The Son is the Father. Not. Sort of.

 

Q: Is the Father Jesus?

A: Yes.

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Categories: Islam

37 replies

  1. when does yhwh in torah say he is a SHARED being?
    when does he ever refer to himself as a SHARED thing?

    what does it mean ONE existence in 3 EXISTENCES?

    what does this mean? is it 3 gods? is it 33 % per each ?

    is it 3 single oneness like goats oneness’s?

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  2. each person is not the other person and each person has experiential knowledge of the center god which logically means yhwh is not the other yhwh or yhwh who has full experiential feeling of center god is not yhwh who also has full experiential feeling of center god

    you worship 3 gods.

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    • is jesus another person? is he one person?

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    • But they’re both God… cool story 👍you worship a genus of three species 😂

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    • Ken please preach to this born again nice guy. Probably he can cook you some nice food too.

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    • abu

      “But they’re both God”

      Yes.

      “you worship a genus of three species”

      No.

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    • Joel
      September 29, 2017 • 5:29 pm
      abu

      “But they’re both God”

      Yes.

      “you worship a genus of three species”

      No

      I say;
      That is idolatry to think “both” are God. God is One, Only and Alone. Both means 2 things. That is why Joel insists that goat which are MANY ones is the same as God who is ONLY ONE and ALONE, forgetting that one many is different from one that is not many.

      I understand why you keep insisting goat or persons(people) that are MANY is the same as ONE God because you worship persons who are “both” Gods.

      The Bible is against worshiping God who is “both” because Bible said God is one only and alone and nothing else. No one else.You add someone else to the one God because you think goat, cow, monkey, snake is like God and is God by worshiping Jesus Christ thinking he is one like God because goat is like God.

      Joel, you are a polytheist and an idol worshiper by worshiping Jesus a man thinking he is the same like God. It shows by your reasoning.

      Thanks.

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  3. Is the father the son? Or the son the father?
    What if the son becomes a father one day?
    Would that make the father the grandfather?
    What if the father decided to have more sons?
    And why stop at sons and not get daughters ?

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    • Because the Holy Scriptures limit the doctrine of the Trinity to three persons.
      Matthew 28:19
      2 Cor. 13:14

      the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit

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    • But Matthew does not teach the doctrine of the Trinity. You are committing the sin of anachronism.

      Neither does Paul:

      NT Professor Paula Fredriksen: Paul was NOT a Trinitarian

      DH Can you speak to the problem of anachronism and its effect on understanding Paul?

      PF I’m a historian, and the most grave “original sin” for a historian is anachronism. What that means is that you lift something out of its historical context and put it in a different historical context, and so misinterpret it. If in addition we think of Paul as an orthodox Christian, we will only misinterpret him that much more. He’s living in a period where he’s not thinking in a Trinitarian manner. The idea of the Trinity hasn’t been conceived yet. His letters will have Jesus Christ in them; they will have God the Father in them; he will talk about the Spirit of God. Those are the textual origins that will be used to formulate the doctrine of the Trinity, but Paul’s not thinking in a Trinitarian way.

      People reading Paul assume that he’s hostile to Judaism because he’s the “inventor” of Christianity. In fact, he’s still imagining himself as a Jew and he’s presenting Christianity in continuity with Judaism. The fact that Paul is such a huge figure for Christianity makes it almost impossible for us not to interpret him anachronistically when we look at him, because it’s so important that his message speak immediately to modern Christianity. If we allow ourselves to see how much his message actually cohered with first-century Judaism, then we have to relinquish an immediate connection between him and us, between this ancient Jewish messianic movement and the modern church. [Source]

      Liked by 1 person

    • The book of revelation extends the trinity by adding 7 more spirits into the mix.
      And let us not forget two Jesuses; the flesh and blood human Jesus and divine pre incarnation Jesus.

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    • “Because the Holy Scriptures limit the doctrine of the Trinity to three persons.
      Matthew 28:19
      2 Cor. 13:14

      the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit”

      thats 3 pagan gods

      3 identities who chat with each other, who have the EXPERIENTIAL knowledge of the CENTER god. you worship 3 individual pagan gods.

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  4. 2 Cor. 13:14 and Ephesians 1:3-14 and Ephesians 4:4-6 proves that you and the liberal scholar Paul Fredrickson are wrong.

    Those are the textual origins that will be used to formulate the doctrine of the Trinity, but Paul’s not thinking in a Trinitarian way.

    the first part is correct, but the second part is her assumption – she does not know how Paul is thinking. Can she see into his mind and motives and heart?

    It is obvious from Ephesians 1:3-14 and other passages that Paul is thinking in a Trinitarian way.

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    • you have proven anything – just stringing references together is lazy and irrelevant

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    • the apostle Paul lists the 3 persons. (2 Cor. 13:14; Ephesians 1:3-14; 4:4-6; I Cor. 12:4-6 parallel of “same Spirit”, “same Lord”, “same God”.

      Other places the apostle Paul says “there is only One God”. 1 Cor. 8:6 and 1 Timothy 2:5

      He taught the Deity of Christ – Philippians 2:5-8; Romans 9:5

      He taught the Deity of the Spirit – 2 Corinthians 3:16-18; Romans 8:9-11

      Putting them all together in a consistent way results in the doctrine of the Trinity:
      One God in three persons.

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    • Paula Fredricken, “I’m a historian, and the most grave “original sin” for a historian is anachronism.”

      She would certainly destroy Islam and the Qur’an, the most anachronistic religion of all, that forces its 600 year old late theology back into the parts of NT and OT that they pick and choose, to fit their own theology and agenda.

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    • No he did not teach Jesus was God. That’s the sin of anachronism again.

      ‘But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the husband is the head of his wife, and God is the head of Christ.’

      Jesus has a God.

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    • Corinthians 15:27-28

      For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

      Paul declares that God put everything under Christ, except God himself. Instead God rules all things through Christ. (remember: “through him all things were made.”)

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    • J. I. Packer, Knowing God (1973). (Packer is probably the best-known living evangelical theologian, and is sometimes called “the gate-keeper of evangelicalism.”)
      “Part of the revealed mystery of the Godhead is that the three persons stand in a fixed relation to each other….It is the nature of the second person of the Trinity to acknowledge the authority and submit to the good pleasure of the first. That is why He declares Himself to be the Son, and the first person to be His Father. Though co-equal with the Father in eternity, power, and glory, it is natural to Him to play the Son’s part, and find all His joy in doing His Father’s will, just as it is natural to the first person of the Trinity to plan and initiate the works of the Godhead and natural to the third person to proceed from the Father and the Son to do their joint bidding. Thus the obedience of the God-man to the Father while He was on earth was not a new relationship occasioned by the incarnation, but the continuation in time of the eternal relationship between the Son and the Father in heaven.” Knowing God (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1973), 54-55.

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    • the Son is always the Son and in a fixed relationship to the Father as the Father. See Packer’s quote. The Son submits to the Father. That is about His role and function, not about His nature/essence/character/nature.

      the doctrine of the Trinity is “One God in essence, three in person.”

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  5. God the Father is the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ; yes; 1 Cor. 11:3, yes, that is not a problem.

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    • thats right Jesus has a God:

      ‘Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.’

      Ephesians 1:3

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  6. calling the Father “God” is not a problem. Furthermore, that text is an extended Trinitarian text – expounding on the work of the Father in election and predestination (verses 4-5), the work of the Son in redemption through His blood of the atonement at the cross (verse 7), and the work of the Holy Spirit in sealing believers (verses 13-14)

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    • ken, few questions

      1. why did yhwh not tell the jews to TURN the sword on their children after the hebrews KILLED of non-jewish children?

      2. the stories from the torah which REACHED jesus were HUNDREDS of years later. how did jesus, jeremiah and amos know what the original torah said? how do you ?

      3. do you AGREE that the torah is ACCURATELY narrating about moses, solomon, jeremiah and others or is it possible rabbis have ADDED their EXPLANATIONS/interpretations to the torah and passed it on BEFORE it god WRITTEN?

      4. jesus’ “miracles” . how do you verify these today? how do you know he was born of a virgin? you just have 2 TEXTS which say that a god which has oneness like a goat impregnated an unknwon woman somewhere in an UNKNOWN place.

      5. many of the miracles attributed to jesus could be SOURCED to biblical TEXTS. scholars note VERBATIM parallels.

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    • Some of your questions are not intelligible.
      None of them are not sincere, as evidenced by your cursing and calling me names – which demonstrates your character. At times you display sinful anger and hatred.
      Shame on you.

      The texts are verified by diligent study and holding to inerrancy. We are honest about our textual variants. I don’t trust liberal scholars and skeptics who use anti-supernatural presupossitions to judge God.

      God judges them and you. You nor them (liberal scholars) have any ground to try and judge God or His word.

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    • “Some of your questions are not intelligible.
      None of them are not sincere, as evidenced by your cursing and calling me names – which demonstrates your character. At times you display sinful anger and hatred.
      Shame on you.

      The texts are verified by diligent study and holding to inerrancy. We are honest about our textual variants. I don’t trust liberal scholars and skeptics who use anti-supernatural presupossitions to judge God.

      God judges them and you. You nor them (liberal scholars) have any ground to try and judge God or His word.”

      NONE OF YOUR bullshit is addressing the problem ken temple. you know that you would BRUISE jesus worse than yhwh bruised him had you APPLIED the same skepticism you apply on the quran on the “word became flesh”

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    • see again, you confirm your evil and malicious nature and character. You give a bad witness to Islam.

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  7. “the Son is always the Son and in a fixed relationship to the Father as the Father. See Packer’s quote. The Son submits to the Father. That is about His role and function, not about His nature/essence/character/nature.

    the doctrine of the Trinity is “One God in essence, three in person.”

    so you are saying there are somethings the father CANNOT do that the son can, which clearly means two DIFFERENT pagan gods. what is worse is that each pagan god has FULL experience of what it is to be god WHILE it is PERFORMING a task

    why aren’t you a polytheist?

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    • Because there is only One God.
      Mark 12:29

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    • And Jesus prayed to him and felt abandoned by Him

      Mark 15:34

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    • Because as the Son, and when He was on earth in a humbled state (Philipians 2:5-8), of course he prayed to the Father. Why do you think that is problem? Did you ever listen when they explained these things, like the incarnation and the Trinity, in the evangelical church you used to go to? Apparently you never took the time to understand the doctrines from our own historical 2000 year old tradition.

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    • “Because there is only One God.”

      you have 3 conscious BEINGS which EXIST WITH EACH other and DO things the OTHER does not do.

      your “one god” cannot mean 3 because ONE in NO LANGUAGE means 3

      you can have 3 parts which make up 1 . yOU CAN HAVE 3 things which exist in one BOX.

      but you can NEVER CHANGE one into 3

      since each person is FULLY having EXPERIENTIAL FEELINGS of the “one god” and is A DIFFERENT person, then you CLEARLY WORSHIP TRIPLETS

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    • Ken Temple
      September 29, 2017 • 7:08 pm
      Because as the Son, and when He was on earth in a humbled state (Philipians 2:5-8), of course he prayed to the Father. Why do you think that is problem? Did you ever listen when they explained these things, like the incarnation and the Trinity, in the evangelical church you used to go to? Apparently you never took the time to understand the doctrines from our own historical 2000 year old tradition

      I say;
      One God is on earth praying to another God in heaven. We have to Gods here and the Bible is against worshiping 2 Gods. That is what some polytheist and idol worshipers believe. They believe the Gods they worship on earth is a person(Sai Baba,HaileSelaissie) or cow, elephant, monkey etc. They will justify their worship of these things(creatures) and insist they are one God.

      Thanks.

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    • Correction.

      I mean “we have 2 Gods here” not “we have to Gods….”.

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  8. LOL

    there “Intellect” goes again with the Haile Selassie and Sai Baba mantra.

    hillarious

    I can just type something and you will like a robot repeat that mantra.

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  9. “see again, you confirm your evil and malicious nature and character. You give a bad witness to Islam.”

    ken, why are you allowed to abuse blogging theology with your christian lies. your lying criminal and evil nature represents christianity.
    you give good witness to christianity.

    Like

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