Jason Thomas starts with the idea of the Holy Ghost in Islam and Paul Williams compares Dante’s Divine Comedy with the early Church understanding of hell/purgatory and then contrasts this with the Islamic variant!
Categories: Bible, Biblical scholarship, Catholicism, God, History, Islam, Jesus, Judaism, The Gospel of Jesus
Blogging Theology 
Great talk!!
In Islam, the torment of the sinner in the grave, in the stage between death and resurrection, somewhere between the physical and spiritual world (barzakh) could possibly be compared to purgatory.
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Hello All,
First to Paul Williams,
Here is my response to you on Mark 10. It’s actually one of the most anti-Islamic chapters of the entire Bible.
http://allanruhl.com/does-mark-10-refute-the-deity-of-christ/
To the gentlemen on the left,
We do believe that Jesus died for our sins. The issue with Purgatory is that these sins leave temporal punishments. We’re forgiven but we still have to make amends.
While God forgives the sins we repent of via the death and resurrection of Christ, our prayers, fasting and good works, work off the temporal punishments. That is why when we go to confession, we are given a penance which usually involves prayer or fasting. If the temperal punishments aren’t worked off on Earth, then we’ll have to do it in purgatory. Purgatory is the final stage of sanctification.
James White has debated Catholic apologist Robert Sungenis twice on this issue. The first is a shorter radio debate and the second is a three hour long debate. I’d recommend these because they show where the evidence comes from(Scripture and Tradition) and the theology behind it. I’d recommend the radio debate since its shorter but if you want an in depth debate, the second debate is a good one.
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Richard Bauchkam (one of Paul Williams’ favorite Evangelical scholars to use) calls Mark 10:17-18 “a wonderful double entendre” and shows Jesus is actually claiming to be God! (see below for exact place in a radio interview.)
Jesus is basically saying, “If you recognize that I am good; and if you call me good; and only God is good; then this means I am God” – by character and substance; (homo-ousias with the Father).
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2017/01/05/one-of-a-muslims-favorite-scholars-refutes-islamic-mis-use-of-mark-1018/
Mark 10, if you keep reading the whole context, is actually against Paul William’s spin on it.
Allan is right on the Mark 10 defense.
I disagree on the purgatory issue, of course; and Williams’ put a wrong spin on the non-Roman Catholic view – it is NEVER right to interpret Evangelical Protestantism as “got your ticket punched so you can live like however you (sinfully) want” – as if works don’t matter at all.
Good works do matter and one must have them as the necessary and immediate fruit / result of being converted / justified by faith alone in Christ alone.
“we are justified by faith alone, but true faith never stays alone, it results in change, deeper repentance, growth, good works, fruit, growth in holiness / sanctification and perseverance.”
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Ken Temple,
The radio debate isn’t as circulated as the second debate. I believe that you’ll have to purchase it on his website. It’s very cheap.
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They have put them all up on Sermon Audio, but I could not find nor remember that. I know about the video debate on Purgatory with Sungenis, and vs. Tim Staples, and vs. Peter Stravinskas.
https://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?speakerWithinSource=&subsetCat=&subsetItem=&mediatype=&includekeywords=&exactverse=&keyword=aominorg&keyworddesc=aominorg&currsection=&AudioOnly=false&SourceOnly=true&keywordwithin=Purgatory&x=0&y=0
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Where is the radio debate with Sungenis on purgatory?
White debated Tim Staples and father Peter Stravinkas also on Purgatory.
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Williams and other Muslims are always not reading Mark 10 to verses 23-27.
23 And Jesus, looking around, said to His disciples, “How hard it will be for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God!” 24 The disciples were amazed at His words. But Jesus answered again and said to them, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 26 They were even more astonished and said to Him, “ Then who can be saved?” 27 Looking at them, Jesus said, “With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.”
Jesus, in Mark 10:27, teaches that men/man-kind/people (ανθρωποις – plural – men, people. Anthropois = where we get “Anthropology” from – “the study of mankind” ) cannot save themselves by good works or by their efforts or giving to the poor. Jesus says it is “impossible” (αδυνατον). This is consistent with the writings of the apostle Paul (Galatians 2:16; 2:21; the whole book and argument of Galatians; Romans 3:28; 4:1-16; 5:1-11; Philippians 3:9; Ephesians 2:8-9), and the apostle John (John 1:12; 3:15-16; 5:24; 6:29; 8:24; 11:25; 20:30-31) “with men it is impossible” – no one can saved themselves by their own efforts or good works, “but not with God, for all things are possible with God.” The whole NT message is that God saves people by His grace alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), through faith alone (Romans 4:1-16), in Christ alone. (John 3:18; 3:36; 14:6, Acts 4:12; Romans 10:13-15).
No Muslim can deal with Mark 10:23-27
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2013/09/02/no-muslim-can-deal-with-mark-1023-27/
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When did you see a doctor last time?
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non-sequiter argument
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James 2:14-23
“14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?
15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food.
16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?
17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.
19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]?
21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.
24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?
26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
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All Protestant Evangelicals who believe the Bible agree with James 2:14-26, it is just that James is speaking of the results of true faith. A person proves that they have true faith by good works. A person is proven to be justified by good works. the meaning of James 2:24 is “proven” or “demonstrated” or “vindicated”; as in Luke 7:35 and Matthew 11:19
Yet wisdom is vindicated ( δικαιοω / dikaiow ) (proven right; demonstrated correct) by her deeds.”
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Matthew 9:17 “If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
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Matthew 9:17 does not say that. Look again. 😉
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Ken of course rejects the message of Jesus.
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Typo. It’s Matthew 19:17
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keep reading the context all the way – Matthew 20:28
the Son of Man . . . came . . . to give His life as a ransom for many”
Qur’an 37:107 affirms this ransom substitutionary sacrifice principle.
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2016/10/21/so-why-did-allah-substitute-an-innocent-animal-in-the-place-of-abrahams-son/
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James 2:14-23 is more problematic to the concept of sola fide than you would admit. There’s a common scholarly opinion that James 2 forms an antithesis to the Pauline doctrine of justification by faith.
In contrast to your interpretation, which suggests that good works are a supplement of faith, James 2 clearly states that “faith without deeds is dead” because “even the demons believe”.
The tract is apparently attempting to answer the question “if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds, can such faith save them?” by the negative.
The word δικαιοω / dikaiow in the lexicon means “to render righteous”, and is translated variably as “vindicated” and “justified”. Paul uses the same word in Galatians to prove his doctrine of justification by faith
Galatians 2:16 “so that we may be justified (δικαιωθῶμεν-dikaiothomen) by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified”
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“non-sequiter argument” No, progressive comprehension
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No Paul; it is you who rejects the message of Jesus, since He taught:
For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.” Mark 10:45
note: same context of Mark 10 – keep reading.
note 2: the Qur’an affirms this meaning of “ransom” by the understanding of Genesis 22 and Abraham’s willingness and obedience to sacrifice his son, in Qur’an Surah 37:107 –
“We have ransomed him with a mighty sacrifice.”
Arabic and Farsi for ransom – root from فدا – فدیه – same root word when Mark 10:45 is translated into Arabic and Farsi.
Also Jesus taught forgiveness through His own atonement on the cross through His blood:
“this is the blood of the new covenant for the forgiveness of sins, given for you”, etc.
Matthew 26:28 & Mark 14:24 & Luke 22:19-20
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You need to stick to one topic. The original topic was Jesus’ denial of being “good”. Then you made it about justification by faith and now a third topic of atonement. People see these as red herrings.
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Quote:
I’m sorry to be so late to the party, John, and hope you don’t mind; but I tend to believe Jesus would have known better than to see a suffering and dying Messiah in Psalm 22 or Isaiah 53. He, if we are to believe he was a “teacher”, a rabbi, would have known that which is consistent throughout Torah and Tanakh that is, that one man cannot atone for the sins of another.
IE:
Exodus 32: 30-35
Deuteronomy 24:16
Jeremiah 31: 29-30
Ezekiel Chapter 18 (near all of it)
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“the Qur’an affirms this meaning of “ransom” by the understanding of Genesis 22 and Abraham’s willingness and obedience to sacrifice his son, in Qur’an Surah 37:107 –
“We have ransomed him with a mighty sacrifice.”
Ken,
You have been refuted about this nonsense, and you have not answered why a sinless animal is enough for your god to save a son born with the inherited sin while your religion teaches that only the blood of god himself which can save you.
You’re blind spirtually, christians ! You hear but you don’t understand. You read every thing with the lens of paganism.
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It’s called progressive revelation. the sinless animal was the way God set it up all through the OT (Genesis 3, 22; Exodus 12; Leviticus 1-7; 16-17; and then that truth is further developed by God’s word by prophesying of the future Messiah who will take away sins by substitutionary sacrifice – Isaiah 52:13-15 & Isaiah 53:1-12 & Daniel 9:24-27. (NT shows fulfillment of all of that – Mark 10:45; 14:24; John 1:29; Romans 3:19-26; Galatians 1:4; Ephesians 1:7; 1 Peter 1:18-19; Hebrews chapters 8, 9, 10; Revelation 1:5; 5:5-9.
This is all God’s word 600 years before Islam, so it is you who are not hearing spiritually nor understanding.
John 8:43 – “why do you not understand?
It is because you cannot ( οὐ δύνασθε = not able to) hear My Word”
John 8:47
“He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”
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ken you retard, none of the ot texts you quoted said that yhwh himself will he the sacrificed item. You retard nimcompook pagan , how can it please god while he is punishing himself? Is he a pagan self abuser?Isaiah said god took pleasure in punishing
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That is why there is the Father Yahweh and the Son Yahweh and the Holy Spirit Yahweh. Three eternal persons in ONE substance/nature/essence. The Father was pleased that the Son was willing to voluntarily come and offer Himself as a guilt offering – Isaiah 53:10
But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
John 10:18
“No one takes My life from Me; I voluntarily lay it down on My own initiative; I have authority to lay it down and take it up again . . . ”
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“the sinless animal was the way God set it up all through the OT”
The question then why your god (emptied) himself to be a lamb if the sinless animals were the way to be saved as we read in the story of Abraham’s son? Have animals become sinners suddenly?
“This is all God’s word 600 years before Islam”
How could this be an argument? Jews have been telling you that they don’t accept teachings which tell them that their god is the following: a lamb, man, and son of man after 1500 years!
Moreover, jews affirm that Islam has more things in common with their scripture than christianity does. Jews don’t agreee with your religion’s pillars because of their scripture not because of Islam. Have you thought about that ?
Isaiah 1: 11-18 is a sharp sword against your paganism about the “blood of god” that you can do nothing about it.
Jesus is telling you that the Father is the (ONLY) true God to get the eternal life, yet you don’t give s**t for this teaching because the councils have been telling you something else!
Jesus in the earliest gospel said to a jewsh guy that he has to ( keep the commandments) to get the eternal life as if Jesus had no idea that no one can be saved except through his blood.
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progressive revelation – the sinless animal was the substitute in Genesis 3 (God killed animals and shed blood in order to cover Adam and Eve’s nakedness and guilt and shame over their sin); Genesis 22; Job 1:5 ; Exodus 12 (passover lamb, see also I Cor. 5:7; Leviticus chapters 1-7; 16-17
Then, progressively, later, the prophesies point the the Suffering Servant – Messiah will come and be the substitutionary sacrifice – Isaiah 52:13-15; Isaiah 53:1-12; Daniel 9:24-27
Then, in NT, Jesus Al Masih fulfills the prophesies:
John 1:29
Romans 3:25-26
2 Corinthians 5:21
1 Peter 1:18-19
I Cor. 5:9
I Peter 2:22-25
Hebrews chapters 8, 9, 10
Revelation 1:5
Revelation 5:5-9
——
Isaiah 1:11-18 is talking about people who go thru the motions of the religious rituals but have no heart-repentance and faith. There has to be both – the sacrifice ritual AND repentance and faith in the person.
Jesus is telling you that the Father is the (ONLY) true God to get the eternal life,
Not exactly, Jesus said that the only way to have eternal life is TO KNOW the only True God and Jesus Christ whom You (speaking to the Father) have sent. John 17:3
And the only way to get to the Father and KNOW HIM is through the Son, Jesus Christ:
John 14:6
“I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through (faith in) Me.”
Matthew 11:27
“All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”
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“This is all God’s word 600 years before Islam”
Your James White
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Dr. White is right; not only did Islam come 600 years later and make a U-turn back to a lot of Judaism, but skipped over the NT revelation (by denying it’s main content, the cross, atonement by sacrifice substitutionary ransom (yet also agreeing with it in Surah 37:107), Deity of Christ, salvation by faith in Christ, the Father and the Son, etc. ) that the Qur’an also says is Scripture and revelation; so there is a BIG contradiction in Islam.
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U-turn and skipped over NT revelation; but also you reject a lot of the meaning of the sacrifices in the OT (Job 1:5; Leviticus 1-7; 16, 17; that Isaiah prophesies of suffering servant messiah that Jesus said He is that person – Mark 10:45; etc. and some parts of Genesis 22 – Isaac as the “only unique Son of his love” = beloved unique son.
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Jesus did not teach stalking Muslims
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I just wrote this post on James White being incorrect about Islam. It is not a U-turn.
http://allanruhl.com/james-white-is-wrong-about-islam/
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Yeah, that is why I added that it was more than just a “u turn”, but it is at least that, and more, as you point out, as they did not restore the temple or sacrifices and don’t accept a lot of stuff in the OT – even Paul Williams pretty much said that the OT was totally corrupted and unreliable.
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“progressively, later, the prophesies point the the Suffering Servant”
What does this imply? Are you suggesting that sacrificing animals was just a garbage as your prophet Paul thought?
Also and most important, was sacrifcing animals enough as we read in Abraham’s son. If so, why did your god need to (empty) himself to be a lamb? You keep avoiding this question.
I have no obligation to except your nonsesne interpretation for the OT texts.
Reagarding Isaiah 1, Read it by yourself :
16 Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean;
remove the evil of your deeds from before my eyes;
cease to do evil,
17 learn to do good;
seek justice,
correct oppression;
bring justice to the fatherless,
plead the widow’s cause.
18 “Come now, let us reason[a] together, says the Lord:
though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red like crimson,
they shall become like wool”
The emphasis hear is NOT about sacrificing animals, is it?
You may read Psalm 51:16-17as well.
” There has to be both – the sacrifice ritual AND repentance and faith in the person”
Although the text itself doesn’t say that, but I have no problem with your statement.
However, for you as a christian, you have to have a problem with your own statament since your religion teaches you that “the sacrifice ritual AND repentance” is NOT enough for your scarlet sins to be white as snow. Otherwise, why do you believe in this pagan concept about the god who dies!? You cannot escape from this implication, Ken.
“Not exactly, Jesus said that the only way to have eternal life is TO KNOW the only True God ”
How could that be different from what I said? The Father is still the (only) true God, which you don’t accept.
I bear witness that Allah(sw) is the (only) true God, and Issa pbuh is the christ whom He sent. Can you do the same?
The point about James’ video is that your statement about Islam that it came 600 later is not an argument since Islam was the normal continuation of prophets’ true message. On the other hand, your prophet paul and your religion which got formulated based on his writings came with not only a different message, but also it came with a contradictory message to the OT.
Jews, Muslims, Atheists, and even some sincere christians acknowledge this fact, so please stop using “600 years later ” since it’s so vapid.
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The NT is not contradictory to the OT, it is the continuation of revelation and the fulfillment of the OT, and came before Islam, which shows Islam is false, since the NT is true and is the continuation and fulfillment of the OT.
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I am fully aware of all of Isaiah 1 and Psalm 51.
The apostle Paul’s writings are fully inspired from God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. the apostle Paul is Jesus’ apostle, giving continued revelation that is in full harmony with all the gospels – and Jesus taught the same things, such as in Mark 10:45 & 14:24 (substitutionary ransom atonement).
Abdullah 1423 – at least you don’t argue badly like Faiz and Burhannadin1 or mr.heathcliff (the worst of all in cussing and name-calling) who add mockery and name calling and ad hominem (like Shamoun).
Thanks.
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I bear witness the there is only one true God, who exists eternally in three persons, the Father, the Word/Son, and the Holy Spirit, and that He sent His only unique eternally generated Son, the Word (John 1:1) into the World to become a human, born of the virgin Mary, lived a sin-less life, taught the gospel and truth, did miracles, suffered and died for sins, becoming the once for all ransom atonement for sins; and on the 3rd day, rose from the dead in power, and ascended to heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father, and intercedes for His people now. (Romans 8:34, 1 John 2:1; Hebrews 7:25; 9:24)
Jesus, while on earth, prayed to the Father and called Him the “one true God” in John 17:3, but that does not preclude the truth that Jesus is also God by nature/essence/substance or that the Holy Spirit is also God by nature/substance/essence; as other Scripture puts all three persons together (Matthew 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14) and other Scriptures teach the Deity of Jesus and the Deity of the Holy Spirit. Since there is only one God (Mark 12:29; Deut. 6:4), and the Deity of Christ and H. S. is clear in other verses; we testify that all Scripture, properly harmonized together, teaches the doctrine of the Trinity, one God in three persons.
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“rogressive revelation – the sinless animal was the substitute in Genesis 3 (God killed animals and shed blood in order to cover Adam and Eve’s nakedness and guilt and shame over their sin); Genesis 22; Job 1:5 ; Exodus 12 (passover lamb, see also I Cor. 5:7; Leviticus chapters 1-7; 16-17”
But the Jews tell me that the ANIMAL as it is dying causes feeling of guilt because it could have been the Jew instead of the animal. Your spiritual faggotory has you full of joy over a body leaving an empty tomb with no LINEN clothing, this is the opposite result of what a Jew was supposed to experience .
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Ken,
You have not answered the key questions I asked, which shows how an awful situation you are in.
“The NT is not contradictory to the OT, it is the continuation of revelation and the fulfillment of the OT, and came before Islam, which shows Islam is false, since the NT is true and is the continuation and fulfillment of the OT.”
You are not in your church! We know that your religion contradicts what Jesus himself taught, let alone to not contradict the OT, and this has been proved by NT scholars. Fear Allah and Ask him the guidance.
“I am fully aware of all of Isaiah 1 and Psalm 51”
You hear, but you don’t understand. You are blind spiritually.
“The apostle Paul’s writings are fully inspired from God the Father,”
Your evidences?
Many scholars including some conservative ones acknowledge that Paul had a different message from that one with the original disciples.
You yourself Ken said that rituals and the the broken spirit must be together while your prophet Paul taught that rituals are just garbage and a curse. He even belittled the original disciples because they maintained the law of Moses.
All prophets of God emphasized about the spirtual meanings behind the rituals that Allah(sw) has ordered from us. In fact, this is very clear in Jesus’ ministry in your bible that you have today, yet they have not claimed that the law of Allah got cancelled as your prophet Paul did.
“Jesus, while on earth, prayed to the Father and called Him the “one true God” in John 17:3, but that does not preclude ”
Jesus was talking about people! They have to know him( the Father) as the (ONLY) true God, which you don’t accept, Ken because of the teachings of councils. All of this regardless that your bible got corrupted, and the gospels have been improved from the earliest to the latest one as the clear evidences show.
“I bear witness the there is only one true God, who exists eternally in three persons, the Father, the Word/Son, and the Holy Spirit, and that He sent His only unique eternally generated Son”
Except that Jesus himself has never used your language to describe Allah(sw), and he has never taught this statement.
Was Jesus so unable to teach this creed for Jews in the first century? In the latest written gospel, Jesus didn’t try to correct that jewish guy when he believed in Jesus as a prophet( John9)!
Jesus should have condemned him and ordered him to stop that belief which was similar to the Islamic one. Jesus being a prophet is not enough for you, yet Jesus didn’t mind seemingly.
Moreover, If we want to neglect all facts about John’s gospel and how it’s written, then that gospel must be read under 2 verses which are:
1) The Father is the (only) true God.
2) Isn’t written in your law that some leaders have been called gods.
“is clear in other verses; we testify that all Scripture, properly harmonized together”
You neglect the fact that your bible is books written independently in different times by different authors, each of whom had a different prospective, so why you try to harmonize them? We have no obligation to do that.
Also and most imprtant, what you call it a “harmonization” doesn’t make sense at all. They are just terms given for things don’t exist, and they contradict the previous scripture and the logic. Don’t tell me that jews, atheists, some christians just say that to support Islam.
There’s a problem with the trinity you have no choice but to acknowledge about it.
Islam is the way to Allah(sw). Ask Allah to open your heart to the truth .
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Dr. Shabir Ally about Paul.
I forgot to question the statement
” eternally generated”
Does this make sense? Either he got generated or he’s eternal! How can he be both?
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“there is the Father Yahweh and the Son Yahweh and the Holy Spirit Yahweh”
Priceless
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What about the Trinity Yahweh and the Divine Nature Yahweh?
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Yhwh equal shared one thing and each is fully sharing this one shared thing which makes each person fully yhwh and DISTINCT.
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ken, according to the Torah not only are you a spiritual faggot but you are a person who would worship a Jew leaving an empty tomb with no linen clothing. Ken , yhwh was in a MARRIAGE with the Jews, you are in a MARRIAGE with a male god. This is ADULTERY ken and adulterers like you under Torah law would be EXECUTED.
” bear witness the there is only one true God, who exists eternally in three persons, the Father, the Word/Son, and the Holy Spirit, ”
your spiritual faggotory is showing .
HOW CAN ONE THING EXIST AS THREE THINGS?
one OMNISCIENCE makes all three omniscient which equal 3 separate omnisciences since each individual is with its own mind.
so your shared one thing produces three separate things as “fully god”
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Notice one thing IN three things which are separate, distinct and different and EACH contains this “one thing”
Notice your “in”
Yes, your spiritual FAGGOTORY is showing ken
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“progressively, later, the prophesies point the the Suffering Servant”
Kens disgusting spiritual a and physical ADULTERy is refuted by the Jews,
Quote
The animal had to be a domestic kosher animal (owned by the one bringing it) — or a bird or even flour in some instances —
The Ramban explains that the essence of a sacrifice is that the offender should watch the slaughtering of the animal and think: “That should be me!”
It is the emotional reaction of the person that is at the heart of the sacrifice. He should realize that he could have been killed or punished for his “crimes” — but he repented and brought the sacrifice (realizing what he did wrong). This feeling must also lead the offender to repentance, to turn aside from his wrongdoing and mend his ways — and it is this change of heart that is what truly brings atonement.
End quote
So since a Jew felt that the death of the animal could move his heart and cause him to feel guilty and repent,your “progressive” lies are DOWNPLAYING THE ACT OF KILLING THE ANIMAL AND WATCHING ITS LIFE FLEET because you prefer spiritual ADULTERY with a Jew leaving tomb with no linen clothing.
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“Abdullah 1423 – at least you don’t argue badly like Faiz and Burhannadin1 or mr.heathcliff (the worst of all in cussing and name-calling) who add mockery and name calling and ad hominem (like Shamoun).”
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“The NT is not contradictory to the OT, it is the continuation of revelation and the fulfillment of the OT, and came before Islam, which shows Islam is false, since the NT is true and is the continuation and fulfillment of the OT.”
Lol….circular arguments…the last resort of a missionary.
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“Jesus, while on earth, prayed to the Father and called Him the “one true God” in John 17:3, but that does not preclude the truth that Jesus is also God by nature/essence/substance or that the Holy Spirit is also God by nature/substance/essence; as other Scripture puts all three persons together (Matthew 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14) and other Scriptures teach the Deity of Jesus and the Deity of the Holy Spirit. Since there is only one God (Mark 12:29; Deut. 6:4), and the Deity of Christ and H. S. is clear in other verses; we testify that all Scripture, properly harmonized together, teaches the doctrine of the Trinity, one God in three persons.”
If the deity of the holy spirit is “clear”, why didn’t Paul include it in his epistle greetings to the churches? He always included God and Jesus but never the holy spirit. Curious, no?
If the deity of the holy spirit is “clear”, why did it take Christians almost 400 years to finally state it in their creed? 381 was the year when the holy spirit was officially divinized. Curious, no?
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Faiz,
Deity of the Holy Spirit:
Acts 5:3-5
“you are not lying to man but to God”
“Why are you lying to the Holy Spirit?”
therefore,
the Holy Spirit is God in substance/nature/essence
Many other verses in this excellent sermon:
http://www.desiringgod.org/messages/the-holy-spirit-he-is-god
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Paul included the Holy Spirit in many places with the Father and the Son:
2 Corinthians 13:14 – a triadic formula
Ephesians 1:3-14 – the work of the Father, the work of the Son, and the Work of the Holy Spirit
Ephesians 4:3-6 – “one God and Father”; One Lord Jesus Christ, One Spirit”
Romans 14:17-18
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LOL, still not answering the question. Why did it take your ancestors almost 400 years to state it clearly in their creed that the holy spirit was divine?
“The fellowship of the holy spirit…”
Here is Paul’s greeting at the beginning of 2 Corinthians:
” Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”
What happened? Is there no grace and peace from the holy spirit?
Is there no fellowship with the father and the son?
Here is the creed of the council of Nicea regarding the holy spirit:
“And in the Holy Ghost.”
That’s it?! This is your so-called “divine” holy spirit? It seems neither Paul nor the councilmen at Nicea didn’t seem to have the first clue that the holy spirit was divine.
It was not until the Council of Constantinople in 381 that the holy spirit was FINALLY recognized as “divine”. Here is the amended text from the Nicene creed:
“And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets.”
Those guys were clearly a little confused. LOL…
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May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God (the Father), and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
2 Corinthians 13:14
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Ken,
If anything the above verse shows clearly that Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit are not God. You have added ‘the Father’ in braces where the verse mentioned ‘God’.
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Ken said:
“Faiz,
Deity of the Holy Spirit:
Acts 5:3-5
“you are not lying to man but to God”
“Why are you lying to the Holy Spirit?”
therefore,
the Holy Spirit is God in substance/nature/essence
Many other verses in this excellent sermon:
http://www.desiringgod.org/messages/the-holy-spirit-he-is-god”
Wow, that is a terrible job of quoting your own Bible! Ken, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you stoop to such deception?
Here is what Acts 5 really says:
“Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.””
No where does it say the holy spirit is divine. You are trying to force a link that is simply not there. Peter said that Ananias had pretty much lied to everyone: God, humans and the holy spirit.
Your non-sequitur fails miserably.
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“Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.””
Acts 5:3-5
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see the parallel:
“lied to the Holy Spirit”
“you have not lied to human beings but to God”
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Mindless repetition…another one of the last resorts of a missionary.
So let me repeat…
No where does it say the holy spirit is divine. You are trying to force a link that is simply not there. Peter said that Ananias had pretty much lied to everyone: God, humans and the holy spirit.
Your non-sequitur fails miserably.
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I cannot help it if you are resisting what Christians have always believed. Truth does not change.
Peter’s point is that when they lied, humans cannot tell; but God knows the secret things and secret motives and the Holy Spirit knows the secrets and motives which are unseen; so therefore the parallel of “you have lied to the Holy Spirit” and “you have lied to God” teaches that the Holy Spirit is God by nature.
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“I cannot help it if you are resisting what Christians have always believed. Truth does not change.”
LOL, the problem is that your beliefs are based on circular arguments and non-sequiturs. i cannot help it if your religion is so flawed.
“Peter’s point is that when they lied, humans cannot tell; but God knows the secret things and secret motives and the Holy Spirit knows the secrets and motives which are unseen; so therefore the parallel of “you have lied to the Holy Spirit” and “you have lied to God” teaches that the Holy Spirit is God by nature.”
Case in point of the flawed logic…
Peter said first that Ananias was lying to the holy spirit. Why? Because Peter had the holy spirit. That is how he was able to tell that Ananias was lying. Then he said that Ananias had lied not just to a human but also to God. Thus, he was lying to a man, to the holy spirit and to God. There is no connection between the holy spirit and God. That is your own forced conjecture.
Here is how a Unitarian puts it:
“The above illustrates why Peter could say that Ananias and Sapphira were lying to both God and the Holy Spirit. It was not because the Holy Spirit is God, as trinitarians claim. They were lying to one of God’s apostles, in whom He was working (through the power of His Holy Spirit).
Also, consider Peter’s statement, “…You have not lied unto men…” Advocates of the trinity doctrine seem to completely ignore the fact that the husband and wife had lied directly to Peter (a man). Peter was a flesh-and-blood human being. Was he somehow elevating himself to the status of either God or the Holy Spirit? (See Acts 14:7-18.)
Why do trinitarians not consider that part of Peter’s statement? Their argument has no strength, because it is inconsistent and does not examine every aspect of the account. As is always the case, religionists have taken a single scripture out of context and either ignored or maligned other scriptures, building a doctrinal “house of cards.””
https://rcg.org/questions/p054.a.html
Why do Unitarians not see a trinity here? Why do they struggle to understand the trinitarian mindset? The reason is that without trinitarian presumptions, no person on the outside looking into the Bible would see a trinity anywhere. The trinitarian assumes the trinity from the start and then tries to force the trinity into every possible verse. That is why trinitarianism is a false concept.
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Still no anewer as do why it took Christians 400 years to finally get their act together on the alleged divinity of the holy spirit. Your silence says more than words ever could, Ken.
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The Deity of the Holy Spirit is already there in Scripture, as the Holy Spirit is put on par with the Father and the Son – Matthew 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14, and He is clearly called God in Acts 5:3-5; Genesis 1:2; Psalm 104:30; 1 Corinthians 2:10-11; Matthew 12:31-32; Psalm 139:7; Romans 8:9.
The first four so called “ecumenical councils” are good and right, only because they reflect the meaning of what was already in Scripture in the first century. They are not infallible as Scripture is; but they were helpful in defining issues as controversies arose. When disagreements and controversies arose in history, the church responded.
1. Council of Nicea – 325 AD – the Son is eternal and the same substance ( homo-ousias) as the Father.
2. Council of Constantinople – 381 AD -1. Deity of the Holy Spirit; 2. Jesus is fully human
3. Council of Ephesus – 431 AD – Nestorius’ errors and over-reaction condemned; Jesus is One person, not two persons; Jesus was always God, even in the womb of Mary, Mary was the “God bearing one” (Theotokos)
4. Council of Chalcedon – 451 AD – Jesus is one divine person with 2 natures. 100 % human and 100 % God.
These first 4 Councils Protestants agree with because they reflect the meaning of the first century Scriptures.
Theology works itself out in history when and if heretics and heresies and controversies and questions arise that were not addressed in the first century.
It is not that they took so long to “get their act together”; rather they were responding to issues and questions and heresies that arose later.
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quote
the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God[a] swept over the face of the waters
so the holy spirit is identified as A god, not THE god?
Is wind of god like arm of god?
”
G-d formed man out of dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils a breath of life. Man [thus] became a living creature.
”
Did god breath out holy spirit and make every human divine??
Is gods breath SEPARATE from god?’ if not, then is every created thing god? If breath is giving life, then human life is god, right?
“And the spirit of HaShem departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from HaShem frightened him.”
so was the “a” in genesis the “an”
In Samuel??
Yhwh
said he was in a marriage, you are in a marriage with a god with no linen clothing, doesn’t that make you a spiritual adulterer ?
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LOL, maybe if they had clarified the “correct” beliefs from the start, the “controversies” would never have emerged and there would have been a need for so many “ecumenical councils”! The flawed logic of Ken the missionary strikes again.
As Ned Flanders would say Ken, “you’re straining to do some explaining”. 😉
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“That is why there is the Father Yahweh and the Son Yahweh and the Holy Spirit Yahweh. Three eternal persons in ONE substance/nature/essence. The Father was pleased that the Son was willing to voluntarily come and offer Himself as a guilt offering – Isaiah 53:10
But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,”
And in other place you wish to see the father as sending the spirit to create life. so what does the father experience in the act of breathing and suffering? is he using one one divine nature to make the son feel suffering while he himself does the pouring and suffering on another person? Or are all three involved in the pouring and punishment?
how can each person SHARING the same nature become PUNISHER and PUNISHED?
Father is only a sender and punisher ، he also just has role of sending and punishing, he actually does not seem to be involved in being object of his own punishment and breathing life. into something. you seem to be worshipping 3 gods here.
you will never have the father be the object of his divine wrath only a separate god, why ?
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“That is why there is the Father Yahweh and the Son Yahweh and the Holy Spirit Yahweh. Three eternal persons in ONE substance/nature/essence. The Father was pleased that the Son was willing to voluntarily come and offer Himself as a guilt offering – Isaiah 53:10
But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
John 10:18
“No one takes My life from Me; I voluntarily lay it down on My own initiative; I have authority to lay it down and take it up again . . . ”
Mr temple, please tell me where Isaiah says that the PUNISHED THING is the almighty?
Where did u invent this from in is 53?
Mr temple, if you are an honest person, you will see there is nothing voluntary going on in Isaiah 53. The suffering thing/things is accustomed to illness, being PERSECUTED and taken away from Torah rule.
Mr temple, how many persons are PUNISHING the thing which BECAME? 2 or 3?
does the father experience being PUNISHER AND PUNISHED?
you have sender and sent
You have punished and punisher, how is that which is PUNISHED 1 yhwh with the PUNISHER?
Please tell me how does 1 nature exist as punisher and punished at the same time?
I think these texts are proof that Christians worship more than one god.
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“..
“That is why there is the Father Yahweh and the Son Yahweh and the Holy Spirit Yahweh. Three eternal persons in ONE substance/nature/essence. The Father was pleased that the Son was willing to voluntarily come and offer Himself as a guilt offering – Isaiah 53:10
But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
John 10:18
“No one takes My life from Me; I voluntarily lay it down on My own initiative; I have authority to lay it down and take it up again . . . ”
Mr temple, please tell me where Isaiah says that the PUNISHED THING is the almighty?
Where did u invent this from in is 53?
Mr temple, if you are an honest person, you will see there is nothing voluntary going on in Isaiah 53. The suffering thing/things is accustomed to illness, being PERSECUTED and taken away from Torah rule.
Mr temple, how many persons are PUNISHING the thing which BECAME? 2 or 3?
does the father experience being PUNISHER AND PUNISHED?
you have sender and sent
You have punished and punisher, how is that which is PUNISHED 1 yhwh with the PUNISHER?
Please tell me how does 1 nature exist as punisher and punished at the same time?
I think these texts are proof that Christians worship more than one god.
..
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