Indonesia does not need a bloody go between. Indonesia does not need to know that sins get transferred and poured on someone else. Indonesia should know that God does not consider them “menstrual rags” “shit” “born in sin” “Spiritual trash” “evil”
Indonesia needs to know that God does not forgive through human sacrifice, but He himself forgives.
He Himself. no need for a pagan meat/flesh ritual. no need for the jews to chant isaiah 53 while NAILING jesus .
God does NOT NEED jesus TO forgive. Daniel did not NEED jesus to SEEK forgiveness.
No Ot prophet needed jesus to SEEK Gods forgiveness.
No ot prophet knew about human sacrifice as a requirement to SEEK the all hearing and all knowing ONE.
God does not wet his face with blood. Blood was CREATED.
In the not so distant past, whenever Christians determined to convert native peoples to the “eternal, incarnate, crucified risen Christ Lord” they ended up torturing, enslaving, slaughtering, and killing all of the natives, while stealing their resources……kinda like today.
Christians who see the look on the face of the Indonesian man in the photo imagine him to be saying, “Please save me…. and share the Gospel of Christ.”
When in reality (when one takes off the Jeezus filters) he is actually saying, “Please spare me…keep your Gospel and just leave us alone!”
Judging from what i’ve seen, they can easily convert uneducated muslims who are not well versed about their own religion and christianity as well… This is why Muslims are commanded to seek knowledge and this same commandment is taken lightly by many muslims including me as well and the day i realised it’s importance was when i nearly converted to Christianity 3 years ago….
“Judging from what i’ve seen, they can easily convert uneducated muslims who are not well versed about their own religion and christianity as well… This is why Muslims are commanded to seek knowledge and this same commandment is taken lightly by many muslims including me as well and the day i realised it’s importance was when i nearly converted to Christianity 3 years ago….”
the biggest question a christian has failed to answer is “how do you KILL a god?”
if God has been creating FLESH for thousands of years, then HOW do you KILL a god?
how do you TAKE the LIFE away from a god?
God is “spirit” HOW DO YOU kill a spirit ?
you don’t really need to tell the Indonesians to study islam deeply, just a few questions are enough to send the evangelist into coma
Shaad,
“…..they can easily convert uneducated muslims who are not well versed about their own religion and christianity as well… This is why Muslims are commanded to seek knowledge.”
You are absolutely right about this, and it is a good reason to seek ACCURATE knowledge about religion. Knowledge and education are key.
Alhamdullah, you quickly came to your senses before converting to Christianity!! We are happy that you remain as our brother in Islam!.
@ Paulus,
— “Why is Islamic dawah ok but Christian evangelism not ok?”
As Eric Bin Kisam noted below, the Islamic Dawah in Indonesia is mostly Muslim Da’ees preaching and teaching Muslim people in the fundamentals of their own faith. This is completely different than Christian Missionaries, leaving their homes, traveling to foreign countries, and attempting to undermine, subvert, or derail the religious and cultural teachings of other peoples in an effort to supplant them with a false Christian belief.
One of the worst tricks I have seen from Christian Missionaries in my city, is that they know that they cannot convert many Muslims from the older generation, so instead, they target the children. They come to a home and act as if they are there as friends, bringing gifts, to help immigrants who are often desperate and in need. All the while, they are working to subvert the children by undermining everything that their parents are teaching them about their Islam, their cultural and religious, beliefs, practices. These sick Christians have no care for how this can devastate and divide and even destroy a family forever. All they care about is scoring cosmic points by “winning young souls for Christ.”
You don’t see Muslim Da’ees walking around in western countries knocking on peoples doors, and arrogantly pushing their teachings on others. Nor do you see Muslims stealthily going into the homes of Christian families trying to undermine the teachings of Christian parents and subverting their children, NO. But this is what we see time and again from Christian Missionaries in relation to Muslim people.
The whole approach of Islamic Dawah, is completely different, and more respectful of individual human differences than “The Borg” approach of Christian Missionaries…..”YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED!” (Star Trek reference!)
If Christians want to evangelize among Christians more power to them. But leave everyone else alone, and stop pushing your beliefs on others.
The fact that Indonesia is now a majority Muslim nation is testament that Muslims clearly didn’t just do their dawah amongst their own people. I’ve met and interacted with many Muslims who were just as evangelical as Christians, both here in Australia and while I lived in Indonesia. I remember a conversation with one daee who had moved to the city I was in specifically for dawah, so sorry, I simply cannot believe your theories.
You clearly have a disdain for Christians. Why is that? If Islam is true and Allah is in control, then why would you have any problem with Muslims talking with Christians.
Your overreaction on this demonstrates that you aren’t very confident in your faith.
@ Paulus,
Again, the difference is in the approach. Christian Missionaries engaged in evangelism constantly indulge in lies, deceit, subterfuge, dishonesty, misinformation, verbal gymnastics, emotional ploys, false “miracles,” made up stories, and any other underhanded approach that they deem necessary in order to coerce and push their religion onto people in order to “win souls for Christ.”
While, in contrast, Muslim Dawah (properly discharged) is more respectful of the individual intellect and is a more open and honest dialogue, and educational question and answer process, with anyone who first displays and communicates an interest in learning about Islam.
The only disdain I have is for dishonest Christian Missionaries who use subterfuge, lies, and deception in order to undermine the faith and cultures of other peoples. I have no problem with Christians who are respectful of other faith traditions, and who prefer to practice their faith peacefully without pushing it on others.
I am highly confident in Islamic belief and faith…though I worry about unwary Muslims who are not properly educated in their own faith, being led astray by Christian myth and falsehoods.
Anthropologists have notes for decades that Islam is only a facade in Indonesia. The deep traditional roots of superstition are what govern the worldview of most people there. For example, Indonesians regularly visit the tombs of dead religious leaders for blessings.
Seeking the “blessings” of the dead especially religious clerics is not an alien concept in “Islam”, infact they don’t only ask for blessings from the dead but they also request for help…well as far as i know this is not allowed according to mainstream sunnis BUT it is very common among “sunni sufis” especially in India and the surrounding regions, though sunnis and salafis don’t agree with them, the sufis tend to use ISLAMIC SCRIPTURES to defend what they are doing…it’s kinda like how protestants view catholics…visiting tombs is also common among Shia muslims especially in Iran, among the most popular ones is the Tomb of Imam Reza and shias often ask Reza for help… There are other weird practices that sufis tend to do such as the use of amulets, weird “praying” habits which looks similar to hindus, they also heavily decorate mosques, they celebrate birthdays of Great Saints and the list goes on…i studied in one of their madrassas as a kid and i can tell you for sure that they believe what they are doing is completely Islamic…i’m not saying this to disagree with you, i’m just stating the facts because i’ve been surrounded by these kind of people all my life…i forgot to mention that they accuse everyone who disagree with their practices as “Wahabbis”, “heretics”…
That’s during dutch colonial times, nowadays thousands upon thousands of tireless Islamic da’ees are teaching ordinary Indonesians to live according to true Islamic principles, more and more Indonesian muslims live according to God’s law. Alas it is the christians of Indonesia who are losing to non-belief, secularism and materialism.
No, the teachers/preachers are individual efforts (merely seeking the pleasure of Allah) who came from all sort of professional background. Most likely they adhere to traditionalist Sunni Islam following the Shafi’i madhab: Nahdatul Ulama movement or the non-mazhabiah Muhammadiyah movement.
Very recently the Salafi movement are also very active in reaching out to muslims with their sophisticated network of media and education centres, they are growing fast.
I agree with Eric, that Islam may have been weak, or partially understood and mixed with ancient tribal beliefs etc. in the colonial past. But in the modern era, with the benefit of internet, ease of travel, and media outlets reaching wide areas, information is much more easily disseminated than it was in previous times. Therefore accurate religious knowledge of Islam is more accessible in the past. With this in combination with the Da’ees that Eric mentioned, I think many traditional Muslim nations, and ethnic groups (not just Indonesians) are getting back to basic teachings and purifying their Islam from any innovations or remnants of non-Islamic cultural practices. This is a very good thing that is happening, as it increases the commonalities between Muslims worldwide, and encourages unity amongst the Ummah. This focus on returning to basic teachings, and purification of the deen through the promoting accurate religious knowledge about Islam also acts as a “firewall” to any outside effect from Christian Missionaries.
Blogging Theology 
Indonesia does not need a bloody go between. Indonesia does not need to know that sins get transferred and poured on someone else. Indonesia should know that God does not consider them “menstrual rags” “shit” “born in sin” “Spiritual trash” “evil”
Indonesia needs to know that God does not forgive through human sacrifice, but He himself forgives.
He Himself. no need for a pagan meat/flesh ritual. no need for the jews to chant isaiah 53 while NAILING jesus .
God does NOT NEED jesus TO forgive. Daniel did not NEED jesus to SEEK forgiveness.
No Ot prophet needed jesus to SEEK Gods forgiveness.
No ot prophet knew about human sacrifice as a requirement to SEEK the all hearing and all knowing ONE.
God does not wet his face with blood. Blood was CREATED.
LikeLiked by 6 people
and I thought this missionary trend was over since the 80s…
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What a perfect example of “The White Man’s Burden” to civilize and convert the dark skinned “heathen savages” of the world.
The arrogant, pretentious, condescending self-righteousness of Christian Missionaries is alive and well, and seems to know no bounds!
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exactly!
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It’s a multi billion export industry
LikeLiked by 1 person
In the not so distant past, whenever Christians determined to convert native peoples to the “eternal, incarnate, crucified risen Christ Lord” they ended up torturing, enslaving, slaughtering, and killing all of the natives, while stealing their resources……kinda like today.
Christians who see the look on the face of the Indonesian man in the photo imagine him to be saying, “Please save me…. and share the Gospel of Christ.”
When in reality (when one takes off the Jeezus filters) he is actually saying, “Please spare me…keep your Gospel and just leave us alone!”
LikeLiked by 3 people
Judging from what i’ve seen, they can easily convert uneducated muslims who are not well versed about their own religion and christianity as well… This is why Muslims are commanded to seek knowledge and this same commandment is taken lightly by many muslims including me as well and the day i realised it’s importance was when i nearly converted to Christianity 3 years ago….
LikeLiked by 2 people
Why is Islamic dawah ok but Christian evangelism not ok?
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Strange. I didn’t known Islam was born in Indo. Oh wait, it wasn’t. Some Muslim missionary went there to convert the “savages”
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“Judging from what i’ve seen, they can easily convert uneducated muslims who are not well versed about their own religion and christianity as well… This is why Muslims are commanded to seek knowledge and this same commandment is taken lightly by many muslims including me as well and the day i realised it’s importance was when i nearly converted to Christianity 3 years ago….”
the biggest question a christian has failed to answer is “how do you KILL a god?”
if God has been creating FLESH for thousands of years, then HOW do you KILL a god?
how do you TAKE the LIFE away from a god?
God is “spirit” HOW DO YOU kill a spirit ?
you don’t really need to tell the Indonesians to study islam deeply, just a few questions are enough to send the evangelist into coma
LikeLiked by 1 person
“just a few questions are enough to send the evangelist into coma”
This part made me giggle…
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Shaad,
“…..they can easily convert uneducated muslims who are not well versed about their own religion and christianity as well… This is why Muslims are commanded to seek knowledge.”
You are absolutely right about this, and it is a good reason to seek ACCURATE knowledge about religion. Knowledge and education are key.
Alhamdullah, you quickly came to your senses before converting to Christianity!! We are happy that you remain as our brother in Islam!.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Ibn Issam, Thanks mate…
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@ Paulus,
— “Why is Islamic dawah ok but Christian evangelism not ok?”
As Eric Bin Kisam noted below, the Islamic Dawah in Indonesia is mostly Muslim Da’ees preaching and teaching Muslim people in the fundamentals of their own faith. This is completely different than Christian Missionaries, leaving their homes, traveling to foreign countries, and attempting to undermine, subvert, or derail the religious and cultural teachings of other peoples in an effort to supplant them with a false Christian belief.
One of the worst tricks I have seen from Christian Missionaries in my city, is that they know that they cannot convert many Muslims from the older generation, so instead, they target the children. They come to a home and act as if they are there as friends, bringing gifts, to help immigrants who are often desperate and in need. All the while, they are working to subvert the children by undermining everything that their parents are teaching them about their Islam, their cultural and religious, beliefs, practices. These sick Christians have no care for how this can devastate and divide and even destroy a family forever. All they care about is scoring cosmic points by “winning young souls for Christ.”
You don’t see Muslim Da’ees walking around in western countries knocking on peoples doors, and arrogantly pushing their teachings on others. Nor do you see Muslims stealthily going into the homes of Christian families trying to undermine the teachings of Christian parents and subverting their children, NO. But this is what we see time and again from Christian Missionaries in relation to Muslim people.
The whole approach of Islamic Dawah, is completely different, and more respectful of individual human differences than “The Borg” approach of Christian Missionaries…..”YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED!” (Star Trek reference!)
If Christians want to evangelize among Christians more power to them. But leave everyone else alone, and stop pushing your beliefs on others.
LikeLike
Ibn issam.
The fact that Indonesia is now a majority Muslim nation is testament that Muslims clearly didn’t just do their dawah amongst their own people. I’ve met and interacted with many Muslims who were just as evangelical as Christians, both here in Australia and while I lived in Indonesia. I remember a conversation with one daee who had moved to the city I was in specifically for dawah, so sorry, I simply cannot believe your theories.
You clearly have a disdain for Christians. Why is that? If Islam is true and Allah is in control, then why would you have any problem with Muslims talking with Christians.
Your overreaction on this demonstrates that you aren’t very confident in your faith.
LikeLike
@ Paulus,
Again, the difference is in the approach. Christian Missionaries engaged in evangelism constantly indulge in lies, deceit, subterfuge, dishonesty, misinformation, verbal gymnastics, emotional ploys, false “miracles,” made up stories, and any other underhanded approach that they deem necessary in order to coerce and push their religion onto people in order to “win souls for Christ.”
While, in contrast, Muslim Dawah (properly discharged) is more respectful of the individual intellect and is a more open and honest dialogue, and educational question and answer process, with anyone who first displays and communicates an interest in learning about Islam.
The only disdain I have is for dishonest Christian Missionaries who use subterfuge, lies, and deception in order to undermine the faith and cultures of other peoples. I have no problem with Christians who are respectful of other faith traditions, and who prefer to practice their faith peacefully without pushing it on others.
I am highly confident in Islamic belief and faith…though I worry about unwary Muslims who are not properly educated in their own faith, being led astray by Christian myth and falsehoods.
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Pied piper
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Burhannuddin1
I always enjoy your short “comic relief” comments!!
LikeLiked by 1 person
Anthropologists have notes for decades that Islam is only a facade in Indonesia. The deep traditional roots of superstition are what govern the worldview of most people there. For example, Indonesians regularly visit the tombs of dead religious leaders for blessings.
LikeLike
Seeking the “blessings” of the dead especially religious clerics is not an alien concept in “Islam”, infact they don’t only ask for blessings from the dead but they also request for help…well as far as i know this is not allowed according to mainstream sunnis BUT it is very common among “sunni sufis” especially in India and the surrounding regions, though sunnis and salafis don’t agree with them, the sufis tend to use ISLAMIC SCRIPTURES to defend what they are doing…it’s kinda like how protestants view catholics…visiting tombs is also common among Shia muslims especially in Iran, among the most popular ones is the Tomb of Imam Reza and shias often ask Reza for help… There are other weird practices that sufis tend to do such as the use of amulets, weird “praying” habits which looks similar to hindus, they also heavily decorate mosques, they celebrate birthdays of Great Saints and the list goes on…i studied in one of their madrassas as a kid and i can tell you for sure that they believe what they are doing is completely Islamic…i’m not saying this to disagree with you, i’m just stating the facts because i’ve been surrounded by these kind of people all my life…i forgot to mention that they accuse everyone who disagree with their practices as “Wahabbis”, “heretics”…
LikeLiked by 1 person
That’s during dutch colonial times, nowadays thousands upon thousands of tireless Islamic da’ees are teaching ordinary Indonesians to live according to true Islamic principles, more and more Indonesian muslims live according to God’s law. Alas it is the christians of Indonesia who are losing to non-belief, secularism and materialism.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Eric, you mean “deobandies”? I heard they are very active in Asia…
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No, the teachers/preachers are individual efforts (merely seeking the pleasure of Allah) who came from all sort of professional background. Most likely they adhere to traditionalist Sunni Islam following the Shafi’i madhab: Nahdatul Ulama movement or the non-mazhabiah Muhammadiyah movement.
Very recently the Salafi movement are also very active in reaching out to muslims with their sophisticated network of media and education centres, they are growing fast.
LikeLiked by 2 people
MashAllah, may God give those teachers strength…
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Aameen
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I agree with Eric, that Islam may have been weak, or partially understood and mixed with ancient tribal beliefs etc. in the colonial past. But in the modern era, with the benefit of internet, ease of travel, and media outlets reaching wide areas, information is much more easily disseminated than it was in previous times. Therefore accurate religious knowledge of Islam is more accessible in the past. With this in combination with the Da’ees that Eric mentioned, I think many traditional Muslim nations, and ethnic groups (not just Indonesians) are getting back to basic teachings and purifying their Islam from any innovations or remnants of non-Islamic cultural practices. This is a very good thing that is happening, as it increases the commonalities between Muslims worldwide, and encourages unity amongst the Ummah. This focus on returning to basic teachings, and purification of the deen through the promoting accurate religious knowledge about Islam also acts as a “firewall” to any outside effect from Christian Missionaries.
LikeLiked by 3 people