Matthew is virtually identical to Mark because the former used the latter as a source.
Regarding your point about the “rhetorical” nature of the passage in question, it seems to me to be a cop-out. I highly doubt that Jesus would have caused confusion about his alleged divinity just to protect the “rhetoric” of his statement about the end times, especially since the matter of his alleged divinity is the central tenet of Christianity.
Agreed, I respect Richard’s attempt to defend the passage because it is hard for Christians to explain. However, the passage shows Jesus’s ignorance about the hour. If the same sort of statement existed in the Quran about Allah(swt) then Christians would have the right to call us out. But it’s in the Bible and I think the Muslim criticism of Jesus lack of knowledge is fair and comes from a natural reading of the text. But I’m no scholar!
the christian god is identified as a person who has FULL access to the “divine mind”
The person says here on earth, I (person) don’t know the mind of my dad
That is 1 person speaking
so if this persons mind doesn’t know a simple thing like the day the world is going to end, then we must ask ,was the “divine mind” inaccessible? was it in disconnect mode? no more connection? Disabled? then jaysus the PERSON not only became human but “divine BRAINLESS”
if each person is “born” with properties which other persons lack (father “divine brain” knows things the other lacks), how can one divine nature give knowledge and no knowledge to persons who have full access to the same nature?
One of the things that really strikes me is how, in the Bible Jesus’ humanity in on full display but evidence of his alleged divinity is so lacking. What exactly did Jesus do or say to prove that he was divine? Why did he show his humanity time after time?
brother faiz, also , we see that the 1 person, 2 natures is said to have no power because of the unbelief of the ppl, yet yhwh in old t times was able to do miracles even in front of apostates and unbelievers. We can only conclude that 1 person, 2 natures lacking dunamis implies in its essence there is power failure.
so when your god says ” I am” then the human person is the one who is going to spout out ” I am” this would mean the divine mind and the human mind become wired together in order for the human mind to say ” I am”
so in one case you want the same person disconnecting and speaking through one nature ( the person is suppose to have divine mind INHERENT within him, so how was the divine mind not speaking when the human person was saying ” don’t know the mind of…..?) and in another case you need 1 person , SPEAKING through both NATURES when it speaks the words “I am…”
just a question
your god sees a piece of meat on the table and his human mind tells him to go ahead and eat it, not knowing it is unhealthy to eat
Since your god is 1 person, which mind does your god obey? the mind which is human which gives it false information about the meat or the divine mind? If human mind, what is the divine mind doing? Is it a personless mind? Is it functioning without a person? Is it separated from the person of jeeesus? what does the divine mind do while jeesus is going to eat bacteria infected flesh?
This was an interesting video. Most Trinitarian responses I have seen on this verse tend to be superficial. But you went deeper. Nonetheless, I have to say I am not convinced by your explanation.
I would like to cite this verse from the Bible ” Is no secret hidden from you?”[Ezekiel 28:3]
The context is that a human being (the ruler of Tyre) was claiming divinity. Ezekiel refutes his claim in several ways one of which is by asking the rhetorical question “Is there no secret hidden from you?’ This question presumes that for some one to be God , nothing can be hidden from them.
I don’t think this verse allows for a scenario where a God-man has secrets hidden from him because his God nature is not “communicated” to his human nature.
Thank you for your kind words, and for your response – a very interesting and strong response, if I may say so.
That’s a tricky one, and prima facie I feel the weight of your objection, but I do feel there are at least a couple of ways to resolve this problem:
1) The context talks about wisdom, not knowledge of certain facts. Jesus therefore can meet this challenge, because he is all wise (Ben Witherington III is good on Jesus as God’s wisdom, as is http://www.tektonics.org/jesusclaims/trinitydefense.php) in his perception of things and resolution of difficulties. To be all wise in wisely dealing with certain matters, including how to prepare for the end times, is not affected by one’s lack of certain knowledge about when the end will come.
2) Even if we say that omniscience rather than being all-wise is the issue here, Jesus can still say that in his divinity he knows all things, even if in his humanity he is unknowing of the last hour. The difference is that the king of Tyre presumably would not say this – he wouldn’t, to my knowledge, claim to have a hypostatic union. Therefore he can’t explain why he arrogates to himself divine grandeur, because he has no excuse for his unknowing, even though Jesus can legitimately explain his own lack of knowing due to union of human and divine natures.
3) If someone says in response to point 2 that ‘that’s an excuse!’, in a way it is, but some excuses are legitimate. The burden of proof would still be on Jesus elsewhere and in other ways, however, to express and demonstrate his divinity, and I believe he does. But to summarise above, the king of Tyre couldn’t make such an excuse, but Jesus could.
Excellent question of yours, that’s my best go at the moment of responding to it.
Can you clarify how you feel that Jesus demonstrated his divinity? That goes back to my earlier question. Why is Jesus’ humanity so blatantly obvious but his alleged divinity not so much?
“difference is that the king of Tyre presumably would not say this – he wouldn’t, to my knowledge, claim to have a hypostatic union”
Where did Jesus claim to have hypostatic union with the Father(God)? And yes it sounds like an overstretch excuse to me, its sad that Christians have to restore to this kind off mental gymnastic to defend Helenisctic/Roman doctrines in contradiction with Jesus monotheistic Jewish teachings.
“To be all wise in wisely dealing with certain matters, including how to prepare for the end times, is not affected by one’s lack of certain knowledge about when the end will come.”
then why is it necessary for you to believe that the father knows everything ? The father knows when the time is right for the day of judgement, is the choosing of the day linked to his wise knowledge?
“Jesus can still say that in his divinity he knows all things, even if in his humanity he is unknowing of the last hour.”
so tell me where does “in his divinity ” run off to? Where does the person with ” divine mind” run off too? How does the human person know it is fully god? how does the same person tell the same person that it is fully god and fully human yet fail to reveal the day of doom?
you are saying jesus the human can say he is fully god even in his humanity he is unknowing. what is this?
Why must all the persons in the trinitarian model be omniscient in relation to each other? Unitarians assume this but they cite no logical argument for it’s necessity.
Oh my goodness, Ignoramus! Did you really just ask such an asinine question?
In order for all three “persons” to be part of the so-called “Godhead”, they must be omniscient, because omniscience is a logical characteristic of God.
You guys are running out of excuses for your trinity, it would seem. 😉
Erasmouse, so are u saying that the leader in trinity called the father passes on knowledge to the son? so you worship an informed god? explain in logical fashion how divine nature can give knowledge and lack of knowledge when both persons have access to the same nature?
In God there may be different types of knowledge both changing and unchanging, as in human beings. Omniscience might apply to one but not to the other. So the Unitarian argument from omniscience fails.
I get you.so the person of jeezus grows in wisdom while the father does not
The person of Jesus have full access to the dads mind but only lacks certain knowledge ergo he cannot be coequal in knowledge. The person of Jesus feels and experiences stuff the father does not , like temptations and sexual thoughts. so changing and unchanging
Exactly brother Heath. If what Ignoramus is saying were true, then Jesus was probably not even sinless. Hence, his death would have served no purpose and humans would still be in their sins.
Because “experiential knowledge” doesn’t apply to an All-Powerful being. Moreover, in your trinitarian model, the persons of the trinity are supposed to be “co-equal”. Do I really need to review the trinity with you?
so your god or 1 person 2 natures was sleeping in a boat while storm was brewing and rocking his boat. Your god was sleeping, are you gonna tell me 1 person 2 natures was experiencing sleep like mortals? god then had the experience of being taken over by sleep? was this an ingredient added to the knowledge of god? Look, why did yhwh tell the pagans he does not eat and sleep when according to you he has eyes like man, ears like man and thinking like man? What was the point in refuting the pagans?
You are right, in trinitarian model for god to have EXPERIENTIAL knowledge is part of him and cannot be ruled out. So I as a human have to sleep but you have your god having experience sleep and feeling of it. Which makes me think if such experiential knowledge is permanently wired to his feelings in trinity.
how exactly does the human bit communicate and transfer the feeling of sleep and other bodily functions to the invisible person?
Do they become permanently wired to the feelings in trinity? Are they infinite?
Do you know the difference between unlimited and limited power? limited power is when a man commands the sun to stand still so he could do his job of killing. the sun and earth bear witness that jesus was created because jesus was benefitting from their power like every human does.your god needed the sun to exist . his mother needed the sun to exist. The son god may have practiced a limited miracle but he did not have control and power over every flood, storm, earthquake, weather change etc.your god was limited whereas the creator has POWER OVER everything that exists. You see, the creator don’t get rocked while calming a storm like your god was getting rocked while attempting to calm storm and Matthew who didn’t like the way marks jeesus calmed storm made few changes. There is difference between limited and unlimited.
First of All, Eid Mubarak for my muslim brothers. May Allah accept your deeds. This video, in fact, should remind us what a bless we are in because of Islam and the guidance of Allah. Thank God as He likes.
Richard,
Your answer is very very weak , and it doesn’t make any sense at all.
I almost swear by Allah(sw) that you yourself are not convinced by what you said.
For all fundamental christians,
Who said that if you gave your nonsense beliefs “philosophical” terms, they will be solved ?
When we say to christians that you worship 3 gods clearly as the sun, they merely answer us that’s called “trinity”!
When we say to christians that God cannot be perfect and imperfect in the same time, they merely answer us that’s called “hypostatic union” !
When we say to christians that you cannot be gods after the resurrection, they merely answer us that’s called ” Theosis ” !
Ok, God worships satan while he dances!
No …No! Do not ever try to object, muslims! That’s called “Satanic dancinsm of God”, which by the what doesn’t contradict God’s perfection & what God really is. Dhaaa!
God chose to “not exercise his divinity” ! What an answer!
Fear Allah! How could that be different from saying that God chose to not be God!? It’s really disturbing!
Be honest with yourself before to be honest with any one else
Do you really think that Jesus was walking around saying for his audience – in the 1st century, most of whom fishers, farmers, simple & illiterate people – that only the Father who knows that day so they can know what it means when God doesn’t exercise his divinity!? Do you really think that, Richard?
Remember! That only if we submitted that those people had already understood & gotten concepts such asTrinity & hypostatic union! However, we know all that has not been the case.
“no one knows the day” no ONE….. no ONE, Oh Jesus ! You have not known what ONE means for those who claim to be followers of your message!
QT 3:71
“O People of the Scripture, why do you confuse the truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know [it]? ”
QT 5:14-16
“O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book.
By which Allah guides those who pursue His pleasure to the ways of peace and brings them out from darknesses into the light, by His permission, and guides them to a straight path.
They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary. Say, “Then who could prevent Allah at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?” And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them. He creates what He wills, and Allah is over all things competent.”
My advice for you Richard, Ask Allah guidance. Ask Him as Jesus did!
to say GOd knows everything is just another way to say God sees everything. Here knowledge seems to be interchangeable with seeing . Gods sees/knows past , present and future and knows/sees the exact time d.o.j, exact day, exact month , exact year d.o.j begins. The second person in trinity cannot see the day it begins, inherent in his attribute is disconnect from future event. the second person is blind to d.o.j. to say he is exercising not seeing /not knowing implies that ricks pagan god is viewing inherent attribute like choosing. So god chooses to create when he likes, he chooses to forgive and punish when he wants, Christians are viewing inherent and permanent attributes as replaceable with lack of knowledge and seeing. On /off. we wonder why each person cannot experience this disconnect.
The context is Jesus the human jewish apocalyptic prophet makes prediction about the IMMINENT end of the existing order and arrival of God’s kingdom. As we know these predictions as presented in the Bible were wrong.
The Bible said God is not a man and God does not change. So, the incarnation and the 2 natures is clearly in Biblical. You are talking of ontology, eschatology, 2 natures, divine and human etc. that are from your head. It was not recorded in the Bible. This things are very important and must be recorded in the Bible but it came from your head. Richard. It is so bad. Jesus clearly said he does not know but the Father knows. We are talking of 2 things here. If each of them is God, then we have 2 Gods that amounts to polytheism punishable in hell fire, if one does not repent.
Lol, so then you worship a flawed god with imperfect knowledge and abilities, just like the pagans with their demigods. Your trinity is no different than Zeus, Shiva, Rama, Krishna, Odin, Thor etc. They all had experiential knowledge instead of infinite knowledge.
What do the pagan triplets use to.act love upon themselves? When.dad needs child to send his love and dad is object of his kids love, what is being used for a person to receive his own love?
“Lol, so then you worship a flawed god with imperfect knowledge and abilities, just like the pagans with their demigods. Your trinity is no different than Zeus, Shiva, Rama, Krishna, Odin, Thor etc. They all had experiential knowledge instead of infinite knowledge.”
Here is the funny thing bro, he doesn’t believe that his god is object of his own power, but while his god is feeling like a human while breathing oxygen, then his god is object of his own mercy.
so it is like god created the sun and then became subject to it because god was feeling cold.
Faiz, I guess when all you have to have do normally is quote a hadith or a scholar you are not used to having to furnish a reasoned argument. I sympathize with you.
The Islamic supremacist way to discuss a subject.
I make an assertion for which I offer no proof. If you cannot disprove it my assertion is true. End of argument.
How childish.
The Christian coward’s way to discuss a subject. Make empty statements with no proof and then distract from that failure by distracting and refusing to answer any question. End of argument. How childish.
I forgot to mention that any desperate explanation from christians to those so embarrassing passages is a result that christians already accept the deity of Jesus with no basis. We need to ask christians what makes you accept that idea in the first place to put yourself in this weak situation ?
Any sincere reader to those passages wouldn’t get a clue of those “philosophical” explanations that christians put in the mouth of Jesus.
quote :
Deuteronomy 13:2-7 makes it clear that if someone claims to be a prophet and tells us to follower other gods who our forefathers have not known, (i.e. jesus) we are NOT to follow that “prophet,” EVEN IF HE PERFORMS MIRACLES!
quote :
You wrote that resurrection belongs only to God. What do you make then of the fact that both Elijah and Elisha performed resurrections (1 Kings 17 and 2 Kings 4)?
quote :
1. G-d is explicitly commanding Israel not to worship Him in any form. (Deut 4:16)
2. G-d is explicitly commanding Israel to teach this to their children and their children’s children, even after they come to the land of Israel. (Deut 4:9-14)
So this isn’t just a “one time deal” command, Lion…This prohibition against form worship extends to this very day!
It is important to note that this is not simply explicit to “man made forms.” Did G-d create Adam, the first man? Yes…But WOULD G-d appear in the form of Adam? Of course not! Same thing with the “first lizard,” or the “first fish.” How do we know this? Deut 4:16! We are not to worship G-d in ANY FORM.
Likewise, your jesus was a man. Your jesus was a form. Hashem explicitly forbids Israel from worshipping Him in ANY FORM.
Thus, your jesus cannot be “god in the flesh.” On the contrary, your jesus is not Hashem. Hashem clearly states that it is idolatry to worship Him in any form. Thus, your worship of jesus is idolatry.
Also keep in mind that the “sun, the moon, and the whole host of heaven,” were not “man made” either, so please do not make the pitiful argument that your jeezer is immune to this prohibition because he is supposedly “uncreated.” (Which you have no means of proving.) A form is a form is a form!
At the end of the day, Deut 4:9-19 what we are to go by. If you wish to eisegetically abuse scripture and assume that “let us make man in our image” refers to your jeezer, then that’s your idolatrous prerogative.
G-d gave Israel explicit instructions not to worship Him in ANY FORM. Deut 4:9-19 isn’t going away…Sorry!
worship host of heaven………..
interesting that you should bring up Joshua 5 and the supposed “worship” of this “captain of the Lord’s HOST” who you claim to be the jeezer.
Did you ever think to check Deuteronomy 4:19 and how the WHOLE HOST OF HEAVEN is prohibited from being worshiped by G-d Himself?!
Deut 4:19. And lest you lift up your eyes to heaven, and see the sun, and the moon, and the stars, all the host (צְבָא) of heaven, which the Lord your God assigned to all peoples under the entire heaven, and be drawn away to prostrate yourselves before them and worship them.
yes, many will say “i am” and say they will HEAL by their OWN power.
“and false prophets will appear and produce great signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. ”
carefully look at all these gods who come in the form of HUMAN beings
1. they breath
2. they get tempted
3. the WEATHER rocks them and throws them around.
4. they need the sun to provide for the food they eat
5. they think their LIMITED miracles is as good as GODS unlimited power
6. they need PRE-EXISTING MATERIAL to do their miracles.
7. they are heavily dependent on flesh bodies.
8. they are brought into the world by being BORN
they need to EAT fish to prove they came back to life
“i of my OWNSELF CAN do nothing…”
yes, he is right, he needs the help of his father because his father can, of his OWNSELF do everything, father = unlimited. father has power and control over ALL floods and storms. jesus gets ASSISTED.
jesus gets SEATED.
jesus GETS COMMANDED and controlled and ORDERED to speak.
This explanation is unsatisfactory. Through delivering a “rhetorical statement” Jesus has essentially and clearly termed himself as ignorant, not omniscient. There are other ways to drive through the point that you are saying without so clearly excluding yourself from the being God.
The two natures of Christ is incoherent, because it is logically contradictory, that Jesus possesses omniscience and ignorance simultaneously. You have not shown how this is even possible, nor have you shown how this belief is present in the New Testament.
Richard in this video emphasized about the context of that chapter that it’s all about eschatology and the end of time, so it would’ve been very stupid from Jesus if he had taught about his divinity while he was trying to teach about that the ignorance of people about that day- as if it would’ve been a contradiction between both!
Regardless that kind of answers is very weak, let’s ask Richard by the same manner about the context.
We all know that most christians believe that the best verse presenting Jesus’s divinity is when he said ( before Abraham was I am ) in John chapter 8. However, let’s deal with theme of the whole chapter! Such as: John 8:17-18, John 8:40, John 8:42, John 8:51, and John 8:54? What did Jesus try to teach those people?
Any thoughts , Richards?
Blogging Theology 
Matthew is virtually identical to Mark because the former used the latter as a source.
Regarding your point about the “rhetorical” nature of the passage in question, it seems to me to be a cop-out. I highly doubt that Jesus would have caused confusion about his alleged divinity just to protect the “rhetoric” of his statement about the end times, especially since the matter of his alleged divinity is the central tenet of Christianity.
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Agreed, I respect Richard’s attempt to defend the passage because it is hard for Christians to explain. However, the passage shows Jesus’s ignorance about the hour. If the same sort of statement existed in the Quran about Allah(swt) then Christians would have the right to call us out. But it’s in the Bible and I think the Muslim criticism of Jesus lack of knowledge is fair and comes from a natural reading of the text. But I’m no scholar!
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the christian god is identified as a person who has FULL access to the “divine mind”
The person says here on earth, I (person) don’t know the mind of my dad
That is 1 person speaking
so if this persons mind doesn’t know a simple thing like the day the world is going to end, then we must ask ,was the “divine mind” inaccessible? was it in disconnect mode? no more connection? Disabled? then jaysus the PERSON not only became human but “divine BRAINLESS”
if each person is “born” with properties which other persons lack (father “divine brain” knows things the other lacks), how can one divine nature give knowledge and no knowledge to persons who have full access to the same nature?
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One of the things that really strikes me is how, in the Bible Jesus’ humanity in on full display but evidence of his alleged divinity is so lacking. What exactly did Jesus do or say to prove that he was divine? Why did he show his humanity time after time?
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brother faiz, also , we see that the 1 person, 2 natures is said to have no power because of the unbelief of the ppl, yet yhwh in old t times was able to do miracles even in front of apostates and unbelievers. We can only conclude that 1 person, 2 natures lacking dunamis implies in its essence there is power failure.
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Richard, what do you think of this video? It reinforces what you say and goes deeper into the greek language (eido) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ljMliETgD0E
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so when your god says ” I am” then the human person is the one who is going to spout out ” I am” this would mean the divine mind and the human mind become wired together in order for the human mind to say ” I am”
so in one case you want the same person disconnecting and speaking through one nature ( the person is suppose to have divine mind INHERENT within him, so how was the divine mind not speaking when the human person was saying ” don’t know the mind of…..?) and in another case you need 1 person , SPEAKING through both NATURES when it speaks the words “I am…”
just a question
your god sees a piece of meat on the table and his human mind tells him to go ahead and eat it, not knowing it is unhealthy to eat
Since your god is 1 person, which mind does your god obey? the mind which is human which gives it false information about the meat or the divine mind? If human mind, what is the divine mind doing? Is it a personless mind? Is it functioning without a person? Is it separated from the person of jeeesus? what does the divine mind do while jeesus is going to eat bacteria infected flesh?
Test
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Hello Richard,
This was an interesting video. Most Trinitarian responses I have seen on this verse tend to be superficial. But you went deeper. Nonetheless, I have to say I am not convinced by your explanation.
I would like to cite this verse from the Bible ” Is no secret hidden from you?”[Ezekiel 28:3]
The context is that a human being (the ruler of Tyre) was claiming divinity. Ezekiel refutes his claim in several ways one of which is by asking the rhetorical question “Is there no secret hidden from you?’ This question presumes that for some one to be God , nothing can be hidden from them.
I don’t think this verse allows for a scenario where a God-man has secrets hidden from him because his God nature is not “communicated” to his human nature.
Do let me know your thoughts.
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Job
4Do you have eyes of flesh?
Do you see as a mortal sees?
5Are your days like those of a mortal
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Hi Fawaz,
Thank you for your kind words, and for your response – a very interesting and strong response, if I may say so.
That’s a tricky one, and prima facie I feel the weight of your objection, but I do feel there are at least a couple of ways to resolve this problem:
1) The context talks about wisdom, not knowledge of certain facts. Jesus therefore can meet this challenge, because he is all wise (Ben Witherington III is good on Jesus as God’s wisdom, as is http://www.tektonics.org/jesusclaims/trinitydefense.php) in his perception of things and resolution of difficulties. To be all wise in wisely dealing with certain matters, including how to prepare for the end times, is not affected by one’s lack of certain knowledge about when the end will come.
2) Even if we say that omniscience rather than being all-wise is the issue here, Jesus can still say that in his divinity he knows all things, even if in his humanity he is unknowing of the last hour. The difference is that the king of Tyre presumably would not say this – he wouldn’t, to my knowledge, claim to have a hypostatic union. Therefore he can’t explain why he arrogates to himself divine grandeur, because he has no excuse for his unknowing, even though Jesus can legitimately explain his own lack of knowing due to union of human and divine natures.
3) If someone says in response to point 2 that ‘that’s an excuse!’, in a way it is, but some excuses are legitimate. The burden of proof would still be on Jesus elsewhere and in other ways, however, to express and demonstrate his divinity, and I believe he does. But to summarise above, the king of Tyre couldn’t make such an excuse, but Jesus could.
Excellent question of yours, that’s my best go at the moment of responding to it.
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Richard,
Can you clarify how you feel that Jesus demonstrated his divinity? That goes back to my earlier question. Why is Jesus’ humanity so blatantly obvious but his alleged divinity not so much?
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“difference is that the king of Tyre presumably would not say this – he wouldn’t, to my knowledge, claim to have a hypostatic union”
Where did Jesus claim to have hypostatic union with the Father(God)? And yes it sounds like an overstretch excuse to me, its sad that Christians have to restore to this kind off mental gymnastic to defend Helenisctic/Roman doctrines in contradiction with Jesus monotheistic Jewish teachings.
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“To be all wise in wisely dealing with certain matters, including how to prepare for the end times, is not affected by one’s lack of certain knowledge about when the end will come.”
then why is it necessary for you to believe that the father knows everything ? The father knows when the time is right for the day of judgement, is the choosing of the day linked to his wise knowledge?
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Good points!
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“Jesus can still say that in his divinity he knows all things, even if in his humanity he is unknowing of the last hour.”
so tell me where does “in his divinity ” run off to? Where does the person with ” divine mind” run off too? How does the human person know it is fully god? how does the same person tell the same person that it is fully god and fully human yet fail to reveal the day of doom?
you are saying jesus the human can say he is fully god even in his humanity he is unknowing. what is this?
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Why must all the persons in the trinitarian model be omniscient in relation to each other? Unitarians assume this but they cite no logical argument for it’s necessity.
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Oh my goodness, Ignoramus! Did you really just ask such an asinine question?
In order for all three “persons” to be part of the so-called “Godhead”, they must be omniscient, because omniscience is a logical characteristic of God.
You guys are running out of excuses for your trinity, it would seem. 😉
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Erasmouse, so are u saying that the leader in trinity called the father passes on knowledge to the son? so you worship an informed god? explain in logical fashion how divine nature can give knowledge and lack of knowledge when both persons have access to the same nature?
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A static concept of omniscience is unlikely to be sufficient to fully encompass the way in which the triune God knows himself.
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explain how parent of jeeesus gives knowledge to child/son,when both things have access to the same nature?
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Lol, more empty trinitarian statements to distract from the failure of trinitarians to explain their theology.
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In God there may be different types of knowledge both changing and unchanging, as in human beings. Omniscience might apply to one but not to the other. So the Unitarian argument from omniscience fails.
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I get you.so the person of jeezus grows in wisdom while the father does not
The person of Jesus have full access to the dads mind but only lacks certain knowledge ergo he cannot be coequal in knowledge. The person of Jesus feels and experiences stuff the father does not , like temptations and sexual thoughts. so changing and unchanging
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To add is to increase and change. Within yhwh exists beings who develop
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Wow, I don’t think Ignoramus realizes that he is committing a heresy! He is saying that God’s knowledge changes!
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Exactly brother Heath. If what Ignoramus is saying were true, then Jesus was probably not even sinless. Hence, his death would have served no purpose and humans would still be in their sins.
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Any other types existing in single attributes erasmouse?
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How can you rule out experiential knowledge in God’s self-knowledge based on a trinitarian model of God?
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Because “experiential knowledge” doesn’t apply to an All-Powerful being. Moreover, in your trinitarian model, the persons of the trinity are supposed to be “co-equal”. Do I really need to review the trinity with you?
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so your god or 1 person 2 natures was sleeping in a boat while storm was brewing and rocking his boat. Your god was sleeping, are you gonna tell me 1 person 2 natures was experiencing sleep like mortals? god then had the experience of being taken over by sleep? was this an ingredient added to the knowledge of god? Look, why did yhwh tell the pagans he does not eat and sleep when according to you he has eyes like man, ears like man and thinking like man? What was the point in refuting the pagans?
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You are right, in trinitarian model for god to have EXPERIENTIAL knowledge is part of him and cannot be ruled out. So I as a human have to sleep but you have your god having experience sleep and feeling of it. Which makes me think if such experiential knowledge is permanently wired to his feelings in trinity.
how exactly does the human bit communicate and transfer the feeling of sleep and other bodily functions to the invisible person?
Do they become permanently wired to the feelings in trinity? Are they infinite?
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Creation ex nihilo is not a bad proof of being God.
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When did Jesus create ex nihilo? In fact, when did Jesus do anything out of his own power?
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Do you know the difference between unlimited and limited power? limited power is when a man commands the sun to stand still so he could do his job of killing. the sun and earth bear witness that jesus was created because jesus was benefitting from their power like every human does.your god needed the sun to exist . his mother needed the sun to exist. The son god may have practiced a limited miracle but he did not have control and power over every flood, storm, earthquake, weather change etc.your god was limited whereas the creator has POWER OVER everything that exists. You see, the creator don’t get rocked while calming a storm like your god was getting rocked while attempting to calm storm and Matthew who didn’t like the way marks jeesus calmed storm made few changes. There is difference between limited and unlimited.
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Thanks for posting this. I hope you’ll do more videos.
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First of All, Eid Mubarak for my muslim brothers. May Allah accept your deeds. This video, in fact, should remind us what a bless we are in because of Islam and the guidance of Allah. Thank God as He likes.
Richard,
Your answer is very very weak , and it doesn’t make any sense at all.
I almost swear by Allah(sw) that you yourself are not convinced by what you said.
For all fundamental christians,
Who said that if you gave your nonsense beliefs “philosophical” terms, they will be solved ?
When we say to christians that you worship 3 gods clearly as the sun, they merely answer us that’s called “trinity”!
When we say to christians that God cannot be perfect and imperfect in the same time, they merely answer us that’s called “hypostatic union” !
When we say to christians that you cannot be gods after the resurrection, they merely answer us that’s called ” Theosis ” !
Ok, God worships satan while he dances!
No …No! Do not ever try to object, muslims! That’s called “Satanic dancinsm of God”, which by the what doesn’t contradict God’s perfection & what God really is. Dhaaa!
God chose to “not exercise his divinity” ! What an answer!
Fear Allah! How could that be different from saying that God chose to not be God!? It’s really disturbing!
Be honest with yourself before to be honest with any one else
Do you really think that Jesus was walking around saying for his audience – in the 1st century, most of whom fishers, farmers, simple & illiterate people – that only the Father who knows that day so they can know what it means when God doesn’t exercise his divinity!? Do you really think that, Richard?
Remember! That only if we submitted that those people had already understood & gotten concepts such asTrinity & hypostatic union! However, we know all that has not been the case.
“no one knows the day” no ONE….. no ONE, Oh Jesus ! You have not known what ONE means for those who claim to be followers of your message!
QT 3:71
“O People of the Scripture, why do you confuse the truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know [it]? ”
QT 5:14-16
“O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book.
By which Allah guides those who pursue His pleasure to the ways of peace and brings them out from darknesses into the light, by His permission, and guides them to a straight path.
They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary. Say, “Then who could prevent Allah at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?” And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them. He creates what He wills, and Allah is over all things competent.”
My advice for you Richard, Ask Allah guidance. Ask Him as Jesus did!
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to say GOd knows everything is just another way to say God sees everything. Here knowledge seems to be interchangeable with seeing . Gods sees/knows past , present and future and knows/sees the exact time d.o.j, exact day, exact month , exact year d.o.j begins. The second person in trinity cannot see the day it begins, inherent in his attribute is disconnect from future event. the second person is blind to d.o.j. to say he is exercising not seeing /not knowing implies that ricks pagan god is viewing inherent attribute like choosing. So god chooses to create when he likes, he chooses to forgive and punish when he wants, Christians are viewing inherent and permanent attributes as replaceable with lack of knowledge and seeing. On /off. we wonder why each person cannot experience this disconnect.
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Eid mubarak to all!
Great post brother Abdullah.
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The context is Jesus the human jewish apocalyptic prophet makes prediction about the IMMINENT end of the existing order and arrival of God’s kingdom. As we know these predictions as presented in the Bible were wrong.
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Who blocked me? We are the pioneers of this blog.
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Eid Mubarak to all.
Richard
The Bible said God is not a man and God does not change. So, the incarnation and the 2 natures is clearly in Biblical. You are talking of ontology, eschatology, 2 natures, divine and human etc. that are from your head. It was not recorded in the Bible. This things are very important and must be recorded in the Bible but it came from your head. Richard. It is so bad. Jesus clearly said he does not know but the Father knows. We are talking of 2 things here. If each of them is God, then we have 2 Gods that amounts to polytheism punishable in hell fire, if one does not repent.
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“Because “experiential knowledge” doesn’t apply to an All-Powerful being.”
I think it does in the internal relations of the Trinitarian God.
Mere assertions are not arguments.
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Lol, so then you worship a flawed god with imperfect knowledge and abilities, just like the pagans with their demigods. Your trinity is no different than Zeus, Shiva, Rama, Krishna, Odin, Thor etc. They all had experiential knowledge instead of infinite knowledge.
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Power is an attribute in relation to things that are not God. The trinity is an inward relation so what has power got to do with it?
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“The trinity is an inward relation ..” Creative. lol.
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The idea that God acts upon himself as an object of his power is irrational.
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What do the pagan triplets use to.act love upon themselves? When.dad needs child to send his love and dad is object of his kids love, what is being used for a person to receive his own love?
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“Lol, so then you worship a flawed god with imperfect knowledge and abilities, just like the pagans with their demigods. Your trinity is no different than Zeus, Shiva, Rama, Krishna, Odin, Thor etc. They all had experiential knowledge instead of infinite knowledge.”
LOL circular reasoning.
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So no answer Ignoramus? You worship an imperfect deity? Your god is no different from the Hindu trinity, yes?
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Here is the funny thing bro, he doesn’t believe that his god is object of his own power, but while his god is feeling like a human while breathing oxygen, then his god is object of his own mercy.
so it is like god created the sun and then became subject to it because god was feeling cold.
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Lol, yep that’s Christianity in a nutshell brother Heath.
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Faiz, I guess when all you have to have do normally is quote a hadith or a scholar you are not used to having to furnish a reasoned argument. I sympathize with you.
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So still no answer? You can’t answer because you don’t have one, right? I sympathize with you.
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The Islamic supremacist way to discuss a subject.
I make an assertion for which I offer no proof. If you cannot disprove it my assertion is true. End of argument.
How childish.
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The Christian coward’s way to discuss a subject. Make empty statements with no proof and then distract from that failure by distracting and refusing to answer any question. End of argument. How childish.
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I forgot to mention that any desperate explanation from christians to those so embarrassing passages is a result that christians already accept the deity of Jesus with no basis. We need to ask christians what makes you accept that idea in the first place to put yourself in this weak situation ?
Any sincere reader to those passages wouldn’t get a clue of those “philosophical” explanations that christians put in the mouth of Jesus.
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Jesus created wine, bread and fishes to eat and drink. That is proof enough to anyone with an open mind that he is God.
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You must be joking! How desperate are you?
Moses created a snake out of a rod. He split the sea. Does that make him God?
So you think that Jesus’ miracles prove that he is God, but his limited knowledge does not prove that he is not God? Christian logic strikes again.
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quote :
Deuteronomy 13:2-7 makes it clear that if someone claims to be a prophet and tells us to follower other gods who our forefathers have not known, (i.e. jesus) we are NOT to follow that “prophet,” EVEN IF HE PERFORMS MIRACLES!
quote :
You wrote that resurrection belongs only to God. What do you make then of the fact that both Elijah and Elisha performed resurrections (1 Kings 17 and 2 Kings 4)?
quote :
1. G-d is explicitly commanding Israel not to worship Him in any form. (Deut 4:16)
2. G-d is explicitly commanding Israel to teach this to their children and their children’s children, even after they come to the land of Israel. (Deut 4:9-14)
So this isn’t just a “one time deal” command, Lion…This prohibition against form worship extends to this very day!
It is important to note that this is not simply explicit to “man made forms.” Did G-d create Adam, the first man? Yes…But WOULD G-d appear in the form of Adam? Of course not! Same thing with the “first lizard,” or the “first fish.” How do we know this? Deut 4:16! We are not to worship G-d in ANY FORM.
Likewise, your jesus was a man. Your jesus was a form. Hashem explicitly forbids Israel from worshipping Him in ANY FORM.
Thus, your jesus cannot be “god in the flesh.” On the contrary, your jesus is not Hashem. Hashem clearly states that it is idolatry to worship Him in any form. Thus, your worship of jesus is idolatry.
Also keep in mind that the “sun, the moon, and the whole host of heaven,” were not “man made” either, so please do not make the pitiful argument that your jeezer is immune to this prohibition because he is supposedly “uncreated.” (Which you have no means of proving.) A form is a form is a form!
At the end of the day, Deut 4:9-19 what we are to go by. If you wish to eisegetically abuse scripture and assume that “let us make man in our image” refers to your jeezer, then that’s your idolatrous prerogative.
G-d gave Israel explicit instructions not to worship Him in ANY FORM. Deut 4:9-19 isn’t going away…Sorry!
worship host of heaven………..
interesting that you should bring up Joshua 5 and the supposed “worship” of this “captain of the Lord’s HOST” who you claim to be the jeezer.
Did you ever think to check Deuteronomy 4:19 and how the WHOLE HOST OF HEAVEN is prohibited from being worshiped by G-d Himself?!
Deut 4:19. And lest you lift up your eyes to heaven, and see the sun, and the moon, and the stars, all the host (צְבָא) of heaven, which the Lord your God assigned to all peoples under the entire heaven, and be drawn away to prostrate yourselves before them and worship them.
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He also healed by his own power which proves he is God.
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Um, no. He didn’t heal by his own power. Why are you ignorant of your own Bible? Jesus said that he can’t do anything on his own.
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You believe that Moses did those things? You are crazy!
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Lol, so no actual answer as usual. Typical Ignoramus.
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Jesus said he can’t do anything on his own.
Look at the context of what he said.
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Lol. It wasn’t 21 century evangelicalism lol
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He literally said that he does nothing on his own. That’s a pretty emphatic statement.
Even his alleged resurrection was not done by his power. It was God who supposedly raised him from the dead. See the book of Acts.
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yes, many will say “i am” and say they will HEAL by their OWN power.
“and false prophets will appear and produce great signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. ”
carefully look at all these gods who come in the form of HUMAN beings
1. they breath
2. they get tempted
3. the WEATHER rocks them and throws them around.
4. they need the sun to provide for the food they eat
5. they think their LIMITED miracles is as good as GODS unlimited power
6. they need PRE-EXISTING MATERIAL to do their miracles.
7. they are heavily dependent on flesh bodies.
8. they are brought into the world by being BORN
they need to EAT fish to prove they came back to life
“i of my OWNSELF CAN do nothing…”
yes, he is right, he needs the help of his father because his father can, of his OWNSELF do everything, father = unlimited. father has power and control over ALL floods and storms. jesus gets ASSISTED.
jesus gets SEATED.
jesus GETS COMMANDED and controlled and ORDERED to speak.
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This explanation is unsatisfactory. Through delivering a “rhetorical statement” Jesus has essentially and clearly termed himself as ignorant, not omniscient. There are other ways to drive through the point that you are saying without so clearly excluding yourself from the being God.
The two natures of Christ is incoherent, because it is logically contradictory, that Jesus possesses omniscience and ignorance simultaneously. You have not shown how this is even possible, nor have you shown how this belief is present in the New Testament.
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“You have not shown how this even possible”
Just label it with a “philosophical” term, and it’s done!
The language has lost its job with christians.
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My question again for Richard,
God chose to “not exercise his divinity” !
How could that be different from saying that God chose to not be God!?
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Richard in this video emphasized about the context of that chapter that it’s all about eschatology and the end of time, so it would’ve been very stupid from Jesus if he had taught about his divinity while he was trying to teach about that the ignorance of people about that day- as if it would’ve been a contradiction between both!
Regardless that kind of answers is very weak, let’s ask Richard by the same manner about the context.
We all know that most christians believe that the best verse presenting Jesus’s divinity is when he said ( before Abraham was I am ) in John chapter 8. However, let’s deal with theme of the whole chapter! Such as: John 8:17-18, John 8:40, John 8:42, John 8:51, and John 8:54? What did Jesus try to teach those people?
Any thoughts , Richards?
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