Filmed yesterday at Speakers Corner. Christian evangelist Richard concedes that the gospel of John does not give us the historical words of Jesus, but is in fact a highly interpreted account created by John. This is the consensus view of New Testament scholars (Christian & non-Christian) around the world. This being so, it poses a huge challenge to Christian evangelism which relies so heavily on the Gospel of John. If the historical Jesus did not say the ‘I am’ statements attributed to him, can Christians in good conscience continue to pretend he did? Furthermore, I suggest that the Church’s pastors, priests and ministers who know these things fail to pass on the truth of the gospels to their congregations. This is an intellectual scandal. Richard does not disagree.
Categories: Bible, Christianity, Jesus, Missionaries, Speakers Corner
Blogging Theology 
Ignorance ( of scholarly opinions and conjecture ) is bliss.
You can’t believe both in the scholars and the inspiration/providential preservation of scripture. You have to come down in favour of one or the other.
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You don’t have to “believe in” scholarship.
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Richards defense of Craig Blomberg’s highly doubtful and questionable “scholarship” is sad and pitiful.
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methods of the 4th evangelist investigated :
http://vridar.org/2014/11/15/how-john-used-mark-investigating-the-methods-of-the-fourth-evangelist-part-3/
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timeline 4: 06
don’t worry man, your credit card is secure.
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im impressed you noticed..
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The so-called scholars have no evidence for their claims. They assume Evolution, forgery and Manipulation and fallible copying dominated to such an extent that it was impossible for the preserved original to manifest Itself. This ist pure hogwash.
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‘The so-called scholars have no evidence for their claims.’
Firstly individuals such as Professor Bart Ehrman are real scholars who are qualified experts in their fields of research.
Secondly, you have not read their work so you it is you who spout pure hogwash. lol
If you read their research you will see a mass of historical and textual evidence. Go and get yourself educated dude. You are embarrassing yourself.
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It’s funny how Christians often scoff at any scholar who doesn’t maintain the devotional Christian narrative. They prefer to accept compromised Scholars like Bloomberg and Wallace, etc. while putting their own heads in the sand and pretending that scholars who take a more unbiased approach like Ehrman and others like him either do not exist, or are not “real” scholars.
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Well that wouldn’t be the first time Ignoramus has embarrassed himself!
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Links to articles defending the Gospel of John, with links of lots of scholars who defend it and believe John the apostle/disciple wrote the book.
Jesus said those words in the Gospel, since the book is “God-breathed” and was written by an eyewitness of His ministry.
God cannot lie. Titus 1:2
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2017/08/08/defense-of-the-apostle-john-disciple-of-jesus-as-the-author-of-the-fourth-gospel/
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God cannot lie. Except when he actually lies:
“For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.”
God cannot be stupid. Except when he’s stupider than a botanist:
“Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs.”
God cannot be weak. Except when he’s tired:
“… and Jesus, tired as he was from the journey, sat down by the well.”
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the 2 Thessalonians 2:11 does not mean that God did the lying, rather it means He allowed an evil – lying spirit to attack them and deceive them so that they believed a lie; and it is a judgement passage from verse 10, because they refused to love the truth and be saved.
It is like In Job chapter 1-2 and 2 Cor. 12:7-10 – God allowed Satan to attack Job and a messenger of Satan (a demon) the apostle Paul, but God does not do the sin itself.
The others are Jesus when in His human incarnated state (Philippians 2:5-8; John 1:14) – he humbled Himself to be a human.
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“God cannot lie”
If I were a christian -Thank God I’m not & all the praise to Him alone- , I would say why do you limit God, Ken? Your God CANNOT lie? That’s so bad! He is not all loving !
That what we hear from christians when they keep begging us to believe that God did die on the cross!
BTW, your god had been lying to his beloved people for more than 1000 years by saying this
” This command I am given today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach “.
They didn’t know that law was just a “garbage” !
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NT never says God’s law is garbage, so you are lying about what Christians teach the proper meaning and purpose and use of the law is.
“The Law is good, righteous, and holy” Romans 7:12
see also 1 Tim. 1:8-11
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“we know his testimony is true”
we know it isn’t true. we will use luke to disprove his testimony.
quote :
Good point. If Luke imagined the risen Jesus to have visible wounds in his hands and feet, then why wouldn’t the disciples have noticed those wounds and identified him as being Jesus in the earlier appearance story (Luke 23:13-35)?
Luke makes no mention of nails, hammers, pounding, nor of a spear wound, nor of a wound in Jesus’ side, nor wounds in Jesus’ hands, nor wounds in Jesus’ feet, either in his crucifixion story or in his resurrection appearance stories.
Luke provides us with a perfectly reasonable alternative explanation for Jesus offering his hands and feet to be examined–namely to prove that he has a physical body of flesh and bone, and that he is NOT a ghost.
Furthermore, the failure of disciples of Jesus to recognize him on the road to Emmaus or while sitting around the table at a house in Emmaus, indicates that Luke did not imagine Jesus to have visible wounds on his hands and feet.
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Good points. The claim that nails were used to fasten Jesus to the cross is supported only by the Fourth Gospel, and only in the doubting Thomas story, NOT in ANY Gospel account of the crucifixion.
None of the canonical Gospel accounts of the crucifixion make any mention of hammers, or nails, or pounding, or wounds in Jesus’ hands, or wounds in Jesus’ feet. The doubting Thomas story is the only Gospel evidence for the use of nails in the crucifixion of Jesus.
The resurrection appearance stories in Luke do not corroborate the doubting Thomas story and provide reason to doubt the historicity of that story. Matthew and Mark imply that the first appearances of Jesus to the twelve occurred in Galilee, NOT in Jerusalem, in which case the appearance stories in Luke and John are fictional. Matthew and Mark provide further evidence against the historicity of the doubting Thomas story.
Given the historicaly unreliable character of the Fourth Gospel it is more likely that IF there were “appearances” experiences of Jesus after the crucifixion by the twelve, those PROBABLY first took place in Galilee a week or two after the crucifixion, meaning that the appearance stories in Luke and the Fourth Gospel are fictional, including the doubting Thomas story, which is the only Gospel evidence of the use of nails in Jesus’ crucifixion.
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Welcome to Ken’s Gospel Circle …
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the first circle of Hell.
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Ken Temple
August 8, 2017 • 8:19 pm
the 2 Thessalonians 2:11 does not mean that God did the lying, rather it means He allowed an evil – lying spirit to attack them and deceive them so that they believed a lie; and it is a judgement passage from verse 10, because they refused to love the truth and be saved.
It is like In Job chapter 1-2 and 2 Cor. 12:7-10 – God allowed Satan to attack Job and a messenger of Satan (a demon) the apostle Paul, but God does not do the sin itself.
The others are Jesus when in His human incarnated state (Philippians 2:5-8; John 1:14) – he humbled Himself to be a human
I say;
You have audacity to blame someone’s God when he judges but you will vehemently supports your God, sends delusions to people.
Your last paragraph is talking about God humbling Himself as incarnated being. Well, that is the concept of idol worship where God will incarnate into other beings like man, monkey, elephants, snakes of the Hindus and voodoo idol worshipers. They believe God can humble Himself into His creature just like you. We do not believe God the un created can be created like Jesus, monkey, snake, elephant, Haile Selaissie, cow etc. It is blaspheme punishable in hell fire if one does not repent and desist from thinking God become His creation i.e. idol belief.
Thanks.
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Ken,
The whole chapter of Roman 7 is about that the law doesn’t fit with your nature. Read verse 8 to see how satanic your prophet Paul was.
Your prophet named the law as ” garbage”.
BTW, I have answered you about this chapter many times on this blog.
Just Read its title in your translations, man.
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Your answer shows you don’t understand at all. You need to read and meditate on that whole chapter again; but read the whole book of Romans several times slowly. You didn’t get it, by your answer.
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“As I read Romans, I don’t walk away thinking, “My, what a carefully planned out letter.” I think more, “Paul is winging it.” ”
https://www.peteenns.com/paul-it-looks-like-hes-sort-of-winging-it/
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Indeed I do understand that chapter.
The conclusion of that chapter- and I challenge you to deny it – that the law doesn’t fit with your nature. That law cannot be applied on that nature otherwise the law would lead to sinful passions as he stated explicitly in verses 5-6 in the same chapter.
I’m not taken by Paul language since it’s so superficial and vapid. He exposed himself once he established this satanic introduction.
In sum, God had been lying to his beloved jews about his law, which christians and by their prophet Paul have discovered that law was just a garbage leading to sins. What a religion!
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Actually he says, “I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man” Romans 7:22
and
that inner man is in conflict with “the flesh” or “sinful nature” or as you may say, “havaye Nafs” هوای نفسor “Nafs Amareh va Hava” نفس اماره و هوای (or something similar)
The apostle shows a true believer loves God’s law, but that our fleshly / sinful nature fights against it. We have to renew our minds (Romans 8:6; 12:1-2; Colossians 3:1-3) and fight against sinful and selfish desires. (Ephesians 6:10-18; Galatians 5:13-26; Romans chapters 6, 7, & 8)
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Jesus said he had not come to abolish the law (Matt 5), Paul said the law was abolished (Ephesians 2).
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No, Ephesians 2, if you study it carefully, says, “the enmity of the law was abolished” NOT the law itself.
(the curse/ wrath/judgment of God on sinners – all humanity who ALL have broken God’s law (Romans 3:9-23; I John 3:4 – and stand condemned without Christ as Savior) and the hatred that it creates between Jews and Gentiles – see context of Ephesians 2:11-22) The cultural barriers created by the law have been broken down, (verse 14).
So, the law of God was not abolished, period.
the enmity / judgment of God against law breakers was abolished, so that all cultures can love each other in Christ, in His body of fellowship of believers.
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Ken you’re lying about the Bible again when you brazenly claim:
“Ephesians 2, if you study it carefully, says, “the enmity of the law was abolished” NOT the law itself.”
Wrong.
“He has abolished the law”!!
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No, you are ignoring the word “enmity” and also the context of the whole passage from Ephesians 2:11-22 – you don’t know how to do intellectual exegesis and you are dull on this point. And you have been dull on this paragraph and meaning for a long time.
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the enmity (hatred, justice, judgment that sends you to hell) of the law has not been abolished for you who have not repented and turned in heart-trust to Christ. You are under the curse and judgement and condemnation of the law. John 3:18; Romans 3:9-23
Galatians 3:10-13
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“Your answer shows you don’t understand at all. You need to read and meditate on that whole chapter again;”
If it has to be “meditated on”, it cannot be be understood universally valid.
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”
Jesus said he had not come to abolish the law (Matt 5)”
he also said to the rich man “you lack one thing…”
that “one thing” was not “sacrifice” of jesus. that one thing was to give up money and live a homeless life.
you might be interesting in this discussion
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you have to keep reading in Mark 10 after the “one thing” – Jesus is testing the man to see if he is willing to give his idol (his money).
You keep repeating that objection and yet you guys never read this that has refuted you.
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2013/09/02/no-muslim-can-deal-with-mark-1023-27/
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“you have to keep reading in Mark 10 after the “one thing” – Jesus is testing the man to see if he is willing to give his idol (his money).”
but you are alright with him making an eating, drinking and breathing person into IDOL?YOU don’t want him to extremely venerate cash, but you want him to fuse the love he has for the ALMIGHTY with love for a human being he see as dependent as himself?
you accuse the man of worse than cash veneration.
quote :
Second, if we are to accept Jesus at his word, then when he said the rich man lacked one thing, we are not permitted to say he lacked two things. In context, the one thing he lacked was obedience to the commandment to love his neighbor as himself, which would require that he contribute to helping the poor (Leviticus 19:18). Since that qualifies as “one thing”, then apparently the second part of Jesus’ answer “come and follow me” is more or less an afterthought, an invitation to do something that might be a good idea, but which is not essential. Yes, Jesus did indeed teach that entry into the kingdom of God could be achieved simply by following the law, Matthew 5:19, so Christians who say Jesus thought following him was essential to salvation, are not appreciating his original legalistic teaching.
It needs to be emphasized that when Jesus said that man lacked “one thing”, Jesus contradicts Paul. Paul taught that everybody is sinful all day, every day, Romans 3:19-20. Paul would never have said that any certain person’s obedience to Mosaic law lacked “one thing”. On the other hand, if Jesus knew that the rich man lacked many things in his attempted obedience to Mosaic law, he would not have characterized such omissions as “one” thing. The problem therefore is that Jesus certainly disagreed with Paul and believed that a human being was capable of correctly obeying the full Mosaic Law. Luke agrees that sinners can obey the law to such a degree that God views them righteous for no other reason except their obedience to Mosaic Law, see Luke 1:5-6.
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“No, the law is not garbage because it’s purpose is to show you how dirty you are, because you can never live up to it. (see Matthew 5:21-30) it condemns you and judges you as a hopeless sinner and forces you to see that you need a Savior / Mediatory / sacrifice / perfect man who never sinned who paid the penalty of sin for you.”
how come the jews say completely the opposite?
i quote
This argument relies upon abuse of scripture and denies Tanach. By arguing that the Law brings only a knowledge of sinfulness and condemnation, Paul has greatly misled his audience and denied the promise of God. He makes the blessing of God for keeping the law to be a chimera. He makes it a joke. By writing that God demands perfection, he annuls the blessing altogether. Because no condition exists, according to Paul, under which one can receive the blessing promised for keeping the Law, in reality, the Law is only a curse. So, Paul preaches a grace through faith, rather than through the Law.
But this is not the teaching of Tanach. Ezekiel writes that HaShem takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Instead, he wishes them to turn from their ways and live (Ez. 33:10-16). He wishes them to make restitution for the wrong done. And they are to return to observing the Torah. This means that, according to Tanach, the transgressor is restored to God through Torah, through the Law. And when the wicked turns from his ways: “None of the sins that they have committed shall be remembered against them; they have done what is lawful and right, they shall surely live (Ez. 33:16). This teaching is in stark contrast to Paul’s teaching that one cannot be justified by the Law.
Consider also Isaiah 1. As Isaiah castigates the Jewish people for their injustice, he tells them how to become close to God again. And the answer is to return to Torah, to do justice: “Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your doings from before my eyes; cease to do evil, learn to do good; seek justice, rescue the oppressed, defend the orphan, plead for the widow” (vv. 16-17). As they are being condemned by their breaking of the law, they can be saved by keeping it. Paul’s argument that no one can be justified through the deeds of the law, but only through faith in Jesus, contradicts Tanach.
In fact, Paul outright lies to make the case. In Deut. 30, Moses teaches the people that they can keep the law. He tells them that the Torah is near to them, on their lips and in their heart, so that they can perform it (Deut. 30:14). Paul cuts off the end of the verse and makes the verse to be about believing in Jesus. The lips of Deut. 30 he makes to be about confessing Jesus to be lord and the heart, believing in the resurrection. Paul has altered the meaning of the passage altogether. The passage contradicts Paul’s teaching that one cannot keep the Torah. And it has nothing to do with belief in Jesus, or even the Messiah generally.
Considering these facts, one cannot say that Paul is vindicating Israel’s trust in God. On the contrary, he denies the principles upon which that trust is built. He has likened the disbelieving Jew to a priest of Baal and denied that God will bless them for keeping Torah. He has replaced trust in God with trust in Jesus. And to do this, he has misrepresented HaShem’s holy Torah. Paul’s purpose of quoting Ps. 95 was not to indict Israel’s enemies, but those of Israel that did not confess Jesus as lord or believe in his resurrection. His goal was to vindicate, not Israel, but believers in Jesus, some of which just happened to be Jewish. To achieve this goal, he lied. He maligned those that trust in God, and worse, he maligned HaShem’s holy Torah.
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“The apostle shows a true believer loves God’s law, but that our fleshly / sinful nature fights against it.”
Therefore, the law is just a garabge since it cannot deal with that nature. God should have learnt from your prophet Paul what it’s good for his beloved jews instead of lying to them for more than 1000 years. It seems your prophet knew the mankind nature more than the creator. How satanic !
Welcome to christianity !
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No, the law is not garbage because it’s purpose is to show you how dirty you are, because you can never live up to it. (see Matthew 5:21-30) it condemns you and judges you as a hopeless sinner and forces you to see that you need a Savior / Mediatory / sacrifice / perfect man who never sinned who paid the penalty of sin for you.
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Jesus never taught that. God says the Law brings life.
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Jesus proved that no one can live up to the law and that the law condemns all of us sinners; only Christ can save you.
Matthew 5:21-30
Matthew 5:48 – “therefore you are to be perfect, even as Your heavenly Father is perfect.”
Perfect
no one is
you are condemned
you have to have a mediator – Savior – Sacrifice
only Isa Al Masih Jesus the Messiah
عیسی المسیح
is that one person who can save you.
Repent and trust in Him and all that He is in the true Injeel – the New Testament.
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‘Jesus proved that no one can live up to the law’!
LOL God says it is easy to obey the Law in Deuteronomy.
Ken schooled again.
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No, the point in Deut. 30:11-14 is not that it is “easy to obey”, rather, it is saying that they are responsible and they know what their duty is – they know God’s law/will – they cannot say, “its in heaven” or “it’s too far away across the sea” (secret, unknown, etc.) – the word is in your heart and in your mouth = they have heard it read and have even memorized it and talked about it – but God is talking about the human tendency to say, “I didn’t know”.
Anyone who reads Matthew 5:21-30 (about the roots of murder being anger and hatred; and the roots of adultery being mental lusting) and says “obeying the law is easy” is deceiving themselves.
Paul, you even admitted at one time, for a few days, that the disciples of praying 5 times a day and getting up early and fasting during Ramadan were too hard for you and left Islam for a few days and then came back. What do you think now? Do you really think those external rituals are harder than the internal sins that Jesus talks about in Matthew 5:21-30 and His law for perfection (Matthew 5:48) and loving one’s enemies (Matthew 5:38-48)?
My goodness, that (those external disciplines of ritual prayers and fasting) is NOTHING compared to the internal sinful thoughts, roots of external sins – jealousy, anger, hatred, pride, arrogance, lusts, selfishness, bitterness, greed, coveting, (the 10th commandment).
See Mark 7:20-23
And He was saying, “That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23 All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”
you really think a human being can love God perfectly at all times? (Deuteronomy 6:5-7)
Deuteronomy 5:29 – “Oh that they had such a heart in them that they would fear Me and obey Me . . . !!”
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“disciplines”
sorry for typo
“disciplines of praying 5 times a day” etc.
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“you have to keep reading in Mark 10 after the “one thing” – Jesus is testing the man to see if he is willing to give his idol (his money).”
but you are alright with him making an eating, drinking and breathing person into IDOL?YOU don’t want him to extremely venerate cash, but you want him to fuse the love he has for the ALMIGHTY with love for a human being he see as dependent as himself?
you accuse the man of worse than cash veneration.
quote :
Second, if we are to accept Jesus at his word, then when he said the rich man lacked one thing, we are not permitted to say he lacked two things. In context, the one thing he lacked was obedience to the commandment to love his neighbor as himself, which would require that he contribute to helping the poor (Leviticus 19:18). Since that qualifies as “one thing”, then apparently the second part of Jesus’ answer “come and follow me” is more or less an afterthought, an invitation to do something that might be a good idea, but which is not essential. Yes, Jesus did indeed teach that entry into the kingdom of God could be achieved simply by following the law, Matthew 5:19, so Christians who say Jesus thought following him was essential to salvation, are not appreciating his original legalistic teaching.
It needs to be emphasized that when Jesus said that man lacked “one thing”, Jesus contradicts Paul. Paul taught that everybody is sinful all day, every day, Romans 3:19-20. Paul would never have said that any certain person’s obedience to Mosaic law lacked “one thing”. On the other hand, if Jesus knew that the rich man lacked many things in his attempted obedience to Mosaic law, he would not have characterized such omissions as “one” thing. The problem therefore is that Jesus certainly disagreed with Paul and believed that a human being was capable of correctly obeying the full Mosaic Law. Luke agrees that sinners can obey the law to such a degree that God views them righteous for no other reason except their obedience to Mosaic Law, see Luke 1:5-6.
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“it condemns you and judges you as a hopeless sinner and forces you to see that you need a Savior”
you made what comes out of the mind of your god into a joke. you are saying violent murder of god is more close to gods hearth than gods own system of guidance which implies god don’t trust his SYSTEM of guidance only a bloody go between.
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“It’s purpose to show how dirty you are” ?
This has never been taught by Israelite prophets including Jesus, and you know that, Ken!
Fear Allaah (sw)! How old are you?This life is so short man! You has given all your life for a man called paul? What are you gonna do in the day of judgment? godman who dies for your sins is a pagan idea! It has nothing to do with عيسى عليه السلام
What’s wrong if you asked The God of Jesus to guide you?
Run to Allaah(sw)alone . Release your tears before him, and believe me, He will forgive you even if your “sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as the snow”
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Is that Richard Zetter who is talking to you? (one of the contributors to this blog) ?
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In Mark 6:50 and Matthew 14:27, Jesus said there “I am”
ἐγώ εἰμι (ego eimi) μὴ φοβεῖσθε
I am! Don’t be afraid!
He was claiming by His presence, and walking on the water, and also the miracle of stilling the storm, to be the eternal Son of God.
Matthew records their response – they worshipped Him and said, “You are certainly God’s Son!”
Shows the Synoptics are in harmony in content with the theology of Christ in the gospel according to John.
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The best verse showing Jesus’ divinity according to you is not found in the synoptic gospels! Could you answer why?
“Shows the Synoptics are in harmony in content with the theology of Christ in the gospel according to John.”
Only a fundamental christian who would say that.
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“we know his testimony is true”
we know it isn’t true. we will use luke to disprove his testimony.
quote :
Good point. If Luke imagined the risen Jesus to have visible wounds in his hands and feet, then why wouldn’t the disciples have noticed those wounds and identified him as being Jesus in the earlier appearance story (Luke 23:13-35)?
Luke makes no mention of nails, hammers, pounding, nor of a spear wound, nor of a wound in Jesus’ side, nor wounds in Jesus’ hands, nor wounds in Jesus’ feet, either in his crucifixion story or in his resurrection appearance stories.
Luke provides us with a perfectly reasonable alternative explanation for Jesus offering his hands and feet to be examined–namely to prove that he has a physical body of flesh and bone, and that he is NOT a ghost.
Furthermore, the failure of disciples of Jesus to recognize him on the road to Emmaus or while sitting around the table at a house in Emmaus, indicates that Luke did not imagine Jesus to have visible wounds on his hands and feet.
Good points. The claim that nails were used to fasten Jesus to the cross is supported only by the Fourth Gospel, and only in the doubting Thomas story, NOT in ANY Gospel account of the crucifixion.
None of the canonical Gospel accounts of the crucifixion make any mention of hammers, or nails, or pounding, or wounds in Jesus’ hands, or wounds in Jesus’ feet. The doubting Thomas story is the only Gospel evidence for the use of nails in the crucifixion of Jesus.
The resurrection appearance stories in Luke do not corroborate the doubting Thomas story and provide reason to doubt the historicity of that story. Matthew and Mark imply that the first appearances of Jesus to the twelve occurred in Galilee, NOT in Jerusalem, in which case the appearance stories in Luke and John are fictional. Matthew and Mark provide further evidence against the historicity of the doubting Thomas story.
Given the historicaly unreliable character of the Fourth Gospel it is more likely that IF there were “appearances” experiences of Jesus after the crucifixion by the twelve, those PROBABLY first took place in Galilee a week or two after the crucifixion, meaning that the appearance stories in Luke and the Fourth Gospel are fictional, including the doubting Thomas story, which is the only Gospel evidence of the use of nails in Jesus’ crucifixion.
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“He was claiming by His presence, and walking on the water, and also the miracle of stilling the storm, to be the eternal Son of God.”
wrong reply. the stilling of the storm could have been achieved by the disciples. you can move mountains with faith, in mark faith is enough to stop a storm, the pals didn’t have any “do you still have no faith” ? they could have achieved this miracle and let jesus sleep.
when he was walking on water he was not claiming to be the yhwh hovering on water in genesis, he was trying to tell his pals that he isn’t a ghost. he identified himself as a human.
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Matthew 14:33
they worshipped Him and said, “You are certainly God’s Son!”
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The Greek word for worship here is “Proskuneo” which according to the lexicon means “to pay homage or reverence to priests, saints, but also to God. The same word is used in Acts 10:25 “When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him (prosekinisen)”.
Worship that only God deserves is calles “Latreia” in the NT. Jesus and other human beings are given “proskuneo” but never “latreia”, which is only given to God the Father.
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proskuneo is also used for God only in Rev. 19:10 and 22:8-9. yes, it can be used for paying homage to someone of a higher rank, a human king, etc. but these contexts show that it means worship only for God.
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Ken Temple
August 8, 2017 • 8:19 pm
It is like In Job chapter 1-2 and 2 Cor. 12:7-10 – God allowed Satan to attack Job and a messenger of Satan (a demon) the apostle Paul, but God does not do the sin itself.
The others are Jesus when in His human incarnated state (Philippians 2:5-8; John 1:14) – he humbled Himself to be a human
I say;
You have audacity to blame someone’s God when he judges but you will vehemently supports your God, sends delusions to people.
Your last paragraph is talking about God humbling Himself as incarnated being. Well, that is the concept of idol worship where God will incarnate into other beings like man, monkey, elephants, snakes of the Hindus and voodoo idol worshipers. They believe God can humble Himself into His creature just like you. We do not believe God the un created can be created like Jesus, monkey, snake, elephant, Haile Selaissie, cow etc. It is blaspheme punishable in hell fire if one does not repent and desist from thinking God become His creation i.e. idol belief.
Thanks.
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LOL
Intellect mentions Haile Selaissie again (after taking a break on that mantra) . . . for 1000th time.
LOL
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lol.
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“No, the law is not garbage because it’s purpose is to show you how dirty you are, because you can never live up to it.”
quote :
You can’t help being naughty and god sent the law to help, but it didn’t, meaning you have to die, so he sent his son to die in your place because god couldn’t just send functional laws or change his mind or know what he was doing in the first place
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you reduced the torah to that which uncovers/exposes.
you don’t see it as that which brings out the good in someone
you don’t even see it as a guidance to live a good life. the jews see it as guidance to live good life and make it to heaven. since in your mind the job of your torah is to expose sinners, then why you call torah “law” ? it should be called “exposer”
law is to show you where you went wrong and how to fix yourself and trust the GUIDANCE. you trust a bloody sacrifice and church instructional manual. you being christian need church manual to judge other christians. so you prefer your church manual over torah, right?
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quote :
No, the point in Deut. 30:11-14 is not that it is “easy to obey”, rather, it is saying that they are responsible and they know what their duty is – they know God’s law/will – they cannot say, “its in heaven” or “it’s too far away across the sea” (secret, unknown, etc.) – the word is in your heart and in your mouth = they have heard it read and have even memorized it and talked about it – but God is talking about the human tendency to say, “I didn’t know”.
” Surely, this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too hard for you…”
….nor is it too far away
that which is “not too hard” and NEAR is not “easy to obey” ?
COMMANDING you
quote :
If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God[a] that I am commanding you today, by loving the Lord your God, walking in his ways, and observing his commandments, decrees, and ordinances, then you shall live and become numerous, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to possess. 17 But if your heart turns away and you do not hear, but are led astray to bow down to other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you shall perish; you shall not live long in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live,
:::::::::::::
why TELL them to CHOOSE life wheN he knows they will NOT BE able to keep DIFFICULT commands?
“Anyone who reads Matthew 5:21-30 (about the roots of murder being anger and hatred; and the roots of adultery being mental lusting) and says “obeying the law is easy” is deceiving themselves.”
are you discussing matthews INTERPRETATION or the text of the torah?
”
Paul, you even admitted at one time, for a few days, that the disciples of praying 5 times a day and getting up early and fasting during Ramadan were too hard for you and left Islam for a few days and then came back. What do you think now? Do you really think those external rituals are harder than the internal sins that Jesus talks about in Matthew 5:21-30 and His law for perfection (Matthew 5:48) and loving one’s enemies (Matthew 5:38-48)?
My goodness, that (those external disciplines of ritual prayers and fasting) is NOTHING compared to the internal sinful thoughts, roots of external sins – jealousy, anger, hatred, pride, arrogance, lusts, selfishness, bitterness, greed, coveting, (the 10th commandment).”
answer this question
when your god GAVE the COMMANDS to the jewish people, did he know he gave them to people
who
1. lied
2. had jealousy
3.anger
4.hatred.
5.pride
6.arrogance
7.lust
8selfishness
DID god GIVE COMMANDS TO CONTROL these problems in OT days, yes or no?
as we all know, you being a christian SUFFER from the list above, but you tell your WICKED heart that you are CLEARED from DIVINE punishment.
did yhwh ever give the PERCEPTION you have to his children?
”
See Mark 7:20-23
And He was saying, “That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23 All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”
quote :
you really think a human being can love God perfectly at all times? (Deuteronomy 6:5-7)
Deuteronomy 5:29 – “Oh that they had such a heart in them that they would fear Me and obey Me . . . !!”
5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. 6 Keep these words that I am commanding you today in your heart. 7 Recite them to your children and talk about them when you are at home and when you are away, when you lie down and when you rise.
notice one thing here? NO MENTION of jesus . NOTHING. yhwh THINKS the heart CAN love him. there is no jesus needed according to yhwh. yhwh said his INSTRUCTIONS cure the LIST which you parroted . he did not say to swim in jesus’ BLOOD , he said your heart can do the job
yhwh confirms the heart can do his will
quote :
Moses the Mediator of God’s Will
22 These words the Lord spoke with a loud voice to your whole assembly at the mountain, out of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, and he added no more. He wrote them on two stone tablets, and gave them to me. 23 When you heard the voice out of the darkness, while the mountain was burning with fire, you approached me, all the heads of your tribes and your elders; 24 and you said, “Look, the Lord our God has shown us his glory and greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the fire. Today we have seen that God may speak to someone and the person may still live. 25 So now why should we die? For this great fire will consume us; if we hear the voice of the Lord our God any longer, we shall die. 26 For who is there of all flesh that has heard the voice of the living God speaking out of fire, as we have, and remained alive? 27 Go near, you yourself, and hear all that the Lord our God will say. Then tell us everything that the Lord our God tells you, and we will listen and do it.”
28 The Lord heard your words when you spoke to me, and the Lord said to me: “I have heard the words of this people, which they have spoken to you; they are right in all that they have spoken. 29 If only they had such a mind as this, to fear me and to keep all my commandments always, so that it might go well with them and with their children forever! 30 Go say to them, ‘Return to your tents.’ 31 But you, stand here by me, and I will tell you all the commandments, the statutes and the ordinances, that you shall teach them, so that they may do them in the land that I am giving them to possess.” 32 You must therefore be careful to do as the Lord your God has commanded you; you shall not turn to the right or to the left. 33 You must follow exactly the path that the Lord your God has commanded you, so that you may live, and that it may go well with you, and that you may live long in the land that you are to possess.
////////////////////
so let me ask you a few questions
1. how much do you love your neighbor? 100 % or 50 % ?
2. how much do you love your enemy ? 100 % or 20 % ?
people lust over girls
is he who tries to fight of temptations and tries his best to fight of feelings of lust better than a christian who says “all my lust has been atoned for, past , present and future, i don’t need to put effort in stopping my self from lusting since i am born with lustful heart”
yes or no ?
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Except Yahweh shows in the whole narrative of the Old Testament, that even when He gives Israel the law to obey and He expects them to obey, the narrative of the whole OT from Genesis to Malachi is that they ALWAYS fail to keep the law. God expects Israel (and us) to obey, but He also knows that we cannot obey the law perfectly. Jesus shows us that in a more explicit, clear, and amazing and new way in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5, 6, & 7 – that was Yahweh in the OT’s original intent that was implied in Deut. 6:4-7; 5:29; 10:16; 30:6, but you guys are missing that completely.
Just look at the sins of Noah (after the flood – the text is obvious trying to show that even after the flood and after destroying everyone else, those 8 people still have a sinful nature (original sin from Adam) within them, Ham (same issue, different specific sin, after the flood), Abraham, David, Solomon, Israel and the rebukes that the prophets constantly make at them because of their sins – especially Isaiah and Jeremiah and Ezekiel.
Even Yahweh (for the sake of argument, I am using this is the way you are assuming – you don’t see the connection with Jesus’ interpretation of the law in Matthew 5, Mark 7, Matthew 15) in the OT is trying to get them to see that it is heart issue – Genesis 6:5-6; 8:21; Deut. 5:29; 10:16; 30:6, Jeremiah chapters 3-4; 9:23-24; 17:10
In Ezekiel 36:26-27 & Jeremiah 31 – Yahweh says he will give them a new heart in the new covenant. The OT predicts the coming of the New Covenant – the teaching of Jesus the Messiah in the New Covenant.
Because you guys
1. are skipping the NT and going back to the OT; and
2. Also you isolate and atomize a few pet verses (like the way Paul Williams isolates “that you may obey it” from the rest of context in Deut. 30:11-14 ) for your own purposes without knowing the flow of the OT and the connection with the New Testament.
therefore, you miss the entire meaning of the whole Bible – the OT and the NT together as BOTH the inspired Word of God with a progressive revelation and consistent theology and story-line of historical truth.
You are missing one of the main points of the whole Bible, once you read it from start to finish and see the progressive flow of Old covenant to the New covenant. (from the law/sharia of Mosa flowing to the Injeel Al Masih)
من شریعه موسی حتی الانجیل عیسی المسیح
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”
Even Yahweh (for the sake of argument, I am using this is the way you are assuming – you don’t see the connection with Jesus’ interpretation of the law in Matthew 5, Mark 7, Matthew 15) in the OT is trying to get them to see that it is heart issue – Genesis 6:5-6; 8:21; Deut. 5:29; 10:16; 30:6, Jeremiah chapters 3-4; 9:23-24; 17:10″
i quote to you your list:
1. lied
2. had jealousy
3.anger
4.hatred.
5.pride
6.arrogance
7.lust
8selfishness
what did god say about the heart in the jewish bible :
“I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward each person according to their conduct, according to what their deeds deserve.”
14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
The heart of the righteous weighs its answers, but the mouth of the wicked gushes evil. 29 The LORD is far from the wicked, but he hears the prayer of the righteous.
2 Blessed are those who keep his statutes and seek him with all their heart—
your own bible DESTROYS you. it clearly says that people DID use the instructions set by god to fix up their hearts USING their hearts.
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“God expects Israel (and us) to obey, but He also knows that we cannot obey the law perfectly”
That has never been the case. Why would God punish them for something they cannot obey in the first place?
Why had God’s prophets, especally Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel been complaining and condemning children of Israel for breaking the law if the law is against their nature according to your prophet Paul? Why they had been calling them to repent so their sins get forgiven? There’s no meaning for that according to christianity, which reflects the falshood of your religion, Ken.
Fear Allaah(sw).
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“always fail to keep the law ”
Israel served the LORD throughout the lifetime of Joshua and of the elders who outlived him and who had experienced everything the LORD had done for Israel.
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”
Even Yahweh (for the sake of argument, I am using this is the way you are assuming – you don’t see the connection with Jesus’ interpretation of the law in Matthew 5, Mark 7, Matthew 15) in the OT is trying to get them to see that it is heart issue – Genesis 6:5-6; 8:21; Deut. 5:29; 10:16; 30:6, Jeremiah chapters 3-4; 9:23-24; 17:10″
i quote to you your list:
1. lied
2. had jealousy
3.anger
4.hatred.
5.pride
6.arrogance
7.lust
8selfishness
what did god say about the heart in the jewish bible :
“I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward each person according to their conduct, according to what their deeds deserve.”
14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
The heart of the righteous weighs its answers, but the mouth of the wicked gushes evil. 29 The LORD is far from the wicked, but he hears the prayer of the righteous.
2 Blessed are those who keep his statutes and seek him with all their heart—
your own bible DESTROYS you. it clearly says that people DID use the instructions set by god to fix up their hearts USING their hearts.
tell me , if you think you have a new heart , how come you are still experiencing the LIST above? and why are you mentioning a LIST , when you believe all the crap you think of has been CLEARED and atoned for?
who are you to tell about lust and everything when you believe that all your filthy thoughts have been CLEARED and you are GUARANTEED reward ?
,,
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i quote to you your list:
1. lied
2. had jealousy
3.anger
4.hatred.
5.pride
6.arrogance
7.lust
8selfishness
what did god say about the heart in the jewish bible :
“I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward each person according to their conduct, according to what their deeds deserve.”
14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
The heart of the righteous weighs its answers, but the mouth of the wicked gushes evil. 29 The LORD is far from the wicked, but he hears the prayer of the righteous.
2 Blessed are those who keep his statutes and seek him with all their heart—
your own bible DESTROYS you. it clearly says that people DID use the instructions set by god to fix up their hearts USING their hearts.
tell me , if you think you have a new heart , how come you are still experiencing the LIST above? and why are you mentioning a LIST , when you believe all the crap you think of has been CLEARED and atoned for?
who are you to tell about lust and everything when you believe that all your filthy thoughts have been CLEARED and you are GUARANTEED reward ?
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nope; “oh that they had such a heart” Deut. 5:29
and
“I will take away your heart of stone and give you a new heart, a new spirit” (Ezekiel 36:26-27) and
the new covenant in Jeremiah 31
means that Yahweh knows they cannot obey the law and that they need a new heart.
That’s what Jesus meant when He rebuked Nicodemus for not understanding the necessity of being born again by the Holy Spirit. John 3:1-10
“you are the teacher of Israel and you don’t understand these things?” John 3:10 (referring back to Ezekiel 36:26-27)
you all are getting the Old Testament all wrong.
The law convicts you and shows you that you are a sinner and that you cannot keep the law. (like a mirror)
only God’s grace in faith in Christ and His atonement and resurrection and the Holy Spirit’s power can give the purity and power over sin. (like soap)
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” is NOTHING compared to the internal sinful thoughts, roots of external sins – jealousy, anger, hatred, pride, arrogance, lusts, selfishness, bitterness, greed, coveting, (the 10th commandment).””
here is the jewish response to your problems which you experience :
The Church imagines a god with a foreshortened arm, a god with no strength. He is a god bound in rules and either unable or unwilling to forgive unless suffering is inflicted upon someone, even the innocent. In Ezekiel 33:10, the people have said: “Our transgressions and our sins weigh upon us, and we waste away because of them; how then can we live?” The Church echoes this question. It is the question on the lips of every missionary. But the answer of the Church does not match that of Ezekiel. The answer of the Church does not match that of HaShem. Ezekiel continues: “Say to them, ‘As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn back from their ways and live.’” The Church might acknowledge that HaShem has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but then it responds that He takes pleasure in the death of the righteous. But this is not what Ezekiel says. Ezekiel says that HaShem wishes that we would turn away from our ways. HaShem says of those that turn back to Him: “None of the sins that they have committed shall be remembered against them; they have done what is lawful and right, they shall surely live” (Ez. 33:16). No one need die for the sins of another; one need only turn back to HaShem.
The Church will say that this is to make light of God’s righteousness. They will say that someone must pay the penalty for sin, if not the sinner then someone. In this, they echo what the people say in Ezekiel: “The way of the Lord is not just…” (Ezekiel 33:17). It does not seem right to them that HaShem would ‘just’ forgive a person. But HaShem’s response is that “it is their own way that is not just” (Ezekiel 33:17). And He reiterates that He desires the wicked to repent: “And when the wicked turn from their wickedness, and do what is lawful and right, they shall live by it” (Ez. 33:19).
Sadly, the Church often portrays this teaching as trusting in one’s own righteousness. But this is not the case at all. Indeed, this is trust in the promise of HaShem, trust in His love and in His goodness and in His mercy. This is the God that assured Moses of His mercy: “…a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for the thousandth generation” (Ex. 34:7). We can be assured of His kindness extended toward us. So assured can we be that we know that if he punishes us, it is for our good, an act of kindness: “My child, do not despise the Lord’s discipline or be weary of his reproof, for the Lord reproves the one he loves, as a father the son in whom he delights” (Prov. 3:11-12). Such punishments are a call to return to Him, where we are assured of His forgiveness, mercy, and generosity.
One of the blessings of God is the conscience. It serves to motivate one to review his actions, to see if he has not violated God’s precepts, to see if he has not ill-used another. Guilt, when used properly, is a blessing, urging the sinner to return to HaShem. But guilt can be a burden to those that do not properly heed it. The guilty can become hopeless, feeling he may never be right with God, as those in Ezekiel. The Church compounds this guilt by telling its adherents that they are so bad that God could never forgive them. Not only that, an innocent man needed to be terribly shamed, beaten, and murdered on their behalf. This can create in incredibly over-powering guilt in people, creating in them the sense that they are worthless.
All this leads to the mistake of putting their trust in a man rather than in HaShem. Because they have been told that HaShem could never tolerate them, He feels forever far away. Moreover, He is an object of fear, because He would destroy them. Jesus on the other hand, rather than wanting to destroy them, was willing to suffer and die for them. His love appears to the Christian to be so much greater than the love of God. God was willing to send someone else to die. Jesus was willing to actually do the dying.
And so his trust and affection is given to a man.
All the while, he does not know that HaShem did not need someone to die for Him. He does not know that HaShem loves him enough to forgive him if he will but make amends and return to HaShem. He does not know that his trust in a man is misplaced, but trust in HaShem can never be misplaced. HaShem does not wish his destruction. Nor is HaShem powerless to forgive those that have violated His Torah.
You are right to put your trust in HaShem.
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“nope; “oh that they had such a heart” Deut. 5:29
and
“I will take away your heart of stone and give you a new heart, a new spirit” (Ezekiel 36:26-27) and
the new covenant in Jeremiah 31
means that Yahweh knows they cannot obey the law and that they need a new heart.”
what has any of this got to do with the people who are declared righteous and who
kept the law
Israel served the LORD throughout the lifetime of Joshua and of the elders who outlived him and who had experienced everything the LORD had done for Israel.
your bible DEMOLISHES you again :
9In the twentieth year of Jeroboam king of Israel, Asa became king of Judah, 10and he reigned in Jerusalem forty-one years. His grandmother’s name was Maakah daughter of Abishalom.
11Asa did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, as his father David had done. 12He expelled the male shrine prostitutes from the land and got rid of all the idols his ancestors had made. 13He even deposed his grandmother Maakah from her position as queen mother, because she had made a repulsive image for the worship of Asherah. Asa cut it down and burned it in the Kidron Valley. 14Although he did not remove the high places, Asa’s heart was fully committed to the Lord all his life. 15He brought into the temple of the Lord the silver and gold and the articles that he and his father had dedicated.
16There was war between Asa and Baasha king of Israel throughout their reigns. 17Baasha king of Israel went up against Judah and fortified Ramah to prevent anyone from leaving or entering the territory of Asa king of Judah.
18Asa then took all the silver and gold that was left in the treasuries of the Lord’s temple and of his own palace. He entrusted it to his officials and sent them to Ben-Hadad son of Tabrimmon, the son of Hezion, the king of Aram, who was ruling in Damascus. 19“Let there be a treaty between me and you,” he said, “as there was between my father and your father. See, I am sending you a gift of silver and gold. Now break your treaty with Baasha king of Israel so he will withdraw from me.”
20Ben-Hadad agreed with King Asa and sent the commanders of his forces against the towns of Israel. He conquered Ijon, Dan, Abel Beth Maakah and all Kinnereth in addition to Naphtali. 21When Baasha heard this, he stopped building Ramah and withdrew to Tirzah. 22Then King Asa issued an order to all Judah—no one was exempt—and they carried away from Ramah the stones and timber Baasha had been using there. With them King Asa built up Geba in Benjamin, and also Mizpah.
23As for all the other events of Asa’s reign, all his achievements, all he did and the cities he built, are they not written in the book of the annals of the kings of Judah? In his old age, however, his feet became diseased. 24Then Asa rested with his ancestors and was buried with them in the city of his father David. And Jehoshaphat his son succeeded him as king
noah is so RIGHTEOUS he can save himself IN ANY TROUBLE
Or if I bring a sword against that country and say
guess who saves himself from this sword?
guess who doesnt need jesus or a NEW HEART?
Or if I send a plague into that land and pour out my wrath on it through bloodshed
WHO doesnt need a new heart to save himself?
yhwh says
19“Or if I send a plague into that land and pour out my wrath on it through bloodshed, killing its people and their animals, 20as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, even if Noah, Daniel and Job were in it, they could save neither son nor daughter. They would save only themselves by their righteousness.
you got DEMOLISHED again by your own bible.
quote :
That’s what Jesus meant when He rebuked Nicodemus for not understanding the necessity of being born again by the Holy Spirit. John 3:1-10
“you are the teacher of Israel and you don’t understand these things?” John 3:10 (referring back to Ezekiel 36:26-27)
you all are getting the Old Testament all wrong.
The law convicts you and shows you that you are a sinner and that you cannot keep the law. (like a mirror)
only God’s grace in faith in Christ and His atonement and resurrection and the Holy Spirit’s power can give the purity and power over sin. (like soap)
end quote
your own bible just throughly demolished you on this issue. since you are in new covenant and you think you have a new heart, how come your heart is filled in sin? do you think that maybe you need to go back doing animal sacrifices?
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“The law convicts you and shows you that you are a sinner and that you cannot keep the law. (like a mirror)
only God’s grace in faith in Christ and His atonement and resurrection and the Holy Spirit’s power can give the purity and power over sin. (like soap)”
answer this question
when your god GAVE the COMMANDS to the jewish people, did he know he gave them to people
who
1. lied
2. had jealousy
3.anger
4.hatred.
5.pride
6.arrogance
7.lust
8selfishness
DID god GIVE COMMANDS TO CONTROL these problems in OT days, yes or no?
as we all know, you being a christian SUFFER from the list above, but you tell your WICKED heart that you are CLEARED from DIVINE punishment.
did yhwh ever give the PERCEPTION you have to his children?
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is having passing thought adultery or is dwelling upon thought adultery? If yhwh thought dwelling upon thought is adultery ,why did he let Jews get away with putting adultery on animal and letting it die in wilderness? Adultery = execution, yet yhwh lets animal take the punishment? So hundreds of adulterous thought ,one can get away with simply by killing an animal.
so it seems that yhwh used to take adultery lightly in those days.
Your god told you to pluck your eye out, so are you blind yet?
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