When You’re Gay and Muslim – Finding Allah’s Meaning in All of It

A brilliant, balanced, and compassionate piece by Waheed Jensen, a Muslim male in his mid 20’s. Reblogged from patheos.com 

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Ever since I began trying to understand life, one of the crippling realizations about the Muslim communities I reached was this: We tend to bury our problems in a dark hole, dismiss them and hope they will never come back to haunt us. But they often do. We overlook many of our familial, social and cultural issues until they multiply and are about to explode in our faces; at that point we are notorious for pointing fingers and crying over spilled milk.

Our room is filled with elephants that we barely have an inch to stand, yet we remain oblivious and hope things will get better.

Allow me today to describe one of those elephants. A strange elephant. Allow me to dissect it and hand it over to you, that you may ponder and hopefully open your heart and mind.

Let me start off by saying these three words: I am gay.

Even though you do not know who I am, and maybe the mere fact that I just came out to you right this instant may offend you, confuse you or drive you away from reading the remainder of this article. Let me assure you, this is not one of those articles that tries to promote homosexuality or deliver an airbrushed and Islam-oriented version of all those pro-homosexuality arguments.

Yes, I am gay and I am Muslim, and I am here to offer you a small glimpse into a journey of struggles, passions and hopes. I do not intend to delve into the story of Prophet Lut and his people, talk about the evolution and progression of the LGBT community during the past century, present arguments for or against same-sex relations, or even try to prove my own opinion. I really hope you can read and reflect, and I pray that this small effort of bringing the picture a little closer to you might make the slightest bit of difference in raising awareness, and hopefully open healthy discussions on the topic.

I wholeheartedly believe, in concordance with Islam and its teachings, that sodomy is a major sin. I am against same-sex marriage and intercourse, and I am not in favor of any progressive movements that attempt to explain Quranic verses about People of Lut or sodomy from a modernist or post-modernist approach – in other words, arguments that try to find a leeway and claim that that is a legitimate Islamic perspective.

I hope that this will not drive away readers who are excited about the topic but may be uncomfortable with my statements. I have adopted this position after years of introspection, research, counseling and personal prayer, and I am coming forth today to share with you some of those experiences.

Why Am I Different?

Homosexuality has been present in humanity for centuries, and for as long as it has been there, homosexuals have been struggling with themselves, their families and society at large. To me personally, there was always something different. I could feel it in me from a very young age. Something that I could not explain to others, because I thought they would not understand, let alone accept, or maybe because I was too young and immature at the time that I was not entirely sure what ‘it’ was.

It crystallized around puberty; when all the raging hormones started kicking in, those tendencies became obvious. And then the real struggle began.

The struggle led to an explosion of questions. “Why am I different? Why am I not like the rest of my friends or family members? Is this even normal? Am I sick?” Not finding the proper answers, I kept on putting these questions aside. “Maybe it’ll go away. Maybe it’s just a phase.” In my case, it never went away and it was not a phase.

With time I learned that this is something abhorred religiously, culturally and socially. So I tried to adapt. “How do I balance between the feelings and tendencies I have with what my religion, culture and social norms dictate?” So I began a journey of self-exploration and interacting with others, learning from religion, media as well as prominent persons, like religious scholars and major social figures. My schemas kept changing, and I kept on adapting.

Many of us may be brave enough to rebel against what others seem to ‘dictate’ on us, while others suppress their urges, often hiding their identities from those closest to them, generally out of fear, or maybe because they are not just ready to come out yet. I belong to the latter group.

To this date, I have never had the courage to tell my parents or close family members, but I have come out to a close friend of mine a few months ago, and he was extremely supportive Alhamdulillah (all praises to Allah).

One of the most dangerous pitfalls I have personally experienced was thinking that God hated me. He was mad at me. “I must have done something wrong in my life to deserve this ‘punishment’… If God does not accept homosexuality, then why am I a homosexual?” Whether Muslim or not, people struggling in silence can be more prone to deviating to dangerous paths.

So, you find many struggling homosexuals also dealing with bullying, drinking problems, substance abuse, domestic violence, poor academic performance, career problems, pornography or sex addictions, sexually-transmitted diseases, mood disorders like depression and anxiety, and many other issues. (1) I had my own share of bullying, academic problems and mood disorders. Our struggles multiply with time, and many even contemplate suicide.

This is especially true in cases where the individual tries to discuss the issue – often it is just those desires or thoughts that are tackled, not the actual act – with his/her parents or family members who are not receptive to those ideas. If not shown sympathy, care and love, he/she is often shunned, harassed, scorned and sometimes even tortured.

A lot of gay men and women are forced into arranged marriages, taken to local Imams to ‘heal them from their calamity and wrath of God’, or even killed. (2) Some of them take their own lives by themselves. Others live in constant torment while some flee their homes and families in search for a more welcoming environment. That and many have not even yet engaged in any sexual acts whatsoever.

Why We Have Difficulty with Other Muslims

This is why I, along with many fellow homosexual Muslims, find the Western alternative very striking: It offers acceptance and understanding. Things that we dearly miss in our communities, even though we may realize deep down that there is something terribly wrong, the fact that there is someone who accepts us and fights for us and not against us is incredibly more appealing. When we try to talk to other Muslim seemingly-pious and God-conscious brothers and sisters about our sexuality, and are shunned by their lack of empathy, respect and understanding, would you find it surprising that we take comfort in talking to non-religious people about our struggles in hopes to find an open mind and a loving heart?

Ironically, the spirit of Islam is all about empathy, tolerance and understanding, yet the practice of Islam carried out by many Muslims shows the opposite.

Trust me, I understand that it is a difficult topic to open up with others, especially people coming from conservative backgrounds. It is difficult news for you to receive, just as it is difficult for me to handle, let alone share with others. However, the fact that I choose to come out to specific people means that those people are exceptionally special to me. To us.

It takes a lot of courage, incredible determination and a full dose of anxiety and fear to even think about coming out to someone, that you can imagine the damage we have to endure when the other person dismisses us or shows no empathy or mercy. It seems like a lot to handle if you ask me.

I remember the first time I decided to come out to someone, I was going through an overwhelming period in my life, yet Alhamdulillah I had some seeds of piety and religiosity inside me. I was around 18, and he was a non-religious psychologist and counselor. I went to an appointment with him, tried to beat around the bush but ultimately came out to him. And, he was accepting. Later on, I found out that many struggling homosexuals came to him for advice and counseling.

I was hoping that, with the aid of therapy, my orientation would change – this is scientifically known as reparative or conversion therapy; while many studies have been conducted on it and some patients have reported success, a great number of psychiatrists and counselors have reported failure and more harm done to the patients than good. The progress of my visits culminated in him putting forward the idea of accepting who I am and going all the way with it – in other words, experience my entire sexuality without restraints.

At that point I was really uncomfortable with his proposal, as it was against my Islamic beliefs and my own virtues.

During that same period, I was doing my own reading and researching, trying to find a proper Islamic “solution,” crying for help and praying that I be guided to what Allah pleases. One of the most heartwarming responses was given by a psychiatrist who also has profound knowledge of Islamic shariah (legal rulings). He was hosted on a TV show, and he was speaking so graciously, so open-mindedly, that his words hit the right chord and I was immediately awe-struck. I cried after finally having found an answer with which my heart felt ease.

That was pure bliss, Alhamdulillah.

Why Am I Homosexual?

The gist of the talk is the following: Homosexuality as an orientation is a disorder in one’s fitrah (human nature and disposition). “Treatment” of such a disorder involves therapy, familial and social support, personal discipline and a whole lot of other things. However, this therapy, which is tailored on a case-by-case basis, may or may not work. The mode of therapy is different between individuals, just like every case of homosexuality is different between people.

Mind you, the term “therapy” here is used loosely to mean dealing with the issue from different aspects rather than reverting one’s sexual orientation.

If many of us, homosexuals, dive deeper into our childhood and upbringing, we can pinpoint certain events that have taken their toll on us one way or another. Many of us have experienced child abuse, be it sexual, physical or intense emotional abuse that was brutally damaging to our body and soul, or lived in dysfunctional families that ultimately caused a lot of psychological damage. (3)

I, for one, had my own share of psychological and sexual abuse as a child from people closest to me, and witnessed intense domestic violence that crippled my mind for a decent period of time. Such events were so incredibly powerful that they became ingrained in my psyche and took their toll on my thinking and behavior.

Others have been desensitized to issues related to sexuality and gender roles from a young age, that their perception of masculinity and femininity is quite erroneous. I can recall several stories of struggling homosexuals I know who grew up in homes where one parent was more dominant in their life (e.g. present most of the time while the other was absent, provided greater emotional, psychological and social support while the other did the exact the opposite), such that either parent’s gender became more dominant on their lives and personas, and hence their perception of gender and sexuality deviated from the normal.

It is worth noting, however, that many people grow up in normal environments with no such issues during childhood, yet end up finding themselves attracted to the same gender. So there is no discrete thumb rule or cause as to whether someone will end up identifying as a homosexual or a heterosexual. It is not a simple black or white situation.

In addition to the above, it has been asserted that there are other acquired causes – we are bombarded on a daily basis with sensual and sexually-explicit material, from billboards, magazines and newspaper articles, to online material on social media websites. Sex and sexuality are heavily emphasized in TV shows, readings and discussions, whether openly or not. We have become accustomed to seeing semi-naked and naked bodies, our concepts of beauty, femininity and masculinity have radically evolved over time and we have become desensitized to these matters. (4)

There is an unbelievable amount of time and resources spent on creating better bodies: muscular, dreamy and good-looking men, and gorgeous women with “perfect” facial and body features. In addition, many of the inter- and intra-gender boundaries have drastically changed over time. Taken together, these matters overwhelm the human mind, and the effects are undoubtedly palpable.

Again, these and countless other events affect people’s heart, mind, body and spirit differently. People struggle to cope in different ways. Some people, like myself and countless others, may eventually find themselves with a specific worldview, having had a culmination of experiences, as well as a specific orientation that may or may not be modifiable. Just like these examples are struggles in and of themselves, homosexual thoughts and tendencies are no less than struggles as well.

Will I Have a Partner in Life?

When I see married men and women sharing affection, enjoying companionship and raising children, it hurts. A lot. Not the jealous I-hope-they-lose-all-that kind, but the painful realization that this is not something I can ever attain. Because of my situation, my ibtila’ (struggle in life), the idea of marrying someone from the opposite sex is not practical at all or even fair for me or my potential spouse. Many shuyukhadvice homosexuals to get married for their tendencies to dissolve; while this may work with a handful of people, a large number of us does not find it physically or mentally plausible.

Many of the things other people, including those shuyukh themselves, take for granted – like relationships, marriage and having children – are the exact things we struggle with day in and day out. Personally, and unlike Muslim heterosexuals, I do not have safe and lawful options through which I can channel and fulfill those desires. Therefore, I try my best to remain steadfast and struggle for the sake of Allah. If that is not incredible Jihad, I do not know what counts as such.

While it may seem unfair and even preposterous to some people to keep struggling and not fulfill our desires, especially in this time and age, that is where the beauty lies. Within Islam, we are not held accountable for our thoughts, feelings, desires and tendencies as long as we do not act upon them. There are three ideas worth mentioning here.

First, Allah has promised in the Quran that He “does not charge a soul except [with that within] its capacity” [2:286]. Taken in line with Islamic teachings, this means that Allah knows how painful my struggle is and knows that I can handle it. Every time I ponder upon this idea, I am overwhelmed with incredible awe and gratitude. Of all people across centuries, He has chosen specific people for this particular test. Indeed, life is nothing but a few years and the True Life is in the Hereafter, so no matter how agonizing the struggle is, there will be an end to it.

Second, there is immense reward and unimaginable blessings, both in this life and the Hereafter, by staying true to God’s decree and struggling for His sake. The greater the struggle, the more the rewards inshaAllah (God willing).

Third, and just like the popular saying goes, “when God closes one door, He opens another.” So, if issues like intimacy and procreation may seem like dead ends for Muslim homosexuals, we find openings in other aspects of life. Many homosexuals across history have been known for incredible gifts in writing, public speaking, music, cinema, scientific discoveries, literature and art. (5) Studies have reported that homosexuals exhibit high levels of empathy and compassion compared to heterosexuals. (6)

Because we have suffered and are constantly struggling, we have big hearts that know no boundaries. If we utilize our God-given gifts wisely and for the greater good, we can do wonders inshaAllah.

We All are Trying to Find Answers

Of course, there are Muslim homosexuals and pro-gay rights advocates who adopt a completely different perspective. Some try to balance between their religious duties while keeping in line with their orientation; in other words, they carry out their desires yet remain true to their duties. Others denounce Islamic rules altogether arguing that in modern times, such rules do not apply, hence they call for a reformation in Islamic laws taken for granted as solid foundations of religion.

Others are still struggling between balancing Islamic law and their own sexuality, searching for answers that provide them with ultimate satisfaction.

I am in no way trying to prove myself right and others wrong. This article is solely intended to highlight some of the struggles I go through as a Muslim homosexual, and I have taken the liberty at some points to speak on behalf of fellow struggling homosexuals because of our shared tribulations. Whatever your position is on this matter, I respect you and love you as a human being, your desires are legitimate and in no way make you less of a human being.

However, based on my beliefs, I do not accept specific actions that you may do which go against Islamic law. And there again, you are no less of a human being, and I still respect you as an individual. This falls at the heart of Islam – if someone like me who is struggling with his/her own desires can adopt such a stance, then so can everyone else. Maybe if we focus less on demonizing other people and concentrate more on helping one another, things would start to change for the best.

If you are a homosexual reading this, please know that my heart is with you. I of all people understand the daily struggles you are going through, and I salute your bravery and high spirit. Please remember that Allah is Merciful and Forgiving, no matter how much people tell you otherwise. Stay strong, and if you ever fall into the traps of Shaytan (the devil), repent to the Almighty with a pure heart and know that He accepts and welcomes the sincere. Pray to remain steadfast. Fasting is a powerful weapon so try your best to fast regularly.

Also, try to do sports and channel your energy in healthy ways. Surround yourself with good company of pious people, and keep daily companionship of His Book. Pursue a higher purpose in life, for you are already on a high track. Trust me, I understand that the struggles may reach excruciating levels – it is at those moments that our inner cores are tested.

Make your struggles entirely for His sake, and they will be worth it. You will come out stronger and braver than before. With today’s explosion of sexuality and acceptance of same-sex relations, do not swallow the bait. Keep yourself in company of Him for that is all that ultimately matters.

If you are a heterosexual reading this, and assuming you may be uncomfortable with such a topic, I understand that this may be overwhelming for you at first glance. Take it easy on yourself, and certainly take it easy on others. We all have our own struggles, so let us make this journey we call life a little bit less difficult for one another. Let us shift our focus from pointing out each other’s faults and instead work together for more empathy, compassion and love.

There is a difference between respecting someone and accepting his/her actions; the former must be there at all times. If we disagree or have different lifestyles, and certainly if we make mistakes, please do not judge us. Bear with us. Listen to us, be there for us, for if you ever need us we will be there for you.

Even though we may not get the chance to experience what it means to have a spouse, be intimate or even raise a family in this life, I pray that Allah accepts our struggles for His sake and fulfill our desires in the Hereafter. Yes, I am a gay Muslim, and I am proud – proud that Allah has chosen me and many other brothers and sisters for this particular struggle in this life. And for that, and for all His countless blessings we say, Alhamdulillah.

“I hope that the worlds turns, and that things get better. But what I hope most of all is that you understand what I mean when I tell you that, even though I do not know you, and even though I may never meet you, laugh with you, cry with you… I love you. With all my heart, I love you.”
(V for Vendetta)

Waheed Jensen is a Muslim male in his mid 20’s, struggling in this world with being young, open-minded and gay, trapped in a global community of Muslims who claim to follow Islam but lack the application of its most basic tenets. Working to make the world a better place for Muslims and non-Muslims alike. A version of this article appeared on Altmuslimah and VirtualMosque.com.

1. Lee, R. (2000). Health care problems of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender patients. Western Journal of Medicine, 172(6), 403–408.
2. Kesvani, H. (2015, April 18). Meet The Gay Muslims Living In Straight Marriages. http://www.buzzfeed.com/husseinkesvani/gay-muslims-in-straight-marriages
3. Schneeberger, A. R., Dietl, M. F., Muenzenmaier, K. H., Huber, C. G., & Lang, U. E. (2014). Stressful childhood experiences and health outcomes in sexual minority populations: a systematic review. Social psychiatry and psychiatric epidemiology, 49(9), 1427-1445.
4. Qadhi, Y. (2009, April 13). Dealing With Homosexual Urges: Yasir Qadhi to Muslim Student. http://muslimmatters.org/2009/04/13/dealing-with-homosexual-urges/
5. Rictor Norton (compiler), “The Great Queers of History, Part 1: Born before 1800″, 1 May 2004 <http://rictornorton.co.uk/greatgay/greatgay.htm&gt;.
6. Salais, D. A., & Fischer, R. B. (1995). Sexual preference and altruism. Journal of Homosexuality, 28(1-2), 185-196.

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Categories: Homosexuality, Islam, paul williams, Recommended Reading

127 replies

  1. Excellent article brother Paul. May Allah let us pass the test He has for us on this world. Ameen. You are not the only one being tested. All of us. Some heterosexuals would like to chase other unmarried women without marrying them. Some may not fall into the the act, but will strive or persevere to follow Allah’s will and not to commit such sins.

    Some people are sick and cannot even write or read due to their ailment but will have their faith in Allah intact. Every human being has a problem unless he refuses that. You see, you are absolutely better as compared to other tests.

    Stay blessed and seek refuge in Allah from satan(the cursed) one. Ameen.

    Thanks.

    Liked by 3 people

  2. “Verily, you practise your lusts on men instead of women. No, but you are a people transgressing beyond bounds (by committing great sins)’ [quran 7:81] … As a Muslim myself, I understand that it’s your life & no can tell you what to do etc etc…. but let’s not sit here & pretend Islam isn’t completely against this specific [lifestyle], homosexuality. It never made sense to me why anyone would call themselves ‘Muslim’ & ‘gay’ …. it just seems like you’re trying hard to be different & get attention. Just call yourself ‘Gay’ because if we’re all being honest, you’re not even practicing Islam at this point. Or you’re out of the fold of islam to put it differently. All 1.7 practicing Muslims in the world do not support homosexuality, I promise you, you won’t be the one person to “reform” the religion or westernize it by making it seem like Islam (or any of the other abrahamic religion) accept this lifestyle. Facts are you’re just Gay… live your life but understand you’ll constantly get comment similar to this if you drag Muslims or Islam into your fantasy (of course inspired by Satan).

    Like

    • So where are you getting that being attracted to members of one’s own gender is kufr? Or irtidād? I mean textually. Prove it.

      “Not even practicing Islam[?]” Seriously, how do you figure?

      Like

    • “Proof” “textually” ….. Here you go Moderate westernized Muslim….. “And (remember) Loot (Lot), when he said to his people: ‘Do you commit the WORST SIN such as none preceding you has committed in the ‘Aalameen (mankind and jinn)?

      Verily, you practise your lusts on men instead of women. Nay, but you are a people TRANSGRESSING BEYOND BOUNDS (by committing great sins)’”

      [al-A’raaf 7:80-81]

      ALSO – “Verily, We(ALLAH) sent against them a VIOLENT STORM of STONES (which destroyed them all!!!), except the family of Loot (Lot), them We saved in the last hour of the night”

      [al-Qamar 54:34 – ]

      Kufr is when you know the truth & are HIDING IT or rejecting it, Don’t make a fool of yourself thinking a Muslim can be a homosexual, ALLAH himself Told us he DESTROYED a nation full of gays. You ain’t practicing Islam, just LEAVE THE RELIGION & do whatever the hell you want, it’s your life you’ll suffer the consequences……..

      Like

    • Sins are kufr now? So you’re not Sunnī then, that’s all you had to say. Carry on.

      Is telling people to leave Islām kufr though? 🤔 That might be one to ask one of your shuyūkh…

      Like

    • Just tell me one thing: would you also urge an alcoholic Muslim to “LEAVE THE RELIGION[?]”

      Like

    • If they insist on saying it’s ok to be an alcoholic in Islam & there are “no proofs textually” ….. that just tells me & everyone they are hypocrites !! & wanting to bring something new to the religion…. A real Muslim who has a bad habit of drinking alcohol would obviously get a different advice & special prayer from his fellow Muslims.

      Like

    • Not what I asked, and you missed the point.

      Like

    • That’s EXACTLY what you asked & you got your answer….. I have a reason Why I tell people to leave the religion…. don’t bring your bs to Islam or think you’re gonna get away with being a blatant hypocrite.

      Like

    • LOL actually no, what I asked required a yes or no answer, not some silly conditions that justified your silly behavior. Grow up.

      Like

    • Sounding like a sore loser….. you grow up & leave that satanic lifestyle behind. NO homosexuality in Islam, go cry about it

      Like

    • Sounding like a childish wannabe zealot.

      1. I’m not homosexual.
      2. I’m defending brother Paul, who isn’t a PRACTICNG homosexual.
      3. Nobody here is saying there IS homosexuality “in Islām.”

      Nothing to cry about 😁

      Like

    • sound like an idiot getting mad abt being reminded about the rules in Islam…. dumb kid, get a life. May Allahﷻ guide you

      Like

  3. So quick to take down my comment…. the truth stings…. you can stop tagging ‘islam’…..

    Like

  4. “Proof” “textually” ….. Here you go Moderate westernized Muslim….. “And (remember) Loot (Lot), when he said to his people: ‘Do you commit the WORST SIN such as none preceding you has committed in the ‘Aalameen (mankind and jinn)?

    Verily, you practise your lusts on men instead of women. Nay, but you are a people TRANSGRESSING BEYOND BOUNDS (by committing great sins)’”

    [al-A’raaf 7:80-81]

    ALSO – “Verily, We(ALLAH) sent against them a VIOLENT STORM of STONES (which destroyed them all!!!), except the family of Loot (Lot), them We saved in the last hour of the night”

    [al-Qamar 54:34 – ]

    Kufr is when you know the truth & are HIDING IT or rejecting it, Don’t make a fool of yourself thinking a Muslim can be a homosexual, ALLAH himself Told us he DESTROYED a nation full of gays. You ain’t practicing Islam, just LEAVE THE RELIGION & do whatever the hell you want, it’s your life you’ll suffer the consequences……..

    Like

  5. Homosexuality as an orientation is a disorder in one’s fitrah (human nature and disposition).

    The Christian theology of original sin and the fall of mankind explains this disorder – as with all other sinful disposition patterns in the thoughts and imaginations – some people have a genetic disposition toward alcoholism and other drug addictions, some others to food and gluttony, some to laziness, some to anger, some to self-pity and selfish depression, some to arrogant pride, etc. – the same sex desires are not ok, and neither are the other sins. Jesus taught about the root internal sins of anger and hatred that lead to murder (Matthew 5:21-26) and the root internal sins of lusts that lead to adultery. (Matthew 5:27-30)

    Mark 7:20-23 and Genesis 6:5 and Jeremiah 17:9 explain this – sinful actions come from a sinful nature, a sinful heart, where the secret thoughts and desires reside.

    The only solution is not the external laws and washings of Islam (they cannot change your heart of sinful desires), but you need a new heart (Ezekiel 36:26-27) , you must be born again by God’s Spirit (John 3:1-21; 7:37-39) only by heart repentance/conversion and faith in Jesus Al Masih عیسی المسیح (the Messiah), and all that He is promised in the NT, and His atoning work on the cross and resurrection. (Romans 3:23-28; Romans 10:9-10)

    Jesus said, “repent and believe in this good news” Mark 1:15

    Like

    • Islam does not teach a faith without Grace being absolutely essential for our salvation but neither does it say Faith alone.

      Submission to Gods ways require all of the human being. Body and mind. Just as the bible teaches.

      Read the epistle of James if you don’t believe me.

      Like

    • Ken Temple

      You said;
      The only solution is not the external laws and washings of Islam (they cannot change your heart of sinful desires), but you need a new heart (Ezekiel 36:26-27) , you must be born again by God’s Spirit (John 3:1-21; 7:37-39) only by heart repentance/conversion and faith in Jesus Al Masih عیسی المسیح (the Messiah), and all that He is promised in the NT, and His atoning work on the cross and resurrection. (Romans 3:23-28; Romans 10:9-10)

      Jesus said, “repent and believe in this good news” Mark 1:15

      I say;
      Christians sin everyday just like any human beings. Faith in Jesus as their personal saviour did not save them. Christian clergy like Eddie Lee Long, Jimmy Swaggart, Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar Nabeel Quraish who is a liar etc., politicians, comedians, newscasters etc. like Bill Clinton, Bill Cosby, Bill O’Reilly etc. are were caught sinning. So, Christians are not special than any human beings when it comes to sins.

      Adam and Eve sinned before the fall, not after the fall. So, the fall cannot be the cause of sin but Satan is. He tempted them to sin and he continue to tempt us to sin today. He tempted Jesus Christ, your God ans showed him the world. So, all this sinful nature/original sin are just an illusions. You do not talk about Satan and his temptations which are proven and tested but wasting your time on sinful nature/original sin which are fantasies.

      Thanks.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Why do you keep bringing up heretics and non-Christians in your lists?

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    • the only credible person you mentioned in those lists is Nabeel Qureshi – he is a genuine Christian, but the others are mostly heretics (Long, Hinn, Dollar are heretics and not Christians) and non-Christians. (Clinton, Cosby, and O’Reilly are not Christians) I hope Jimmy Swaggart is a Christian – I cannot judge.

      Like

    • Ken Temple

      You said;
      The only solution is not the external laws and washings of Islam (they cannot change your heart of sinful desires), but you need a new heart (Ezekiel 36:26-27) , you must be born again by God’s Spirit (John 3:1-21; 7:37-39) only by heart repentance/conversion and faith in Jesus Al Masih عیسی المسیح (the Messiah), and all that He is promised in the NT, and His atoning work on the cross and resurrection. (Romans 3:23-28; Romans 10:9-10)

      Jesus said, “repent and believe in this good news” Mark 1:15

      I say;
      Christians sin everyday just like any human beings. Faith in Jesus as their personal saviour did not save them. Christian clergy like Eddie Lee Long, Jimmy Swaggart, Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar Nabeel Quraish who is a liar etc., politicians, comedians, newscasters etc. like Bill Clinton, Bill Cosby, Bill O’Reilly etc. are were caught sinning. So, Christians are not special than any human beings when it comes to sins.

      Thanks.

      Like

    • Adam and Eve sinned before the fall, not after the fall. So, the fall cannot be the cause of sin but Satan is. He tempted them to sin and he continue to tempt us to sin today. He tempted Jesus Christ, your God ans showed him the world. So, all this sinful nature/original sin are just an illusions. You do not talk about Satan and his temptations which are proven and tested but wasting your time on sinful nature/original sin which are fantasies.

      Someone who has got God died and paid for his sins, need not repent like anyone. It does not make sense. Muslims, Jews and others believed no one has died and paid for their sins and so are responsible for their sins and repent when they do sin. It is understandable. Deep in the heart of Christians the believed the blood of Jesus cannot save them when they sin, hence their repentance just like anyone to beg for forgiveness. It shows Jesus did not die for Christians sins. Jimmy Swaggart and other Christians cried on TV and beg for forgiveness. Why beg for forgiveness if your sins has been paid for? Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger(Pope Benedict} asks for forgiveness from the victims of his Church’s clergy sex abuse. Why? If Jesus had already paid that:?

      Thanks.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Satan and demons are real and the Bible speaks about them. Genesis 3, Job 1-2; Matthew 4, Luke 4, Ephesians 6:10-18; 2 Cor. 11:3, all through the gospel according to Mark, Revelation 12:9; Ezekiel 28 (the spirit behind the king of Tyre), Revelation 20, etc.

      Christ paid for the sins of everyone in all nations who will ever believe, both past and future (Revelation 5:9, Acts 20:28, Colossians 2:13-14; Ephesians 1:7

      But that forgiveness is not applied to a person until there is repentance and faith at conversion (John 5:24, Acts 13:38-39), but sins after justification/salvation are confessed and repented of because the fellowship with the Lord is broken (1 John 1:5-10) and that confession and repentance shows genuine salvation.

      Before the cross, part of the prayer was:
      Matthew 6:12
      ‘And forgive us our sins, as we also have forgiven those who have sinned against us.” –

      After the cross – if someone is unwilling to ask for forgiveness, it shows that that they are not truly saved.

      Ephesians 4:30-32
      “forgiving one another, just as God in Christ has forgiven you.”

      Like

    • the fall away from God was the result of the sin. Yes Satan got it all started by tempting and decieving Eve. We agree with that.

      Like

    • Ken Temple
      August 17, 2017 • 6:27 pm
      the fall away from God was the result of the sin. Yes Satan got it all started by tempting and decieving Eve. We agree with that.

      I say;
      And the sin is the result of Satan temptations. The sin is the result of Satan and the fall is the result of the sin. Is it not wise to fight Satanic temptations which is real and will cause you to sin, and stop wasting your time on the fall, which you are not responsible for?

      On the day of judgement, is it not just for God to judge you on the sin you allowed yourself to do through the temptation of Satan which he did to Jesus Christ, rather than hold you responsible on the fall which you are not responsible?

      If Adam and/or Eve sinned before the fall, was it not unwise to say the fall causes sin rather than Satanic temptations?

      Some food for thought.
      “And if an evil suggestion comes to you from Satan, then seek refuge in Allah . Indeed, He is Hearing and Knowing..” [Quran 7: 200]
      “O Children of Adam! Let not Shaitan (Satan) deceive you, as he got your parents (Adam and Hawwa’ (Eve)) out of Paradise,” (Quran, Surah Al-Aaraf: 27).

      “. . . and follow not the footsteps of ‘Shaitan’ (Satan). Surely he is to you an open enemy” (Quran, Surah Al-Anaam: 142).

      [Quran 2:208] O you who believe, you shall embrace total submission; do not follow the steps of Satan, for he is your most ardent enemy.
      [Quran 6:142] Some livestock supply you with transportation, as well as bedding materials. Eat from God’s provisions to you, and do not follow the steps of Satan; he is your most ardent enemy.
      Satan only wants to cause between you animosity and hatred through intoxicants and gambling and to avert you from the remembrance of Allah and from prayer. So will you not desist?” [Quran, 5: 91]

      When thou dost read the Quran, seek God’s protection from Satan the rejected one. No authority has he over those who believe and put their trust in their Lord. His authority is over those only, who take him as patron and who join partners with God. (16: 98–100)

      Thanks.

      Like

    • i note that adam and eves beliefs in kens pagan fairy tale did not save adam . this means BELIEF cannot save from punishment /divine wrath.

      according to kens belief, adam and eve were punished even though they BELIEVED that kens man god died for their sins..

      beliefs cannot save you according to the genesis story

      ON THE other hand, what do the jews say about adam and eve?

      let us quote them :

      You are right they are not described as any of these things. At the moment they sinned they disregarded the law, so vis-a-vis that one law they were lawless. But we see that they accepted their punishment and they rebelled no more. And Hashem was very kind to them after their sin – He made them clothing (3:21) and gave them a livelihood and a way to support themselves (33:23). So they were only lawless from the time they sinned until they did teshuva. And we know they did teshuva because we don’t see them rebelling again, Hashem has compassion on them and Eve names her son Seth while mentioning God’s name: “25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bore a son, and she called his name Seth: ‘for God hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel; for Cain slew him.’”

      ////////////////

      Like

    • Ken Temple

      You said;
      The only solution is not the external laws and washings of Islam (they cannot change your heart of sinful desires), but you need a new heart (Ezekiel 36:26-27) , you must be born again by God’s Spirit (John 3:1-21; 7:37-39) only by heart repentance/conversion and faith in Jesus

      I say;
      Sinful desires? How about righteous desires? If Jesus is LOVE why will he not change our desires to righteous desires. Even Christians who believed in Jesus still have sinful desires. Who is the one who tempts human including Jesus to act on their sinful desires? Satan of course. Is it not wise to pray and drive Satan away from ones heart rather than waste time on a fall/Adam-Eve that one is not responsible for?
      Question. When one sees an opposite sex and became attracted and a desire to act immorally came to mind but the person prayed and God took away that sinful desire which was whispered by Satan and his lieutenants. Will that person be punished by not acting on his sinful desire? I do not think so.

      So, why waste your time on sinful desire/sinful nature, fall/original sin which you are not responsible for, instead of fighting satanic temptations which is real and haunting us everyday? You are responsible when you allow the temptation of Satan to cause you to act on your sinful desire. You are also responsible if you pray to God to save you from the sinful desire whispered to you by Satan. Not the blood of Jesus Christ.

      You are not responsible on your sinful desires, unless you act on it. You are responsible on your righteous desires and will be rewarded for it, even if you do not act on it. That is Islam.

      In Islam, we always seek refuge in the God of Abraham when Satan tempt us to act on evil desires. When we do not act on it, we are rewarded, If we act on it we are responsible and may be punished without sincere repentance. We have righteous desires too.

      In Islam, just having the righteous desires can earn a good reward for that one who has that thought. Fear Satan and his temptations to act on your sinful desire and not fall/original sin etc. which you are not responsible for.

      Thanks.

      Liked by 1 person

    • “but you need a new heart (Ezekiel 36:26-27) , you must be born again by God’s Spirit (John 3:1-21; 7:37-39) only by heart repentance/conversion and faith in Jesus”

      be born again and do church rituals? new heart? no human should be told that he needs to depend on an external ritual of a god violently killing himself to appease himself. christianity is a religion which depends on sacrificial ritual.

      this guy did not need a new heart

      …Asa’s heart was fully committed to the Lord all his life.

      asa did not need jesus

      Like

  6. True repentance and faith in Christ alone is a surrender to Lord (see Luke 9:23-24), and the results of a true conversion are good works and fruit and change. James is talking about the fruits and results of true faith, not conditions that one has to fulfill first before being accepted by God or loved by God.

    “We are justified by faith alone (Galatians, Romans, John, Acts, Ephesians 2:8-9), but a true faith does not stay alone.” (James 2:14-26; Ephesians 2:10)

    If someone says that they have faith, but no works, no change, no hatred of their own sins, no fear of God, then they really don’t have true faith in Christ.

    But Islamic external rituals like wuzu / wudu / وضوء cannot cleanse the heart. The water & ritual prayers does not reach or cleanse the heart.

    Like

    • Some people have a genetic disposition toward Christian supremacy.

      Like

    • You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. – James 2:24

      Faith alone does not save anyone for even Satan believes in God. Remember?

      The prayer is the means by which a person becomes closer to God. The ritual cleansing prior to this is what prepares the person for what is about to happen. These two things teach us the need to first cleanse ourselves before we can truly encounter the Lord.

      The church has always agreed with this with the baptism.

      Liked by 1 person

    • A better translation of James 2:24 is
      “you see that a person is proven or demonstrated to be righteous by what they do, and not by faith alone.” The greek word, in context of the whole paragraph, demonstrates this, as in Luke 7:35 and Matthew 11:19

      Yet wisdom is vindicated (proven, demonstrated as true) by her deeds.”

      Like

    • no, baptism is after ward, after repentance and faith, not before. Acts 2:38-41 shows this, as does Acts 10:34-48 – faith, repentance, recieving the Holy Spirit happen first, then the baptism, which is a symbol of internal cleansing first. The Roman Catholic Church was wrong in developing the ritual first and baptizing babies, since babies cannot repent and believe.

      This is clear in John the Baptist’s ministry – “after confessing their sins and repenting, they were baptized” Matthew 3, Luke 3, “preaching a baptism symbolizing repentance”

      Like

    • Ken Temple

      If someone says that they have faith, but no works, no change, no hatred of their own sins, no fear of God, then they really don’t have true faith in Christ.

      But Islamic external rituals like wuzu / wudu / وضوء cannot cleanse the heart. The water & ritual prayers does not reach or cleanse the heart.

      I say;
      So, you mean to say when Jesus fell do the ground and pray to his God like Muslims do, is a waste of time by Jesus Christ?
      You mean to say when Jesus taught his disciples to pray “Our Father…” just like Muslims “Fatiha” is a waste of time by Jesus and his disciples?

      You contradicted your theology by your first paragraph above. It means faith alone cannot save Christians except with added works. Islam says faith and work too.

      Thanks.

      Like

    • No, because we know the bowing down that Jesus and others did in the Bible was first from the heart and we do that also, but not a formal ritual of always like required 5 times a day as in Islam. We bow down, and I do that a lot in private at home in prayer, reading the Bible; etc. Many Christians do that – so it is not a waste of time since it was the true religion before Islam. of course we still pray Matthew 6, but not in a rote way like the way you see on TV or that Roman Catholics do – it is a model prayer that we can use as a structure for:
      1. Beginning with Worship – Father, in heaven, You are holy, may Your name be treated as holy . . . etc.
      2. Submission to God’s will
      3. Thanks for God’s provisions and blessings like food and request for it if we need it.
      4. Asking for forgiveness and forgiving others
      5. Asking for Protection from temptation
      6. Praise at the end

      We are free to pray in between each issue in our words; and that is a model prayer, it does not dictate what every single prayer has to be, rather it includes all the main aspects of prayer:
      1. Worship / Praise for Who God is
      like Tasbih تسبیح – worshiping God and praising his attributes.
      2. Confession of Sins
      3. Thanksgiving for His blessings, provisions
      4. Supplication – asking and making our requests known to Him.

      Like

    • No, there is no contradiction in what I wrote.

      Like

    • Ken every major translation of the bible renders the verse exactly as I had quoted it. These translations were done by highly learned scholars in the field.

      All of which disagree with you. Besides this reading lines up perfectly with Jesus’ teaching on salvation found in the case of the rich young ruler.

      Regarding baptism I was staying saying that the ritual represented the same thing as wudu. An act of cleansing meant to represent the individuals own inner cleansing before God of their sins.

      If you dismiss one as useless you are condemning your own religion

      Liked by 1 person

    • “But Islamic external rituals like wuzu / wudu / وضوء cannot cleanse the heart. The water & ritual prayers does not reach or cleanse the heart.”

      so why did yhwh tell the jews to sprinkle blood and cut the necks of animals ? why these repetitive rituals ? none of this animal abuse was reaching the heart even the isaiah says so. so why did the priestly writers become so obsessed with external rituals?

      the priestly writers thought that yhwh liked barbecue. so EXTERNAL rituals were reaching yhwhs SPIRIT.

      the physical was actually inhaled by yhwh .

      water is clean
      john the baptist cleaned jesus from sin
      i think the truth is that jesus got TEMPTED for 40 days and then the ritual of DUNKING took place . i think the gospel writers messed up on the sequence.

      water is clean , be clean like water. have clean thoughts. have clean mind , speak clean. external rituals.

      ot writers did water sports too.

      quite a lot . water reminds ,just as eating and drinking your god reminds you how you can get away with sin by depending on EXTERNAL RITUAL

      reminds .

      Like

    • “We bow down, and I do that a lot in private at home in prayer, reading the Bible; etc. ”

      oh, i get it, you don’t what a ritual in ORDER but a ritual in ANY order?

      Like

    • Ken Temple
      August 17, 2017 • 6:39 pm
      No, because we know the bowing down that Jesus and others did in the Bible was first from the heart and we do that also, but not a formal ritual of always like required 5 times a day as in Islam. We bow down, and I do that a lot in private at home in prayer, reading the Bible; etc. Many Christians do that – so it is not a waste of time since it was the true religion before Islam. of course we still pray Matthew 6, but not in a rote way like the way you see on TV or that Roman Catholics do – it is a model prayer that we can use as a structure for:

      I say;
      You accuse Muslims and Islam of performing rituals. You always do that here without realizing your God Jesus Christ is the master of performing rituals. I pointed our that to you and you now admit that Christians also perform rituals. You are now trying to distinguish them. The thing is rituals are rituals. If you live in a glass house don’t throw stones. Jesus killing himself on the cross as a sacrifice is a ritual just like the pagans sacrifice humans to appease their gods. Do you forget about that?

      You transformed the Jewish ritual of animal sacrifice to sacrificing God himself. That type of sacrifice is a blaspheme.

      Thanks.

      Like

    • Ken Temple
      August 17, 2017 • 6:39 pm
      No, because we know the bowing down that Jesus and others did in the Bible was first from the heart and we do that also, but not a formal ritual of always like required 5 times a day as in Islam. We bow down, and I do that a lot in private at home in prayer, reading the Bible; etc. Many Christians do that – so it is not a waste of time since it was the true religion before Islam. of course we still pray Matthew 6, but not in a rote way like the way you see on TV or that Roman Catholics do – it is a model prayer that we can use as a structure for:

      I say;
      You accuse Muslims and Islam of performing rituals. You always do that here without realizing your God Jesus Christ is the master of performing rituals. I pointed our that to you and you now admit that Christians also perform rituals. You are now trying to distinguish them. The thing is rituals are rituals. If you live in a glass house don’t throw stones. Jesus killing himself on the cross as a sacrifice is a ritual just like the pagans sacrifice humans to appease their gods. Do you forget about that?

      .

      Like

    • You transformed the Jewish ritual of animal sacrifice to sacrificing God himself. That type of sacrifice is a blaspheme.

      Nabeel Quraish lied and Dr. James White attested to that. So, you cannot defend your favorite Christians and chastise those Christians you do not like. That is not how things work. You always call bad Muslims as Muslims here but you do not want us to call bad Christians as Christians. That is not how it works.

      Thanks

      Like


    • You accuse Muslims and Islam of performing rituals. You always do that here without realizing your God Jesus Christ is the master of performing rituals.”

      matthew 8.1-4 “offer the gift that moses commanded”

      harks back to lev 14 10-13

      Like

    • “But Islamic external rituals like wuzu / wudu / وضوء cannot cleanse the heart. The water & ritual prayers does not reach or cleanse the heart.”

      of course it can

      When you spread out your hands in prayer, I hide my eyes from you; even when you offer many prayers, I am not listening. Your hands are full of blood!
      “Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean…”

      stop holding that bloody cross and wash your hands.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Ken Temple

      You said;
      But Islamic external rituals like wuzu / wudu / وضوء cannot cleanse the heart. The water & ritual prayers does not reach or cleanse the heart.

      I say;
      Muslims are followers of Christ and Christians are followers of Paul of Tarsus.

      Why? Muslims wash their feet and fall to the ground and pray like Jesus Christ and Christians like Ken accuses Muslims for doing what Jesus and his disciple did. I think there is Satanic temptations on the part of a Christian who accuses Muslims on rituals that Jesus did.

      John 13:1-17New International Version (NIV)

      Jesus Washes His Disciples’ Feet
      13 It was just before the Passover Festival. Jesus knew that the hour had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end.

      2 The evening meal was in progress, and the devil had already prompted Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, to betray Jesus. 3 Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God; 4 so he got up from the meal, took off his outer clothing, and wrapped a towel around his waist. 5 After that, he poured water into a basin and began to wash his disciples’ feet, drying them with the towel that was wrapped around him.

      6 He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, “Lord, are you going to wash my feet?”

      7 Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand.”

      8 “No,” said Peter, “you shall never wash my feet.”

      Jesus answered, “Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.”

      9 “Then, Lord,” Simon Peter replied, “not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!”

      10 Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.” 11 For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.

      12 When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. “Do you understand what I have done for you?” he asked them. 13 “You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and rightly so, for that is what I am. 14 Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet. 15 I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. 16 Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. 17 Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

      Thanks.

      Like

    • So, you should be willing to accept all of the gospel according to John, since you are using John 13 in that way.

      You need to see the connection between John 13:10-11 and John 15:3 – “You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you”

      John 13:10-11 – “you are clean, but not all of you” (because Judas was not clean, because Judas Iscariot was not a believer in Christ.”

      Acts 15:9 – “cleansing their hearts by faith”

      John 3:3-5 – “you must be born again by the Spirit and water” (water as a symbol of cleansing on the inside, not merely an external ritual – see Ezekiel 36:26-27 – that prophesies about God taking out the heart of stone and giving them a new heart.

      Baptism in water is a symbol of that repentance and cleansing. (Romans 6:1-7; Titus 3:5; Matthew 3:6; Acts 10:42-48)

      Christians – those who have been born again by repentance and faith in Christ alone and His atonement and resurrection and who He really is – the Jesus of the New Testament – Christians are the true followers of Christ (the Messiah), not Muslims who came 600 years later and distorted who Jesus is, and even denied already established history (the crucifixion, death, burial, empty tomb, resurrection of Jesus).

      Like

    • So, are you ready to accept John 1:1-5 and 1:14-18 and
      5:17-18
      8:24
      8:56-58
      10:30
      14:6
      14:9
      18:1-6
      19:1-7
      20:28

      all as true also, since you are using chapter 13 of the gospel according to John?

      Like

    • parts of John are no doubt true, but much is fiction as your own scholars admit Ken.

      Like

    • why do you say “your own scholars” ?
      liberal scholars and those that say parts are fiction are certainly not “my scholars”. the whole Gospel of John is true and “God-breathed” Scripture – 2 Timothy 3:16

      Like

    • yes they are YOUR scholars, who confess the same gospel as you, belive in the same Jesus, but who are honest and truthful in their studies.

      Many of them are impeccably conservative evangelical scholars.

      Ouch!

      Like

    • However you twist Richard Bauckham or F. F. Bruce; Bruce makes it clear that the Holy Spirit is leading the disciples into all the truth about who Jesus is, and the text says that the Holy Spirit will bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you – John 14:26; 15:26-27; 16:12-14.

      All those same scholars – F. F. Bruce, Richard Bauckham, I. Howard Marshall, James D. G. Dunn, believe that Mark 10:45/Matthew 20:28 is the words of Jesus of Nazareth and therefore historical and so, using them to try to cast doubts on the Gospel of John backfires on you, because they are great scholars who would laugh at your doubting of Mark 10:45 / Matthew 20:28 –
      “the son of Man came not to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many”

      This proves the Qur’an is wrong in Surah 4:157

      Like

    • Richard Bauckhan, a favorite of conservative Christians, is quite clear that the author of the fourth gospel put the I AM sayings into Jesus’ mouth. I agree with him. Virtually all scholars agree too.

      OUCH!

      Like

    • Bauckham says that the author was an eyewitness – and the Gospel according to John is centered around private events and Jesus ministry around Jerusalem during the three passovers that He traveled from Galilee into Jerusalem. Since the author is the disciple whom Jesus loved (John 13:23-24; 19:26; 20:2; 21:7-8; 21:20-25, etc. and the fact that Peter and John are with each other in these passages – as in they both getting to the empty tomb together in John 20:1-10, – all this together shows that the author is an eyewitness of a lot more private things and details that the other gospel writers do not record (Matthew, Mark, Luke), but are complimentary and not contradictory, since the author seems fully aware of the other gospels and therefore does not repeat a lot of their details.

      But all 4 gospels have the arrest, trials, crucifixion, death, burial, empty tomb, and resurrection. (which totally defeats Islam and proves it is a false religion)

      Like

    • Baukham says John put words (the I am sayings ) into Jesus’ mouth. It is irrelevant if he is an eye-witness.

      This fact is very disturbing to ur religious ideology. I know what it feels like having been in your shoes Ken.

      Like

    • It seems you are the one who has struggled a lot with doubt, deleting two whole web-sites, leaving Islam for a few days; announcing you are no longer going to do this blog, and later changing your mind and coming back to this blog. (which I am glad; I enjoy interacting with you here and with other Muslims) – but it seems you are the one who gives evidence of a great internal struggle.

      Also, announcing that you were not going to attack Christianity and the Bible any more as your main thing, per advice from Timothy Winter, but then later going back on that and deleting that post.

      I wonder who is the one who is disturbed and struggles internally more?

      Both Bauckham and F. F. Bruce still believe the gospel of John is the Holy Spirit leading and guiding the author to write these things.

      I think they reveal that these saying were more private and the author of John’s gospel brings them out because he knows the other 3 gospels don’t have those details.

      Like

    • lol Ken, I never claimed not to have struggles.

      You avoid the fact that your own scholars such as Richard Baukham have been forced to conclude that John puts words into Jesus’ mouth. Words the historical Jesus did not say. This is dynamite!

      As a Christian these facts helped to destroy my evangelical faith.

      Like

    • which means you never had real faith in Christ in the first place.

      you pick and choose and cannot deal with the fact that those scholars who doubt the “I am” statements as verbatim historical are using Mark, Matthew, Luke as more original and more historical, but you then turn around and reject Mark 10:45 / Matthew 20:28 – which destroys all of Islam as true.

      Mark 10:45 is dynamite against your Islamic faith!

      along with Mark 14:24 (blood of the covenant for the forgiveness of sins, with Matthew 26:28

      and

      Mark 14:60-64 shows Jesus is God and the high priests reaction prove this.

      Like

    • I didn’t say you claimed to not have struggles. You seem to be projecting by saying things like the Bauckham statement about the I am statements is disturbing to me. No, it is not disturbing, since John’s gospel is also inspired Scripture, (john 3:16) and the Holy Spirit brought to their remembrance everything jesus said – John 14:26: 15:16; 16:12-13 and led them into all the truth.

      Boom !!

      Bauckham nor F. F. Bruce’s statements, don’t go as far as you are taking them to be; since they affirm the eyewitness testimony and the Holy Spirit leading the author to write those words.

      Jesus said “I am” in Mark 6:50, and they worshipped Jesus as the Son of God in Matthew 14:33.

      It is possible Jesus spoke the I am statements in more private meetings with John paying more attention than the rest; and the fact that that the synoptics also say, “they did not understand yet”

      Like

    • No, it is not disturbing, since John’s gospel is also inspired Scripture, (2 Timothy 3:16)

      Like

    • Ken Temple

      You said;
      But Islamic external rituals like wuzu / wudu / وضوء cannot cleanse the heart. The water & ritual prayers does not reach or cleanse the heart.

      I say;
      Muslims are followers of Christ and Christians are followers of Paul of Tarsus.

      Why? Muslims wash their feet and fall to the ground and pray like Jesus Christ and Christians like Ken accuses Muslims for doing what Jesus and his disciple did. I think there is Satanic temptations on the part of a Christian who accuses Muslims on rituals that Jesus did.

      John 13:1-17New International Version (NIV)

      Jesus Washes His Disciples’ Feet
      13 It was just before the Passover Festival. Jesus knew that the hour had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end.

      Like

    • 2 The evening meal was in progress, and the devil had already prompted Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, to betray Jesus. 3 Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God; 4 so he got up from the meal, took off his outer clothing, and wrapped a towel around his waist. 5 After that, he poured water into a basin and began to wash his disciples’ feet, drying them with the towel that was wrapped around him.

      6 He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, “Lord, are you going to wash my feet?”

      7 Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand.”

      8 “No,” said Peter, “you shall never wash my feet.”

      Jesus answered, “Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.”

      9 “Then, Lord,” Simon Peter replied, “not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!”

      10 Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.” 11 For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.

      12 When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. “Do you understand what I have done for you?” he asked them. 13 “You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and rightly so, for that is what I am. 14 Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet. 15 I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. 16 Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. 17 Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

      Thanks.

      Like

    • Ken Temple

      “2 The evening meal was in progress, and the devil had already prompted Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, to betray Jesus.”

      The above verse is from the Bible and it is in my reply to you. Do you realize the devil prompting Judas to betray Jesus?

      Nothing about sinful nature/fall/original sin etc. that you so cherish Ken, that prompted Judas to sin by betraying Jesus but the devil/Satan is clearly mentioned that tempted Judas to sin against Jesus Christ.

      Why keep worrying us about sinful nature/fall/original sin etc. that we are not responsible of? rather than to preach to us about the dangers of Satan/Satanic temptations which are real and still going on and happened to Jesus Christ and all prophets and that is the cause of sin and not fall/sinful nature/original sin/Adam/Eve etc.

      Ken, fear Satan and accept the Islamic truth that God of Abraham, Jesus, Mohammed etc. is Only, one and alone and not the temptations of satan to divide, add, multiply God in to 3 persons and every person is a being and no person can be a person without being a being, and so worshiping 3 persons is worshiping 3 beings and that is polytheism and/or idolatry.

      Fight Satan and his temptations which is real and forget about sinful nature/fall/Adam/Eve which do not bother us but Satan and his temptations.

      Thanks.

      Like

    • Intellect
      August 18, 2017 • 4:31 pm
      Ken Temple
      August 17, 2017 • 6:39 pm
      No, because we know the bowing down that Jesus and others did in the Bible was first from the heart and we do that also, but not a formal ritual of always like required 5 times a day as in Islam.

      I say;
      Who told you is not from the heart when Muslims pray? I can also say, it is not from their hearts when Christians pray. You are a grown up and not a child and so stop saying things that can be said to you.

      Ken Temple
      August 17, 2017 • 6:27 pm
      the fall away from God was the result of the sin. Yes Satan got it all started by tempting and decieving Eve. We agree with that.

      I say;
      Satan still tempt us today, and so to say he just started it(temptations) and blame the ongoing sins of the world to sinful nature/fall/Adam/Eve/Original sin, instead of Satan and his temptations is satanic temptations and sin by itself.

      Thanks.

      Like

    • Ken Temple

      You said;
      Christians – those who have been born again by repentance and faith in Christ alone and His atonement and resurrection and who He really is – the Jesus of the New Testament – Christians are the true followers of Christ (the Messiah), not Muslims who came 600 years later and distorted who Jesus is, and even denied already established history (the crucifixion, death, burial, empty tomb, resurrection of Jesus).

      I say;
      My dear Reverend. Think very well. Your statement above has contradicted your theology.
      Why?
      Your first sentence is, and I cut and paste

      “Christians – those who have been born again by repentance and faith in Christ alone….”

      “born again by repentance and in faith in Christ…” means not faith alone but repentance just like anyone who has faith is not enough but repentance in addition. So, you cannot be faith alone because you need repentance like anyone else. That is why Christians will cry for repentance when they sin. They consciously knew the blood of Jesus alone cannot save them unless they repent. So, it is not faith alone.

      Thanks.

      Like

    • Mark 1:15 “repent and believe”

      Acts 2:38 – “repent . . . and be baptized”

      Acts 15:9 – “cleansing their hearts by faith”

      Acts 13:38-39 – forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you; whoever believes is justified / freed

      Acts 11:18 – “Well, God has granted to the Gentiles, the repentance that leads to life”

      Acts 16:31 – “believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved . . . ”

      The author of Acts, Luke, obviously believed repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin in heart conversion.

      Like

    • Ken Temple

      You said;
      Christians – those who have been born again by repentance and faith in Christ alone and His atonement and resurrection and who He really is – the Jesus of the New Testament – Christians are the true followers of Christ (the Messiah), not Muslims who came 600 years later and distorted who Jesus is, and even denied already established history (the crucifixion, death, burial, empty tomb, resurrection of Jesus).

      I say;
      My dear Reverend. Think very well. Your statement above has contradicted your theology.
      Why?
      Your first sentence is, and I cut and paste

      “Christians – those who have been born again by repentance and faith in Christ alone….”

      I see the above as not faith alone but repentance in addition to the faith just like every religion has repentance and faith in their religion. Why lie and follow Paul of Tarsus “faith alone” ? but add repentance?

      Thanks.

      Like

    • the doctrine of justification by faith alone does not mean “without repentance”, rather “alone” meant, “apart from the merit and conditions of Good works”. Repentance has always been understood as part of true faith in Christ. one must realize they are a sinner and turn from their own righteousness, which is filthy rags, turning from from selfishness/ sins, and turn to Christ in faith. Mark 1:15 – “repent and believe”. Acts 2:38; 3:19; 26:20 ; Acts 11:18

      Like

    • Ken Temple

      So, are you ready to accept John 1:1-5 and 1:14-18 and
      5:17-18
      8:24
      8:56-58
      10:30
      14:6
      14:9
      18:1-6
      19:1-7
      20:28

      all as true also, since you are using chapter 13 of the gospel according to John?

      I say;

      “there is no one like Yahweh our God.” Exodus 8:10
      “Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35
      “Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
      “See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
      “Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
      “You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22
      “For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?” 2 Samuel 22:32
      “Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
      “You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
      “O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
      “You alone [bad] are Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6

      I say;
      Will you accept the above verses from the Jewish Bible that came before the new Testament which never mentioned “3 persons 1 God” in the nature of God and discard your believe in “3 persons 1 God”?

      Thanks.

      Like

    • We already believe in all those OT verses, as there is only one God. the doctrine of the Trinity does not contradict those; as the doctrine is “one God in three persons” (Father, Son, Holy Spirit)

      Like

    • ” and even denied already established history (the crucifixion, death, burial, empty tomb, resurrection of Jesus)”

      did the other two get a decent burial like jesus? it is this question which caused mark to invent the empty tomb. mark was no eyewitness to burial or crucifixion. nobody could have known anything about crucifixion and burial by the time mark was writing. even paul does not tell us in his words who buried and where crucifixion took place.

      Like

    • Mark is writing for Peter, who was a eyewitness of the life of Jesus, etc. Peter “followed from a distance” – Mark 14:54

      Like

    • we have no proof that ‘Mark is writing for Peter’

      Liked by 1 person

    • early church testimony is sound and historical – Papias, Irenaeus, etc.

      Like

    • LOL Most scholars today consider Papias to be a very unreliable person and discount virtually everything he writes.

      Liked by 1 person

    • I have seen your past articles linking to Bart Ehrman criticizing Papias, but where do you get “most scholars consider Papias to be a very unreliable person”, etc. ?

      Like

    • Bart Ehrman, a specialist historian in the field, says regarding Papias’ claims about Matthew’s gospel:

      ‘Papias does not seem to provide us with the kind of information we can place a lot of confidence in. I should point out, in this connection, that scholars have almost uniformly ejected just about everything else that Papias is recorded to have said in the surviving references to his work.’

      Liked by 1 person

    • “Mark is writing for Peter, who was a eyewitness of the life of Jesus, etc. Peter “followed from a distance” – Mark 14:54”

      it was too dangerous. if peter would have hung around, he would have been identified and probably executed. he just had an experience of being IDENTIFIED by a woman(mark 14:66) , would he be dumb and risk getting identified again by a group of crowds?

      if peter was really reporter then,
      carefully compare how luke has his jesus TREAT peter VS how mark has his jesus TREAT peter, make note that in lukes version it give the impresion that jesus was showing redemption to peter , in mark we have peter getting cursed by jesus. the last thing peter remembers is not the resurrection , but his FAILURE.

      And “they said nothing to anyone…”

      implies no man joined them at the tomb.

      Like

    • “Mark is writing for Peter, who was a eyewitness of the life of Jesus, etc. Peter “followed from a distance” – Mark 14:54”

      btw, the EARLIEST evidence show no indication that jay of a buried jesus . it shows no indication by WHOM jesus was crucified. it seems to be a BELIEF. so i tell you that rabbi W got buried, you would probably assume a jewish BURIAL, so it seems like this is the case with early christians. it was just a BELIEF and mark had to fill in the details.

      it was easy for paul to identify pontius pilate and jay of a, he REPEATED names when he PARROTED the creed, why did he leave out jay of a and p pilate?

      because he had NO KNOWLEDGE.

      Like

    • Bart Ehrman, a specialist historian in the field, says regarding Papias’ claims about Matthew’s gospel:

      ‘Papias does not seem to provide us with the kind of information we can place a lot of confidence in. I should point out, in this connection, that scholars have almost uniformly ejected just about everything else that Papias is recorded to have said in the surviving references to his work.’

      AND

      If scholars are inclined to discount what Papias says in virtually every other instance, why is it that they sometimes appeal to his witness in order to show that we have an early tradition that links Matthew to one of our Gospels, and Mark to another? Why do these scholars accept some of what Papias said but not all of what he said? I suspect it is because they want to have support for their own points of view (Matthew really wrote Matthew) and have decided to trust Papias when he confirms their views, and not trust him when he does not.
      The result of this quick examination of Papias is, I think, that he passes on stories that he has heard, and he attributes them to people who knew other people who said so. But when he can be checked, he appears to be wrong. Can he be trusted in the places that he cannot be checked? If you have a friend who is consistently wrong when he gives directions to places you are familiar with, do you trust him when he gives directions for someplace you’ve never been?

      (Jesus, Interrupted, pp. 109-110)

      Liked by 1 person

    • “Mark is writing for Peter, who was a eyewitness of the life of Jesus, etc. Peter “followed from a distance” – Mark 14:54”

      QUOTE :

      In Mark, ostensibly the earliest, the story goes that the disciples ‘all left him and fled’ in the garden. A young man following Jesus’s captors was seized and escaped naked. Peter is afraid to admit to knowing Jesus. While at Jesus’s crucifixion, only women are mentioned, “And there were also women looking on from afar.” “And Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of Joses were looking on where Jesus was laid.” Any subsequent empty tomb story would therefore be limited to women, since we are told in the earliest Gospel that the men fled.

      In Matthew, ‘all the disciples left him and fled,’ adding at the crucifixion that ‘many women were looking on from a distance.’ And when Joseph sealed Jesus’s grave, “Mary Magdalene was there, and the other Mary, sitting opposite the grave.” Only women again.

      Luke is the first to omit that the disciples all fled at Jesus’s arrest. But he does note that it was “the women [who] followed after, and saw the tomb and how His body was laid,” i.e., women again, who saw where Jesus was buried. [Luke 24:12 about ‘Peter running to the tomb’ is a later insertion that does not appear in the earliest manuscripts.]

      John, the last Gospel written, bursts this mold open. The women are no longer watching the crucifixion ‘at a distance’ as in Mark and Matthew, but ‘they were standing by the cross of Jesus,’ and now there is also at least one man with them. This is a necessary redaction, since John has two men race each other to the tomb once Mary Magdalene tells the disciples it is empty, and they couldn’t run there unless they knew where it was, and they couldn’t know unless they had attended the crucifixion, which John says they did.

      I would say the earliest version of the empty tomb story had to employ women (see Mark above about the men ‘all’ having ‘fled’). And the earliest story about the women ‘not telling anyone’ (in Mark) explains the relatively late appearance of the legend of the empty tomb, i.e., ‘no one’ was ‘told,’ nor heard, about an empty tomb until later. The empty tomb legend only arose after various ‘appearance’ stories, like those related by Paul (who does not mention an ‘empty tomb’) had already spread.

      Like

    • “Jesus said “I am” in Mark 6:50, and they worshipped Jesus as the Son of God in Matthew 14:33.”

      TREBLE BOOM

      http://www.postost.net/2016/04/explicit-implicit-christologies-mark

      Like

    • Ken Temple
      August 24, 2017 • 2:12 pm
      We already believe in all those OT verses, as there is only one God. the doctrine of the Trinity does not contradict those; as the doctrine is “one God in three persons” (Father, Son, Holy Spirit

      I say;
      That is what most idol worshipers say. They believed their God is more persons but one God. Will you believe in Mormons multipersons God? Yes, because just like how I believed I and Jews, Unitarian Christians believed in one God who is not counted in persons, you must also believe your multipersons God is the same concept as Mormons and some idol worshipers.

      Thanks.

      Like

    • You don’t know much about Mormonism, obviously.

      Like

  7. ken, i just heard your dr white say “we love our sin we love our rebellion”
    ken, christians don’t even know if what deed they think is good is really good because it could be your sin nature DECEIVING you. your dr is confirming that what may appear to be good to you is actually your love of sin. dr white says he loves his sins and he loves his rebellion .

    Like

    • “we love our sin, we love our rebellion” – he is talking about all humans without Christ, all who are not born-again and it includes all people before they come to faith in Christ. “we” meaning all of us humans, including me, if I was without God’s grace in being born – again.

      Romans 3:9-23

      9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

      10 as it is written,

      “There is none righteous, not even one;
      11 There is none who understands,
      There is none who seeks for God;
      12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
      There is none who does good,
      There is not even one.”
      13 “Their throat is an open grave,
      With their tongues they keep deceiving,”
      “The poison of asps is under their lips”;
      14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;
      15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood,
      16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,
      17 And the path of peace they have not known.”
      18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
      19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;

      20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

      21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
      22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
      23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

      Like

    • Temple do you have to turn every thread into a humanophobe pulpit?

      Liked by 1 person

    • he is a spiritual masochist

      Like

    • Sado- masochist me thinks.

      Liked by 1 person

  8. I am sorry for your struggle. I am sorry you are in pain daily. I turn my face to Ka’aba and I pray for us all, all us queers whom He made. I disagree wholeheartedly with your stance, and I too respect you as a human, and I love you for Allah’s sake. My life has been blessed with love and understanding, and I make myself slowly and falteringly towards Allah. I won’t give you arguments about why I think you are not a sinner and don’t have to live like this—I can tell that you know them already. All I will say is may Allah find us all at His door at the end, show us our errors and forgive them. Ameen. May you see the face of Allah in everything, including your love, every day. Ameen.

    وَلِلَّهِ الْمَشْرِقُ وَالْمَغْرِبُ ۚ فَأَيْنَمَا تُوَلُّوا فَثَمَّ وَجْهُ اللَّهِ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ وَاسِعٌ عَلِيمٌ – 2:115

    Liked by 1 person

    • “I disagree wholeheartedly with your stance”.

      Why?

      Liked by 1 person

    • Because Allah made us. Because for this to be a trial, Allah would have to be cruel (n’auzubillah) and that Allah is not. Because the curse of Lut’s (as) people was not their same sex desire, but their humiliation and cruelty towards others. Because of a lot of things… but I don’t proselytize and it’s not in my nature. Like I said, I read your post, it touched me and I had a dua to share. W’Allahu ‘Alim.

      Like

    • Yet the Quran and Sunnah clearly prohibit homoseual acts. All scholars agree on this. By what authority do you overturn Qur’an, sunnah and the consensus of scholars?

      Like

    • I’m not engaging this long debate, friend. I had a dua, I gave it. Wassalam.

      Like

    • I see. There is simply no debate dude.

      Just remember that for someone to justify and approve of what is clearly prohibited in the Qur’an puts one outside of the fold of Islam.

      Like

  9. Burhanuddin1
    wrote:

    Temple do you have to turn every thread into a humanophobe pulpit?

    There is nothing about an irrational fear/phobia of humans there; rather is about the reality of the sinfulness of all humans.

    Even the Qur’an acknowledges this in Surah 16:61

    SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
    And if Allah were to impose blame on the people for their wrongdoing, He would not have left upon the earth any creature, but He defers them for a specified term. And when their term has come, they will not remain behind an hour, nor will they precede [it].

    Also Surah 33:72 – “man/ human-kind – Al Insan الانسان is unjust (ظلوما from ظلم = oppression, injustice and ignorant. جهولا”

    إِنَّا عَرَضْنَا الْأَمَانَةَ عَلَى السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَالْجِبَالِ فَأَبَيْنَ أَن يَحْمِلْنَهَا وَأَشْفَقْنَ مِنْهَا وَحَمَلَهَا الْإِنسَانُ ۖ إِنَّهُ كَانَ ظَلُومًا جَهُولًا – 33:72

    Like

    • Please don’t abuse al Quran for your exclusivist humanophobe minority theology.

      God’s mercy encompasses everything.

      Liked by 2 people

    • ‘exclusivist humanophobe minority theology’ – aka Calvinism.

      Liked by 1 person

    • I did not abuse the Qu’ran, it clearly says

      “And if Allah were to impose blame on the people for their wrongdoing, He would not have left upon the earth any creature, . . . ”

      “people” = humans – الناس and “wrongdoing” = “oppression”, “injustice” – from the Zolm root ظلم

      you did not deal with what the Qu’ran says there in Surah 16:61 – If Allah were to call to account humans for their sins, there would be no human creature left on earth.

      Like

    • Islam does not believe in the unJewish doctrine of original sin. It is a man-made doctrine not taught by Jesus.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Jesus taught it clearly in:
      matthew 7:11
      “If you being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children . . . ”

      Matthew 5:21-26
      roots of murder are hatred and sinful anger and unforgiveness in the heart

      Roots of physical adultery are lusts and sexual fantasies in the heart – Matthew 5:27-30

      Mark 7:20-23 / Matthew 15:18-20
      Roots of all external sins are the evil thoughts and motives in the heart

      20 “And He was saying, “That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23 All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”

      Clearly, Jesus taught it, as did the Tanakh – Genesis 6:5; 8:21; Jeremiah 17:9, Psalm 51:4-5; Psalm 58:3; 1 Kings 8:38 “each man knowing the affliction of his own heart”; 1 Kings 8:46 – “for there is no man who does not sin”

      Like

    • which human is born with adultery, fornication, murder and hate? nobody learns this stuff from their mothers womb.

      and since mary nursed jesus , then the milk is what helped jesus grow. jesus is according to the orginal sin, stained with adultery, fornication, murder and hate. the milk which help jesus grow contained all the evils of original sin.

      Like

    • “There is nothing about an irrational fear/phobia of humans there; rather is about the reality of the sinfulness of all humans.”

      so why don’t you go kill a goat ?
      or ask for death because your future sins have already been washed in blood so i guess you just want to confidently continue in your sins.

      Like

    • Ken Temple
      August 24, 2017 • 5:56 pm
      I did not abuse the Qu’ran, it clearly says

      “And if Allah were to impose blame on the people for their wrongdoing, He would not have left upon the earth any creature, . . . ”

      “people” = humans – الناس and “wrongdoing” = “oppression”, “injustice” – from the Zolm root ظلم

      you did not deal with what the Qu’ran says there in Surah 16:61 – If Allah were to call to account humans for their sins, there would be no human creature left on earth.

      I say;
      No Muslim or any scholar who knows classical and Quranic Arabic ever believed the above is about original sin. It is not.

      Why?

      The Quran emphasis on temptations of Satan as he did to Jesus Christ and all prophets and still does to all humans is the source of sin and not sinful nature/Adam/Eve/Fall/original sin etc. which we have no control of. We can control the temptations of Satan by following God’s guidance but we are not the have no control of our nature/fall/Adam/Eve/original sin etc.

      The Quran also says;
      36:60
      Sahih International: Did I not enjoin upon you, O children of Adam, that you not worship Satan – [for] indeed, he is to you a clear enemy –

      “Get you down (upon the earth), all of you together, from Paradise, some of you are an enemy to some others. Then, if there comes to you guidance from Me, whoever follows My Guidance shall neither go astray, nor fall into distress and misery.” (Quran 20:123)

      Like

    • “Even the Qur’an acknowledges”
      It seems that exactly what happened to the gospel of Jesus when it’s recited to the Greco-Roman culture.
      Maybe that why Arabic has been chosen by Allah(sw) to be the language of his last revelation.

      Like

  10. Jesus’ divine nature protected Him from the sinful nature and He was perfect, sinless, God in the flesh.

    Jesus was sinless.
    John 8:46
    2 Cor. 5:21
    Hebrews 4:15
    Hebrews 7:26

    Like

    • Adam was sinless before he fell. Mary was sinless too according to most Christians

      Like

    • Mary was not sinless. The earliest church fathers and writers did not believe that Roman Catholic doctrine. Tertullian, Origen, John Chrysostom, Irenaeus, Basil of Caesarea

      J. N. D. Kelly, one of the greatest Patristic scholars of all:

      “In contrast to the later belief in her [Mary] moral and spiritual perfection, none of these theologians had the least scruple about attributing faults to her. Irenaeus and Tertullian recalled occasions on which, as they read the gospel stories, she had earned her Son’s rebuke, and Origen insisted that, like all human beings, she needed redemption from her sins; in particular, he interpreted Simeon’s prophecy (Luke 2, 35) that a sword would pierce her soul as confirming that she had been invaded with doubts when she saw her Son crucified” (J. N. D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines, [HarperOne, 1978], p. 493).

      Concerning Origen’s comments Kelly cites his work Homilies on Luke, 17. Romanist scholar Ludwig Ott gave an important admission stating, “individual Greek Fathers (Origen, St. Basil, St. John Chrysostom, St. Cyril of Alexandria) taught that Mary suffered from venial personal faults, such as ambition and vanity, doubt about the message of the Angel, and lack of faith under the Cross” (Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, [Tan Books and Publishers, 1960], p. 203).

      and more top Patristic scholars:

      Moreover, church historian Philip Schaff relayed that Irenaeus “was still widely removed from the notion of the sinlessness of Mary, and expressly declares the answer of Christ in John ii. 4, to be a reproof of her premature haste” (Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, vol. 3, [Hendrickson, 2011], p. 415). He also remarked, “In the same way Tertullian, Origen, Basil the Great, and even Chrysostom, with all their high esteem of the mother of our Lord, ascribe to her on one or two occasions (John ii. 3; Matt. Xiii. 47) maternal vanity, also doubt and anxiety, and make this the sword (Luke ii. 35) which, under the cross, passed through her soul” (Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, vol. 3, [Hendrickson, 2011], pp. 415-416).

      From Keith Thompson’s article
      http://www.reformedapologeticsministries.com/2013/10/the-early-church-did-not-believe-romes.html

      Like

    • Most christians today disagree. They are led by your holy spirit too.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Majority does not prove truth. That is clearly a later developed doctrine that was only proclaimed a dogma by the Roman Catholic Church in 1854 – wow! Very later indeed !

      The quotes from the Patistric scholars and the earlier writers and fathers prove you and all those “majority” (if that is even true) wrong.

      Like

    • “Jesus’ divine nature protected Him from the sinful nature and He was perfect, sinless, God in the flesh.”

      according to the old testament that is a LIE

      Job 25:4- How then can man be in the right before God? How can he who is born of woman be pure?

      and since adam had no parents, divine nature could not PROTECT adam, so what CHANCE did jesus have. his MILK came from original sin.

      Like

    • Adam and Eve were tempted from the outside by Satan to get everything started.

      As Augustine said, “By the evil use of his free will; man destroyed his free will.”

      and afterward,
      James 1:13-14 tells us “but each one is tempted and drawn away by his own lusts . . . ”

      Like

    • “Adam and Eve were tempted from the outside by Satan to get everything started.”

      jesus was tempted from the inside by satan

      what difference does it make?

      divine nature loses power from protecting from the outside?

      “As Augustine said, “By the evil use of his free will; man destroyed his free will.”

      what was the divine nature doing? watching? if it could protect jesus’ free will, why not adams?

      your god is biased?

      “and afterward,
      James 1:13-14 tells us “but each one is tempted and drawn away by his own lusts . . . ”

      what was the divine nature doing ? what lust? they DIDN’T even know good from bad

      here is proof

      Then the Lord God said, “See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”

      see? they didn’t even KNOW. they ONLY knew after they eat

      btw what is a magical tree which gives eternal life doing in the garden? i thought only god gives eternal life lol

      Like

    • “Jesus’ divine nature protected Him from the sinful nature and He was perfect, sinless, God in the flesh.”

      the flesh was completely SEPARATE from the divine nature. there was no mixture, fusion and neither “FELT ” the other. since god LOSES power to protect from the “outside” (whatever that means) WHAT CHANCES did jesus have? was jesus’ flesh INSIDE divine nature? if not, what CHANCE did jesus have?

      Like

    • “Jesus’ divine nature protected Him from the sinful nature and He was perfect, sinless, God in the flesh.”

      so what was god doing for adam? brand NEW creation? why didn’t he go in adams flesh?
      let me see, lets say that the flesh of jesus was tested at the garden, you would have jesus pass with flying colours because “god in the flesh”
      what about poor old adam?

      Like

    • like burhanuddin said, you are a HUMANPHOBE
      why do you even trust any of peters testimony

      https://turchisrong.blogspot.co.uk/2017/08/james-patrick-holdings-intentional.html

      why do you trust solomon
      moses
      or any jewish writer of ot
      these are all stained with sins and they get away with the filthiest crimes.

      Like

    • “Majority does not prove truth. That is clearly a later developed doctrine that was only proclaimed a dogma by the Roman Catholic Church in 1854 – wow! Very later indeed !”

      god was in the flesh of mary, he protected her from sins. god divinized all of mary.

      Like

    • “Jesus’ divine nature protected Him from the sinful nature and He was perfect, sinless, God in the flesh.”

      so what we learn here is that god always comes to the rescue of jesus when jesus has a dirty thought, gay/straight thought, lustful thought, anger thought etc etc

      what good is it for humans to know this? you god is rigging the game for himself . we usually learn from people who have actual experience of sin. they can tell us how to avoid it next time, your god is boasting

      “i stopped myself lusting over x every time i had a lustful flashing thought”

      so he would never have EXPERIENTIAL knowledge. so what good is your god ?

      Like

    • normal human “this is how i handled my sinful thought”

      jesus, “i had a sinful thought and my divine nature stepped in”

      this is a god rigging the game. is a god who is rigging the game really understand the human condition?

      Like

  11. Ken,
    Jesus had never taught your prophet Paul’s teachings.
    Jesus had been affirming the rituals of Torah and giving more emphasis for the meanings and intentions behind those acts. He was warning jews who lacked the great meanings of those acts.

    I’ll give you an example form the the prophet ﷺ whom you have to follow for he ﷺ is the Spirit of truth which will guide you into all the truth, for he doesn’t speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears, he speaks, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

    The prophetﷺ said regarding Fasting ” If one does not eschew lies and false conduct, Allah has no need that he should abstain from his food and his drink.” Sahih Bukhari.

    You ‘ll not find any Islamic scholar understanding that hadith by saying that we no more need to fast Ramadan. We just need to be truthful! No! They would be another version of your false prophet Paul who had many issues with the perfect law of Allah in Torah even before Jesus. He just took an advantage with Roman people to express his filthy tongue against the law of God.

    Like

    • Thanks.

      Ken Temple
      August 24, 2017 • 5:56 pm
      I did not abuse the Qu’ran, it clearly says

      “And if Allah were to impose blame on the people for their wrongdoing, He would not have left upon the earth any creature, . . . ”

      “people” = humans – الناس and “wrongdoing” = “oppression”, “injustice” – from the Zolm root ظلم

      you did not deal with what the Qu’ran says there in Surah 16:61 – If Allah were to call to account humans for their sins, there would be no human creature left on earth.

      I say;
      No Muslim or any scholar who knows classical and Quranic Arabic ever believed the above is about original sin. It is not.

      Why?

      The Quran emphasis is on temptations of Satan as he did to Jesus Christ and all prophets and still does to all humans is the source of sin and not sinful nature/Adam/Eve/Fall/original sin etc. which we have no control of. We can control the temptations of Satan by following God’s guidance but we are not the have no control of our nature/fall/Adam/Eve/original sin etc.

      Like

    • Ken Temple

      Are you responsible with your nature which you did not create? No
      Are you responsible with Adam/Eve fall where you are not present? No\
      Are you responsible for not following God’s guidance and allowing the satan/evil temptations to cause you to sin? Yeees Sir. No? Ken Temple. If you cannot answer all just answer the third question for me and the game will be over.

      We have the freewill and choice to choose to disobey God or obey God and follow the truth against falsehood. Satan is there tempting us everyday like he did to Jesus Christ your God and the prophets. Won’t you fear Satan and his temptations and stop depending on fall/sinful nature/Adam/Eve/original sin which you have no control of?

      Christians hardly mention Satan and his temptations which is real and the source of sin but waste time talking about sinful nature and forgetting about righteous nature.

      The good and bad natures are for us to choose. Satan and his temptations is always leading us to the sinful nature and we have to fear satan and his temptations that lead us to follow the sinful nature and away from the righteous nature or righteousness rather than the natures themselves which is how we are created.

      Depending on our choice, Christians or Muslims do sinful things as is witnessed everyday but some idol worshipers or atheists can do good things that are not sin. So, the blood of Jesus cannot wash sins but satan is the source of sin as he started it.

      Thanks.

      Like

  12. Ken Temple

    You said;
    “Jesus’ divine nature protected Him from the sinful nature and He was perfect, sinless, God in the flesh.”

    I say;
    I see. Jesus Christ’s human nature is not Almighty God and cannot protect himself or itself from sin. His divine nature is God and protected him from sin. So, Christians are worshiping Jesus Christ’s human nature that is not Almighty God and cannot protect Jesus from sin means worshiping a being and is polytheism and/or idolatry.

    It is just like Hindus, voodoos, Rastafarians and other idol worshipers worshiping the elephant nature, human nature, monkey nature, snake nature, cow natures etc. of their Gods and idols. The same concept with anyone who worships Jesus Christ as 2 natures. Any concept of worshiping things that is visible like Jesus is idolatry because the Bible says God is invincible.

    Thanks.

    Like

    • There is nothing to proof Jesus is God except some Christians like Ken Temple’s belief. It is the same like Hindus cow Gods that are cows and nothing to prove the cows are God.

      Hindus saying a cow is God or Christians saying Jesus Christ is God based on their belief is not a proof but believes.

      Christians will say Jesus raises the dead. And so what? The Bible said, that miracle was done by God through Jesus like Moses and other prophets did miracles.

      Christians will say. It is only Jesus that can do what God can do i.e. raise the dead. The Christians don’t think very well on this. Dajjal can raise the dead. Is Dajjal God?
      There are so many pastors like T.B. Joshua on youtube claiming to raise the dead. Will you worship T.B. Joshua and others who claim to have raised the dead?

      Thanks.

      Like

  13. Correction: There is nothing to prove….. not proof.

    Like

  14. Ken Temple
    August 17, 2017 • 12:48 pm
    Homosexuality as an orientation is a disorder in one’s fitrah (human nature and disposition).

    The Christian theology of original sin and the fall of mankind explains this disorder – as with all other sinful disposition patterns in the thoughts and imaginations – some people have a genetic disposition toward alcoholism and other drug addictions, some others to food and gluttony, some to laziness, some to anger, some to self-pity and selfish depression, some to arrogant pride, etc. – the same sex desires are not ok, and neither are the other sins. Jesus taught about the root internal sins of anger and hatred that lead to murder (Matthew 5:21-26) and the root internal sins of lusts that lead to adultery. (Matthew 5:27-30)

    I say;
    Jesus was very angry to some people and ransacked their tables and chairs. Jesus caused disorderly conduct and property damage which would have landed him in jail today. Jesus out of anger insulted a woman as dog because of her race and ethnicity. That could have landed him in jail today as well. Jesus wants his enemies to be killed and will have terrorism charge today. So Jesus sinned because anger, selfishness, racism, terrorism etc. exhibited by Jesus Christ is sin according to the above paragraph by Ken Temple.

    Thanks.

    Like

    • Ken Temple

      The concept of original sin is a lie according to the Bible.

      New International Version
      The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them

      -By repenting without the blood of Jesus, one is saved according to the Bible.

      Study Bible
      The Soul who Sins will Die
      19″Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity?’ When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live. 20″The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the sKen Temple

      The on’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself. 21″But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.…
      New American Standard Bible

      Thanks.

      Like

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  1. When You’re Gay and Muslim – Finding Allah’s Meaning in All of It — Blogging Theology – Oppose Hate Politics

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