“The idea that God can only forgive our sins, by having his son tortured and killed as a scapegoat is surely from an object point of view a deeply unpleasant idea. If God wanted to forgive us our sins why didn’t he just forgive them? Why did he have to torture his so called son? God was in the position to accept any ransom he chose presumably why on earth would he have his son tortured for the sin of something who lived millions of year ago. Saying that if we were to use the biblical timeline then it would be around five thousand years ago?
So Adam was disobedient and that sin reverberated down to mankind throughout the ages is inherited by all humans. What kind of a doctrine is that? Inherited by all humans and had to be redeemed by the so called son of god being tortured, what kind of a morality are you propagating there?”
Why does my post keep getting deleted? Is the point not valid? Freedom of speech is a real thing – that includes the right to be critical of religion. If people are sure and confident of their faith they will be able to handle criticism no?
Paul Williams put that up and said Dawkins has no right to insult religion.
And yet, when I defended Christian doctrine on Twitter with Paul, (I think it was yesterday) he started calling me names like “nutter” and “loon” etc.
you were the one who resorted to name calling; I was just defending Christian doctrine.
Yet you complain when Dawkins attacks Islam – that is his opinion.
And Paul, you insult the Christian religion all the time by your attacks on Christianity, the Bible, the Deity of Christ, the Trinity, atonement, the cross, Jesus as God in the flesh, the incarnation, justification by faith alone, salvation by grace alone.
What is the difference between your insults and Dawkins’ insults?
When I read your comments which are by most just a repetitive preaching about the nonsense of your religion, I can see what br. Paul probably went through with you, especially that you have not provided satisfied answers about its validity, its historicity, or the logic behind it.
You are just a fundamental christian who thinks that telling muslims that Jesus died for thier sins would affect smehow on them.
This is so stupid, indeed.
I really encourage you to read Quran with a humble spirit before Allah(sw) who is Jesus’ God and your God.
Your life is enclosed about a god who became a created being to die on the cross in the first century C.E.
“So have they not traveled through the earth and have hearts by which to reason and ears by which to hear? For indeed, it is not eyes that are blinded, but blinded are the hearts which are within the breasts.” QT S22:46
I already have read Qu’ran. no power, dry ritualistic, external, legalistic, not much grace or love; it is the opposite of the Bible –
in Qur’an – “Allah will love you if you love him first”shows that the Qur’an limits Allah, because “Allah does not love sinners” (Qur’an 2:190; 2:276; 3:32; 3:57; 7:31; 4:36; 8:58; 28:77; 57:23); yet the Bible says, “God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” Romans 5:8
Bible – “God demonstrates His own love for us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” Romans 5:8
“Peace I give to you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you, do not let your heart be troubled . . . ” John 14:27
Islam: We pray for peace to be upon the prophets.
If they are with God in heaven, they ALREADY have peace. Why pray that?
But Jesus said:
“But I tell you : Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Matthew 5:44-48)
• Allah loves those who are pure and clean al-Baqarah 2:222 (specifically taking about women being clean from their menstruation period).
• Allah loves those who do good al-Baqarah 2:195; Âl ‘Imran 3:134
• Allah loves those who keep faith and act rightly Âl ‘Imran 3:76
“In all the examples above, the love of God is conditional upon the believer being good or clean. If the believer should turn back from God, Allah does not love him any more (Âl ‘Imran 3:32).”
If you love Allah, then Allah will love you. Qur’an Al Imran 3:31
Allah does not forgive those that ascribe partners to Allah; Allah only forgives who he wants to forgive. Surah 4:48
Allah does not love those who reject Faith, Âl ‘Imran 3:32
Allah does not love the arrogant, the vainglorious, an-Nisa’ “Women” 4:36
Allah does not love the ungrateful or wicked, al-Baqarah 2:276
Allah does not love transgressors, al-Baqarah 2:190
Allah does not love wrongdoers, Âl ‘Imran 3:57,140
Ken the bible teaches all the same stuff that you listed from the Qur’an.
Remember God loves Jacob and not Esau. Remember the death penalty for apostates and blasphemers in the Torah which Jesus affirmed as Gods law. Remember that hell awaits the unbelievers that he will destroy in Revelation of John. Remember Jesus teaching that eternal life is gained through obedience to the law.
But Romans 5:8 shows God’s love comes first without conditions, and in spite of being bad (Jacob was a deceiver and did not deserve God’s love and grace) and then He changes the hearts of those He sets His love on out of grace, not legalism. Some from all nations, tribes, languages are purchased out of sinfulness to be redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 5:9; 7:9
“I already have read Qu’ran. no power, dry ritualistic, external, legalistic, not much grace or love; it is the opposite of the Bible ”
Allah (sw) is not something that you shape in your head first, and then you try to find what matchs to your pagan thoughts about God.
Why do you think jews have no problem with Quran regarding how Allah (sw) speaks about himself? They are so familiar with its language. What’s the reason in your opinion?
Quran is indeed the most powerful word you will ever read.
Read Quran again with a broken spirit, a humble one. Don’t read it as a blind missionary. Don’t prevent yourself from receiving that light. Ask Allah(sw) the guidance as Jesus did.
Then are you serious when quote Paul as something to face Quran with!?What a darkness that you are in, man!
Reagrding the argument of love! It’s the most stupid argument I have ever heard. You make your god be a created being to prove that your god is all loving? What’s really special when you confess that statan is loved by god as god loves saints?
“Or do those who commit evils think We will make them like those who have believed and done righteous deeds – [make them] equal in their life and their death? Evil is that which they judge.” QT.
Yes Allah(sw) don’t love those who do evil deeds. What’s wrong of that? But in the same time he is so merciful toward them, so he provides them with time to repent, food, health … etc.
Your God in the bible does hate certain people as well !
Also, what kind of love is that which involves telling your beloved people that they have to keep the law which cannot be kept in the first place, then you punish them severely once they break that “garabage” law! , and when he(i.e your god) suddenly decided to love them, he came as a disguised man speaking with parables so they hear but they don’t understand as if teaching them that he is not a man for 1500 yeas i s not enough?
I repeat my advice, Ken . Read Quran. Start with surah 7 or 10.
Live that journey, and InshaAllah you are gonna experience something very different and very deep.
And yes we pray for peace for the prophets. We and the prophets always need for Peace from Allah(sw). We still need Allah whether you are righteous or not. Also, it’s a reminder for us that those men are created beings not divine beings.
Man, your “god” himself was asking his disciples to pray with him for him!
The question you should ask yourself is that why your god can do nothing by his own authority,and why he needed to ask his god while he himself is god , especially that you keep telling us that he has not ceased to be god!
But why do the prophets in heaven with Allah need to be prayed for to have peace?
When believers die, doesn’t their soul/spirit go to be with Allah in paradise?
I guess not. From what I remember, in Islam, your soul / spirit is in the grave with the body, awaiting the day of resurrection and judgment, right?
So, there is no assurance of peace, even for the believers.
But when Christians die, our spirits / souls go straight to heaven to be with God and there is an assurance and true hope of peace and eternal life, because Jesus promised this. For example, John 5:24; Matthew 11:28-30; John 3:16; John 14:27; Romans 5:1-11
2 Corinthians 5:6-11
in the day of resurrection, the bodies will be re-united with the soul / spirit. John 5:28-29
“So, there is no assurance of peace, even for the believers.”
you have no assurance. you may think you are doing right, but satan, according to paul is powerful enough to delude you into thinking you are doing right, it could be your original sin stained nature deceiving you that you are doing right, but even your own god tells you you have no assurance because it is possible you will be told “depart from me…”
here is what assurance means
“full confidence; freedom from doubt; certainty:”
yet you don’t know this and it can only be told to you on day of judgement, but TODAY , this HOUR , you are TOO CONFIDENT , too confident that all your present and future crimes have been atoned and you are DEFINATELY going to heaven. i call this arrogance and i believe the powerful SATANIC delusion is your god, your “holy spirit”
you really have no assurance because you have no proof for it. you have TEXTS, but these TEXTS TELL you that satan is POWERFUL enough to delude you and on day of judgement you will be told to “depart from me and burn in hell”
Ken Temple
August 3, 2017 • 4:38 pm
But why do the prophets in heaven with Allah need to be prayed for to have peace?
When believers die, doesn’t their soul/spirit go to be with Allah in paradise?
I guess not. From what I remember, in Islam, your soul / spirit is in the grave with the body, awaiting the day of resurrection and judgment, right?
So, there is no assurance of peace, even for the believers.
I say;
Learn Islam very well. Our soul goes straight to God whether Muslim or non Muslim. God raises each soul from the grave or where one died for initial questioning and will be questioned in the day of judgement again.
The soul of all humans after death is with God. He can raise them anytime he wishes for His own purpose. If God will put souls in paradise or not, that is His own prerogative.
There is an assurance in the Quran that all Muslims will enter paradise eventually. No religion has visited heaven and back and so no religion can claim his religious assurance is the only correct one. It is just a belief. Christians/Muslims/Jews/Hindus/ even Idol worshipers have their own assurances. None have visited heaven and back with pictures of them and God swimming in the garden. That nonsense of Christians alone have assurance of heaven must be stopped. Any one can claim assurance of heaven without proof, like how the Christians are doing.
YUSUF ALI
Say: “If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
Say, [O Muhammad], “If you should love Allah, then follow me, [so] Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.”
Totally opposite of Bible:
God loves us first and changes sinners hearts into followers and worshipers so that we can then love Him.
Romans 5:1-11
Romans 6
All people have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23), except for Jesus Christ, the perfect and sinless Son of God.
The vessels of wrath get wrath (those that don’t believe in Christ and as a result of their own sinfulness, they are justly judged in hell); the vessels of mercy (those that repent and believe in Christ) experience God’s love. Romans 9:22-23.
The vessels of mercy did not deserve mercy or grace. They were sinners just as much as those who will not believe in Christ.
Romans 5:8
For God demonstrates His own love for us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
God so loved the world of sinners (John 3:16) – some people from every nation, people group, tribe, and language were purchased / redeemed by the blood of the lamb. Revelation 5:9
It is a great multitude of which no one can count from every nation (ethnicity), tribe, language and people group. Revelation 7:9
God shows His justice against sinners who do not repent and believe.
God shows His love and mercy toward sinners from all the nations on those who repent and believe in Christ.
The difference is in Islam there is no category for God showing His mercy First on sinners from all nations; rather in Islam, the human must do works of effort and rituals and believe in Allah and Muhammad and submission FIRST and prove himself worthy and maybe Inshall’allah they will make it to paradise; but there is no assurance of peace or salvation. Abdullah Kunde admitted this, that in the end Allah can send even the believers to hell if He wants to. (in his debate vs. Samuel Green on Salvation, “Savior of the Word: Jesus or the Qur’an?”)
The father in trinity doesn’t love you. The father who is greater than jc sent jc as a postman delivers letters. The father sent jc for divinely prescribed whooping .
So father is portrayed as
1.delivery postman
2. whooper
3.distant person who can never come into friendship with humans
4.tells humans they are diseased
the son is portrayed as more loving than the father because in trinity the son saves fristians from doing Torah laws and dies for them. Father sits while son is send and punished . Father needs appeasement and sends son so fristians can eat and drink a wounded and pierced god leaving empty tomb with no clothing.
Jesus said;
Luke 19:27
New International Version
But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them–bring them here and kill them in front of me.'”
Excellent point. The empty statements of “love” that these missionaries make are designed to fool the gullible, but reasonable people will not be swayed by such childish arguments.
Luke 19:27 is a parable about judgement day in the future against unbelievers who don’t repent & believe in Christ = don’t submit to Him.
the unbelievers = “those who did not want Me to king over them” = those that don’t repent and believe in Jesus – they will be justly punished in hell forever.
Mark 9:47-48 – hell, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.
Revelation 14:10 – unbelievers are tortured forever in hell under God’s wrath in the presence of the Lamb. (see also Rev. 20:10-15)
“kill them in front of Me” = symbol of eternal hell in justice – symbol of Mark 9:47-48; Revelation 14:10; Revelation 20:10-15
Ken Temple
Totally opposite of Bible:
God loves us first and changes sinners hearts into followers and worshipers so that we can then love Him.
Romans 5:1-11
Romans 6
John 8:31-36
the truth will set you free
I say;
You are totally confused Ken.
-If your god loves us first, why will he not change the hearts of sinners but will put them to hell? Is there not hell for your God to burn sinners? If He loves them, why did he not change their heart?
-So, it is totally lie to claim Jesus loves sinners and everyone while Jesus has hell waiting for sinners who did not love and believed in him. It absolute lies and confusion from Christians and their missionaries to keep telling lies that Jesus loves sinners, Jesus loves everyone. That is not true at all. Stop preaching that otherwise you lied and hell is waiting for you.
-I corrected you on the “desire” thread where a Muslims says he does not follow his desires. I said your God Jesus Christ was tempted by satan and satan shows your God the world. If satan is not omnipresent how was he able to show your God the world and tempt every human every day?
-Satan tempts Adam and Eve and he continues to tempt us and that is the truth. Adam sin is not passed to us, except who tempted him is still tempting us today. That is why we must follow God’s Allah against the temptations of satan and his lieutenants.
Thanks.
Muslims love Jesus first, but Jesus did not love them back but will still put them in hell fire. Where is Jesus love here? Every Muslim loves Jesus Christ and it is our faith to love Jesus Christ. But Jesus does not love us back. So, it is a big lie to say Jesus loves everyone. Your Jesus does not love even those who loves him. I swear I love Jesus. But Ken Temple’s Jesus does not love me, even though I love him. Why should Ken Temple tell me that his Jesus loves me first, when it is the opposite, his Jesus does not love me first, even though I love Jesus?
There are many people who are not Muslims and/or Christians but they love Jesus and Jesus does not love them back and will burn them in hell fire. So, it is deception, lies, and untruth to keep preaching Jesus loves everyone when it is exactly the opposite.
Thanks Ken, come to Islam and stop confusing yourself.
Ken Temple
August 3, 2017 • 4:42 pm
Luke 19:27 is a parable about judgement day in the future against unbelievers who don’t repent & believe in Christ = don’t submit to Him.
the unbelievers = “those who did not want Me to king over them” = those that don’t repent and believe in Jesus – they will be justly punished in hell forever.
Mark 9:47-48 – hell, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.
Revelation 14:10 – unbelievers are tortured forever in hell under God’s wrath in the presence of the Lamb. (see also Rev. 20:10-15)
“kill them in front of Me” = symbol of eternal hell in justice – symbol of Mark 9:47-48; Revelation 14:10; Revelation 20:10-15
I say;
Bob Marley-“Is this love?”
Is the above love? torturing people in hell forever by Jesus Christ, your God. You call this love. May be you have to go back to school and learn what love is. You have to guts to blame someone’s God about love, when your God does not love first, some people who loves him.
There is in fact assurance of salvation to Muslims. It’s mentioned in many places in the Quran and Ahadith.
Also, the fact that Allah (swt) sends His message to all people, regardless of their background or ethnicity, shows that He actually wants everyone to be saved. However, they must decide whether to accept Him or not. So, by your logic, Allah (swt) does indeed love everyone. If He didn’t, then He wouldn’t care to send prophets and messengers to all people and would just leave them in their sins instead of giving them an opportunity to repent.
You claim that your god loves everyone because, despite the fact we are all sinners, he offers us a chance at salvation. But this opportunity only applies if the sinner acknowledges God and accepts Him. If he does not, then he is doomed to hell forever. Where is the love in this? You cannot possibly love a person and yet threaten them with eternal torture if they don’t love you back. So, your god’s “love” is conditional. If it was unconditional, then everyone would be saved purely out of love, regardless of their wrong-doings.
It is precisely the issue of justice that creates a contradiction. A just God cannot possibly love everyone. How can God love a murderer or a child rapist?
there is another reason why justice proves your theology is false. Your god treats everyone the same. A murderer is the same as a pious man who spends his life praying and serving God, because they are both “sinners” due to the taint of original sin. That is not justice.
I have dealt with the issue of original sin in my latest article. See it here:
..
Ken , if jesus loved judas why did he say that it was better he wasn’t even born?
“Matthew 5:44-48”
..
If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?
……
Ken, you are a retard. Ken, pagans used to love other than brothers, was jesas not informed about this? In his hatred of pagans could he not see beyond his hatred? There are many pagans who told to love other than “brothers”
Ken , do you think jezoz was an lover of idolaterers?
So it would seem calling someone a regard is perfectly acceptable, but pointing this double standard out is unacceptable and whomever deleted the post pointing that out is too cowardly to acknowledge it! Is it a good thing for a Christian or a Muslim to behave in such a fashion?
And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. Luke 12:47
UNBELIEVABLE! Jesus commands
The kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. Matthew 18:23-25
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16
“If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. – John 15.6
Eternal damnation and torture simply because you don’t believe?
Where’s the love in that?
The form and sound may be soothing to an Arabic speaking Muslim, but unless someone understands the intellectual content of what the speaking is saying, it is not soothing. This video seems to put the external form and sound as more important than intellectual content.
Only truth is soothing to the intellect. That is why we believe in Bible translation into languages that people can understand the intellectual content of the Bible.
I had to search for which Surah this is. it is number 79 – Nazi’at نازعات
I now see that I had read and noted verse 40 before. (non Arabic speakers need the number of the Surah, as it is difficult to know all the Arabic titles of the Surahs, especially lesser known ones.)
except only Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit (which only Christians have) can purify your soul; you are left to your own efforts and righteousness, which is filthy rags in the presence of a holy God.
You need to have Christ’s righteousness credited to your account (by repentance and faith in Christ alone) in order to be purified and righteous to face a holy and just God on judgement day.
The reciter is not Arab, btw.
And that was just his beautiful voice Tabark Allah. You should have learnt Arabic instead of Farsi.
Also, I believe that there’s an English subtitle in the video!
You speek about intellectual content!? 🙂 Then stop being a trinitrian christian since your religion has nothing to do with the intellect.
Have you tried to reflect on the great meanings of that surah?
For example verse #40 ? It’s about fearing Allah(sw)
You may recall Isaiah 11:2
Also, verse #43. It’s about the Hour, and the prophet pbuh is like all the prophets of God who have no knowledge about its time.
You may recall Jesus peace be upon him when he said the same thing that he has no knowldge about its time. It’s only Allah( sw) who knows.
Ken Temple
Totally opposite of Bible:
God loves us first and changes sinners hearts into followers and worshipers so that we can then love Him.
Romans 5:1-11
Romans 6
John 8:31-36
the truth will set you free
I say;
You are totally confused Ken.
-If your god loves us first, why will he not change the hearts of sinners but will put them to hell? Is there not hell for your God to burn sinners? If He loves them, why did he not change their heart?
-So, it is totally lie to claim Jesus loves sinners and everyone while Jesus has hell waiting for sinners who did not love and believed in him. It absolute lies and confusion from Christians and their missionaries to keep telling lies that Jesus loves sinners, Jesus loves everyone. That is not true at all. Stop preaching that otherwise you lied and hell is waiting for you.
-I corrected you on the “desire” thread where a Muslims says he does not follow his desires. I said your God Jesus Christ was tempted by satan and satan shows your God the world. If satan is not omnipresent how was he able to show your God the world and tempt every human every day?
-Satan tempts Adam and Eve and he continues to tempt us and that is the truth. Adam sin is not passed to us, except who tempted him is still tempting us today. That is why we must follow God’s Allah against the temptations of satan and his lieutenants.
Thanks.
Satan is a powerful , evil spiritual being, a fallen angel, (Ezekiel 28:13-17 – the spirit behind the king of Tyre, a cherub, a kind of angel in the garden of Eden – verse 13)
But, Satan is not omnipresent nor omniscient. Only God is omnipresent and omniscient.
Whether Satan is omnipresent or not, the truth is that he tempted Adam and Eve, Jesus, your God and all prophets. He continues to tempt us(all human beings) today and everyday. That is the truth and it should be “original temptations” not “original sin”.
Ken, stop Christianity and follow Islam. Why?
Because the original sin is wrong. Why. Did Adam and Eve sinned without Satan tempting them? No.
Adam and Eve have to be tempted by Satan before they sinned and the temptation continues today by the same Satan and never stopped.
That is why God sent his prophets including Jesus and Mohammed to remind us to follow God’s commands against Satan’s temptations.
Adam and Eve did not sinned on their own without temptation from Satan, so it is wrong to say we are already sinners by birth. If you say we have choice and freewill to sin or not, then that is correct. But we are not sinners until we commit sin. Satanic temptations facilitate us to sin like how he did to the above prophets and your (God(Jesus) himself).
When a child is born and dies he has no sin. It is unjust for God to punish anyone in the Amazon forest who did not hear about any prophet of God. Quran says, no one will be punished unless God has sent a messenger to warn them. The just God is the God of the Quran and not the Trinitarian God, who will burn babies and Amazonians because they did not know anything about Him.
Jesus does not love everyone, unless you love and believe him. Preaching otherwise is false and must be stopped if one is truthful.
You still don’t get it. Satan has helpers and they are constantly working to mislead humans from the straight path. Satan doesn’t have to be omnipresent. Your nitpicking is getting tiresome.
no, you don’t get it, since I already know that there are other demons (Satan’s helpers). Yes, they are working to mislead humans from the straight path; agreed.
Ephesians 6:10-18
Brother Faiz, ask Reverend Ken Temple again. Where did I say Satan is omnipresent? I never said so. I was just wondering how Satan was able to show his(our dear Reverend’s God) the world. I never said Satan is omnipresent. Even God does not present in my shit. God is not present in latrine, God is not present inside voodoo idol, that is why God said it is dirty. God said idols are dirty, so God is not present physically everywhere. God is not in an idol. God is not in the cow, monkeys, elephants etc. that Hindus are worshiping, otherwise he will not blame them for worshiping such cows, monkeys, elephants etc.
God is not present in the golden calf the people of Moses worshiped, otherwise God will not blame them for worshiping him in the Golden calf. Some idol worshipers like Farhan Qureish, think God is everywhere physically, so they are justify to worship God through their idols.
God is not physically present everywhere but His knowledge is everywhere. Do you understand, Ken. Muslims must be very careful when Christians start to use omnipresent to confuse them. Tell them God is not physically everywhere otherwise idol worshipers will be justified in worshiping God in their idols.
Brother Faiz, ask Reverend Ken Temple again. Where did I say Satan is omnipresent? I never said so. I was just wondering how Satan was able to show his(our dear Reverend’s God) the world. I never said Satan is omnipresent. Even God does not present in my shit. God is not present in latrine, God is not present inside voodoo idol, that is why God said it is dirty. God said idols are dirty, so God is not present physically everywhere. God is not in an idol. God is not in the cow, monkeys, elephants etc. that Hindus are worshiping, otherwise he will not blame them for worshiping such cows, monkeys, elephants etc.
God is not present in the golden calf the people of Moses worshiped, otherwise God will not blame them for worshiping him in the Golden calf. Some idol worshipers like Farhan Qureish, think God is everywhere physically, so they are justify to worship God through their idols.
God is not physically present everywhere but His knowledge is everywhere. Do you understand, Ken. Muslims must be very careful when Christians start to use omnipresent to confuse them. Tell them God is not physically everywhere otherwise idol worshipers will be justified in worshiping God in their idols.
Is God in hell? No. So God is not physically everywhere.
Ken, brother Intellect made a good point. Looking at your Bible, it seems to suggest that Satan has the power to see all the kingdoms of the Earth at the same time. That sounds like omnipresence.
I agree with Darthtimon that freedom of speech should be allowed, and the Muslims who call me “retard” and other names and curse and use filthy language – you guys (especially “mr.healthcliff, who uses dirty language – don’t you guys have commands in the Qur’an and Sunnah to tell you to not use dirty language?) disqualify yourself and your religion and you disobey Surah 29:46.
Darthtimon –
I have a sincere question for you.
Have you seen the reports that Google and Facebook is going to censor (and already has with some) speech, for example, a professor who, in his opinion, calls males men and uses “he” and females women/ladies/girls and uses “she”; and he refused to use “gender neutral pronouns”, etc. – he was censored.
The article in question doesn’t actually state the reason for his Google ban – but what are his motivations for his treatment of transgender individuals? A lot of people rally against political correctness not because of altruistic motives but because they don’t like the group they are talking about.
Do the transgenders have the right to shut us down only because we don’t agree with their trying to force the rest of us to agree with their confusion over pronouns?
Referring to someone as ‘they’ is not an uncommon way of referring to anyone, male or female, and I suspect from what I’ve been reading of that professor that his motives are not grounded in being fair or kind. He knows he’ll get a reaction and he pushes for it.
Whereas, when there are broad, sweeping measures designed to hold back the rights of transgenders (like Trump’s ban on transgenders serving in the military), it is supposedly justified?
the ban on transgenders in the military is right and sane. Transgender people have emotional and mental problems and rebellion against the way God made them. Those that struggle with “gender dysphoria” need counseling, not special rights to force against logic, science, and the meaning of language.
Women should not be in combat either. We should protect women, not let them be soldiers.
they can serve in non-combat roles, no problem, etc.
The video that Paul Williams put up with Ben Shapiro was good; Shapiro is right.
The Professor isn’t acting out of kindness or motivated by the well-being of his students. That was made clear by his statements in the article you linked to and other subsequent articles I found. His motive appears to be one of ‘poking the bear’, so to speak.
The trans ban is clearly wrong. Transgender individuals already serve in the US military and have seen combat. Some of them have been decorated for their performances. Allowing them (and women for that matter, who are tougher than you think) to serve is not granting special rights but instead practising equality.
Uh, no. Read it in context. Your laughable eisegesis will not sway anyone.
The verse is referring to those people who reject God’s message. Even if it was referring to all people, it is would only be referring to people’s own sins, not to some “original sin”. There is no reference to any such concept in the Quran.
No Sir, my dear reverend. It means, humans are not perfect. It does not mean original sin. As I said earlier, Ken. Adam and Eve did not sin on their own until tempted by Satan and Satan continues to tempt us to the extent of tempting prophets and your God.
It must be “original temptation by Satan” not “original sin”. Adams and Eve were clean, until tempted by Satan and they use their freewill and choice to sin. They are not born sinners but they are humans and therefore not perfect.
God knows that and that is how He created us and so He forgives sins free of charge, without any blood.
No Sir, my dear reverend. It means, humans are not perfect. It does not mean original sin. As I said earlier, Ken. Adam and Eve did not sin on their own until tempted by Satan and Satan continues to tempt us to the extent of tempting prophets and your God.
It must be “original temptation by Satan” not “original sin”. Adams and Eve were clean, until tempted by Satan and they use their freewill and choice to sin. They are not born sinners but they are humans and therefore not perfect.
God knows that and that is how He created us and so He forgives sins free of charge, without any blood.
When Satan tempts someone to sin and that person sins. Whose fault is it? God? No. It is the fault of Satan and the person who sinned. Not his son, not his sibling and not anyone. He is responsible for his sins and not God.
So, it will be unfair for God to kill Himself to pay a Christians who raped someone and put that Christian’s victim to hell. That is what Christianity means. Believe Jesus died for your sins by faith alone and you are saved. You rape someone as a Christian, you go free, and your victim who is not a Christian will be punished in hell. What justice is this?
“no human being will be left on the earth, If Allah was to punish/ blame everyone for their sins”
Surah 16:61
No human creature left on earth . . .
seems to indicate original sin””””””””
/////////////////////
no creature would indicate children, animals and ANYTHING moving .
ants everything. sinless creatures. where is original sin?
not ALL CREATURES are sinners, not ALL MOVING items are sinners.
and it is all HYPOTHETICAL. the quran is saying as a hypothetical not as a REALITY . You are again a liar for jesus. you are making HYPOTHETICAL which is HIGHLY UNLIKELY to take place into “original sin”
you are a idiot and a loon.
“Allah in Islam does the same thing on judgement day – he sends people (unbelievers) to the hell-fire forever.
We both believe in judgement day and eternal hell; so I don’t know why you are nitpicking on that.”
LOL, still not getting it? You’re the one who claims that God “loves” everyone. I don’t claim that Allah (swt) loves everyone. Therefore, I can “nitpick” all I want because your theology is nonsensical. It makes no sense to say that you “love” someone and then torture them with unending pain for eternity.
they tell us that the wise man will for reasonable cause make his own exit from life, on his country’s behalf or for the sake of his FRIENDS, or if he suffer intolerable pain, mutilation , or incurable disease
define original sin :
Original sin is an Augustine Christian doctrine that says that everyone is born sinful. This means that they are born with a built-in urge to do bad things and to disobey God. It is an important doctrine within the Roman Catholic Church.17 Sep 2009
“he would not have left upon the earth any moving creature”
And if Allah were to impose blame on the people (human beings) for their wrongdoing
Whose doing? the people? or the wrong doing of Adam and Eve?
Do you understand “their”? human beings and their wrong doings. Not the wrong doings of Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve were forgiven and will go to heaven. Do you think they will be in hell? No. They will be in heaven. How can they be in heaven and some go to hell for their sins but not his own sins?
Uh no. The context is talking about those who reject God’s message.
Like I said, even if it was talking about all people. there is nothing about original sin. It is talking about the specific sins of each person. That has nothing to do with original sin.
where does it say it only about those who reject God’s message?
Surah 16:61 speaks of the sins of humans, and if Allah were to judge, then ALL creatures on earth would be destroyed – seems to be talking about all humans.
Everything that happens among the sons of Adam of kufr (disbelief of the Truth), murder, enmity, hatred, the spread of immorality and fornication, the public wanton display of women’s beauty, drinking alcohol, worshiping idols and other major sins, is all the work of Satan to corrupt mankind and to drive people from following the way of Allah and drag them to the Fire of Hell with him. So, let’s remember that when we find ourselves around evil or being lured by it, Satan is engaged in his work and our task is to fend off his plans.
Allah says in the Quran: “And if an evil whisper from Shaitan (waswasa) tries to turn you away (O Muhammad) (from doing good), then seek refuge in Allah. Verily, He is the All Hearer, the All Knower” (Quran, Surah Fussilat: 36).
For once I don’t think we disagree on that. we both believe in Satan / the devil, and that he is the one who tempted humans and got them to sin the garden (Genesis 3) and they fell away from God. هبوط / حبوط
And Satan and demons are still in the world tempting people.
But also, we disagree here – since the fall in Genesis 3 caused all humans to have a sinful nature – the sinful nature ( نفس اماره و هوی )inside of us is what pulls us to sin now most of the time.
There is no sinful nature. Genesis does not say anything about that. It’s your own eisegesis.
In fact, Genesis doesn’t even mention Satan. It mentions the serpent. Christians have to assume that they are one and the same, but the text does not allow for such a link.
The Jews (and Christians) knew the serpent is Satan (the spirit behind the king of Tyre is described as Satan, the fallen angel in the garden of Eden. Ezekiel 28:13-18 – “you were in the garden of God . . . you were the anointed cherub . . . (a “cherub” is a kind of angel – before he sinned and became Satan, he was an angel)
“where does it say it only about those who reject God’s message?”
well tell me where does the quran talk about believers /righteous/ prophets in words such as “when their term (punishment) has come, they will not remain behind an hour….” ?
quote
Sahih International: And if Allah were to impose blame on the people for their wrongdoing, He would not have left upon the earth any creature, but He defers them for a specified term. And when their term has come, they will not remain behind an hour, nor will they precede [it].
“nside of us is what pulls us to sin now most of the time.”
in other words you god made easily corrupted item and this easily corrupted item is by nature made corrupt. why did your god kill himself for making corrupted human?
You said;
But also, we disagree here – since the fall in Genesis 3 caused all humans to have a sinful nature – the sinful nature ( نفس اماره و هوی )inside of us is what pulls us to sin now most of the time.
I say;
How about righteousness nature? Adam and Eve did not sin on their own accord, until tempted by Satan for them to sin. So, what causes the sinful nature nature to sin? Satan not the fall. Adam and Eve sinned in heaven or wherever they are before falling. They have righteousness nature too. Is that righteousness nature the result of the falling? No.
Human can decide to do good(righteousness) or bad(sinfulness). So, it is the temptation of Satan that pulls us to sin, and not our nature. We have righteous nature too. Following God’s commands will lead us to righteousness against Satan’s temptations to sinfulness. The fall does not count here. Follow God and the truth and be righteous or follow Satan and lies and be sinful. Don’t depend on sinful nature or the fall, they will not help you. Depend on God and obey His command and follow the truth, then you will be free from sinful nature and Satan.
///////////////////////////////////
“no creature left on earth” implies that all humans are sinners, even babies – since all creatures would be destroyed./////////////////////////
quote :
Yusuf Ali: If Allah were to punish men for their wrong-doing, He would not leave, on the (earth), a single living creature:
all it says is that the earth would be cleared from ANY living creature. you are ASSUMING that “leaving” IMPLIES destroying every single living creation including babies, children, animals etc. but is that what the verse is really saying ? the people who are punished are the wrong doers, there is not even one hint in this verse that children do wrong. you are reading your criminal mind into the text.
“Yusuf Ali: If Allah were to punish men for their wrong-doing, He would not leave, on the (earth), a single living creature:”
i wonder if there are OTHER ways to read this verse instead of your christian way.
If ALLAH punishes WRONGDOERS, He would CLEAR the earth from ANY LIVING CREATURE.
BUT you WANT TO lump ALL living creature UNDER “wrongdoer” even though verse explicitly says “He would NOT leave….”
LOL, so you don’t know what reading in context means. Got it. That’s all you had to say, Ken. There is no shame in not being able to read.
Here is what I mean by reading in context:
“To those who believe not in the Hereafter, applies the similitude of evil: to Allah applies the highest similitude: for He is the Exalted in Power, full of Wisdom.
If Allah were to punish men for their wrong-doing, He would not leave, on the (earth), a single living creature: but He gives them respite for a stated Term: When their Term expires, they would not be able to delay (the punishment) for a single hour, just as they would not be able to anticipate it (for a single hour).
They attribute to Allah what they hate (for themselves), and their tongues assert the falsehood that all good things are for themselves: without doubt for them is the Fire, and they will be the first to be hastened on into it!”
Who is “they”? If read contextually, we can see that it seems to refer to the “people” in verse 61. Thus, it is referring to those who reject God’s message.
Those with knowledge can see that the Quran never upholds the idiotic idea of original sin, as the following verses show:
4:112 – But if any one earns a fault or a sin and throws it on to one that is innocent, He carries (on himself) (Both) a falsehood and a flagrant sin.
4:17-18 – Allah accepts the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and repent soon afterwards; to them will Allah turn in mercy: For Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom. Of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil, until death faces one of them, and he says, “Now have I repented indeed;” nor of those who die rejecting Faith: for them have We prepared a punishment most grievous.
35:18 – Nor can a bearer of burdens bear another’s burdens if one heavily laden should call another to (bear) his load. Not the least portion of it can be carried (by the other). Even though he be nearly related. Thou canst but admonish such as fear their Lord unseen and establish regular Prayer. And whoever purifies himself does so for the benefit of his own soul; and the destination (of all) is to Allah.
“The Jews (and Christians) knew the serpent is Satan (the spirit behind the king of Tyre is described as Satan, the fallen angel in the garden of Eden. Ezekiel 28:13-18 – “you were in the garden of God . . . you were the anointed cherub . . . (a “cherub” is a kind of angel – before he sinned and became Satan, he was an angel)
Uh, no. The author(s) of Genesis did not seem to be familiar with Satan. In fact, the serpent is specifically referred to as a “wild animal”, not as a fallen angel:
“Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made.”
And even God refers to the serpent as an animal, not as an angel or a cherub:
““Cursed are you above all livestock and all wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life.”
Since when does Satan crawl on his belly and eat dust?
Jewish interpreters – some take it literally, some as metaphor for evil inclinations (interesting !), some see it as Satan coming in the form of a serpent/dragon-lizard. In Christian literature, Satan is also called a dragon, so “serpent” could mean a kind of reptile with legs like a dragon-lizard, and then when God cursed it, the legs were gone. Revelation 12:9
“And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.”
Lol, so now you are interested in the different interpretations? You really are a dishonest, inconsistent missionary.
What does the text say? Why does God refer to the serpent as a wild animal? If it was Satan I’m disguise, did he fool God into thinking he was just an animal? Give it up Ken. Learn to admit when you are wrong about something.
Another point you left out is that 2 Samuel 22 is about David’s victories over his enemies and Saul, (Saul dies at the end of 1 Samuel and beginning 2 Sam. chapter 1) – so this Psalm (it is also Psalm 18) was composed before his sin with Bathsheba in 2 Samuel 11; and compare with 1 Kings 15:5).
” . . . each individual is responsible for his/her own sins.”
Christianity and the Bible does not deny that. God holds us all responsible for our own sins, even though we inherited that corrupt nature (and the legal guilt) from Adam down to our parents. Since we will sin – by the first selfish act of 2 or 3 years of age, we are responsible for our own sins.
There is also the understanding of the age of accountability and the idea of elect infants – but no one knows who – but God knows, and we have to trust God and leave that knowledge and mystery to Him. As you Muslims say, “Allah knows best”. We agree with you on that principle, when Scripture does not tell us enough information.
another problem with your article is that sometimes “righteous” just means that they are God-fearing believers, as in the case of Zechariah and Elizabeth and Job, Noah, and Daniel.
If you read the book of Job, it calls him a righteous man, God-fearing, and without blame, but that does not mean sinless, as the rest of the book of Job shows.
Another thing you left out is Jesus taught original sin in:
Matthew 7:11
If you being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children . . .
and
Mark 7:20-23
evil thoughts come from within, from the heart of man
Jeremiah 17:9
and
Genesis 6:5 (with 8:21)
also teach original sin by a corrupt selfish nature.
Faiz,
I am reading your article on “original sin” and I want to commend you on the facts that it is well written, good foot- notes, wide range of research, and the layout of it is very pleasing to the eyes. I commend you on including some good links to some good articles from Reformed-Protestant, Roman Catholic, early church fathers, and Jewish sources.
While I disagree with your conclusions; and you left out some important information; over all, it is a positive step in dialogue / discussion / debate that you as a Muslim has with the Christian doctrine of “original sin”.
I have not digested it fully yet, but I wanted to start with a positive word on that article and I am enjoying reading it and looking up what you have referenced.
Several things off the top of my head.
1. You referenced a very good article from Desiring God on original sin. One of the key verses you left out was Ephesians 2:1-3 – especially verse 3 that says we are “by nature, children of wrath”. This points to the change in nature of Adam and Eve from innocence to a nature of selfishness and corruption.
2. The hyssop was the brush for applying the blood of the sacrificial animal, so Psalm 51:7 refers to the application of the blood of the sacrificial animal, as in Exodus 12:22 – applying the blood of the passover lamb on the sides and top of the doorpost in order to avert the wrath of God against sin. David, in Psalm 51, was affirming that he needed the sacrificial sacrifice of the substitutionary sinless animal to be slaughtered; along with repentance and a broken heart over sin. Verses 16-19 show the important of heart-felt repentance, that without that, the sacrifices don’t mean anything without true internal repentance – they are just empty rituals.
3. The Hebrew word Na’ar נער has a range of meaning – it can refer to a new born infant – 2 Samuel 12:16 (Bathsheba’s new born baby) and Moses as a baby – Exodus 2:6. So Genesis 8:21 also includes babies and infants as sinners and selfish. That is why we have to teach children of 3 and upward right from wrong.
“Our Lord, do not IMPOSE BLAME upon us if we have forgotten or erred. Our Lord, and lay not upon us a burden like that which You laid upon those before us. Our Lord, and burden us not with that which we have no ability to bear. And pardon us; and forgive us; and have mercy upon us. You are our protector, so give us victory over the disbelieving people.”
can you tell me the arabic words for the capitalized ken?
“why do you say “dishonest, inconsistent” ?
I saw this after I wrote you a positive note. Wow. Sometimes you are not fair in your judgments.
As a Christian, we go by the NT interpretation of Genesis 3 on the serpent, which is in:
2 Cor. 11:3
Revelation 12:9
Revelation 20:2
I don’t know where you got the idea that I don’t acknowledge the existence of a variety of interpretations of Scripture. They exist.”
When Muslims show you the Jewish interpretations of Isaiah 53 or some other passage in the Bible, you usually reject them outright. But here, you are appealing to the various opinions when it suits your purpose. That is why you are dishonest and inconsistent.
Now, it is widely acknowledged by scholars that Judaism had a gradual development of the concept of Satan. In fact, most modern Jews deny that Satan is an evil being. Rather, they say that he is just an agent of God who is sent to test humans. “Ha-Satan” literally means “The Adversary”, so he is understood not as the devil but the agent of God.
This gradual development can be seen in the Tanakh. Genesis says nothing about Satan. The serpent is a wild animal that can talk. That is it. Even God is said to refer to it as an animal and not as an angel. In fact, if it was an angel or cherub, there is no reason to refer to it as an animal. Cherubs are mentioned later in Genesis after Adam and Eve were expelled and God wanted to guard the Garden of Eden from trespassers.
That is not dishonest or inconsistent. It is a matter of acknowledging that some Jewish interpreters DO and DID see the serpent as Satan in the form of a serpent, which is consistent with the Christian view.
Of course I reject the modern Jewish interpetation of Isaiah 53; but the first Christians were ALL ( or 95 %) were Jews in the first century. (Peter, John, James, Saul of Tarsus, Barnabas, Philip, Stephen, James half-brother of Jesus, Jude, Mary and the women at the cross and in Acts early chapters, etc.
It is you who seems dishonest and inconsistent when you seem to ignore and constantly skip over the first century Jewish Christians’ interpretations. for example on Isaiah 53 – Matthew, John, Paul, Peter, Mark, are all consistent on that interpretation.
LOL, the problem is that you don’t know that these “1st century Jews” wrote the books that bear their names. You are just appealing to circular arguments. The 1st-century Jews still believed that the law was to be followed. But then you guys say they were wrong. You pick and choose which facts you want to believe. That is why you are dishonest and inconsistent.
The fact remains that the text of Genesis does NOT refer to Satan. No where is the word “Ha-Satan” used. You still have not explained why the text refers to the serpent as an animal instead of as an angel. Appealing to the various interpretations doesn’t answer the question. In Job, Satan is referred to as one of the “sons of God” or Bene Ha-Elohim (i.e. an angel). Hence, he is clearly shown as an agent of God and not as the devil. This shows the gradual development of the concept of Satan in Jewish sources. It also shows that the books are not “inspired” but are the works of anonymous authors who were telling stories and myths rather than the word of God.
“It is you who seems dishonest and inconsistent when you seem to ignore and constantly skip over the first century Jewish Christians’ interpretations. for example on Isaiah 53 – Matthew, John, Paul, Peter, Mark, are all consistent on that interpretation.”
you left out luke because you know that luke is not agreeing with pauls version which sees jesus as a sacrificed animal. luke goes back to isaiah 53 and does not link jesus to passage which might be interpreted as ritual acts done in the temple.
paul also knows christians who preach a different christ .
there is clearly difference between “suffering person”
and “atoning person”
and we know luke does not see an ATONING person but a praying person.
///
think about this. you are in first century and you as a christian inform a jew that isaiah 53 predicted atoning for sins messiah and at the same time the jew is under occupation and see you celebrate the resurrection of jesus. wouldn’t the jew laugh himself silly?
“No; it says “no human being will be left on the earth, If Allah was to punish/ blame everyone for their sins”
Which seems to agree with the bible which states that there is no sinless human being except for Jesus.
Which implies that the Islamic prophets are not humans but some kind of hybrid between man and God, if they were sinless.
Which also explains why the Muslims didn’t bury Mohammed after he died but let him stink for a while.
Which just means there must be some determinant cause for this state of affairs which the bible clearly explains in the form of the fall of Adam and the consequent corruption of human nature, and the Quran does not.
Erasmus
You forgot “Original Temptations” by Satan to Adam and Eve that caused them to sin and hammering on sin alone that did not come without temptation.
Adam and Eve did not commit sin until they were tempted by Satan to cause them to use their freewill and choice to sin. This Satan continues to tempt us till today and he tempted all prophets including your God Jesus and he showed him(your God Jesus) the world.
If racism and insult and property damage and disorderly conduct is a sin, then Jesus sinned according to the Bible. He would have been arrested today and put to jail by his action.
The temptation should also be a concern to you because that will cause you to sin. Original Sin by Adam and Eve will not cause you to sin but Satanic temptations, so beware of satanic temptations instead of original sin which is somebody’s sin and has nothing to do with you. It is the temptations that you have to worry about.
Quran about the temptation of Satan.
“Then the Shaitan (Satan) made them slip there from (the Paradise), and got them out from that in which they were. We said: “Get you down, all, with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be a dwelling place for you and an enjoyment for a time” (Quran, Surah Al-Baqarah: 36).
“O Children of Adam! Let not Shaitan (Satan) deceive you, as he got your parents (Adam and Hawwa’ (Eve)) out of Paradise,” (Quran, Surah Al-Aaraf: 27).
“. . . and follow not the footsteps of ‘Shaitan’ (Satan). Surely he is to you an open enemy” (Quran, Surah Al-Anaam: 142).
So, Allah has made it clear to mankind that Satan is their enemy and Satan’s goal is to divert mankind from the goal that Allah established for them, which is to follow and worship Allah by obeying His commands. Satan’s goal is to make mankind disobey Allah and divert them to the hell fire in the hereafter, which will also be Satan’s abode. Allah says in the Quran:
“Surely, Shaitan (Satan) is an enemy to you, so take (treat) him as an enemy. He only invites his Hizb (followers) that they may become the dwellers of the blazing Fire” (Surah Faatir 35:6).
“Which seems to agree with the bible which states that there is no sinless human being except for Jesus.”
wrong, jesus had to burn an olah offer for just begging god to save him from the cross.
jesus made a prayer 3 times and making such a prayer would be wrong because it is a PRAYER AGAINST WHAT GOD WANTED, so jesus neededto make an olah offering which indicates he was sinful in thought and action.
“Which seems to agree with the bible which states that there is no sinless human being except for Jesus.”
you see man worshiper, when we tell christians that “not all jews” washed their hands before meals, christians say “all ” does not mean “all”
so lets try to understand that verse in quranic context.
52. This attitude of contempt towards daughters has been mentioned to bring home to them the height of their folly, ignorance and impudence in regard to God. This is why they did not hesitate to assign daughters to Allah, though they themselves felt that to have daughters was a matter of disgrace for them. Besides this, it shows that they had a very low estimation of Allah, which had resulted from their ways of shirk. So they felt nothing wrong in ascribing such foolish and absurd things to Allah Who is above such things.
currently, according to the quran, the heavens are begging God to burst open SO God bring punishment on polytheists who worship idols , trinity and human beings, but God says He is merciful:
Those who have said that the Messiah, son of Mary, is God, have, in fact, committed themselves to disbelief. (Muhammad), ask them, “Who can prevent God from destroying the Messiah, his mother and all that is in the earth?” To God belongs all that is in the heavens, the earth, and all that is between them. God creates whatever He wants and He has power over all things.
This would imply everything is taken out. even sinless things. the ayah you think refers to original sin is really talking about major crimes like worshiping other than God.
so “men” cannot mean ALL men, but simply polytheists like you.
” “no human being will be left on the earth, If Allah was to punish/ blame everyone for their sins”
So if all are sinners freewill does not exist, otherwise it would be possible for someone to freely choose never to sin. Allah denies that this person will ever exist.
You forgot in your theology, no human is perfect? We believe that too. Allah is saying here in the verse that, no human is perfect. it is only God who is perfect. Do you get it now?
No one is perfect, except God alone. Don’t you believe that? Jesus was not perfect because he insulted people, destroyed property and cast racist slur on a woman.
If you know these things, you are blessed if you do them. 18 I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But it is to fulfill the scripture, ‘The one who ate my bread[e] has lifted his heel against me.’
jesus think the “me” is him
now go and read psalm 41. 1-13
The prophets could make mistakes, just like any man could. The difference is that they could never deliberately disobey God. Of course, you would have known that if you weren’t an Ignoramus. 🙂
“Another point you left out is that 2 Samuel 22 is about David’s victories over his enemies and Saul, (Saul dies at the end of 1 Samuel and beginning 2 Sam. chapter 1) – so this Psalm (it is also Psalm 18) was composed before his sin with Bathsheba in 2 Samuel 11; and compare with 1 Kings 15:5).”
That is irrelevant because David specifically says that he was blameless. That implies that he was not sinful from birth, as Christians claim when they misuse Psalm 51:5. That is the point.
Lol, Cerberus opens his mouth to bark and makes an even bigger fool of himself! Where ya been boy? Too busy chasing your own tail or licking your you know what?
Educate yourself by reading my article you moron so you dont keep making a fool of yourself. I discused Psalm 51. Now be a good boy and let the humans talk. 🙂
Ken, finish reading my article on original sin first and then comment. You are all over the place and many of the points you raise are actually dealt with in the article.
Once you have read it, I will respond to your points inshaAllah.
“another problem with your article is that sometimes “righteous” just means that they are God-fearing believers, as in the case of Zechariah and Elizabeth and Job, Noah, and Daniel.”
notice how you easily said “just means…”
i quote :
A tzadik is someone who ACTS according to God’s LAWS – he/she lives a life of TZEDEK (justice – the state of being law abiding) and DOING TZEDAKAH (justice-love) to his fellow humans. A rasha (a wicked person) is someone who does not live according to God’s Laws, he does not fulfill his duties of tzedakah (justice-love) to his fellow humans.
So Adam and Eve came into the world innocent and pure from all sin, but they were not yet tzaddikim until God taught them His laws. Once they were aware of God’s laws, they could then choose whether to DO His laws or whether to NOT DO them. When they chose to do God’s laws they were tzadikim. But they were not created tzadikim.
////////////////////
they were not only “god fearing”
they KEPT HONEST TO THE COMMANDS of god. they did the commands of god. no jesus needed. your own bible tells you jesus is not required for salvation.
“The prophets could make mistakes, just like any man could. The difference is that they could never deliberately disobey God. Of course, you would have known that if you weren’t an Ignoramus. ”
A mistake is still a sin in the bible. A sin of negligence.
“1And if a soul sin, and hear the voice of swearing, and is a witness, whether he hath seen or known of it; if he do not utter it, then he shall bear his iniquity. 2Or if a soul touch any unclean thing, whether it be a carcase of an unclean beast, or a carcase of unclean cattle, or the carcase of unclean creeping things, and if it be hidden from him; he also shall be unclean, and guilty.
Does Allah lower the bar for Muslims?
Perhaps I’m committing shirk by mistake. I’m sure I can count on Allah’s mercy.
” 2 Or when any of you touch any unclean thing—whether the carcass of an unclean beast or the carcass of unclean livestock or the carcass of an unclean swarming thing—and are unaware of it, you have become unclean, and are guilty. 3 Or when you touch human uncleanness—any uncleanness by which one can become unclean—and are unaware of it, when you come to know it, you shall be guilty. 4 Or when any of you utter aloud a rash oath for a bad or a good purpose, whatever people utter in an oath, and are unaware of it, when you come to know it, you shall in any of these be guilty. ”
interesting, you seem to have shot your god roughly. when jesus touched the dead girls hand he deliberately trashed the torah. if he was REALLY torah observant, he would not have gone near the dead girls dead body, but stayed outside and done the cure through words, like he did with the gentiles daughter. distant miracle. yes, jesus broke torah law all the time.
Oh poor Ignoramus, you are not committing shirk by mistake. You are committing it on purpose. You know that you worship a man, but you makes excuses for it, just like any pagan would. If you die in that state, then there is no mercy for you. There is only hell.
However, if you repent now and amend your life, you can count on Allah’s mercy.
The point is that Allah (swt) does not automatically condemn us for making mistakes. He is not like your bloodthirsty god. Allah (swt) loves to forgive those who sincerely repent and try to change their ways. He only does not forgive those who persist in sin as a deliberate act of rebellion against Him.
“Allah accepts the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and repent soon afterwards; to them will Allah turn in mercy: For Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom. Of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil, until death faces one of them, and he says, “Now have I repented indeed;” nor of those who die rejecting Faith: for them have We prepared a punishment most grievous.”
Anyone who has contact with a corpse of any human being will be impure for seven days.
Anyone who has touched the corpse of any human being who had died and does not purify himself has defiled Yahweh’s Tabernacle, and that person will be cut off from Israel
“The dead was seen as impure and any contact with it resulted in that individual contracting a highly contagious impurity. Such ideas are similar to how we view highly contagious diseases! Again, these were the beliefs of ancient peoples, cultures, and their gods—Yahweh included!”
what did you say? negligence of the yhwhs laws and rituals?
Blogging Theology 
CH let me quote Richard Dawkins
“The idea that God can only forgive our sins, by having his son tortured and killed as a scapegoat is surely from an object point of view a deeply unpleasant idea. If God wanted to forgive us our sins why didn’t he just forgive them? Why did he have to torture his so called son? God was in the position to accept any ransom he chose presumably why on earth would he have his son tortured for the sin of something who lived millions of year ago. Saying that if we were to use the biblical timeline then it would be around five thousand years ago?
So Adam was disobedient and that sin reverberated down to mankind throughout the ages is inherited by all humans. What kind of a doctrine is that? Inherited by all humans and had to be redeemed by the so called son of god being tortured, what kind of a morality are you propagating there?”
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Where does that come from, “we have no right to insult religion”?
Let every religion do as it wants? I guess you would have left the Aztecs alone to carry on their business as usual?
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Unllke you Christians we would not have committed utter genocide upon the Aztecs if that is what u mean.
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Why does my post keep getting deleted? Is the point not valid? Freedom of speech is a real thing – that includes the right to be critical of religion. If people are sure and confident of their faith they will be able to handle criticism no?
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So many questions in a universe without purpose
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But not a single answer as yet…
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“Freedom of speech is a real thing” a-ha
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Do you think it shouldn’t be?
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Funny how you – atheist – make value judgements all the time.
Another meaningless question in meaningless world.
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“religion excused from criticism” – maybe in your little world
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What question? Don’t know why your comment is deleted. Maybe because you are boring …
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It shouldn’t. It isn’t. It ain’t and it don’t. Welcome to planet earth.
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No I don’t. There is a difference between criticism and insult. Yawn.
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Paul Williams put that up and said Dawkins has no right to insult religion.
And yet, when I defended Christian doctrine on Twitter with Paul, (I think it was yesterday) he started calling me names like “nutter” and “loon” etc.
you were the one who resorted to name calling; I was just defending Christian doctrine.
Yet you complain when Dawkins attacks Islam – that is his opinion.
And Paul, you insult the Christian religion all the time by your attacks on Christianity, the Bible, the Deity of Christ, the Trinity, atonement, the cross, Jesus as God in the flesh, the incarnation, justification by faith alone, salvation by grace alone.
What is the difference between your insults and Dawkins’ insults?
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When I read your comments which are by most just a repetitive preaching about the nonsense of your religion, I can see what br. Paul probably went through with you, especially that you have not provided satisfied answers about its validity, its historicity, or the logic behind it.
You are just a fundamental christian who thinks that telling muslims that Jesus died for thier sins would affect smehow on them.
This is so stupid, indeed.
I really encourage you to read Quran with a humble spirit before Allah(sw) who is Jesus’ God and your God.
Your life is enclosed about a god who became a created being to die on the cross in the first century C.E.
“So have they not traveled through the earth and have hearts by which to reason and ears by which to hear? For indeed, it is not eyes that are blinded, but blinded are the hearts which are within the breasts.” QT S22:46
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I already have read Qu’ran. no power, dry ritualistic, external, legalistic, not much grace or love; it is the opposite of the Bible –
in Qur’an – “Allah will love you if you love him first”shows that the Qur’an limits Allah, because “Allah does not love sinners” (Qur’an 2:190; 2:276; 3:32; 3:57; 7:31; 4:36; 8:58; 28:77; 57:23); yet the Bible says, “God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” Romans 5:8
Bible – “God demonstrates His own love for us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” Romans 5:8
“Peace I give to you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you, do not let your heart be troubled . . . ” John 14:27
Islam: We pray for peace to be upon the prophets.
If they are with God in heaven, they ALREADY have peace. Why pray that?
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A Muslim admitted to me that one who dies for his enemies has greater love.
http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2010/08/muslim-admits-that-one-who-dies-for-his.html
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But Jesus said:
“But I tell you : Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Matthew 5:44-48)
• Allah loves those who are pure and clean al-Baqarah 2:222 (specifically taking about women being clean from their menstruation period).
• Allah loves those who do good al-Baqarah 2:195; Âl ‘Imran 3:134
• Allah loves those who keep faith and act rightly Âl ‘Imran 3:76
“In all the examples above, the love of God is conditional upon the believer being good or clean. If the believer should turn back from God, Allah does not love him any more (Âl ‘Imran 3:32).”
If you love Allah, then Allah will love you. Qur’an Al Imran 3:31
Allah does not forgive those that ascribe partners to Allah; Allah only forgives who he wants to forgive. Surah 4:48
Allah does not love those who reject Faith, Âl ‘Imran 3:32
Allah does not love the arrogant, the vainglorious, an-Nisa’ “Women” 4:36
Allah does not love the ungrateful or wicked, al-Baqarah 2:276
Allah does not love transgressors, al-Baqarah 2:190
Allah does not love wrongdoers, Âl ‘Imran 3:57,140
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Ken the bible teaches all the same stuff that you listed from the Qur’an.
Remember God loves Jacob and not Esau. Remember the death penalty for apostates and blasphemers in the Torah which Jesus affirmed as Gods law. Remember that hell awaits the unbelievers that he will destroy in Revelation of John. Remember Jesus teaching that eternal life is gained through obedience to the law.
Silly sausage 😒
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But Romans 5:8 shows God’s love comes first without conditions, and in spite of being bad (Jacob was a deceiver and did not deserve God’s love and grace) and then He changes the hearts of those He sets His love on out of grace, not legalism. Some from all nations, tribes, languages are purchased out of sinfulness to be redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 5:9; 7:9
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Paul contradicts both Jesus and the Torah on this issue. Nothing new here.
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Saheen already addressed https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=um_v8a1D2ug
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“I already have read Qu’ran. no power, dry ritualistic, external, legalistic, not much grace or love; it is the opposite of the Bible ”
Allah (sw) is not something that you shape in your head first, and then you try to find what matchs to your pagan thoughts about God.
Why do you think jews have no problem with Quran regarding how Allah (sw) speaks about himself? They are so familiar with its language. What’s the reason in your opinion?
Quran is indeed the most powerful word you will ever read.
Read Quran again with a broken spirit, a humble one. Don’t read it as a blind missionary. Don’t prevent yourself from receiving that light. Ask Allah(sw) the guidance as Jesus did.
Then are you serious when quote Paul as something to face Quran with!?What a darkness that you are in, man!
Reagrding the argument of love! It’s the most stupid argument I have ever heard. You make your god be a created being to prove that your god is all loving? What’s really special when you confess that statan is loved by god as god loves saints?
“Or do those who commit evils think We will make them like those who have believed and done righteous deeds – [make them] equal in their life and their death? Evil is that which they judge.” QT.
Yes Allah(sw) don’t love those who do evil deeds. What’s wrong of that? But in the same time he is so merciful toward them, so he provides them with time to repent, food, health … etc.
Your God in the bible does hate certain people as well !
Also, what kind of love is that which involves telling your beloved people that they have to keep the law which cannot be kept in the first place, then you punish them severely once they break that “garabage” law! , and when he(i.e your god) suddenly decided to love them, he came as a disguised man speaking with parables so they hear but they don’t understand as if teaching them that he is not a man for 1500 yeas i s not enough?
I repeat my advice, Ken . Read Quran. Start with surah 7 or 10.
Live that journey, and InshaAllah you are gonna experience something very different and very deep.
And yes we pray for peace for the prophets. We and the prophets always need for Peace from Allah(sw). We still need Allah whether you are righteous or not. Also, it’s a reminder for us that those men are created beings not divine beings.
Man, your “god” himself was asking his disciples to pray with him for him!
The question you should ask yourself is that why your god can do nothing by his own authority,and why he needed to ask his god while he himself is god , especially that you keep telling us that he has not ceased to be god!
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But why do the prophets in heaven with Allah need to be prayed for to have peace?
When believers die, doesn’t their soul/spirit go to be with Allah in paradise?
I guess not. From what I remember, in Islam, your soul / spirit is in the grave with the body, awaiting the day of resurrection and judgment, right?
So, there is no assurance of peace, even for the believers.
But when Christians die, our spirits / souls go straight to heaven to be with God and there is an assurance and true hope of peace and eternal life, because Jesus promised this. For example, John 5:24; Matthew 11:28-30; John 3:16; John 14:27; Romans 5:1-11
2 Corinthians 5:6-11
in the day of resurrection, the bodies will be re-united with the soul / spirit. John 5:28-29
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oh sh:t ken, we are told to keep in mind that papias never ever mentions the gospel of john.
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“So, there is no assurance of peace, even for the believers.”
you have no assurance. you may think you are doing right, but satan, according to paul is powerful enough to delude you into thinking you are doing right, it could be your original sin stained nature deceiving you that you are doing right, but even your own god tells you you have no assurance because it is possible you will be told “depart from me…”
here is what assurance means
“full confidence; freedom from doubt; certainty:”
yet you don’t know this and it can only be told to you on day of judgement, but TODAY , this HOUR , you are TOO CONFIDENT , too confident that all your present and future crimes have been atoned and you are DEFINATELY going to heaven. i call this arrogance and i believe the powerful SATANIC delusion is your god, your “holy spirit”
you really have no assurance because you have no proof for it. you have TEXTS, but these TEXTS TELL you that satan is POWERFUL enough to delude you and on day of judgement you will be told to “depart from me and burn in hell”
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Ken Temple
August 3, 2017 • 4:38 pm
But why do the prophets in heaven with Allah need to be prayed for to have peace?
When believers die, doesn’t their soul/spirit go to be with Allah in paradise?
I guess not. From what I remember, in Islam, your soul / spirit is in the grave with the body, awaiting the day of resurrection and judgment, right?
So, there is no assurance of peace, even for the believers.
I say;
Learn Islam very well. Our soul goes straight to God whether Muslim or non Muslim. God raises each soul from the grave or where one died for initial questioning and will be questioned in the day of judgement again.
The soul of all humans after death is with God. He can raise them anytime he wishes for His own purpose. If God will put souls in paradise or not, that is His own prerogative.
There is an assurance in the Quran that all Muslims will enter paradise eventually. No religion has visited heaven and back and so no religion can claim his religious assurance is the only correct one. It is just a belief. Christians/Muslims/Jews/Hindus/ even Idol worshipers have their own assurances. None have visited heaven and back with pictures of them and God swimming in the garden. That nonsense of Christians alone have assurance of heaven must be stopped. Any one can claim assurance of heaven without proof, like how the Christians are doing.
Thanks.
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Surah 3:31
YUSUF ALI
Say: “If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
Say, [O Muhammad], “If you should love Allah, then follow me, [so] Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.”
Totally opposite of Bible:
God loves us first and changes sinners hearts into followers and worshipers so that we can then love Him.
Romans 5:1-11
Romans 6
John 8:31-36
the truth will set you free
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Right, he “loves” you first but will then burn you in hell for eternity if you don’t love him back. Sooo impressive…
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Those who experience God’s saving love are drawn all the way to faith and a changed life.
John 6:44
Ephesians 1:4-14
Romans 5:1-11
Romans 6:1-23
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So then not everyone has God’s love. Thanks for admitting it. 🙂
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All people have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23), except for Jesus Christ, the perfect and sinless Son of God.
The vessels of wrath get wrath (those that don’t believe in Christ and as a result of their own sinfulness, they are justly judged in hell); the vessels of mercy (those that repent and believe in Christ) experience God’s love. Romans 9:22-23.
The vessels of mercy did not deserve mercy or grace. They were sinners just as much as those who will not believe in Christ.
Romans 5:8
For God demonstrates His own love for us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
God so loved the world of sinners (John 3:16) – some people from every nation, people group, tribe, and language were purchased / redeemed by the blood of the lamb. Revelation 5:9
It is a great multitude of which no one can count from every nation (ethnicity), tribe, language and people group. Revelation 7:9
God shows His justice against sinners who do not repent and believe.
God shows His love and mercy toward sinners from all the nations on those who repent and believe in Christ.
The difference is in Islam there is no category for God showing His mercy First on sinners from all nations; rather in Islam, the human must do works of effort and rituals and believe in Allah and Muhammad and submission FIRST and prove himself worthy and maybe Inshall’allah they will make it to paradise; but there is no assurance of peace or salvation. Abdullah Kunde admitted this, that in the end Allah can send even the believers to hell if He wants to. (in his debate vs. Samuel Green on Salvation, “Savior of the Word: Jesus or the Qur’an?”)
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2011/01/saviour-of-world-jesus-or-quran.html
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The father in trinity doesn’t love you. The father who is greater than jc sent jc as a postman delivers letters. The father sent jc for divinely prescribed whooping .
So father is portrayed as
1.delivery postman
2. whooper
3.distant person who can never come into friendship with humans
4.tells humans they are diseased
the son is portrayed as more loving than the father because in trinity the son saves fristians from doing Torah laws and dies for them. Father sits while son is send and punished . Father needs appeasement and sends son so fristians can eat and drink a wounded and pierced god leaving empty tomb with no clothing.
yes, father is portrayed as far, cold, distant.
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Ken Temple
Jesus said;
Luke 19:27
New International Version
But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them–bring them here and kill them in front of me.'”
Were is “love” here?
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Excellent point. The empty statements of “love” that these missionaries make are designed to fool the gullible, but reasonable people will not be swayed by such childish arguments.
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Luke 19:27 is a parable about judgement day in the future against unbelievers who don’t repent & believe in Christ = don’t submit to Him.
the unbelievers = “those who did not want Me to king over them” = those that don’t repent and believe in Jesus – they will be justly punished in hell forever.
Mark 9:47-48 – hell, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.
Revelation 14:10 – unbelievers are tortured forever in hell under God’s wrath in the presence of the Lamb. (see also Rev. 20:10-15)
“kill them in front of Me” = symbol of eternal hell in justice – symbol of Mark 9:47-48; Revelation 14:10; Revelation 20:10-15
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Ken Temple
Totally opposite of Bible:
God loves us first and changes sinners hearts into followers and worshipers so that we can then love Him.
Romans 5:1-11
Romans 6
John 8:31-36
the truth will set you free
I say;
You are totally confused Ken.
-If your god loves us first, why will he not change the hearts of sinners but will put them to hell? Is there not hell for your God to burn sinners? If He loves them, why did he not change their heart?
-So, it is totally lie to claim Jesus loves sinners and everyone while Jesus has hell waiting for sinners who did not love and believed in him. It absolute lies and confusion from Christians and their missionaries to keep telling lies that Jesus loves sinners, Jesus loves everyone. That is not true at all. Stop preaching that otherwise you lied and hell is waiting for you.
-I corrected you on the “desire” thread where a Muslims says he does not follow his desires. I said your God Jesus Christ was tempted by satan and satan shows your God the world. If satan is not omnipresent how was he able to show your God the world and tempt every human every day?
-Satan tempts Adam and Eve and he continues to tempt us and that is the truth. Adam sin is not passed to us, except who tempted him is still tempting us today. That is why we must follow God’s Allah against the temptations of satan and his lieutenants.
Thanks.
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Ken Temple
Muslims love Jesus first, but Jesus did not love them back but will still put them in hell fire. Where is Jesus love here? Every Muslim loves Jesus Christ and it is our faith to love Jesus Christ. But Jesus does not love us back. So, it is a big lie to say Jesus loves everyone. Your Jesus does not love even those who loves him. I swear I love Jesus. But Ken Temple’s Jesus does not love me, even though I love him. Why should Ken Temple tell me that his Jesus loves me first, when it is the opposite, his Jesus does not love me first, even though I love Jesus?
There are many people who are not Muslims and/or Christians but they love Jesus and Jesus does not love them back and will burn them in hell fire. So, it is deception, lies, and untruth to keep preaching Jesus loves everyone when it is exactly the opposite.
Thanks Ken, come to Islam and stop confusing yourself.
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Ken Temple
August 3, 2017 • 4:42 pm
Luke 19:27 is a parable about judgement day in the future against unbelievers who don’t repent & believe in Christ = don’t submit to Him.
the unbelievers = “those who did not want Me to king over them” = those that don’t repent and believe in Jesus – they will be justly punished in hell forever.
Mark 9:47-48 – hell, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.
Revelation 14:10 – unbelievers are tortured forever in hell under God’s wrath in the presence of the Lamb. (see also Rev. 20:10-15)
“kill them in front of Me” = symbol of eternal hell in justice – symbol of Mark 9:47-48; Revelation 14:10; Revelation 20:10-15
I say;
Bob Marley-“Is this love?”
Is the above love? torturing people in hell forever by Jesus Christ, your God. You call this love. May be you have to go back to school and learn what love is. You have to guts to blame someone’s God about love, when your God does not love first, some people who loves him.
Thanks.
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Allah in Islam does the same thing on judgement day – he sends people (unbelievers) to the hell-fire forever.
We both believe in judgement day and eternal hell; so I don’t know why you are nitpicking on that.
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Ken, you’re blowing hot air again.
There is in fact assurance of salvation to Muslims. It’s mentioned in many places in the Quran and Ahadith.
Also, the fact that Allah (swt) sends His message to all people, regardless of their background or ethnicity, shows that He actually wants everyone to be saved. However, they must decide whether to accept Him or not. So, by your logic, Allah (swt) does indeed love everyone. If He didn’t, then He wouldn’t care to send prophets and messengers to all people and would just leave them in their sins instead of giving them an opportunity to repent.
You claim that your god loves everyone because, despite the fact we are all sinners, he offers us a chance at salvation. But this opportunity only applies if the sinner acknowledges God and accepts Him. If he does not, then he is doomed to hell forever. Where is the love in this? You cannot possibly love a person and yet threaten them with eternal torture if they don’t love you back. So, your god’s “love” is conditional. If it was unconditional, then everyone would be saved purely out of love, regardless of their wrong-doings.
It is precisely the issue of justice that creates a contradiction. A just God cannot possibly love everyone. How can God love a murderer or a child rapist?
there is another reason why justice proves your theology is false. Your god treats everyone the same. A murderer is the same as a pious man who spends his life praying and serving God, because they are both “sinners” due to the taint of original sin. That is not justice.
I have dealt with the issue of original sin in my latest article. See it here:
https://quranandbibleblog.wordpress.com/2017/07/27/born-a-sinner-a-critical-investigation-of-the-origin-of-original-sin/
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Surah 16:61 seems to indicate original sin – see also here:
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2015/11/13/does-islam-really-teach-that-there-is-no-original-inherited-sin-that-spread-to-all-mankind/
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..
Ken , if jesus loved judas why did he say that it was better he wasn’t even born?
“Matthew 5:44-48”
..
If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?
……
Ken, you are a retard. Ken, pagans used to love other than brothers, was jesas not informed about this? In his hatred of pagans could he not see beyond his hatred? There are many pagans who told to love other than “brothers”
Ken , do you think jezoz was an lover of idolaterers?
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So it would seem calling someone a regard is perfectly acceptable, but pointing this double standard out is unacceptable and whomever deleted the post pointing that out is too cowardly to acknowledge it! Is it a good thing for a Christian or a Muslim to behave in such a fashion?
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This has been archived on The Wayback Machine by the way, so the attitude towards the disabled is preserved for posterity.
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Wow. A load of jibes aimed at me can stay up but my comments get deleted? Gee, I wonder why…
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survival of the fittest?
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I doubt that.
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good ol’ skeptic
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Skepticism is healthy, especially when dealing with religion.
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especially of course. sound like statement of faith
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Except they’re not, they’re descriptive words.
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lol of course, incarnated objectivity
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You seem to harbour a lot of hostility toward atheists. Why?
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they’re descriptive words
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I wonder why you’re avoiding the question…
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freedom of speech
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Which you don’t believe in… ironic no?
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Who told you so? If you were Christian I’d say HS? In your case it’s just BS.
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Well for starters you think religion should be spared insults… which makes your attitude all the more ironic no?
I would like to know WHY religious beliefs should be spared from insults.
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Jesus does not love you
And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. Luke 12:47
UNBELIEVABLE! Jesus commands
The kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. Matthew 18:23-25
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Jesus Does Not Love You If You Don’t Believe
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16
“If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. – John 15.6
Eternal damnation and torture simply because you don’t believe?
Where’s the love in that?
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Ken,
Purify your heart with the word of Allah(sw)
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The form and sound may be soothing to an Arabic speaking Muslim, but unless someone understands the intellectual content of what the speaking is saying, it is not soothing. This video seems to put the external form and sound as more important than intellectual content.
Only truth is soothing to the intellect. That is why we believe in Bible translation into languages that people can understand the intellectual content of the Bible.
I had to search for which Surah this is. it is number 79 – Nazi’at نازعات
I now see that I had read and noted verse 40 before. (non Arabic speakers need the number of the Surah, as it is difficult to know all the Arabic titles of the Surahs, especially lesser known ones.)
except only Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit (which only Christians have) can purify your soul; you are left to your own efforts and righteousness, which is filthy rags in the presence of a holy God.
You need to have Christ’s righteousness credited to your account (by repentance and faith in Christ alone) in order to be purified and righteous to face a holy and just God on judgement day.
Galatians 2:16-21
Matthew chapter 5:1-48
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The reciter is not Arab, btw.
And that was just his beautiful voice Tabark Allah. You should have learnt Arabic instead of Farsi.
Also, I believe that there’s an English subtitle in the video!
You speek about intellectual content!? 🙂 Then stop being a trinitrian christian since your religion has nothing to do with the intellect.
Have you tried to reflect on the great meanings of that surah?
For example verse #40 ? It’s about fearing Allah(sw)
You may recall Isaiah 11:2
Also, verse #43. It’s about the Hour, and the prophet pbuh is like all the prophets of God who have no knowledge about its time.
You may recall Jesus peace be upon him when he said the same thing that he has no knowldge about its time. It’s only Allah( sw) who knows.
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Ken Temple
Totally opposite of Bible:
God loves us first and changes sinners hearts into followers and worshipers so that we can then love Him.
Romans 5:1-11
Romans 6
John 8:31-36
the truth will set you free
I say;
You are totally confused Ken.
-If your god loves us first, why will he not change the hearts of sinners but will put them to hell? Is there not hell for your God to burn sinners? If He loves them, why did he not change their heart?
-So, it is totally lie to claim Jesus loves sinners and everyone while Jesus has hell waiting for sinners who did not love and believed in him. It absolute lies and confusion from Christians and their missionaries to keep telling lies that Jesus loves sinners, Jesus loves everyone. That is not true at all. Stop preaching that otherwise you lied and hell is waiting for you.
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-I corrected you on the “desire” thread where a Muslims says he does not follow his desires. I said your God Jesus Christ was tempted by satan and satan shows your God the world. If satan is not omnipresent how was he able to show your God the world and tempt every human every day?
-Satan tempts Adam and Eve and he continues to tempt us and that is the truth. Adam sin is not passed to us, except who tempted him is still tempting us today. That is why we must follow God’s Allah against the temptations of satan and his lieutenants.
Thanks.
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correction
…that’s why we must follow Allah’s commandment(law) against satanic temptations……
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Satan is a powerful , evil spiritual being, a fallen angel, (Ezekiel 28:13-17 – the spirit behind the king of Tyre, a cherub, a kind of angel in the garden of Eden – verse 13)
But, Satan is not omnipresent nor omniscient. Only God is omnipresent and omniscient.
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Ken Temple
Whether Satan is omnipresent or not, the truth is that he tempted Adam and Eve, Jesus, your God and all prophets. He continues to tempt us(all human beings) today and everyday. That is the truth and it should be “original temptations” not “original sin”.
Ken, stop Christianity and follow Islam. Why?
Because the original sin is wrong. Why. Did Adam and Eve sinned without Satan tempting them? No.
Adam and Eve have to be tempted by Satan before they sinned and the temptation continues today by the same Satan and never stopped.
That is why God sent his prophets including Jesus and Mohammed to remind us to follow God’s commands against Satan’s temptations.
Adam and Eve did not sinned on their own without temptation from Satan, so it is wrong to say we are already sinners by birth. If you say we have choice and freewill to sin or not, then that is correct. But we are not sinners until we commit sin. Satanic temptations facilitate us to sin like how he did to the above prophets and your (God(Jesus) himself).
When a child is born and dies he has no sin. It is unjust for God to punish anyone in the Amazon forest who did not hear about any prophet of God. Quran says, no one will be punished unless God has sent a messenger to warn them. The just God is the God of the Quran and not the Trinitarian God, who will burn babies and Amazonians because they did not know anything about Him.
Jesus does not love everyone, unless you love and believe him. Preaching otherwise is false and must be stopped if one is truthful.
Thanks.
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You still don’t get it. Satan has helpers and they are constantly working to mislead humans from the straight path. Satan doesn’t have to be omnipresent. Your nitpicking is getting tiresome.
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no, you don’t get it, since I already know that there are other demons (Satan’s helpers). Yes, they are working to mislead humans from the straight path; agreed.
Ephesians 6:10-18
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LOL, so then why are you making such a fuss about Satan not being omnipresent? Who said he was?
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Intellect did.
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Intellect did.
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Where?
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“If satan is not omnipresent how was he able to show your God the world and tempt every human every day?”
“Intellect”
https://bloggingtheology.net/2017/07/29/some-christians-are-masochists/#comment-53541
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Brother Faiz, ask Reverend Ken Temple again. Where did I say Satan is omnipresent? I never said so. I was just wondering how Satan was able to show his(our dear Reverend’s God) the world. I never said Satan is omnipresent. Even God does not present in my shit. God is not present in latrine, God is not present inside voodoo idol, that is why God said it is dirty. God said idols are dirty, so God is not present physically everywhere. God is not in an idol. God is not in the cow, monkeys, elephants etc. that Hindus are worshiping, otherwise he will not blame them for worshiping such cows, monkeys, elephants etc.
God is not present in the golden calf the people of Moses worshiped, otherwise God will not blame them for worshiping him in the Golden calf. Some idol worshipers like Farhan Qureish, think God is everywhere physically, so they are justify to worship God through their idols.
God is not physically present everywhere but His knowledge is everywhere. Do you understand, Ken. Muslims must be very careful when Christians start to use omnipresent to confuse them. Tell them God is not physically everywhere otherwise idol worshipers will be justified in worshiping God in their idols.
Thanks.
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Brother Faiz, ask Reverend Ken Temple again. Where did I say Satan is omnipresent? I never said so. I was just wondering how Satan was able to show his(our dear Reverend’s God) the world. I never said Satan is omnipresent. Even God does not present in my shit. God is not present in latrine, God is not present inside voodoo idol, that is why God said it is dirty. God said idols are dirty, so God is not present physically everywhere. God is not in an idol. God is not in the cow, monkeys, elephants etc. that Hindus are worshiping, otherwise he will not blame them for worshiping such cows, monkeys, elephants etc.
God is not present in the golden calf the people of Moses worshiped, otherwise God will not blame them for worshiping him in the Golden calf. Some idol worshipers like Farhan Qureish, think God is everywhere physically, so they are justify to worship God through their idols.
God is not physically present everywhere but His knowledge is everywhere. Do you understand, Ken. Muslims must be very careful when Christians start to use omnipresent to confuse them. Tell them God is not physically everywhere otherwise idol worshipers will be justified in worshiping God in their idols.
Is God in hell? No. So God is not physically everywhere.
Thanks.
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Yes brother, Ken is just making things up again.
Ken, brother Intellect made a good point. Looking at your Bible, it seems to suggest that Satan has the power to see all the kingdoms of the Earth at the same time. That sounds like omnipresence.
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I agree with Darthtimon that freedom of speech should be allowed, and the Muslims who call me “retard” and other names and curse and use filthy language – you guys (especially “mr.healthcliff, who uses dirty language – don’t you guys have commands in the Qur’an and Sunnah to tell you to not use dirty language?) disqualify yourself and your religion and you disobey Surah 29:46.
Darthtimon –
I have a sincere question for you.
Have you seen the reports that Google and Facebook is going to censor (and already has with some) speech, for example, a professor who, in his opinion, calls males men and uses “he” and females women/ladies/girls and uses “she”; and he refused to use “gender neutral pronouns”, etc. – he was censored.
Isn’t that wrong?
http://dailycaller.com/2017/08/01/google-and-youtube-ban-prof-who-refused-to-use-gender-neutral-pronouns/
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Ken,
The article in question doesn’t actually state the reason for his Google ban – but what are his motivations for his treatment of transgender individuals? A lot of people rally against political correctness not because of altruistic motives but because they don’t like the group they are talking about.
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Do the transgenders have the right to shut us down only because we don’t agree with their trying to force the rest of us to agree with their confusion over pronouns?
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Referring to someone as ‘they’ is not an uncommon way of referring to anyone, male or female, and I suspect from what I’ve been reading of that professor that his motives are not grounded in being fair or kind. He knows he’ll get a reaction and he pushes for it.
Whereas, when there are broad, sweeping measures designed to hold back the rights of transgenders (like Trump’s ban on transgenders serving in the military), it is supposedly justified?
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what about “ze” ?
the ban on transgenders in the military is right and sane. Transgender people have emotional and mental problems and rebellion against the way God made them. Those that struggle with “gender dysphoria” need counseling, not special rights to force against logic, science, and the meaning of language.
Women should not be in combat either. We should protect women, not let them be soldiers.
they can serve in non-combat roles, no problem, etc.
The video that Paul Williams put up with Ben Shapiro was good; Shapiro is right.
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The Professor isn’t acting out of kindness or motivated by the well-being of his students. That was made clear by his statements in the article you linked to and other subsequent articles I found. His motive appears to be one of ‘poking the bear’, so to speak.
The trans ban is clearly wrong. Transgender individuals already serve in the US military and have seen combat. Some of them have been decorated for their performances. Allowing them (and women for that matter, who are tougher than you think) to serve is not granting special rights but instead practising equality.
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“Surah 16:61 seems to indicate original sin – see also here:
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2015/11/13/does-islam-really-teach-that-there-is-no-original-inherited-sin-that-spread-to-all-mankind/”
Uh, no. Read it in context. Your laughable eisegesis will not sway anyone.
The verse is referring to those people who reject God’s message. Even if it was referring to all people, it is would only be referring to people’s own sins, not to some “original sin”. There is no reference to any such concept in the Quran.
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No; it says “no human being will be left on the earth, If Allah was to punish/ blame everyone for their sins”
Surah 16:61
No human creature left on earth . . .
seems to indicate original sin
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No Sir, my dear reverend. It means, humans are not perfect. It does not mean original sin. As I said earlier, Ken. Adam and Eve did not sin on their own until tempted by Satan and Satan continues to tempt us to the extent of tempting prophets and your God.
It must be “original temptation by Satan” not “original sin”. Adams and Eve were clean, until tempted by Satan and they use their freewill and choice to sin. They are not born sinners but they are humans and therefore not perfect.
God knows that and that is how He created us and so He forgives sins free of charge, without any blood.
Thanks.
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No Sir, my dear reverend. It means, humans are not perfect. It does not mean original sin. As I said earlier, Ken. Adam and Eve did not sin on their own until tempted by Satan and Satan continues to tempt us to the extent of tempting prophets and your God.
It must be “original temptation by Satan” not “original sin”. Adams and Eve were clean, until tempted by Satan and they use their freewill and choice to sin. They are not born sinners but they are humans and therefore not perfect.
God knows that and that is how He created us and so He forgives sins free of charge, without any blood.
Thanks.
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When Satan tempts someone to sin and that person sins. Whose fault is it? God? No. It is the fault of Satan and the person who sinned. Not his son, not his sibling and not anyone. He is responsible for his sins and not God.
So, it will be unfair for God to kill Himself to pay a Christians who raped someone and put that Christian’s victim to hell. That is what Christianity means. Believe Jesus died for your sins by faith alone and you are saved. You rape someone as a Christian, you go free, and your victim who is not a Christian will be punished in hell. What justice is this?
Bob Marley- “Is this love?”
Thanks.
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“no human being will be left on the earth, If Allah was to punish/ blame everyone for their sins”
Surah 16:61
No human creature left on earth . . .
seems to indicate original sin””””””””
/////////////////////
no creature would indicate children, animals and ANYTHING moving .
ants everything. sinless creatures. where is original sin?
not ALL CREATURES are sinners, not ALL MOVING items are sinners.
and it is all HYPOTHETICAL. the quran is saying as a hypothetical not as a REALITY . You are again a liar for jesus. you are making HYPOTHETICAL which is HIGHLY UNLIKELY to take place into “original sin”
you are a idiot and a loon.
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robster2016
Please narrow your insults. You can insult the theology but not the person. Thanks.
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“Allah in Islam does the same thing on judgement day – he sends people (unbelievers) to the hell-fire forever.
We both believe in judgement day and eternal hell; so I don’t know why you are nitpicking on that.”
LOL, still not getting it? You’re the one who claims that God “loves” everyone. I don’t claim that Allah (swt) loves everyone. Therefore, I can “nitpick” all I want because your theology is nonsensical. It makes no sense to say that you “love” someone and then torture them with unending pain for eternity.
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A Muslim admitted to me that one who dies for his enemies has greater love.
http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2010/08/muslim-admits-that-one-who-dies-for-his.html
////////////
they tell us that the wise man will for reasonable cause make his own exit from life, on his country’s behalf or for the sake of his FRIENDS, or if he suffer intolerable pain, mutilation , or incurable disease
diogenes laertius , zeno 7.139
so the muslim was in love with self violence ?
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وَلَوْ يُؤَاخِذُ اللَّهُ النَّاسَ بِظُلْمِهِم مَّا تَرَكَ عَلَيْهَا مِن دَابَّةٍ وَلَٰكِن يُؤَخِّرُهُمْ إِلَىٰ أَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى ۖ فَإِذَا جَاءَ أَجَلُهُمْ لَا يَسْتَأْخِرُونَ سَاعَةً ۖ وَلَا يَسْتَقْدِمُونَ – Surah 16:61
context shows it is talking about human beings – الناس = human beings, from Insan انسان = human
And if Allah were to impose blame on the people (human beings) for their wrongdoing, He would not have left upon the earth any creature,
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define original sin :
Original sin is an Augustine Christian doctrine that says that everyone is born sinful. This means that they are born with a built-in urge to do bad things and to disobey God. It is an important doctrine within the Roman Catholic Church.17 Sep 2009
“he would not have left upon the earth any moving creature”
ARE ALL MOVING CREATURES BORN SINFUL?
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And if Allah were to impose blame on the people (human beings) for their wrongdoing
Whose doing? the people? or the wrong doing of Adam and Eve?
Do you understand “their”? human beings and their wrong doings. Not the wrong doings of Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve were forgiven and will go to heaven. Do you think they will be in hell? No. They will be in heaven. How can they be in heaven and some go to hell for their sins but not his own sins?
Thanks.
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i just want to know that how does doing a sin imply ALL moving creatures are born sinful .where did you make that link?
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Uh no. The context is talking about those who reject God’s message.
Like I said, even if it was talking about all people. there is nothing about original sin. It is talking about the specific sins of each person. That has nothing to do with original sin.
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where does it say it only about those who reject God’s message?
Surah 16:61 speaks of the sins of humans, and if Allah were to judge, then ALL creatures on earth would be destroyed – seems to be talking about all humans.
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Ken Temple
Shaitan is the source of all evil
Everything that happens among the sons of Adam of kufr (disbelief of the Truth), murder, enmity, hatred, the spread of immorality and fornication, the public wanton display of women’s beauty, drinking alcohol, worshiping idols and other major sins, is all the work of Satan to corrupt mankind and to drive people from following the way of Allah and drag them to the Fire of Hell with him. So, let’s remember that when we find ourselves around evil or being lured by it, Satan is engaged in his work and our task is to fend off his plans.
Allah says in the Quran: “And if an evil whisper from Shaitan (waswasa) tries to turn you away (O Muhammad) (from doing good), then seek refuge in Allah. Verily, He is the All Hearer, the All Knower” (Quran, Surah Fussilat: 36).
Thanks.
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For once I don’t think we disagree on that. we both believe in Satan / the devil, and that he is the one who tempted humans and got them to sin the garden (Genesis 3) and they fell away from God. هبوط / حبوط
And Satan and demons are still in the world tempting people.
But also, we disagree here – since the fall in Genesis 3 caused all humans to have a sinful nature – the sinful nature ( نفس اماره و هوی )inside of us is what pulls us to sin now most of the time.
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There is no sinful nature. Genesis does not say anything about that. It’s your own eisegesis.
In fact, Genesis doesn’t even mention Satan. It mentions the serpent. Christians have to assume that they are one and the same, but the text does not allow for such a link.
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The Jews (and Christians) knew the serpent is Satan (the spirit behind the king of Tyre is described as Satan, the fallen angel in the garden of Eden. Ezekiel 28:13-18 – “you were in the garden of God . . . you were the anointed cherub . . . (a “cherub” is a kind of angel – before he sinned and became Satan, he was an angel)
Job chapters 1-2
2 Corinthians 11:3
Revelation 12:9
Revelation 20:2
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Oh Lord, Ken is being willfully dense again. Do you know what reading in context means?
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“no creature left on earth” implies that all humans are sinners, even babies – since all creatures would be destroyed.
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“where does it say it only about those who reject God’s message?”
well tell me where does the quran talk about believers /righteous/ prophets in words such as “when their term (punishment) has come, they will not remain behind an hour….” ?
quote
Sahih International: And if Allah were to impose blame on the people for their wrongdoing, He would not have left upon the earth any creature, but He defers them for a specified term. And when their term has come, they will not remain behind an hour, nor will they precede [it].
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“nside of us is what pulls us to sin now most of the time.”
in other words you god made easily corrupted item and this easily corrupted item is by nature made corrupt. why did your god kill himself for making corrupted human?
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Ken Temple
You said;
But also, we disagree here – since the fall in Genesis 3 caused all humans to have a sinful nature – the sinful nature ( نفس اماره و هوی )inside of us is what pulls us to sin now most of the time.
I say;
How about righteousness nature? Adam and Eve did not sin on their own accord, until tempted by Satan for them to sin. So, what causes the sinful nature nature to sin? Satan not the fall. Adam and Eve sinned in heaven or wherever they are before falling. They have righteousness nature too. Is that righteousness nature the result of the falling? No.
Human can decide to do good(righteousness) or bad(sinfulness). So, it is the temptation of Satan that pulls us to sin, and not our nature. We have righteous nature too. Following God’s commands will lead us to righteousness against Satan’s temptations to sinfulness. The fall does not count here. Follow God and the truth and be righteous or follow Satan and lies and be sinful. Don’t depend on sinful nature or the fall, they will not help you. Depend on God and obey His command and follow the truth, then you will be free from sinful nature and Satan.
Thanks.
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///////////////////////////////////
“no creature left on earth” implies that all humans are sinners, even babies – since all creatures would be destroyed./////////////////////////
quote :
Yusuf Ali: If Allah were to punish men for their wrong-doing, He would not leave, on the (earth), a single living creature:
all it says is that the earth would be cleared from ANY living creature. you are ASSUMING that “leaving” IMPLIES destroying every single living creation including babies, children, animals etc. but is that what the verse is really saying ? the people who are punished are the wrong doers, there is not even one hint in this verse that children do wrong. you are reading your criminal mind into the text.
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“Yusuf Ali: If Allah were to punish men for their wrong-doing, He would not leave, on the (earth), a single living creature:”
i wonder if there are OTHER ways to read this verse instead of your christian way.
If ALLAH punishes WRONGDOERS, He would CLEAR the earth from ANY LIVING CREATURE.
BUT you WANT TO lump ALL living creature UNDER “wrongdoer” even though verse explicitly says “He would NOT leave….”
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LOL, so you don’t know what reading in context means. Got it. That’s all you had to say, Ken. There is no shame in not being able to read.
Here is what I mean by reading in context:
“To those who believe not in the Hereafter, applies the similitude of evil: to Allah applies the highest similitude: for He is the Exalted in Power, full of Wisdom.
If Allah were to punish men for their wrong-doing, He would not leave, on the (earth), a single living creature: but He gives them respite for a stated Term: When their Term expires, they would not be able to delay (the punishment) for a single hour, just as they would not be able to anticipate it (for a single hour).
They attribute to Allah what they hate (for themselves), and their tongues assert the falsehood that all good things are for themselves: without doubt for them is the Fire, and they will be the first to be hastened on into it!”
Who is “they”? If read contextually, we can see that it seems to refer to the “people” in verse 61. Thus, it is referring to those who reject God’s message.
Those with knowledge can see that the Quran never upholds the idiotic idea of original sin, as the following verses show:
4:112 – But if any one earns a fault or a sin and throws it on to one that is innocent, He carries (on himself) (Both) a falsehood and a flagrant sin.
4:17-18 – Allah accepts the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and repent soon afterwards; to them will Allah turn in mercy: For Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom. Of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil, until death faces one of them, and he says, “Now have I repented indeed;” nor of those who die rejecting Faith: for them have We prepared a punishment most grievous.
35:18 – Nor can a bearer of burdens bear another’s burdens if one heavily laden should call another to (bear) his load. Not the least portion of it can be carried (by the other). Even though he be nearly related. Thou canst but admonish such as fear their Lord unseen and establish regular Prayer. And whoever purifies himself does so for the benefit of his own soul; and the destination (of all) is to Allah.
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“The Jews (and Christians) knew the serpent is Satan (the spirit behind the king of Tyre is described as Satan, the fallen angel in the garden of Eden. Ezekiel 28:13-18 – “you were in the garden of God . . . you were the anointed cherub . . . (a “cherub” is a kind of angel – before he sinned and became Satan, he was an angel)
Job chapters 1-2
2 Corinthians 11:3
Revelation 12:9
Revelation 20:2”
Uh, no. The author(s) of Genesis did not seem to be familiar with Satan. In fact, the serpent is specifically referred to as a “wild animal”, not as a fallen angel:
“Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made.”
And even God refers to the serpent as an animal, not as an angel or a cherub:
““Cursed are you above all livestock and all wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life.”
Since when does Satan crawl on his belly and eat dust?
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Jewish interpreters – some take it literally, some as metaphor for evil inclinations (interesting !), some see it as Satan coming in the form of a serpent/dragon-lizard. In Christian literature, Satan is also called a dragon, so “serpent” could mean a kind of reptile with legs like a dragon-lizard, and then when God cursed it, the legs were gone. Revelation 12:9
“And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.”
See the different Jewish interpretations here:
https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/9243/do-religious-jews-generally-believe-the-serpent-of-garden-of-eden-was-satan
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Lol, so now you are interested in the different interpretations? You really are a dishonest, inconsistent missionary.
What does the text say? Why does God refer to the serpent as a wild animal? If it was Satan I’m disguise, did he fool God into thinking he was just an animal? Give it up Ken. Learn to admit when you are wrong about something.
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why do you say “dishonest, inconsistent” ?
I saw this after I wrote you a positive note. Wow. Sometimes you are not fair in your judgments.
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As a Christian, we go by the NT interpretation of Genesis 3 on the serpent, which is in:
2 Cor. 11:3
Revelation 12:9
Revelation 20:2
I don’t know where you got the idea that I don’t acknowledge the existence of a variety of interpretations of Scripture. They exist.
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Another point you left out is that 2 Samuel 22 is about David’s victories over his enemies and Saul, (Saul dies at the end of 1 Samuel and beginning 2 Sam. chapter 1) – so this Psalm (it is also Psalm 18) was composed before his sin with Bathsheba in 2 Samuel 11; and compare with 1 Kings 15:5).
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” . . . each individual is responsible for his/her own sins.”
Christianity and the Bible does not deny that. God holds us all responsible for our own sins, even though we inherited that corrupt nature (and the legal guilt) from Adam down to our parents. Since we will sin – by the first selfish act of 2 or 3 years of age, we are responsible for our own sins.
There is also the understanding of the age of accountability and the idea of elect infants – but no one knows who – but God knows, and we have to trust God and leave that knowledge and mystery to Him. As you Muslims say, “Allah knows best”. We agree with you on that principle, when Scripture does not tell us enough information.
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another problem with your article is that sometimes “righteous” just means that they are God-fearing believers, as in the case of Zechariah and Elizabeth and Job, Noah, and Daniel.
If you read the book of Job, it calls him a righteous man, God-fearing, and without blame, but that does not mean sinless, as the rest of the book of Job shows.
Another thing you left out is Jesus taught original sin in:
Matthew 7:11
If you being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children . . .
and
Mark 7:20-23
evil thoughts come from within, from the heart of man
Jeremiah 17:9
and
Genesis 6:5 (with 8:21)
also teach original sin by a corrupt selfish nature.
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Faiz,
I am reading your article on “original sin” and I want to commend you on the facts that it is well written, good foot- notes, wide range of research, and the layout of it is very pleasing to the eyes. I commend you on including some good links to some good articles from Reformed-Protestant, Roman Catholic, early church fathers, and Jewish sources.
While I disagree with your conclusions; and you left out some important information; over all, it is a positive step in dialogue / discussion / debate that you as a Muslim has with the Christian doctrine of “original sin”.
I have not digested it fully yet, but I wanted to start with a positive word on that article and I am enjoying reading it and looking up what you have referenced.
Several things off the top of my head.
1. You referenced a very good article from Desiring God on original sin. One of the key verses you left out was Ephesians 2:1-3 – especially verse 3 that says we are “by nature, children of wrath”. This points to the change in nature of Adam and Eve from innocence to a nature of selfishness and corruption.
2. The hyssop was the brush for applying the blood of the sacrificial animal, so Psalm 51:7 refers to the application of the blood of the sacrificial animal, as in Exodus 12:22 – applying the blood of the passover lamb on the sides and top of the doorpost in order to avert the wrath of God against sin. David, in Psalm 51, was affirming that he needed the sacrificial sacrifice of the substitutionary sinless animal to be slaughtered; along with repentance and a broken heart over sin. Verses 16-19 show the important of heart-felt repentance, that without that, the sacrifices don’t mean anything without true internal repentance – they are just empty rituals.
3. The Hebrew word Na’ar נער has a range of meaning – it can refer to a new born infant – 2 Samuel 12:16 (Bathsheba’s new born baby) and Moses as a baby – Exodus 2:6. So Genesis 8:21 also includes babies and infants as sinners and selfish. That is why we have to teach children of 3 and upward right from wrong.
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ken ,
“Our Lord, do not IMPOSE BLAME upon us if we have forgotten or erred. Our Lord, and lay not upon us a burden like that which You laid upon those before us. Our Lord, and burden us not with that which we have no ability to bear. And pardon us; and forgive us; and have mercy upon us. You are our protector, so give us victory over the disbelieving people.”
can you tell me the arabic words for the capitalized ken?
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“why do you say “dishonest, inconsistent” ?
I saw this after I wrote you a positive note. Wow. Sometimes you are not fair in your judgments.
As a Christian, we go by the NT interpretation of Genesis 3 on the serpent, which is in:
2 Cor. 11:3
Revelation 12:9
Revelation 20:2
I don’t know where you got the idea that I don’t acknowledge the existence of a variety of interpretations of Scripture. They exist.”
When Muslims show you the Jewish interpretations of Isaiah 53 or some other passage in the Bible, you usually reject them outright. But here, you are appealing to the various opinions when it suits your purpose. That is why you are dishonest and inconsistent.
Now, it is widely acknowledged by scholars that Judaism had a gradual development of the concept of Satan. In fact, most modern Jews deny that Satan is an evil being. Rather, they say that he is just an agent of God who is sent to test humans. “Ha-Satan” literally means “The Adversary”, so he is understood not as the devil but the agent of God.
This gradual development can be seen in the Tanakh. Genesis says nothing about Satan. The serpent is a wild animal that can talk. That is it. Even God is said to refer to it as an animal and not as an angel. In fact, if it was an angel or cherub, there is no reason to refer to it as an animal. Cherubs are mentioned later in Genesis after Adam and Eve were expelled and God wanted to guard the Garden of Eden from trespassers.
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That is not dishonest or inconsistent. It is a matter of acknowledging that some Jewish interpreters DO and DID see the serpent as Satan in the form of a serpent, which is consistent with the Christian view.
Of course I reject the modern Jewish interpetation of Isaiah 53; but the first Christians were ALL ( or 95 %) were Jews in the first century. (Peter, John, James, Saul of Tarsus, Barnabas, Philip, Stephen, James half-brother of Jesus, Jude, Mary and the women at the cross and in Acts early chapters, etc.
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It is you who seems dishonest and inconsistent when you seem to ignore and constantly skip over the first century Jewish Christians’ interpretations. for example on Isaiah 53 – Matthew, John, Paul, Peter, Mark, are all consistent on that interpretation.
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LOL, the problem is that you don’t know that these “1st century Jews” wrote the books that bear their names. You are just appealing to circular arguments. The 1st-century Jews still believed that the law was to be followed. But then you guys say they were wrong. You pick and choose which facts you want to believe. That is why you are dishonest and inconsistent.
The fact remains that the text of Genesis does NOT refer to Satan. No where is the word “Ha-Satan” used. You still have not explained why the text refers to the serpent as an animal instead of as an angel. Appealing to the various interpretations doesn’t answer the question. In Job, Satan is referred to as one of the “sons of God” or Bene Ha-Elohim (i.e. an angel). Hence, he is clearly shown as an agent of God and not as the devil. This shows the gradual development of the concept of Satan in Jewish sources. It also shows that the books are not “inspired” but are the works of anonymous authors who were telling stories and myths rather than the word of God.
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“It is you who seems dishonest and inconsistent when you seem to ignore and constantly skip over the first century Jewish Christians’ interpretations. for example on Isaiah 53 – Matthew, John, Paul, Peter, Mark, are all consistent on that interpretation.”
you left out luke because you know that luke is not agreeing with pauls version which sees jesus as a sacrificed animal. luke goes back to isaiah 53 and does not link jesus to passage which might be interpreted as ritual acts done in the temple.
paul also knows christians who preach a different christ .
there is clearly difference between “suffering person”
and “atoning person”
and we know luke does not see an ATONING person but a praying person.
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think about this. you are in first century and you as a christian inform a jew that isaiah 53 predicted atoning for sins messiah and at the same time the jew is under occupation and see you celebrate the resurrection of jesus. wouldn’t the jew laugh himself silly?
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Luke was a Greek, a Gentile, not a Jew. that’s why I didn’t mention him. But Luke certain agrees with Paul’s theology and the other NT writers.
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“No; it says “no human being will be left on the earth, If Allah was to punish/ blame everyone for their sins”
Which seems to agree with the bible which states that there is no sinless human being except for Jesus.
Which implies that the Islamic prophets are not humans but some kind of hybrid between man and God, if they were sinless.
Which also explains why the Muslims didn’t bury Mohammed after he died but let him stink for a while.
Which just means there must be some determinant cause for this state of affairs which the bible clearly explains in the form of the fall of Adam and the consequent corruption of human nature, and the Quran does not.
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Lol, there goes the Christian logic machine, making up all sorts of ludicrous assumptions and non-sequiturs.
Hey ignoramus, I’m still waiting for you to take a crack at refuting my article on original sin. 😉
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Erasmus
You forgot “Original Temptations” by Satan to Adam and Eve that caused them to sin and hammering on sin alone that did not come without temptation.
Adam and Eve did not commit sin until they were tempted by Satan to cause them to use their freewill and choice to sin. This Satan continues to tempt us till today and he tempted all prophets including your God Jesus and he showed him(your God Jesus) the world.
If racism and insult and property damage and disorderly conduct is a sin, then Jesus sinned according to the Bible. He would have been arrested today and put to jail by his action.
The temptation should also be a concern to you because that will cause you to sin. Original Sin by Adam and Eve will not cause you to sin but Satanic temptations, so beware of satanic temptations instead of original sin which is somebody’s sin and has nothing to do with you. It is the temptations that you have to worry about.
Quran about the temptation of Satan.
“Then the Shaitan (Satan) made them slip there from (the Paradise), and got them out from that in which they were. We said: “Get you down, all, with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be a dwelling place for you and an enjoyment for a time” (Quran, Surah Al-Baqarah: 36).
“O Children of Adam! Let not Shaitan (Satan) deceive you, as he got your parents (Adam and Hawwa’ (Eve)) out of Paradise,” (Quran, Surah Al-Aaraf: 27).
“. . . and follow not the footsteps of ‘Shaitan’ (Satan). Surely he is to you an open enemy” (Quran, Surah Al-Anaam: 142).
So, Allah has made it clear to mankind that Satan is their enemy and Satan’s goal is to divert mankind from the goal that Allah established for them, which is to follow and worship Allah by obeying His commands. Satan’s goal is to make mankind disobey Allah and divert them to the hell fire in the hereafter, which will also be Satan’s abode. Allah says in the Quran:
“Surely, Shaitan (Satan) is an enemy to you, so take (treat) him as an enemy. He only invites his Hizb (followers) that they may become the dwellers of the blazing Fire” (Surah Faatir 35:6).
Thanks.
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“Which seems to agree with the bible which states that there is no sinless human being except for Jesus.”
wrong, jesus had to burn an olah offer for just begging god to save him from the cross.
jesus made a prayer 3 times and making such a prayer would be wrong because it is a PRAYER AGAINST WHAT GOD WANTED, so jesus neededto make an olah offering which indicates he was sinful in thought and action.
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“Which seems to agree with the bible which states that there is no sinless human being except for Jesus.”
you see man worshiper, when we tell christians that “not all jews” washed their hands before meals, christians say “all ” does not mean “all”
so lets try to understand that verse in quranic context.
52. This attitude of contempt towards daughters has been mentioned to bring home to them the height of their folly, ignorance and impudence in regard to God. This is why they did not hesitate to assign daughters to Allah, though they themselves felt that to have daughters was a matter of disgrace for them. Besides this, it shows that they had a very low estimation of Allah, which had resulted from their ways of shirk. So they felt nothing wrong in ascribing such foolish and absurd things to Allah Who is above such things.
currently, according to the quran, the heavens are begging God to burst open SO God bring punishment on polytheists who worship idols , trinity and human beings, but God says He is merciful:
Those who have said that the Messiah, son of Mary, is God, have, in fact, committed themselves to disbelief. (Muhammad), ask them, “Who can prevent God from destroying the Messiah, his mother and all that is in the earth?” To God belongs all that is in the heavens, the earth, and all that is between them. God creates whatever He wants and He has power over all things.
This would imply everything is taken out. even sinless things. the ayah you think refers to original sin is really talking about major crimes like worshiping other than God.
so “men” cannot mean ALL men, but simply polytheists like you.
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” “no human being will be left on the earth, If Allah was to punish/ blame everyone for their sins”
So if all are sinners freewill does not exist, otherwise it would be possible for someone to freely choose never to sin. Allah denies that this person will ever exist.
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Erasmus
You forgot in your theology, no human is perfect? We believe that too. Allah is saying here in the verse that, no human is perfect. it is only God who is perfect. Do you get it now?
Thanks.
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Intellect:
“Allah is saying here in the verse that, no human is perfect. it is only God who is perfect. Do you get it now?”
Just to clarify, no human, including all your prophets, was perfect?
Muslims don’t seem to have the same beliefs on this.
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No one is perfect, except God alone. Don’t you believe that? Jesus was not perfect because he insulted people, destroyed property and cast racist slur on a woman.
Thanks.
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jesus even admits to being a sinner
If you know these things, you are blessed if you do them. 18 I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But it is to fulfill the scripture, ‘The one who ate my bread[e] has lifted his heel against me.’
jesus think the “me” is him
now go and read psalm 41. 1-13
jesus admits to being a sinner.
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The prophets could make mistakes, just like any man could. The difference is that they could never deliberately disobey God. Of course, you would have known that if you weren’t an Ignoramus. 🙂
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Ken said:
“Another point you left out is that 2 Samuel 22 is about David’s victories over his enemies and Saul, (Saul dies at the end of 1 Samuel and beginning 2 Sam. chapter 1) – so this Psalm (it is also Psalm 18) was composed before his sin with Bathsheba in 2 Samuel 11; and compare with 1 Kings 15:5).”
That is irrelevant because David specifically says that he was blameless. That implies that he was not sinful from birth, as Christians claim when they misuse Psalm 51:5. That is the point.
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“That implies that he was not sinful from birth”- Porky
“Surely I was sinfull at birth”- David
LOL…those scraps clearly aren’t doing you any favours…
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Lol, Cerberus opens his mouth to bark and makes an even bigger fool of himself! Where ya been boy? Too busy chasing your own tail or licking your you know what?
Educate yourself by reading my article you moron so you dont keep making a fool of yourself. I discused Psalm 51. Now be a good boy and let the humans talk. 🙂
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Ken, finish reading my article on original sin first and then comment. You are all over the place and many of the points you raise are actually dealt with in the article.
Once you have read it, I will respond to your points inshaAllah.
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“another problem with your article is that sometimes “righteous” just means that they are God-fearing believers, as in the case of Zechariah and Elizabeth and Job, Noah, and Daniel.”
notice how you easily said “just means…”
i quote :
A tzadik is someone who ACTS according to God’s LAWS – he/she lives a life of TZEDEK (justice – the state of being law abiding) and DOING TZEDAKAH (justice-love) to his fellow humans. A rasha (a wicked person) is someone who does not live according to God’s Laws, he does not fulfill his duties of tzedakah (justice-love) to his fellow humans.
So Adam and Eve came into the world innocent and pure from all sin, but they were not yet tzaddikim until God taught them His laws. Once they were aware of God’s laws, they could then choose whether to DO His laws or whether to NOT DO them. When they chose to do God’s laws they were tzadikim. But they were not created tzadikim.
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they were not only “god fearing”
they KEPT HONEST TO THE COMMANDS of god. they did the commands of god. no jesus needed. your own bible tells you jesus is not required for salvation.
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“The prophets could make mistakes, just like any man could. The difference is that they could never deliberately disobey God. Of course, you would have known that if you weren’t an Ignoramus. ”
A mistake is still a sin in the bible. A sin of negligence.
“1And if a soul sin, and hear the voice of swearing, and is a witness, whether he hath seen or known of it; if he do not utter it, then he shall bear his iniquity. 2Or if a soul touch any unclean thing, whether it be a carcase of an unclean beast, or a carcase of unclean cattle, or the carcase of unclean creeping things, and if it be hidden from him; he also shall be unclean, and guilty.
Does Allah lower the bar for Muslims?
Perhaps I’m committing shirk by mistake. I’m sure I can count on Allah’s mercy.
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” 2 Or when any of you touch any unclean thing—whether the carcass of an unclean beast or the carcass of unclean livestock or the carcass of an unclean swarming thing—and are unaware of it, you have become unclean, and are guilty. 3 Or when you touch human uncleanness—any uncleanness by which one can become unclean—and are unaware of it, when you come to know it, you shall be guilty. 4 Or when any of you utter aloud a rash oath for a bad or a good purpose, whatever people utter in an oath, and are unaware of it, when you come to know it, you shall in any of these be guilty. ”
interesting, you seem to have shot your god roughly. when jesus touched the dead girls hand he deliberately trashed the torah. if he was REALLY torah observant, he would not have gone near the dead girls dead body, but stayed outside and done the cure through words, like he did with the gentiles daughter. distant miracle. yes, jesus broke torah law all the time.
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Oh poor Ignoramus, you are not committing shirk by mistake. You are committing it on purpose. You know that you worship a man, but you makes excuses for it, just like any pagan would. If you die in that state, then there is no mercy for you. There is only hell.
However, if you repent now and amend your life, you can count on Allah’s mercy.
The point is that Allah (swt) does not automatically condemn us for making mistakes. He is not like your bloodthirsty god. Allah (swt) loves to forgive those who sincerely repent and try to change their ways. He only does not forgive those who persist in sin as a deliberate act of rebellion against Him.
“Allah accepts the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and repent soon afterwards; to them will Allah turn in mercy: For Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom. Of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil, until death faces one of them, and he says, “Now have I repented indeed;” nor of those who die rejecting Faith: for them have We prepared a punishment most grievous.”
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Anyone who has contact with a corpse of any human being will be impure for seven days.
Anyone who has touched the corpse of any human being who had died and does not purify himself has defiled Yahweh’s Tabernacle, and that person will be cut off from Israel
“The dead was seen as impure and any contact with it resulted in that individual contracting a highly contagious impurity. Such ideas are similar to how we view highly contagious diseases! Again, these were the beliefs of ancient peoples, cultures, and their gods—Yahweh included!”
what did you say? negligence of the yhwhs laws and rituals?
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