The Immortal Dies???

Dr. Dale Tuggy of the State University of New York at Fredonia speaks to his audience about the strange thought captured in a Charles Wesley hymn “’Tis mystery all: th’ Immortal dies.” Dr. Tuggy takes up the “contradiction” which is found in the idea that someone who is immortal dies.

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Categories: Christianity, Philosophy

75 replies

  1. This is exactly what Allah (SWT) said via Mohammed (PBUH) that the falshood would be dismantlited and abolished for people to belive truth. There are many who will come to common terms and agree that the trinity is an abomination of satan.

    Liked by 1 person

  2. That’s the whole reason Wesley called it a “mystery” ! Because he understood that Jesus’ Divine nature did not die, but Jesus the person did die.

    the human body died truly. To die does not mean “cease to exist” – it means the separation of the soul/spirit from the body.

    It is a mystery.

    Like

    • Please watch the video

      Liked by 2 people

    • Ken,
      Why would christians keep bringing this idea that death doesn’t mean “Cease to exist” ?
      We simply say that death means mortality, and God by definition is not mortal.
      God by definition has nothing to do with death regardless what death means.

      “the human body died truly”
      Then why would God (i.e. 1 god) sent his Son(i.e. another god) as a sacrifice to take away your sins in the first place? It seems he just created the human Jesus to die for your sins.

      Liked by 1 person

    • If Jesus was essentially immortal then he could not die – EVER! Given that Jesus died, ergo, he is not immortal, ergo Jesus was a mortal human, and not the fully divine immortal God.

      There is no mystery here. Just simple logic.

      Like

    • Ken did you watch the video?

      Liked by 2 people

    • about 15 minutes of it. not enough time right now, but I hope to get to the rest.

      Like

    • Ahh The old “it’s a mystery” last resort …

      Then why does every apologist insist on trying to say it makes logical sense. So much time and effort defending a logical fallacy when all you have to do is say “it’s a mystery just believe”

      I think someone already said hundreds of years ago “if you think you understand it your wrong “

      Like

    • Thirst,
      You’re right, they are always trying to make logical sense out of a “Mystery” – Impossible.

      Dale Tuggy, “The tradition mandated two natures language, and they didn’t really tell you what it meant…and we’re still paying the price for that.” Christians have been arguing ever since the councils of Nicea and Chalcedon over the proper interpretations of the nature of God in relation to Jesus. Confusion has multiplied into more confusion, and trying interpret and explain the Trinity adds even more confusion.

      Like

    • Ibn,

      I agree. The devil is the author of confusion

      Like

    • So the body part dies. The “nature” part lives on. That actually what happens to ALL HUMANS when human’s die. You know, where their body dies and their souls continues living.

      By your explanation there’s nothing special at all about his death. By your explanation it’s just a death of a human person. By your explanation, that’s just a normal death that couldn’t even pay off the (non-existant) original sin.

      Like

  3. According to Dr. Tuggy’s excellent logic:

    -Jesus died
    -Jesus is fully divine
    -No fully divine being has EVER died.
    ergo Jesus is not the fully divine immortal God.

    Dr. Tuggy explains in further detail in the video.

    Liked by 3 people

    • Dr. Tuggy left out key points – not mentioning all the truth of Christian doctrine – therefore his point is wrong.

      -Jesus died
      -Jesus is fully divine (and fully human)
      -No fully divine being has EVER died. (but the human Jesus did die)

      ergo Jesus is vindicated, since His human nature died; and His divine nature provided the power to overcome death and resurrect and His human nature/body of a perfect sinless being, provided the atonement for sins for people from all the nations. (Revelation 5:9; 7:9)

      Like

  4. The only true trinity that makes sense is the affliction that is upon christians which is being Deaf, Dumb & blind at the same time.

    Only questionsl is which one is divine? Your guess is as good as mine…

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  5. If Tuggy is correct, then god does not exist.

    Humans can become immortal from a mortal state. If god cannot manifest as a mortal whilst maintaining his immortality, then humans have capabilities that god does not have. Thus, god cannot exist if he is incapable of physical manifestation.

    Islam fails. Again.

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    • Kev always boils everything down to “Islam.” However, the Muslims are not responible for the illogical problems within Christian theology.

      The problem with Kevs logic, is why would an essentially Omnipotent Immortal Supreme Fully Divine Creator need to have the same capabilities as his creation when his own capabilities far exceed them? There is nothing outside of Kev’s mind that indicates God cannot exist if he is “incapable” of physical manifestation. Maybe it is that God is absolutely capable of doing all things “Inna Allaha kullin shay’in Qadeer” but simply chooses not to. We see that when he revealed his face to a mountain it crumbled. If God physically manifested in the world, the power of his Might and Glory may destroy world. The fact that the world did not implode when Jesus was on earth provides more evidence that he was simply a mere mortal and not that essentially Omnipotent Immortal Supreme Fully Divine Creator God.

      Liked by 2 people

    • Kev3,
      “Humans can become immortal from a mortal state.”

      Are you a Mormon?

      Liked by 2 people

    • “The problem with Kevs logic, is why would an essentially Omnipotent Immortal Supreme Fully Divine Creator need to have the same capabilities as his creation when his own capabilities far exceed them?”

      You missed the point. Kev’ point that tuggy’s view results in people having capabilities greater than God, not that God needs to have our capabilities.

      If humans can live eternally, then it stands to reasons that God could manifest in a human body without disregarding his immortality, otherwise we possess qualities greater than God

      Like

    • Paul, you hypocrite. You are always castigating Sam for name calling but you are the worst offender.

      Like

    • Paulus

      “You missed the point. Kev’ point that tuggy’s view results in people having capabilities greater than God, not that God needs to have our capabilities.”

      That’s too much logic at one time for Ibn to get. He thinks a jumbo jet just flew over his head – it was actually reason and logic.

      Like

  6. “If Tuggy is correct, then god does not exist.”

    Tuggy is correct – mortal god doesn’t exist.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Uni

      If tuggy is correct, then unitarians worship a god who can immortalize human beings, but lacks the capability to manifest in his own temporal creation. Such a god does not exist.

      Any absolutely powerful being would be capable of existing in multiple places, at multiple times, in multiple forms without any loss of attributes.

      The only logical contradiction is that you think timelessness and time are incompatible – in fact, they may merely be two ends of the same spectrum.

      Start at zero, and time yourself to the first second in infinitely small increments of time – you will be waiting a long time and will never get to that first second.

      Like

    • “Without any loss of attributes” you say? In the bible Jesus became incredibly stupid (having lesser knowledge of a fig than a horticulturist of the time) and incredibly weak (Man-God Jesus was even hurt by a spear. Even the Man-God Hercules was invulnerable). By becoming a weak and stupid human, it seems that Jesus have lost his attributes of being a knowing and powerful God.

      It seems that you have a extremely low view of the Creator’s power.

      Like

  7. “If god cannot manifest as a mortal whilst maintaining his immortality”

    What a complete nonsense!

    Mortality and immortality are mutually exclusive qualities.

    Trinitarianism fails forever.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Exactly!!

      Liked by 1 person

    • You guys believe in an eternal and created Koran. What’s the difference?

      Like

    • I’m pretty sure Unitarian and Islam are mutually exclusive ideas as well given the copious amounts of shirk inherent within Islam.

      Like

    • Unitarian

      “Mortality and immortality are mutually exclusive qualities.”

      So the afterlife cannot exist? Therefore god is unlikely to exist.

      Odd that you worship some type of god that has the power to impart immortality on human flesh and souls, yet, he is incapable of existing within his own temporal creation without losing his attribute of immortality.

      LOL!! Your god creates stones that he can’t lift.

      Like

    • unitarian

      “Trinitarianism fails forever.”

      Odd that even moses in the torah represents god as a plural being – scripture speaks loudly of god’s plural nature.

      Odd, also, that out of all the jewish sects around in 1st century palestine, jesus only condemned the extreme monotheistic pharisees and scribes. Should make you think – why don’t you?

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  8. Does the koran exist in eternity? Yes. So its not possible to destroy the koran? Thats right.

    But what if I took a copy of the koran and burnt it. Arent I destroying the koran? No, you are only destroying the physical manifestation of the koran. You cant destroy thr eternal koran.

    If I got a bucket of water from the pacific ocean and left it out in the sun it would eventually evaporate. Have you destroyed the pacific ocean? Yes but not the whole of the pacific ocean.

    Did Jesus die? Yes. Is he God? Yes. Is he the whole of God? No.

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    • You do know that a physical copy isn’t the Quran, it’s a mushaf, right?

      Liked by 1 person

    • Also, you have to clarify what you mean by the Quran.

      When we say it’s eternal, we mean the knowledge of God is eternal, as the Quran is a subset of Allah’s knowledge, it’s not Allah, nor is it part of Allah. It’s just a subset of His knowledge, which is obviously eternal, unless you believe your God created His knowledge. We believe all of Allah’s attributes are eternal, which you probably believe as well.

      Liked by 2 people

    • So Allah’s knowledge is eternal but it is not part of Allah? So you believe in two seperate eternals? Or 99 eternals?

      Islam’s Unitarian tawheed is completely irrational

      Like

    • hashimkhanzada

      Also, you have to clarify what you mean by the Quran.

      When we say it’s eternal, we mean the knowledge of God is eternal, as the Quran is a subset of Allah’s knowledge, it’s not Allah, nor is it part of Allah. It’s just a subset of His knowledge, which is obviously eternal, unless you believe your God created His knowledge. We believe all of Allah’s attributes are eternal, which you probably believe as well.

      LOL. Gobbledygook.

      Allah’s knowledge is not part of allah. Yet, it is eternal. Yet, there is only one eternal being. Yet, his attributes are eternal. Yet, they are not part of him. Yet, yet, blah, blah, blah.

      Allehu Akbar!!!!!

      Like

    • Sorry about that guys, that was a mistake. I meant to say the knowledge isn’t Allah, nor is it separate from Allah. It’s His attribute. Attributes are ‘part’ of him.

      Like

    • Is there some way to edit comments here?

      Like

    • hashimkhanzada

      “Sorry about that guys, that was a mistake. I meant to say the knowledge isn’t Allah, nor is it separate from Allah. It’s His attribute. Attributes are ‘part’ of him.”,/i>

      Awkwardly, Aliyu likes your false professed false doctrine of allah’s attributes.

      Like I always said – tawheed is confusing and makes no sense. Even to muslims.

      Like

    • Kev, the rest of the comment didn’t have anything wrong, so i don’t see why he wouldn’t like it.

      Like

    • Don’t worry hashim, I’ve had Muslims here also say that Allah’s attributes are not part of him. So I don’t think Muslims really have any idea on this. Tawheed forces them and you to assert Unitarian oneness without knowing or understanding the implications of what this involves

      Like

  9. “Did Jesus die? Yes. Is he God? Yes. Is he the whole of God? No.”

    So, the immortal died ! What a contradiction!

    So Jesus is not the whole God? How many percentage of god is he?

    Anyone short of the whole God is not God. God by definition is always 100% God.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Is John 1:1 and Colossians 1:16 the word of God?

      Like

    • uni

      So, the immortal died ! What a contradiction!”

      Geez, what is it about unitarianism that makes people so dense?

      Immortality is a function of time – time is a spectrum that god created and he is therefore not subject to it. False dichotomy fallacies only work on the muslim bros around here.

      Like

  10. Christians are really in a big trouble when it comes to the death of their god.
    Death is the very reason that why God told you this instruction:
    “Stop trusting in mere humans, who have but a breath in their nostrils. Why hold them in esteem?”

    Yes.. You may cry now for following Satan.

    Liked by 1 person

    • That is why the Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead is so wonderful and awesome. His resurrection proved everything He did and said in the 4 Gospels is true, that He is the Messiah, the Son of God, God the Son, the eternal Word who became flesh, born of the virgin, sinless, and was the effective eternal atonement / sacrifice / ransom for our sins.

      Mark 10:45 – “the Son of Man came . . . to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

      “ransom” – when translated into Arabic and Farsi, same root as the word in the Qur’an 37:107 – “We have ransomed him with a mighty sacrifice” – Abraham’s son was saved and ransomed by the substitution of the innocent ram, and that innocent victim was slaughtered.

      John 10:18 – “no one takes My life from Me, I lay it down on My own initiative / voluntarily; and I take it up again by My own authority . . . ” Jesus voluntarily and willing was the sacrifice, and by His own authority and power, raised Himself up from the dead, along with the Father and the Spirit raising Him from the dead.

      Like

    • Also, Satan was defeated by the atonement of Jesus Christ and His work on the cross and resurrection – 1 John 3:8; Colossians 2:14-15; John 12:31; Hebrews 2:14

      Like

    • You haven’t dealt with the big trouble, Ken.
      ‘that He is the Messiah, the Son of God, God the Son’
      “Nevertheless you will die like men And fall like any one of the princes”. Does it sound familiar?

      Also, the incident of Abraham and his son has nothing to do with the christian crazy doctrine!
      Abraham saw a vision from God as a test for Abraham. When Abraham peace be upon him submitted to God, God fulfilled the dream of Abraham by a great ram. That’s it. Clear and simple.

      ‘and that innocent victim was slaughtered’
      Come on, Ken! Are you serious? “The innocent victim”?! 🙂
      Surah 22:37
      “Their meat will not reach Allah , nor will their blood, but what reaches Him is piety from you. Thus have We subjected them to you that you may glorify Allah for that [to] which He has guided you; and give good tidings to the doers of good.”

      Finally, “The wicked become a *RANSOM* for the righteous, and the unfaithful for the upright”.
      Proverbs 21:18

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  11. ““Mortality and immortality are mutually exclusive qualities.”

    “So the afterlife cannot exist?”

    Human creatures are subject to change from a form and condition to a better form and condition – the afterlife. But God Almighty is eternally perfect and thus eternally free of any need to change to another form or condition. Thus, any analogy between human creatures and the eternal and perfect God is fallacious.

    Are the attributes of God perfect and eternal? Yes? Then God remains immortal eternally.

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    • Special pleading.

      Humans are subject to god’s power to achieve immortality. So, your god can immortalize humans, imputing them with the capacity to exist temporally and eternally, when he himself cannot.

      Your reasoning fails.

      Like

  12. “Odd that even moses in the torah represents god as a plural being – scripture speaks loudly of god’s plural nature”

    Where does Moses say that each of the three people is fully god? Nowhere!

    In hundreds of passages, Moses wrote clearly that Yahweh is a singular person, describes Him in singular personal pronouns.

    No any other Prophet ever worshipped three distinct people. Jesus himself worshipped God but the God he worshipped was singular personal God (the Father) – Jesus never worshipped three people.

    The god of the trinitarians is different from the God worshipped by Jesus.

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  13. “So, your god can immortalize humans, imputing them with the capacity to exist temporally and eternally, when he himself cannot.”

    Any change is either did the better or for the worse. As I pointed out above, God changes human creatures to improve their forms and conditions in the afterlife. It is change for the better.

    On the other hand, God is perfect and eternal. This means that God has no need to change His form or condition for any reason whatsoever lest He is not perfect and eternal. So there is no question of God doing to Himself what is contrary to His perfection and eternity. He is unlike imperfect creatures.

    Thus, I repeat, any analogy between human creatures and the eternal and perfect God is fallacious.

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    • “This means that God has no need to change His form or condition for any reason whatsoever lest He is not perfect and eternal.

      Way to miss the point. LOL.

      God has volition and chooses to redeem his creation through incarnation. How that makes him imperfect is something you have to prove, not assert.

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  14. “Any change is either did the better or for the worse”

    Should be:

    “Any change is either for the better or for the worse”

    Sorry for the typos.

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  15. “Throughout the torah god appears as a plurality – not an absolute one.”

    Deuteronomy 4:38 — “Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightest know that the LORD HE is God; there is none else beside HIM.”

    Deuteronomy 32:39 — “See now that I, even I, AM HE, and there is no god with ME: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of MY hand.”

    “Yahweh, HE is God; there is no other besides HIM.” – Deuteronomy 4:35

    The pronouns I, HE, HIM, are used only for a singular person not for three people. Thus, Moses clearly taught that God is absolute One.

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    • Let’s educate the illiterate Muhammadan. Note the implication of this stone kisser. If we show that the same Bible employs plural pronouns, verbs, adjectives, participles etc. for the one true Yahweh then this would prove that Yahweh is plurality of divine Persons, while still being one God.

      The first example:

      “And when God (Elohim) caused me to wander (hita’u) from my father’s house, I said to her, ‘This is the kindness you must do me: at every place to which we come, say of me, He is my brother.’” Genesis 20:13

      The verb hita’u, translated “cause to wander”, is the plural of ta`ah. The text can therefore be translated as, “When Gods (Elohim), they caused me to wander from my father’s house.”

      The second example:

      “and there he built an altar and called the place El-bethel, because there God (Elohim) had revealed himself (nigelu) to him when he fled from his brother.” Genesis 35:7

      The verb that modifies the noun God (Elohim) is nigelu (revealed), which is plural for galah. Thus, the verse literally reads, “Gods, They revealed themselves to him.”

      The third example:

      “For what great nation is there that has a god so near (Elohim qarobim) to it as the Lord our God is to us, whenever we call upon him?” Deuteronomy 4:7

      The adjective qarobim is the plural form of qarob. The verse can thus be translated as, “gods who are so near.” The text is likening Yahweh to gods who are nearby their people to save and protect. The passage is basically saying that, unlike the other nations, the Israelites have been privileged to have their Gods nearby to answer them anytime they call on them.

      The fourth example:

      “But Joshua said to the people, ‘You are not able to serve the LORD, for he is a holy God (Elohim Qadoshim hu). He is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions or your sins.’” Joshua 24:19

      The word translated as “Holy” is the plural adjective qadoshim (“Holy Ones”). The passage can therefore be rendered as, “Gods, the Holy Ones is he.”

      The fifth example:

      “And who is like your people Israel, the one nation on earth whom God went (halaku Elohim) to redeem to be his people, making himself a name and doing for them great and awesome things by driving out before your people, whom you redeemed for yourself from Egypt, a nation and its gods?” 2 Samuel 7:23

      The words, “God went,” are in the plural and literally reads, “Gods, they went to redeem.”

      The sixth example:

      “Mankind will say, ‘Surely there is a reward for the righteous; surely there is a God (Elohim) who judges (shophetim) on earth.’” Psalm 58:11

      David uses the plural shophetim, which if we were to translate it literally would say, “Gods, They judge the earth.”

      The seventh example:

      “I have not learned wisdom, nor have I knowledge of the Holy One (qadoshim). Who has ascended to heaven and come down? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has wrapped up the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son’s name? Surely you know! Proverbs 30:3-4

      Qadoshim in verse 3 is a plural adjective, and is translated as such in the NRSV:

      “I have not learned wisdom, nor have I knowledge of the holy ones.”

      Agur speaks of how terribly ignorant he is of the Holy Ones, and then goes on to mention the incomprehensible acts of God and his Son. This basically establishes that qadoshim here is a numerical plural since Agur clearly refers to two distinct entities, e.g. God and his Son who shares in his Father’s sovereignty and incomprehensibility.

      And now for our final examples:

      “But none says, ‘Where is God my Maker (`osay), who gives songs in the night,’” Job 35:10

      The word ‘osay is the plural participle of asa’ and literally means, “my Makers.”

      “Let Israel be glad in his Maker (`osayw); let the children of Zion rejoice in their King!” Psalm 149:2

      The text literally says “his Makers” because ‘osayw is a plural participle.

      “Remember also your Creator (bora’eyka) in the days of your youth, before the evil days come and the years draw near of which you will say, ‘I have no pleasure in them’;” Ecclesiastes 12:1

      Bora’eyka is a plural participle, which is literally, “your Creators.”

      “For your Maker (`osayika) is your Husband (bo`alayika), the LORD of hosts is his name; and the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer, the God of the whole earth he is called.” Isaiah 54:5

      The word `osayik is the plural participle of asa’ and bo`alayika is the plural noun form of baal, and can therefore be read, “For your Makers are your Husbands.”

      None of these references can be simply brushed aside as cases of the plural of majesty since the OT provides additional evidence that the inspired writers knew that there was more than one Divine Person responsible for creating and making all things.

      For instance, the OT emphatically testifies that God used his Spirit to create and give life to the entire creation:

      “The Spirit of God (rucha el) has made me, and the Breath of the Almighty gives me life.” Job 33:4

      “By his Spirit (barucho) the heavens were made fair; his hand pierced the fleeing serpent.” Job 26:13

      “As God lives, who has taken away my right, and the Almighty, who has made my soul bitter; as long as my breath is in me, and the Spirit of God (warucha eloha) is in my nostrils; my lips will not speak falsehood, and my tongue will not utter deceit.” Job 27:2-4

      “If he should take back his Spirit (rucho) to himself, and gather to himself his Breath, all flesh would perish together, and man would return to dust.” Job 34:14-15

      God’s Holy Spirit is also responsible for replenishing the earth and reviving or resurrecting the dead:

      “For the palace will be forsaken, the populous city deserted; the hill and the watchtower will become dens for ever, a joy of wild asses, a pasture of flocks; until the Spirit (rucha) is poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness becomes a fruitful field, and the fruitful field is deemed a forest.” Isaiah 32:14-15

      “When you hide your face, they are dismayed; when you take away their spirit, they die and return to their dust. When you send forth your Spirit (ruchaka), they are created; and you renew the face of the ground.” Psalm 104:29-30

      “Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. Then you, my people, will know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the LORD have spoken, and I have done it, declares the LORD.’” Ezekiel 37:12-14

      Interestingly, not only do the OT writers affirm that God used his Spirit to create and fashion all things, they further testify that God also employed his Word to do so:

      “By the Word of the LORD the heavens were made, and all their host by the Breath/Spirit (ubarucha) of his mouth.” Psalm 33:6

      What makes this all the more interesting is that the Greek version of the Hebrew Bible, known as the Septuagint (LXX), translates the phrase “by the Word of the LORD” as to logo tou kyriou. What this means is that God used his Logos to make the heavens.

      Lo and behold, this is precisely what the inspired Christian Greek Scriptures teach, i.e. that it was by the Logos of God that creation was brought into being:

      “But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word (to tou theou logo) the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water.” 2 Peter 3:5

      However, the NT takes this a step further and identifies God’s Logos as Jesus Christ, the Logos who became flesh!

      “In the beginning was the Word (ho logos), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men… He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world knew him not… And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.” John 1:1-4, 10, 14

      Hence, Jesus is the Logos or Word whom God used to bring the entire creation into existence!

      What makes this guy such a joke is that he actually thinks he knows a thing or two about logic while following a vile antichrist and false prophet who had no clue what logic was!

      Like

  16. “God has volition and chooses to redeem his creation through incarnation. How that makes him imperfect is something you have to prove, not assert.”

    God’s attributes are all attributes of perfection – immortality, immutability, etc. Attributes of creatures are by definition attributes of imperfection – mortality, mutability etc.

    Where are God’s attributes of absolute perfection and eternity if He NEEDS to have attributes of imperfection such as mortality and mutability to be able to save His creatures?

    Like

  17. “Odd, also, that out of all the jewish sects around in 1st century palestine, jesus only condemned the extreme monotheistic pharisees and scribes. Should make you think – why don’t you?”

    So Jesus condemned “extreme monotheism”! What then was Jesus, loose monotheist or extreme polytheist? !

    Like

  18. Steve Hayes again schools a rather repulsive unitarian heretic named Dale Tuggy who thinks he knows a thing or two about logic: http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2017/04/the-immortal-dies.html

    He also manages pwning your vile antichrist of a false prophet in the process.

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    • Indeed, Steve Hays demolished Dale Tuggy’s argument.

      especially here:

      9. Tuggy says that according to the two-natures doctrine, Jesus had “two selves; one died and one lived on”. But that’s inaccurate. The rational soul of Jesus didn’t cease to exist. Even if, for the sake of argument, we use Tuggy’s “two-self” rubric, both “selves” survived the crucifixion. A human being is not reducible to his body.

      Like

    • At the moment of death until the soul arrives in the sheol, the soul alongside the person must die altogether. That’s why the proper burial is sacred. The Bibles says there’s no memory or knowledge in death. After reaching the sheol, the soul regains life again.
      Eccl 9:5
      For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
      Isa 26:14
      They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.

      Like

  19. Abdullah 1423 wrote:

    You haven’t dealt with the big trouble, Ken.
    ‘that He is the Messiah, the Son of God, God the Son’
    “Nevertheless you will die like men And fall like any one of the princes”. Does it sound familiar?

    Yes, I have dealt with that; Jesus’ human body died truly in history on the cross. He was the sinless Son of God, Son of Man, God the Son and truly died for our sins.

    Even Islam believes that souls / spirits continue to live on after death and will all one day either be in paradise or hell, so you have no good argument, since death does not mean “cease to exist”.

    But, He rose from the dead on the third day, which proves His Deity, power, truthfulness, and the effective power of His atonement for sins.

    Also, the incident of Abraham and his son has nothing to do with the christian crazy doctrine!

    Yes it does, since the OT teaches substitutionary atonement ( Genesis 22, Leviticus chapters 1-7; Isaiah 53) and the NT tells us this historical narrative in Genesis 22 is a prophesy of Jesus the Messiah. (John 1:29; Mark 10:45; Matthew 28:20; etc.) Genesis 22:18 – through you and your seed (Messiah – Galatians 3:6-8; Galatians 3:16) all the families of the earth will be blessed because you obeyed My voice”. “God will provide the lamb” (Genesis 22:7-8)

    Also, in another way, the historical event of Abraham and his son is a prophesy of another aspect of the Father and the Son of God – “take your only unique son, the son of your love” (Genesis 22:2) = a prophesy of God’s willingness to give His only unique Son – John 3:16 for the sins of the world. The Father said several times, “You are My beloved Son, in whom I am will pleased”. (Mark 1:11; Mark 9:7)

    Abraham saw a vision from God as a test for Abraham. When Abraham peace be upon him submitted to God, God fulfilled the dream of Abraham by a great ram. That’s it. Clear and simple.

    We agree that it was a test from God for Abraham – Genesis 22:1 tells us this. It was much more, as the rest of Genesis 22:1-18 tells us.

    ‘and that innocent victim was slaughtered’
    Come on, Ken! Are you serious? “The innocent victim”?! 🙂

    Yes, the OT (see above) speaks of atonement of the innocent animal for the guilty humans. Add Leviticus 16-17 (Day of Atonement, even a prominent Rabbi Michael Skobac (that even Paul Williams has promoted at his blogs over the years) admitted that Jesus’ atonement is parallel to the day of Atonement – see my article on that at apologetics and agape dot com. and Daniel 9:24-27 (concepts of Messiah to come in the future and atonement for sin together).

    Surah 22:37
    “Their meat will not reach Allah , nor will their blood, but what reaches Him is piety from you. Thus have We subjected them to you that you may glorify Allah for that [to] which He has guided you; and give good tidings to the doers of good.”

    The Qur’an comes 600 years later after substitutionary atonement is already established in both the OT and the NT, so that verse means nothing, since it contradicts the previous Scriptures and is not even inspired anyway. It is just one man’s claim.

    Finally, “The wicked become a *RANSOM* for the righteous, and the unfaithful for the upright”.
    Proverbs 21:18

    The ram / sheep / lambs in the OT are not “wicked” – they did not do anything wrong. So your application of that verse is wrong. Also, the Qur’an agrees that Jesus was sinless and pure – Surah 19:19, so that verse cannot be an application to Jesus either.

    So, you have not given any good argument at all.

    Like

    • ‘Yes, I have dealt with that’
      Ken, you’re not in your church here!
      We know that you have not dealt with any implication of the concept of god who dies, which contradicts the OT as the sun, and it contradicts the definition of what God is.
      Then as I said before :
      Why would christians keep bringing the idea that death doesn’t mean “Cease to exist” ?
      We simply say that death means mortality, and God by definition is not mortal.
      God by definition has nothing to do with death regardless what death means.

      “the human body died truly”
      Then why would God (i.e. 1 god) sent his Son(i.e. another god) as a sacrifice to take away your sins in the first place? Your bible say that Gid has sent his son! It seems he just created the human Jesus to die for your sins
      And let’s not forget that christians destroy the concept of incarnation and its purpose once they bring this argument up.

      ‘He rose from the dead on the third day, which proves His Deity’
      What kind of argument is this? The resurrection by itself doesn’t mean that Jesus is god! If that had happened, then Jesus would have been the prophet who got resurrected by his God. That’s it.
      All human beings will be resurrected eventually, btw.

      The rest of your comment is just a desperate interpretation that we keep getting frm christians, which is by the most doesn’t make any sense.

      ‘The ram / sheep / lambs in the OT are not “wicked” ‘
      You’ve missed the point. God is telling you the wicked is a RANSOM for the righteous one.

      Finally, Quran is the criterion and the light from God. It clarifies many things made by monks and rabbis, but in this very case your bible could be used only to tell you the idea of god dying has nothing to do with Abraham peace be up on him.

      Like

  20. In this lecture, beginning at around the 1:29:00 mark (between the one hour and 29 minute mark and 1 hour 32 minute mark)- Rabbi Michael Skobac admits that the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur = יום כפר ) of Leviticus 16 is the closest parallel to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ! He tried to argue that Jesus did not fulfill the Passover the Sacrifice, yet the New Testament teaches just that. (John 1:29; 1 Corinthians 5:7) Jesus fulfilled the passover lamb also, as “not a bone of him was broken”. (see Exodus 12:46 and John 19:33, 36) One of the most amazing things he says is that the Passover sacrifice has nothing to do with sin! Really? The idolatry and the false gods of Egypt was not sin? The Passover sacrifice was a judgment against the idolatry and false gods of Egypt. (Exodus 12:12) Only by the substitutionary sacrifice of an innocent lamb and the blood applied to the doorposts would the judging angels of the wrath of God be stopped. This is also a further development of what Abraham said when Isaac asked him, “Where is the lamb for the sacrifice?” Abraham answered, “God will provide for Himself the lamb”. (see Genesis 22:7-8)

    https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2013/07/07/rabbi-admits-that-the-day-of-atonement-is-parallel-to-jesus-christ/

    Like

  21. For Abdullah1423

    God cannot die; but Jesus who had 2 natures, did indeed die – His human body died. (God the Trinity cannot die = the Father cannot die or cease to exist, the Divine nature of the Son cannot die; and the Holy Spirit cannot “die” or “cease to exist”.)

    God is eternal, both eternally into the past and future; He cannot cease to exist. To say that God is immortal is a way of speaking that the Divine nature cannot be caused to cease to exist.
    Since the Word became a human – John 1:1, 1:14, then He can die, and only His human body is affected by death.

    So, you have not advanced the debate at all.

    Jesus’ resurrection proved He was the Son of God, the same nature as God the Father ( homo-ousias = same nature/same substance), and that His atonement was effective.

    Again, Genesis 22 is proved by the NT meaning (John 1:29; Mark 10:45), as the Qur’an calls the OT and the NT guidance and light

    وَقَفَّيْنَا عَلَىٰ آثَارِهِم بِعِيسَى ابْنِ مَرْيَمَ مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ التَّوْرَاةِ ۖ وَآتَيْنَاهُ الْإِنجِيلَ فِيهِ هُدًى وَنُورٌ وَمُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ التَّوْرَاةِ وَهُدًى وَمَوْعِظَةً لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ
    Surah 5:46

    but the NT does not call some other revelation 600 years later after it, “guidance and light”; since the NT is the final revelation. (Jude 3 “the faith once for all time delivered to the saints”, Hebrews 1:1-3 “in these last days He has spoken finally through His Son (and His apostles and helpers of the apostles wrote it all down); Revelation 22:18 -don’t add to the book of Revelation, and by the same principle don’t add to the NT revelation.)

    You believe in Yahya (John the baptizer) and He said that Jesus was that ” lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world”. John 1:29 – Yahya is saying Jesus is the one that God provides for Himself, in Genesis 22:7-8.

    This was fulfillment of Genesis 22:7-8 and 22:17-18; and the fulfillment of the Passover lamb of Exodus 12, that took away the sin and wrath of God against sin – 1 Cor. 5:7; 2 Cor. 5:21; Hebrews 10:10-14; 1 Peter 1:18

    Proverbs 21:18 is not teaching that wicked people are an atoning ransom for sins, rather that God will judge the wicked when they try to persecute the righteous, many times in the afterlife, when they try to destroy the righteous, as in Haman, when he tried to destroy the Jews, his plot was discovered and he himself was hung on the very same hangman’s noose that he had built for executing Jews. (the book of Esther) God judges evil. It harmonizes with Proverbs 11:8 – “the righteous man is rescued from trouble, and it comes on the wicked instead.”

    Like

    • Death does not mean ‘cease to exist’. You’ll die one day, but you won’t cease to exist.

      Like

    • Precisely hashim. So We can Say Jesus died, or even God died, without meaning ceasing to exist.

      Like

    • The thing is, God is immortal according to the bible. You can only say the human Jesus died, and the sacrifice was a human one. None of the persons in the trinity died.

      1 Timothy 6:16

      New Living Translation
      He alone can never die, and he lives in light so brilliant that no human can approach him. No human eye has ever seen him, nor ever will. All honor and power to him forever! Amen.

      New International Version
      who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

      Like

    • Ken,
      I will not go through all the nonsense that you wrote about my points, especially the verses from your bible that you still have not dealt with any.

      I just have simple questions to show you how weak the falsehood is.
      If the human, ( the created part ) of Jess who died, then why do you have a problem with affirming that death is something which has nothing do with God? You should have said “I agree with you Abdullah”.
      Moreover, if the human ( the created part) of Jesus who died, then why do you keep insisting that the resurrection of that mere human being is the proof that he is God? God didn’t die in the first place. Remember?

      Yes…you may cry for following satan.

      Like

  22. kev3

    March 31, 2017 • 5:01 pm

    If Tuggy is correct, then god does not exist.

    Humans can become immortal from a mortal state. If god cannot manifest as a mortal whilst maintaining his immortality, then humans have capabilities that god does not have. Thus, god cannot exist if he is incapable of physical manifestation.

    Islam fails. Again.

    I say;
    This is the thinking of Idol worshipers and it is idolatry and polytheism punishable in hell fire, if one does not repent and become a Muslim. Islam passed and idolatry thinking above fails.

    Proof:

    -If God is mortal why did He clearly said He(God) is immortal?
    -Why did God not say He can become mortal from immortal state?
    -I swear, it is only a fool and an idol worshiper who thinks immortal(does not die) means mortal(does die). If the Almighty said He is immortal, why say he is mortal? You are in for trouble when you meet your creator. As Unitarian Christian said here. Mortal and immortal are different and opposite i.e. impossibility. It is impossible for immortal to become mortal. It is like a bachelor cannot be married at the same time.

    ——————–
    Kev3
    April 1, 2017 • 6:31 am
    uni

    “So, the immortal died ! What a contradiction!”

    Geez, what is it about unitarianism that makes people so dense?

    Immortality is a function of time – time is a spectrum that god created and he is therefore not

    I say;
    Your response is unintelligible and incomprehensible here. What do you mean? God is not immortal? You forgot your Bible said God is immortal?

    ——————–

    Kev3
    April 1, 2017 • 6:27 am
    Uni

    If tuggy is correct, then unitarians worship a god who can immortalize human beings, but lacks the capability to manifest in his own temporal creation. Such a god does not exist.

    Any absolutely powerful being would be capable of existing in multiple places, at multiple times, in multiple forms without any loss of attributes.

    The only logical contradiction is that you think timelessness and time are incompatible – in fact, they may merely be two ends of the same spectrum.

    Start at zero, and time yourself to the first second in infinitely small increments of time – you will be waiting a long time and will never get to that first second.subject to it. False dichotomy fallacies only work on the muslim bros around here

    I repeat Mr/Maddam Kev3 quotes.

    “Any absolutely powerful being would be capable of existing in multiple places, at multiple times, in multiple forms without any loss of attributes.

    The only logical contradiction is that you think timelessness and time are incompatible – in fact, they may merely be two ends of the same spectrum.”

    I say;
    Yes, like the Mormons God who in multiple forms in multiple places at multiple times. Like the idols wh
    Yes, like the idols that exists in multiple forms in multiple places at multiple times.

    Kev3. The Bible said, anyone who worships anything in multiple forms in multiple places at multiple times is an idol worshiper and it means you are an idol worshiper.

    Proof.

    -When the Israelite were worshiping a golden calf, God cursed them. If God can exist in Multiple forms, why will He curse the Jews for worshiping a form(golden calf) at different place and time?

    Exodus 20:2-6

    2 “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 3 “You shall have no other gods before me. 4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

    Kev3 is about worshiping form, form everywhere and every time. The Bible says it is idolatry and Kev3 proved he is an idolater.

    Kev3, repent today and become a Muslim, otherwise the hell fire is waiting for you.

    John 4: 21-25

    21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

    Your Bible said worship God in spirit and not forms and images. You are insisting God can become a form(Jesus) to be worshiped. You are deep in the blazing fires of hell. You can repent and become a Muslim to prevent this Kev3.

    Thanks.

    Like

  23. kev3

    March 31, 2017 • 5:01 pm

    If Tuggy is correct, then god does not exist.

    Humans can become immortal from a mortal state. If god cannot manifest as a mortal whilst maintaining his immortality, then humans have capabilities that god does not have. Thus, god cannot exist if he is incapable of physical manifestation.

    Islam fails. Again.

    I say;
    This is the thinking of Idol worshipers and it is idolatry and polytheism punishable in hell fire, if one does not repent and become a Muslim. Islam passed and idolatry thinking above fails.

    Proof:

    -If God is mortal why did He clearly said He(God) is immortal?
    -Why did God not say He can become mortal from immortal state?
    -I swear, it is only a fool and an idol worshiper who thinks immortal(does not die) means mortal(does die). If the Almighty said He is immortal, why say he is mortal? You are in for trouble when you meet your creator. As Unitarian Christian said here. Mortal and immortal are different and opposite i.e. impossibility. It is impossible for immortal to become mortal. It is like a bachelor cannot be married at the same time.

    ——————–
    Kev3
    April 1, 2017 • 6:31 am
    uni

    “So, the immortal died ! What a contradiction!”

    Geez, what is it about unitarianism that makes people so dense?

    Immortality is a function of time – time is a spectrum that god created and he is therefore not

    I say;
    Your response is unintelligible and incomprehensible here. What do you mean? God is not immortal? You forgot your Bible said God is immortal?

    ——————–

    Kev3
    April 1, 2017 • 6:27 am
    Uni

    If tuggy is correct, then unitarians worship a god who can immortalize human beings, but lacks the capability to manifest in his own temporal creation. Such a god does not exist.

    Any absolutely powerful being would be capable of existing in multiple places, at multiple times, in multiple forms without any loss of attributes.

    The only logical contradiction is that you think timelessness and time are incompatible – in fact, they may merely be two ends of the same spectrum.

    Start at zero, and time yourself to the first second in infinitely small increments of time – you will be waiting a long time and will never get to that first second.subject to it. False dichotomy fallacies only work on the muslim bros around here

    I repeat Mr/Maddam Kev3 quotes.

    “Any absolutely powerful being would be capable of existing in multiple places, at multiple times, in multiple forms without any loss of attributes.

    The only logical contradiction is that you think timelessness and time are incompatible – in fact, they may merely be two ends of the same spectrum.”

    I say;
    Yes, like the Mormons God who in multiple forms in multiple places at multiple times. Like the idols wh
    Yes, like the idols that exists in multiple forms in multiple places at multiple times.

    Kev3. The Bible said, anyone who worships anything in multiple forms in multiple places at multiple times is an idol worshiper and it means you are an idol worshiper.

    Proof.

    -When the Israelite were worshiping a golden calf, God cursed them. If God can exist in Multiple forms, why will He curse the Jews for worshiping a form(golden calf) at different place and time?

    Exodus 20:2-6

    2 “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 3 “You shall have no other gods before me. 4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

    Kev3 is about worshiping form, form everywhere and every time. The Bible says it is idolatry and Kev3 proved he is an idolater.

    Kev3, repent today and become a Muslim, otherwise the hell fire is waiting for you.

    John 4: 21-25

    21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

    Your Bible said worship God in spirit and not forms and images. You are insisting God can become a form(Jesus) to be worshiped. You are deep in the blazing fires of hell. You can repent and become a Muslim to prevent this Kev3.

    Thanks.

    Like

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