brother faiz, one thing is for sure and that is that christian women must come to jesus not as human beings but dogs/animals/small dogs. christian women have to come like begging dogs and ADMIT they have no SEAT next to the children. this is what impressed jesus , but nowadays bro, they break what jesus set in stone for them.
women have to be animal like
they have to admit that the children have gods priority more than animals
here is the confusion bro. big confusion . mighty confusion.
the woman had to beg for crumbs but a roman centurion gets an instant visit. gender inequality?
Islamic prayer rituals derive from paganism – the quran gives no instructions whatsoever on how to pray or do ablution. That comes from the pagansim of 7th century arabia and exposes mohammed as a charlatan.
LOL, of course the pagan Trey has no evidence brother Paul. His lying spirit told him so he believes it. Evidence is not needed, only a non-sequitur.
The irony is that Trey’s religion is full of myths borrowed from paganism. One of the clearest examples is the description of God as an old man, as described in Daniel 7:
“As I looked, โthrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool.”
In his โvisionโ, Daniel saw the โAncient of Daysโ and provided a vivid description of this being (who was obviously โGodโ), including clothing that โwas white as snowโ, and hair that โwas white as woolโ. But as historians have recognized, this description of a white-haired God seems to be influenced by pagan mythology. According to Hammer:
โ[t]he imagery probably comes from Canaanite mythology, in which El was regarded as an aged deity with grey hair.โ[168]
Moreover, the imagery of a โson of manโ approaching the โAncient of Daysโ shares similarities with Canaanite myth. According to Hammer:
โ[i]n Ugaritic texts Baal, the younger god, is described as the one who slew the dragon Itu and so gained victory over the sea, thus establishing his kingship. (In verses 13-14 the second figure is seen as the recipient of authority at the hand of the โancient in yearsโ and this may reflect the ancient mythology preserved in the enthronement festival of New Year rites.โ[169]
More examples of borrowed pagan myths can be seen in the legends regarding Leviathan, the sea-serpent.
“There are striking parallels between the Ugarit text and certain biblical verses. In the Book of Isaiah, for instance, the prophet says: โIn that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the seaโ (Isaiah 27:1). That is nearly verbatim to what an anonymous Canaanite bard has to say about Baal: โWhen you killed Litan, the fleeing serpent, annihilated the twisty serpent, the potentate with seven heads.” (http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/features/.premium-1.678408)
Yet another example of borrowing can be seen in the Genesis story of the serpent. This myth seems to be borrowed from the Epic of Gilgamesh:
Even the early church fathers recognized the similarities between Christianity and pagan cults like Mithraism and to explain these similarities, they concocted the absurd excuse that Satan had preempted Christianity by creating the pagan religions in order to deceive people into believing that Christianity had been borrowed from paganism:
“For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.” (First Apology, Chapter 66).
So, Trey should spend more time worrying about the clear examples of paganism in his religion rather than wasting time with unproven polemics against Islam.
Islฤm is the religion of fitrah. Outward expressions of deep reverence and adoration, such as prostration and bowing, are instinctive and originate in the human being’s innate nature. Your claim is nothing more than a fantasy on the same level as your suicidal demigod.
“any historical evidence for your ridiculous claims?”
Impossible to produce evidence that the quran does not provide – perhaps you could show us where the quran tells muslims to pray 5 times, where it commands muslims to perform salat positions, where it describes ablution rituals?
These rituals are pagan and are not commanded in the quran – mohammed was a charlatan who stole pagan rituals.
Faiz
“The irony is that Treyโs religion is full of myths borrowed from paganism.”
LOL. The same goes for you – show me where your commands muslims to perform pagan rituals……
Trey, your moronic posts are riddled with circular arguments and no proof. How do you know the Islamic prayer is borrowed from “pagan rituals”? Provide proof, not your lying spirit’s “inspiration”. ๐
As I showed above, your religion is riddled with pagan mythology. You can keep your talking snake, and we will keep our authentic religion, thank you very much!
Why do these people fear Islam that they go to any length to ridicule it without any evidence even to the the extend to lie about being a Muslim and how they found it to be x, y and z and yet when you ask them a basic Islamic thing which a 5 year old Muslim would know these bigots have no reply. We Muslim do not do that you will not find a Muslim troll in any other religious thread hurling falsehood and abuse as we Muslim revere all the messagengers of the Almighty, no matter what length you people go to insult our religious beliefs and our messenger still Islam continues to grow rapidly and many non Muslims are converting to it many of whom are educated western women so how is Islam backward or how does it oppress women if your woman folk are turning to it?
It’s because these fools have been deceived by their real master, Satan. They think they are full of the holy spirit but it’s actually a lying spirit. They are really full of it!
Did you know that Allah commanded creatures to prostrate themselves to other creature in the same way Muslims are commanded to prostrate to Allah? Did you know Muhammad taught one of his followers to pray to him along with Allah in order to get his invocation answered? Did you know that the Quran’s story of Allah commanding the angels to worship Adam, with Allah condemning Satan to hell for refusing to do so, is nothing more than a fable, a fairy tale, which Muhammad adopted since he thought it was actual history? Don’t believe me then read the post.
No. I don’t know these things. Are these claims made by scholars of the Quran or are they made by an uneducated, unemployed, overwieght, bipolar guy on the internet who no one should take seriously?
Comment on another thread that has to do with reaction formation.
Sam Shamoun posted an article link here criticizing Allah(swt) for asking the angles and Satan to bow down to Adam as a respect to Adams. Even though we have explained to him(Sam Shamoun) that, it is not to worship Adam as God but is just to show respect to him.
As your article clearly reveals, Sam Shamoun suffers from reaction formation and therefore tries to equate the bowing down to Adam(AS) as โworshipingโ Adam, a creature like how we worship Allah, forgetting that Allah did not ask anyone to pray to Adams 5 times a day. Allah did not ask anyone to continue bowing down to Adam at all times like how we do to Allah.
Sam forgets that, in some cultures today people still bow down to elderly as a sign of respect but not worshiping them and some Muslims do that and there is no problem with that. It is not worshiping anyone and it is not worshiping as God. In English courts and other courts, the judges are addressed your worship, your lordship, my honor etc. by Christians. Are the Christians worshiping the judges?
I did not respond to Sam Shamoun on that thread because I responded him several times on the issue but the reaction formation prompted me to cite this as an example that fits him(Sam Shamoun).
There are so many verses in the Bible where God of the Bible asks humans to do things that they will do to Him(God) to humans and we can cite them. Does that means the God of the Bible allows humans to worship creations? Paul Williams has thrown that challenge to you and Ken Temple and non of you answered him.
Ken, enough of your Biblical Canons that has no Epistle of Banabas, the gospel of Shepherd Hermas etc. in it and with so many books difference from denominations of Christians. You cannot use such Canons as criteria for Muslims.
The gospels of Thomas, Judas, Mary etc. are considered canons by other Christians. Christianity is diverse just immediately after Jesus’s departure, so you cannot force yours on us as the true one. Ebionites, Arians etc. who do not believe Jesus is God has to be killed by Constantine and others.
Sam, are you okay?
Can you explain why all your comments are basically you just linking to your old articles from a decade or more ago?
I think you think posting a link to your article is an argument, but it’s literally just a lame way of avoiding a discussion about your own beliefs.
Why is it you can never answer a question about what you believe, but insist on talking about Islam? I know you can’t reply to my comment because you’re afraid of giving me a platform (while you’re using my platform), but we both know I’ve caught you out.
There are a couple of things in the little book of Jude (Jude 1:9 – from the Testament of Moses; and 1:14 – from the Book of Enoch), and that apparently are considered truth by the inspired writer, so that is not a problem.
Also, the names of the Egyptian magicians of Pharoah that opposed Moses in 2 Tim. 3:8 – not a problem.
These are traditions that are early; whereas the Qur’an gets material from non-inspired books that come after the period of revelation is already finished.
Revelation finished wit the death of the last apostle, John, around 100 AD. Either Jude (verse 3 – “the faith that was once for all time delivered to the saints”) or Revelation ( 96 AD) was the last book written, and Rev. 22:18 says “don’t add any more words to this book” – means the Book of Rev., but the principle is true if it is the last book or one of the last.
The truth of the NT stands out much better as God-breathed and miraculous – Virgin Birth, Jesus’ miracles, atonement for sin, sufferings of Christ, resurrection, empty tomb, appearances, evidences of the early church and growth and doctrinal agreement, etc. and the attitudes of Job, Joseph, Jesus, and Paul in face of suffering and God’s sovereignty; and teachings about repentance, faith and works and who one is saved; the love of God and power of the Holy Spirit and power of the gospel to change lives – obviously the NT is God-breathed and powerful, but Qur’an is just a human book with monotheism, judgement day, claim of revelation, God speaks through prophets and inspires books, angels, heaven and hell, Jesus was Al Masih, virgin born, Word from God, a spirit from God (points to same nature/ substance/ essence ุฌููุฑุ ุฐุงุช ) but those truths are already in the previous Scriptures.
Ken,
In which basis you think the stories in your biblical canon are revelation, and those out of your canon are not revelation?
We know the story of the Arak and animals is found in an Akkadian tablet. Do you think you should remove the story of Noah from the bible since it’s considered a fable of the old?
The history that Quran presents is unique. It stands by itself not by relying on other sources.
If it happened and some stories are found in your biblical canon or out of your biblical canon, that doesn’t affect on the originality of Quran for Quran came from Allah(sw). Also, Quran doesn’t present the stories as you find them in those Gnostic works which are not available for christians at that time let alone to be available for the prophet pbuh who didn’t read Arabic in the first place.
For example, seven sleepers in the cave at Ephesis! Quran has never mentioned the number of those sleepers! Also, the ones who asked the prophet pbuh about them are not christians. Jews who asked the prophet about them.
The ancient stories of the flood, etc. like in the Epic of Gilgamesh, etc. are confirmations of the worldwide flood of Noah; but only the Genesis account is inspired / God-breathed and totally accurate.
You are right that the Qur’an does not give the number of 7 of the sleepers, but it is obvious it got it from that non-authoritative source, as the Qur’an got many things from Jewish Midrash, Targums, fables, myths, heretical Gnostic sources about Jesus, etc.
“The ancient stories of the flood, etc. like in the Epic of Gilgamesh, etc. are confirmations of the worldwide flood of Noah; but only the Genesis account is inspired / God-breathed and totally accurate.”
Double standard, so your argument doesn’t stand.
It is not a double standard, since revelation ceased with the death of the apostles, and the Qur’an affirms the previous Scriptures; and tells the people of the gospel to judge in what God has revealed in their own books (OT and NT).
But NT (nor OT) points to anything like Qur’an or Mohammad; whereas OT clearly points to NT and NT has hundreds of quotes and thousands of allusions of the OT in it.
Nonsense KT, The Quran does not contain fables, legends etc… because the Quranic revelations about Jesus are not contained in the gospel narratives, doesnt mean they are myths or fables as you foolishly argue:
“And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written.” John 21:25
“And there are also many other things which Jesus did”ย โ Many which none of the authors of the gospels have recorded;ย which, if they should be written every oneย โ Every fact, and all the events and circumstances in which Jesus said and did shows as the author of John 21:25 wrote this verse;ย the world itself could not contain theย books that should be written about all that Jesus did.
The Quranic revelations are true narratives about Jesus that so happen to be left out of the gospel narratives that truly do contain fables and legend
We don’t believe that there is any Divine Revelation after the New Testament was finished. (around 96 AD)
Jude 1:3 – “contend earnestly for the faith that was once for all time delivered to the saints”
A lot of stuff in the Qur’an, coming 600 years later, seems to have a lot of information from legends, fables, Jewish Midrash, Targums, Gnostic infancy gospels that were writings by heretics.
It does not show much familiarity or inter-textuality with the 66 books of the Bible, although it claims that those are God’s Word and not corrupted. The Qur’an affirms the Torah, the Zabor of David, and the Injeel, but does not seem to know the contents of them, aside from monotheism, judgement day, prophets’ names, God sends angels and inspired books.
No, inspiration by the Holy Spirit stopped with the death of the apostles of Jesus Al Masih. Inspiration and revelation stopped by 96 or 100 AD. (death of John; last book of NT written)
Justin Martyr was a Christian, and was regenerated by the Holy Spirit, but not “inspired” by the Holy Spirit. He made mistakes and his writings (Dialogue with Trypho, Apologia 1 & 2, etc.) are good witnesses to what Christians believed in the second century (Justin was martyred in 165 AD), but he was not infallible and he made mistakes. Only the Scriptures (OT and NT) are inspired (God-breathed), and because they are inspired, they are infallible and inerrant.
How does that “open the door” when no Christians ever claimed that Justin Martyr was a writer of Scripture or inspired? He is just a Christian martyr of the second century.
Dr. White refuted Mike Licona on this “Dividing Line” program:
“It is not a double standard, since revelation ceased with the death of the apostles”
Who said that? Neither Jesus nor his disciples ever said that.
It’s just the church and it’s saying which has big zero of authority.
“and the Qurโan affirms the previous Scriptures” Which are the original Torah and original Injeel which was revealed to Jesus. Quran affirms the truth only.
“tells the people of the gospel to judge in what God has revealed in their own books (OT and NT)”
This is a lie came form the clown’s school of craziness based on his ignorance of the language of Quran and history.
The truth is that you’re just a fundamental christian with no interest to truth which has come form Allah(sw). Repent since “Indeed, those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers – never would the [whole] capacity of the earth in gold be accepted from one of them if he would [seek to] ransom himself with it. For those there will be a painful punishment, and they will have no helpers.” QT
QT Surah 5
“O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book.
By which Allah guides those who pursue His pleasure to the ways of peace and brings them out from darknesses into the light, by His permission, and guides them to a straight path.
They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary. Say, “Then who could prevent Allah at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?” And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them. He creates what He wills, and Allah is over all things competent.
But the Jews and the Christians say, “We are the children of Allah and His beloved.” Say, “Then why does He punish you for your sins?” Rather, you are human beings from among those He has created. He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them, and to Him is the [final] destination.
O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger to make clear to you [the religion] after a period [of suspension] of messengers, lest you say, “There came not to us any bringer of good tidings or a warner.” But there has come to you a bringer of good tidings and a warner. And Allah is over all things competent.”
They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary.
from Surah 5:17
This is an example of what it seems obvious that the author of the Qur’an did not know what the New Testament teaches, nor what Christians taught for 600 years.
why? because Christians NEVER spoke that way. They never said “God is the Messiah”. They said “The Messiah is God (by nature)”. Big difference.
The NT and Christians for 600 years said, “Jesus the Messiah is the eternal Son, the eternally generated God in the flesh”, (or something like that, like John 1:18 – “the only unique God” or “the only begotten (meaning eternally generated) God”, (or the textual variant, “the only unique Son”, etc.
The NT nor Christians ever said, “God is the Messiah”. That sounds like someone is saying “The Father is the Messiah”. They never said that.
They said and wrote. “the Messiah is God by nature / substance/ essence” or “God in the flesh” or “God who became human/ flesh” ; but NEVER “God is the Messiah”.
The truth is that youโre just a fundamental christian with no interest to truth which has come form Allah(sw).
Not true, since we believe we already have the truth in the OT and NT.
“Your Word is Truth” John 17:17
Psalm 119
Jesus is the Truth. John 14:6
We already have the truth, and to accept something that comes 600 years later that has contradictions to the previous revelation would itself be a contradiction. Also, the Qur’an does not demonstrate a knowledge of the previous Scriptures, although it affirms the truth of some things. (Monotheism, judgement day, Jesus is the Messiah, born of the virgin Mary, did miracles, the previous books are inspired books by God, etc.)
The Qur’an never says the text of the previous Scriptures was corrupted.
“They never said โGod is the Messiahโ. They said โThe Messiah is God (by nature)โ. Big difference.”
Indeed Quran is a linguistic miracle, and it turns everything back to its reality.
Quran doesn’t give your playing by the language any credit.
You believe that Jesus is a man ( a created being) ,and you believe he’s your God.
Anything beyond this fact that Quran states, it would be the language matter and your playing by it.
” the eternally generated God in the flesh”
Either he’s “generated” or he’s “eternally” ! He cannot be both!
Allahs(sw) is Qyyeom ูููู (He stands by himself & He’s independent by himself ). Allah(sw) is not “generated” by soemthing else.
“that sounds like someone is saying โThe Father is the Messiahโ. They never said that.”
Unless you have no idea about the early christianity which has all sorts of beliefs.
Quran deal with what people believes whether christians of the 21th century consider that belief as an “orthodoxy” or not.
“We already have the truth, and to accept something that comes 600 years later”
Then don’t ask jews to believe that their almighty God became a created being to take the job of their animals after more than 1000 years of their scripture!
“Also, the Qurโan does not demonstrate a knowledge of the previous Scriptures”
QT
“Say, “Have you considered: if the Qur’an was from Allah, and you disbelieved in it while a witness from the Children of Israel has testified to something similar and believed while you were arrogant… ?” Indeed, Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people.”
Quran came to refresh your knowledge of what the scripture is with some witnesses of bani Israel, so who are you, Ken ? You’re nothing!
Try to find where in the previous scripture God said this as your false prophet claimed
“that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures” 1Cor 15:4
“The Qurโan never says the text of the previous Scriptures was corrupted.”
The clown’s school , again! Your bible says that (Jeremiah 8:8)!
The reality of your bible says that such as the end of Mark, story of adulterer woman in John.
Till this day, your christian scholars cannot decide if the mark of beast is 666 or 616!
I have seen some perennialists arguing with the passage “Allah is the Messiah” that Christians cannot be disbelievers since they do not say it like that. The argument is the same as Ken’s.
But this is nothing but playing with words. As Abdullah has explained it the Qur’an is the book of monotheism and its phrasings emphasise the message of monotheism. With this in mind the phrasing “Allah is the Messiah” is much more powerful to describe the breach with monotheism the trinity brought than “The Messiah is Allah”.
Jesus taught He is the final word, because He said to the disciples that when the Holy Spirit came, He would lead THEM into ALL the truth and bring to THEIR remembrance everything He taught, and so they preached and wrote and died, so revelation stopped with the death of the last apostle. (John 14:26; 15:16; 16:12-13)
“In these last days, God has spoken by His Son . . . ” Hebrews 1:1-3
Jesus and His apostles are the final word.
Also the prophet Daniel (Daniel 9:24-27) said that Messiah would come, be cut off (killed) and the temple would be destroyed after Messiah is killed; and that Messiah would do 6 things: The first 3 are about the finality of the atonement of Messiah at the cross:
1. to finish the transgression,
2. to make an end of sin,
3. to make atonement for iniquity,
4. to bring in everlasting righteousness, (through the message of the gospel, people can be righteous with God – justification by faith alone, not by works)
5. to seal up vision and prophecy – this one implies that revelation ceased with the Messiah and after His atonement and destruction of the temple, Messiah and His apostles (those that preached and wrote His message) would be last revelation.
and
6. to anoint the most holy one. (Messiah’s anointed by the Holy Spirit at baptism, and anointing and enthronement as King in ascension and seating at the right hand of the Father – see also Acts 2:33-36)
“Jesus taught He is the final word, because He said to the disciples that when the Holy Spirit came, He would lead THEM into ALL the truth and bring to THEIR remembrance everything He taught, and so they preached and wrote and died, so revelation stopped with the death of the last apostle. (John 14:26; 15:16; 16:12-13)”
Yet your false prophet paul came, and he didn’t give s**t for ” those who seemed to be influential (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)โthose, I say, who seemed influential added nothing to me”. Unless you believe that Paul was one from those who were standing before Jesus when Jesus said that.
“โIn these last days, God has spoken by His Son . . . โ Hebrews 1:1-3”
The problem is that you don’t know who wrote this book! By any sense we should consider this book as the words of God?
“Last days? ” We know that your prophet paul believed that Jesus will return while he’s still alive, yet that was not true,and the Proof is more than 2000 years!
The christian interpretation has nothing to do with the text of OT.
I find the interpretation of Daniel in (Daniel 2) himself is more convincing .
Thanks for the concise refutations to Ken. You surely have no comment when an “inspired writer” is considered as a proof for a book and its stories to be true. That is the criteria we must accept from Ken Temple.
Well, the Hindus considered their “inspired writers” makes their Hindu scriptures the true scripture everyone must accept. I wonder if Ken Temple will accept Hindus scriptures as the true scriptures from God because of their “inspired writers”?
Thanks for the concise refutations to Ken. You surely have no comment when an “inspired writer” is considered as a proof for a book and its stories to be true. That is the criteria we must accept from Ken Temple.
Well, the Hindus considered their “inspired writers” makes their Hindu scriptures the true scripture everyone must accept. I wonder if Ken Temple will accept Hindus scriptures as the true scriptures from God because of their “inspired writers”?
The Hindus are obviously not inspired, since the whole religion is completely false – paganism, polytheism, idols, re-incarnation, karma, etc. is totally false.
They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary.
from Surah 5:17
This is an example of what it seems obvious that the author of the Qurโan did not know what the New Testament teaches, nor what Christians taught for 600 years.
why? because Christians NEVER spoke that way. They never said โGod is the Messiahโ. They said โThe Messiah is God (by nature)โ. Big difference.
Your argument was really weak.
Since the author of the Qur’an did not know what Christians believe nor Christian theology or history for 600 years, it is obvious God is not the author of the Qur’an.
Nonsense Ken! Some Christians did believe that God is the Messiah and/or even implied Jesus is the entire Godhead, which is known to be an early chiristian belief known as Modalism.
why? because Christians NEVER spoke that way. They never said โGod is the Messiahโ. They said โThe Messiah is God (by nature)โ. Big difference
I say;
Where is the difference? What is the difference
They never said God is the Messiah(Jesus)-Ken Temple of bloggingtheology.
Then you are a Muslim
why? You never believed God is the Messiah(Jesus). Muslims also NEVER spoke that way i.e. God is the Messiah(Jesus).
If Jesus is the Messiah and the Messiah is not God according to Ken Temple. I do not know why Ken Temple must remain a Christian.
Hindus will insist their scripture is from God just like you insist your scripture is from God, so what you said against them is not a proof but your wishful thinking. We need proof and not believe.
Intellect,
No; you still don’t understand. We don’t say “God is the Messiah”. But we do say “The Messiah is God”. The first one sounds like one is saying the Father is the Messiah and that is wrong. The second one means “the Messiah is God by nature – same substance as the Father, but not the Father – homo – ousias. (same substance); but different in person.
Lol oh Kenny .. a Modalist Christian will view you and your trinitarian beliefs as heretical… you are a heretic in many Christians eyes Kenny
As mentioned some Christians did/ do believe that God is the Messiah and/or even implied Jesus is the entire Godhead, which is known to be an early chiristian belief known as Modalism and which the Quran acknowledges and refutes accordingly… you as a trinitarian christian heretic may not believe it, doesn’t mean the Quran is incorrect it just means your ignorant of other christian heretical teaching that the quran refutes? Including trinitarian myth like other Christians have refuted also ๐
Sabellianism (false teachers Sabellius, Noetus, and Praxeas – (Tertullian wrote a whole book “Against Praxaes”) was never considered Christian and it was condemned very early, even before Nicea in 325 AD. (in the 200s)
Modalism has been mainly associated with Sabellius, who taught a form of it in Rome in the 3rd century. This had come to him via the teachings of Noetus and Praxeas. Noetus was excommunicated from the Church after being examined by council, and Praxeas is said to have recanted his modalistic views in writing, teaching again his former faith. Sabellius likewise was excommunicated by council in Alexandria,
Lol Kenny modalists are not considered Christian according other Christian heretics such as yourself however modalist do profess to be christians that worshipped their modalist views in the early eastern churches lol…
Well other christians will profess that any one who believes in the falsehood of the trinity are both heretics and non christians ๐
And furthermore kenny Modalist beliefs have been around since the second and third centuries, before they were regarded as heresy after the fouth century by other trinitarian christian heretics ๐
What Kenny!?.. Scripture is clear? You’re seeing things that are not there Ken… Nowhere in those verses you reference articulate the trinity ‘oneness’ where the notion that God is comprised of 3 distinct persons that forms one being!!? … Jesus certainty did not teach such a dubious idea… according to Jesus’s teachings and understanding of biblical monotheism you are a heretic Ken… that is very clear! ๐
“why? because Christians NEVER spoke that way. They never said โGod is the Messiahโ. They said โThe Messiah is God (by nature)โ. Big difference”
in 1st century palestine did your “fully god” exist as a human being?
John 1:1-5
John 1:14
Philippians 2:5-8
Luke 1:34-35
Hebrews 10:5
Yes, the eternal Son of God / eternal Word, became a human, was born of the virgin Mary, in the first century; existing as both human and fully God by nature / substance.
Blogging Theology 
Fanatic
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Gentile dog.
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brother faiz, one thing is for sure and that is that christian women must come to jesus not as human beings but dogs/animals/small dogs. christian women have to come like begging dogs and ADMIT they have no SEAT next to the children. this is what impressed jesus , but nowadays bro, they break what jesus set in stone for them.
women have to be animal like
they have to admit that the children have gods priority more than animals
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Yes, but that includes both men and women, so long as they are Gentiles. At least there is gender equality in the Savior’s discrimination. ๐
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here is the confusion bro. big confusion . mighty confusion.
the woman had to beg for crumbs but a roman centurion gets an instant visit. gender inequality?
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Hmmm, perhaps you are right.
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Islamic prayer rituals derive from paganism – the quran gives no instructions whatsoever on how to pray or do ablution. That comes from the pagansim of 7th century arabia and exposes mohammed as a charlatan.
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any historical evidence for your ridiculous claims?
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LOL, of course the pagan Trey has no evidence brother Paul. His lying spirit told him so he believes it. Evidence is not needed, only a non-sequitur.
The irony is that Trey’s religion is full of myths borrowed from paganism. One of the clearest examples is the description of God as an old man, as described in Daniel 7:
“As I looked, โthrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool.”
In his โvisionโ, Daniel saw the โAncient of Daysโ and provided a vivid description of this being (who was obviously โGodโ), including clothing that โwas white as snowโ, and hair that โwas white as woolโ. But as historians have recognized, this description of a white-haired God seems to be influenced by pagan mythology. According to Hammer:
โ[t]he imagery probably comes from Canaanite mythology, in which El was regarded as an aged deity with grey hair.โ[168]
Moreover, the imagery of a โson of manโ approaching the โAncient of Daysโ shares similarities with Canaanite myth. According to Hammer:
โ[i]n Ugaritic texts Baal, the younger god, is described as the one who slew the dragon Itu and so gained victory over the sea, thus establishing his kingship. (In verses 13-14 the second figure is seen as the recipient of authority at the hand of the โancient in yearsโ and this may reflect the ancient mythology preserved in the enthronement festival of New Year rites.โ[169]
http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2016/09/the-book-of-daniel.html
More examples of borrowed pagan myths can be seen in the legends regarding Leviathan, the sea-serpent.
“There are striking parallels between the Ugarit text and certain biblical verses. In the Book of Isaiah, for instance, the prophet says: โIn that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the seaโ (Isaiah 27:1). That is nearly verbatim to what an anonymous Canaanite bard has to say about Baal: โWhen you killed Litan, the fleeing serpent, annihilated the twisty serpent, the potentate with seven heads.” (http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/features/.premium-1.678408)
Yet another example of borrowing can be seen in the Genesis story of the serpent. This myth seems to be borrowed from the Epic of Gilgamesh:
“….in the Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh, man is cheated of immortality by a snake who eats a plant. If Gilgamesh had eaten it, would have made him immortal” (http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/features/.premium-1.678408)
Even the early church fathers recognized the similarities between Christianity and pagan cults like Mithraism and to explain these similarities, they concocted the absurd excuse that Satan had preempted Christianity by creating the pagan religions in order to deceive people into believing that Christianity had been borrowed from paganism:
“For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.” (First Apology, Chapter 66).
So, Trey should spend more time worrying about the clear examples of paganism in his religion rather than wasting time with unproven polemics against Islam.
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Islฤm is the religion of fitrah. Outward expressions of deep reverence and adoration, such as prostration and bowing, are instinctive and originate in the human being’s innate nature. Your claim is nothing more than a fantasy on the same level as your suicidal demigod.
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“the quran gives no instructions whatsoever on how to pray or do ablution”
No insctructions whatsoever, says the troll.
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Paul
“any historical evidence for your ridiculous claims?”
Impossible to produce evidence that the quran does not provide – perhaps you could show us where the quran tells muslims to pray 5 times, where it commands muslims to perform salat positions, where it describes ablution rituals?
These rituals are pagan and are not commanded in the quran – mohammed was a charlatan who stole pagan rituals.
Faiz
“The irony is that Treyโs religion is full of myths borrowed from paganism.”
LOL. The same goes for you – show me where your commands muslims to perform pagan rituals……
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Trey, your moronic posts are riddled with circular arguments and no proof. How do you know the Islamic prayer is borrowed from “pagan rituals”? Provide proof, not your lying spirit’s “inspiration”. ๐
As I showed above, your religion is riddled with pagan mythology. You can keep your talking snake, and we will keep our authentic religion, thank you very much!
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Faiz
So, you cannot find anything in your “holy book” that commands muslims to perform the pagan rituals that you perform?
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LOL, little man Trey still doesn’t seem to understand that circular arguments are not very impressive.
You still haven’t explained how Islamic prayer rituals originate in pre-Islamic paganism.
By the way, have you come across any talking snakes lately? ๐
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The prophet ๏ทบ said “The closest that a person is to his Lord is when he is prostrating, so say a great deal of duโaa” Sahih Muslim.
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Why do these people fear Islam that they go to any length to ridicule it without any evidence even to the the extend to lie about being a Muslim and how they found it to be x, y and z and yet when you ask them a basic Islamic thing which a 5 year old Muslim would know these bigots have no reply. We Muslim do not do that you will not find a Muslim troll in any other religious thread hurling falsehood and abuse as we Muslim revere all the messagengers of the Almighty, no matter what length you people go to insult our religious beliefs and our messenger still Islam continues to grow rapidly and many non Muslims are converting to it many of whom are educated western women so how is Islam backward or how does it oppress women if your woman folk are turning to it?
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It’s because these fools have been deceived by their real master, Satan. They think they are full of the holy spirit but it’s actually a lying spirit. They are really full of it!
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Here is my latest post which is a response to Paul Bilal Williams: https://answeringislamblog.wordpress.com/2017/09/04/sujood-the-act-of-worship-which-allah-shares-with-his-creatures/
Did you know that Allah commanded creatures to prostrate themselves to other creature in the same way Muslims are commanded to prostrate to Allah? Did you know Muhammad taught one of his followers to pray to him along with Allah in order to get his invocation answered? Did you know that the Quran’s story of Allah commanding the angels to worship Adam, with Allah condemning Satan to hell for refusing to do so, is nothing more than a fable, a fairy tale, which Muhammad adopted since he thought it was actual history? Don’t believe me then read the post.
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No. I don’t know these things. Are these claims made by scholars of the Quran or are they made by an uneducated, unemployed, overwieght, bipolar guy on the internet who no one should take seriously?
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You’re just an ignorant man.
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Pauly Wally My Paly Waly!
Comment on another thread that has to do with reaction formation.
Sam Shamoun posted an article link here criticizing Allah(swt) for asking the angles and Satan to bow down to Adam as a respect to Adams. Even though we have explained to him(Sam Shamoun) that, it is not to worship Adam as God but is just to show respect to him.
As your article clearly reveals, Sam Shamoun suffers from reaction formation and therefore tries to equate the bowing down to Adam(AS) as โworshipingโ Adam, a creature like how we worship Allah, forgetting that Allah did not ask anyone to pray to Adams 5 times a day. Allah did not ask anyone to continue bowing down to Adam at all times like how we do to Allah.
Sam forgets that, in some cultures today people still bow down to elderly as a sign of respect but not worshiping them and some Muslims do that and there is no problem with that. It is not worshiping anyone and it is not worshiping as God. In English courts and other courts, the judges are addressed your worship, your lordship, my honor etc. by Christians. Are the Christians worshiping the judges?
I did not respond to Sam Shamoun on that thread because I responded him several times on the issue but the reaction formation prompted me to cite this as an example that fits him(Sam Shamoun).
There are so many verses in the Bible where God of the Bible asks humans to do things that they will do to Him(God) to humans and we can cite them. Does that means the God of the Bible allows humans to worship creations? Paul Williams has thrown that challenge to you and Ken Temple and non of you answered him.
Ken, enough of your Biblical Canons that has no Epistle of Banabas, the gospel of Shepherd Hermas etc. in it and with so many books difference from denominations of Christians. You cannot use such Canons as criteria for Muslims.
The gospels of Thomas, Judas, Mary etc. are considered canons by other Christians. Christianity is diverse just immediately after Jesus’s departure, so you cannot force yours on us as the true one. Ebionites, Arians etc. who do not believe Jesus is God has to be killed by Constantine and others.
Thanks.
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Sam, are you okay?
Can you explain why all your comments are basically you just linking to your old articles from a decade or more ago?
I think you think posting a link to your article is an argument, but it’s literally just a lame way of avoiding a discussion about your own beliefs.
Why is it you can never answer a question about what you believe, but insist on talking about Islam? I know you can’t reply to my comment because you’re afraid of giving me a platform (while you’re using my platform), but we both know I’ve caught you out.
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Another story in the Qur’an that comes form earlier apocryphal and Jewish Midrash fables, etc.
“The Life of Adam and Eve”
and
Gnostic gospels
the legend of the seven sleepers in the cave at Ephesis
apocryphal works, legends, midrashim, targums, and apocryphal Gnostic works
Interesting !
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So Ken and Sam are you going to be consistent and tell me that the Bible contains none of these??
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There are a couple of things in the little book of Jude (Jude 1:9 – from the Testament of Moses; and 1:14 – from the Book of Enoch), and that apparently are considered truth by the inspired writer, so that is not a problem.
Also, the names of the Egyptian magicians of Pharoah that opposed Moses in 2 Tim. 3:8 – not a problem.
These are traditions that are early; whereas the Qur’an gets material from non-inspired books that come after the period of revelation is already finished.
Revelation finished wit the death of the last apostle, John, around 100 AD. Either Jude (verse 3 – “the faith that was once for all time delivered to the saints”) or Revelation ( 96 AD) was the last book written, and Rev. 22:18 says “don’t add any more words to this book” – means the Book of Rev., but the principle is true if it is the last book or one of the last.
The truth of the NT stands out much better as God-breathed and miraculous – Virgin Birth, Jesus’ miracles, atonement for sin, sufferings of Christ, resurrection, empty tomb, appearances, evidences of the early church and growth and doctrinal agreement, etc. and the attitudes of Job, Joseph, Jesus, and Paul in face of suffering and God’s sovereignty; and teachings about repentance, faith and works and who one is saved; the love of God and power of the Holy Spirit and power of the gospel to change lives – obviously the NT is God-breathed and powerful, but Qur’an is just a human book with monotheism, judgement day, claim of revelation, God speaks through prophets and inspires books, angels, heaven and hell, Jesus was Al Masih, virgin born, Word from God, a spirit from God (points to same nature/ substance/ essence ุฌููุฑุ ุฐุงุช ) but those truths are already in the previous Scriptures.
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Ken,
In which basis you think the stories in your biblical canon are revelation, and those out of your canon are not revelation?
We know the story of the Arak and animals is found in an Akkadian tablet. Do you think you should remove the story of Noah from the bible since it’s considered a fable of the old?
The history that Quran presents is unique. It stands by itself not by relying on other sources.
If it happened and some stories are found in your biblical canon or out of your biblical canon, that doesn’t affect on the originality of Quran for Quran came from Allah(sw). Also, Quran doesn’t present the stories as you find them in those Gnostic works which are not available for christians at that time let alone to be available for the prophet pbuh who didn’t read Arabic in the first place.
For example, seven sleepers in the cave at Ephesis! Quran has never mentioned the number of those sleepers! Also, the ones who asked the prophet pbuh about them are not christians. Jews who asked the prophet about them.
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The ancient stories of the flood, etc. like in the Epic of Gilgamesh, etc. are confirmations of the worldwide flood of Noah; but only the Genesis account is inspired / God-breathed and totally accurate.
You are right that the Qur’an does not give the number of 7 of the sleepers, but it is obvious it got it from that non-authoritative source, as the Qur’an got many things from Jewish Midrash, Targums, fables, myths, heretical Gnostic sources about Jesus, etc.
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“The ancient stories of the flood, etc. like in the Epic of Gilgamesh, etc. are confirmations of the worldwide flood of Noah; but only the Genesis account is inspired / God-breathed and totally accurate.”
Double standard, so your argument doesn’t stand.
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It is not a double standard, since revelation ceased with the death of the apostles, and the Qur’an affirms the previous Scriptures; and tells the people of the gospel to judge in what God has revealed in their own books (OT and NT).
But NT (nor OT) points to anything like Qur’an or Mohammad; whereas OT clearly points to NT and NT has hundreds of quotes and thousands of allusions of the OT in it.
Truth stands clear.
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Nonsense KT, The Quran does not contain fables, legends etc… because the Quranic revelations about Jesus are not contained in the gospel narratives, doesnt mean they are myths or fables as you foolishly argue:
“And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written.” John 21:25
“And there are also many other things which Jesus did”ย โ Many which none of the authors of the gospels have recorded;ย which, if they should be written every oneย โ Every fact, and all the events and circumstances in which Jesus said and did shows as the author of John 21:25 wrote this verse;ย the world itself could not contain theย books that should be written about all that Jesus did.
The Quranic revelations are true narratives about Jesus that so happen to be left out of the gospel narratives that truly do contain fables and legend
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We don’t believe that there is any Divine Revelation after the New Testament was finished. (around 96 AD)
Jude 1:3 – “contend earnestly for the faith that was once for all time delivered to the saints”
A lot of stuff in the Qur’an, coming 600 years later, seems to have a lot of information from legends, fables, Jewish Midrash, Targums, Gnostic infancy gospels that were writings by heretics.
It does not show much familiarity or inter-textuality with the 66 books of the Bible, although it claims that those are God’s Word and not corrupted. The Qur’an affirms the Torah, the Zabor of David, and the Injeel, but does not seem to know the contents of them, aside from monotheism, judgement day, prophets’ names, God sends angels and inspired books.
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Ken T just curious to know, was Justin Martyr a church authority inspired by the Holy Ghost to speak about Jesus, according to you?
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No, inspiration by the Holy Spirit stopped with the death of the apostles of Jesus Al Masih. Inspiration and revelation stopped by 96 or 100 AD. (death of John; last book of NT written)
Justin Martyr was a Christian, and was regenerated by the Holy Spirit, but not “inspired” by the Holy Spirit. He made mistakes and his writings (Dialogue with Trypho, Apologia 1 & 2, etc.) are good witnesses to what Christians believed in the second century (Justin was martyred in 165 AD), but he was not infallible and he made mistakes. Only the Scriptures (OT and NT) are inspired (God-breathed), and because they are inspired, they are infallible and inerrant.
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“but he was not infallible and he made mistakes”
You’ve opened the door! T
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How does that “open the door” when no Christians ever claimed that Justin Martyr was a writer of Scripture or inspired? He is just a Christian martyr of the second century.
Dr. White refuted Mike Licona on this “Dividing Line” program:
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“It is not a double standard, since revelation ceased with the death of the apostles”
Who said that? Neither Jesus nor his disciples ever said that.
It’s just the church and it’s saying which has big zero of authority.
“and the Qurโan affirms the previous Scriptures” Which are the original Torah and original Injeel which was revealed to Jesus. Quran affirms the truth only.
“tells the people of the gospel to judge in what God has revealed in their own books (OT and NT)”
This is a lie came form the clown’s school of craziness based on his ignorance of the language of Quran and history.
The truth is that you’re just a fundamental christian with no interest to truth which has come form Allah(sw). Repent since “Indeed, those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers – never would the [whole] capacity of the earth in gold be accepted from one of them if he would [seek to] ransom himself with it. For those there will be a painful punishment, and they will have no helpers.” QT
QT Surah 5
“O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book.
By which Allah guides those who pursue His pleasure to the ways of peace and brings them out from darknesses into the light, by His permission, and guides them to a straight path.
They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary. Say, “Then who could prevent Allah at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?” And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them. He creates what He wills, and Allah is over all things competent.
But the Jews and the Christians say, “We are the children of Allah and His beloved.” Say, “Then why does He punish you for your sins?” Rather, you are human beings from among those He has created. He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them, and to Him is the [final] destination.
O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger to make clear to you [the religion] after a period [of suspension] of messengers, lest you say, “There came not to us any bringer of good tidings or a warner.” But there has come to you a bringer of good tidings and a warner. And Allah is over all things competent.”
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They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary.
from Surah 5:17
This is an example of what it seems obvious that the author of the Qur’an did not know what the New Testament teaches, nor what Christians taught for 600 years.
why? because Christians NEVER spoke that way. They never said “God is the Messiah”. They said “The Messiah is God (by nature)”. Big difference.
The NT and Christians for 600 years said, “Jesus the Messiah is the eternal Son, the eternally generated God in the flesh”, (or something like that, like John 1:18 – “the only unique God” or “the only begotten (meaning eternally generated) God”, (or the textual variant, “the only unique Son”, etc.
The NT nor Christians ever said, “God is the Messiah”. That sounds like someone is saying “The Father is the Messiah”. They never said that.
They said and wrote. “the Messiah is God by nature / substance/ essence” or “God in the flesh” or “God who became human/ flesh” ; but NEVER “God is the Messiah”.
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The truth is that youโre just a fundamental christian with no interest to truth which has come form Allah(sw).
Not true, since we believe we already have the truth in the OT and NT.
“Your Word is Truth” John 17:17
Psalm 119
Jesus is the Truth. John 14:6
We already have the truth, and to accept something that comes 600 years later that has contradictions to the previous revelation would itself be a contradiction. Also, the Qur’an does not demonstrate a knowledge of the previous Scriptures, although it affirms the truth of some things. (Monotheism, judgement day, Jesus is the Messiah, born of the virgin Mary, did miracles, the previous books are inspired books by God, etc.)
The Qur’an never says the text of the previous Scriptures was corrupted.
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“They never said โGod is the Messiahโ. They said โThe Messiah is God (by nature)โ. Big difference.”
Indeed Quran is a linguistic miracle, and it turns everything back to its reality.
Quran doesn’t give your playing by the language any credit.
You believe that Jesus is a man ( a created being) ,and you believe he’s your God.
Anything beyond this fact that Quran states, it would be the language matter and your playing by it.
” the eternally generated God in the flesh”
Either he’s “generated” or he’s “eternally” ! He cannot be both!
Allahs(sw) is Qyyeom ูููู (He stands by himself & He’s independent by himself ). Allah(sw) is not “generated” by soemthing else.
“that sounds like someone is saying โThe Father is the Messiahโ. They never said that.”
Unless you have no idea about the early christianity which has all sorts of beliefs.
Quran deal with what people believes whether christians of the 21th century consider that belief as an “orthodoxy” or not.
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“We already have the truth, and to accept something that comes 600 years later”
Then don’t ask jews to believe that their almighty God became a created being to take the job of their animals after more than 1000 years of their scripture!
“Also, the Qurโan does not demonstrate a knowledge of the previous Scriptures”
QT
“Say, “Have you considered: if the Qur’an was from Allah, and you disbelieved in it while a witness from the Children of Israel has testified to something similar and believed while you were arrogant… ?” Indeed, Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people.”
Quran came to refresh your knowledge of what the scripture is with some witnesses of bani Israel, so who are you, Ken ? You’re nothing!
Try to find where in the previous scripture God said this as your false prophet claimed
“that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures” 1Cor 15:4
“The Qurโan never says the text of the previous Scriptures was corrupted.”
The clown’s school , again! Your bible says that (Jeremiah 8:8)!
The reality of your bible says that such as the end of Mark, story of adulterer woman in John.
Till this day, your christian scholars cannot decide if the mark of beast is 666 or 616!
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I have seen some perennialists arguing with the passage “Allah is the Messiah” that Christians cannot be disbelievers since they do not say it like that. The argument is the same as Ken’s.
But this is nothing but playing with words. As Abdullah has explained it the Qur’an is the book of monotheism and its phrasings emphasise the message of monotheism. With this in mind the phrasing “Allah is the Messiah” is much more powerful to describe the breach with monotheism the trinity brought than “The Messiah is Allah”.
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Jesus taught He is the final word, because He said to the disciples that when the Holy Spirit came, He would lead THEM into ALL the truth and bring to THEIR remembrance everything He taught, and so they preached and wrote and died, so revelation stopped with the death of the last apostle. (John 14:26; 15:16; 16:12-13)
“In these last days, God has spoken by His Son . . . ” Hebrews 1:1-3
Jesus and His apostles are the final word.
Also the prophet Daniel (Daniel 9:24-27) said that Messiah would come, be cut off (killed) and the temple would be destroyed after Messiah is killed; and that Messiah would do 6 things: The first 3 are about the finality of the atonement of Messiah at the cross:
1. to finish the transgression,
2. to make an end of sin,
3. to make atonement for iniquity,
4. to bring in everlasting righteousness, (through the message of the gospel, people can be righteous with God – justification by faith alone, not by works)
5. to seal up vision and prophecy – this one implies that revelation ceased with the Messiah and after His atonement and destruction of the temple, Messiah and His apostles (those that preached and wrote His message) would be last revelation.
and
6. to anoint the most holy one. (Messiah’s anointed by the Holy Spirit at baptism, and anointing and enthronement as King in ascension and seating at the right hand of the Father – see also Acts 2:33-36)
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“Jesus taught He is the final word, because He said to the disciples that when the Holy Spirit came, He would lead THEM into ALL the truth and bring to THEIR remembrance everything He taught, and so they preached and wrote and died, so revelation stopped with the death of the last apostle. (John 14:26; 15:16; 16:12-13)”
Yet your false prophet paul came, and he didn’t give s**t for ” those who seemed to be influential (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)โthose, I say, who seemed influential added nothing to me”. Unless you believe that Paul was one from those who were standing before Jesus when Jesus said that.
“โIn these last days, God has spoken by His Son . . . โ Hebrews 1:1-3”
The problem is that you don’t know who wrote this book! By any sense we should consider this book as the words of God?
“Last days? ” We know that your prophet paul believed that Jesus will return while he’s still alive, yet that was not true,and the Proof is more than 2000 years!
The christian interpretation has nothing to do with the text of OT.
I find the interpretation of Daniel in (Daniel 2) himself is more convincing .
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“and that apparently are considered truth by the inspired writer, so that is not a problem”
No comment!
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abdullah1423
Thanks for the concise refutations to Ken. You surely have no comment when an “inspired writer” is considered as a proof for a book and its stories to be true. That is the criteria we must accept from Ken Temple.
Well, the Hindus considered their “inspired writers” makes their Hindu scriptures the true scripture everyone must accept. I wonder if Ken Temple will accept Hindus scriptures as the true scriptures from God because of their “inspired writers”?
Thanks.
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abdullah1423
Thanks for the concise refutations to Ken. You surely have no comment when an “inspired writer” is considered as a proof for a book and its stories to be true. That is the criteria we must accept from Ken Temple.
Well, the Hindus considered their “inspired writers” makes their Hindu scriptures the true scripture everyone must accept. I wonder if Ken Temple will accept Hindus scriptures as the true scriptures from God because of their “inspired writers”?
Thanks.
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The Hindus are obviously not inspired, since the whole religion is completely false – paganism, polytheism, idols, re-incarnation, karma, etc. is totally false.
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Except he (Abdullah 1423) did not refute anything.
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They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary.
from Surah 5:17
This is an example of what it seems obvious that the author of the Qurโan did not know what the New Testament teaches, nor what Christians taught for 600 years.
why? because Christians NEVER spoke that way. They never said โGod is the Messiahโ. They said โThe Messiah is God (by nature)โ. Big difference.
Your argument was really weak.
Since the author of the Qur’an did not know what Christians believe nor Christian theology or history for 600 years, it is obvious God is not the author of the Qur’an.
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Nonsense Ken! Some Christians did believe that God is the Messiah and/or even implied Jesus is the entire Godhead, which is known to be an early chiristian belief known as Modalism.
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no; heretics are not Christians.
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Ken Temple
why? because Christians NEVER spoke that way. They never said โGod is the Messiahโ. They said โThe Messiah is God (by nature)โ. Big difference
I say;
Where is the difference? What is the difference
They never said God is the Messiah(Jesus)-Ken Temple of bloggingtheology.
Then you are a Muslim
why? You never believed God is the Messiah(Jesus). Muslims also NEVER spoke that way i.e. God is the Messiah(Jesus).
If Jesus is the Messiah and the Messiah is not God according to Ken Temple. I do not know why Ken Temple must remain a Christian.
Hindus will insist their scripture is from God just like you insist your scripture is from God, so what you said against them is not a proof but your wishful thinking. We need proof and not believe.
Thanks.
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Intellect,
No; you still don’t understand. We don’t say “God is the Messiah”. But we do say “The Messiah is God”. The first one sounds like one is saying the Father is the Messiah and that is wrong. The second one means “the Messiah is God by nature – same substance as the Father, but not the Father – homo – ousias. (same substance); but different in person.
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Lol oh Kenny .. a Modalist Christian will view you and your trinitarian beliefs as heretical… you are a heretic in many Christians eyes Kenny
As mentioned some Christians did/ do believe that God is the Messiah and/or even implied Jesus is the entire Godhead, which is known to be an early chiristian belief known as Modalism and which the Quran acknowledges and refutes accordingly… you as a trinitarian christian heretic may not believe it, doesn’t mean the Quran is incorrect it just means your ignorant of other christian heretical teaching that the quran refutes? Including trinitarian myth like other Christians have refuted also ๐
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Sabellianism (false teachers Sabellius, Noetus, and Praxeas – (Tertullian wrote a whole book “Against Praxaes”) was never considered Christian and it was condemned very early, even before Nicea in 325 AD. (in the 200s)
Modalism has been mainly associated with Sabellius, who taught a form of it in Rome in the 3rd century. This had come to him via the teachings of Noetus and Praxeas. Noetus was excommunicated from the Church after being examined by council, and Praxeas is said to have recanted his modalistic views in writing, teaching again his former faith. Sabellius likewise was excommunicated by council in Alexandria,
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Nope; they are not Christians. Anyone who denies the Trinity or Deity of Christ is not a Christian – see John 8:24
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Sabellianism was never considered Christian and it was condemned very early, even before Nicea in 325 AD.
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Lol Kenny modalists are not considered Christian according other Christian heretics such as yourself however modalist do profess to be christians that worshipped their modalist views in the early eastern churches lol…
Well other christians will profess that any one who believes in the falsehood of the trinity are both heretics and non christians ๐
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And furthermore kenny Modalist beliefs have been around since the second and third centuries, before they were regarded as heresy after the fouth century by other trinitarian christian heretics ๐
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but Scripture is earlier and clear – John 8:24; I John 2:18-28; 4:1-6; 2 John 7 – First century. Matthew 28:18; 2 Cor. 13:14
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What Kenny!?.. Scripture is clear? You’re seeing things that are not there Ken… Nowhere in those verses you reference articulate the trinity ‘oneness’ where the notion that God is comprised of 3 distinct persons that forms one being!!? … Jesus certainty did not teach such a dubious idea… according to Jesus’s teachings and understanding of biblical monotheism you are a heretic Ken… that is very clear! ๐
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“why? because Christians NEVER spoke that way. They never said โGod is the Messiahโ. They said โThe Messiah is God (by nature)โ. Big difference”
in 1st century palestine did your “fully god” exist as a human being?
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John 1:1-5
John 1:14
Philippians 2:5-8
Luke 1:34-35
Hebrews 10:5
Yes, the eternal Son of God / eternal Word, became a human, was born of the virgin Mary, in the first century; existing as both human and fully God by nature / substance.
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when you EXIST as something, are you IDENTIFIED as what you exist as?
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The Scriptures certainly identified Jesus as God in the first century.
John 1:1 – 15
John 1:14
John 20:28
Philippians 2:5-8
John 5:17-18
John 8:24
John 8:56-58
Colossians 1:15-20
Hebrews 1:3, 6, 8, 10-12
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so you agree that god EXISTED as a human being?
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