Isaiah 9:6 is one of the most favourite verse’s a Christian trinitarian loves to bring-up for the deity of Jesus. According to trinitarians they believe Isaiah 9:6 without doubt proves that the person that is mentioned is Divine and is “Yahweh in Flesh.” We have to take a look and see what does the Hebrew words “El Gibor” mean, is “El Gibor” (‘Mighty God’, trinitarian translation) only used for God alone? Have humans been called by that name i.e “El” and “Gibor?” We shall find out:
“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.” – Isaiah 9:6
If anyone just reads the above verse at face value it looks as if the person who is mentioned is indeed “God.” But if we take a closer look at the verse after a thorough examination, you would realise the verse does not say anything about the person being “God” at all! The words have been twisted and changed by trinitarians and made it out as if it saying the person is “God in flesh.”
Related Article:
Isaiah 7:14, Immanuel: Prophecy of Jesus?
1. Is the Hebrew word “El gibor” only used for God?
What does the word “El” mean? Does the word “El” refer to God alone? Here is the following meanings for “El” from a Christian website:
1) god, god-like one, mighty one
a) mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes
b) angels
c) god, false god, (demons, imaginations)
d) God, the one true God, Jehovah
2) mighty things in nature
3) strength, power [1]
Notice, the word “El” is NOT exclusively referred to Yahweh (God) alone. It is referred to ‘god-like’, ‘mighty men’, ‘men of rank’, ‘mighty heroes’ and even ‘angels’. If you read the following passage, Ezekiel 33:11, the term “El” is used for a King:
“Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast lifted up thyself in height, and he hath shot up his top among the thick boughs, and his heart is lifted up in his height; I have therefore delivered him into the hand of the mighty one (El) of the heathen.” – Ezekiel 33:11
Here, God (Yahweh) says he delivered the person in the “hand of the Mighty one” (el), i.e the Heathen king. Should we attribute divinity to the king, like the true “Elohim?” Obvious response from a Christian missionary is: “no he cannot be the true ‘God’, since he is a human being.” This verse (below) you will notice the word “giborim” used in Plural.
“By the swords of the mighty (giborim) will I cause thy multitude to fall, the terrible of the nations, all of them: and they shall spoil the pomp of Egypt, and all the multitude thereof shall be destroyed.” – Ezekiel 32:12
The following passage, has the words “El” and “gibor” together simultaneously:
“The strong (El) among the mighty (gibor) shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.” – Ezekiel 32:21 [2]
Notice how the above verse (Ezekiel 32:21) has the exact words as Isaiah 9:6, but in plural. Since the words “El” and “gibor” are used simultaneously together, should the people referred to be Divine like Yahweh? Isaiah 9:6, and Ezekiel are both the same, except in Ezekiel 32:21 it is used in plural. If Christian trinitarians are truthful and consistent, why don’t they write in their Bible translations “MIGHTY GODS” in capital letters for Ezekiel 32:21?
There are some trinitarians who will try to argue and say, ‘actually they are not ‘Gods’, since they were Gentiles, Heathen Kings.’ These type of arguments apologists cling on to have no basis whatsoever. It doesn’t matter if the people were not believers, gentiles or heathens etc. Fact of the matter remains they were called “Ele Giborim” (‘Mighty Gods’). If Apologists continue to say “Isaiah 9:6 proves the Child is God”, then Christian apologists, at-least be truthful with yourselves, and start making the heathen Kings GODS as well, since both passages, Isaiah 9:6, and Ezekiel 32:21 use the exact same words.
2. Isaiah 9:6 is not talking about a future prophecy
2. 1 JPS Isaiah 9:6 – For a Child has been born to us, a son has been given to us and authority has settled on his shoulders.
2. 2 NET Bible (2006) Isaiah 9:6 – For a child has been born to us, a son has been given to us. …
2. 3 The message Isaiah 9:6 – For a child has been born–for us! the gift of a son–for us! …
2. 4 Contemporary English version Isaiah 9:6 – A child has been born for us. We have been given a son…
2. 5 Lexham English Bible Isaiah 9:6 – For a child has been born for us; a son has been given to us. …
2. 6 New Century version Isaiah 9:6 – A child has been born to us; God has given a son to us. …
2. 7 The Empathised Bible Isaiah 9:6 – For, A Child, hath been born to us, A Son, hath been given to us…
2. 8 Young’s Literal Translation Isaiah 9:6 – For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us…
How can Isaiah 9:6 be a prophecy of Jesus if the incident already took place, before the coming of the Messiah (Jesus)? Read the words at the start, “has been born to us, a son has.” Something that happened before Jesus, how can a trinitarian try and claim that “this is a Prophecy of Jesus.” If something happened in the PAST, it happened in the past! You can’t try change its meaning and say, “this is a Prophecy of the future.”
3. What Scholars say on Isaiah 9:6:
3. 1 Reverend. G. Buchanan:
“–Mighty God]… the great (and) mighty God, Dt 10:17, Neh 9:32, Jer 32:18. The ambiguous of Ezekiel 32:21, the application of to Nebuchadnezzar in Ezekiel 31:11 and the fact, if it be such, that in the remaining three clauses of the name here the words are cstr. And gen., scarcely justify a departure from the obvious rendering mighty God in favour of god of a hero and still less a whittling down of the meaning of, to hero, so that the clause means no more than “mighty hero.” [3]
3. 2 T.R. Applebury and Paul T. Butler:
“This child is also called ‘el gibor’, Mighty God. Literally God-Hero. One who overcomes, a victor, would be appropriate synonyms.” [4]
Reading the above scholarly statements, when ‘El gibor’ is used in Isaiah 9:6, for the child it only means: – ‘Mighty Hero’ or ‘Mighty Warrior’. And this is the correct way of translating the verse.
If Evangelists keep on insisting that ‘Mighty God’ is the correct translation for Isaiah 9:6, then they have to be consistent and also apply the same criteria for Ezekiel 32:21, and write ‘Mighty Gods’ instead of ‘Mighty Warrior’ for the heathen Kings. Remember, as I showed earlier, Isaiah 9:6 and Ezekiel 32 :21 have both got the same Hebrew words (El Gibor – El giborim), but yet trintarians translate Isaiah 9:6 as ‘MIGHTY GOD’ for the child. Yet, when it comes to Ezekiel, they write ‘Mighty Warrior’. This is not being consistent. This is lying and deliberately misleading people.
The previous three Scholars quoted are not the only ones that disagree with trinitarian translations for Isaiah 9:6. There are many more Christian Scholars who also agree that Isaiah 9:6 when translated, it should be translated as ‘Mighty Hero’ or ‘Mighty Warrior’, not ‘Mighty God’!
3. 3 Biblical Scholar Arthur Samuel Peake:
“‘Mighty God’. Better, divine warrior, (Heb. El Gibbor, literally, a God of a warrior). The term ‘El’ was not exclusively used of beings believed to be really divine (x. 21) but was employed also of men in whom, as invested with godlike power or authority… The expression Divine warrior describes the child as endued with superhuman prowess.” [5]
3. 4 The revised English Bible who was planned and directed by representatives of:
The Baptist Union of Great Britain.
The Church of England
The Church of Scotland
The council of Churches of Wales
The Irish council of Churches
The London Yearly Meeting of the religious society of friends
The Methodist church of Great Britain
The Moravian Church in Great Britain and Ireland
The Roman Catholic Church in England and Wales
The Roman Catholic Church in Ireland
The Roman Catholic Church in Scotland
The Salvation Army
The United Reform Church
The Bible society
The National Bible Society of Scotland
Sixteen different Christian denominations, all came together and translated Isaiah 9:6:
“For a child has been born to us, a son is given to us; he will bear the symbol of dominion on his shoulder, and his title will be: Wonderful counsellor, Mighty Hero, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace” [6]
Sixteen different Christian denominations coming together and stating “el gibor” does not mean “Mighty God.” According to them”El gibor” means “Mighty hero” when used for Isaiah 9:6.
3. 5 Professor of Greek and New Testament, James Moffatt:
“For a child is born to us, a child has been given to us; the royal dignity he wears, and this the title bears – ‘A wonder of a counsellor, a divine hero, a father for all time, a peaceful prince’” [7]
In Jewish culture, if you read the Old Testament, there are many examples where people/prophets been called by “Godly” names. The Jewish study Bible:
- Isaiah in Hebrew means “The Lord saves.”
- Hezekiah means “The Lord strengthens.”
- Merodach-baladan (Isaiah 39:1) means “the god Marduk has provided an heir.”
Straight after giving these examples (above), the “JSB” says the following on Isaiah 9:6:
“The name given to the child in this verse (Isaiah 9) does not describe that child or attribute divinity to him.” [8]
3. 6 Adolph Ernst Knoch:
“Concordant Literal Version Isaiah 9:6 A son, he is given to us, and the chieftain-ship shall come to be on his shoulder and one shall call his name Marvelous counsel to the master shall he bring, unto the chief, well-being.” [9]
3. 7 Ferrar Fenton Bible translation:
“Isaiah 9:6 For a son has been born, a gift to us,- On his shoulder the princedom rests,- The wonderful Counsellor, call his NAME, GREAT LEADER, Time’s Father, the Prince of Peace! Now endless order and Peace shall spread O’er David’s Kingdom and throne.” [10]
3. 8 Charles Thomson Bible translation:
“Thomson’s Translation: Isaiah 9:5 away, and the rod which was over their neck. For he hath broken the rod of the exactor, as in the day of Madiam : for, with a renewal of friendship, they shall make compensation for every robe collected by deceit, and for every garment; and shall be willing to do so, if they were burned with fire : 6 because for us a child is born, and to us a son is given, whose government is on his own shoulder ; and his name is called, ” The Messenger of Great Counsel” For I will bring peace.” [11]
3. 9. The Septuagint LXX translated by Sir Lancelot C.L. Brenton:
“Isaiah 9:6 For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him. 7 His government shall be great, and of his peace there is no end: it shall be upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to support it with judgement and with righteousness, from henceforth and forever.” [12]
3. 10 Craig A. Evans:
“[cf. Isa 9:6], suggesting that the passage was understood in a messianic sense in the first century. The LXX seems to understand the passage in a messianic sense. We find in the Greek version a similar effort to AVOID applying to the Davidide divine epithets (‘and his name is called The Messenger of Great counsel’”).” [13]
We conclude from this section that Isaiah 9:6 should be translated as ‘Mighty Hero’ for the child. I have quoted more than 10 Scholars for the verse and they all agree that ‘Mighty Hero’ is the most appropriate translation for Isaiah 9:6.
4. Jesus: “Prince of Peace?”
4. 1 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35″For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household.” – Matthew 10:34-36
4. 2 “Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; 52 for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two, and two against three…” – Luke 12:51-52
4. 3 “And He said to them, “But now, let him who has a purse take it along, likewise also a bag, and let him who has no sword sell his robe and buy one.” – Luke 22:36
This next verse is very interesting for our readers! Jesus will come back to murder:
“But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’ ” – Luke 19:27
In the above verse, Jesus describes himself to a “King”. “e see from the passage when Jesus comes back the second time, whoever does not accept him as a King, he (Jesus) will slaughter them, mainly the Jews. How do we know Luke 19:27 is about Jesus, and that he will murder people for not accepting him as a King? Well let’s read the following Commentary on the Bible, by Mathew Henry. He writes:
“In the sentence passed upon them at his return: Those mine enemies bring hither, v. 27. When his faithful subjects are preferred and rewarded, then he will take vengeance on his enemies, and particularly on the Jewish nation, the doom of which is here read. When Christ had set up his gospel kingdom, and thereby put reputation upon the gospel ministry, then he comes to reckon with the Jews; then it is remembered against them that they had particularly disclaimed and protested against his kingly office, when they said, We have no king but Cæsar, nor would own him for their king. They appealed to Cæsar, and to Cæsar they shall go; Cæsar shall be their ruin. Then the kingdom of God appeared when vengeance was taken on those irreconcilable enemies to Christ and his government; they were brought forth and slain before him. Never was so much slaughter made in any war as in the wars of the Jews. That nation lived to see Christianity victorious in the Gentile world, in spite of their enmity and opposition to it, and then it was taken away as dross. The wrath of Christ came upon them to the uttermost (1 Thess. ii. 15, 16), and their destruction redounded very much to the honour of Christ and the peace of the church. But this is applicable to all others who persist in their infidelity, and will undoubtedly perish in it. Note, [1.] Utter ruin will certainly be the portion of all Christ’s enemies; in the day of vengeance they shall all be brought forth, and slain before him. Bring them hither, to be made a spectacle to saints and angels; see Josh. x. 22, 24. Bring them hither, that they may see the glory and happiness of Christ and his followers, whom they hated and persecuted. Bring them hither, to have their frivolous pleas overruled, and to receive sentence according to their merits. Bring them, and slay them before me, as Agag before Samuel. The Saviour whom they have slighted will stand by and see them slain, and not interpose on their behalf. [2.] Those that will not have Christ to reign over them shall be reputed and dealt with as his enemies. We are ready to think that none are Christ’s enemies but persecutors of Christianity, or scoffers at least; but you see that those will be accounted so that dislike the terms of salvation, will not submit to Christ’s yoke, but will be their own masters. Note, Whoever will not be ruled by the grace of Christ will inevitably be ruined by the wrath of Christ.” [14]
Luke 19:27, contradicts Isaiah 9:6-7:
“Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.” – Isaiah 9:6-7
Isaiah 9:6-7 says that the person will be called “Prince of Peace”, and that “Peace there will be no end”. Going further on the verse states, “establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever.”
How could Jesus be the Prophesied Prophet in Isaiah 9:6, when he never came for Peace? Remember, it says he will reign forever in PEACE. Now we know Jesus will come back and slaughter people for not accepting him as a “King” over them. What sort of peaceful ruler is that, when he will be slaughtering people just for not accepting him as a “King?” As we have read the evidences, it is clear that Isaiah 9:6 cannot be a Prophesy of Jesus, since it contradicts verses from the New Testament
Br. Ibn Anwar made some beautiful arguments against “Prince of Peace” arguments Christians love bring up. Visit his article here: http://unveiling-christianity.org/2008/10/25/a-study-of-isaiah-96/
5. There is “one God” and there is none else besides Him:
The old Testament rejects the “Trinity”. It clearly states there is no god besides God, there is nothing equal to God. We see a lot of missionaries try justify Isaiah 9:6 as a bound rock foundation that God is a “Triune God.” If you take a closer look at the Old Testament, God (Yahweh) makes it clear that there is “no one besides him.” There is no Jesus, No Holy Spirit, just God! Read the following verses that teach pure Monotheism:
- “To whom will you compare me? Or who is my equal?” says the Holy One.” – Isaiah 40:25
- “I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me” – Isaiah 45:5
- “I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.” – Isaiah 43:11
- “Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.” Isaiah 44:8
- “Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me…” – Isaiah 46:9
- “Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.” – Hosea 13:4
Conclusion:
I went over Isaiah 9:6 thoroughly, the verse in no way refers to the child mentioned as being “God.” I showed evidences that people were called ‘Ele Giborim.’ None of the trinitarian Bible translators use the word “Mighty Gods” for the Heathen Kings in Ezekiel 32:21. This shows that Christian trinitarians have deceptively translated the words in Isaiah 9:6, to elevate the divinity of Jesus in the Old testament! Last but not least, I showed that Isaiah 9:6 could not be a Prophecy of Jesus, since it clearly states that the ruler will ‘REIGN FOREVER IN PEACE’. Meaning, he would not kill people. But as I showed, Jesus will come back and slaughter innocent people, just for not accepting him as ‘King’ over them. This Shows that the verse being often cited by trintarians has nothing to do with Jesus nor is the child in any way Divine.
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References:
[1] http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H410&t=KJV
[2]http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=mighty%2A+H410&t=KJV
[3] The international critical commentary on the Holy scripture of the Old and New Testament, Reverend. G. Buchanan, professor of Hebrew, page 173
[4] T.R. Applebury and Paul T. Butler Bible study text Book series: Isaiah, volume 1. page 173
[5] Arthur Samuel Peake A commentary on the Bible) 1920. page 443
[6] The revised English Bible with Apocrypha, page 497
[7] http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/dr-james-moffatt-on-isaiah-96-and.html
[8] The Jewish study Bible, page 802
[9] Adolph Ernst Knoch, Concordant Literal Version http://www.concordant.org/version/
[10] Ferrar Fenton Bible http://thetencommandmentsministry.us/ministry/ferrar_fenton/bible/425
[11] Thomson’s Translation Charles Thomson’s English Translation of the Greek Septuagint (LXX) Bible http://thetencommandmentsministry.us/ministry/charles_thomson/isaiah
[12] The Septuagint LXX: Greek and English by Sir Lancelot Charles Lee Brenton (1807-1862) originally published by Samuel Bagster & Sons, Ltd., London, 1851] http://www.ccel.org/bible/brenton/
[13] Craig A. Evans. Jesus and His Contemporaries: Comparative Studies, page 174
[14] http://www.ccel.org/ccel/henry/mhc5.Luke.xx.html
Categories: Christianity
Blogging Theology 
This guy is a bigger joke and more dishonest than Muhammad, which is why he will never debate his garbage against any of us. Here is my rebuttal to another joke like him who tried to refute the implication of Jesus being called the Mighty God.
BEGIN
What about the other so-called mighty gods?
Further attempts have been made by Muslim propagandists to deny that Isaiah 9:6 identifies the Messiah as the Mighty God. One such Muslim neophyte is Sam Zaatari who, in his desperation, appeals to the eisegesis of Unitarian “Christians” to argue that El Gibbor really means “Mighty Hero”! (*)
For instance, Zaatari’s source appeals to Ezekiel 31:11 and 32:12 to show where the word El Gibbor (as well as its plural) is used in relation to others. Here, Zaatari seems to be mistaken since Ezekiel 31:11 does not use El Gibbor but simply El.
“I will give it into the hand of a mighty one (el) of the nations. He shall surely deal with it as its wickedness deserves. I have cast it out.” Ezekiel 31:11
He must have also meant Ezekiel 32:21, not 12 since this latter verse uses the word gibborim, not eley gibborim which is the plural form of El Gibbor.
By appealing to these passages Muslims such as Zaatari think that they have found a way of refuting the doctrine of the Trinity and the OT witness to the absolute Deity of the Lord Jesus.
Yet there are several problems with this desperate approach, not the least of which is just because there may be other so-called mighty gods this doesn’t necessarily mean that Isaiah was placing the Messiah in this same category. Muslims are assuming that the prophet was simply calling the Messiah a mighty one as opposed to identifying this Davidic King as the human appearance of Yahweh God. This is simply a non-sequitor since it does not follow that the Messiah is not Yahweh simply because there are others who are called mighty gods. After all, would we assume that Yahweh is also in this same category of mighty gods seeing that he, too, is called the Mighty God? Of course not.
Second, these so-called mighty gods are the gentile leaders and kings of the nations, as the surrounding context shows:
“In the twelfth year, in the twelfth month, on the fifteenth day of the month, the word of the LORD came to me: ‘Son of man, wail over the multitude of Egypt, and send them down, her and the daughters of majestic nations, to the world below, to those who have gone down to THE PIT: Whom do you surpass in beauty? Go down and be laid to rest with the uncircumcised.’ They shall fall amid those who are slain by the sword. Egypt is delivered to the sword; drag her away, and all her multitudes. The mighty chiefs (eley gibborim) shall speak of them, with their helpers, out of the midst of Sheol: ‘They have come down, they lie still, the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.’ Assyria is there, and all her company, its graves all around it, all of them slain, fallen by the sword, whose graves are set in the uttermost parts of THE PIT; and her company is all around her grave, all of them slain, fallen by the sword, who spread terror in the land of the living. Elam is there, and all her multitude around her grave; all of them slain, fallen by the sword, who went down uncircumcised into the world below, who spread their terror in the land of the living; and they bear their shame with those who go down to THE PIT. They have made her a bed among the slain with all her multitude, her graves all around it, all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword; for terror of them was spread in the land of the living, and they bear their shame with those who go down to THE PIT; they are placed among the slain. Meshech-Tubal is there, and all her multitude, her graves all around it, all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword; for they spread their terror in the land of the living. And they do not lie with THE MIGHTY (giborim), THE FALLEN FROM AMONG THE UNCIRCUMCISED, who went down to Sheol with their weapons of war, whose swords were laid under their heads, and whose iniquities are upon their bones; for the terror of the MIGHTY MEN (giborim) was in the land of the living. But as for you, you shall be broken and lie among the uncircumcised, with those who are slain by the sword. Edom is there, her kings and all her princes, who for all their might are laid with those who are killed by the sword; they lie with the uncircumcised, with those who go down to THE PIT. The princes of the north are there, all of them, and all the Sidonians, who have gone down in shame with the slain, for all the terror that they caused by their might; they lie uncircumcised with those who are slain by the sword, and bear their shame with those who go down to THE PIT. When Pharaoh sees them, he will be comforted for all his multitude, Pharaoh and all his army, slain by the sword, declares the Lord GOD. For I spread terror in the land of the living; and he shall be laid to rest among the uncircumcised, with those who are slain by the sword, Pharaoh and all his multitude, declares the Lord GOD.’” Ezekiel 32:17-32
From the preceding context we can see that this refers to the fall of Pharaoh to the grave where the dead heathen kings are.
With this in mind the one point that the readers need to remember is that the inspired Scriptures speak out against viewing mere human rulers as gods of any kind. Note, for instance, what Ezekiel says concerning the king of Tyre:
“The word of the LORD came to me: ‘Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, Thus says the Lord GOD: “Because your heart is proud, and you have said, ‘I am a god (el), I sit in the seat of the gods (elohim), in the heart of the seas,’ yet you are but A MAN, and NO god (el), though you make your heart like the heart of a god- you are indeed wiser than Daniel; no secret is hidden from you; by your wisdom and your understanding you have made wealth for yourself, and have gathered gold and silver into your treasuries; by your great wisdom in your trade you have increased your wealth, and your heart has become proud in your wealth- therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Because you make your heart like the heart of a god (elohim), therefore, behold, I will bring foreigners upon you, the most ruthless of the nations; and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom and defile your splendor. They shall thrust you down into THE PIT, and you shall die the death of the slain in the heart of the seas. Will you still say, ‘I am a god (elohim),’ in the presence of those who kill you, though you are but A MAN, and NO god (el), in the hands of those who slay you? You shall die the death of the uncircumcised by the hand of foreigners; for I have spoken, declares the Lord GOD.”’” Ezekiel 28:1-10
Yahweh rebukes a gentile king for thinking that he was a god when in fact he was nothing more than a mere man.
The prophet Isaiah himself rebukes gentile kings such as the king of Babylon for believing that they were gods:
“When the LORD has given you rest from your pain and turmoil and the hard service with which you were made to serve, you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: ‘How the oppressor has ceased, the insolent fury ceased! The LORD has broken the staff of the wicked, the scepter of rulers, that struck the peoples in wrath with unceasing blows, that ruled the nations in anger with unrelenting persecution. The whole earth is at rest and quiet; they break forth into singing. The cypresses rejoice at you, the cedars of Lebanon, saying, “Since you were laid low, no woodcutter comes up against us.” Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come; it rouses the shades to greet you, all who were LEADERS OF THE EARTH; it raises from their thrones all who were KINGS OF THE NATIONS. All of them will answer and say to you: “You too have become as weak as we! You have become like us!” Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, the sound of your harps; maggots are laid as a bed beneath you, and worms are your covers. How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart, “I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.” But you are brought down to SHEOL, to the far reaches of the pit. Those who see you will stare at you and ponder over you: “Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, who made the world like a desert And overthrew its cities, who did not let his prisoners go home?” All the kings of the nations lie in glory, each in his own tomb;’” Isaiah 14:3-18
God destroys the Babylonian ruler for thinking that he could be like God, and even brings him down to the pit to be where the other heathen kings dwell. Babylon is further rebuked elsewhere in Isaiah for claiming the very prerogatives of Yahweh:
“… Now therefore hear this, you lover of pleasures, who sit securely, Who say in your heart, ‘I am, and there is no one besides me; I shall not sit as a widow or know the loss of children’: These two things shall come to you in a moment, in one day; the loss of children and widowhood shall come upon you in full measure, in spite of your many sorceries and the great power of your enchantments. You felt secure in your wickedness, you said, ‘No one sees me’; Your wisdom and your knowledge led you astray, and you said in your heart, ‘I am, and there is no one besides me.’” Isaiah 47:8-10
Assyria was another nation which was chastised for thinking that it too was a god:
“And he will stretch out his hand against the north and destroy Assyria, and he will make Nineveh a desolation, a dry waste like the desert. Herds shall lie down in her midst, all kinds of beasts; even the owl and the hedgehog shall lodge in her capitals; a voice shall hoot in the window; devastation will be on the threshold; for her cedar work will be laid bare. This is the exultant city that lived securely, that said in her heart, ‘I am, and there is no one else.’ What a desolation she has become, a lair for wild beasts! Everyone who passes by her hisses and shakes his fist.” Zephaniah 2:13-15
And:
“Then the Rabshakeh stood and called out in a loud voice in the language of Judah: ‘Hear the words of the great king, the king of Assyria! Thus says the king: “Do not let Hezekiah deceive you, for he will not be able to deliver you. Do not let Hezekiah make you trust in the LORD by saying, ‘The LORD will surely deliver us. This city will not be given into the hand of the king of Assyria.’ Do not listen to Hezekiah. For thus says the king of Assyria: Make your peace with me and come out to me. Then each one of you will eat of his own vine, and each one of his own fig tree, and each one of you will drink the water of his own cistern, until I come and take you away to a land like your own land, a land of grain and wine, a land of bread and vineyards. Beware lest Hezekiah mislead you by saying, ‘The LORD will deliver us.’ Has any of the gods of the nations DELIVERED his land OUT OF THE HAND of the king of Assyria? Where are the gods of Hamath and Arpad? Where are the gods of Sepharvaim? Have they delivered Samaria OUT OF MY HANDS? Who among all the gods of these lands have DELIVERED their lands OUT OF MY HAND, that the LORD should DELIVER Jerusalem OUT OF MY HAND?”’” Isaiah 36:13-20
Again:
“The Rabshakeh returned, and found the king of Assyria fighting against Libnah, for he had heard that the king had left Lachish. Now the king heard concerning Tirhakah king of Cush, ‘He has set out to fight against you.’ And when he heard it, he sent messengers to Hezekiah, saying, ‘Thus shall you speak to Hezekiah king of Judah: “Do not let your God in whom you trust deceive you by promising that Jerusalem will not be given into the hand of the king of Assyria. Behold, you have heard what the kings of Assyria have done to all lands, devoting them to destruction. And shall you be delivered? Have the gods of the nations delivered them, the nations that my fathers destroyed, Gozan, Haran, Rezeph, and the people of Eden who were in Telassar? Where is the king of Hamath, the king of Arpad, the king of the city of Sepharvaim, the king of Hena, or the king of Ivvah?”’” Isaiah 37:8-13
Now notice God’s response to Hezekiah’s prayer concerning the taunts of the Assyrian army:
“Hezekiah received the letter from the hand of the messengers, and read it; and Hezekiah went up to the house of the LORD, and spread it before the LORD. And Hezekiah prayed to the LORD: ‘O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, who is enthroned above the cherubim, you are the God, YOU ALONE, of all the kingdoms of the earth; you have made heaven and earth. Incline your ear, O LORD, and hear; open your eyes, O LORD, and see; and hear all the words of Sennacherib, which he has sent to mock the living God. Truly, O LORD, the kings of Assyria have laid waste all the nations and their lands, and have cast their gods into the fire. For they were no gods, but the work of men’s hands, wood and stone. Therefore they were destroyed. So now, O LORD our God, save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that YOU ALONE are the LORD’… Therefore thus says the LORD concerning the king of Assyria: He shall not come into this city or shoot an arrow there or come before it with a shield or cast up a siege mound against it. By the way that he came, by the same he shall return, and he shall not come into this city, declares the LORD. For I will defend this city to save it, for my own sake and for the sake of my servant David. And the angel of the LORD went out and struck down a hundred and eighty-five thousand in the camp of the Assyrians. And when people arose early in the morning, behold, these were all dead bodies. Then Sennacherib king of Assyria departed and returned home and lived at Nineveh. And as he was worshiping in the house of Nisroch his god, Adrammelech and Sharezer, his sons, struck him down with the sword. And after they escaped into the land of Ararat, Esarhaddon his son reigned in his place.” Isaiah 37:14-20, 33-38
Hezekiah beseeches Yahweh to save his people from the Assyrians in order to show that he alone is God. This indicates that, as far as the biblical writers are concerned, there are no other gods which exist alongside Yahweh.
In light of the foregoing it seems evident that Ezekiel 32:21 and 31:11 are not saying that these heathen rulers were actually gods, albeit in a lesser sense than Yahweh. Nor are the terms being used metaphorically to denote rulers who were mighty, as Zaatari’s source erroneously assumes. From the overall context of the inspired Scriptures we can safely conclude that these gentile kings are ironically and sarcastically called gods, e.g. they are rulers who were wrongly considered gods by the peoples and yet died a humiliating and shameful death, dying like any other mere mortal.
This is completely unlike the context of Isaiah 9 where an inspired prophet gives the child the very titles of God himself as an indication of his character and rule.
Moreover, Zaatari’s anti-Trinitarian source conveniently turns to the book of Ezekiel while ignoring the fact that Isaiah uses the exact phrase El Gibbor in 10:21 in reference to the one true God, Yahweh. Thus, if this phrase means “Mighty Hero” then Isaiah is identifying both Yahweh and the Messiah as this one Mighty Hero who defends and fights for God’s people. After all, the Messiah is El Gibbor in the same sense that Yahweh is since he is given all of the very titles which Isaiah applies in other places to God, even though the prophet emphatically stresses the point that there is only one true God (El, Elohim):
“‘You are my witnesses,’ declares the LORD, ‘and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.’” Isaiah 43:10-11
“This is what the LORD says— Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God. Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and lay out before me what has happened since I established my ancient people, and what is yet to come— yes, let him foretell what will come. Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.” Isaiah 44:6-8
“I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me. I am the LORD, and there is no other… Declare what is to be, present it— let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me.” Isaiah 45:5-6, 21
“Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will to all that I please. From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do.” Isaiah 46:9-11
Hence, the Messiah is not a mighty god like the heathen kings, but is THE Mighty God in the same sense that Yahweh is since he is Yahweh God incarnate. A careful examination of the entire context of Isaiah, as well as the overall context of the Scriptures, proves this beyond any reasonable doubt.
Zaatari then says:
No Jew ever believed that the Messiah would be God, and no where in the context of Isaiah chapter 9 is such a doctrine taught.
Talk about begging the question and of committing a hasty generalization! No Jew ever believed that the Messiah is God? Really? What about the Jewish followers of Jesus such as John and Paul, both of whom expressly taught that Jesus is God Almighty? What about the thousands of Messianic Jews, Hebrew Christians etc. who do believe in the Trinity and in the perfect Deity of the Lord Jesus?
And since Zaatari is appealing to the Jews to prove his position will he accept the fact that rabbinic or orthodox Judaism believes that the Messiah is an eternal King who ushers in the last age? If so then Muhammad must have been a false prophet for affirming that Jesus is the Messiah while denying the significance this has on his Person and work. For more on this subject we recommend the following articles:
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Now here is my challenge to this Muhammadan clown. Quote one OT passage where the phrase El Gibbor (not simply the word El) is used of anyone other than Yahweh in a positive sense.
More for this joke in the following section.
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Now to address this clown’s misuse of Luke 19:11-27 to disprove that Jesus is the Prince of Peace, seeking to be illiterate like is profit, it never dawned on him that in order for true peace to exist a person may be required to remove and destroy everything that hinders and prevents true peace from taking place. In other words, you may need to use violence in order to put down any and all those who oppose peace and are bent on bringing in chaos and mayhem, much like Muhammad did with his vile, wicked teachings. Case in point:
“The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.” Romans 16:20
Note that it is the God OF PEACE who crushes Satan under the feet of the church, since for true peace to exist God must destroy Satan since he is always seeking to destroy true peace, much like Muhammad.
What makes this all the more ironic is that very context of Isaiah 9 confirms this fact since it speaks of GOD DESTROYING THE ENEMIES OF HIS PEOPLE, thereby illustrating the fact that at times violence becomes necessary in order to bring about true and lasting peace:
“Nevertheless there shall be no more gloom for her who was in anguish. In the former time He contemptuously treated the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the latter time He shall make it glorious, by the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, in Galilee of the nations. 2 The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them the light has shined. 3 You have multiplied the nation and increased the joy; they rejoice before You according to the joy of harvest and as men rejoice WHEN THEY DIVIDE THE SPOIL. FOR YOU HAVE BROKEN THE YOKE OF HIS BURDEN AND THE BAR OF HIS SHOULDER, THE ROD OF HIS OPPRESSOR AS IN THE DAY OF MIDIAN’S DEFEAT. For all the sandals of the tramping warriors and all the garments rolled in blood SHALL BE BURNED AS FUEL FOR THE FIRE. For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder. And his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David and over his kingdom, to order it and to establish it with justice and with righteousness, from now until forever. The zeal of the Lord of Hosts will perform this.” Isaiah 9:1-7
Talk about an dishonest, inept Muhammadan! The very context of Isaiah which predicts the coming of the Messianic Prince of Peace SPEAKS OF GOD DESTROYING THE OPPRESSORS AND WARRIORS OF THOSE WHO HAVE OPPRESSED ISRAEL, i.e. the way that the Messiah will bring about true peace IS BY DESTROYING ALL THOSE WHO OPPOSE PEACE AND DESIRE TO BRING CHAOS AND BLOODSHED INSTEAD!
This is why I said this clown’s garbage even makes the Quran sound coherent. Lord willing, I will be writing a post on flyingibnmuta’s misuse of the Septuagint and the passages which speak of there being only one God and Savior. I will also be working on an article on Isaiah 7:14 to further embarrass this clown.
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Shamoun,
El gibor but the plural version El gibborim is used in the following verse,
“The strong (El) among the mighty (gibor) shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.” – Ezekiel 32:21
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/eze/32/21/t_conc_834021
Why haven’t you made the above heathens your GODS as well. Now, instead of having 3 Gods, you will worship 5, 6 or 7 Gods besides the trinity?
Listen to Reverend. G. Buchanan:
“–Mighty God]… the great (and) mighty God, Dt 10:17, Neh 9:32, Jer 32:18. The ambiguous of Ezekiel 32:21, the application of to Nebuchadnezzar in Ezekiel 31:11 and the fact, if it be such, that in the remaining three clauses of the name here the words are cstr. And gen., scarcely justify a departure from the obvious rendering mighty God in favour of god of a hero and still less a whittling down of the meaning of, to hero, so that the clause means no more than “mighty hero.”
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“But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’ ” – Luke 19:27
The way you twist and lie about Prince of Peace is unbelievable. Jesus literally will come back to slaughter people for not accepting him as the Messiah. Was sort of a Messiah is that?
Here is a commentary on the Bible, by Mathew Henry:
“In the sentence passed upon them at his return: Those mine enemies bring hither, v. 27. When his faithful subjects are preferred and rewarded, then he will take vengeance on his enemies, and particularly on the Jewish nation, the doom of which is here read. When Christ had set up his gospel kingdom, and thereby put reputation upon the gospel ministry, then he comes to reckon with the Jews; then it is remembered against them that they had particularly disclaimed and protested against his kingly office, when they said, We have no king but Cæsar, nor would own him for their king. They appealed to Cæsar, and to Cæsar they shall go; Cæsar shall be their ruin. Then the kingdom of God appeared when vengeance was taken on those irreconcilable enemies to Christ and his government; they were brought forth and slain before him. Never was so much slaughter made in any war as in the wars of the Jews. That nation lived to see Christianity victorious in the Gentile world, in spite of their enmity and opposition to it, and then it was taken away as dross. The wrath of Christ came upon them to the uttermost (1 Thess. ii. 15, 16), and their destruction redounded very much to the honour of Christ and the peace of the church. But this is applicable to all others who persist in their infidelity, and will undoubtedly perish in it. Note, [1.] Utter ruin will certainly be the portion of all Christ’s enemies; in the day of vengeance they shall all be brought forth, and slain before him. Bring them hither, to be made a spectacle to saints and angels; see Josh. x. 22, 24. Bring them hither, that they may see the glory and happiness of Christ and his followers, whom they hated and persecuted. Bring them hither, to have their frivolous pleas overruled, and to receive sentence according to their merits. Bring them, and slay them before me, as Agag before Samuel. The Saviour whom they have slighted will stand by and see them slain, and not interpose on their behalf. [2.] Those that will not have Christ to reign over them shall be reputed and dealt with as his enemies. We are ready to think that none are Christ’s enemies but persecutors of Christianity, or scoffers at least; but you see that those will be accounted so that dislike the terms of salvation, will not submit to Christ’s yoke, but will be their own masters. Note, Whoever will not be ruled by the grace of Christ will inevitably be ruined by the wrath of Christ.” [14]
Nowhere in Luke 19:27 is there a shred of evidence of your lying claims on on oppressors or warriors. It simply says since they don’t accept Jesus as the messiah, they are put to death by Jesus. So much for the “Prince of Peace”
Ouch 😛
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Older refutations to your claims by br Paul Williams
https://bloggingtheology.net/2016/11/25/25543/
ouch
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Shamoun,
Isaiah 9:6 speaks of a “Prince of Peace.” Who is he? This text is a good example of how missionaries approach the Jewish Bible with a preconceived agenda and ultimately see what is not there and do not see what actually is there. The result is a dramatic misreading and distortion of the Jewish Scriptures.
https://bloggingtheology.net/2016/08/30/17084/
Here is a video as well from Jewish scholars:
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The Septuagint (LXX) Translation of Isaiah 9:6
Second century Jews had no anti-Christian bias. Christianity had not yet arrived. Now let us honestly acknowledge how they translated this Hebrew text into Greek:
“For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the angel/messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him” (LXX).
These ancient Jewish translation scholars did not see this verse describing anyone as “God.” Rather, they saw the verse describing an angel/messenger. Given the context, it is highly unlikely that they had a divine messenger (angel) in mind. The same Hebrew word was used to refer to human messengers. The Greek Septuagint was a translation held in high esteem among Greek speaking Jews before/at the time of Christ. We also know for certain this Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament was also heavily quoted in the New Testament by Jesus and his apostles. The Septuagint was also the version used by the earliest Christians.
We must recognize that the Septuagint translation does not attempt to translate the Hebrew text as literally as possible. Their translation of Isaiah 9:6 does not attempt to be a word for word translation. The Jewish scholars of that time were more concerned about presenting the intended concept and meaning of the verse rather than providing a word for word translation. And these ancient Jewish scholars did not perceive the Hebrew text to be describing this humanly born child-son as “God.”
http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/TTD/verses/isaiah9_6.html
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I know being illiterate like your profit makes it hard for you to comprehend what you are reading. So let me repost my obliteration of your appeal to Ezekiel 32:21. Now make sure to have someone read this out loud for you.
BEGIN
What about the other so-called mighty gods?
Further attempts have been made by Muslim propagandists to deny that Isaiah 9:6 identifies the Messiah as the Mighty God. One such Muslim neophyte is Sam Zaatari who, in his desperation, appeals to the eisegesis of Unitarian “Christians” to argue that El Gibbor really means “Mighty Hero”! (*)
For instance, Zaatari’s source appeals to Ezekiel 31:11 and 32:12 to show where the word El Gibbor (as well as its plural) is used in relation to others. Here, Zaatari seems to be mistaken since Ezekiel 31:11 does not use El Gibbor but simply El.
“I will give it into the hand of a mighty one (el) of the nations. He shall surely deal with it as its wickedness deserves. I have cast it out.” Ezekiel 31:11
He must have also meant Ezekiel 32:21, not 12 since this latter verse uses the word gibborim, not eley gibborim which is the plural form of El Gibbor.
By appealing to these passages Muslims such as Zaatari think that they have found a way of refuting the doctrine of the Trinity and the OT witness to the absolute Deity of the Lord Jesus.
Yet there are several problems with this desperate approach, not the least of which is just because there may be other so-called mighty gods this doesn’t necessarily mean that Isaiah was placing the Messiah in this same category. Muslims are assuming that the prophet was simply calling the Messiah a mighty one as opposed to identifying this Davidic King as the human appearance of Yahweh God. This is simply a non-sequitor since it does not follow that the Messiah is not Yahweh simply because there are others who are called mighty gods. After all, would we assume that Yahweh is also in this same category of mighty gods seeing that he, too, is called the Mighty God? Of course not.
Second, these so-called mighty gods are the gentile leaders and kings of the nations, as the surrounding context shows:
“In the twelfth year, in the twelfth month, on the fifteenth day of the month, the word of the LORD came to me: ‘Son of man, wail over the multitude of Egypt, and send them down, her and the daughters of majestic nations, to the world below, to those who have gone down to THE PIT: Whom do you surpass in beauty? Go down and be laid to rest with the uncircumcised.’ They shall fall amid those who are slain by the sword. Egypt is delivered to the sword; drag her away, and all her multitudes. The mighty chiefs (eley gibborim) shall speak of them, with their helpers, out of the midst of Sheol: ‘They have come down, they lie still, the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.’ Assyria is there, and all her company, its graves all around it, all of them slain, fallen by the sword, whose graves are set in the uttermost parts of THE PIT; and her company is all around her grave, all of them slain, fallen by the sword, who spread terror in the land of the living. Elam is there, and all her multitude around her grave; all of them slain, fallen by the sword, who went down uncircumcised into the world below, who spread their terror in the land of the living; and they bear their shame with those who go down to THE PIT. They have made her a bed among the slain with all her multitude, her graves all around it, all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword; for terror of them was spread in the land of the living, and they bear their shame with those who go down to THE PIT; they are placed among the slain. Meshech-Tubal is there, and all her multitude, her graves all around it, all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword; for they spread their terror in the land of the living. And they do not lie with THE MIGHTY (giborim), THE FALLEN FROM AMONG THE UNCIRCUMCISED, who went down to Sheol with their weapons of war, whose swords were laid under their heads, and whose iniquities are upon their bones; for the terror of the MIGHTY MEN (giborim) was in the land of the living. But as for you, you shall be broken and lie among the uncircumcised, with those who are slain by the sword. Edom is there, her kings and all her princes, who for all their might are laid with those who are killed by the sword; they lie with the uncircumcised, with those who go down to THE PIT. The princes of the north are there, all of them, and all the Sidonians, who have gone down in shame with the slain, for all the terror that they caused by their might; they lie uncircumcised with those who are slain by the sword, and bear their shame with those who go down to THE PIT. When Pharaoh sees them, he will be comforted for all his multitude, Pharaoh and all his army, slain by the sword, declares the Lord GOD. For I spread terror in the land of the living; and he shall be laid to rest among the uncircumcised, with those who are slain by the sword, Pharaoh and all his multitude, declares the Lord GOD.’” Ezekiel 32:17-32
From the preceding context we can see that this refers to the fall of Pharaoh to the grave where the dead heathen kings are.
With this in mind the one point that the readers need to remember is that the inspired Scriptures speak out against viewing mere human rulers as gods of any kind. Note, for instance, what Ezekiel says concerning the king of Tyre:
“The word of the LORD came to me: ‘Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, Thus says the Lord GOD: “Because your heart is proud, and you have said, ‘I am a god (el), I sit in the seat of the gods (elohim), in the heart of the seas,’ yet you are but A MAN, and NO god (el), though you make your heart like the heart of a god- you are indeed wiser than Daniel; no secret is hidden from you; by your wisdom and your understanding you have made wealth for yourself, and have gathered gold and silver into your treasuries; by your great wisdom in your trade you have increased your wealth, and your heart has become proud in your wealth- therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Because you make your heart like the heart of a god (elohim), therefore, behold, I will bring foreigners upon you, the most ruthless of the nations; and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom and defile your splendor. They shall thrust you down into THE PIT, and you shall die the death of the slain in the heart of the seas. Will you still say, ‘I am a god (elohim),’ in the presence of those who kill you, though you are but A MAN, and NO god (el), in the hands of those who slay you? You shall die the death of the uncircumcised by the hand of foreigners; for I have spoken, declares the Lord GOD.”’” Ezekiel 28:1-10
Yahweh rebukes a gentile king for thinking that he was a god when in fact he was nothing more than a mere man.
The prophet Isaiah himself rebukes gentile kings such as the king of Babylon for believing that they were gods:
“When the LORD has given you rest from your pain and turmoil and the hard service with which you were made to serve, you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: ‘How the oppressor has ceased, the insolent fury ceased! The LORD has broken the staff of the wicked, the scepter of rulers, that struck the peoples in wrath with unceasing blows, that ruled the nations in anger with unrelenting persecution. The whole earth is at rest and quiet; they break forth into singing. The cypresses rejoice at you, the cedars of Lebanon, saying, “Since you were laid low, no woodcutter comes up against us.” Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come; it rouses the shades to greet you, all who were LEADERS OF THE EARTH; it raises from their thrones all who were KINGS OF THE NATIONS. All of them will answer and say to you: “You too have become as weak as we! You have become like us!” Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, the sound of your harps; maggots are laid as a bed beneath you, and worms are your covers. How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart, “I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.” But you are brought down to SHEOL, to the far reaches of the pit. Those who see you will stare at you and ponder over you: “Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, who made the world like a desert And overthrew its cities, who did not let his prisoners go home?” All the kings of the nations lie in glory, each in his own tomb;’” Isaiah 14:3-18
God destroys the Babylonian ruler for thinking that he could be like God, and even brings him down to the pit to be where the other heathen kings dwell. Babylon is further rebuked elsewhere in Isaiah for claiming the very prerogatives of Yahweh:
“… Now therefore hear this, you lover of pleasures, who sit securely, Who say in your heart, ‘I am, and there is no one besides me; I shall not sit as a widow or know the loss of children’: These two things shall come to you in a moment, in one day; the loss of children and widowhood shall come upon you in full measure, in spite of your many sorceries and the great power of your enchantments. You felt secure in your wickedness, you said, ‘No one sees me’; Your wisdom and your knowledge led you astray, and you said in your heart, ‘I am, and there is no one besides me.’” Isaiah 47:8-10
Assyria was another nation which was chastised for thinking that it too was a god:
“And he will stretch out his hand against the north and destroy Assyria, and he will make Nineveh a desolation, a dry waste like the desert. Herds shall lie down in her midst, all kinds of beasts; even the owl and the hedgehog shall lodge in her capitals; a voice shall hoot in the window; devastation will be on the threshold; for her cedar work will be laid bare. This is the exultant city that lived securely, that said in her heart, ‘I am, and there is no one else.’ What a desolation she has become, a lair for wild beasts! Everyone who passes by her hisses and shakes his fist.” Zephaniah 2:13-15
And:
“Then the Rabshakeh stood and called out in a loud voice in the language of Judah: ‘Hear the words of the great king, the king of Assyria! Thus says the king: “Do not let Hezekiah deceive you, for he will not be able to deliver you. Do not let Hezekiah make you trust in the LORD by saying, ‘The LORD will surely deliver us. This city will not be given into the hand of the king of Assyria.’ Do not listen to Hezekiah. For thus says the king of Assyria: Make your peace with me and come out to me. Then each one of you will eat of his own vine, and each one of his own fig tree, and each one of you will drink the water of his own cistern, until I come and take you away to a land like your own land, a land of grain and wine, a land of bread and vineyards. Beware lest Hezekiah mislead you by saying, ‘The LORD will deliver us.’ Has any of the gods of the nations DELIVERED his land OUT OF THE HAND of the king of Assyria? Where are the gods of Hamath and Arpad? Where are the gods of Sepharvaim? Have they delivered Samaria OUT OF MY HANDS? Who among all the gods of these lands have DELIVERED their lands OUT OF MY HAND, that the LORD should DELIVER Jerusalem OUT OF MY HAND?”’” Isaiah 36:13-20
Again:
“The Rabshakeh returned, and found the king of Assyria fighting against Libnah, for he had heard that the king had left Lachish. Now the king heard concerning Tirhakah king of Cush, ‘He has set out to fight against you.’ And when he heard it, he sent messengers to Hezekiah, saying, ‘Thus shall you speak to Hezekiah king of Judah: “Do not let your God in whom you trust deceive you by promising that Jerusalem will not be given into the hand of the king of Assyria. Behold, you have heard what the kings of Assyria have done to all lands, devoting them to destruction. And shall you be delivered? Have the gods of the nations delivered them, the nations that my fathers destroyed, Gozan, Haran, Rezeph, and the people of Eden who were in Telassar? Where is the king of Hamath, the king of Arpad, the king of the city of Sepharvaim, the king of Hena, or the king of Ivvah?”’” Isaiah 37:8-13
Now notice God’s response to Hezekiah’s prayer concerning the taunts of the Assyrian army:
“Hezekiah received the letter from the hand of the messengers, and read it; and Hezekiah went up to the house of the LORD, and spread it before the LORD. And Hezekiah prayed to the LORD: ‘O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, who is enthroned above the cherubim, you are the God, YOU ALONE, of all the kingdoms of the earth; you have made heaven and earth. Incline your ear, O LORD, and hear; open your eyes, O LORD, and see; and hear all the words of Sennacherib, which he has sent to mock the living God. Truly, O LORD, the kings of Assyria have laid waste all the nations and their lands, and have cast their gods into the fire. For they were no gods, but the work of men’s hands, wood and stone. Therefore they were destroyed. So now, O LORD our God, save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that YOU ALONE are the LORD’… Therefore thus says the LORD concerning the king of Assyria: He shall not come into this city or shoot an arrow there or come before it with a shield or cast up a siege mound against it. By the way that he came, by the same he shall return, and he shall not come into this city, declares the LORD. For I will defend this city to save it, for my own sake and for the sake of my servant David. And the angel of the LORD went out and struck down a hundred and eighty-five thousand in the camp of the Assyrians. And when people arose early in the morning, behold, these were all dead bodies. Then Sennacherib king of Assyria departed and returned home and lived at Nineveh. And as he was worshiping in the house of Nisroch his god, Adrammelech and Sharezer, his sons, struck him down with the sword. And after they escaped into the land of Ararat, Esarhaddon his son reigned in his place.” Isaiah 37:14-20, 33-38
Hezekiah beseeches Yahweh to save his people from the Assyrians in order to show that he alone is God. This indicates that, as far as the biblical writers are concerned, there are no other gods which exist alongside Yahweh.
In light of the foregoing it seems evident that Ezekiel 32:21 and 31:11 are not saying that these heathen rulers were actually gods, albeit in a lesser sense than Yahweh. Nor are the terms being used metaphorically to denote rulers who were mighty, as Zaatari’s source erroneously assumes. From the overall context of the inspired Scriptures we can safely conclude that these gentile kings are ironically and sarcastically called gods, e.g. they are rulers who were wrongly considered gods by the peoples and yet died a humiliating and shameful death, dying like any other mere mortal.
This is completely unlike the context of Isaiah 9 where an inspired prophet gives the child the very titles of God himself as an indication of his character and rule.
Moreover, Zaatari’s anti-Trinitarian source conveniently turns to the book of Ezekiel while ignoring the fact that Isaiah uses the exact phrase El Gibbor in 10:21 in reference to the one true God, Yahweh. Thus, if this phrase means “Mighty Hero” then Isaiah is identifying both Yahweh and the Messiah as this one Mighty Hero who defends and fights for God’s people. After all, the Messiah is El Gibbor in the same sense that Yahweh is since he is given all of the very titles which Isaiah applies in other places to God, even though the prophet emphatically stresses the point that there is only one true God (El, Elohim):
“‘You are my witnesses,’ declares the LORD, ‘and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.’” Isaiah 43:10-11
“This is what the LORD says— Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God. Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and lay out before me what has happened since I established my ancient people, and what is yet to come— yes, let him foretell what will come. Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.” Isaiah 44:6-8
“I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me. I am the LORD, and there is no other… Declare what is to be, present it— let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me.” Isaiah 45:5-6, 21
“Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will to all that I please. From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do.” Isaiah 46:9-11
Hence, the Messiah is not a mighty god like the heathen kings, but is THE Mighty God in the same sense that Yahweh is since he is Yahweh God incarnate. A careful examination of the entire context of Isaiah, as well as the overall context of the Scriptures, proves this beyond any reasonable doubt.
Zaatari then says:
No Jew ever believed that the Messiah would be God, and no where in the context of Isaiah chapter 9 is such a doctrine taught.
Talk about begging the question and of committing a hasty generalization! No Jew ever believed that the Messiah is God? Really? What about the Jewish followers of Jesus such as John and Paul, both of whom expressly taught that Jesus is God Almighty? What about the thousands of Messianic Jews, Hebrew Christians etc. who do believe in the Trinity and in the perfect Deity of the Lord Jesus?
And since Zaatari is appealing to the Jews to prove his position will he accept the fact that rabbinic or orthodox Judaism believes that the Messiah is an eternal King who ushers in the last age? If so then Muhammad must have been a false prophet for affirming that Jesus is the Messiah while denying the significance this has on his Person and work. For more on this subject we recommend the following articles:
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Now did you understand my refutation of your garbage? If so clown then here is my challenge to you. Quote one OT passage where the phrase El Gibbor (not simply the word El) is used of anyone other than Yahweh in a positive sense.
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Here is the obliteration of your appeal to the Septuagint taken from one of my articles. Make sure you have someone read this for you as well:
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The Angel of the Great Council
According to the Hebrew version of Isaiah 9:6-7, a Child will be born to rule on David’s throne forever who shall be called the Mighty God:
“For to us a child is born, to us a son is given. The government shall be upon his shoulders and he shall be called, Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, and Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this.”
However, the Greek version reads differently in that it identifies this Child as an Angel or Messenger:
“because a child was born for us, a son also given to us, whose sovereignty was upon his shoulder, and he is named Messenger/Angel of Great Counsel (megales boules angelos): for I will bring peace upon the rulers, peace and health to him. His sovereignty is great, and his peace has no boundary upon the throne of Dauid and his kingdom, to make it prosper and to uphold it with righteousness and with judgment from this time onward and forevermore (kai ton aiona). The zeal of the Lord Sabaoth will do these things.” Isaiah 9:5-6 (Eng. 9:6-7)
The words megales boules angelos can also be rendered as “Angel/Messenger of Great Council,” which would identify this Child as a member of God’s heavenly council. As one author noted in his study of the LXX of Isaiah 9:6,
“boule can mean ‘council’ as well as ‘counsel’, so that, for readers of the LXX, megales boules angelos would suggest the angelic council of I Kings 22.” (Joseph Trigg, “The Angel of Great Counsel: Christ and the Angelic Hierarchy in Origen’s Theology,” JTS 42:1 (April 1991), pp. 35-51)
In support of reading boules as council we have the LXX version of Psalm 88:6-8 (Eng. 89:5-7),
“The heavens will acknowledge your wonders, O Lord, indeed, your truth in an assembly of holy ones (en ekklesia hagion), because who in the clouds shall be deemed equal to the Lord? And who among divine sons shall be compared with the Lord? God is glorified in a council of holy ones (en boule hagion), great and awesome to all that are around him.”
Thus, it seems reasonably certain that the translators understood the title Mighty God to mean that this Child is a Divine Angel, specifically the Angel of God who appears quite often throughout the OT. In fact, in many passages this particular Messenger is even called God:
“But the Lord God’s Angel found her by the spring of water in the wilderness, by the spring on the way to Sour. And the Angel of the Lord said to her, ‘Hagar, slave-girl of Sara, where ar you coming from, and where are you going?’ And she said, ‘I am running from the presence of my mistress Sara.’ But the Angel of the Lord said to her, ‘Return to your mistress, and humble yourself under her hands.’ The Angel of the Lord also said to her, ‘I will multitudinously multiply your offspring, and it will not be counted for multitude.’ And the Angel of the Lord said to her, ‘See, you are pregnant and shall bear a son and shall call his name Ishmael. For the Lord has given heed to your humiliation. He shall be a rustic man; his hands shall be against all, and the hands of all against him, and he shall live facing all his kinfolk.’ And Hagar called the name of the Lord who was speaking to her, ‘You-are-the-God-who-looks-upon-me (su ho theos ho epidon me),’ because she said, ‘For truly I saw him face to face when he appeared to me.’ Therefore she called the well, ‘Well-of-the-one-whom-I-saw-face-to-face’; see, it is between Kades and between Barad.” Genesis 16:7-14
“And it came about when the sheep were coming into heat, that when I saw them with my eyes in my sleep, and see, the male goats and the rams–pure white and variegated and ash-colored spotted–were mounting the sheep and the female goats. And the Angel of God said to me during sleep, ‘Iakob.’ And I said, ‘What is it?’ And He said, ‘Look up with your eyes, and see the male goats and the rams– pure white and variegated and ash-colored spotted–mounting the sheep and the female goats, for I have seen how much Laban is doing to you. I am the God (ego eimi ho theos) that appeared to you in the place of God, there where you anointed a stele to me and made a vow to me there…’” Genesis 31:10-13
“And Manoe said to the Angel of the Lord, ‘What is Your name so that we may glorify you (doxasmen se) when your word comes?’ And the Angel of the Lord said to him, ‘Why do you ask this, my name? Even by itself it is wonderful/amazing (esti thaumaston)?’ And Manoe took the kid of goats and the sacrifice and offered it on the rock to the Lord, to the Lord who works wonders, and Manoe and his wife were looking on. And it came about, when the flame went up above the altar toward the sky, that the Angel of the Lord ascended in the flame, and Manoe and his wife were looking on, and they fell on their face to the ground. And the Angel of the Lord did not add still to appear to Manoe and to his wife. Then Manoe knew that it was the Angel of the Lord. And Manoe said to his wife, ‘We shall die by death, for we have seen God (theon).’ And his wife said to him, ‘If the Lord had desired to kill us, he would not have accepted a whole burnt offering and a sacrifice from our hands, and he would not have enlightened us about all these things, and he would not have made them audible to us.’” Judges 13:17-23
“And Iakob was left alone; and a man was wrestling with him until morning. And he saw that he was not powerful against him, and he touched the flat part of his thigh, and the flat part of Iakob’s thigh became numb as he wrestled with him. And He said to him, ‘Send me away, for the dawn has come up.’ But he said, ‘I will not send you away, unless you bless me.’ And he said to him, ‘What is your name?’ And he answered, ‘Iakob.’ Then he said to him, ‘Your name shall no longer be called Iakob, but Israel shall be your name, because you have prevailed with God (hoti enischusas meta theou), and with humans you are powerful.’ Then Iakob asked and said, ‘Tell me Your name.’ And he said, ‘Why do you ask this, my name, which is wonderful (ho esti thaumaston)?’ And there he blessed him. And Iakob called the name of that place the Sight of God/Form of God/Divine Form (eidos theou), ‘For I have seen the God (ton theon) face to face, and my life has been preserved.’” Genesis 32:24-30
It should be pointed out that certain manuscripts (MSS) such as the Complutensian Polyglot omit the phrase “which is wonderful.”
According to the prophet Hosea the Man whom Jacob wrestled with and identified as God was actually the Angel of God!
“And the Lord has a judgment against Ioudas, to punish Iakob according to his ways, and will he repay him according to his deeds. In the womb he kicked his brother with the heel and in his struggles prevailed towards/with God (kai enischusen pros theon). And he prevailed with the Angel (enischusen meta angelou) and predominated. They wept and implored me; they found me in the house of On, and there a word was spoken to them. But the Lord God Almighty shall be his memorial.” Hosea 12:2-5
Moreover, even if one were to read this as the Angel of Great Counsel this would still serve to equate the Child with the Angel of Yahweh since the latter had become renown for his wise counsel, his wisdom. In fact, his wisdom and knowledge were such that those who were seen possessing great wisdom and understanding were likened to him, such as in the case of king David:
“And the woman said, ‘May the word of my lord the king indeed be as an offering, for as a divine Angel/Angel of God, so is my lord the king, to hear the good and the evil, and the Lord your God shall be with you! … In order to get around the façade of this thing, your slave Ioab made up this tale: and my lord is wise like the wisdom of the Angel of God, to know all things that are in the earth.” 2 Samuel 14:17, 20
Thus, by identifying the Child of Isaiah 9 as this specific Angel the LXX scribes were making it clear that the Son who would be given was a heavenly, preexistent Divine Being.
What this basically means is that they weren’t trying to demote the Child’s Divine status by omitting from their translation the titles Mighty God and Everlasting Father. Rather, they were seeking to emphasize his personal distinction from Yahweh God, the One whom the inspired prophet calls the Mighty God and Israel’s Father,
“And it shall be on that day that what remains of Israel will no more be added, and those of Iakob who have been saved will no more trust in those who have wronged them but will trust in God, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. And what remains of Iakob will be to the Mighty God.” Isaiah 10:20-21
“For you are our father, because Abraham did not know us and Israel did not recognize us, but you, O Lord, are our father; deliver us; from the beginning your name has been upon us.” Isaiah 63:16
“And, now, Lord, you are our Father, and we are clay; we are all the work of your hands.” Isaiah 64:8
The translators may have wanted to drive home the point that this Son who would be given is not Yahweh the Father, even though he is fully Divine like Yahweh, but was actually the Father’s heavenly Messenger coming to rule on David’s throne forever.
This leads us to our final section.
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Make sure you read the following post.
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Here is more from the Septuagint:
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Further Evidence from Isaiah that the LXX translators believed that the Angel of Yahweh is God
We are told in the Hebrew version of Isaiah 63 that the Angel of Yahweh’s Presence/Face redeemed Israel out of Egypt:
“In all their distress he too was distressed, and the Angel of his Presence saved them. In his love and mercy he redeemed them; he lifted them up and carried them all the days of old.” Isaiah 63:9 NIV
However, the LXX reading denies that an angel delivered the people of God:
“And he said, ‘Are they not my people – children will deal falsely?’ And he became to them salvation out of all affliction. It was no ambassador or a messenger/angel (angelos) but the Lord himself that saved them, because he loved them and spared them; he himself ransomed them and took them up and lifted them up all the days of old. But they disobeyed and provoked his Holy Spirit; therefore he turned to them in enmity, and he himself warred against them. Then the one who brought up from the land the shepherd of the sheep remembered the days of old: Where is the one that put within them his Holy Spirit, who led Moyses with his right hand? Where is his glorious arm? He overcame the water from before him, to make for himself an everlasting name. He led them through the deep like a horse through a wilderness, and they did not become weary, and like cattle through a plain, the Spirit came down from the Lord and guided them. Thus you lead your people, to make for yourself a glorious name.” Isaiah 63:8-14
The above rendering either implies that the translators were uncomfortable with ascribing Israel’s redemption to an angel or that they wanted to emphasize the fact that the Angel of Yahweh’s Presence who saved them wasn’t a created entity. Rather, Yahweh was that Angel, i.e. the Angel of God is a fully Divine Person who is both personally distinct from and yet identical to Yahweh.
The context supports the latter view since the scribes mention Yahweh’s Holy Spirit whom Yahweh placed among the people to guide them and whom they disobeyed and provoked.
The translators also kept all the references in the Pentateuch or Torah to the Angel of Yahweh delivering Israel out of Egypt and bringing them into the Promised Land:
“But Moyses said to the people, ‘Take courage! Stand, and see the deliverance from God that he will perform for you today. For as you have seen the Egyptians today, you shall not ever again see them time without end. The Lord will fight for you, and you will be quiet.’ Then the Lord said to Moyses, ‘Why are you crying out to me? Speak to the sons of Israel, and let them break camp. And you, raise your rod, and stretch out your hand over the sea, and break it apart, and let the sons of Israel enter into the midst of the sea on what is dry. And look, I will harden the heart of Pharao and all the Egyptians, and they will enter in after them. And I will be glorified in Pharao and in all his army and in his chariots and in his horses. And all the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, as I am being glorified in Pharao and in his chariots and his horses.’ Then the Angel of God, who was going before the camp of the sons of Israel, rose up and went behind them. Now the pillar of the cloud also rose up from before them and stood behind them. And it went in between the camp of the Egyptians and between the camp of Israel. And there was darkness and gloom, and the night elapsed, and they did not mix together with one another during the whole night. But Moyses stretched out the hand over the sea, and the Lord drew off the sea with a strong south wind during the whole night, and he made the sea dry, and the water was divided. And the sons of Israel entered into the midst of the sea on the dry ground, and the water became a wall for them on the right and a wall on the left. Then the Egyptians pursued, and all of the cavalry of Pharao and the chariots and the riders went in after them into the midst of the sea. And it happened in the early morning watch that the Lord looked at the camp of the Egyptians in the pillar of fire and cloud, and he threw the camp of the Egyptians into disarray. And he bound together the axles of their chariots, and led them violently. And the Egyptians said, ‘Let us flee from Israel! For the Lord fights the Egyptians for them!’ Then the Lord said to Moyses, ‘Stretch out your hand over the sea, and let the water return cover up the Egyptians, both the chariots and the riders.’ So Moyses stretched out the hand over the sea, and the water returned near day to its place. Now the Egyptians fled under the water, and the Lord shook off the Egyptians in the middle of the sea. And when the water had returned, it covered the chariots and riders and all the host of Pharao that entered after them into the sea. Not even one of them remained! But the sons of Israel went across dry ground in the midst of the sea, and the water was for them a wall on the right and a wall on the left. And the Lord rescued Israel in that day from the hand of the Egyptians. And Israel saw the Egyptians dead along the shore of the sea. So Israel saw the great hand, which things the Lord had done to the Egyptians. And the people feared the Lord and trusted God and Moyses his attendant.” Exodus 14:13-31
“And look, I am sending my Angel in front of you in order guard you in the way in order to bring you into the land which I prepared for you. Mind yourself, and listen to him, and do not disobey him. For he shall not hold you in undue awe, for my name is upon him. If by paying attention you will listen to my voice and do all that I tell you, I will be an enemy to your enemies and will resist those who resist you. For my Angel will go, leading you, and will bring you in to the Amorite and Chettite and Pherezite and Chananite and Gergesite and Heuite and Iebousite, and I will destroy them.” Exodus 23:20-23
“But now go, and lead this people to the place that I told you. Look, My Angel will go before your face. But on whichever day I concern myself, I will bring upon them their sin.” Exodus 32:34
“And Moyses sent messengers from Kades to the king of Edom, saying, ‘This is what your brother Israel says: You understand about all the trouble that has found us, and our fathers went down into Egypt, and we lived as sojourners in Egypt for rather many days, and the Egyptians mistreated us and our fathers. And we cried to the Lord, and the Lord listened to our voice, and having sent an Angel he led us out of Egypt; and now we are in Kades, a town on the edge of your borders.” Numbers 20:14-16
These examples corroborate the fact that the translators of the LXX didn’t think for a moment that a single Divine Person was responsible for the salvation of Israel from Egypt. The above verses demonstrate that the scribes were aware that both God’s Holy Spirit and the Angel of Yahweh were fully involved in Israel’s redemption.
In light of this it seems reasonably certain that the translators of Isaiah 63:9 weren’t denying that an Angel delivered Israel, but that a mere created spirit messenger did, since Yahweh’s Angel isn’t a creature. Rather, the Angel of God who saved Israel is a fully Divine Agent. Thus, God did indeed save his people, and not some mere created angelic creature or ambassador.
In fact, the early Church fathers used the Greek version of Isaiah 63:9 to prove that this OT Angel wasn’t a created being, but a fully Divine Person distinct from God the Father, namely the prehuman Christ. As one Christian author wrote in reference to 2nd century Christian apologist Irenaeus’ use of Isaiah 63:9:
“Although he used the traditional title Angel, Irenaeus was very clear that Christ was not a created Angel. Christ was not by nature an angel but only functioned as a messenger’ or ‘teacher’ in God’s ‘economy.’ A verse that he adduces to underscore this crucial point is Isaiah 63:9. According to the LXX text favored by the Fathers, this verse says that it was God himself—and not a created angel—who came to save his people. God, in other words, does not delegate the task of salvation. This verse was widely quoted by the Fathers and applied to Christ. In particular, it was the Fathers who used and promoted the title Angel (e.g., Tertullian, Cyprian, Origen, Eusebius, Athanasius, etc.) who cited this text often. This is conclusive proof, were it needed, that when the Fathers ascribed the title Angel to Christ they did not mean that he was a created spirit. Irenaeus refers to Isa 63:9 on four separate occasions:
On this account, therefore, the Lord Himself, who is Emmanuel from the Virgin, is the sign of our salvation, since ‘it was the Lord Himself who saved them,’ because they could not be saved by their own instrumentality… ‘He will come Himself and will save us.’ … Again, that it should not be a mere man who should save us, nor [one] without flesh—for the angels are without flesh—[the same prophet] announced, saying, ‘neither an elder, nor angel, but the Lord Himself will save them because He loves them and will spare them: He will Himself set them free.’ (Adv. Haer. 3.20.3–4)
And Isaiah says that those who served God are in the end to be saved through His name… And that He was Himself to bring about these blessings in person, Isaiah declared in the words: ‘Not an intercessor, nor an angel, but the Lord Himself has given them life, because He loves them and has pity on them; He Himself redeemed them.’ (Dem. 88)
So through the new calling a change of heart comes about in the Gentiles, through the Word of God, when He became incarnate and tabernacled with men, as also His disciple John says: ‘and His Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.’ For this reason, too, the Church bears fruit in so great a number of saved, for it is no more by an intercessor, Moses, or by Elijah’s angel, that we are saved, but by the Lord Himself. (Dem. 94)
“Thus what appears to be a contradiction at the purely verbal level, and an antithetical juxtaposition of texts and versions, is actually a profound synthesis of traditional and biblical material. Christ is the Mighty God. And though he is rightly called Angel, he is emphatically not a created angel.” (Günther Juncker, “Christ As Angel: The Reclamation Of A Primitive Title,” Trinity Journal 15:2 (Fall 1994), pp. 243-245: underline emphasis ours)
We even have a liberal critical NT scholar going so far as to say that the Angel is not a distinct Divine Messenger sent by Yahweh, but is the same Person as Yahweh!
“More important is ‘the angel of Yahweh’, especially in view of [2nd century Christian apologist] Justin’s identification of the angel of Yahweh with the pre-existent Christ (above p. 132). Yet to understand the angel of Yahweh as a being somehow independent of Yahweh is basically to misunderstand what the ancient writers intended. For it is clear enough even from a cursory study of the passages in question that ‘the angel of Yahweh’ is simply a way of speaking about Yahweh himself. Thus, after the angel of the Lord has appeared and spoken to Hagar the narrative continues: ‘So she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, “You are a God of seeing”; for she said, “Have I really seen God and remained alive after seeing him?”’ (Gen. 16.13). Similarly in the other version of the same tale the angel of God speaks in the first person as God (21.17f.). In Jacob’s dream the angel of God says, ‘I am the God of Bethel’ (31.11-13). In the theophany in the burning bush he who appears to Moses is described both as ‘the angel of the Lord’ and ‘the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob’ (Ex. 3.2-6). Finally we might note Judg. 2.1, where ‘the angel of the Lord’ says ‘I brought you up from the land of Egypt… I will never break my covenant with you…’. Clearly in all of these cases it is impossible to distinguish between the angel of Yahweh and Yahweh himself; they are obviously one and the same person. And the same is most probable true of the other passages where it is a ‘man’ who appears to Abraham (Gen. 18 – ‘the Lord’), to Jacob (Gen. 32.24-30 – ‘I have seen God face to face’) and to Joshua (Josh. 5.13-15). Somewhat more ambiguous is the status of the angel who led Israel through the exodus and wilderness wanderings (Ex. 14.19; 23.20, 23; 32.34; 33.2f.; Num. 20.16), but in fact the same equation seems to hold, since the divine presence in the pillar of fire and of cloud is thought of both as ‘the angel of God’ and as ‘the Lord’ in Ex. 14:19f., 24. In other words, in these instances too the ‘angel’ is a way of describing the presence and saving power of Yahweh.
“In short, this angel talk seems to have been an early, still unsophisticated attempt to speak of God’s immanent activity among people and within events on earth without either resorting to straightforward anthropomorphism or abandoning belief in his holy otherness…” (James D. G. Dunn, Christology in the Making – A New Testament Inquiry into the Origins of the Doctrine of the Incarnation [William B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. Grand Rapids, MI; Second edition 1989], V. Spirit or Angel?, 20. The angel of the Lord, p. 150; underline emphasis and comments within brackets ours)
Although we reject the notion that the Angel isn’t a distinct Person from Yahweh – since it is clear from the OT that he is – we do agree with Dunn, however, that this particular Messenger is identified as Yahweh himself, just as all of the above references conclusively showed. What this means is that we have clear evidence that the Hebrew Bible doesn’t teach unitarianism. The OT data concerning the Angel of Yahweh proves beyond any reasonable doubt that the inspired OT writers knew that God’s eternal Being was so infinitely complex so as to be shared by more than one Divine Person.
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OUCH right back at you and your profit!
This is what you get for appealing to another vile wicked anti-trinitarian son of Satan like you and your profit.
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Like I said, being illiterate like your profit hinders you from comprehending what you read and see. So let me break down Luke 19:11-27 for you. Make sure you ask mommy to read this out loud for you so get the point. First here is the passage:
As they heard these things, He continued and told them a parable, BECAUSE HE WAS NEAR JERUSALEM and because they thought the kingdom of God would immediately appear. 12 Therefore He said, “A nobleman went to a distant country to receive a kingdom and to return. 13 So he called his ten servants and entrusted to them ten pounds[a] and said to them, ‘Trade until I come.’
14 “But his citizens HATED GHIM AND SENT A DELEGATION AFTER HIM, saying, ‘WE DO NOT WANT THIS MAN TO REIGN OVER US.’
15 “When he returned, having received the kingdom, he summoned these servants, to whom he had entrusted the money, that he might know what everyone gained by trading.
16 “The first came, saying, ‘Master, your pound has made ten pounds more.’
17 “He said to him, ‘Well done, good servant! Because you have been faithful in very little, take authority over ten cities.’
18 “The second came, saying, ‘Master, your pound has made five pounds more.’
19 “He said in like manner to him, ‘You, take authority over five cities.’
20 “Then another came, saying, ‘Master, look, here is your pound, which I have kept put away in a napkin. 21 For I feared you, because you are an exacting man. You collect what you did not deposit, and reap what you did not sow.’
22 “He said to him, ‘Out of your own mouth will I judge you, you wicked servant. You knew that I was an exacting man, collecting what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow. 23 Why then did you not deposit my money in the bank, so that at my coming I might have collected it with interest?’
24 “Then he said to those who stood by, ‘Take the pound from him and give it to him who has ten pounds.’
25 “They said to him, ‘Master, he has ten pounds.’
26 “ ‘I tell you that to everyone who has will be given. But from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away from him. 27 BIT AS FOR THOSE ENEMIES OF MINE, WHO WOULD NOT LET ME REIGN OVER THEM, bring them here and slay them before me.’ ”
Now ummi did you read where it says Jesus uttered this parable as he neared Jerusalem? And do you know why he did so at this particular moment? Seeing that you are illiterate like your profit let me break this down for you as well:
31 Taking the twelve, He said, “Listen! WE ARE GOING UP TO JERUSALEM, and everything that is written by the prophets concerning the Son of Man will be accomplished, 32 FOR HE WILL BE HANDED OVER TO THE GENTILES AND WILL BE MOCKED AND INSULTED AND SPIT UPON. 33 THEY WILL SCOURGE HIM AND PUT HIM TO DEATH, and on the third day He will rise again.”
34 They understood none of these things. This saying was hidden from them, and they did not comprehend what was spoken.Luke 18:31-34
With the foregoing in view let me attempt to cure you of your illiteracy. The people in Jesus’ parable who hated him and didn’t want him to rule over them were not peaceful protestors, but violent enemies who had him killed by the hands of the Romans. This means in order for Jesus to usher in a peaceful rule where they would no longer be people opposing his kingdom and seeking his overthrow he must judge them by removing them from his kingdom.
Therefore, being illiterate let me repeat my point which you could not refute, much like Muhammad couldn’t refute anything in his garbage called the Quran. In order for true and lasting peace to eist you must remove any and all opposition to the attainment of that peace. As such, there is nothing incompatible with Jesus removing all the obstacles to true peace, much like he removed Muhammad from the face of the earth and sent him to hell, with his being the prince of peace.
Like I said your garbage makes the Quran sound intelligent, which is why you are too much of a coward to debate and defend your filth against me or any other Apologist. I don’t blame you since I too would be ashamed and afraid to debate your garbage and defend your immoral profit.
Now unless you have something honest and worthwhile to say these posts should be sufficient to expose as the charlatan that you are, much like your profit. Hopefully, Williams won’t come to your defense and delete these posts but let them stand so everybody can see the shellacking I gave to you and your profit.
OUCH! 😉
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“If Apologists continue to say “Isaiah 9:6 proves the Child is God”, than Christian apologists, at-least be truthful with yourselves, and start making the heathen Kings GODS as well, since both passages, Isaiah 9:6, and Ezekiel 32:21 use the exact same words.”
This is so dumb. Everybody knows that a word’s usage is determined by the grammatical context and literary context. Or I guess given your “logic” you now admit that Allah is a moon God since the same word was used even in a different context? 😂😂😂😂
Dude, give up asking people for money to disseminate such ridicoulus dawaganda
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lol.. my goodness..both you goofballs need to take your own advice..Everybody knows that a word’s usage is determined by the grammatical context and literary context…now on that note the NET Bible has an excellent series of footnotes for the verse Isa 9:
http://classic.net.bible.org/passage.php?passage=Isa%209:6-7
Some have seen two titles here (“Wonderful” and “Counselor,” cf. KJV, ASV). However, the pattern of the following three titles (each contains two elements) and the use of the roots פָּלַא (pala’) and יָעַץ (ya’ats) together in Isa 25:1 (cf. כִּי עָשִׂיתָ פֶּלֶא עֵצוֹת מֵרָחוֹק אֱמוּנָה אֹמֶן) and 28:29 (cf. הִפְלִיא עֵצָה) suggest otherwise.
The term יוֹעֵץ (yo’ets) could be taken as appositional (genitive or otherwise) of species (“a wonder, i.e., a wonder as a counselor,” cf. NAB “Wonder-Counselor”) or as a substantival participle for which פָּלַא provides the direct object (“one who counsels wonders”). יוֹעֵץ is used as a royal title elsewhere (cf. Mic 4:9). Here it probably refers to the king’s ability to devise military strategy, as suggested by the context (cf. vv. 3-4 and the following title אֵל גִּבּוֹר, ’el gibor).
In Isa 11:2 (also a description of this king) עֵצָה (’etsah) is linked with גְּבוּרָה (gÿvurah, the latter being typically used of military might, cf. BDB 150 s.v.). Note also עֵצָה וּגְבוּרָה לַמִּלְחָמָה in Isa 36:5. פֶּלֶא (pele’) is typically used of God (cf. however Lam 1:9). Does this suggest the deity of the messianic ruler? The NT certainly teaches he is God, but did Isaiah necessarily have this in mind over 700 years before his birth?
Since Isa 11:2 points out that this king will receive the spirit of the Lord, which will enable him to counsel, it is possible to argue that the king’s counsel is “extraordinary” because it finds its source in the divine spirit. Thus this title does not necessarily suggest that the ruler is deity.
גִּבּוֹר (gibbor) is probably an attributive adjective (“mighty God”), though one might translate “God is a warrior” or “God is mighty.” Scholars have interpreted this title is two ways.
A number of them have argued that the title portrays the king as God’s representative on the battlefield, whom God empowers in a supernatural way (see J. H. Hayes and S. A. Irvine, Isaiah, 181-82). They contend that this sense seems more likely in the original context of the prophecy. They would suggest that having read the NT, we might in retrospect interpret this title as indicating the coming king’s deity, but it is unlikely that Isaiah or his audience would have understood the title in such a bold way.
Ps 45:6 addresses the Davidic king as “God” because he ruled and fought as God’s representative on earth. Ancient Near Eastern art and literature picture gods training kings for battle, bestowing special weapons, and intervening in battle. According to Egyptian propaganda, the Hittites described Rameses II as follows: “No man is he who is among us, It is Seth great-of-strength, Baal in person; Not deeds of man are these his doings, They are of one who is unique” (See Miriam Lichtheim, Ancient Egyptian Literature, 2:67).
According to proponents of this view, Isa 9:6 probably envisions a similar kind of response when friends and foes alike look at the Davidic king in full battle regalia. When the king’s enemies oppose him on the battlefield, they are, as it were, fighting against God himself. The other option is to regard this title as a reference to God, confronting Isaiah’s readers with the divinity of this promised “child.” The use of this same title that clearly refers to God in a later passage (Isa 10:21) supports this interpretation.
Other passages depict Yahweh as the great God and great warrior (Deut 10:17; Jer. 32:18). Although this connection of a child who is born with deity is unparalleled in any earlier biblical texts, Isaiah’s use of this title to make this connection represents Isaiah’s attempt (at God’s behest) to advance Israel in their understanding of the ideal Davidic king for whom they long.
This title [“Everlasting Father”] must not be taken in an anachronistic Trinitarian sense. (To do so would be theologically problematic, for the “Son” is the messianic king and is distinct in his person from God the “Father.”) Rather, in its original context the title pictures the king as the protector of his people. For a similar use of “father” see Isa 22:21 and Job 29:16. This figurative, idiomatic use of “father” is not limited to the Bible.
In a Phoenician inscription (ca. 850-800 b.c.) the ruler Kilamuwa declares: “To some I was a father, to others I was a mother.” In another inscription (ca. 800 b.c.) the ruler Azitawadda boasts that the god Baal made him “a father and a mother” to his people. (See ANET 499-500.)
The use of “everlasting” might suggest the deity of the king (as the one who has total control over eternity), but Isaiah and his audience may have understood the term as royal hyperbole emphasizing the king’s long reign or enduring dynasty (for examples of such hyperbolic language used of the Davidic king, see 1 Kgs 1:31; Pss 21:4-6; 61:6-7; 72:5, 17). The New Testament indicates that the hyperbolic language (as in the case of the title “Mighty God”) is literally realized in the ultimate fulfillment of the prophecy, for Jesus will rule eternally.
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So Jesus is “Father” now????
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” the NET Bible has an excellent series of footnotes for the verse Isa 9″
“The NT certainly teaches he is God…
גִּבּוֹר (gibbor) is probably an attributive adjective (“mighty God”)…
The other option is to regard this title as a reference to God, confronting Isaiah’s readers with the divinity of this promised “child.” The use of this same title that clearly refers to God in a later passage (Isa 10:21) supports this interpretation.”
Indeed, it is excellent. In fact, your own appeal to this footnote refutes your dawah pal’s own article 😂😂
Anyway, my point had nothing to do with Isaiah, but the fallacious attempt to use word etymology to translate Ezekiel a certain way. Do try to keep up…
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@Paulus: You still didn’t answer? When did Jesus become “the everlasting Father”? I thought Jesus is the “Son” person of the Trinity not the Father? When did the switch happen ?
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Are you a father?
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BTW: Jesus has commanded his followers to “So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. (Mt23:3).
I wonder why our Christian friends don’t follow Jesus?
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Because your Christian friends live under the new covenant, whereas Jesus’ contemporaries lived under the Old. Simple really.
Try to not rely on bilal’s straw men arguments so much and think for yourself.
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Did Jesus tell you that after “new covenant”, whatever that might mean, you have to stop following his commandments?
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Yep, cause he told us that he had come to fulfill the law.
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Why do people insist on eternaly flogging the dead horse that is Christianity??
It’s apagan abomination .
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Says the person who circles a building like the pagans used to.
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@Paulus: Why do you worship a being who pooped like every human did? I don’t like to use such arguments, but it seems that is the level at which you want to debate . shame!
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Because God incarnated himself into a human nature. Your questions are very easy to answer.
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“Because God incarnated himself into a human nature.” The opposite is true.
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