podcast 178 – Apologists on how God can die – Part 1 by Professor Dale Tuggy
Back in episode 145, I laid out a triad of claims which can’t all be true:
1. Jesus died.
2. Jesus was fully divine.
3. No fully divine being has ever died.
I argued that a Christian who wants to be faithful to the New Testament, even when it conflicts with catholic traditions, should affirm 1 and 3, and so deny 2.
But this is not an answer you’re likely to hear from evangelical apologists. Here in part 1, we examine answers by Dr. David Wood and by Mr. Jay Smith. They’re arguing with Muslims, but of course anyone can notice that 1-3 above can’t all be true, and that arguably 1 and 3 are claims that no Christian should deny. A Christian ought to know which of the above to reject, and why.
Do their answers hold up to scrutiny? Click here to listen to the podcast:
Along the way we discuss immortality, essential attributes, perfect being theology, necessary existence, divine aseity, omnipotence, dualism, death, docetism, and the difference between the concepts of theophany and incarnation.
Categories: Christianity, God
Blogging Theology 
And nobody on their side of the fence, Wood’s and Smith’s, will bother because it’s not a Muslim arguing against them…and even if it was it would be considered out of the pale to interact with those arguments because their side want are addicted to listening to regurgitated claims of how Muslims and Islam are raping, killing and taking over.
But on a more serious notw, I find the lack of engagement from evangelicals when it comes to Dr Tuggy quite telling.They don;t touch him with a barge pole…they can’t handle the heat in his kitchen!
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They are addicted to accusing and blaming Islam for every ill in the world, boiling every issue down to “Islam is the problem.” All the while turning a blind eye to the problems within the house of Christianity, they even blame Islam for the theological inconsistencies and confusion within Christianity. Such drivel gets old fast, and the only people who listen to such tripe are those who are incapable of independent thinking, or who are naturally inclined toward hating the eternal “other.” They are unable and incapable dealing with the picture that Tuggy presents…..let alone deal with the Truth of ISLAM!!
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Actually, Steve Hays at Triablogue has refuted Dale Tuggy for years.
http://triablogue.blogspot.com/search?q=Dale+Tuggy
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So how can God die Ken?
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We already answered that thousands of times; as the Divine nature is not affected by death; but Jesus’ human body died. You have lost the argument; face it.
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But I thought you believe Jesus is 100% fully god? How can “god” has human body?
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The Divine nature took on a human body and nature, thus having two natures – John 1:1-5
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten [ eternally generated ] from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Philippians 2:5-8
5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
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For argument sake suppose god “took” on human body called jesus (this is impossible in Islamic theology) then god only *appear* as jesus. Jesus was never a truly distinct person with separate consciousnesses, wills, memories and emotion with god. The supposed death of jesus didnt really happen.
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Good point Ken
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“We already answered that thousands of times; as the Divine nature is not affected by death; but Jesus’ human body died. You have lost the argument; face it.”
The human dies and the divine gets away? That’s gnosticism. Face it.
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“The Divine nature took on a human body and nature, thus having two natures…”
Nonsense. The divine PERSON took on a human nature. The human body is included in “human nature”.
You worship the wrong Trinity. Polyconfusion at its best.
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Jesus died yes. He was fully divine yes. But he is not the whole of God. The whole of God is not contained in Jesus.
O man you have this stuff on a repeating loop. How can Jesus be God and die? Aren’t Jesus and God seperate persons? Arent other people in the bible called God?
Repeat, rinse and start again.
You know Paul that Shakespeare wrote “he that protesteth too much”
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So only the human part of Jesus died. But what use is a human sacrifice to God?
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Why did God have to sacrifice himself, to himself??
To say that God requires a human blood sacrifice to forgive sins limits the power of God.
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Hebrews 9:22 “the law in fact requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.”
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No wonder Christianity is such a violent religion with such a blood soaked history.
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Yeah just look at Egypt.
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Yeah, good point, I wonder who Sisi is working for?
And while were at it lets look at inquisition, crusades, and two world wars, just to start with.
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//the whole God is not contained in Jesus// ==> means jesus is not 100% god
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Water is 100% H20. Ice is 100% H20. Gas is 100% H20.
What is it about islam that rots people’s brains?
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Jesus is 100% God.
HS is 100% God.
The Father is 100% God.
But we are told Christians believe in 1 God!
What is it about christianity that rots people’s brains?
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Yeah Paul there is only one H20. And there is only one God.
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You are a modalist, i.e. a heretic.
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Our Christian friends have to resort to a lot of mental gymnastics and creative improvisations to defend their contradictory beliefs.
This is in marked contrast to Islam, which according to Wikipedia describes as : “Islam is often seen as having the simplest doctrines of the major religions”…and I have to say I agree a 100% with this viewpoint.
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I’d love for you to give me a detailed definition of tawheed. Let’s see how confused you are.
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google it – dont waste our time
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Musagele,
Yes, Islam is simple in its basic doctrines, and very easy to understand in its core concepts.
However, at the same time, it is also complex in the wide expanse and depth of it’s accumulated knowledge, literature, hadeeth, tafsir, interpretive sciences, methodologies, jurisprudence, theological thought and understanding. It is a religion for those who think, reflect, and have intellect, and one can spend an entire lifetime studying, exploring, and striving to understand the fullness of Islamic knowledge.
That is one of the things that makes Islam so attractive, the beauty of its simplicity, and the complexity of its depth.
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Yes, when God do NOT want us to consume flesh of swine he said clearly in the scriptures for God don’t want people to trespass against Him which will lead them to His Wrath, why is it not the same for the single most important doctrine regarding who God is? It must be simple, unequivocal, unambiguous because the salvation of the entire human race hinges on it.
Hellfire is no joke.
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@ Paulus
What’s confusing about one God?
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I believe in one God. You will need to expand on tawheed. Go ahead.
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@Paulus
Explain Tawheed?
Okay .
God is one.
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You just explained trinitarianism too.
Try again.
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@Paulus
In case you didn’t notice I didn’t go into the “compound one” or “three persons one being” or
“God the father, God the Son and God the spirit” routine.
God is one. Period.
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Hi all
Listen since the 10th century have been say the scriptures have been corrupted yet want to quote out of them as truth.
Paul you are great example of this at speakers corner you quote Acts 2:22 yet you dont mention verse 23.
You can’t have your cake and eat it either the word is corrupted or it not.
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When Jude in the NT quotes Enoch, was he quoting a corrupted source with some truth or was he quoting completely authentic prophetic scripture?
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Scholars think it is the latter
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So far there’ve not been any answer for the question, and its implications.
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Hi Fawaz
you asked
When Jude in the NT quotes Enoch, was he quoting a corrupted source with some truth or was he quoting completely authentic prophetic scripture?
Deut 33:1-2 Who is Moses quoting? is that authentic or from a corrupted source.
What Enoch are you referring?
1. Enoch the son of Cain.
2. Enoch the son of Jared.
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Paul,
Jesus was the only human in history to be sinless; therefore His sacrifice was a justice atonement in the place of human sinners from all the nations.
Jesus was also God, and that power rose Him from the dead.
14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the [o]descendant of Abraham.
17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
18 For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.
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Ken, learn the mercy of God – he does not need a human sacrifice to forgive.
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Hebrews 2:14-18 says otherwise – “He had (necessary ) to be made like His brethren” (becoming flesh and sharing in flesh and blood), in order to be the propitiation for sins.
The progressive flow of the OT shows this – the animal sacrifices in the OT to the human Messiah Suffering Servant (Daniel 9:24-27; Isaiah 53:1-2; see “cut off” in Daniel 9:26 and Isaiah 53:8) and Jesus’ own words in Mark 10:45/Matthew 20:28 and at the Lord’s Supper – “this is the blood of the new covenant for the forgiveness of sins” (Matthew 26:28 and Luke 22:20; Mark 14:24; 1 Corinthians 11:25)
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Wrong. No Jew prior to the rise of Christianity ever expected the messiah to die as an atonement for the worlds sins. It is an utterly new belief invented by Christians.
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Hi Paul
You’re wrong…Its called revelation
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
I suppose Isaiah didn’t understand what was meant by “when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin”
What about the gospels?
Who is it that sends prophets? Matthew says Jesus said its himself.
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
I suppose the High Priest didn’t know what he was talking about either.
What did he mean by “Son of the Blessed”
Mar 14:61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
Mar 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mar 14:63 Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?
And Paul adds this….
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
The 1st century Jews have an understanding of Jesus being a lot more than a man.
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All the first Christians were Jews and Jesus’ disciples – they understood Isaiah 53 to mean this; and Jesus’ own words in Mark 10:45/Matthew 20:28 and Lord’s supper passages prove this. (Matthew 26:28; Mark 14; Luke 22; 1 Cor. 11)
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In my view we have no extant writings from Jesus’s original 12 disciples.
But even if we did my point still stands.
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you cannot deny Matthew 20:28/ Mark 10:45 and Matthew 26:28 and Mark 14:24. Early scholarship is my side on this issue.
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this is irrelevant to my point.
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no it is not irrelevant. You cannot refute all the evidence I bring.
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yes it is. Don’t be disingenuous Ken.
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Also, Matthew 8:17 says Jesus is the fulfillment of Isaiah 53.
as does Acts 8:30-38 and I Peter 2:21-25 and other passages.
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irrelevant
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no; very relevant.
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DC you just ignored what i said.
No Jew prior to the rise of Christianity ever expected the messiah to die as an atonement for the world’s sins. This is a fact.
Jews interpreted the Isaiah passage as referring to Israel itself as the wider context makes clear.
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“the iniquity of us all was laid on Him” Isaiah 53:6 – “Him” is singular. Daniel 9:24-26 confirms this with Isaiah 53:8.
“if He (singular) would render Himself a guilt offering” (Isaiah 53:10)
All the first Christians were Jews and Jesus’ disciples – they understood Isaiah 53 to mean this; and Jesus’ own words in Mark 10:45/Matthew 20:28 and Lord’s supper passages prove this. (Matthew 26:28; Mark 14; Luke 22; 1 Cor. 11)
The Jews you are talking about are the apostates of Israel who crucified Jesus by forcing and manipulating Pilate to order His execution and the theology that they developed AFTER the first Jews understood the Scriptures properly. (Isaiah 52:13-15 and 53:1-12 and Daniel 9:24-27 and Psalm 22)
Jesus’ own words confirm this in Mark 10:45 and Matthew 26:28.
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“Him” is singular –
yes it is: the Servant of Yahweh = Israel. Read the wider context of Isaiah Ken.
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But Jesus Himself interpreted Isaiah 53 as about Himself – Mark 10:45 & Matthew 26:28
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irrelevant
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Also, Matthew 21:17-20 says Jesus Himself is the Servant of Yahweh in Matthew 12:17-21 (quoting Isaiah 42)
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irrelevant
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sorry, Matthew 12:17-21, not Matthew 21
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irrelevant
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Hi Paul
You said…
Jews interpreted the Isaiah passage as referring to Israel itself as the wider context makes clear.
Well in reading the verses of this chapter maybe you can answer a couple of questions.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
According to verse 6
1. Who are the sheep that have gone astray?
2. Who did the Lord lay the iniquity of everyone upon?
1 and 2 can’t both be Israel.
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your atomistic, non-contextual question is precisely the problem.
Who is the “Servant” of the Lord in Isaiah?
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Hi Paul
The questions are simple stop trying to be clever.
Who are the sheep and who is having the iniquity laid upon them? If you can’t answer it just say so instead of trying to sound eloquent.
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you are obviously a twat. Go and play with your toys
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Ken,
“But Jesus Himself interpreted Isaiah 53 as about Himself – Mark 10:45 & Matthew 26:28”
Did Jesus himself write Mark and Matthew…or did an unknown author write that interpretation?
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2 eyewitnesses of Jesus’ ministry- Matthew and Peter (Mark wrote Peter’s sermons and testimony)
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It’s very obvious that the authors of gospels were struggling when they wrote the gospels in some extent because of the narratives ( oral ones/documents) about Jesus in one hand, and the sound of Paul’s teachings that they had known on the other hand. Look for example how the series of events go in Matthew 26! They don’t make sense!
Why would Jesus take guards with him even with swords ! He even prayed so passionately to God to save him!
Those authers whom we have no clue about them created a biased scenario not an authentic one.
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Not only did he pray for god to save him, he did not even seem to know WHY he was being crucified in the first place, saying, “My God, My God, WHY Have You Forsaken Me?” Matt.27:46
This means two things:
1- Jesus was not the All-Knowing God, as he did not know WHY he was being murdered, and he was praying to his God to save him.
2- The Mission of Jesus was never to “die for our sin” otherwise he would have known WHY he was being crucified.
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that was Hebrews 2:14-18
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When Jude in the NT quotes Enoch, was he quoting a corrupted source with some truth or was he quoting completely authentic prophetic scripture?
Scholars think it is the latter
Most scholars I have read see it as the former, that the whole writing is not inspired, but had some truth in it.
Like Paul quoting from Greek pagan poets and philosophers that had some aspect of truth in their writings. (Acts 17:28 and Titus 2:12)
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Hi Eric Bin Kasam
you said this…Yes, when God do NOT want us to consume flesh of swine he said clearly in the scriptures for God don’t want people to trespass against Him which will lead them to His Wrath,
What scriptures are you referring to? Are you talking about the Torah? I’m sure that is the same scriptures that says you can’t eat camel…and prophet Muhammad says you can!
So what we have here is someone changing what God’s law says.
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In his mercy to us Allah gave authority to his Prophet and Messenger, Muhammad (Sws) to abate the Law of the Torah, which is why Islamic Law is much easier to follow that Jewish Halakha. One of the many reasons Prophet Muhammad is called a, “Mercy to Mankind.”
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Ken, when you say the human being who died on the cross, you’re telling us the following :
1) Jesus is a created being.
2) God doesn’t die.
Do you agree?
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The Son (John 17:5), the Word (John 1:1, 1:14), from all eternity, is not a created being. But He became a human, He added a human nature with a human body to Himself. (John 1:14; Philippians 2:5-8)
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This if course is not what the other gospels teach; they say he was created at his conception in Mary. No preexistence.
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“He added a human nature” !
Then you’re telling us the following :
1) God didn’t become a man. He just added that man to himself.
2) That man is a created being. You have to admit this, Ken.
3) The one whom God sent to die for your sins didn’t die eventually. He just left that created being( i.e. Jesus) to die on the cross.
Do you agree?
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Oh dear …
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Ken Temple is a heretic.
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The virgin birth of Jesus in Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke chapters 1-2 explains the how and when the Son entered into history and space and became a man – explains the how and when of John 1:1, 1:14, Philippians 2:5-8 and John 17:5.
All the passages beautifully harmonize together.
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No they do not. Matt and all clearly teach that Jesus came into existence in Mary’s womb. No preexistence mentioned at all. John is the last gospel to be written and it uniquely in the gospels suggests preexistence.
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“All the passages beautifully harmonize together.”
Don’t lie upon yourself . You know that your bible is contradictory book. It’s more than obvious, which is the normal result when you smash passages were written independently.
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Who are the sheep and who is having the iniquity laid upon them?
good question
Isaiah 53:6
All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
and who did the Suffering Servant Justify?
As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.
Isaiah 53:11-12
Who did the Suffering Servant justify?
Who did the Suffering Servant bear the sins for?
Good questions!
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Ken,
“I will allot Him (((a portion))) with the great”
Do you realize the implications behind this verse ?
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could you explain?
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metaphoric language for His victory and gaining followers and authority again. matthew 28:18; Psalm 2:1-12 – verse 8, “ask of Me and I will give the nations as Your inheritance, the very ends of the earth as Your possession”
Ephesians 1:9-11 – the summing up of all things in Christ, things in heaven and things on earth
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Sure!
I don’t imagine that God would be given something, in the first place for God has already everything.
Also, that something which will be given has been described as ( a portion) while God has ((( all ))) the glory not just a (((portion))).
Finally, (with the great) implies that many have already that ( a portion) before that servant, and that servant will be just with them.
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Talking about Christ’s victory gaining “all authority and power” again after His resurrection (matthew 28:18; Philippians 2:8-11) and the gaining of souls in salvation and dominion over everything, after humbling Himself for 33 years, etc.
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Abdullah says God doesn’t receive anything. He just proved Allah can’t be god. Note the following:
Allah needs help
The Quran further states that Allah requires the help of his followers:
who were expelled from their habitations without right, except that they say ‘Our Lord is God.’ Had God not driven back the people, some by the means of others, there had been destroyed cloisters and churches, oratories and mosques, wherein God’s Name is much mentioned. Assuredly God will help him who helps Him — surely God is All-strong, All-mighty. S. 22:40
O believers, if you help God, He will help you, and confirm your feet. S. 47:7
In fact, according to the Islamic scripture true believers are those who help both Allah and his messenger!
It is for the poor emigrants, who were expelled from their habitations and their possessions, seeking bounty from God and good pleasure, and helping God AND His Messenger; those — they are the truthful ones. S. 59:8
Allah needs money
To make matters worse, Allah actually needs to borrow money from people!
Allah promises that if anyone loans him money he will not only pay that person back, but will actually pay back even more than what he initially received:
Who is he that will lend God a good loan, and He will multiply it for him manifold? God grasps, and outspreads; and unto Him you shall be returned. S. 2:245
Who is he that will lend to God a good loan, and He will multiply it for him, and his shall be a generous wage? S. 57:11
[Sidenote: If Allah pays back more than is loaned to him… doesn’t this mean that Allah believes in interest or usury, something which is condemned in Islam?]
Such statements caused the Jews of Muhammad’s time to conclude that Allah must be rather poor if he needs to take a loan from his creatures. In fact, the Quran even records their reply to Muhammad asking his followers to help his god out by borrowing him some money:
God has heard the saying of those who said, ‘Surely God is poor, and we are rich.’ We shall write down what they have said, and their slaying the Prophets without right, and We shall say, ‘Taste the chastisement of the burning — S. 3:181
Here is what noted Muslim expositor Ibn Kathir wrote in respect to this text:
Allah Warns the Idolators
Sa`id bin Jubayr said that Ibn `Abbas said, “When Allah’s statement…
(Who is he that will lend to Allah a goodly loan so that He may multiply it to him many times) [2:245] was revealed, the Jews said, ‘O Muhammad! Has your Lord become poor SO THAT HE ASKS HIS SERVANTS TO GIVE HIM A LOAN?’ Allah sent down…
(Indeed, Allah has heard the statement of those (Jews) who say: ‘Truly, Allah is poor and we are rich!’) [3:181].”
This Hadith was collected by Ibn Marduwyah and Ibn Abi Hatim. (Tafsir Ibn Kathir; capital emphasis ours)
More to follow.
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Allah has to purchase his own creatures
According to the Quran, the entire creation belongs to Allah (Q. 2:116; 5:17; 23:84-89). This means that every single human being already belongs to him and that their life is a gift which they receive from Allah.
Yet, astonishingly, the Muslim scripture refers to Allah purchasing the believers (which he supposedly already owns) by giving them paradise in exchange for their lives and goods:
God has BOUGHT from the believers their selves and their possessions against the gift of Paradise; they fight in the way of God; they kill, and are killed; that is a promise binding upon God in the Torah, and the Gospel, and the Koran; and who fulfils his covenant truer than God? So rejoice in the bargain you have made with Him; that is the mighty triumph. S. 9:111
Do Muslims really want us to believe that this is a very eloquent and majestic way of speaking of Allah’s dealings with his slaves? Does it even make sense to claim that the creator and possessor of all things has to buy his own creation? How can Allah purchase anything when he is supposed to already own everything which exists?
This leads us to our next point.
Allah needs property
Not only does Allah borrow from people, and purchases them, he even inherits from them!
It is We who give life, and make to die, and it is We who are the inheritors. S. 15:23
Surely We shall inherit the earth and all that are upon it, and unto Us they shall be returned. S. 19:40
and We shall inherit from him that he says, and he shall come to Us alone. S. 19:80
In fact, another one of Allah’s names is even called the inheritor!
Al-Wârith: The Inheritor
The One who inherits and continues after all others have ceased to be; thus all returns to Him. He is the true owner of all.
Al-Warith is one of the Ninety-Nine Names. (Bewley, The Divine Names)
How ironic that the being whom Muslims boast is self-sufficient needs help, asks for a loan, purchases and even inherits from what is supposed to be his very own creation!
The Jews further reasoned that Allah must be very cheap and stingy with his wealth since he would rather have his creatures spend on him than he spend on them:
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Allah is ever thankful and grateful
The Quran says that Allah is an extremely thankful and grateful deity:
If you lend to God a good loan, He will multiply it for you, and will forgive you. God is All-thankful (shakoorun), All-clement, S. 64:17
[Sidenote: Though this is a different issue, the above verse indicates that people can buy Allah’s forgiveness (“and will forgive you”) by giving him enough money. This is both unfair and unjust since this means that the rich can buy their way out of hell whereas the poor are stuck with the bill, so to speak. A rich person can avoid the punishment of hell-fire by simply borrowing Allah loads of money. This text also discriminates the poor (albeit implicitly) since it suggests that the rich are better in the sight of Allah because of the fact they have more money which they can loan to their creator. And if Allah himself deems them to be better then what kind of attitude will/should his followers adopt towards the rich and poor?]
And they shall say, ‘Praise belongs to God who has put away all sorrow from us. Surely our Lord is All-forgiving, All-thankful (shakoorun), S. 35:34
that He may pay them in full their wages and enrich them of His bounty; surely He is All-forgiving, All-thankful (shakoorun). S. 35:30
God will certainly pay them their due wages, and of his bounty increase them: for He is Gracious, Grateful. Rodwell
that He may pay them their hire, and give them increase of His grace; verily, He is forgiving, grateful. Palmer
This makes sense in light of the fact that Allah needs and asks for help, borrows money, and inherits property from his creatures. Allah would obviously be thankful to all those who choose to help him, loan him money, and were/are kind enough to make him the heir of their estate. In fact, it would actually be surprising if the Muslim scripture didn’t say that Allah was/is extremely appreciative and grateful for all the help and monetary support that he received and continues to receive from his creatures.
Allah is also grateful and thankful to all those who decide to obey and worship him:
Surely the Safa and the Marwa are among the signs appointed by Allah; so whoever makes a pilgrimage to the House or pays a visit (to it), there is no blame on him if he goes round them both; and whoever does good spontaneously, then surely Allah is Grateful (shakirun), Knowing. S. 2:158 Shakir
That is the good tidings God gives to His servants who believe and do righteous deeds. Say: ‘I do not ask of you a wage for this, except love for the kinsfolk; and whosoever gains a good deed, We shall give him increase of good in respect of it. Surely God is All-forgiving, All-thankful (shakoorun). S. 42:23
What would God do with chastising you if you are thankful (shakartum), and believe? God is All-thankful (shakiran), All-knowing. S. 4:147
In case a Muslim wishes to argue that shakur does not mean thankful or grateful, here is how one lexical source defines this term:
Shiin-Kaf-Ra = to give thanks, be grateful, realize or acknowledge one’s favour, praise. shukrun – giving thanks, gratitude. shaakirun – one who gives thanks or is grateful, appreciated and bountiful in reward.
shakuurun – thankful. Sometimes a distinction is made between this word and shaakirun. The former is used to denote a person who is thankful for little or for nothing, the latter grateful for large favours.
mashkuurun – gratefully accepted, acceptable.
shakara vb. (1)
perf. act. 4:147, 14:7, 27:40, 54:35
impf. act. 2:52, 2:56, 2:185, 2:243, 3:123, 5:6, 5:89, 7:10, 7:58, 8:26, 10:60, 12:38, 14:37, 16:14, 16:78, 22:36, 23:78, 27:19, 27:40, 27:40, 27:73, 28:73, 30:46, 31:12, 31:12, 32:9, 35:12, 36:35, 36:73, 39:7, 40:61, 45:12, 46:15, 56:70, 67:23
impv. 2:152, 2:172, 16:114, 29:17, 31:12, 31:14, 34:15
n.vb. 25:62, 34:13, 76:9
pcple. act. 2:158, 3:144, 3:145, 4:147, 6:53, 6:63, 7:17, 7:144, 7:189, 10:22, 16:121, 21:80, 39:66, 76:3, 17:19
pcple. pass. 76:22
shakur n.m. (adj.) 14:5, 17:3, 31:31, 34:13, 34:19, 35:30, 35:34, 42:23, 42:33, 64:17 (Project Root List; underline emphasis ours)
In light of the foregoing, would it shock the readers to discover that one of the ninety-nine names of Allah happens to be the ever-thankful?
Ash-Shakûr; Ash-Shâkir: The Ever-Thankful
The Rewarder of Thankfulness. He repays people for their good actions. He gives a large reward for few works; He in whose estimation few works performed by His slaves increase and who multiplies His rewards to them.
Ash-Shakur is one of the Ninety-Nine Names. (Bewley, The Divine Names)
We didn’t think so.
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“metaphoric language for His victory and gaining followers and authority again”
In which base did you say that?, and why don’t you accept jews’ saying when they say that the whole passage is a metaphoric about the children of Israel and their suffering?
Also, if we say it’s metaphor, why is it used this term ( a portion)?
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because Jesus the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 purchased all the believers from all nations – Revelation 5:9 – they are part of His portion that He redeemed back – His church – Ephesians 5:25; John 6:37-44, His sheep – John 10:16 and His people – Acts 20:28 – “purchased with the blood of God” – “the church of God, which He obtained with His blood” – shows Jesus is God. Also His sovereignty over all things also – Matthew 28:18-20; Ephesians 1:8-11; Colossians 3:10-11; Ephesians 1:22-23. Together they are His portion, His “all in all”.
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Sam,
“The Quran further states that Allah requires the help of his followers”
Allah (sw) requests many things from the believers for their own benefits. Allah (sw) doesn’t need anything.
“O mankind, you are those in need of Allah , while Allah is the Free of need, the Praiseworthy.” QT 35:15
” Whoever does righteousness – it is for his [own] soul; and whoever does evil [does so] against it. And your Lord is not ever unjust to [His] servants.” QT 41:46.
Again, Quran is not your bible you can play with. Drinking the seawater is much easier.
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“because Jesus the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53”
This is a typical circular reasoning!
Moreover, let’s read Gill’s Exposition about that verse:
“these are the words of God the Father, promising Christ that he shall have as great a part or (((portion assigned him as any of the mighty monarchs of the world))) ” Gill’s Exposition.
The Father was promising ??? Does Jesus need a promise ???
As any of the mighty mnoarchs of the world ???
This is for sure is not God.
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Hi Ibn Issam
You said this…
his mercy to us Allah gave authority to his Prophet and Messenger, Muhammad (Sws) to abate the Law of the Torah, which is why Islamic Law is much easier to follow that Jewish Halakha. One of the many reasons Prophet Muhammad is called a, “Mercy to Mankind.”
Can you quote for me where Allah says that to Muhammad in the Quran and also where Allah says he changes the law of Torah?
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DC,
Allah gave authority to Prophet Muhammad (sws) to establish his Religion – Islam. Included in this was the authority to establish God’s divinely ordained Law on earth –Islamic Law, of which the primary objective is Mercy first and foremost, and also Justice among other things (Islamic law itself is a large topic which I cannot fully cover here). The Qur’an was revealed subsequent to the prior revelations, and as such it naturally supersedes them. Therefore, the Law that issues from Islamic Jurisprudence takes precedence.
While certain aspects of the previous Law may have been eased and abated or even eliminated, the core precepts of God’s Divine Law remains pure, unaltered and in effect.
The reason that the Law of the Torah has been abated or eased by the Mercy of Allah is to make it easier for us to follow and abide by the laws. It is well known that there are 613 Mitzvah according to Jewish Law, while thankfully, there are far less commandments in Islam for us to abide by. The laws which have been abated were too legalistic and not centrally related to guidance along the straight path in order to attain salvation. For instance, Muslims do not have to worry about not tearing a piece of toilet paper on Saturday’s because it is considered “work” and work is forbidden on the Sabbath according to Jewish Law. This is a non-issue in Islamic Law. The more important injunctions such as the Ten Commandments of Moses are preserved and contained within the Qur’an. Therefore the previously established law of the Torah, stands ABSORBED into Islamic Law.
So it is through the authority which God bestowed on Prophet Muhammad as the messenger of Islam, that the Law was ultimately abated. Although many people don’t make the connection, this is one of the many, many, reasons why Prophet Muhammad is considered a “Mercy to all Mankind.”
There is much more to say on the issue, but this is my short answer.
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Hi Ibn Issam
You are quoting any sura’s where Allah commands Prophet Muhammad to change the law. In the book of Leviticus 11:4-7 says that you shall not eat camel and the pig.
So basically Muhammad changed it to suit Muslims because you can’t show a Koranic text to prove your position, because it didn’t come from Allah.
What is burdensome about not eating camel?
Prophet Muhammad lays claim to following the previous men of God Abraham and Moses but to be honest he has created his religion with a bit of varnish of the things the pagans of Arabia were doing.
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Based my above answer, we do not need an explicit verse in the Qur’an to make the assertion that the harsh and burdensome Law of the Torah was abated through Islam.
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DC,
Why don’t you rephrase your question and ask, “What is so burdensome about not eating a pig.” If you think that dietary laws are not burdensome at all, then you should stop eating pig, otherwise you are simply highlighting your double standards when it comes to Islamic dietary Laws. There are sensible reasons why Camels are Halal, while pigs are Haraam and most importantly this is in the wisdom of Allah.
In regard to your unoriginal comment about paganism, it is laughable to see Christians criticizing Islam of paganism, when Christianity is proven to be full of paganistic, traditions, practices, customs, celebrations etc.
Abraham and Ishmael established many of the rites of Islam, and over the course of many long years, their Ishmaelite descendants back-slided into Idolatry and paganism until the advent Prophet Muhammad who re-established and purified these ancient rites. This is comparable to how the some of the descendants of Prophet Noah, backslid into paganism, just as the father of Abraham himself, Terah/Azhar who was descended from Noah was a pagan. Abraham rejected idolatry and returned to the pure religion of Noah who preached God’s oneness (Tawheed), much like Prophet Muhammad much later, in turn, returned his people to the pure teaching of Abraham.
According to your logic, would you say that Abraham who came after Noah was pagan, simply because there was an intervening period of paganism in between? The answer is clearly no, and if you are to be consistent then the same goes for Islam.
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where in the koran does Allah allow Muhammad to change the law in regards to eating unclean meats.
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by the way you assume every Christian eats pork, whats funny about that is the fact is that it was laws given to Jews not Gentiles but somehow
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I explained above in regard to Qur’an, and authorization for abatement of the Law.
In regard to the Law given to the Jews/Gentiles, you will surely agree that Jesus and Paul disagreed about the continuing validity of the Law. See Galatians verses gospel of Matthew. This is well known and agreed upon in biblical scholarship. It is clear to anyone who looks closely that Paul rejected the Law in contraindication of the teachings of Jesus and his brother Apostle James who both upheld the Law..
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Hi Ibn Issam
Can you explain.what Paul rejected quote the text or the law you are referring to
What scholars are you speaking about at least name one
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DC,
Paul of Tarsus, abolished the Law in its entirety in his letter to Ephesians 2:15. There are other verses as well. Also Paul’s teachings are called the “Gospel of Freedom” from the Law. Paul’s teachings were diametrically opposed to the teachings of Jesus the Apostle James and the Jerusalem Church. The disagreement between James and Paul is clear to see and plays out on the pages of the Bible for all to see. No amount of Christian apologetics, can ever cover up the disagreement and contradiction.
I would direct you to critical scholars in mainstream universities, not the fundamentalist devotional traditionalist “scholars” who only seek to establish their own presuppositions.
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Hi Ibn Issam
I dont think you read the bible properly in regards to Paul and the law, whose knowledge is far greater than yours.
Remember who is doing the abolishing here!
The apostle Paul says Jesus did it by his work on the cross and one of the reasons is to bring the Jews and Gentiles together as one people in him.
You dont believe there was a crucifixion and death so you would never understand either.
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Turning the Tables: Can Any Muhammadan Explain How Can Allah Die and the Quran be Destroyed?
Since Muslims always bring up the issue of God dying as a way of showing Christians the absurdity of their believing that Christ is God who died, I have decided to turn the tables on them in order to give them a taste of their own medicine.
According to the Quran, every soul (nafs) shall necessarily taste death and shall be judged for what it has done:
But how will it be, when We gather them for a day whereon is no doubt, and EVERY SOUL (kullu nafsin) shall be paid in full what it has earned, and they shall not be wronged? S. 3:25 Arberry
The day EVERY SOUL (kullu nafsin) shall find what it has done of good brought forward, and what it has done of evil; it will wish if there were only a far space between it and that day. God warns you that you beware of Him; and God is gentle with His servants. S. 3:30 Arberry
EVERY SOUL (kullu nafsin) shall taste of death; you she surely be paid in full your wages on the Day of Resurrection. Whosoever is removed from the Fire and admitted to Paradise, shall win the triumph. The present life is but the joy of delusion. S. 3:185 Arberry
The day that EVERY SOUL (kullu nafsin) shall come disputing in its own behalf; and EVERY SOUL (kullu nafsin) shall be paid in full for what it wrought, and they shall not be wronged. S. 16:111 Arberry
EVERY SOUL (kullu nafsin) shall taste of death; then unto Us you shall be returned. S. 29:57 Arberry
The Quran also testifies that Allah himself is/possesses a soul (nafs):
And mention when God said: O Jesus son of Mary! Hadst thou said to humanity: Take me and my mother to yourselves other than God? He would say: Glory be to Thee! It is not for me that I say what there is no right for me to say. If I had been saying it, then, surely, Thou wouldst have known it. Thou hast known what is in my soul (fee nafsi) and I know not what is in THY SOUL (fee nafsika). Truly, Thou, Thou alone art Knower of the unseen. S. 5:116 Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar
Say: To whom belongs whatsoever is in the heavens and the earth? Say: To Allah. He has prescribed for HIS SOUL (ala nafsihi) mercy, that He may bring you all together to the Day of Resurrection whereof there is no doubt. Those who ruin their souls (anfusahum) will not believe. S. 6:12
For I have chosen you for MY SOUL (linafsi). S. 20:41
This, therefore, means that Allah himself shall taste death and be judged for what he has earned. Note how this works out logically:
A. Every soul must necessarily taste death and be judged for all it has done.
B. Allah is/possesses a soul.
C. Therefore, Allah must necessarily taste death and be judged for all he has done.
Now the question arises how can Allah die when he is supposed to be God, and therefore a self-subsisting and ever living Being? And after he is dead who is going to give him life again? It cannot be Allah who will resurrect himself since he will be dead and therefore will no be longer alive. And if he is no longer alive then he will no longer possess the consciousness or cognizance to realize that he needs to raise himself back to life.
Moreover, how can Allah give an account for what he has done when he is supposed be the judge of all creation? Will Allah judge himself, or will someone else be his judge?
That’s not all. Orthodox Muslim theology teaches that the Quran is the eternal, uncreated speech of Allah, being one of his essential attributes:
35. The Qur’an is the Word of God that emanated from Him without modality in its expression. He sent it down to His messenger as a revelation. The believers accept it as such literally. They are certain it is, in reality, the Word of God, the Sublime and Exalted.
36. Unlike human speech, it is eternal and uncreated. (The Creed of Imam Al-Tahawi (Al-Aqidah al-Tahawiyyah), translated, annotated and introduced by Hamza Yusuf [Zaytuna Institute, 2007], p. 54; bold emphasis ours)
73. We do not argue about the Qur’an. Rather, we testify that it is the Word of the Lord of the universe as revealed through the Trustworthy Spirit, who taught it to the paragon of messengers, Muhammad. It is the Word of God, the Sublime and Exalted. No mortal speech compares to it, and we do not say it is created. (Ibid., p. 64; bold emphasis ours)
And yet we know that many have destroyed the Quran, either by ripping it apart (tearing it to shreds),
It is as though what We have sent down is on those who make divisions therein. Those that tear the Quran into shreds. S. 15:90-91 Mohammad Shafi http://islamawakened.com/quran/15/st59.htm
Or by burning it, which is what the third Muslim caliph ordered to be done to all the Qurans which did not agree with his own version of it:
Narrated Anas bin Malik: Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur’an, so he said to ‘Uthman, “O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before.” So ‘Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, “Send us the manuscripts of the Qur’an so that we may compile the Qur’anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you.” Hafsa sent it to ‘Uthman. ‘Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, ‘Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and ‘AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. ‘Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, “In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur’an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur’an was revealed in their tongue.” They did so, and when they had written many copies, ‘Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. ‘Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur’anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, BE BURNT. Said bin Thabit added, “A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur’an and I used to hear Allah’s Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): ‘Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.’ (33.23) (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book, Book 61, Number 510 http://searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=61&translator=1&start=0&number=510)
This means that human beings can and have burned, and therefore destroyed, one of the core, essential attributes of Allah himself! Again, note the logic of this:
A. The Quran is the uncreated speech of Allah, and therefore one of his necessary attributes.
B. The Quran can and has been destroyed by men, such as we find in the case of the third caliph Uthman who burnt the Qurans that were circulating at that time.
C. Therefore, men have the capacity to destroy, to burn, one of the eternal attributes of Allah.
Once again, how can a necessary characteristic of Allah be destroyed without this impacting a profound change in his essential being? And since it can be destroyed doesn’t this nullify Allah’s omnipotence and immutability? After all, for finite creatures to be able to burn or destroy a core attribute of Allah means that Allah was powerless to stop them, and further shows that Allah’s nature can and did experience a profound change since he went from having a specific attribute to no longer having it for a period of time.
With that said, can any Muhammadan answer these questions without arguing in a circle or denying the plain reading of their primary sources?
Related Articles
Soul-Man: Shall Allah Taste Death According to the Qur’an? http://answeringislam.net/authors/rogers/allah_soul.html
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“I know not what is in THY SOUL (fee nafsika). ” فی نفسک
from Surah 5:116
Interesting that Allah has a nafs نفس
وَإِذْ قَالَ اللَّهُ يَا عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ أَأَنتَ قُلْتَ لِلنَّاسِ اتَّخِذُونِي وَأُمِّيَ إِلَٰهَيْنِ مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ ۖ قَالَ سُبْحَانَكَ مَا يَكُونُ لِي أَنْ أَقُولَ مَا لَيْسَ لِي بِحَقٍّ ۚ إِن كُنتُ قُلْتُهُ فَقَدْ عَلِمْتَهُ ۚ تَعْلَمُ مَا فِي نَفْسِي وَلَا أَعْلَمُ مَا فِي نَفْسِكَ ۚ إِنَّكَ أَنتَ عَلَّامُ الْغُيُوبِ
Sam makes a pretty good point:
Note how this works out logically:
A. Every soul must necessarily taste death and be judged for all it has done. (see all the verses that say this)
B. Allah is/possesses a soul.
C. Therefore, Allah must necessarily taste death and be judged for all he has done.
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Ken, as I’ve said to your brother Sam that drinking the seawater is much easier.
nafs of Allah is his essence, and his essence is not like anything from his creation. In fact, any attribute of Allah is not like anything from his creation. Hearing of Allah is not like our hearing although we all can hear, for example.
All of us including Jesus will taste the death “And there will remain the Face of your Lord, Owner of Majesty and Honor”
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Temple and Shamoun: A.Every soul must necessarily taste death and be judged for all it has done. (see all the verses that say this)B.Allah is/possesses a soul.
C.Therefore, Allah must necessarily taste death and be judged for all he has done.
There’s just one problem. ‘There is nothing like unto Allah’.
For your argument to work, the Nafs of God and Nafs of man have to be the same. Since they are not the same, what applies to man doesn’t apply to God.
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KMAK perfectly illustrates what Islam does a person’s brain and reasoning faculties.
To begin with, it is irrelevant whether Allah’s soul is unlike any other soul since the Quranic verses clearly state that this applies to EVERY SINGLE SOUL WHICH EXISTS . It does not qualify it by saying every other soul, or many or most souls, or only those souls that are like each other.
Secondly, to say that Allah’s soul is unlike any other soul says nothing since this is true of every other soul, i.e., my soul is not like your soul, nor is it like any other human soul, which is why human beings are all different. A dog’s soul is not like a human soul, and a soul of a monkey is not the same as a soul of a lion, and the list can go on and on and on.
KMAK’s answer shows why he chooses to blindly follow Muhammad, since only someone whose integrity and reasoning faculties have been severely destroyed would be so foolish as to believe he was a true prophet.
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Sam said “It does not qualify it by saying every other soul, or many or most souls, or only those souls that are like each other. ”
It is indeed qualified in other verses which mentions Allah(swt) is Eternal. So, your argument is indeed faulty.
Firstly, To demand that every single clause or condition must be put in the same sentence is illogical. And the Bible certainly fails that test all over.
Secondly, The complete verse reads as below:
“Every soul will taste death, and you will only be given your [full] compensation on the Day of Resurrection. So he who is drawn away from the Fire and admitted to Paradise has attained [his desire]. And what is the life of this world except the enjoyment of delusion.”
Anyone in their right mind knows that the above verse is addressed to human beings and not God. But, people who believe they are guided by a Holy Spirit claims otherwise and insults other people of faulty reasoning and foolishness. Makes a good case for Christianity that.
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Hi Paul.
No they do not. Matt and all clearly teach that Jesus came into existence in Mary’s womb. No preexistence mentioned at all. John is the last gospel to be written and it uniquely in the gospels suggests preexistence.
That’s not what Matthew thought!
Mat 1:21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”
Mat 1:22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet:
Mat 1:23 “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us).
Verse 23 Immanuel means God with us
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‘Verse 23 Immanuel means God with us’
So?
The name was given to someone else in Isaiah 7:
Note that God with us
‘…shall eat curds and honey by the time he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16 For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted.’
Is this Yahweh?
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It will come as a shock to most people to learn that New Testament scholarship is broadly in agreement that the gospels of Matthew and Luke do not portray Jesus as preexistent and have no awareness of the notion of the Incarnation of God. In the light of Christian teaching about the origins of Jesus this is surprising as both gospels have extended birth narratives where such ideas would naturally be mentioned. Here is an extract from a recent academic discussion from Yale University.
Page 209 from the Conclusion of King and Messiah as Son of God: Divine, Human, and Angelic Messianic Figures in Biblical and Related Literature, by Adela Yarbro Collins and John J. Collins – both professors of biblical criticism and interpretation at Yale University.
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“conceived by the Holy Spirit”
“by the power of the Most Hight = God the Father”
these are terms the communicate the nature of the offspring is the nature of God Himself, same substance – homo-ousian.
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Hey Paul Who is the Immanuel of Isaiah 7? Are you saying there is more than one virgin who had a son?
As far I know Matthew 1:23 relates to Isaiah 7:14
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Surah 47:7
“O ye who believe! If ye help Allah, He will help you and will make your foothold firm.”
Sounds like these other verses, everything is dependent on you doing the loving and believing FIRST, then you get help from Allah.
If you love Allah, then Allah will love you. Qur’an Al Imran 3:31
Allah does not forgive those that ascribe partners to Allah; Allah only forgives who he wants to forgive. Surah 4:48
Allah does not love those who reject Faith, Âl ‘Imran 3:32
Allah does not love the arrogant, the vainglorious, an-Nisa’ “Women” 4:36
Allah does not love the ungrateful or wicked, al-Baqarah 2:276
Allah does not love transgressors, al-Baqarah 2:190
Allah does not love wrongdoers, Âl ‘Imran 3:57,140
In the Bible, it is the opposite in the sense that God gives grace first, then the sinner is able to respond, repent, believe, grow in holiness and goodness.
You don’t have the wonderful good news, that God helps and saves sinners first, changes them on the inside, then they are able to do good works. But your system is you have to work and do first, and then maybe Insha’Allah, you might make it to paradise, but you have no guarantee.
You have nothing like this good news in Islam.
Romans 5:6-11
6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
See also here, where another Muslim, “The Grandverbalizer19” admitted that greater love is when one dies for his enemies.
http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2010/08/muslim-admits-that-one-who-dies-for-his.html
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Ken,
The Biblical God does not love everyone. So I don’t know how the passages in the Qur’an is different from what you believe.
Leviticus 20:23
And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.
Psalm 5:5
The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Psalm 11:5
The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
Proverbs 6:16, 19
These six things doth the LORD hate … A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
Hosea 9:15
I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings.
Malachi 1:3
And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
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Ken said “In the Bible, it is the opposite in the sense that God gives grace first, then the sinner is able to respond, repent, believe, grow in holiness and goodness.”
“You don’t have the wonderful good news, that God helps and saves sinners first, changes them on the inside, then they are able to do good works. But your system is you have to work and do first, and then maybe Insha’Allah, you might make it to paradise, but you have no guarantee.”
—————————————————————————————————————————————
Our belief is different from yours. In the Bible as you believe, man is already condemned as a sinner from birth. That is not the case with Islam. In Islam, everyone is born pure. God has already given the gifts of free will, intellect and guidance (revelation) and also the promise of eternal Paradise. Now, it is upto us to use these gifts in the right way and then God will help us through the trials and tests.
Contrast it with the Christian doctrine, God already introduced the problem and then he tried to solve it many milleniums later by sacrificing his begotten son contradicting his own Law that he hates human sacrifice.
Your theology is so illogical, Ken. What is the point in receiving ‘wonderful good news’ when they are not true. Satan deceived our parents by promising that eating the fruit will simply give them eternal life. Now, Satan is deceiving Christians by promising that they are guaranteed paradise without work and efforts.
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If everyone is born pure, where does sin come from and how does it get into people’s hearts and minds later?
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Romans 5:6-11
Why choose Paul’s teachings which relates to the death of Christ at a specific point in human history ? What about the millions of people who lived before Christ set foot on the Earth. We have seen numerous example of God’s severe punishments in the OT. Why didn’t God just saved the sinners, and changed them from the inside before Christ as well ?
Kev said “See also here, where another Muslim, “The Grandverbalizer19” admitted that greater love is when one dies for his enemies.”
We don’t need empty words and theories that no one can follow. I would like to know if Sam Shamoun, Ken Temple, James White etc are willing to die for a Muslim.
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People before Christ:
see Genesis 15:6
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If everyone is born pure, where does sin come from and how does it get into people’s hearts and minds later?
We have a different understanding on sin. There is no specific ‘sin’ nature which God has put inside of us. God gave us the choice to either obey Him or disobey Him. The desires/needs of the heart are not sinful unless it crosses the boundaries set by God. The other reason to sin is falling for the temptations of Satan.
Ken said “People before Christ:see Genesis 15:6”
I was looking for an example from OT regarding your statement ‘God helps and saves sinners first, changes them on the inside, then they are able to do good works’
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If there is no sin nature inside of us; then where does the spirit of vengeance and hatred come from, and the arrogance and pride of feeling “dishonored” in front of family and society in Islamic societies and cultures, in honor killings, like the Pakistani Muslim in NY who cut his wife’s head off?
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Williams said it came from sin – look earlier in the thread; but what is sin and how does it reside in the human heart?
Is sin just an action, or is it a power/principle/law (like the law of gravity) within a human being?
What the Islamic principle of the Nafs Amareh نفس اماره ?
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Spirit of Vengeance – from an innate sense of justice. We long for justice. But, when we take matters into our hands, we disobey God and thus sins.
Hatred – comes from our innate sense of appreciating the good and rejecting evil.
Arrogance and pride of feeling “dishonored” – comes from society and culture and lack of understanding of God and this temporary worldly life.
“but what is sin and how does it reside in the human heart?”
I don’t know what Williams meant there. Sin, basically is any thought/action that violates any of the commandments of God. There are a multitude of reasons why people sin and you know that.
Nafs Amareh – I would put it as the capability of the ‘self’/’spirit’ to overpower intellect.
Why did Adam(as) and Eve(ra) sinned ? They had all the fruits of the garden available and God prohibited them from just one tree. Yet, Satan constantly whispered and deceived them into believing they would become eternal if they ate the fruit. At the same time, there was the desire inside the self of the human to want more (in this case eternal life).
As per Christianity, sin came into human heart AFTER Adam (as) and Eve(ra) sinned (If I’m not wrong). If that is the case, why did Adam(as)/Eve(ra) disobey God in the first place ?
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Hi Kmak
you said the following…There’s just one problem. ‘There is nothing like unto Allah’.really?
Muslim (2612) narrated that Abu Hurayrah said: The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “When any one of fights his brother, let him avoid the face, for Allah created Adam in His image.”
Ibn Abi ‘Aasim narrated in al-Sunnah (517) that Ibn ‘Umar said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Do not say ‘May Allaah deform your face’ [a form of cursing in Arabic], for the son of Adam was created in the image of the Most Merciful.”
What does the Hadith mean “for Allah created Adam in his image”
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Allah created Adam in His Image. This must mean Adam is omniscient, omnipotent, eternal, etc. Not really. Use your brain defendchrist.
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Hi Kmak
I’m sorry but you need to use your brain to answer the question…it is written your Hadith and so from the Islamic point of view what does ” Adam created in the image of God” what does that mean?
No one said anything about Adam being Omniscient that is your spin so please just answer the question I really want to know the Muslim view on this.
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