing in another dimension of the Jinns but here we are they are defending their FALL as another dimension.
So, when God walked in the Garden of Eden on earth, who was there in heaven.
We have not seen any Garden of Eden on earth.
It is ok. for Christians to believe this because they believed God is 1 but 3 as well. Islam makes sense here because Adam and Eve were created in paradise and sent to earth for test and obedience to God and will return to paradise and those disobedient will be punished in hell fire.
Main article: Ezekiel’s cherub in Eden
In Ezekiel 28:12–19 the prophet Ezekiel the “son of man” sets down God’s word against the king of Tyre: the king was the “seal of perfection”, adorned with precious stones from the day of his creation, placed by God in the garden of Eden on the holy mountain as a guardian cherub. But the king sinned through wickedness and violence, and so he was driven out of the garden and thrown to the earth, where now he is consumed by God’s fire: “All the nations who knew you are appalled at you, you have come to a horrible end and will be no more.” (v.19)
Thanks.
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“Intellect” wrote:
How can someone be thrown to earth, when he is already on earth?
They were not thrown down to the earth in Genesis or the Bible. The “fall” does not refer to “falling to the earth”, but rather “falling away from the glory of God” – Romans 3:23
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Adam was not created om earth. Quran is clear about this.
So far christians have not provided any reason why we should not have pleasure in the bodily level.
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“Adam was not created om earth. Quran is clear about this.”
Irrelevant. Nobody denies what the Quran claims. But you can’t prove it.
“So far christians have not provided any reason why we should not have pleasure in the bodily level.”
Islam seems to be the only religion that have a very carnal and materalistical view on heaven. In this regard it is much closer to Greco-roman mythology. There is a higher view, more spiritual view in the teachings of eastern philosophies. Have you looked into Buddhism for instance?
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You said;
Islam seems to be the only religion that have a very carnal and materalistical view on heaven. In this regard it is much closer to Greco-roman mythology. There is a higher view, more spiritual view in the teachings of eastern philosophies. Have you looked into Buddhism for instance?
I say;
Jesus ate bread after resurrection with both spirit and body. If Jesus can eat after resurrection, it means there is materialistic view on heaven for Jesus to eat after resurrection. In this regard Christianity is much closer to Greco-roman mythology and it contradict itself as well.
If there is no satisfaction of eating after death why was Jesus eating food? If Jesus can eat food after death, we can have sex after death.
I also mentioned that the Christian God Himself exists in a materialistic view point in heaven with others he can relate to and love. If the Christian God Himself can have materialistic view point of relation and love in heaven, it is in line with Muslims having materialistic viewpoint of love, relation and sex in heaven.
You are wrong to say Islam is the only religion that have canal and materialistic view point on heaven when Jesus ate food to satisfy himself with materialistic viewpoint after death.
Christians just like Greeko-Roman mythology believed God has a Son and that Son has a human mother just like the Greeko-Roman gods comming down on eath to have sex with humans and produce hybrid God Men like aphrodesia the goddess of love and the goddess of sex.
Remember, the Christian God has a material Son(Jesus Christ). If material and spiritual do not mix, why would the Christian God mix himself with the material Son(Jesus Christ)? and through birth that has to do with sex.
The Christian God Himself came through canal and materialistic view point, remember?
Thanks.
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poitierfrance
I’m interested to know why you think that Islam is ‘carnal and materialistic’ for asserting that people will experience similar pleasures in heaven as they would on earth?
Forgive me if i’m wrong but you seem to be asserting that the spiritual and material cannot coincide at all and therefore God would want none of it in heaven. But this begs the question that if God thought it so bad why create it in the first place?
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Hey Patrice
The description of heaven in the Quran speak more about the sensual pleasures and materalistic desires than it does about it’s spiritiual aspects. Compare this with, let’s say Christianity were heaven is mostly spoken of believers union with God. There is almost no reference or attempt to appeal to the base desires of humans on the subject of heaven.
So for sure islam appears much more carnal, especially in comparison with christianity and eastern religions ( hinduism, buddhism etc).
There seems to be an universal agreement amongst the great philosophers as well as religions that the spiritual is superior to the material. They state that man highest potential lies in his spiritual and moral quality. When man achives that potential he finds completion and genuine inner peace. He no longer lives or feel the need for the base desires that is common for the common man.
Heaven therefore in this view is a place where this potential is reached. It simply does not make sense for someone in heaven to go around and think “oh i am here with God, it’s wonderful, i feel great peace and satisfaction but that girl over there is so beuatiful and it sure would be nice if i also could have a relationship with her”
I suggest you read st Augustine’s confession. If this spiritual peace produce such men on earth, imagine heaven!
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Patrice
It’s absurd to claim that allah is “unlike” anything in creation and also claim that being in its presence would be like something we experience on earth. The two notions are contradictory.
Furthermore, joy derived from being in allah’s presence must exceed anything we know on earth – that means sexual pleasure cannot exceed the joy of allah’s presence. Whoever says it does is denigrating allah.
“But this begs the question that if God thought it so bad why create it in the first place?”
If paganism is so bad, why did allah create it in the first place? Doesn’t “everything” come from this “allah” guy?
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poitier you sound some kind of gnostic.
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I wouldn’t say i am a gnostic, especially not in the sense of the gnostics of early christianity.
Infact i don’t practice any religion at the moment. I’ve had great interest in religion and spirituality since my teenage years and try to study and understand as much as i can. I also don’t deny the existence of God.
On this subject spirituality and materalism i would say that the teachings of eastern religions but also christianity appeals more to me for the reasons i have given on my comments.
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good luck
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poiterfrance
Thanks for your response
I think the main difference between Islam and Christianity ultimately comes down to its view of humanity, Christianity teaches we are basically corrupted by nature and thus need to be cleansed whereas Islam seeks to provide guidance for people to be able to live holy lives, each religion reflects this in their view of paradise because this is their vision of what the ideal world looks like. Appealing therefore to human desire is wrong only because they are seen as deficient in some way.
Why should we consider such desires to be base? Why should human desire for sex or food and drink be seen as something unacceptable for spirituality? The Qur’ans concern seems to me to be more about its abuse rather than the thing itself being bad.
Regarding Augustine i have read him! and therefore i can say with confidence that we should not romanticise him don’t forget that he was even after conversion someone who struggled tremendously with lust (he wouldn’t even talk to women out of fear he would sin) this was also someone who believed in forced conversion and that unbaptized infants were going to hell.
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Patrice
although i agree with you about christianity, remember that i also argue from the standpoint of the general spiritual traditions of mankind. Celibacy is viewed in a positive light by many great thinkers and in some major religions.
Now i think there is a good reason for that. We don’t have to believe that sex is inherently bad to recognize that something other than sex is superior and hence more desirable.
There are some great articles and book on celibacy. Some contains personal accounts of people who practice celibacy and they tell of their experience. Many say that the mental, spiritual and intellectual benefits were great. Among the benefits; less selfishness, a greater acute sense of details, increased overall focus, and deeper spiritual immersion.
There is something about the teaching of detaching yourself from your desires (not just sex) that simply conform you to the most sublime truths enunciated by mankind’s spiritiual tradition.
Islam began as a religion for the common people. In the beginning it only existed at that level. You belive in God, follow the rituals, marry and have babies. It was inevitable that the following centuries there would be somd muslim thinkers not satisfied with such a simply and carnal idea of religion, and hence was born sufism, Rumi, Attar etc who taught union with the divine greater than above all the carnal pleasures.
No wonder the idea of houris is not so prominent in their view of the afterlife. Houris occur in some sufi poems only to illustrate some spiritual points and not to state that they will have physical sex.
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Ken Temple
February 16, 2017 • 11:01 pm
“Intellect” wrote:
How can someone be thrown to earth, when he is already on earth?
They were not thrown down to the earth in Genesis or the Bible. The “fall” does not refer to “falling to the earth”, but rather “falling away from the glory of God” – Romans 3:23
I say;
ok. They were with God on Earth before falling out from the glory of God both on earth, because God walked with them in genesis. If they were glorified here on earth with God, then we can have our pleasures wherever we are glorified with God.
Christians always contradict themselves by saying Adam and Eve were sent to this earth to suffer the consequence for their action. Ken Temple has corrected Christians who do not know their religion. Ken said falling does not mean sending Adam and Eve to this world. Where is the Garden? No where and no proof. So, Islam has won here because it teaches that Adam and Eve were created in heaven and brought down to this world for test and obedience.
We do not need to provide a proof of Heaven or Garden in heaven on earth. It is Christians who have to proof that. That is logical. Any rational philosopher will be on Islam side that Adam and Eve were created in heaven.
God walked with Adam and Eve in the Garden. So His(God) and His Glory was right here on earth according to Ken. It does not make sense.
God and His Glory is in heaven. This earth is temporal place for us and God does not need to create His Glory and Heaven as Garden here on this temporal place with Adam and Eve and Angels. It does not make sense. Islam makes sense and it is the truth.
@poitierfrance
If God can be with us here on earth in his Glory were there is full sex, knowing our nakedness in front of Him with more desires at the Garden of Eden, we can have the same thing when we meet Him(God) in heaven. That is consistent. Any disagreement on this consistency of having sex in heaven is against God’s Kingdom and rather supporting Hindu and pagan incarnations of human beings as demi gods in the the hereafter.
We were having our sex with God here on earth when he was at the Garden of Eden with our Grand Father and Mother Adam and Eve and God showed them their nakedness in front of Him(God) and it is consistent to have sex when we meet Him(God) in heaven. Any disagreement is rejection of God’s Kingdom.
Thanks.
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Kev
February 17, 2017 • 10:59 am
Patrice
It’s absurd to claim that allah is “unlike” anything in creation and also claim that being in its presence would be like something we experience on earth. The two notions are contradictory.
Furthermore, joy derived from being in allah’s presence must exceed anything we know on earth – that means sexual pleasure cannot exceed the joy of allah’s presence. Whoever says it does is denigrating allah.
“But this begs the question that if God thought it so bad why create it in the first place?”
If paganism is so bad, why did allah create it in the first place? Doesn’t “everything” come from this “allah” guy?
I say;
Allah unlike anything else. That is true.Being in His presence does not make us Allah. Do you understand this simple logic? If we are not Allah in His presence, then having sex in His presence makes us different from Him. We will always be different from God no matter where we are. We are not zombies like angels and so will carry some of the pleasures we are having here in heaven but it will be more exciting in heaven than here. What is wrong with having your pleasures in front of God. It is all part of the package in glory of God or in God’s Kingdom.
The Bible talks about treasures, gardens etc. in God’s Kingdom. Why will you have treasure or garden in God’s Kingdom but to blame sex in God’s Kingdom?
When Adam and Eve were in the glory of God before the fall, they were in a garden full of trees, fruits, water, river etc. but in the presence of God and you do not criticize God for that because it is in the Bible. You hypocritically criticize the Quran for repeating the same thing. Shame.
Paganism is a desire and choice from an individual and legal sex is enjoyment. Legal sex is good and enjoyable but illegal without marriage and God’s without God’s sanction is bad.
Sex is good is sanctioned by God and there is nothing wrong with that if God sanctioned it.
Paganism is rejection of God and it is not good. The sex in heaven, rivers, fountains, etc. are all package in the presence of God because we are not zombies to stay still. When I am in heaven in the presence of God I will like to continue to be a human being with my free will to do what ever I want and that is the full glory of God. I do not want to be an angel who are like zomobies and do not have freewil and choice. Who tells you being in the presence of God will prevent us from our freewill?
The freewill and choice is the most honourable gift that God gave us and that made us different from other creatures and God will like to maintain that when we are in heaven in front of Him so all our choices is legalized by Him(God). Now some of our choices are not legal but in heaven all our choices is legal and we will have legal freewill in presence of God.
Thanks.
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Its not so much that sex in and of itself as it is an expression of the love and passion between two people joined together something so important that in the NT it is compared to the love of Christ and his church, Jesus also taught that Gods desire for humanity is marriage drawing on the example of Adam and Eve. Christian monasticism is something that developed much later and is something that opposes the Torah and Jesus’ teaching.
Islam and Judaism assert that people are quite capable of having a deep relationship with God while being married, going to work, and owning material possessions. I remember watching a video from a monk named Fr Lazarus who commented that it wasn’t because of strength that he became a monk but rather out of weakness because he couldn’t remain steadfast while living a normal life.
Can we honestly say that such a mentality is superior when one can succeed even amongst difficulty? There’s simply no need for it.
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Patrice my friend no one denies marriage. The great religions teach that God designed marriage and to make it possible he created human nature with sexual desires. They are fundamental in attraction towards the opposite sex.
The overwhelming majority of humans marry or at least have a relationship at some point in their lives. It is also appearent that lack of human partnership for a extended period of time becomes problematic. Most will feel a sense of emptiness and unsatisfaction. Part of the reason behind marriage and any human relationship for that matter seems to be to fill some of that emptiness.
It is here that the argument against sex in heaven comes in. For i ask, is it reasonable that humans will experience even a tiny bit of emptiness and unsatisfaction when they are in heaven with their Creator, the very source of all comfor and joy? So much so that even in heaven the sex and relationship must be there so that humans don’t get afflicted with what afflicts them here on earth of they are without it. This is where it does not make sense to me.
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Monasticism (in Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, and the celibacy rule for priests in RC is wrong) was a corruption of Christian teaching in the NT. All the apostles had wives except for the apostle Paul. See I Corinthians 9:1-5
9:1 Am I not free? Am I not an apostle?
. . .
3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we not have a right to eat and drink? 5 Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas? ”
I Corinthians 9:1, 3-5 ( I left out verse 2 only for space and emphasis, but anyone can go and read the whole passage)
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Jesus and Paul express a strong preference for celibacy, a choice that is ignored by evangelicals today.
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Only for people who have the gift of celibacy. ( 1 Corinthians 7:7-9)
And you ignored 1 Corinthians 9:1-5 that I showed you.
The norm is most people should marry. All other apostles except Paul married, and the qualifications for elders-bishops in 1 Timothy 3 (husband of one wife, a “one woman kind of a man”) and Titus 1 assumes that they are married. Singleness and being unmarried is rare, even in the NT.
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Ken
I am not at all surprised that you ignore the teaching of Jesus about celibacy (he recommends it) confirming what I said about evangelicals (they ignore it):
Matthew 19:12:
‘For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let anyone accept this who can.’
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I did not ignore that verse – I wrote it in my comment at 6:18pm – 2 minutes before yours (6:20pm) – my comment is further down, but was put up earlier. So you are wrong.
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Ken i think that verse refers specifically to gnostic groups who forbade their followers from marriage. The monastic culture is different however. They don’t force anyone to become a celibate. That vocation as the monks state must be a divine calling. That is also why the monks have several periods of testing before the viss are taken. The purpose is to find out if this is the person’s calling.
The monks do not forbid marriage in general amongst christians and hence you implying that they teach doctrines of demons was a little bit misplaced.
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@poitierfrance
Part of the reason behind marriage and any human relationship for that matter seems to be to fill some of that emptiness.
I say;
Having sex and love is not filling any emptiness but how God created us human and there is satisfaction, joy and love in relationship, that is why the Christian God created others like the Son and the Holy Spirit to relate with and love.
Sex and love is not filling any emptiness but our nature as humans and it is not going to diminish in heaven.
Thanks.
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Intellect wrote:
that is why the Christian God created others like the Son and the Holy Spirit to relate with and love.
wrong.
no christian believes God created the Holy Spirit and the Son; rather they existed from all eternity past with the Father – in One substance/essence and in spiritual relationship with one another. God is Spirit. John 4:23-24
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“Islam seems to be the only religion that have a very carnal and materalistical view on heaven. In this regard it is much closer to Greco-roman mythology. There is a higher view, more spiritual view in the teachings of eastern philosophies. Have you looked into Buddhism for instance?”
This passage doesn’t provide any evidence for its claims.
Islam presents the balance for the soul and the body both. There’s no contradiction, btw.
Have we said that you will not have a spiritual pleasure in paradise? We say that you will have both.
Then in which base you said ( there’s a higher view)? By which criteria you think that the eastern philosophy which is based on denying our identities as human beings to be a higher view? I think this view is not realistic. When christianity adopts this kind of philosophy which is not prophetic nor divinely, it ends up with scandals among its members.
However, in Islam it’s considered a good deed that you will be rewarded for to have sex with your wife, for example.
Then if you observed this word, you would find that the most people in this word who are soaked with materialism are the christians , jews, and even buddhists not muslims.
In Islam, materialism is not bad by itself. It depends on how you look at, and how you use it. I can qoute many hadiths to get the islamic perspective about this matter.
Providing a phislosphy which teachs that you can burn youself to reach the peak of spirsulatiy is not a reason for me, let alone to be a good reason to consider it as a ” higher view”. We don’t look forward eastern nor western philosophy while we have the Quran and Sunnah.
For Ken,
Jesus talked about paradise. Paradise has always been linked with physical things and gardens of Eden. Jesus promised a man to have a treasure in the kingdome of God. Why would Jesus give a such encouragement?
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“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ Luke 16
Sounds rather physical to me.
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poitierfrance
February 17, 2017 • 2:49 pm
Patrice
although i agree with you about christianity, remember that i also argue from the standpoint of the general spiritual traditions of mankind. Celibacy is viewed in a positive light by many great thinkers and in some major religions.
Now i think there is a good reason for that. We don’t have to believe that sex is inherently bad to recognize that something other than sex is superior and hence more desirable.
There are some great articles and book on celibacy. Some contains personal accounts of people who practice celibacy and they tell of their experience. Many say that the mental, spiritual and intellectual benefits were great. Among the benefits; less selfishness, a greater acute sense of details, increased overall focus, and deeper spiritual immersion.
There is something about the teaching of detaching yourself from your desires (not just sex) that simply conform you to the most sublime truths enunciated by mankind’s spiritiual tradition.
Islam began as a religion for the common people. In the beginning it only existed at that level. You belive in God, follow the rituals, marry and have babies. It was inevitable that the following centuries there would be somd muslim thinkers not satisfied with such a simply and carnal idea of religion, and hence was born sufism, Rumi, Attar etc who taught union with the divine greater than above all the carnal pleasures.
No wonder the idea of houris is not so prominent in their view of the afterlife. Houris occur in some sufi poems only to illustrate some spiritual points and not to state that they will have physical sex
I say;
Wee smokers, cocaine smokers, crack heads, voodoo and idol worshipers will tell you how amazing they view their spiritual journey. I do not think you will start to become a cocaine addict and a voodoo and idol priest to achieve the “high” spiritual level which you consider superior.u
Islam is stressing on both spiritual and phyisical excitements in heaven because we are created human beings with freewill and choice and that is the greatest gift from God to us and it will remain in heaven so we will have legal freewill and choice in heaven including sex, waters, rivers etc. like what was depicted in the Garden of Eden and God was present in His Glory and Adam and his wife both in God’s glory untill the fall according to Ken Temple.
So, it is consistent to have God sanctioned sex in the full glory of God in heaven. Denying this is to start sniffing cocaine and dancing in voodoo parade to achieve only spiritual desires which eastern Hindu etc. religion considers superior.
In Islam everything in the presence of God is superior and Islam talks about spirituality as well and our daily prayers attest to that. We are more spiritual than most religions.
Thanks.
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@Patrice
Let me also respond to some of your other comment. Jesus seems to mention celibacy in Matthew 19:9-12. Although true that he did not command, yet he did not forbid it either. To those men and women who chose this path i don’t think the New Testament condemns them.
Historically the monks and nuns played an important role in huma civilisation. Their minds and energy were devoted to preserving and copying texts. Many become important scholars in different fields. In the islamic kingdoms, christian monks often served in important offices of government and as medical advisers.
The common believer benefited much from the monks spiritual wisdom and insights.
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True, monks contributed a lot by way of preserving and copying sacred texts and other books.
But the making rules of forbidding marriage (1 Timothy 4:1-4 – the apostle calls that a doctrine of demons) for all ministers is the problem. (especially in Roman Catholic paradigm)
If the person has the gift of celibacy – per Matthew 19:11-12 – “only for those to whom it has been given”
and I Cor. 7:7-9 – each one has a special spiritual gift (charismata) . . . in this area, etc.
and if the person voluntarily wants to act upon that spiritual gift and remain unmarried; that is good.
It should never been made a rule, as in Roman Catholic history – because of 1 Cor. 9:1-5 and 1 Tim. 3 and Ttius 1 – even the ministers, elders, bishops, pastors, apostles were married – almost all get married.
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@poitierfrance
It is not only unmarried people who are spiritual. Some married people are spiritual. Muslims of the ancient Spain were Engineers, architects, scientist, etc. and they helped the Europeans with their knowledge. Muslims marry and have sex with their wives and so all these Muslim Engineers like Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khwarizmi, who was the brain behind algorithm and was named after by that algorithm and Ibn Sina and many more who helped modern day day to day activities of using computers, iphone, samsung android etc. married and had sex.
God did not favour those who do not have legal sex to those who have legal sex. In Islam having legal sex is better than not having it. Because you are blessed anytime you have legal sex with your wife. The Jewish physicians under Muslim rule were married Jews and there were not unmarried.
The Hinduism you are talking about has full of sex in its teachings with their God naked in male and female and you do not see that.
Thanks.
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@Intellect
No doubt many intellectuals were also muslims. I did not mean to say monks were the only intellectuals only that they served an important role in both the islamic and western civilization.
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Monks served important roles? And so what? Married Jews, Muslims, Christians etc who have sex with their wives also served a important roles in society. I gave some ancient examples, Current examples are married Bill Gates, Jawed Karim(founder of youtube, Steve Wozniak and Jobs of Apple who were not monks.
Thanks.
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poitierfrance said:
“Islam began as a religion for the common people. In the beginning it only existed at that level. You belive in God, follow the rituals, marry and have babies. It was inevitable that the following centuries there would be somd muslim thinkers not satisfied with such a simply and carnal idea of religion, and hence was born sufism, Rumi, Attar etc who taught union with the divine greater than above all the carnal pleasures”.
I’ve to disagree!
I’ve problem with the idea of elite people and common people. In fact, it’s not islamic by that sense. Those “common people” are the ones whom Quran commanded us to follow. Therefore, we believe that they were the best and the most knowledgeable men after the prophet ﷺ. Labeling men as “thinkers” doesn’t mean that they are closer to God than others.
Regarding sufism and its roots, I think it is a big topic. However, many islamic scholars have criticized this idea which is probably an eastern philosophy of denying your existence to reach some kind of ecstasy, then the truth would appear to you. Union with God according to that philosophy is a blasphemy according to Islam.
Moreover, you will not find the inner peace by these ideas. In contrast, most of them reached to a level of confusion and perplexity. it’s been reported from some of them his saying (I’d rather die with the belief of the old women in Islam) as a sign of his regret for wasting his age away from Quran and Sunnah.
The simplicity of Islam is one of its advantage. If you want to reach more with knowledge, it’s ok as long as your road is Quran and Sunnah.
What makes Islam be so attractive is that it goes smoothly with innate thinking. Sons of Adam have always been looking for the truth about the purpose of this life and why we are exist by complexity, majic, lies while the ruth is more simple than that. https://quran.com/6/71
Do you really think that our purpose in this life to be cursed till we accept that god died for us, then literally you can do whatever you want?
Do you really think that our purpose in this life to wait a messiah for chosen people to rule over us?
Do you really think that our purpose in this life to deny our reality as human beings?
Do you really think that our purpose in this life to promote for some “values” by naming them “normal values”, and fight for them though they are soaked with materialism and injustice.
https://quran.com/22/18
You said
“Then there are issues dealing with jihad and non-muslims that i find morally questionable. This is also the case with the life of Muhammed.”
With all honesty, if I were not a muslim, I would find this personality ( i.e the prophet) to be the most brilliant and attractive human being has ever been known in the human history. I cannot find a true experience and example more than him dealing with all issues of this life. I just cannot.
I hope to ask God the guidance. Ask Him! He hears you. Even if you find some difficulties about Islam, ask Him the guidance and the peace .
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@Abdullah
Just as people differ in degree in all attributes so do they differ in spirituality. By common people in this context i refer to all people whose level of devotion is not beyond mere faith in God, the establishment of rituals and the abiding to moral regulations.
There is nothing wrong with that. Infact it is good that religion also exist on the level of the common people. Not everyone is called to be a mystic. Not everyone have that inclination. But all need faith in God, moral values and rituals to remind them of the divine amidst a mundane living.
However it is clear that faith and spirituality just like any art and science have higher and lower levels. Someone who study math to a limited extent may not go beyond simple arithmetic rules and geometrical rules, while somebody else who devote more time and intensely so will end up on a higher level of mathematical skills solving complex problems.
Again there is nothing wrong the person who knows only basic math. But we have to recognize the difference between him and someone who can solve very complex mathematical knowledge. In a certain sense, there is no denying that he is superior.
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Who said that the mystic spirituality is more superior to begin with?!
I don’t agree with that. In fact, the results that those “elite people” got by this kind of spirituality were disaster for the soul.
The real elite people are those whom God has chosen to be his prophets, then the companions of those prophets. Those people whom I compared to your example of the one who has higher skills of math.
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