As a former born again Christian myself I find Julian Bond’s insight to ring true. Julian is a Christian writer based in the UK.
Categories: Christianity, Islam, Wisdom
- Comment
- Reblog
-
Subscribe
Subscribed
Already have a WordPress.com account? Log in now.
Blogging Theology 
Not to mention we experience it without the holy spirit.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Renegade!
LikeLiked by 2 people
Did you have the experience if being slained in the spirit and speaking in tongues etc?
LikeLiked by 2 people
A minister once prayed for me to be slain in the spirit and to speak in tongues but nothing happened. I was very open to the experience. I felt guilty afterwards.
LikeLike
Now I am embarrassed. All these years I have been criticising pagan paulians for talking utter rubbish and drivel when in fact they were just speaking in tongues. It all makes sense now…
“Glossolalia or speaking in tongues, according to linguists, is the fluid vocalizing of speech-like syllables that LACK ANY READILY COMPREHENDED MEANING, in some cases as part of religious practice in which it is believed to be a divine language unknown to the speaker.”
LikeLiked by 1 person
I wonder what Richard Zetter thinks about the above comment. He seems to think that such spiritual regeneration/salvation is an exclusive “personal experience” which only he and his fellow Christians can truly know and feel.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Yes that is right he does. But his experience is limited to the Christian faith. God is bigger than Christianity.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Would you also say that God is bigger than Islam and affirm those experiences of Christians as potentially authentic?
LikeLike
Yes potentially
LikeLike
Would that mean that Christianity and other religions could also be considered authentic paths to God if indeed such communication takes place?
LikeLike
Yes and no
LikeLike
If this is the case what need is there for the Qur’an?
LikeLike
To confirm the Truth of whatever remains of previous divine religions.
LikeLiked by 3 people
But we know that God can confirm the truth in other faiths without creating another religion. Why didn’t he preserve Christianity or Judaism?
LikeLike
Good question! The Quran says something on the lines of it being the responsibility of the priests and rabbis of previous religions to guard the revelation given to them, which they clearly failed to do. God says that He will guard the purity of the Final Revelation to mankind. As such it will remain uncorrupted till the End. That is His promise.
LikeLiked by 2 people
If all texts scriptures and religions were preserved, then as patrobin said there would be multiple paths, but there would also be confusion in regard to discerning between true authentic paths and falsely innovated paths. As God is not the author of confusion, he created the basic truths which are contained within the core teachings of all previous authentic revelations which also lead to the straight path along which the seeker can be safely guided towards the one ultimate truth.
God did not preserve the previous scriptures because for a long period of time, there was a continuous chain of progressive revelation. The unpreserved state of previous scriptures and/or religions creates an opportunity for those who are seekers to discern the truth from falsehood within their own religious traditions. By accepting the truth and rejecting falsehoods, these seekers can then follow the truth which will always lead to an intersection between their own religious tradition and the straight path which they can then follow home into Islam and discover the ultimate truth of God’s progressive revelatory message to mankind which was culminated in the final revelation of Qur’an.
LikeLike
Ibn
That seems like a really overly complex way of getting to a place that could have easily been done without all of the pot holes. How can people be blamed for being deceived if God allowed this to happen and only solved the problem relatively recently and only now has said religion been spread to countries beyond the east?
Paul
God is according to Islam the one who predestines everything that happens including those priests and rabbis failing in their mandate to preserve the previous scriptures and therefore all the confusion that come out as a result of their failure. It seems God is the author of confusion in the most literal sense possible.
Does not the Qur’an appeal to both the Torah and Gospel to prove itself and that people should judge the Qur’an according to those sources? Does this not affirm their truthfulness because it does not make the kind of distinctions that are often made by Muslims on these texts being partially true.
LikeLike
Patrobin,
It does not matter that Islam did not spread to all areas of the world, as there is an allowance that those who never knew or understood Islam clearly can still achieve salvation according to their own books or beliefs. But once Islam is understood, one is judged by standard of Qur’an.
The previous religions were valid in their time and place, and may still be valid for those in whom Islam has not yet entered their heart and mind. Those people have not been deceived by God, but rather by themselves and by those men who innovated and added to the religion which God had originally revealed to their prophet(s). Therefore, God is not the author of confusion, man is the author of confusion. By allowing man free thought and choice, it could be said that God has in effect allowed man to create such confusion and innovation, but for a reason. Because of such innovations, the previous religions, scriptures, texts were not preserved…BY DESIGN – in order to serve a higher purpose. That purpose is to serve as a roadmap, for those who are able to discern truth from falsehood, and guide the seeker back to the straight path which leads to Islam. Without all the “potholes” there is no test, no motivation, no reason to seek the truth. That is why previous messages were not preserved, because it is a test to determine who will follow Gods truth (even if it leads into Islam) and who will follow the religion of man.
Allah is THE ONE and his religion is one, his message is one, he sent down his message to many prophets amongst many peoples, in progressive revelatory chain, gradually preparing people, and increasing their understanding and knowledge. All of which culminates in the final revelation to mankind in Qur’an.
In regard to the Qur’an speaking about Torah and Gospel, that is within a certain context. The Qur’an also makes clear that those messages have been distorted and altered.
So woe to those who write the “scripture” with their own hands, then say, “This is from Allah ,” in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn. Qur’an 2:79 – See also Qur’an 5:41
LikeLiked by 1 person
Where in the Qur’an or Ahadith does it say that Muslims get a new heart (Ezekiel 36:26-27), or are “born-again” (John 3:1-10) or are regenerated (Titus 3:5) or have a new nature ( 2 Corinthians 5:17) or are made “partakers of the Divine nature” ( 2 Peter 1:3-4) or had their sinful unregenerate self crucified ( Romans 6:6; Galatians 2:20) or have the Holy Spirit (John 7:37-39; Acts 1:8; Romans 5:5; 8:9; Ephesians 1:13; 1 Corinthians 12:13) or have been freed from the slavery and dominion of sin (Romans 6:6-7, 6:18, 6:22, John 8:36) ??
LikeLike
I thought this post would get your attention Ken!
LikeLiked by 2 people
So, you put it up for me especially? how nice! You were missing me not commenting here, it seems. Thanks!
so, how about answering the question?
LikeLiked by 1 person
Ken,
If you take your Jesus goggles off for a moment you may see what Julian Bond honestly says is very clear to him in the above twitter tweet.
There are many verses in the Qur’an as well as Hadeeth that speak of God forgiving the sins of those who sincerely repent. As well as sins being forgiven in other ways (i.e. Shahadah, Rahmah, etc.) Muslims can and do experience spiritual regeneration through the forgiveness of sins by Allah. A sinner can be regenerated and made whole through God’s forgiveness, as well as through the peace that they find in the reading and recitation of Qur’an and the practice of Islam, all of which leads to salvation in the eternal gardens of paradise.
Regeneration and Salvation do not have to meet with your own NT exclusivist definition in order to manifest in the lives of Muslims, through the purifying and salvific mechanisms of Islam.
LikeLiked by 2 people
“… or have been freed from the slavery and dominion of sin”
Megafail
LikeLike
Prove that christians get new hearts when they embrace the paganism of christianity! I challenge you to prove this stupid argument.
All what we see that you’re more than happy for living a secular life which doesn’t give Sh*t for the commandments of Allah.(i.e you’re happy that you’re like animals).
It’s the fruits of your prophet Paul.
Moreover. let’s be honest, Ken! Many christians who believe in the Christ as their lord and their saviour are living a sinful life. This’s the real world!, yet you believe that they are saved since Jesus has paid for their sins already.
In contrast, Islam teaches you that the broken heart before Allah is the most important thing
“So is one whose breast Allah has expanded to [accept] Islam and he is upon a light from his Lord [like one whose heart rejects it]? Then woe to those whose hearts are hardened against the remembrance of Allah . Those are in manifest error.
Allah has sent down the best statement: a consistent Book wherein is reiteration. The skins shiver therefrom of those who fear their Lord; then their skins and their hearts relax at the remembrance of Allah . That is the guidance of Allah by which He guides whom He wills. And one whom Allah leaves astray – for him there is no guide.”
The prophet ﷺ said
“There is a piece of flesh in the body if it becomes good (reformed) the whole body becomes good but if it gets spoilt the whole body gets spoilt and that is the heart”Sahih Al Bukhari
The matter of the broken heart is exactly the opposite of what christians teach since you rely on the “perfect sacrifice “. However, Psalms 51:16-17 reads “You do not desire a sacrifice, or I would offer one. You do not want a burnt offering.The sacrifice you desire is a broken spirit. You will not reject a broken and repentant heart, O God.”
”
The prophet, Moses, Jesus, and all the prophets are agianst the paganism of christianity.
LikeLike
forgiveness of sins is one thing and the Qur’an mentions that; but nowhere does the Qur’an speak of any of those things like gaining a new heart or being regenerated or having their nature changed.
LikeLike
Ken,
Again, the Qur’an does not have to meet Ken Temples exclusivist understanding of what it means to be regenerated and changed. The Qur’an often communicates similar concepts but in a different way.
There are Hadeeth which refer to Allah by the name “Muqalb Al-Quloob” meaning “Turner of Hearts.” Such a name indicates that the one who enters into Islam with pure intentions has a change of heart, or a new heart, for Allah has turned his heart and made him firm upon the religion. Or Allah has turned the heart of the sinner, and made his nature obedient in worship.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Again, where in the Qur’an does it speak of regeneration or a change of nature or being born-again??
It would be nice if you give at least one Hadith reference to the “turner of hearts” phrase you assert.
LikeLike
@Ibn Issam
I think Ken raised a good question. I’ve been with deeply commited muslims and christians. Christians in my experience had more dramatic changes in their spiritual life. They were more passionate towards God, full of love and devotion. I have met really incredible christians that have often left me amazed by their complete change of life.
I understand more clearly what Christian mean when they speak about having a personal relationship with God.
While many commited muslims also had dramatic changes to their life, certinantly living a more God-fearing and righteous life, but to be honest, that does not make it so much different to any change of lifestyle and attitude that any commitment to some way of life does.
I really think the christians have a greater inner experience of God.
This is again in my observation and experience. I shall also point out that the christians i have met were evangelicals of the lutheran and charismatic types. The muslims were almost all salafists.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Thanks Poiterfrance !
LikeLiked by 1 person
“I really think the christians have a greater inner experience of God.”
Maybe because you are conditioned to think that way.
Repetition of phrases don’t make them true.
In my experience the “evangelicals of the lutheran and charismatic types” are the worst.
After being “regenerated spiritually” their natures change to be misanthropes a priori.
See doctrine of “total depravity”.
LikeLiked by 2 people
The problem is Sam is a spirit filled Christian yet he is vile and abusive. How can this be Ken? I suspect he might be a better person if he were not a Christian.
LikeLiked by 2 people
That’s easy Brother Paul. He is one idiot with 2 natures, one of a liar and the other a hypocrite.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Thank you for the insightful clarification
LikeLiked by 1 person
@Burhanuddin
I thought I made it clear that this was my own experience. That’s why i added what category of christians and muslims i have interacted with.
I don’t deny that there are muslims who might have a deep spiritual experience of God in their devotion. I just haven’t met those muslims. The muslims i met were not like what i saw in the christians.
I also observed that amongst eastern orthodox and roman catholic adherents there was nothing like what i saw amongst evangelicals.
On the other hand there are some really interesting spiritual traditions based on the indian Upanishads and Sufism, with spiritual masters like Farid uddin Attar and Rumi amongst others. I have’t met any practioners of those traditions but they also seem to have a profound and life changing spiritual experience.
So i certinantly don’t think evangelicals are unique in this.
LikeLike
Rumi of course was a Muslim and is widely read and followed in the Muslim world today.
LikeLike
“I don’t deny that there are muslims who might have a deep spiritual experience of God in their devotion. I just haven’t met those muslims.”
How would you know? Sorry, but who are you to judge if someone has “deep spiritual experience of God”?
Ridiculous, sorry.
LikeLiked by 1 person
@Burhanuddin
I made this observation comparing salafists with evangelicals. Do salafists love God? Yes. Are they eager in their devotion to God? Yes. Is there a difference between how salafists and christians view how God relate to his worshipers? Yes.
Salafists do not belive in being spiritual born again at least not in the biblical sense. As Ken pointed out there is no indwelling of the Holy Spirit or being one with Christ. Doesn’t this affect how christians and said muslims experience God? I think so.
Maybe that explains why observed the difference i did. I am sorry but sometimes i would be in salafist lectures were they spend goodness knows how much time on this like the correct way of wiping your socks and what would be considered bid’ah etc. This does indeed sound more legalistic rather than spiritual to me.
LikeLike
I am sorry but your personal experience/preference is no standard in these matters. And you are shifting the goalposts now. My advice:practice instead observation.
LikeLiked by 1 person
@Burahanuddin
I am sorry this is not about preference. I did not interact with salafists as an outsider, like a tourist or something. I was a believing muslim. Thankfully i was not dogmatic. Otherwise i would just like you comment on internet against other non-muslims just to score points.
LikeLike
Why are you no longer Muslim?
LikeLike
Interesting. And non sequitur.
Actually I do not condemn humanity by default, I am not forced by “regenerated spiritually” to be a misanthrope like your exceptional evangelical devotees.
A point you chose to ignore instead of waffling about spiritual supremacy.
It’s easy to score points on that basis. I leave it at that.
LikeLike
“Thankfully i was not dogmatic. Otherwise i would just like you comment on internet against other non-muslims just to score points.”
Gheee!
Moreover, if christians really take the spirituality seriously. I mean in that sense that try to present it with, then why don’t we see it in their lives? What kind of spirituality that christians are talking about while they are soaked to their bones with all kind of sins? For God sake, what is that spirituality that they’re talking about!? Is it invisible?
Implicitly, they mock it. They say it’s a joke,and from their fruits, you know them.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I think its projection. The idea of regeneration comes from christianity so I suspect people from that background, when converting to Islam, carry their Christian heritage into their new faith.
If you go to Indonesia and ask a Muslim about regeneration, they won’t have the faintest clue, because they are not prone to Christian influence in their Islam like the western Muslims here.
LikeLike
“The idea of regeneration comes from christianity”
sheer Christian spiritual arrogance – with no evidence to prove it.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Exactly it is Christian spiritual arrogance.
Of course the lay Indonesian Muslim won’t understand Christian terminology, because they aren’t Christian. But speak to them of Shahadah, Tazkiyat al-Qalb, or Ihsan, or Tawbah, Ghafoor, and the inner change that comes through those Islamic mechanisms and they will understand clearly and probably be able to teach you a thing or two.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Bilal.
Christianity predates Islam by 600 years. Its not arrogance, its history.
LikeLike
Islam has always existed as the original primordial faith. To explain in Christian jargon:
“Before Abraham, Islam!”
LikeLiked by 2 people
So why did Muhammad say he was the first Muslim? Thanks for demonstrating. Simple contradiction in Islam.
“This am I commanded, and I am the first of the Muslims. S. 6:163 Rodwell”
LikeLiked by 1 person
It’s not a contradiction. The verse is saying he is the first of the Muslims within the context of his time and people. It’s not saying he(saw) is the first ‘ever’ Muslim. Simple difference.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Where does the verse say that?
Let me get this straight, Islam was the first and ongoing religion of Adam, but there were no Muslims present during Muhammad’s time, nor do we have any historical evidence to support such a claim. Hmm, almost makes sense…
Or better yet, Muhammad was the first Muslim, because, you know, he was the first Muslim and he also told us he was the first Muslim.
LikeLike
Interesting. Muhammad can be the “first” of multiples before and after, but Muslims insist that “one” must only be understood in an Unitarian sense.
I smell self contradiction building…
LikeLike
I smell troll
LikeLiked by 2 people
congrats to a regenerated trolling heart
LikeLiked by 1 person
Paulus : “Where does the verse say that?”
A simple understanding of the context shows that Allah(swt) is asking Muhammad(saw) to tell the people around him. Read verse 162 and 163 together to know what the emphasis is about. It’s not about teaching them who is the first EVER Muslim.
There were monotheists (hanifs) at the time of Muhammad(saw) who believed in only one God.
Paulus : “Muhammad can be the “first” of multiples before and after, but Muslims insist that “one” must only be understood in an Unitarian sense. I smell self contradiction building”
I smell confusion by the Holy Spirit.
By the way, can you tell me who was the first Christian ? Was Adam a Christian ? Was Moses a Christian ? Was even Jesus a Christian ?
LikeLiked by 1 person
No, no and no. The term “Christians” was applied to an early church- read Acts of the Apostles for more info. But nice try at changing the topic.
Rather than just making statements, please explain how Muhammad can be the first of many before and after, but the same logic cannot be applied to God? If its not inherently contradictory for one, then it cannot be for the other, not without good reason anyway.
I like that you appeal to context as well. I wonder if you allow Christians the same courtesy? You see, I don’t actually deny your interpretation, its just a good reminder to Muslims to perhaps be a little more consistent. Your answer on the idea of multiplicity in singularity will be a good test case.
LikeLike
Paulus : “Rather than just making statements, please explain how Muhammad can be the first of many before and after, but the same logic cannot be applied to God?”
I honestly don’t have any clue what you are asking for.
Adam (as) was the first ever Muslim
Muhammad (as) was the first Muslim among his people.
It’s pretty simple to me. I don’t see the concern with before/after.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Paulus refuses to understand. His hate blinds him.
LikeLike
I know that mention of the word Christian in the NT. I’m asking if theologically in a broader sense can Adam(as)/Moses(as)/Abraham(as)/Jesus(as) be called a Christian, like we can say them as Muslims.
LikeLiked by 1 person
so Paul, what happened when you turned away from Islam for a few days?
What was your nature/heart when you turned away from Islam for a few days?
Did your nature have to be changed again?
Which one was the true regeneration? (first time, or second time becoming a Muslim)
Since in Islam, one can turn away and turn back many times, it seems that it is not a regeneration or change of nature or a real inward change of a new heart.
LikeLike
Ken,
The heart is not stagnate, there is constant movement, it can change often. That is why we must continually turn to Allah in repentance, that he may assist us in turning our hearts back to him. The one who is steadfast and firm on his religion has achieved a level of Ihsan or perfection in his deen, which allows his heart to remain purely devoted to Allah in Islam… it is a process, that comes through practice, effort, striving, patience and prayer. Unlike the easy lazy-man’s instant Salvation in Christianity.
What about the many Christians who utter a sinners prayer, supposedly having a change of heart and nature, and then go straight back to their sinful ways, all the while thinking that they are better than others because they are “Bathed in the Blood” and “Saved.” It seems that it is not a regeneration or change of nature or a real inward change of a new heart, but really nothing but a momentary feeling, that fades away easily thereafter, as the Sinner returns to his sin while calling himself Saved by the Blood!! (and waving his hands in the air).
LikeLiked by 1 person
Tough questions Ken! No doubt, they will not be answered.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Since your human heart can change back to unbelief, then that means man is more powerful than Allah, which means that is was not a true regeneration.
In Christian regeneration, the heart is changed and the stony old hard heart is taken out, and crucified and replaced with a new heart and God causes the new creature to walk in obedience. Ezekiel 36:26-27; 2 Cor. 5:17; 1 John 3:6; 3:9
That does not mean a person cannot claim or think they are regenerated, but not in reality. There are many who think they are born again and claim that they are Christians, but are not really on the inside.
2 Peter 2:22
“What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”
Matthew 7:23
Jesus said, ” I never knew you, depart from Me . . . “
LikeLike
So if a Muslim heart turns back on belief, it means the man is more powerful than Allah.
But if a Christian heart turns back on belief, it means he was never really a true Scotsman, er, I mean Christian.
Double standards.
LikeLiked by 4 people
It is not a double standard, since you have no regeneration or miracle in changing your nature. You have to clean yourself up by your own efforts and everything is Ensha’Allah, “If God wills”. you never know if you are accepted or not, or have true total peace and forgiveness in order to be assured that you will go to heaven.
But the Scriptures indicate that if a person turns away from Christ, they were never a true Christian – 2 Peter 2:22 is clear – they are like dogs and pigs who return to the mud and vomit, because their nature was not changed.
Jesus Himself said,
“I never knew you” – Matthew 7:23
notice the past tense.
LikeLike
Ken, you don’t comment for months then we get insults and rubbish.
LikeLiked by 2 people
I am using arguments and defending Christianity and the Bible.
where did I insult?
You think it is rubbish, but that is your evaluation of when we defend the Bible and Christianity. It is your subjective opinion when you have no reasonable rebuttal to the argument.
I was busy and could not comment; I cannot help if I have other work and life.
I just happened to have some time now.
LikeLike
Also, it does not mean that Christians are perfect or sinless; but rather they always hate their own sin and increase in growing spiritually and repentance and confession of sins and seeking reconciliation with others when they do wrong.
1 John 1:8-9 “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” But if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. ”
Ephesians 4:20-24
“Put off the old man, which is being corrupted in the lusts of deceit . . .
Romans 7:14-25 – “the wrong that I do I hate . . . ” I agree with the law of God in the inner man”; ” I find a different law in my members waging war against the law of the spirit of life”
Proverbs 8:13 – “the fear of the Lord is to hate evil . . . ”
2 Cor. 7:1 – “therefore, having these promises, let us cleanse ourselves of all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.”
LikeLike
‘it does not mean that Christians are perfect or sinless; but rather they always hate their own sin and increase in growing spiritually and repentance and confession of sins and seeking reconciliation with others when they do wrong.’
In light of this do you think Sam Shamoun is a Christian?
LikeLike
Sam is a mystery to me as to why he acts the way he does; especially the way he turned against Dr. White is especially weird and without explanation and even why I have tried to exhort him, (and many others have), he turns it all around and attacks them.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Ken,
“does not mean that Christians are perfect or sinless; but rather they always hate their own sin and increase in growing spiritually and repentance and confession of sins and seeking reconciliation with others when they do wrong.”
So you agree with Islam which teaches virtually the same thing.
LikeLiked by 1 person
typo, “when”, not “why”
even when I have tried to exhort him, (and many others have), he turns it all around and attacks them.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Amazing – still no one can give a verse from the Qur’an that says your nature gets changed in regeneration or the heart or spirit gets changed by faith in God.
The emphasis in Islam is not on the heart or inside or thoughts; the emphasis is for the Muslim to obey external laws and rituals – prayers, rituals, pilgrimage, obeying the authorities, obeying the rules of society, clothes, washings (wudu, vuzu وضو ) obeying one’s parents; don’t steal, murder, or commit adultery, ladies cover up, etc.
“do this and don’t do that; and maybe, Insha’Allah, God will accept you on the last day.”
Tim Winter (Abdal Hakim Murad) even admitted that that was why Sufism started – they were frustrated with dry ritual and duty-oriented external law as the emphasis in Islam.
But in secret and in the heart of mankind, there lurks evil thoughts and evil motives.
Mark 7:20-23
20 And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. 21 For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”
Matthew 5:21-26 – hatred and sinful anger in the heart is the root of murder, and hatred and sinful anger are enough to make one guilty to go to hell.
Matthew 5:27-30 – sexual lust and fantasies in the heart are the root of adultery and enough to make one guilty enough to go to hell.
Genesis 6:5
“The Lord saw that the wickedness upon the earth was great, that every intention of the imaginations of the heart of man was only evil continuously.”
Jeremiah 17:9
“the heart is deceitful and desperately sick.”
LikeLike
what an ignorant rant.
LikeLiked by 1 person
How so?
Can you show what the emphasis in Islam is?
It is on external law and societal behavior and sometimes speaks about the heart and internal thoughts and motives, but you yourself even wrote several blog articles, quoting Dr. Jonathan Brown, a scholar on Islam, that Islam and the Caliphs did not care what Muslims did in private, etc. and if anyone confesses their sin to another, they can then punish them or kill them, and you quoted a Hadith about “veiling one’s sins”.
The Bible’s emphasis is on the roots of sin – evil thoughts and evil motives, lusts, pride, greed, jealousy, anger, un-forgiveness, spite, rancor, selfishness, etc.
But the Qur’an and Islam’s emphasis is on external behavior and rituals.
LikeLike
“you don’t comment for months then we get insults and rubbish”- Bilal
“what an ignorant rant.”- Bilal
Perfect summation of Islam’s *consistency*
LikeLiked by 1 person
still no verse from the Qur’an on regeneration or a changed nature or changed heart.
nothing. . .
crickets . . .
LikeLike
Ken Temple,
There are closer verses to what you are asking for.
Qur’an 13:28 : “Those who believe, and whose hearts find satisfaction in the remembrance of Allah: for without doubt in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find satisfaction.
Regarding regeneration, Islam wipes away all sins of your past.
Qur’an 39:53 : “O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah. Indeed, Allah forgives all sins.”
‘Amr ibn al-‘Aas was a polytheist who came to Islam.
He said: “When Allaah put the love of Islam into my heart, I came to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) to pledge my allegiance to him. He stretched out his hand towards me, but I said, ‘I will not pledge allegiance to you, O Messenger of Allaah, until you forgive me my previous sins.’ The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to me, ‘O ‘Amr, do you not know that Islam wipes out whatever sins came before it.’” (Narrated by Imaam Ahmad, 17159).
The below verse refutes your proposition that Islam is all about external rituals and nothing to do with the purification of the heart.
Qur’an 26:88-89 “The Day when there will not benefit [anyone] wealth or children. But only one who comes to Allah with a sound heart”
LikeLiked by 2 people
Ken believes a lie about Islam – he feels he must lie as his religious world view requires it.
LikeLiked by 1 person
It’s a shame really that instead of arguing doctrinal issues and discuss the merits/faults of the actual differences in our faiths, we are having to explain the purposeful misrepresentations in basic matters of our faith.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Yes indeed. But which misrepresents are key to their apologetics.
LikeLike
If they dealt with Islam on equal footing they fear that it would expose Christian theology as being inferior to Islamic Theology. Therefore, they are forced to drag Islam down into the same pool of mud where they feel Christianity is sunk in order to try and tilt the playing field in their own favor.
They never take answers about Islam at face value, instead trying to twist our answers by reading something into them that they think will contradict Islam and confirm Christianity somehow in their own minds. Those like Paulus, achillies53, and Sam never see, acknowledge, or admit any redeeming quality or virtue in Islam, because they dogmatically refuse to give Islam one inch of ground to stand upon in order to deny Islam any validity. In addition, they constantly misrepresent Islamic belief and theology in a sad attempt to deny and distract attention away from the beautiful truths that are contained within Islam. It seems that such underhanded tactics are the best apologetics that Christians can muster against Islam.
Thankfully Islam doesn’t require the approval of critics to maintain its position as a valid spiritual path in the Abrahamic tradition.
If Christians would just reject the negative, confrontational, apologetics of hate, antagonism, and misrepresentation, we could get on with a more productive and respectful dialogue between the two sister faiths which would yield more positive results, and help to foster peace, love, and understanding between peoples -something the world needs much more of right now.
I think Muslims would be open to such a dialogue, but it must be based on mutual respect, and a desire to deal with each religion within its own context. Many Muslims have be willing to do this for a long time…….when will Christians be confident and loving enough to do the same?
In a highly secularized world, the children of Abraham – Jews Christians, Muslims, – should be the closest of allies, not bitter enemies.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Very well said!!
LikeLike
Here it is Ken:
https://bloggingtheology.net/2017/04/08/32378/
LikeLike
that is getting closer to the concept. But the word “new” is not in the Arabic.
مَنْ عَمِلَ صَالِحًا مِّن ذَكَرٍ أَوْ أُنثَىٰ وَهُوَ مُؤْمِنٌ فَلَنُحْيِيَنَّهُ حَيَاةً طَيِّبَةً ۖ وَلَنَجْزِيَنَّهُمْ أَجْرَهُم بِأَحْسَنِ مَا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ
It says “he will be given life” ; “a good life” as a reward for going good works first. seems like he is talking about heaven or paradise. In regeneration in the NT, the regeneration/new life/ born again, comes first, then the ability to do good works is second. Islam has it backwards. You have to earn your life in heaven.
LikeLike
Ken Temple
You said;
Ken Temple
April 6, 2017 • 9:43 pm
It is not a double standard, since you have no regeneration or miracle in changing your nature. You have to clean yourself up by your own efforts and everything is Ensha’Allah, “If God wills”. you never know if you are accepted or not, or have true total peace and forgiveness in order to be assured that you will go to heaven.
But the Scriptures indicate that if a person turns away from Christ, they were never a true Christian – 2 Peter 2:22 is clear – they are like dogs and pigs who return to the mud and vomit, because their nature was not changed.
Jesus Himself said,
“I never knew you” – Matthew 7:23
notice the past tense
I say;
What is your proof? The proof that you are regenerated? By your standards eh? An idol worshiper also has his standards of regeneration. If you want your regeneration to be superior to others regeneration, then it is bully and intimidation from your side.
It is just like an idol worshiper or voodoo dancer who gets his regeneration through his holy spirit to claim to the whole world that his regeneration and holy spirit in him from the experience he is having in the voodoo shrine is superior to others. This type of thinking brings conflicts in the world.
In Sha Allah(If God Wills).
1. Muslims are not arrogant and will always leave the final judgement to Allah and will always asks God’s will as Jesus said;
——
New Living Translation
He went on a little farther and bowed with his face to the ground, praying, “My Father! If it is possible, let this cup of suffering be taken away from me. Yet I want your will to be done, not mine.”
——
Jesus is praying and asking for God’s will and Muslims are following their prophet Jesus Alaihi Salaam to also pray for God’s will bur some arrogant Christians like Ken Temple think they have authority over things and not praying for God’s will but their(Christians like Ken Temple’s will) thinking they have ticked to heaven. If you ask them the proof for the ticket to heaven they claim they have they cannot provide except to quote Bible which any religion in the world can have a claim in their scripture.
Ken, You do not have a proof of heaven, so stop claiming you have. You believe like any other religion adherents believe but none has the ticket of heaven in his hands, hence Muslims humble like Jesus and say In Sha Allah. Allah holds the keys to heaven not Christians or the Holy Spirit.
Thanks.
LikeLiked by 1 person
poitierfrance
April 6, 2017 • 10:38 pm
@Ibn Issam
I think Ken raised a good question. I’ve been with deeply commited muslims and christians. Christians in my experience had more dramatic changes in their spiritual life. They were more passionate towards God, full of love and devotion. I have met really incredible christians that have often left me amazed by their complete change of life
I say;
That’s your observation and it is subjective. One man’s meat is another man’s poison. We want proof here not someones observation. Show us a proof Ken Temple has a ticket of heaven in his hands or has come back from heaven with pictures of God and angels swimming in a pool in heaven.
My observation of spirituality, devotion and regeneration from people is that, the voodoo idol worshipers have good experience in their spirituality and deeply committed and had more dramatic changes than both Christians and Muslims.
Proof:
Full of holy spirit in voodoo religion. The holy spirit is everywhere. No one can claim the holy spirit to be his own.
It sounds like charismatic…………………….
Thanks.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Ibn Issam
April 6, 2017 • 9:19 pm
So if a Muslim heart turns back on belief, it means the man is more powerful than Allah.
But if a Christian heart turns back on belief, it means he was never really a true Scotsman, er, I mean Christian.
Double standards
I say;
Yep. Double standards indeed. That is the problem of this world. Some Christians will claim they are holding the key to heaven in their hand and when you ask them the proof, they will not show you the key except to refer you to their scripture which you do not believe and they will not believe your scripture when you show them you are also guaranteed heaven.
The protestant evangelicals like Ken Temple will even exclude other Christians like the Catholics etc. from the key of heaven they claim to be holding in their hands.
Ken Temple
April 6, 2017 • 10:38 pm
How so?
Can you show what the emphasis in Islam is?
It is on external law and societal behavior and sometimes speaks about the heart and internal thoughts and motives, but you yourself even wrote several blog articles, quoting Dr. Jonathan Brown, a scholar on Islam, that Islam and the Caliphs did not care what Muslims did in private, etc. and if anyone confesses their sin to another, they can then punish them or kill them, and you quoted a Hadith about “veiling one’s sins”.
The Bible’s emphasis is on the roots of sin – evil thoughts and evil motives, lusts, pride, greed, jealousy, anger, un-forgiveness, spite, rancor, selfishness, etc
I say;
Then Jesus sinned when he was angry and call a woman dog. Do you mean to tell me Christians don’t get angry? If they do, then they are not Christians according to you saying this;
———
But the Scriptures indicate that if a person turns away from Christ, they were never a true Christian – 2 Peter 2:22 is clear – they are like dogs and pigs who return to the mud and vomit, because their nature was not changed.
Jesus Himself said,
“I never knew you” – Matthew 7:23
notice the past tense.
———
Ibn Issam
April 6, 2017 • 9:28 pm
Ken,
“does not mean that Christians are perfect or sinless; but rather they always hate their own sin and increase in growing spiritually and repentance and confession of sins and seeking reconciliation with others when they do wrong.”
So you agree with Islam which teaches virtually the same thing.
I say;
That is the cheating going on by Christians. They always want to eat their cake and still have it. He believes Jesus died for his sins but he still sins. What is the use of Jesus dying to cleanse your(Ken) sins when you still sin?
You have made the death of Jesus on the cross useless by continuing to sin and repent just like Muslims. If Jesus had already paid for your sins Ken, why repent. Repentance means;
———–
re·pent·ance
rəˈpentəns/
noun
the action of repenting; sincere regret or remorse.
“each person who turns to God in genuine repentance and faith will be saved”
synonyms: remorse, contrition, contriteness, penitence, regret, ruefulness, remorsefulness, shame, guilt
“her lack of repentance angered them”
————–
Didn’t Jesus paid for all of these? Why repent. Because Ken you realize the blood of Jesus didn’t and cannot cleanse your sins, hence the repentance by the Christians just like Muslims and Jews will repent when they sin.
Muslims and Jews did not have anyone died for their sins and so their repentance is understandable but for Christians to claim their sins was paid by Jesus Christ and still ask for forgiveness and blame others for praying for God’s will is the DOUBBLE, TRIPLE, QUADRUPLE etc. standards I have ever seen from some Christians like Ken Temple. They do not see their wrong doings but they see it for others.
Ken. Think very well.
Thanks.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Intellect,
Good points.Thanks for your thoughts!
LikeLiked by 1 person
Ken Temple said “that Islam and the Caliphs did not care what Muslims did in private, etc.”
Caliphs don’t care as that is not the job of the government to check what people do in private. Islam does care about the actions of Muslims in public and private and it’s a travesty you claim otherwise.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Ken should know better. But he is invincibly ignorant about basic Islam. His hatred for Islam blinds him to the truth.
LikeLiked by 1 person
His hatred for humanity blinds him to the truth.
“But in secret and in the heart of mankind, there lurks evil thoughts and evil motives.”
He probably speaks about himself.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Ken Temple
Said;
But the Scriptures indicate that if a person turns away from Christ, they were never a true Christian – 2 Peter 2:22 is clear – they are like dogs and pigs who return to the mud and vomit, because their nature was not changed.
Jesus Himself said,
“I never knew you” – Matthew 7:23
notice the past tense.
I say;
Jesus’s disciples turns away from Christ i.e. they forsook him. So, according to Ken Temple all the disciples of Jesus were never true Christians.
According to Ken Temple, Peter was never a true Christian. He turned away from Christ according to the Bible. John was never a true Christian and all disciples like Mark, Mathew, etc. were never true Christians. They turned away from Christ.
If all along they were not true Christians or followers of Jesus Christ because they turned away from him according to Ken, then they cannot be trusted.
Mark 14:50
New International Version
Then everyone deserted him and fled.
New Living Translation
Then all his disciples deserted him and ran away.
English Standard Version
And they all left him and fled.
Berean Study Bible
Then all His disciples deserted Him and fled.
Berean Literal Bible
And all having left Him, fled.
New American Standard Bible
And they all left Him and fled.
King James Bible
And they all forsook him, and fled.
————————————————-
Reference:
for·sake
fərˈsāk/Submit
verb literary
past tense: forsook
abandon (someone or something).
“he would never forsake Tara”
synonyms: abandon, desert, leave, leave high and dry, turn one’s back on, cast aside, break (up) with; jilt, strand, leave stranded, leave in the lurch, throw over; informal walk out on, run out on, dump, ditch, can
“he forsook his wife”
renounce or give up (something valued or pleasant).
“I won’t forsake my vegetarian principles”
synonyms: renounce, abandon, relinquish, dispense with, disclaim, disown, disavow, discard, wash one’s hands of; give up, drop, jettison, do away with, ax; informalditch, scrap, scrub, junk; formal forswear
“I won’t forsake my vegetarian principles”
https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1AVFC_enCA738CA739&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=what+is+forsook
Nabeel Quraish, the mentor of Ken Temple and the Ravi Zacharias ministry kept telling lies about Islam and their qualifications and Ken supports them. I think it is turning away from Christ because Christ abhors telling lies.
Nabeel always uses his “former Muslim” to convince Christians that he knew Islam because of that but it appears he only learnt his Islam from the Islamophobe David Wood.
What Arabic qualification does David Wood has for a Muslim to learn Islam from him? such as Nabeel did?
Nabeel, a former Christians does not guaranteed knowledge of Christianity and it applies to former Muslims like you.
Thanks.
LikeLike
Intellect,
Good point about the disciples turning away from Christ.
According to Ken’s own belief it means that the Disciples were more powerful than God, which means that they did not have a true regeneration, nor a true change of heart, and that there was no inner change of the nature for the Disciples. They were not true believers in Christ.
Ken’s understanding is therefore too faulty for any thinking person to accept, as it is clear that the Disciples were believers in the message of Jesus.
According to Islam (as well as the teachings of Jesus himself), the Disciples would have repented for their error, and God forgives. – Allah has made it easy for us all through Islam- Alhamdullah!!!
LikeLike
Paul Williams mentioned Rumi. Jalal -e-din Balkhi or “Rumi”
Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Balkhi Rūmī
Persian: جلالالدین محمد بلخی رومی
He was born in Balkh, (today in North western Afghanistan, near Mazar Sharif.) He fled the Mongol invasions and settled in Iconium in the Byzantine Empire at the time, later conquered by the Ottoman Turks (now Konya, Turkey). At the time, the Muslims called that area “Rum” (Rome), so his nickname became “Rumi” (the one who lives in the “Roman”(eastern, Byzantine) Empire.
Also known as “Mowlana” مولانا (“our master”) – like in Star Wars – “Master Jedi”
He was a Sufi and I have had many orthodox Sunni Muslims say he was not orthodox in doctrine or practice.
Rumi was Persian; I can read his poetry in the original Farsi / Persian, but even that is very deep and has lots of metaphors, symbols and poetic style that is difficult.
Have you read much of Rumi in English ??
Finally “Gabriel Jesus” at least gave a few verses from the Qur’an, trying to say that Islam has a doctrine of regeneration.
Forgiveness of sins is not regeneration.
Those verses still do not speak of a regeneration or change of nature or change of heart.
I will comment more on those in the next com box.
I did not say that Islam was “only ritual”, but rather I meant, “mostly” or I wrote “the emphasis in Islam is on ritual and external laws”
There is a difference between “emphasis” vs. “only” or “mostly” vs. “all”
LikeLike
Ken,
The problem, is that you are taking a Christian definition of the word “Regeneration” according to the Bible and forcing that understanding onto Islam and Qur’an. It doesn’t work that way. Islam has its own context, language, definitions, terminology, understandings, and theology.
One absolutely CAN experience a personal spiritual transformation, brought about by the Allah, and Qur’an, that brings the individual from being spiritually dead to become a spiritually alive human being.
Even if forgiveness of sins may not be regeneration, it can still ultimately result in regeneration.
LikeLike
Thanks Ken for that introduction to this very obscure figure that hardly anybody knows about!
I also have to thank you for reminding us about your profound knowledge of Farsi which is incredibly relevant to the discussion of spiritual regeneration!
LikeLiked by 3 people
Leave Ken alone – he thinks that by going on and on about Farsi no matter what the subject he can get Muslims to connect with him and take him seriously.
LikeLiked by 1 person
خواهش می کنم! خیلی ممنون هم از شما. شعر رومی خیلی
جالب است.
(You are welcome! Thanks for what you said also. The poetry of Rumi is very interesting.)
این نمونه از شعر رومی مولانا
Here is a sample of Rumi Mowlana’s poetry:
بشنو این نی چون شکایت میکند
از جداییها حکایت میکند
کز نیستان تا مرا ببریدهاند
در نفیرم مرد و زن نالیدهاند
سینه خواهم شرحه شرحه از فراق
تا بگویم شرح درد اشتیاق
هر کسی کو دور ماند از اصل خویش
باز جوید روزگار وصل خویش
من به هر جمعیتی نالان شدم
جفت بدحالان و خوشحالان شدم
هرکسی از ظن خود شد یار من
از درون من نجست اسرار من
سر من از نالهٔ من دور نیست
لیک چشم و گوش را آن نور نیست
تن ز جان و جان ز تن مستور نیست
لیک کس را دید جان دستور نیست
Basically, he is saying, just as the bamboo reeds complain and call out when the wind blows through them, so we who long for connection to our creator call out for connection to the Creator.
Similar to Romans 8:18-25 – “the whole creation groans awaiting for the time when the sufferings of this life are done”
LikeLike
It never seems to work though 😦
LikeLiked by 2 people
:((
LikeLike
Most Muslims are very hospitable and all have very wonderful food. There is much I admire – the architecture is very beautiful of many Masjeds.
LikeLike
Ken wants to impress us with his limited knowledge of Farsi, and with his history lesson on Mevlana Rumi, as if we never heard about him. At least he is able to say a nice word about Islam once in a while, which is more than I can say about some other critics.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Many aspects of Sufi poetry are very good ideas and thoughts; and many of the Sufis, especially Persians, quoted from the canonical gospels, but kept things kind of unclear, for they were afraid of the authorities. One of them, Mansour Al Hallaj “An-Al- Haqq” (“I am the truth”) (Also a Persian), got in trouble and they executed him, because they thought he was claiming to be God. Some see that as a claim of mystical union with God, and not a claim of being God Himself. Many aspects of Sufism don’t jive with orthodox Sunni Islam.
LikeLike
Ken,
Did you get that translation from the Coleman Barks edition? LOL!!
LikeLiked by 1 person
No.
LikeLike
Ken,
Glad you admire Sufism, but it doesn’t really surprise me.
Many critics of orthodox Islam, like to hold up Sufism as an “acceptable” example of a neutered Islam, which they seem to think has similarities with Christianity. However, real Muslim Sufi’s are not what westerners might imagine them to be, they adhere to a madhab, follow Qur’an, hadeeth, and shariah and.pray 5 times a day, fast, and fulfill requirements of Islam.
They are not just sitting around writing poetry and drinking wine, like the foolish profiteering Coleman Barks and his poor “translations” would have you believe.
LikeLike
Ken,
I really do appreciate that you admire some things about Muslim people, culture, literature, food and architecture. Thanks so much for that. In return I also admire many things about Christianity and West, indeed there many things that I love about those things. We get caught up in our differences and we forget to share our similarities and celebrate each others virtues.
But do you realize that by constantly trying to “evangelize” to Muslims through missionary work, you are actively working to destroy the very things that you admire?
In Islam, we believe that God made us different in order to get to know one another (49:13), not to convert each other, or just to “win souls for Christ.” It is beyond that.
LikeLike
Finally “Gabriel Jesus” gave some verses from the Qur’an.
There are closer verses to what you are asking for.
Qur’an 13:28 : “Those who believe, and whose hearts find satisfaction in the remembrance of Allah: for without doubt in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find satisfaction.
That is good; but assurance of peace and satisfaction is not the same as regeneration/change of nature; but good try. That may be the closest concept, but not quite the same.
Regarding regeneration, Islam wipes away all sins of your past.
Qur’an 39:53 : “O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah. Indeed, Allah forgives all sins.”
Forgiveness of past sins is not regeneration or a change of nature.
‘Amr ibn al-‘Aas was a polytheist who came to Islam.
He said: “When Allaah put the love of Islam into my heart, I came to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) to pledge my allegiance to him. He stretched out his hand towards me, but I said, ‘I will not pledge allegiance to you, O Messenger of Allaah, until you forgive me my previous sins.’ The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to me, ‘O ‘Amr, do you not know that Islam wipes out whatever sins came before it.’” (Narrated by Imaam Ahmad, 17159).
This is closer to the concept, since it speaks of a change of heart to love Islam, but even then, people can change their minds and thinking about something, but it does not come close to the concept of God changing one’s nature (taking out the heart of stone and giving someone a new heart and new spirit – as in Ezekiel 36:26-27
and 2 Corinthians 5:17 – “If any man is in Christ, he is a new creature, the old has passed away; the new has begun.”
Ezekiel 36:26-27
26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
The below verse refutes your proposition that Islam is all about external rituals and nothing to do with the purification of the heart.
Qur’an 26:88-89 “The Day when there will not benefit [anyone] wealth or children. But only one who comes to Allah with a sound heart”
That’s a good verse; one of the better verses in all the Qur’an; and a good principle; but it doesn’t say God gives them a new heart or new nature, it is just saying it up to you to have a sound, healthy, pure heart, (clean and sincere thoughts ?) instead of trusting in wealth or children. That maybe the closest along with the verse on assurance.
LikeLike
Ken,
Once again you are taking a Christian definition of the word “Regeneration” according to the Bible and forcing that understanding onto Islam and Qur’an. It doesn’t work that way. Islam has its own context, language, definitions, terminology, understandings, and theology.
Has it ever occurred to you that maybe the Biblical understanding of “Regeneration” is false?
Your altered, corrupted, fallible, unverifiable Bible written by unknown pseudepigraphal authors cannot possibly stand as the universal standard of truth in the world. Why should anyone accept your narrow biblical definition of regeneration?
Try to have some humility Ken.
LikeLiked by 1 person
“Try to have some humility Ken”
Amen!
LikeLike
Some textual variants does not mean altered, corrupted, fallible, etc.
The NT and the OT is God’s infallible and inerrant word; and even the Qur’an teaches that, and it never says the text has been changed. It says that some unlettered people change the meanings with their tongues. (oral misinterpretations) – this is not a change of the text.
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2016/03/21/the-quran-never-says-the-text-of-the-bible-was-corrupted/
LikeLike
Some more teaching from the quran Ken
https://bloggingtheology.net/2017/04/08/32378/
LikeLike
the stuff “Intellect” put up about Voodoo is not a valid argument, since that is a false religion and Satanic and the places in Africa and Haiti where they mixed Voodoo in with Roman Catholicism is not Christianity at all. When there is a mixture of religions, it is called “Syncretism”.
LikeLike
His point is that spirituality, devotion change of heart and nature through regeneration are not exclusive to Christianity.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Mark 14:50 – the disciples fled temporarily to avoid arrest, yes.
But keep reading . . .
Mark 14:54
“and Peter, following Him at a distance . . . ”
And John was nearby at the cross – John 19:26-27
And it makes sense that the other disciples were watching from a distance (not close by like John and the women), because of all the details of all four gospels of the crucifixion, and that those same disciples are called “eyewitnesses” of these events.
LikeLike
Ken,
King James Bible
And they all forsook him, and fled.
According to your own belief it means that the Disciples were more powerful than God, which means that they did not have a true regeneration, nor a true change of heart, and that there was no inner change of the nature for the Disciples. They were not true believers in Christ.
Too bad these “eyewitnesses” didn’t write anything down and preserve it. Instead we had to wait until the 2nd century to see the first extant gospel manuscript, written by an unknown author.
LikeLike
Ken Temple
You said;
Mark 14:50 – the disciples fled temporarily to avoid arrest, yes.
But keep reading . . .
I say;
If Jesus is God, why would they run away from him? Does people run away from God? If they knew Jesus is God like the Christians like you want us to believe, when on earth will they run away from God?
If I know I am standing with God, I will not run away from Him but will be pleading with Him to forgive me and please put me into heaven and make my judgement smooth and I will never ever run away from God.
The disciples running away from Christ proved he is not God at all and it means they TURNED AWAY from Christ and they were never followers of Jesus according to you.
Ken, if you claim their TURNING AWAY from Christ is prompted by something, then the Christians turning away from Christ today is also prompted by something.
Is always something done triggers something, so the the disciples of Jesus turned away from him and they were never his followers according to you.
Do people run away from God? NO, NO, NO, NO.
We all want to be closer to God but the disciples run away from someone(Jesus Christ) and so, Jesus Christ is not God.
Thanks.
LikeLike
Ken,
Why can’t you simply admit what Julian Bond honestly says is very clear to him in the above twitter tweet. “Muslims also experience the regeneration/salvation that Christians speak about.” It costs you nothing to admit the same, and it goes such along way to building bridges, and mutual respect between Christian and Muslim communities.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Spiritual experiences, subjective experience of peace, assurance, forgiveness, etc. ok; but it is not “regeneration” ( the changing of the sinful nature to a new good nature that will grow in holiness and conformity to the image of Christ).
LikeLike
“the changing of the sinful nature to a new good nature that will grow in holiness and conformity to the image of Christ”
Ken, you’re not in your church! You will be examined in each lie you write here.
Many christians are living a sinful life. You cannot deny that. In fact, christians are more likely to be sinful since they are freed from the law of God. Do whatever you want since you will not lose your salvation once you accpet Jesus as your savior . This is what christians keep teach.
LikeLike
Ken’s comment which projects Biblical definitions onto Islam.proves that he cannot think outside the Christian “box” even for a moment.
LikeLiked by 1 person
a true fundamentalist
LikeLike
“In fact, christians are more likely to be sinful since they are freed from the law of God”
False.
E.g in Egypt, 99% of women have been sexually assaulted. Even though they wear hijab.
So the lie that hijab creates modesty is false, and the lie that Christian are more likely to be sinful is false
LikeLike
هیچ کس نمی تواند کلام خدا را تبدیل بدهد
(Farsi for “No one is able to change the word of God”)
Arabic:
وَلَا مُبَدِّلَ لِكَلِمَاتِ اللَّهِ
“And there is no changing the words of Allah” (This phrase is from Surah 6:34, and see 6:115 (116); 10:64 (65); 18:27 below)
We have this same word and various forms of “change” from Arabic (مبدل and تبدیل )in Farsi.
We exhort and encourage Muslims to follow Surah 10:94 and ask the people who have been reading the previous Scriptures that came before Muhammad. On another blog, some time ago, I wrote an article on entitled The Qur’an Proves the Bible is True
Surah 10:94 says that Muhammad should go and ask the people who have been reading the Book الکتاب ( Al-Kitab) before him. The Book, or Revelation from Allah “before him” is the Bible, both the OT and the NT. Surah 2:136 says that all of the Revelation given before Muhammad was revelation from God; the listing of prophets from Abraham to Moses to Jesus shows that this includes the OT and the NT; “we make no distinction” between the previous revelations and the current ones. Muhammad thought there was no contradiction. He misunderstood what the OT was and he misunderstood what the NT was. I did not write that the word “Injeel” was in the Arabic text of Surah 10:94, but it surely includes it in the meaning and intention because it came before and it clearly uses the word “before” قبل (again, we have this word in Farsi and I can see it. “From before you” = من قبلک
من = (min) = from; قبل = (qabl) = before; ک on the end = “you”
Surah 2:136:
قُولُوا آمَنَّا بِاللَّهِ وَمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْنَا وَمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإِسْحَاقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ
وَالْأَسْبَاطِ وَمَا أُوتِيَ مُوسَىٰ وَعِيسَىٰ وَمَا أُوتِيَ النَّبِيُّونَ مِن رَّبِّهِمْ لَا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّنْهُمْ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ
Say ye: “We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma´il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam).”
It is obvious that the Qur’an thought the previous revelations were not corrupt and at least 4 other times it says, “No one can change the words of Allah”. (Surah 6:34; 6:115 (116); 10:64 (65); 18:27)
Surah 6:34:
وَلَقَدْ كُذِّبَتْ رُسُلٌ مِّن قَبْلِكَ فَصَبَرُوا عَلَىٰ مَا كُذِّبُوا وَأُوذُوا حَتَّىٰ أَتَاهُمْ نَصْرُنَا ۚ وَلَا مُبَدِّلَ لِكَلِمَاتِ اللَّهِ ۚ وَلَقَدْ جَاءَكَ مِن نَّبَإِ الْمُرْسَلِينَ
Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers.”
The Arabic phrase here is key and a theological truth that in principle Christians and Muslims can agree with: “there is no changing the words of Allah”
وَلَا مُبَدِّلَ لِكَلِمَاتِ اللَّهِ
Surah 6:115 (or 116 depending on numbering of different Qur’an translations.)
وَتَمَّتْ كَلِمَتُ رَبِّكَ صِدْقًا وَعَدْلًا ۚ لَّا مُبَدِّلَ لِكَلِمَاتِهِ ۚ وَهُوَ السَّمِيعُ الْعَلِيمُ
“ The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all.”
لَّا مُبَدِّلَ لِكَلِمَاتِهِ
“No changing His words”
Surah 10:64 (or 65)
لَهُمُ الْبُشْرَىٰ فِي الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا وَفِي الْآخِرَةِ ۚ لَا تَبْدِيلَ لِكَلِمَاتِ اللَّهِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ هُوَ الْفَوْزُ الْعَظِيمُ
For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present and in the Hereafter; no change can there be in the words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme felicity.
لَا تَبْدِيلَ لِكَلِمَاتِ اللَّهِ
“No change can there be in the words of Allah”
Surah 18:27:
وَاتْلُ مَا أُوحِيَ إِلَيْكَ مِن كِتَابِ رَبِّكَ ۖ لَا مُبَدِّلَ لِكَلِمَاتِهِ وَلَن تَجِدَ مِن دُونِهِ مُلْتَحَدًا
And recite (and teach) what has been revealed to thee of the Book of thy Lord: none can change His Words, and none wilt thou find as a refuge other than Him.
لَا مُبَدِّلَ لِكَلِمَاتِهِ
“No changing of His words”
Also, Surah 29:46 also says “Dispute not with the people of the book” . . . “But say, we believe in the Revelation which has come down to us and in that which has come down to you.”
وَلَا تُجَادِلُوا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ إِلَّا بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ إِلَّا الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا مِنْهُمْ ۖ وَقُولُوا آمَنَّا بِالَّذِي أُنزِلَ إِلَيْنَا وَأُنزِلَ إِلَيْكُمْ وَإِلَٰهُنَا وَإِلَٰهُكُمْ وَاحِدٌ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ
“And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, “We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam).”
The people of the book are the Christians and the Jews. Surah 9:29-30 says this also. Many other verses in the Qur’an teach this.
I sincerely believe that the author (s) /compilers of the Qur’an and Muhammad misunderstood Christianity and that they really thought the previous revelations were not corrupted. I am bringing forth evidence from the Qur’an itself that shows that at the time of Muhammad, he did not believe the Bible (OT and New Testament/ Injeel) was corrupt.
And Surah 29:46 exhorts Muslims to do better in the way they make arguments and stop calling people “liars” and “Islamophobes” when they don’t like Christians pointing out the problems with the Qur’an and Islamic doctrines and some Muslims bad behaviors. Take responsibility for your own sins. Repentance and faith in Jesus Christ, Jesus Al Masih is the only way to have eternal life. (Mark 1:15; 10:45; Romans 3:19-26; Romans 9:9-10; John 14:6; Acts 4:12; 1 John 5:13) All of those verses written from the true Injeel were written around 50 AD to 68 AD. John’s writings could have been written in the 60s before 70 AD, or, as most scholars believe, from around 80 AD – 96 AD. Since we have all the evidence for that and how old they are, and the Qur’an comes 600 years later and says “no one can change the word of God”, then the Qur’an affirms the Bible and Muslims must turn to it; and reject the parts of the Qur’an that disagree with the Bible. It is not an inspired book, but it’s authors did think the Bible was inspired and not corrupted.
Obviously, Muhammad thought the revelations had the same basic message; and later, when Muslims began to study more of the details of the OT and the NT, as they fanned out in the conquering Jihads/Qatals/unjust, aggressive Wars, and they conquered more Byzantine areas and Christian areas in Mesopotamia (today’s Iraq), they realized that there are differences in the teachings, so it is then that they had to come up with the idea of “Tahreef” تحریف , that the text of the previous revelations have been corrupted. But the Qur’an itself never says this.
LikeLike
Still no idea why you keep writing things in Farsi. You need to learn Arabic if you want to talk about Quran.
Because you’re insisting to write this ignorance from David, I’m forced to expose your ignorance.
It’s obvious that Quran talks about (Tahreef) in your scripture.
كلمة الله here is God’s (verdict /promise) , and It has nothing to do with your scripture. Re read these verse that you’ve quoted.
For example, Surah 10:64 (or 65)
لَهُمُ الْبُشْرَىٰ فِي الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا وَفِي الْآخِرَةِ ۚ لَا تَبْدِيلَ لِكَلِمَاتِ اللَّهِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ هُوَ الْفَوْزُ الْعَظِيمُ
“For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present and in the Hereafter; no change can there be in the words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme felicity”
It’s the promise of Allah for believers that they will have the glad tidings, in the life of the present and in the Hereafter; no change can there be in the words of Allah. This verdict cannot be changed since Allah is not a human being, that he should change his mind 🙂 Got it?
I believe that you’ve the same expression in English. Are you a man of his word?
Another example from Quran Surah (48:15)
“Those who remained behind will say when you set out toward the war booty to take it, “Let us follow you.” They wish to change the words of Allah . Say, “Never will you follow us. Thus did Allah say before.” So they will say, “Rather, you envy us.” But [in fact] they were not understanding except a little.”
“They wish to change the words of Allah” since Allah has already told the prophet that those people will not go with him. It’s a verdict that they cannot change even if they want.
Allah had given a promise that Byzantine empire will be destroyed by the kingdom of God as Daniel 2 tells, for example. Although christians & Jews wish they could change that promise, yet Allah has fulfilled his promise in spite of their envy .
LikeLiked by 1 person
“Still no idea why you keep writing things in Farsi. You need to learn Arabic if you want to talk about Quran.”
Exactly!
LikeLike
Most everything I wrote above, when using another language, is the Arabic of the Qur’an. Only the first sentence is Farsi. We have that word, “change” مبدل and تبدیل comes from that root.
وَلَا مُبَدِّلَ لِكَلِمَاتِ اللَّهِ
“And there is no changing the words of Allah” (This phrase is from Surah 6:34, and see 6:115 (116); 10:64 (65); 18:27 below)
LikeLike
FARSI FARSI FARSI FARSI
LikeLiked by 1 person
Didn’t you notice that most of it was Arabic from the Qur’an? Only the first sentence was Farsi, and it has lots of the same Arabic root words in it.
LikeLike
FARSI FARSI FARSI
LikeLike
Again Ken, you need to learn Arabic and its expressions. I’m not gonna repeat what I said.
The word of Allah= his verdicts and promises. If Allah said statement about something, it has to be as he said exactly. For example, If Allah said you will not die before you accept Islam, then that will happen definitely. No one can change the word (i.e Allah’s verdict) of Allah.
David is more than ignorance when it comes to Islam,and that why your James White questioned his wisdom if he has any. I mean, David is a liar! Isn’t that enough for you? Look to his followers! Look to his fruits!
LikeLike
Abdullah wrote:
In fact, christians are more likely to be sinful since they are freed from the law of God. Do whatever you want since you will not lose your salvation once you accpet Jesus as your savior . This is what christians keep teach.
Romans 6:1-7
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?
2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?
3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.
6 We know that our old self[a] was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin.
Do whatever you want since you will not loose your salvation . . . – ?
see verse 2 –
By no means!! God forbid!! No way man !!
Those that practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God – see Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions,
21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
The Bible NEVER taught what you said above.
If one has no fruit or change, they are not a believer.
LikeLike
“The Bible NEVER taught what you said above.”
It’s the requisite of your belief otherwise what is the benefit from Jesus’ death ?
“By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? ”
The real world not the world of fantasy says that verse is a lie. I’ve not seen any thing special with “religious” christians! I mean by their definition of “religious” person. You’re more than normal, and more likely to be sinful. In fact, when I see some muslims who are not devoted to Islam, they’re still more religious from most religious christians.
“Galatians 5:19-21”
It’s exactly what I said. It proves what I said not the opposite.
Also, let’s say that you want to have sex ( i.e.fornincation), woud that make you lose your salvation?
If the answer is NO, then you’re more likely to make that sin
If the answer is YES, then the whole drama about the dead god is collapsed.
In both answers, Paul’s religion is a wicked one with no doubt.
LikeLike
“we can choose to not sin by the power of the cros”
???
We choose to not sin too!
Why do you think that the bluffing of Paul is so profound? It’s vapid literally, and it has no meaning. It just shows how the Hellenistic pagan culture affected on his thoughts.
“The power of the cross”
What does that even mean? I see that you’ve taken that object as an idol literally. No wonder that Jesus will break the cross when he will come. Christians will follow the cross to the Hellfire according to one of the prophet’s Hadith. It’s your idol.
LikeLike
“We choose to not sin too!”
Exactly.
LikeLike
“the power of the cross” means the power of Jesus Christ in His substitutionary atonement on the cross; because He took the wrath of God against sin for us. He was our substitute, like in that the Qur’an actually affirms that truth by having some of the truth of Genesis 22 in it, when God supplied the ram as a substitute, when God said to Abraham, “We have ransomed him with a mighty sacrifice” Surah 37:107
وَفَدَيْنَاهُ بِذِبْحٍ عَظِيمٍ
This was fullfilled at the cross of Jesus Christ. John 1:29 – “Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.” Yahya, John the Baptist said that – the Jews knew he was talking about fulfillment of the Passover Lamb of Exodus 12 (1 Corinthians 5:7) and fulfilling Isaac’s question and Abraham’s answer in Genesis 22:7-8. The ram supplied then (Genesis 22:13) was a prophesy/foreshadowing of the lamb to be supplied later in Christ the Messiah. (see also Daniel 9:24-27 –
Messiah and atonement for sins concepts together) and Isaiah 52:13-15 and 53:1-12 – the suffering servant Messiah). Genesis 22:12 and 16 are alluded to in Romans 8:32
He who did not spare (did not withhold – see parallel in Genesis 22:12 and 16) His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?
Jesus Himself taught these things – Mark 10:45
The Son of man came not to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”
Ransom – same concept in Qur’an 37:107 – a substitutionary sacrifice that satisfied God’s justice against sin.
LikeLike
You cannot choose not to sin – a non-Christian has no power to not sin – every good deed is tainted by selfish motives and false worship – Jesus Al Masih said, “Everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin” (John 8:34) and “Unless you are born again by the Spirit of God, you cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (John 3:1-10) and “No one can come to God the Father except through (faith in) Me” John 14:6) Al Masih is the only way, the only truth, the only life” = one way to God. John 14:6; Acts 4:12
LikeLike
Jesus Al Masih said:
43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
45 But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.
46 Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me?
47 He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”
John 8:43-47
You are slaves of sin and cannot choose the right way with pure motives.
John 8:34 – whoever commits sin is the slave of sin – the will of all humans is in bondage to sin until Christ changes them in regeneration (being born again by God’s Spirit).
Ephesians 2:1-3
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
LikeLike
” because He took the wrath of God against sin for us”
OK, that would encourage you to do more sins since you know that someone had paid already for you sins. See! you repeat yourself.
“He was our substitute, like in that the Qur’an actually affirms that truth by having some of the truth of Genesis 22 in it, when God supplied the ram as a substitute, when God said to Abraham, “We have ransomed him with a mighty sacrifice” Surah 37:107
وَفَدَيْنَاهُ بِذِبْحٍ عَظِيمٍ”
This is a lie I’ve exposed. The story of my father Abraham and his son has nothing to do with the crazy belief that christians believe in that God has to be a man to die for others’ sins. That was a test for Abraham, and Allah fulfilled that vision after Abraham succeed
“You do not desire a sacrifice, or I would offer one. You do not want a burnt offering.
The sacrifice you desire is a broken spirit. You will not reject a broken and repentant heart, O God.” Psalms 51:16-17.
LikeLike
“You cannot choose not to sin – a non-Christian has no power to not sin”
Oh!
Again, we are not in your church! The spirit of satan that you have to preach this nonsense has zero effect on us. You’re talking with muslims here. Remember that always.
LikeLike
True Christians are set free from the guilt and bondage of sin; set free from the slavery of sin. That is not free from the obligations to obey God’s law and live lives of holiness.
“Shall we continue in sin because we are no under law (as a way of effort to earn salvation) but under grace?
By no means !! May it never be!! No way man !! God forbid !!
Romans 6:15
“not under law” of Romans 6:14 means “not under law as a way to try and earn one’s salvation by human efforts”, but it does not mean “free from obligations to obey God’s law.
Is the law sin? May it never be!! no way !!
Romans 7:7
The law shows me my sin (coveting, lusting, sinful desires) and the law is good, righteous, and holy.
Romans 7:7-12
LikeLike
It’s one question, Ken. What does it mean that you’re set free from the sin?
Does it mean that you’ve become angels ?
Does it mean that you cannot sin anymore?
Tell us!
LikeLiked by 1 person
No; it does not mean completely set free from the presence of sins or sinful actions; rather it means set free from the bondage / slavery / dominion of sin. the bondage and slavery of sin was broken. That is what Romans 6:6 says, “that we should no longer be slaves of sin” – before regeneration, all people are in bondage to sin, only Christ can set you free. John 8:31-32 – “if you abide in My Word, you prove yourself to be My disciple; and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” “the Son sets you free indeed” John 8:36
John 8:34
for the un-regenerated person (person not born again), their wills are enslaved to sin. Jesus said, “Whoever commits sin is the slave of sin” John 8:34 – only Christ can set you free – John 8:31-32 and 36
no, we are not like angels and not sinless; rather we can choose to obey God now.
LikeLike
Still no answer!
“The bondage and slavery of sin was broken” which means….?
LikeLiked by 1 person
we can choose to not sin by the power of the cross, which broke the slavery/bondage to sin; and by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 6:6; 6:11-13; Romans 8:13; Galatians 5:13-26
LikeLike
Ken Temple
April 7, 2017 • 10:26 pm
No; it does not mean completely set free from the presence of sins or sinful actions; rather it means set free from the bondage / slavery / dominion of sin. the bondage and slavery of sin was broken. That is what Romans 6:6 says, “that we should no longer be slaves of sin” – before regeneration, all people are in bondage to sin, only Christ can set you free. John 8:31-32 – “if you abide in My Word, you prove yourself to be My disciple; and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” “the Son sets you free indeed” John 8:36
I say;
Abdullah reminded you above, that you are not in your church, so do not think we will take any confusion and or lies from you. You know this blog is a critical thinking site reserved for critical thinkers who will accept the truth and not lies.
I repeat, this is the question from brother Abdullah
Abdullah
April 7, 2017 • 8:21 pm
It’s one question, Ken. What does it mean that you’re set free from the sin?
Does it mean that you’ve become angels ?
Does it mean that you cannot sin anymore?
Tell us!
Your answer above is that, you and Christians are not completely set free from the presence of sins or sinful nature.
You see. You have lied here and changed the question.
Abdullah did not ask you about the presence of sins or sinful nature. As even kindergarten kid knows that sins and sinful nature is present everywhere and to every human thoughts.
Abdullah asked you that
“Does it mean that you cannot sin anymore?
Tell us!”
You lied and lied Ken and changed the above question to “presence of sins” and “sinful nature” and that is not what brother Abdullah asked.
Brother Abdullah asked you about sin itself, are you and are Christians free from sin? We need answer. If no, then Jesus did not die for their sins and Jesus did not die for any ones sins.
It is a lie to keep preaching in your church that Jesus died for peoples sins and yet expect them(your Christian congregation) who are not free from sins like Muslims and Jews to repent when they sin. It is a lie to say Jesus died for peoples sins, but you clearly knew as you stated above that;
“it does not completely set you free”
If I cannot get a complete fair to pay for my travel, it means I do not have the means to travel. So many people do not have complete fair to travel and it means they cannot travel.
If Christians are not completely saved, why lie and lie by Christians that they are completely saved? by the blood of Jesus Christ? Christianity itself becomes a lie by saying “You are saved by the blood of Jesus” and yet “it does not completely set you free”-by Ken Temple and not me. The evidence is there for everyone to read.
You are not in your church every lie you write here will be pointed out to you and brother Abdullah has warned you about that.
Just look at the lies and changing of questions you did.
Christianity of Ken Temple is like a utility company with hidden charges. The company will advertise $2.99 per month only. After you signed and you will realize it is a lie it is not true but you have to pay more and the advertised $2.99 is not what is required for the fee.
If Jesus died for peoples sins, that should be it. But it is not the case. According to Ken Temple, “it does not completely set you free”.
Ken, then why lie that believing in Jesus death sets you free?
Sorry for me using lies, lies and lies and I am afraid that is what it is. How can you tell us “Jesus died for your sins” and also said above that “it does not completely set you free”? The 2 are opposite and it is a lie.
If Christians are not completely set free by the blood of Jesus as said above, then why lie and lie?
Ken Temple is doing his best to sell Christianity to Muslims but the above shows Christianity is a lie, may be another Christian can explain to us better and the question is still this;
—————————-
Abdullah
April 7, 20’17 • 8:21 pm
It’s one question, Ken. What does it mean that you’re set free from the sin?
Does it mean that you’ve become angels ?
Does it mean that you cannot sin anymore?
Tell us!
====================
Ken did not answer but changed “sin” to “sinful nature” and kept talking rubbish and gibberish of “slavery”, “bondage” etc. which are irrelevant to the question and trying to divert the question and to confuse. We are not Christians in his church but we are fast thinkers and ready to convert to Christianity if he can convince us with this questions but he failed miserably. We will not leave the truth of Islam with this untruth of Christianity.
Thanks.
LikeLike
31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36 So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
John 8:31-36
knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from (the slavery / bondage of) sin.
Romans 6:6-7
11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions.
13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness.
Romans 6:11-13
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:20-23
“You once were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord, therefore walk as children of the light.”
Ephesians 5:8
LikeLike
A better translation of the Greek concept there is this: “rendered powerless” or “nullified”
knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be rendered powerless, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from (the slavery / bondage of) sin.
Romans 6:6-7
same Greek word (katargeo/ καταργεω) is used in Hebrews 2:14 for the devil, and we know the devil still exists, but he has been rendered powerless or nullified
14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
Hebrews 2:14-15
LikeLike
Ken Temple
April 9, 2017 • 3:02 am
A better translation of the Greek concept there is this: “rendered powerless” or “nullified”
knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be rendered powerless, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from (the slavery / bondage of) sin
I say;
How do you know that your old self was crucified with Jesus Christ? evidence and proof and not quoting from the Bible please.
Will you accept a Hindu quoting from his scripture as evidence and proof? If not so do not do that for us. We need evidence that your old self was crucified with Jesus Christ.
The question is not “slaves to sin” or “bondage” but sin itself. Are Christians angels?
—————————-
Abdullah
April 7, 20’17 • 8:21 pm
It’s one question, Ken. What does it mean that you’re set free from the sin?
Does it mean that you’ve become angels ?
Does it mean that you cannot sin anymore?
Tell us!
====================
Christians are not any exceptions. They do sin everyday. I have a lot of Christian friends and family members and I have never seen an angel among them. They do sin. So this slavery and bondage thing is outright lies and nonsense.
Thanks.
LikeLike
Ken said
“You cannot enter the kingdom of God”
Quran translation answers :
And they say, “None will enter Paradise except one who is a Jew or a Christian.” That is [merely] their wishful thinking, Say, “Produce your proof, if you should be truthful.
Yes [on the contrary], whoever submits his face in Islam to Allah while being a doer of good will have his reward with his Lord. And no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.”
Jesus declares
“For the kingdom of heaven is like a master of a house who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. 2 After agreeing with the laborers for a denarius[a] a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 And going out about the third hour he saw others standing idle in the marketplace, 4 and to them he said, ‘You go into the vineyard too, and whatever is right I will give you.’ 5 So they went. Going out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour, he did the same. 6 And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing. And he said to them, ‘Why do you stand here idle all day?’ 7 They said to him, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You go into the vineyard too.’ 8 And when evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last, up to the first.’ 9 And when those hired about the eleventh hour came, each of them received a denarius. 10 Now when those hired first came, they thought they would receive more, but each of them also received a denarius. 11 And on receiving it they grumbled at the master of the house, 12 saying, ‘These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.’ 13 But he replied to one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what belongs to you and go. I choose to give to this last worker as I give to you. 15 Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?’[b] 16 So the last will be first, and the first last.”
The prophet ﷺ affirms :
Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) said, “Your example and the example of Jews and Christians is like the example of a man who employed some laborers to whom he said, ‘Who will work for me up to midday for one Qirat each?’ The Jews carried out the work for one Qirat each; and then the Christians carried out the work up to the `Asr prayer for one Qirat each; and now you Muslims are working from the `Asr prayer up to sunset for two Qirats each. The Jews and Christians got angry and said, ‘We work more and are paid less.’ The employer (Allah) asked them, ‘Have I usurped some of your right?’ They replied in the negative. He said, ‘That is My Blessing, I bestow upon whomever I wish’ “. Sahih Bukhari
Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) said “We are the last (but) we would be the first on the Day of Resurrection, and we would be the first to enter Paradise, but that they were given the Book before us and we were given after them. They disagreed and Allah guided us aright on whatever they disagreed regarding the truth”.
Sahih Muslims.
LikeLike
Jews, as everyone else does, have to accept Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah, sacrifice/ransom/substitute for sin, resurrected, Son of God, God the Son, etc. in order to be saved. Most of the first Christians in history were Jews. Many today are true believing Jews, like Dr. Michael Brown and Stan Telchin.
The Qur’an came 600 years later and did not know what the content of the previous revelations and changed some of it when using the Old Testament.
And those Hadith are even later, some 800 years later – they are false and forged writings as they claim to be revelation and truth, but have no inspiration and since revelation ceased with the New Testament (the true Injeel) by 96 AD, they are not valid.
LikeLike
So once you get cornered, you start repeating the childish chrstians’ argument?
We have refuted all these vapid accusations, and I have no interest to repeat that. I’d rather safe my time and efforts for soemthing else.
LikeLike
Christianity is more than only forgiveness of sins; we get that, and more – we have the power to overcome sin because our old self that we were in Adam (the old man/ human in Adam -see 1 Cor. 15:22 and Romans 5:12-21) – our old self was crucified with Christ on the cross (Romans 6:6; Galatians 2:20), we are new creatures in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17), “that the body of sin (the flesh- Galatians 5:17, the sin principle – 1 John 1:8; 1 John 2:15; Romans 7:14-25, remaining sin- James 1:21, 2 Cor. 7:1, or as in Arabic and Farsi – the nafs e Amareh نفس اماره ) would be rendered powerless / nullified / slavery broken) so that we would no longer be slaves to sin” Romans 6:6, John 8:31-36, Galatians 2:20
But if a person claims to be born again, a Christian, and yet lives a life-style of practicing these sins constantly – Galatians 5:19-21, it means that they are not really a Christian.
They may have had a spiritual and emotional and religious experience (as Paul “Bilal” Williams claims), but they were not truly born again by the Spirit of God. Jesus said, “I never knew you” (Matthew 7:21-23)
LikeLike
Ken, it’s the obligation of your doctrine that you can do sins happily and with no guilt since someone had paid for your sins already. Whatever you say beyond that, it doesn’t work otherwise why your almighty “god” would die for you in the first place?
Moreover, look around you! The real life of christians is so telling how this satanic belief works on them unless you repeat these verses in Psalms over their hearings, but I don’t think that you would 🙂
“You do not desire a sacrifice, or I would offer one. You do not want a burnt offering.
The sacrifice you desire is a broken spirit. You will not reject a broken and repentant heart, O God.”
LikeLike
Ken Temple
April 9, 2017 • 2:41 am
we can choose to not sin by the power of the cross, which broke the slavery/bondage to sin; and by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 6:6; 6:11-13; Romans 8:13; Galatians 5:13-26.
I say;
Our honorable good friend Reverend Ken Temple is intoxicated by the blood of Jesus in that he continue to repeat himself and say rubbish.
Why did I use the word rubbish and nonsense for our educated Reverent Ken Temple?
He said NO ONE CAN CHOOSE NOT TO SIN EXCEPT CHRISTIANS AND AMONG THE CHRISTIANS WILL BE TRUE CHRISTIANS.
That is a lie because any human being can choose not to sin.
Proof:
Any human being NOT CHRISTIANS ALONE can choose not to sin by let say the non Christian will think of stealing, having illegal sex, telling lies etc. and that NONE CHRISTIAN will CHOOSE NOT TO DO THAT SIN. This is common practice to all mankind except arrogant, exclusivist, segregated, person who will deny that any human being can choose not to sin.
We can choose not to sin too. Any one one deny that and think he and his religion are the only people who can choose not to sin is talking nonsense.
Ken Temple has insulted us by saying he and his religion alone can choose not to sin so I am obliged to reciprocate in good gesture so that he will not reply that nonsense again.
He said Christians(Some) are the only ones to be
-saved
-spiritual regenerated
-holds the key to heaven
-choose not to sin
-etc.
and all without evidence or proof. He only quotes some nonsense from the Bible which no one understands except him. That is not evidence or proof Christians have this or that. I is a believe some people like him holds and any other religion has its own beliefs and that is not evidence and proof but beliefs.
You can not use your belief as evidence and believe to others unless there is agreement between you and your dialog partners to set a criteria. You cannot use a Bible as a criteria unless there is agreement. We d not agree with the unintelligible biblical verses you kept quoting.
The question asked by Abdullah whether Christians are angels was never answered.
Thanks.
LikeLike
I answered that question above:
https://bloggingtheology.net/2017/04/06/32275/#comment-46016
LikeLike
“Intellect” wrote:
We d not agree with the unintelligible biblical verses you kept quoting.
Jesus also encountered people who said, “what you say is non-sense, unintelligible, we don’t understand you.”
John 8:43-47
43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
47 He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”
LikeLike
Ken Temple
April 9, 2017 • 2:52 pm
“Intellect” wrote:
We d not agree with the unintelligible biblical verses you kept quoting.
Jesus also encountered people who said, “what you say is non-sense, unintelligible, we don’t understand you.”
John 8:43-47
43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
47 He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”
I say;
You are not Jesus.
Thanks.
LikeLike
you may think you can choose to not sin, but in reality, you cannot – you are slaves of sin just like the Pharisees in John 8:31-47, when Jesus confronted them.
Even when human beings do good deeds; those good deeds are always tainted by selfishness or evil motives – like atheist philanthropists who do good work and give to charity – without the proper motive of glory for God and worship of the true God (the Holy Trinity), their good works are sinful.
“All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” Romans 3:23
even good works fall short because they are not done with pure motives in Christ. Only with the righteousness of Christ to your account can you have salvation.
2 Corinthians 5:21
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Listen to John MacArthur’s message on this one verse please.
https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/47-39/15-words-of-hope
LikeLike
“Even when human beings do good deeds; those good deeds are always tainted by selfishness or evil motives – like atheist philanthropists who do good work and give to charity – without the proper motive of glory for God and worship of the true God (the Holy Trinity), their good works are sinful.”
This is a strawman argument.
Morel over, which is easier, to do your best with a broken heart , or to rely on someone who had paid for your sins?
LikeLike
You have to have both, repentance with a broken heart, and trusting the Messiah Jesus to save you.
The verse in Psalm 51 means that ritual (Jews just going through the motions of the ritual of the temple sacrifices) without repentance is just dead ritual. People who do rituals –
like in Islam – wudu and salaat and haj and giving zakat, and fasting during ramadan, etc. are just dead external rituals; and also can be done in Christianity by just going to church and getting baptized and saying words – without the Holy Spirit reality on the inside (John 3:1-10), it is just dead ritual.
Since you have no Holy Spirit, there is no regeneration.
LikeLike
Ken Temple
April 9, 2017 • 2:48 pm
you may think you can choose to not sin, but in reality, you cannot – you are slaves of sin just like the Pharisees in John 8:31-47, when Jesus confronted them.
I say;
Where is your evidence and proof that someone who was going to have Illegal sex, steal, tell lies like you are doing hear but that person has changed of mind and stopped and not do those is not choosing to sin. Give us a proof that is not choosing not to sin by the person.
Honestly, quoting your belief or sending links is nonsense. We want evidence and proof that that when a person has a change of mind and not to commit sin is not “CHOOSING NOT TO SIN”
Your Christian quotes is nonsense at this time. We need proof and evidence because you are cheating from your religion against others without proof and evidence.
Thanks.
LikeLike
the evidence is the Scriptures of the NT, which the Qur’an affirms in Surah 5:47 and 10:94
LikeLike
Ken Temple
Even when human beings do good deeds; those good deeds are always tainted by selfishness or evil motives – like atheist philanthropists who do good work and give to charity – without the proper motive of glory for God and worship of the true God (the Holy Trinity), their good works are sinful.
I say;
This is outright nonsense. To keep spewing this nonsense and insults to others without evidence and proof from and educated person is wrong.
Who tells you when an atheist adopted an orphan and took care of him is not good deeds? Any sensible person including most Christians will not agree with you on this one.
Thanks.
LikeLike
Ken Temple
April 9, 2017 • 3:20 pm
the evidence is the Scriptures of the NT, which the Qur’an affirms in Surah 5:47 and 10:94
I say;
Where did the Quran mentioned NT, New Testament, Mark, Mathew, Luke, John or Paul of Tarsus?
Give us that evidence.
The Quran clearly said the gospel given to Jesus Christ himself. If you can get a gospel of Jesus then we will accept that.
The Bible said Jesus preached the gospel. That is what the Quran is talking about.
Thanks.
LikeLike
since the 27 books of NT was in existance since 100 AD, and it was the book of the Christians, and the Qur’an around 620-650 AD says, “the people who are reading the Injeel”, “the people of the book”, etc. it proves the NT is the truth.
LikeLike
Wrong.
The New Testament did not exist in the first century. Neither Jesus not Paul nor Peter or anyone ever heard of it!
LikeLike
all the 27 books of the NT existed as individual scrolls; so you are wrong.
LikeLike
But the New Testament did not exist. So you are in error.
LikeLiked by 1 person
if they all existed as individual scrolls/ books, then it existed.
LikeLike
wrong. Individual books is not the same as the New Testament.
LikeLiked by 1 person
when a list is made of those 27 first century books, the NT exists.
and Dr. Kruger demonstrated that.
https://michaeljkruger.com/a-curious-clue-about-the-origins-of-the-new-testament-canon/#more-5691
LikeLike
also, see here:
https://michaeljkruger.com/a-curious-clue-about-the-origins-of-the-new-testament-canon/#more-5691
LikeLike
“You have to have both”
Well… we say you have to have both (good deeds and the broken heart), and that what Jesus had affirmed in all his ministry since there’s no contradiction between the both except in christians’ minds.
BTW, the good deeds in Islam includes the internal deeds called (A’mal Alqoloob) i.e the deeds of hearts.
However, in your belief there’s no reason to have both! You just need to accept this gift as you claim, and that why you display yourselves proudly that you’re saved with a guarantee.
(Psalms 51:16) destroys your religion as whole since God indeed can be pleased without a sacrifice even. Once you do your best as you can, God will be pleased
“And he said, “Truly, I tell you, this poor widow has put in more than all of them.
For they have given a tiny part of their surplus, but she, poor as she is, has given everything she has.”
I’m asking again, which is easier , to do your best with a broken heart as God has always commanded or to rely on someone who had paid for your sins ?Any answer?
LikeLike
Ken, it’s the obligation of your doctrine that you can do sins happily and with no guilt since someone had paid for your sins already.
No, no true believer in Christ sins happily without guilt.
we do not sin happily. 1 John 1:5-10
Psalm 51 is true for us; but not for you
LikeLike
Psalm 51:4-9
4 Against You, You only, I have sinned
And done what is evil in Your sight,
So that You are justified when You speak
And blameless when You judge.
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
[everyone is a sinner by birth, having inherited an evil nature from their parents, who everyone got it from Adam and Eve after they sinned – Romans 5:12]
6 Behold, You desire truth in the innermost being,
And in the hidden part You will make me know wisdom.
7 Purify me with hyssop [hyssop is the branch by which they applied the blood after the sacrifice in the tabernacle and temple sacrificial system – see Exodus 12:22 and Hebrews 9:19) , and I shall be clean;
Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Make me to hear joy and gladness,
Let the bones which You have broken rejoice.
9 Hide Your face from my sins
And blot out all my iniquities.
You cannot claim Psalm 51:17 without also obeying / applying Psalm 51:4-9, specifically Psalm 51:7 – the blood sacrifice has to be applied by the hyssop branch (used as a brush to apply the blood),and Psalm 51:16-17 means the sacrifice by itself without heart repentance and faith is just dead ritual; but it is not cancelling out verse 7 totally; it is saying you have to have both.
LikeLike
Yes, you also have to good deeds, but as the result of true salvation. James 2:14-26
a claim of faith without works is dead
claiming faith does not mean one has real faith.
LikeLike
In fact, I can still apply Pslams51:16-17. It’s explicitly aganist your religion as whole.
The emphasis in that passage is against your belief as whole which is about the blood and the atonement sacrifice. That passage explicitly is telling you that the broken heart is the important matter not the blood.
Imagine if a man kept doing sins since his birthday, yet God is telling you that he can be pleased with him, and he can forgive him just by brining a broken heart. Tell me, what left in Paul’s religion? NOTHING!
Note:
Till now, you have not answered us about the meaning of ” you choose not to sin” except by restating the bluffing of your prophet paul.
Also, please don’t try to play the (original sin) card since Jesus said
“I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven”
LikeLike
“a claim of faith without works is dead”
Then, there’s no reason to drop the law of God as your prophet Paul taught, and you should call him the least in the kingdom of God.
LikeLiked by 1 person
So the sword verse In surah9 must be understood by verse 13, but Psalm 51:17 doesn’t need to be understood according to its context?
Riiiiigght- another great example of Muslim consistency.
LikeLiked by 1 person
good one Paulus !!
LikeLike
Paulus, no time for trolls!
Switch your mind off, and find any church to receive the satanic spirit. It’s Sunday.
LikeLike
You are the troll for ignoring the literary context. It’s not hard.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Ken,
let us settle the matter!
“let us settle the matter says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool”
How on earth could God say such thing while the “perfect sacrifice” has not offered yet?
Where’s Paul’s religion? Where?
LikeLiked by 1 person
that is from Isaiah chapter 1. The same author prophesied of the suffering servant-Messiah to come in Isaiah 52:13-15 and 53:1-12 and Jesus said He was the fulfillment of that in Mark 10:45 and Matthew 20:28 and even the Qur’an demonstrates this by affirming the same concept of ransom by substitutionary sacrifice.
LikeLike
Intellect
April 9, 2017 • 3:04 pm
Ken Temple
April 9, 2017 • 2:48 pm
you may think you can choose to not sin, but in reality, you cannot – you are slaves of sin just like the Pharisees in John 8:31-47, when Jesus confronted them.
I say;
Where is your evidence and proof that someone who was going to have Illegal sex, steal, tell lies like you are doing hear but that person has changed of mind and stopped and not do those is not choosing to sin. Give us a proof that is not choosing not to sin by the person.
Honestly, quoting your belief or sending links is nonsense. We want evidence and proof that that when a person has a change of mind and not to commit sin is not “CHOOSING NOT TO SIN”
Your Christian quotes is nonsense at this time. We need proof and evidence because you are cheating from your religion against others without proof and evidence.
Correction.
I detected a mistake I made. Instead of here I used hear. Please forgive me. I type hurriedly to reply those nonsense we are witnessing.
When an atheist or non Christian adopted an orphan and took care of him, it is not a good deeds unless he accept Jesus died for his sins-Ken Temple.
I say;
That is outright rubbish.
Thanks.
LikeLike
When an atheist or non Christian adopted an orphan and took care of him, it is not a good deeds unless he accept Jesus died for his sins-Ken Temple.
Those good deeds done by unbelievers are always tainted with other sinful motives – an atheist or non-Christian cannot go to heaven.
That is basic Christianity and Bible truth.
John 3:16
“. . . that whoever believes will not perish but have eternal life” = everyone is ALREADY perishing (going to hell) because of sin. Atheists go to hell, unless they repent before they die.
Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, secular humanists, and church goers who are not born again – all are perishing and on the way to hell unless they repent and trust Christ as savior and Lord.
LikeLike
Ken Temple
Since you have no Holy Spirit, there is no regeneration.
I say;
We have seen people like Nabeel Quraish, Sam Shamoun, Pastor Jimmy Swaggart, Pastor Eddie Lee Long, Church Fathers(worse sex offenders) etc. who have Holy Spirit in them but are worse that other human beings who do not have Holy Spirit in them. The Christian Holy Spirit has failed miserable.
Ken will say they are not true evidence and proof. As if Ken is God entering into the hearts and minds of people to know they are not true Christians.
Thanks.
LikeLike
Most of them you mentioned are probably not Christians.
I think Nabeel is sincere, though it would better if he explained his Ahmadiye background more often. (but he has admitted that many times, just not enough)
“Church Fathers(worse sex offenders)” – you mean the modern Roman Catholic priests who have been convicted of sexual assault on minors, etc.
You don’t mean “the Early Church Fathers” like in the first 4-5 centuries (Clement, Ignatius, Ireneaeus , Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Cyprian, Tertullian, Athanasius, Augustine, etc.)
LikeLike
Ken:
Allah’s grace transforms our life:
https://bloggingtheology.net/2017/04/08/32378/
Allah’s promise to believers: ‘A new Life that is good and pure’
LikeLiked by 1 person
the word “new” is not there in the Arabic and it looks like it is talking about life in paradise as a reward for first doing good works.
you have to do good works first, then get reward in paradise.
You have to earn your way by good works first, and you have to keep it up your whole life and even then, it is “Insha’allah” – if God wills.
LikeLike
“You have to earn your way by good works first, and you have to keep it up your whole life and even then, it is “Insha’allah” – if God wills.”
For you, because you know for sure you will not lose your salvation no matter what, you don’t need to keep your life to be righteous. It’s the open door for sins since you’ve got your “certificate” for paradise.
But Quran has given you a test which has exposed this mentality grossly
“Say, [O Muhammad], “If the home of the Hereafter with Allah is for you alone and not the [other] people, then wish for death, if you should be truthful.
But they will never wish for it, ever, because of what their hands have put forth. And Allah is Knowing of the wrongdoers.”
LikeLiked by 1 person
Romans chapter 6 addresses that issue. if a person has that attitude – that they don’t have to live a holy and righteous life – it shows that they were not changed (united with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection). A true believer is changed/regenerated so that they no longer want to live a dirty life of sin and they fight against their sinful desires every day.
A good article on how a former Lesbian was changed by the grace of God:
http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/the-dead-end-of-sexual-sin
LikeLike
The Qur’an even affirms the ransom substitutionary sacrifice in Surah 37:107 –
“we have ransomed him with a mighty sacrifice”
LikeLike
Ken Temple
Fighting sinful desires?
A true believer is changed/regenerated so that they no longer want to live a dirty life of sin and they fight against their sinful desires every day.-Ken Temple
Contradicted himself and Christianity.
Ken Temple
April 7, 2017 • 10:26 pm
No; it does not mean completely set free from the presence of sins or sinful actions; rather it means set free from the bondage / slavery / dominion of sin. the bondage and slavery of sin was broken.
Question.
If the bondage of sin was broken by the blood of Jesus why fight against it? It means it was not broken after all.
Thanks.
LikeLike
“Romans chapter 6 addresses that issue. if a person has that attitude – that they don’t have to live a holy and righteous life ”
No, it doesn’t ! You cannot open the door for sins, then you try deceptively to say the opposite.
What makes things be even worse that your prophet believed that the law is reason for sins
“Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, “You must not covet.”
Well Paul, then indeed you said that the law of God is sinful regardless that stupid philosophy that you try to say. Why? “For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness”
How evil your prophet is.
In other words, Paul was saying it’s better to say there’re no sins anymore by cancelling the definition of sins, so if you commit one, then it’s not a sin since who said it’s a sin in the first place. He was complaining about the law of God which has given the sins their definition , so you cannot do them. Paul was upset because of that.
“I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.”
Yes, Paul the law leads to the righteousness, and your religion is false grossly.
LikeLike
Ken Temple
April 9, 2017 • 6:07 pm
Most of them you mentioned are probably not Christians.
I think Nabeel is sincere, though it would better if he explained his Ahmadiye background more often. (but he has admitted that many times, just not enough)
“Church Fathers(worse sex offenders)” – you mean the modern Roman Catholic priests who have been convicted of sexual assault on minors, etc.
You don’t mean “the Early Church Fathers” like in the first 4-5 centuries (Clement, Ignatius, Ireneaeus , Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Cyprian, Tertullian, Athanasius, Augustine, etc.)
I say;
Where is your certificate from God to keep telling us who is a Christian and who is not a Christian? Those people like Jimmy Swaggart, Benny Hinn, Joel Olsteen etc. will be happy to call you not a Christian. You all do not have certificate from God to label who a Christian is. What you said is rubbish. Because you like Nabeel Quraish for his lies against Islam, you excluded him from the failure of Holy Spirit and you tried to defend him and left those Christians you do not like as not Christians.
Who do you think will buy your choice and rubbish of who a Christian is?
You said;
Those good deeds done by unbelievers are always tainted with other sinful motives – an atheist or non-Christian cannot go to heaven.
That is basic Christianity and Bible truth.
John 3:16
I say;
Don’t worry. You saying this does not make it true. You do not have any evidence or proof except your arrogance towards others who do not believe in what you believe. We also believe you worship a man and not God and that is a big sin punishable in hell fire. We have evidence to prove that you worship a man-Jesus.
Most sensible people, including some Christians in your denomination will disagree with you that atheist taking care of orphans as good deeds is not a good deeds to you.
Thanks.
LikeLike
Ken Temple
April 9, 2017 • 6:11 pm
When an atheist or non Christian adopted an orphan and took care of him, it is not a good deeds unless he accept Jesus died for his sins-Ken Temple.
Those good deeds done by unbelievers are always tainted with other sinful motives – an atheist or non-Christian cannot go to heaven.
That is basic Christianity and Bible truth.
I say;
The Basic Judaism and Islam is that those who worship any image or object i.e. a man-Jesus, is punishable in hell fire.
Proof from the Bible.
EXODUS 20:4-6 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
DEUTERONOMY 4:15-16 ” Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure….”
Jesus a a form, figure, image and a man, so worshiping him is idolatry and punishable by hell fire.
Thanks
LikeLike
God the Son, the 2nd Person of the Trinity; voluntarily chose to become a human. He can do that if He wants to.
That is why He was born of a virgin.
John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time; the only eternally generated God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
John 14:9
Jesus said, “if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father”
LikeLike
John 14:9
Jesus said, “if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father”
But, Jesus and Father are different persons with different wills, knowledge and authority. How can Jesus(as) disciples seeing him means they have seen the Father ?
If Jesus(as) was indeed affirming what you believe, he should have ideally said “if you have seen Me, you have seen God”
LikeLike
Gabriel Jesus
April 10, 2017 • 8:21 am
John 14:9
Jesus said, “if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father”
But, Jesus and Father are different persons with different wills, knowledge and authority. How can Jesus(as) disciples seeing him means they have seen the Father ?
If Jesus(as) was indeed affirming what you believe, he should have ideally said “if you have seen Me, you have seen God
I say;
Ken Temple has provided the answer in his rebuttal without knowing. In his rebuttal below;
“No one has ever seen God” but the disciples saw Jesus and obviously Jesus was not God because he was seen and no one has ever seen God.
Ken’s rebuttal
——————–
Ken Temple
April 10, 2017 • 1:07 am
God the Son, the 2nd Person of the Trinity; voluntarily chose to become a human. He can do that if He wants to.
That is why He was born of a virgin.
John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time; the only eternally generated God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
John 14:9
Jesus said, “if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father
————————-
Ken Temple worships generated/created God and he has to guts to condemn other people to hell. That is the world of fantasy Ken and some Christians are living it. Some Christians are respectful and will not condemn others to hell.
Eternally generated being is a bad English language. How about idol worshipers eternally generated beings/gods? Haile Selaissie, Sai Baba and the rest? The Mormons multipersonal gods. Yes, if God can do whatever he wants as the Christians would like us to believe then he can become the Mormons multi persons gods and other multi persons gods.
Thanks.
LikeLike
the bondage/slavery of sin is different than the action or presence of sin.
In the bondage/slavery of sin – the person has no choice, they always sin, the chains of bondage are still there.
but we still have the principle of sin (inner pull – the nafs Amareh نفس اماره ) (see Romans 7:14-25; 2 Corinthians 7:1; James 1:21; 1 John 1:8) and we have to fight against evil desires.
LikeLike
The biggest spiritual regeneration is the pilgrimage to Mecca.
Unmatched by anything else on this planet.
LikeLiked by 1 person
An external ritual of emotional and religious experience with thousands/millions of other Muslims. (where sometimes sadly many people get trampled on and killed and hurt. Overcrowding is a big problem and use of space.
We hear about these tragedies every year.)
There is nothing about it that speaks about an internal change of nature or becoming a new creature on the inside by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Allah should know about the dangers of requiring over a Billion people to go to one place in a certain time every year and so, (once in lifetime) they should be able to go any time, not just that certain time of the year.
Seems the Almighty Allah is unaware of the problems of space and overcrowding and trampling, etc.
Many Muslims are rejected from going because Saudi has had to make rules for how many people can fit and come because of space problems.
Wonder why Allah did not anticipate this problem and make the rules that they could go anytime, not just that certain time ?
LikeLike
Ken are you aware that Allah is simply the Arabic name for God? Are you aware that Arab speaking Christians and Jews call on Allah?
LikeLiked by 1 person
Yes, I know that. There is nothing wrong the word itself, Allah الله
The problem is the Islamic view and doctrine of who Allah is, that He made such a silly rule that had to be performed at only that time of the year in order to be credited as fulfilling the Haj. Muslims go at other times in the year, the lesser “Umrah”; but that does not count as fulfilling one of the pillars that one must do in order to finally be accepted into paradise, Ensha’allah.
You have to do rituals in order to earn points with Allah, and even then, Allah can send you to hell if He wants to – as Abdullah Kunde said and quoted the famous Muslim theologian, Al Ghazzali.
Abdullah Kunde, at the end of one of his debates with Samuel Green, said something to the effect that Allah can change His mind at the last second and sent all the good people to hell, and all the bad people to heaven, and that we have no right to question. (see the last video section. During the question and answer time, beginning at the 8:25 mark. )
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2011/01/saviour-of-world-jesus-or-quran.html
This is one of the best debates out there, in my opinion.
Does anyone know where the quote from Al Ghazzali is found?
Abdullah Kunde quoted it at the end on the last video section of questions from the audience.
“If on the day of judgment Allah decides to send all the good people (believers in Allah) to hell and all the evil people to paradise, He can do that, and we have no right to question.” (I am remembering it from memory, so it may not be an exact quote.)
Can anyone track that down and publish the reference?
If all or even most Muslims agree with that statement that it is Islamic theology and not much disagreement; then that is enough for anyone not to want to become a Muslim, for it reveals the arbitrary and capricious nature of Allah and that His capricious will is above His nature/character and any promise or word to be faithful to that promise that He would give to believers.
LikeLike
Ken,
One word: Umrah
LikeLiked by 2 people
Ken,
we don’t have to provide any answer for you!
Please my brothers don’t give him this chance unless he proves that he has become a new creature on the inside by the power of the Holy Spirit, and what he means by that.
“new creature on the inside by the power of the Holy Spirit”
This is called a claim! Prove it first then ask us whatever you want.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Is Sam Shamoun a new creature? If so what was the old one like!!
LikeLiked by 2 people
“Is Sam Shamoun a new creature? If so what was the old one like!!”
😂😂😂
LikeLiked by 1 person
Ken Temple
April 10, 2017 • 1:07 am
God the Son, the 2nd Person of the Trinity; voluntarily chose to become a human. He can do that if He wants to.
That is why He was born of a virgin.
John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time; the only eternally generated God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
John 14:9
Jesus said, “if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father”
I say;
God the Son, the second Person of the Trinity; voluntarily chose to become a human. He can do that if he wants to-Ken Temple.
I say;
That is a lie. The second Person said the opposite in the Bible and it is clear.
Proof:
Mathew 15:24
New International Version
He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
New Living Translation
Then Jesus said to the woman, “I was sent only to help God’s lost sheep–the people of Israel.”
John 17:3
New International Version
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
English Standard Version
And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
Reverent Ken Temple. I as a Muslim has managed to pull at least 2 clear passages from the Bible that the second person of Trinity clearly said he was sent. I have more to give upon request.
Now, give me only one passage that the second person of the Trinity said ” I voluntarily chose to become a human to die for the sins of humans”
If you are not able to give that proof, then it is clear you are lying to us, and mind you, you are not in your Church. This site is a critical thinking site and all your lies like the above will always be exposed.
The second person of Trinity never said “he voluntarily chose to become human”. The second person also said he cannot do anything by himself, so it is a lie to say “He can do that if he wants”. He never said “I become man”.
Proof:
John 5:30
New International Version
By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
New Living Translation
I can do nothing on my own. I judge as God tells me. Therefore, my judgment is just, because I carry out the will of the one who sent me, not my own will.
With all due respect Ken, from the above you a liar Ken and Christianity is a lie. They think of fantasy in their head and ignore what Jesus said. It is punishable by hell fire to ignore the word of God and create your own.
I believed the above verses and that is part of the gospel given to Jesus by Allah not what Ken is fantasizing in his mind.
Don’t you understand SENT,SENT,SENT,SENT? Where did Jesus ever used the word or phrase “I voluntarily chose to die for humans sins”?
Christians are sinning anyway. It is unwise to think Christians do not sin without any proof or evidence especially by using ones own choice and liking to determine who a Christian is. It is no wonder someones choice will be Nabeel Quraish, a callous liar as a true Christian.
Thanks.
LikeLike
All Christians agree that Jesus was sent by the Father and He did the will of the Father; but the Son also voluntarily came – both are true.
The Matthew 15:24 (and 10:5-6) passage has been answered many times before. Jesus did not mean “forever only for Israel or the Jews”; rather He was testing the Canaanite woman (and the disciples); and also gave the command to His disciples to reach out to all the nations. (Matthew 28:18-20) Jesus also mentioned in the 10:5-6 context a little later in 10:18 that the disciples would go to the nations / Gentiles (non-Jewish ethnicities/peoples). 10:5-6 was a short term mission to start with their own culture.
Matthew 15:24 did not mean forever; it just meant that His primary starting point of ministry would be there in Israel among the lost sheep of Israel. The idea was “to the Jew first, then also to the Greek” (as in Romans 1:16).
Many other passages in Matthew have the theme of outreach to the nations / Gentiles – the Gentile women in Jesus’ genealogy (Matthew 1:3-6), the Magi (Gentiles, Persians, Kurds, Arabs, others), Matthew 10:18; Matthew 8:11; 12:18-21; 13:38; 21:43; 24:14; 28:18-20.
There is no contradiction between being sent by the Father and voluntarily coming. Both are true.
LikeLike
Ken said
“The Qur’an even affirms the ransom substitutionary sacrifice in Surah 37:107 –
“we have ransomed him with a mighty sacrifice”
This is a mere lie. I’ve no idea why you keep repeating this stupid argument. Allah wanted to fulfill Abraham’s vision, and that why he replaced that righteous son with a mighty sacrifice as a (reward). The lesson behind that story has nothing to do with god dying for your sins whatsoever.
Also, are you saying that a person can be ransomed to get (salvation) by a sheep? If this is your point, then the whole religion of yours is going to be collapsed since there’s no need for god to become a man to die for my sins. I just need a great sheep to be offered a s sacrifice. See how stupid your argument is?!
“Come now, let us settle the matter,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.”
LikeLike
Truth never changes and the order of Genesis 22 and the NT showing the fulfillment of it. (Mark 10:45; John 1:29; Isaiah 53, etc.) demonstrates that the Qur’an in Surah 37:107 is affirming the truth of substitutionary atonement. It demonstrates the true meaning of Abraham and the sacrifice and Genesis 22.
Isaiah 1:18 is true; and so is Isaiah 52:13-15 and 53:1-12, also written by the same author of Isaiah 1:18. Both are true.
You must repent (Isaiah 1:18) AND trust in the atonement of the Messiah Suffering Servant to save you – Isaiah 52-53.
Mark 1:15 says this also – “repent and believe”.
LikeLike
You just repeat yourself as any fundamental christian. You need to provide an argument. You have not provided any. You cannot twist Quran as you try to do with the OT. It doesn’t work.
Then again, are you saying that a person can be ransomed to get (salvation) by a sheep? If this is your point, then the whole religion of yours is going to be collapsed since there’s no need for god to become a man to die for my sins. I just need a great sheep to be offered a s sacrifice. See how stupid your argument is?!
Isaiah 1:18 is screaming that Paul’s religion is false.
You said “Isaiah 1:18 is true”, then there’ no need for perfect sacrifice for your crimson sins to be white.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Umrah – yes, I mentioned that; but that still does not count toward the points you have to earn at Haj in order to go to paradise.
LikeLike
Ken Temple
There is no contradiction between being sent by the Father and voluntarily coming. Both are true.- Ken Temple.
I say;
No. Both are not the same. One is command and control and the other is to follow the authority. Why did Jesus not voluntarily come until sent by the Father? It is not voluntary but following others.
Father: Ken, go and help these people
Ken Temple:People, I voluntarily came to help you.
Father: No. That is not true I sent him.
Ken: But both are the same.
Father: No, they are not the same. Why did you wait until I sent you?
Father: Ken, you are acting on my command. You did not sent me. Did you?
Ken. No
Father: So, me sending you is not the same as you not sending me. You did not send me but I sent you. It is misleading to tell the people that you voluntarily came to help them while I commanded you to do that.
In the whole Bible there is no where Jesus said “I voluntarily came to die for your sins” but he said many times that he was send and by the ONLY TRUE GOD who is not Jesus.
This alone must have convinced Ken Temple to reject Christianity and convert to Islam but he thinks he has already been saved without evidence and proof.
The truth shall set you free not blood. Christians like Ken are putting the blood first in their life without proof against anything including truth.
Thanks.
LikeLike