Imam Ibn al-Qayyim was a prominent Muslim jurist during Islam’s Golden Age. He also composed poetry. Among his more famous works was a poem entitled A’obbad al-Maseeh Fi Naqd al-Nasraniyyah (O Christ-Worshipers! In Answering Christianity). This Poem is well-known in the Muslim world and has even been turned into a song. Ibn al-Qayyim is today best remembered as the foremost disciple and student of the influential fourteenth-century Sunni reformer Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah, with whom he was imprisoned in 1326 for dissenting against established tradition during Ibn Taymiyyah’s famous incarceration in the Citadel of Damascus.
The following is an English translation of the poem from the Arabic original:
O Christ-Worshipers! In Answering to Christianity
O Christ-worshipers! We want an answer to our questions from your wise ones,
If the Lord was murdered by some people’s act, what kind of god is this?
We wonder! Was He pleased by what they did to Him?
*
If yes, blessed be they, they achieved His pleasure,
But if He was discontented, this means their power had subjugated Him!
Was the whole world left without a Sustainer, so who answered the prayers?
*
Were the heavens vacated, when He laid under the ground somewhere?
Were all the worlds left without a God, to manage while His hands were nailed?
Why did not the angels help Him, when they heard Him while he wailed?
How could the rods stand to bear the True Lord when He was fastened,
How could the irons reach Him and have His body pinned?
How could His enemies’ hands reach Him and slap His rear?
*
And was Christ revived by himself, or was the Reviver another god?
What a sight it was, a grave that enclosed a god,
Stranger still is the belly that confined Him!
*
He stayed there for nine months in utter darkness, fed by blood!
Then he got out of the womb as a small baby,
Weak and gasping to be breast-fed!
*
He ate and drank, and did what that naturally resulted,
Is this what you call a God?
High Exalted be Allah above the lies of Christians!
*
All of them will be held accountable for their libels!
O Cross-worshippers!
For what reason is this exalted and blame is cast upon those who reject it?
Is it not logical to break and burn it, along with the one who innovated it?
Since the Lord was crucified on it, and his hands were fastened to it?
That is really a cursed cross to carry, So discard it, do not kiss it!
The Lord was abused on it, and you adore it?
*
So it is clear that you are one of His enemies!
If you extol it because it carried the Lord of the Worlds,
*
Why don’t you prostrate yourself and worship graves,
Since the grave contained your god in it?
So Christ-worshipper, open your eyes, This is what the matter is all about.
Categories: Christianity, Poetry
Blogging Theology 
Seems Islamic thought and apologetics hasn’t changed much in 700 years!
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Interesting you didn’t answer the poem.
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which part would you like an answer to?
“Was the whole world left without a Sustainer, so who answered the prayers?”
No, it wasn’t because of two reasons. First, Christians believe in a triune Lord. Only the Son was incarnate. Second, death does not mean cessationof existence, even in Islamic thought.
So on two fronts this is easily answered. One theological and one philosophical.
As I said, Muslim thinking hasn’t advanced much.
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I did say the poem.
You could write a line to answer each line, to see how it goes.
Criticism is succinct, can the refutation be equivalent.
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sorry, but death does not take over a being who is beginningless and has power over everything. It is foolish to say that death took over the creator of death. Foolish.
how can you believe triune being (part of it) was over taken by death and @ same time the other two persons remained untouched by death ? are you saying that the trinity can exist without the person of the son?
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Christians are just pagans/polytheists. Everyone can see this except xtians themselves of course.
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@Paulus,
Why going back only 700 years. How about going back even further to when Psalms 106:20 was written (2700 years maybe?).
“They exchanged their glorious God for the image of a bull that eats grass”.
This presupposes that a creature depending on food for sustenance cannot be God (unless there is some quality specific to grass -as opposed to other food- that makes those who consume it ineligible for being God).
Looks like Ibn Al-Qayyim and Muslims in general have a lot more in common with the author of Psalms 106:20, than the followers of the Trinitarian Church.
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Paulus,
Why don’t you say that muslims were so advanced with their arguments long ago that christians cannot answer muslims’ questions till this day. Just look to your answer regrading the death of your god to know what. I mean.
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“We wonder! Was He pleased by what they did to Him?” (No)
If yes, blessed be they, they achieved His pleasure, (N/A)
But if He was discontented, this means their power had subjugated Him! (That doesn’t follow. God can allow something that he finds displeasure in. Islamic theology is full of this as well)
Were the heavens vacated, when He laid under the ground somewhere? (As stated above, this objection is based on a false assumption of who God is to Christians)
Were all the worlds left without a God, to manage while His hands were nailed? (Just a repeat)
Why did not the angels help Him, when they heard Him while he wailed? (Because no one can thwart the plan of God, correct?)
It really is a amateurish poem unfortunately
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but Isaiah 53 says that it pleased god to crush him. How did god crush his flesh which he created ? he put his power in the pagan hands and crushed his flesh. the hands of the pagans became divinised . it is the shedding of the flesh and it is only the flesh which has to be crushed, so it clearly was pleasing experience .
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Well why was Jesus not pleased with his own supposed plan regarding himself?
So people were able to do to Jesus which Jesus didn’t like to be done to him even though he planned it to happen to him?
(In Islam God chooses and allows actions done by creation to creation to allow creation will, even if God doesn’t like the action done by creation to creation. But the actions happen according to God’s will.
In Christianity Jesus chooses and allows the action done by creation to him to allow Jesus will, even if Jesus doesn’t like the action done by creation to him. But the actions happen according to Jesus will through creation will. God’s will about himself is dependent on creation will?)
So if the heavens were vacated of Jesus and Jesus was nailed, Jesus is dispensable to Christians i.e the triune God doesn’t need that extra person to function?
Well if Jesus was wailing he was weaker than the Angels. (If Christians believe God can be murdered if God chooses to be then Hiis plans can be thwarted in the same fashion)
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It is a poem that slaps crosstianity. Sad the xtians are too deaf, dumb and blind to realize it.
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It’s good to see where Muslim apologetics comes from. It’s sad that no development has progressed. It’s even sadder that this *leader* was so reliant upon illogical reasoning and straw men.
I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that during that time Muslims probably didn’t have much access to Christian theological scholarship.
There is nothing new under the sun. How apt
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“It’s even sadder that this *leader* was so reliant upon illogical reasoning and straw men”
Are you serious?
He stayed there for nine months in utter darkness, fed by blood!
Then he got out of the womb as a small baby,
Weak and gasping to be breast-fed!
*
He ate and drank, and did what that naturally resulted,
Is this what you call a God?
High Exalted be Allah above the lies of Christians!
That’s a clear slap to the xtian’s face.
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Paulus, you haven’t answered the poem.
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I answered part of it and unsurprisingly no Muslim offered any type of reasonable response, so why bother with the rest?The rest of the poem is basically a treatise against the incarnation, but without a clear understanding of two natured Christology.
All in all the poem is really just a big jumble of straw men fallacies and illogical conclusions
And kinda ironically the Muslim talks about worshiping the graves but this is exactly what probably a majority of Muslims in the world do!!
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Paulus,besides offering anecdotal evidences.
I provided a response to your response, challenging your understanding of the poem and Inhave not seen you challenge my response.
Jews would be in the same position as Muslims regarding this poem. So I don’t see how can you logically, rationally, reasonably support Christianity?
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“Was the whole world left without a Sustainer, so who answered the prayers?”
seems he didn’t know there were two more Gods in addition to the one who died…..
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He clearly didn’t understand the trinity. That much is clear
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To understand something means to acknowledge te reason and logic behind a certain thing.
The trinity is a logical fallacy and a self contradiction.
Understanding something and a self contradiction are diametrically opposed to one another.
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It’s been shown that the idea of the trinity is in fact not a logical problem. I can only assume that since you say that that your either ignorant of what philosophy teaches or deliberately being obtuse. Either way, it doesn’t impact the discussions t hand
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A, B and C all equal X and yet A, B and C are different from one another. That is a self contradiction no matter what verbal gymnastics you use.
I don’t care (nor does logic) whether you put in the terms ‘person’ in A, B and C and ‘being’ in X or you use ‘potato’ and ‘tomato’, it still remains a paradox. Just like the godman concept is a self contradiction.
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And yet, the oneness of the god of islam is exactly like the oneness of pigs and goats.
“What kind of god is this!!!”, indeed.
Islam is left with the paradox of a god that is limited by its own omnipotence – if god cannot exist in human form then humans have capabilities that allah does not. If god cannot whilst simultaneously exist in morethan one state at the same time, then he is not master of time, or dimension.
Allah can do none of these things, he is not the true god, ergo.
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No one and I mean NO ONE here takes you seriously including you xtian brothers.
Now go worship your goat mangod who is one person like a goat just like the holy ghost which is 1 person.
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That’s a good philosophical point. I’d be interested for Muslims to try and engage with the argument
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If that’s a good philosophical point then that means you are worshiping three goats cus each individual in your triune godhead is ONE person.
Enjoy!
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@Joel.
You sound like an atheist telling Christians “Can God create a rock so heavy even He cannot lift”.
Comparing the oneness of God to the oneness of goats and pigs is really absurd. For starters, there are multiple goats that share the property of “goat-ness” and multiple pigs that share the property of “pigness”.
“Goatness” is transferred from the father goat to the son goat when the child is begotten by the father goat.
Same with the transfer of “pigness”, “horse-ness”, “elephant-ness”, “human-ness” and any other scenario where what it is to be something is transferred from parent to child.
God , in contrast to all these, is by definition the One on whom everything depends whilst he does not depend on anyone.
Therefore, the Oneness of God is unique in that his essence (what it is to be God) cannot be transferred/communicated/begotten etc.
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“Islam is left with the paradox of a god that is limited by it’s own omnipotence”
“If god cannot whilstb simultaneously exist in more than one state at the time, then he is not master of time, or dimension”
“If god cannot exist in Human form then humans have capabilities that Allah does not”
Of course Allah can do all of this….The right Questions are, is it really necessary for Him to do all of that? Does that fit God’s Divine Majesty? God has the ability to do “EVERYTHING” and that includes things that are “Evil”…so if God doesn’t do anything “Evil”, does that mean he can’t do it? That wouldn’t make him God right? Would it be proper for God to go to the Toilet(defecating)? Or to be tempted by the Devil? Or to have “sex”? To start ranting on the cross? Of course He can do all of this but does that fit His Majesty? Of course not…
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I may seem to be digressing right now but Trinitarian Christianity encounters an important paradox….
According to the “Hypostatic Union”, Jesus was supposed to be 100 % God and 100% Man and he never lost his “divinity”, there was a union of a full Human nature and Full Divine Nature” and He was Fully God and Fully Man….
My question is, if he was still FULLY God, 100% God and he still possessed his FULL divine Nature, then why didn’t know the time of his return?(Matt. 24:35-37) what kind of 100% God is that?
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“If god cannot whilst simultaneously exist in more than one state at the same time”
Explain to us O great prophet joel how your god is 100% God and 100% man.
So was he ignorant or all knowing (or both which is a logical fallacy)?
Was he weak or All-Powerful (or both which is a logical fallacy)?
Did he need food or was he free of any need (or both which is a logical fallacy)?
Did he require breastfeeding or was he free of any need (or both which is a logical fallacy)?
Did he come out of a vagina or was his majesty not fit for that (or both which is a logical fallacy)?
Was he the son of Mary or her creator (or both which is a logical fallacy)?
We’ll be waiting for your masterful verbal gymnastics.
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Your reasoning is silly.
Did your god also reveal himself in the form of satan? He didn’t. Therefore, your god is limited. Q.E.D.
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“Of course Allah can do all of this….”
it is an absurdity to say “of course ALLAH can….”
if ALLAH IS OMNISCIENT , then does it make sense He could temporarily become blind? absolutely not. the omniscient PERSON never has an on/off switch built into his attribute OF ALL SEEING
IF ALLAH is ALL hearing, then does that mean He could temporarily not hear , of course NOT, because the all hearing person does not have an on/off switch built into his attribute
christianity DISABLES GODS ESSENTIAL attributes , but joels DISABLED god can exist WITHOUT other persons which means jesus and ghost is not NECESSARY to the father in order for father to exist.
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@Heathcliff, Question, does that mean he can’t do it? Like i said in my answer Allah can do EVERYTHING, but there are things He choose not to do for example being Evil and stuff…
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ROTFL, Little Coco has been demolished on this matter already. The monkey clings to his absurd polemics, and brings them back after he initially runs away from taking a beating.
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Joel
October 29, 2017 • 5:59 am
And yet, the oneness of the god of islam is exactly like the oneness of pigs and goats.
“What kind of god is this!!!”, indeed.
Islam is left with the paradox of a god that is limited by its own omnipotence – if god cannot exist in human form then humans have capabilities that allah does not. If god cannot whilst simultaneously exist in morethan one state at the same time, then he is not master of time, or dimension.
Allah can do none of these things, he is not the true god, ergo
I say;
Goat= 1 goat + 1 goat + 1 goat = 3 goats.
Trinity God = 1 person + 1 person + 1 person = 3 persons.
Therefore Christian Trinity God = God that can be counted one +.
An idol worshiper like Joel who is a polytheist just like any idol worshipers and polytheists will keep arguing that 1 goat is the same as his God hence his worship of a creature(man-Jesus).
The God of the Bible is 1 and no one else. One or more persons cannot be added to the only one true God of Jesus Christ.
Proof:
“”You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
“O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
“Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
“Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
Adding 1 or more persons to the one and only true God of Jesus is idol worship and polytheism punishable in hell fire. We do not have 1 goat but MANY created goats. God is not created MANY and also uncreated, so God cannot be more than 1. The mind of Joel the idol worshiper thinks goats are not many but one just like thinking his Trinity God are one but they are 3 persons counted like 3 goats counted. He is so stupid to keep insisting the one God who is not created is MANY ones like goats who are MANY ones.
Joel is very foolish to be the only Christian arguing on this. We have Most Reverends and Very Reverends on this blog and they never argued like this. Joes for the past weeks did not understand God’s oneness is not MANY like goats because his Trinity God is MANY like goats. This makes his ignorance insanity. He does not know he is wrong. A person who does not know he is wrong is a lunatic.
God said He is 1 and alone and no one else. Why keep adding other persons to God? Only polytheist like Joel will not know the difference. At least most Christians will not say the one(God) who is not created is MANY like the created ones..
Thanks.
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fawaz
“Therefore, the Oneness of God is unique in that his essence (what it is to be God) cannot be transferred/communicated/begotten etc.”
The quran states that allah transfers his spirit into mary via jibril to conceive jesus – your own scriptures refute your point. According to the word of your own god, he can transfer his essence across multiple persons.
That aside, just like the other muslims on this blog, you have shot yourself in the foot – your argument is circular. You are basically saying allah is one because allah is one – there is no explanation here.
Just for your information, every creature ever to have existed is unique and one – if we dig up let’s say the bones of moahmmed and took a swab of DNA and managed to clone him, we would produce an exact copy. We would not produce Elvis from the DNA of mohammed because each is unique in the same way allah is supposedly unique. This means that allah isn’t really unique – his oneness is still like Elvis’s or any goat.
He cannot be the true god for this reason.
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shaad
The christian position is that god is intrinsically triune – he exists as a plurality infinitely, and the incarnation is a contingency, not a necessity – god comes down for us, not for himself nor because he has to.
“My question is, if he was still FULLY God, 100% God and he still possessed his FULL divine Nature, then why didn’t know the time of his return?(Matt. 24:35-37) what kind of 100% God is that?”
I thought you just agreed that god can exist simultaneously in different forms? If you agree, then what objection do you have to god existing 100% as man with limited human knowledge, and 100% divine with perfect knowledge? Yu can’t have it both ways.
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Joel, seems you didn’t read my question properly, did i disagree that God can exist simultaneously in different forms? Did i raise any objection towards the idea that God can exist as a human? Please read my question again and read the definition of Hypoststic Union then try to answer it…
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Joel, seems you were in hurry when reading my question, take your time, take a deep breath, put some Whitney Houston on youtube, get some chocolates then try to answer it…😊
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Whitney Houston? Well, that song from the bodyguard was pretty good.
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Quran&Bible, makes me remember my childhood…
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this joel guy is worse parrot then ken temple .
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belieber
What is the point of your comment? You sound angry from all the beatings you’ve gotten the past few days.
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answer his comment pig, did yhwh have full experiential feeling in leaving vagina ?
you said yhwh is every where, even in vaginas.
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Brother, he won’t answer because he knows how embarrassed he will be. So, he’ll dance like the tampon-obsessed monkey he is! Lol!
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VS
“Did your god also reveal himself in the form of satan? He didn’t. Therefore, your god is limited. Q.E.D.”
That actually doesn’t make any sense. God can assume in any form he wants – it’s counter-productive to appear as satan, though, wouldn’t you think?
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Joel, Exactly this is what we are talking about, there are things that God choose not to do…Does that mean he can’t do them? Of course not…
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So, still, over several posts, no muslim is able to answer this simple question – how is allah’s oneness different from a goat’s?
So far it looks as though it isn’t.
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Joel, how did you reach to the conclusion that Allah’s oneness is the same than that of a goat? Can you please elaborate?
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qb
“Brother, he won’t answer because he knows how embarrassed he will be. So, he’ll dance like the tampon-obsessed monkey he is! Lol!”
Why so angry, moron? I have no way of knowing what god experiences.
There, I answered your question. Happy, stupid?
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joel, you’ve been bruised and slapped worse than your “savior”
have some shame for yourself.
faiz , intellect, atlas have beat you silly man. have some shame. it is not looking good for you here. every year you come for reddening on bt. why ?
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“I have no way of knowing what god experiences.”
LOL, so you don’t know how the one person who has oneness like testicle/goat experiences/feels EXIST from vagina? WHY ? yhwh says in the OT he has heavenly nostrils which inhale burning flesh, do you believe yhwh INHALEs burning flesh?
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hey joel, do the cherubim who hold yhwhs throne contain yhwhs divinity?
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“God can assume in any form he wants”
wtf is this ?
son of man
cloud
angel
bull
fire
LOL your god tells jews not to do adultery with heavenly objects, but the HYPOCRITE that he is, he “assumes” form for himself
I UNDERSTAND WHY THE HEBREWS HAD A PROBLEM WITH IDOLATRY. IT IS MAKING SENSE. THEY WERE WORSHIPPING YHWH in ANY FORM
thanks to joel, hebrew idolatry is making sense.
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“What is the point of your comment? You sound angry from all the beatings you’ve gotten the past few days.”
You see joel we all know you’re a pathetic loser. You don’t answer questions and your moronic crosstian questions get answered while turning those questions around and bitchslapping you with them and you can’t answer.
“Explain to us O great prophet joel how your god is 100% God and 100% man.
So was he ignorant or all knowing (or both which is a logical fallacy)?
Was he weak or All-Powerful (or both which is a logical fallacy)?
Did he need food or was he free of any need (or both which is a logical fallacy)?
Did he require breastfeeding or was he free of any need (or both which is a logical fallacy)?
Did he come out of a vagina or was his majesty not fit for that (or both which is a logical fallacy)?
Was he the son of Mary or her creator (or both which is a logical fallacy)?”
Where exactly in your shitty crosstian comment did you answer my questions?
Answer the questions or fuck off.
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“I have no way of knowing what god experiences.”
you don’t know what your god experiences, but women know what they experience while birthing. how can you believe a woman experienced birthing a god which has oneness like a goat/testicle ?
we are not asking what a moron like you knows, we are asking, does your god EXPERIENCE leaving private part of a woman LIKE a human baby LEAVES private part of a woman?
no one wants to know what you know, we want to know if you agree that your god, like a human baby experiences leaving vagina.
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your god also was being tempted by the devil , so while he was being tempted, the person of jesus was listening to his human mind. so jesus was imagining idolatry and adultery in his human mind, this means the divine mind had no connection to his thinking otherwise he would not be able to be tempted. while jesus is experiencing thoughts of idolatry and adultery, the person of jesus was obeying this mind. the divine mind , what was it doing? experiencing the human mind? temporarily went into disconnect mode?
so which is it ? was your god , like human being having sexual thoughts which satan was tempting him ?
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“Why so angry, moron? I have no way of knowing what god experiences.
There, I answered your question. Happy, stupid?”
Hahahaha, you actually sound angry. I think the repeated beatings you are taking are starting to take their toll.
No, you didn’t answer the question, idiot. LOL, all you did was do your usual dance, just as I had said you would!
You say you have no way of knowing what God experiences? Why not? Is it really that difficult to figure it out? If your god was born, he would have experienced the process of birth, would he not? Answer now, moron!
I also have another question for you. After your god was born, he would have been circumcised. This was a standard Jewish practice. When your god was circumcised, what happened to his foreskin? Did it ascend into heaven? Or did it decompose like any other human body part?
Queue the monkey dance in 3…2…1…
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shaad
“Joel, seems you were in hurry when reading my question, take your time, take a deep breath, put some Whitney Houston on youtube, get some chocolates then try to answer it…”
LOL!! I think you are one of the good guys!
I did read your question – what I don’t understand is that you agree that god can do anything, even exist in different forms simultaneously, which means that you agree he can be 100% human and 100% divine. Agreed?
If god can be 100% human, then his knowledge in that form must be limited, even though he still exists as 100% divine in some other way.
“Exactly this is what we are talking about, there are things that God choose not to do…Does that mean he can’t do them? “
This getting into a different subject – no one fully knows what god will or won’t do. That’s divine prerogative.
If, however, you believe that god is merciful and that he wants humans to experience his “godness” because it is the best thing possible, then it follows logically that he would do what is necessary to make that as simple or likely as possible to happen. Christians say the incarnation and atonement on the cross is the manifestation of that divine love and mercy.
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@Joel, my reply went down below, sorry about that…
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@Joel, i mean down below to the bottom…you’ll see a couple of questions that i asked as well but you didn’t notice them, please make sure to check then out…👍
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Joel
“If, however, you believe that god is merciful and that he wants humans to experience his “godness” because it is the best thing possible, then it follows logically that he would do what is necessary to make that as simple or likely as possible to happen. Christians say the incarnation and atonement on the cross is the manifestation of that divine love and mercy.”
I say;
Idol worshipers who worship snakes(voodoo), Elephants,cows, man, monkeys(Hindus), Haile Selaissie(Rastafarians) etc. say just like Christians incarnation is the manifestation of that divine love and mercy.
That is what all idol worshipers like you believed, Joel.
God is one and He cannot be 2. Yes, God cannot be created. God cannot become a creation(man), God cannot become 3 persons, 4 persons etc.
Joel, if you believed God can become anything, why blame Hindus for worshiping monkeys? Yes, you believed God can become anything. Jay Smith in one of his videos said God can become monkey. Then do not blame Hindus and any other idol worshipers for worshiping their idols because Joel you share the same idea of God becoming creations. All of you Joel will be roasted in hell fire if you do not worship the God of Jesus like Muslims, Jews and Unitarian Christians do.
Trinitarians are idol worshipers. Do not say 3, desist. It is better for you. Allah said and warned you Joel. Repent until it is too late.
Thanks.
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@Joel,
Jesus is a spirit FROM God.
The Quran does not say God transferred His essence to Mary’s womb.
Even the Bible refers to prophets as spirits from God.See 1 John 4:1
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Joel
Just for your information, every creature ever to have existed is unique and one – if we dig up let’s say the bones of moahmmed and took a swab of DNA and managed to clone him, we would produce an exact copy. We would not produce Elvis from the DNA of mohammed because each is unique in the same way allah is supposedly unique. This means that allah isn’t really unique – his oneness is still like Elvis’s or any goat.
He cannot be the true god for this reason.
I say;
But these creatures are not one but MANY. God is one, only and alone. Polytheist, idol worshipers and fools like you think that God is MANY like goats(created and creations) and that is why you are worshiping monkeys, man, cows, elephants(Hindus), man-Jesus, Spirit(Trinity Christians), snakes(voodoo), man-Haile Selassie(Rastafarians). man-Sai Baba(Hindus) etc.
You think one goat is the only goat who is alone and not created, that is why you keep insisting goat is like God. That is why there is no wonder you worship Jesus(man) thinking he is not created like you think goat is one, alone and not created MANY but one and only.
Kindergarten kid can count more than one goat like counting more than one persons in your Trinity Gods. Because your Trinity God is MANY ones like goats are MANY ones, you think that is what God of the Bible is.
You are bound to hell fire if you do not repent because God say He is one, only and alone. Thinking goatie will always send you to hell because goat is not one but MANY and the God of the Bible is not MANY. You are just an idol worshiper. Most Christians understand God 1 is not MANY ONES like goats because He(God) is alone and not created MANY like goats. You do not understand and it makes you senseless, insane, lunatic who cannot count.
Thanks.
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fawaz
“Jesus is a spirit FROM God.”
This sounds a lot like a plural god talking about his own spirit in 21:91.
“The Quran does not say God transferred His essence to Mary’s womb.”
Fallacy of equivocation – The text CLEARLY states that god breathes his spirit into Mary. Your bizarre and absurd claim is that god’s OWN SPIRIT is somehow not of his essence.
You have committed shirk – divided your god such that his spirit is not of his essence.
Absurd.
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This argument is like the atheist saying to Christians “Can God create a rock so heavy even He cannot lift?”
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“Islam is left with the paradox of a god that is limited by it’s own omnipotence”
but but but, the father and the ghost did not have experiential feelings of taking a CALL OF NATURE , eating food, having sexual temptations etc etc . this means part of the trinity, according to your logic, was LIMITED BY ITS omnipotence.
OR do you believe the FOLLOWING :
since jesus experiences all the human created emotions, then the triune god currently is POSSESSING these attributes. the triune god currently knows the ACTUAL feeling of DYING , sexual temptation,thoughts of murder, thoughts of rape etc etc, so this implies that WITHIN yhwh EXISTS a limited and flawed nature which did not exist before.
jesus the 2nd person has a PERMANENT experience and limitation attached to him , which he cannot forget.
“If god cannot whilstb simultaneously exist in more than one state at the time, then he is not master of time, or dimension”
god can exist in HELL
?
in IDOLS?
God created TIME AND DIMENSION and knew of it EVEN before it existed. He was always MASTER OF IT .
Your problem is that his MASTERING of it means he has to CREATE himself in it. he has to EXPERIENCE of it BEFORE he puts himself in it ergo the father is LIMITED by your own “logic”
since he never put himself in time.
so how does it work exactly? did your god create a spare pagan god , send him off, bring him back and then ask him, “how does hell fire feel” ?
“how does DIGESTION feel” ?
“how does GROWING up and learning feel” ?
“how does grief, sorrow, suffering etc etc feel” ?
“If god cannot exist in Human form then humans have capabilities that Allah does not”
you telling me that god is limited because he does not have EXPERIENTIAL FEELINGS of being human being ?
so tell me, does the being of yhwh EVER experience the EXPERIENCE of being human being ?
if not, why not?
does yhwh your god, have experience of menstruation ?
do you as a human EXPERIENCE the MENSTRUATION of your dog while she is menstruation ?
your god is pagan and measurable and he cant forgive sins without punishing a 1/3 of himself .
you mean 2 from among the pagan triplets would never know what it feels like to be human.
humans by their nature CHANGE and are LIMITED , yhwh on the other hand says about himself :
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
26They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
Like clothing you will change them
and they will be discarded.
27But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.
does your pagan god have EXPERIENTIAL FEELING of change ?
if not, why not? it is no good WEARING a mask, we want to know if your god EXPERIENCES change.
we know even you know that your “primary” god is UNABLE /has no power/LIMITED to EXPERIENCE CHANGE, because he is, LIMITED and creation more powerful than him .
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does yhwh take of his flesh garments LOL ?
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QUOTE :
According to the “Hypostatic Union”, Jesus was supposed to be 100 % God and 100% Man and he never lost his “divinity”, there was a union of a full Human nature and Full Divine Nature” and He was Fully God and Fully Man….
try to get a christian to answer what part of the invisible yhwh BECAME visible and created .
yhwh says he does not change, but he DOES change CREATION.
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
26They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
Like clothing you will change them
and they will be discarded.
27But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.
so try to get them to answer what part of that invisible he changes . what part of that invisible he CHANGES and then wears out .
so the fristian “add-on” /increased pagan triplet god CHANGES, he ALSO HAS expERIENTIAL feelings he did not have before. he is a wearing out god since joel needs his god to be taken over by DEATH , pain and suffering .
jesus is not identified as “flesh WALKED the earth” jesus is identified as “god had FULL experience of being human being”
note the difference ?
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hey joel, do the cherubim who hold yhwhs throne have yhwhs DIVINITY in them?
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joel, the father has everything the son has, but the father does not have EVERYTHING THE triune god has.
for analogies sake
1 testicle has everything the other testicle has , but they don’t have everything the sack has.
so you worship a god which has oneness like a testicle sack.
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Mr.heathcliff, brother please refrain from such abhorrent examples.
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Joel, Question, what do you mean by “his spirit”? Do you mean Allah’s own essence? Where exactly does it say that bro? It simply means a spirit created by Allah which belongs to Allah, it’s as simple as that my brother….
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Joel, by the way are you a boy or a girl? “Joel” is a female name in my country…if you’re a girl then i’m sorry for calling you “brother”..
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“Of course Allah can do all of this….The right Questions are,”
why is it can and not is it true of ALLAH ? does it make sense for ALLAH to learn and grow in knowledge when He knows everything ? I don’t think this is “of course Allah can do….”
an attribute which is INHERENT IN ALLAH CAN NEVER BE LET GO.ALLAH IS NEVER SEPARETED FROM HIS ESSENTIAL ATTRIBUTE, IT WOULD be absurd to disable the creator.
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ALLAH is beginningless
ALLAH is independent
Allah does not create reduction in Himself when the inherent attribute is permanent and perfect and never EXISTS INDEPENDANT OF ALLAH.
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@Heathcliff, “Allah does not create reduction in Himself”
That’s exactly my point, did you even properly read my answer? Quran says…
“…indeed Allah is able to do all things…” (Surah At Talaaq (65) V. 12)
What do you understand by “all things”? That means Allah can do EVERYTHING He wants but there are things which he CHOOSE NOT to do though he can do them…
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@Heathcliff, i’m sorry if my reply sound rude by the way, it was not intended to be rude…
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Shaad,
“Of course Allah can do all of this….The right Questions are, is it really necessary for Him to do all of that?” – Exactly!! This is exactly how I argued against this idea in a past blog post a long time ago.
As you did, I also mentioned the following verse:
“…indeed Allah is able to do all things…” (Surah At Talaaq (65) V. 12).
I also mentioned the following verses:
“Had We sent down this Quran on a mountain, you would surely have seen it humbling itself and rending asunder by the fear of Allah. Such are the parables which We put forward to mankind that they may reflect .” Qur’an 59:21
And when Moses arrived at Our appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said, “My Lord, show me [Yourself] that I may look at You.” [ Allah ] said, “You will not see Me, but look at the mountain; if it should remain in place, then you will see Me.” But when his Lord appeared to the mountain, He rendered it level, and Moses fell unconscious. And when he awoke, he said, “Exalted are You! I have repented to You, and I am the first of the believers.” Qur’an 7:143
The radiance of Allah is so majestically powerful that the creation can’t bear to see it. So when the creation can’t bear to see it, out of mercy for the creation, Allah has veiled Himself from us in this world. And what is His veil? His veil is itself a light.
It is because the creation cannot bear to see the fullness of the majesty of almighty God Allah, that he CHOOSES not to enter into the creation otherwise it may implode. It is not because he cannot do so, but rather because he chooses not to, as it would be contrary to hls purposes.
The fact that creation itself did not implode when God allegedly incarnated incarnated into the body of Jesus proves that this is a fabricated myth and that Jesus cannot possibly be God.
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Brothers, why don’t you first think what is being asked is a logical contradiction before entertaining that is a logical action which Allah can perform. Logical contradictions are meaningless, self defeating.
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Fahad, it would be a logical contradiction if we use christian logic of hypostatic union…the only way they can fix their problem on this subject is by mere speculation instead of relying on scriptures…
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Shaad, it is a logical contradiction regardless of christian logic, if one ponders.
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Fahad, if God himself becomes human then He won’t be God anymore due to the fact he would lose His godly attributes it’s as simple as that…BUT does that mean he can’t do it?
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Shaad, God becoming a human, is not an action, to inquire about, whether it possible. It doesn’t come into the realms of being an action let alone realms of possibility.
It is like saying can the uncreated being become a created being?
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@Fahad, read brother Heathcliff’s reply…
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@Fahad, i always thought that if nothing is impossible for Allah then there must be a way to do it but i guess he can’t….case is closed then…
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As I said it is not a matter of can or can’t but simply the response is; it is not an action.Y
If I tasked can you yellow. You will ask me what do you mean rather than answer yes or no.
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Fahad, brother, in simple terms Allah can’t do it, it would be impossible”….Heathcliff quoted Sheikh Wissam who says “Even if He desired and willed to become man He can’t”
I guess there we’ve already got our answer on this subject, there’s nothing more to discuss the case is solved in my opinion….
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Shaadi, Apologies. I am not trying to force my view. What I am saying is that it is clearer to go with the position of saying not an action hence an atheist for example can’t use that to question Allah’s omnipotence. Because other positions require further clarification and mental gymnastics.
And Allah knows best.
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@Fahad, Indeed brother, Allah knows best, “Shaadi” means “wedding” right?
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Shaad, indeed Shaadi means wedding. So one could say I was saying no thank you to Shaadi :p.
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@Fahad, i don’t see any reason for you to Apologize by the way, you did nothing wrong, you were simply stating your opinion which was really valuable and useful…
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God would cease to be God if He becomes Human but can he do it or not? He is supposed to be able to do Everything right? Unless we can prove that God can’t do Everything…
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“…indeed Allah is able to do all things…” (Surah At Talaaq (65) V. 12)
i think the better translation is that Allah has power over ALL things .
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“That means Allah can do EVERYTHING He wants but there are things which he CHOOSE NOT to do though he can do them…”
i don’t think this is correct.
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@Heathcliff, can you summarize some of the points bro? Maybe i’m mistaken as well as wrong, who knows right? during my conversation with one of “WhyIslam’s” agents a couple of minutes ago i asked him the same question, he told me that Allah can become a Human but Allah made it prohibited for Him due to the fact it doesn’t fit His Majesty…he quoted the first verse of chapter 35 to prove that Allah can do Everything and that includes becoming a Human but that would be “impossible” because he won’t be God anymore though He can do it…christians bring up the idea of Hypostatic Union to prove the so called “Human Deity” of Jesus aka God becomes Human, on top of that they are faced with a problem which you excellently outlined in your comments below and their theory for explaining this is called “Communicatio Idiomatum”(read about it, it’s pretty funny tbh), do they have any proof from the scripture to prove it? The answer is “no”, it can be compared to a story that a kid makes up…some christians realised they are faced with a problem with “Communicatio Idiomatum” so they developed Kenotic Theology(it’s even funnier) to explain it properly, and the result is that christians who believe in kenotic theology are called Heretics by their own Trinitarian brethren….here’s a link to chapter 35 by the way…
https://quran.com/35
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@Heathcliff, i’m going to sleep by the way…i will reply tomorrow inshAllah…
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”
God would cease to be God if He becomes Human but can he do it or not? ”
if God is UNCREATED and beginingless , then he cannot choose to become CREATED and with beginning . He knows He is not CREATED. He knows he did not begin to exist. He knows he can’t have experiential feelings of being created because of His nature /who He is.
shiekh wissam says that God has power over all things except the absurdities like can god create another god or when he is a man , can he create that man BACK into god?
he says whatever he creates would be created unlike him who is eternal .
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statement from wissam :
“Gods will and ability cannot access the impossibilities and render unto His nature a defect or something unbefitting; it can’t give Him something which is faulty…and neither can it take away and strip Him of who He is
God is beginingless
His will and power CAN’T take that away”
so it seems that according to wissam ,
Gods will cannot over power or put defect on God. it makes no sense. Gods power cannot OVER POWER God can put defect in God/change in God.
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Wissam said :
God knows what He is
responding to someone
“he can’t become man even if he chose ”
wissam : i really would love you to just really take this in
Even if He desired and willed to become man He can’t ….well this is the reality ….God knows what He is and what He isn’t ergo the question is absurd because theres gonna be no will for it
question absurd ,premise false .
There is no such desire
there is no such will
He knows what he is and what he isn’t , He knows His nature this is the concept of Islam this is why we say it is an impossibility.
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@Heathcliff, “Even if He desired and willed to become man HE CAN’T”
Case is closed then….
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@Heathcliff, thanks for summarizing the points by the way….
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fahad
“Brothers, why don’t you first think what is being asked is a logical contradiction before entertaining that is a logical action which Allah can perform. “
This is mere assertion – you have not in any way demonstrated this supposed logical contradiction.
“It is like saying can the uncreated being become a created being?”
No, it;s like saying god is capable of withholding his power whilst simultaneously maintaining full divinity in some other manner. No one has even come close to demonstrating this to be impossible – there has been lots of assertion, but no argument.
See fawaz’s comment – you are basically saying that allah can create a reality that he is unable to enter. In other words your position is that allah can create a stone that he cannot lift.
“If I tasked can you yellow. You will ask me what do you mean rather than answer yes or no.”
This is extremely impressive rhetoric – not really – but extremely poor argument. An assertion is one third “ass”, and you have stated a whole lot of that. Where is your demonstration of this “logical contradiction”?
You shown shown absolutely demonstration to back up your assertions.
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shaad
“God would cease to be God if He becomes Human but can he do it or not?”
This presumes unitarianism bro – the christian position is that god can exist simultaneously as man and god. I see no reason for this to be impossible.
“He is supposed to be able to do Everything right? Unless we can prove that God can’t do Everything…”
That is the dilemma – the muslim position is that god has created a form of reality that he is excluded from. That is, god can create a stone too heavy for him to lift.
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heathclif
“Wissam said : “he can’t become man even if he chose ””
LOL!! Must be true – some random guy says its impossible, so it must be.
Still no sign of logical demonstration to back up these claims.
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Joel
“No, it;s like saying god is capable of withholding his power whilst simultaneously maintaining full divinity in some other manner.”
I say;
What manner?
“See fawaz’s comment – you are basically saying that allah can create a reality that he is unable to enter. In other words your position is that allah can create a stone that he cannot lift.”
I say;
What reality? God is Holy and He created unholy places like latrine, satan, shit, menses etc. and all are no earth, so God cannot be un holy by entering into unholy places and the earth is full of unholiness. Besides the creations of God i.e. Jesus(man) and earth itself is small for God to enter. So God cannot enter into this earth PHYSICALLY but sees everything- the knowledge of God is everywhere but God is not physically present in a man that is why He(God) said we should not worship any image on earth under, above and even not worship any image in heaven except the ONE, ONLY, UNSEEN, IMMORTAL God of the Bible who Jesus said He(God of the Bible) is the ONLY true God but Jesus is not that God but He the ONLY true God who is not Jesus sent Jesus(prophet).
This simple Islamic teachings in the Bible you are refusing to grasp because you want to worship a man-Jesus who is image on earth and doing that is punishable in hell fire without repentance.
Joel
November 2, 2017 • 7:07 pm
shaad
“God would cease to be God if He becomes Human but can he do it or not?”
This presumes unitarianism bro – the christian position is that god can exist simultaneously as man and god. I see no reason for this to be impossible.
I say;
God can exist simultaneously as man and God? No wonder you are an idol worshiper like Hindus who believed God can exist simultaneously as cow and God. If God can or will do that, why will He(God) warn is seriously against such believe of image(Jesus) as God?
The Jews worship a golden calf thinking God can exist simultaneously in an image but God and Moses were angry with the Jews because that is idol thinking like Trinity God.
Man is created and God is not uncreated, so God cannot become man(created).
…….to be continued
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—–continued.
Joel
November 2, 2017 • 7:10 pm
heathclif
“Wissam said : “he can’t become man even if he chose ””
LOL!! Must be true – some random guy says its impossible, so it must be.
Still no sign of logical demonstration to back up these claims.
God CANNOT become rat, man, snake, cow, monkey, shit, latrine, Haile Selassie, Sai Baba, Jesus Christ, Moses, Mohammed, Ali, Joel, intellect etc.
Why?
God created us as creations but God is not created so He cannot become man or monkey. The earth or man is small and unholy for God to be able to enter so He cannot enter. Limit. Do you know what limit means? Trinity God is limited in 3 persons. Stop kidding yourselves with words that can be thrown back at you.
Thanks.
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and the heavens are the work of your hands.
26They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
Like clothing you will change them
and they will be discarded.
27But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.
Clothes change. Clothes wear out. here God says that He is not like changing and wearing out creation .The years of creation does not remain the same.
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“LOL!! I think you are one of the good guys!”
I’m flattered…thanks mate…
“you agree he can be 100% human and 100% divine. Agreed?”
Agreed
“If god can be 100% human, then his knowledge in that form must be limited, even though he still exists as 100% divine in some other way”
Yeah but Hypostatic Union explains that both the Divine Nature and Human Nature were in the same body….let us assume that it is true then it means that the 100% Human Nature was DOMINATING the 100% Divine Nature which is impossible(remember Matt 24:35-37)…i mean the Divine Nature is supposed to be far more powerful than the Human Nature…100% Divine Nature means Jesus still possessed ALL of his godly powers and attributes, so does that mean that the Human Nature is Stronger?
“This is getting into a different subject no one fully knows what god will or won’t do.That’s divine prerogative”
I guess that statement answers your initial question about muslims….
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shaad
“Yeah but Hypostatic Union explains that both the Divine Nature and Human Nature were in the same body”
I’ve never heard anyone say that the divine and human natures were present in the same body – the doctrine is that both natures existed simultaneously within the person of the son.
“let us assume that it is true then it means that the 100% Human Nature was DOMINATING the 100% Divine Nature which is impossible(remember Matt 24:35-37)…i mean the Divine Nature is supposed to be far more powerful than the Human Nature…100% Divine Nature means Jesus still possessed ALL of his godly powers and attributes, so does that mean that the Human Nature is Stronger?”
“Dominating” is not the right word bro. God withheld his full divine power in some way – we don;t think that jesus’ human nature overpowered his divinity. This is the essence of the incarnation – god loves his created beings so much that he took full physical punishment for man’s sin onto himself. In order to do this he incarnated as fully human whilst simultaneously existing as fully divine.
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Joel, seems i misunderstood person with body….but when i think about it, wouldn’t that contradict Colossians 2:9?
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Joel
November 2, 2017 • 7:18 pm
shaad
“Yeah but Hypostatic Union explains that both the Divine Nature and Human Nature were in the same body”
I’ve never heard anyone say that the divine and human natures were present in the same body – the doctrine is that both natures existed simultaneously within the person of the son
I say;
You don’t have to say that but that is what is means. Jesus is a body and in that body there is God(divine nature) just like Hindu cow is a flesh and God(divine nature) in the cow.
How do you think when you see Hindus worshiping cow(flesh) who is God at the same time i.e. simultaneously? Do you think God is not in the flesh? If God is not in Jesus’s flesh(body), why worship Jesus? and say he is God?
Thanks.
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Joel
“”Dominating” is not the right word bro. God withheld his full divine power in some way – we don;t think that jesus’ human nature overpowered his divinity. This is the essence of the incarnation – god loves his created beings so much that he took full physical punishment for man’s sin onto himself. In order to do this he incarnated as fully human whilst simultaneously existing as fully divine.”
I say;
“God withheld his divine power in some way” -Joel. What way? Immortal becoming mortal? un-created? becoming created? All knowing becoming ignorant?
Tell me where in the Bible does Yahweh said He withheld his full divine powers? You mean God who knows everything withheld his knowledge and become ignorant because He loves you? How stupid could you ever be. Where in the Bible did God tell you He cannot love you until He withheld his full divine powers in some ways?
Good took physical punishment? Please repent on this blaspheme. God took physical punishment from who? His creations?
Man is responsible for his sins says the Bible and not God. I hope you remembered this.
Thanks.
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shaad
Good question.
Colossians is believed to have been written in response to gnostic heresies and is merely emphasizing jesus’ full incarnation as god into human form.
As a devout jew, Paul would not have claimed that the lord’s full divinity could be contained in human form.
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@Heathcliff, i’m sorry if my reply sound rude by the way, it was not intended to be rude…
not at all mate .
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“If god can be 100% human, then his knowledge in that form must be limited, even though he still exists as 100% divine in some other way”
so for example, ALL knowing god is crying to his mama for food/breast milk.
what does he do? does the person LISTEN to the human mind or does he listen to the divine mind ? if the human mind, then does that mean the divine mind goes into disconnect mode?
since all knowing god knows all languages , but chooses to have his person listen to the human mind, then the person of your god, which is identified as FULLY god is LISTENING to the human mind.
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…as 100% divine in some other way”
which way is that? what you are saying is that the person IS NO LONGER “CONNECTED” to his divine mind, it has NO INFLUENCE or CONNECTION to his thinking. as your baby yhwh is crying for MILK , his person (logos) is LISTENING/OBEYING to the human mind.
where does the other mind go? does it become like a disconnected computer ? in which way is he still divine ? is the person DEFORMED /broken /disabled ?
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“Christians say the incarnation and atonement on the cross is the manifestation of that divine love and mercy.”
how ? your god CREATED flesh and you consume it in your christian ritual of eucharist.
when did torah say that the mercy and love of god will TAKE the form of a human body which will be sacrificed and IDENTIFIED as yhwh? why are you LIMITING gods mercy and love to human body which you consume in your pagan ritual? you don’t even RELATE to unseen God, you relate to a body which you consume. you think about what a BODY did for you. Jews and Muslims look at the earth and see what God did for us. THe earth is not praised, the creator of the earth is praised. you love and have infatuation with a body which you consume and drink. you FUSE the love for the INVISIBLE WITH THE VISIBLE. you have LIMITED THE INVISIBLE being to VISIBLE created PUPPET . GOD TRUMPS THE FLESH AND ALWAYS HAS. all the actions of angels and holy men cannot equalize the love and mercy of God. your god needs to send a bloody go between just to have a chat with you, i say
Is the closest thing to this gods heart bloody human sacrificial ritual and ripping of flesh and pouring of blood?
Is the closest thing to this gods heart transferring of sins ?
Is the closest thing to this gods heart making children inherit the sins of adam and CREATING them “born in sin”
i quote :
We are told about and expected to believe the reports of a god that no one can know and no one can please (but jeesus, mind you) but yet they’re the authority on this god… does this make sense? If they are even remotely correct on their slam-fest of God, how is it that they know what God is like? Are they merely believing and PROMULGATING second-hand information? Were people like King David, the Prophet Moses, the Patriarchs, the Later Prophets lying when they ascribed adjectives of “mercy, loving kindness, abundant compassion and comforting” to this “vengeful” God? But they claim it’s the same god they serve! Were these biblical personalities wrong in their assessment of God and these xians who really don’t have a relationship with God (or a relationship by proxy) possessing the “true” relationship? And can you really have a relationship via proxy? How intimate is a relationship if you have to go through someone else to have a simple conversation with the one you’re to have a relationship with–and with a person (or in this case god) who, were it not for jeesus, would consider you worm fodder and banish you? REmember, according to xians, without jeesus no one could know god or have a relationship with him. So is jeesus our ticket to a relationship with god, or the wool pulled over god’s eyes (and our own) with regard to the true relationship? Or are we really just having a relationship with ourselves and this belief in jeesus is a mere distraction from the reality that no one can know this unreachable god? Is there anything more pathetic and more sad than to have a relationship by proxy; knowing the Object of your supposed loyalty and devotion doesn’t love you but only tolerates you because of someone else? Take that piece away and we’re back to the fundamental view of this “god” to his creation. What does that really say about this “god”?
no set of lies is more damning and more self-serving than to tell people that they are defective from birth, can never know God, cannot improve themselves and they are damned for all eternity unless you believe their variant/cult and to believe otherwise is the ultimate delusion. Are there any lies WORSE to not only one’s soul but one’s perception of the CREATOR HIMSELF??????? Is there anything MORE disgusting to the very Mercy, Compassion and “You can do it!” encouragement given by God Himself (even right in the VERY opening chapters of Genesis—- God tells Cain he can overcome evil! This from a “vengeful, can-never-please-Him” God!)? Is there any sin greater than to have one of God’s creations believe they can never know Him without any aides, “blood tricks” and “redemption coupons” from Jeesus?
The lies of these xians is “God knows you can’t have a relationship with him because you’re dirty, worthless, vile and wretched .. you’re spiritual trash. Only a bloody go between can mend the bridge”. They lie about God and also fail to ask the obvious.. what person would WANT a relationship with someone who will only see you as less than.. and only by the CHARITY of another can you come into a “relationship” with this person? Who wants a relationship with a god who only allows you to come into his presence via a proxy.. can it even be called a relationship? I think this is the most vile lie ever devised… lying about God and then LYING about the inherent potential (and the “god spark” ALL people have!) just so you can form an emotional attachment to jeesus.
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“How could the CROSS stand to bear the True Lord when He was fastened”?
It seems that even Jesus refers to the implication of this belief.
“You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?Matthew 23:18-19.
As a result, the cross is greater than the lord.
The same poem.
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The poem is a very good refutation of the trinity. If we stop and look at the following line: Were the heavens vacated, when He laid under the ground somewhere?, we can easily identify a major flaw in the trinity. Since Jesus is fully the One God, it follows that the One God indeed died and was buried irrespective of the fact that there are other members in the trinity. There is a price to pay for saying that the three members are the One God and that they are not each one third of a god or three gods. That price is that whatever befalls one also affects the godhead, since all three and each one is God. If, on the other hand, the Christians said that there are three gods, it would be easier to refute this line. However, that would invite other criticisms.
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A good old 1400-year piece of advise: Desist, don’t say three!!
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well Jesus seems to oppose modern christians
as emphasized Jesus have a God and he was fasting and praying to his God its interesting to see modern christians calls people to worship Jesus while on the other hand Jesus was calling people to worship God!!
“ That is Jesus, the son of Mary the word of truth about which they are in dispute ” ( Mary 19:34 )
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Joel
November 1, 2017 • 6:55 pm
fawaz
“Jesus is a spirit FROM God.”
And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples.
This sounds a lot like a plural god talking about his own spirit in 21:91.
“The Quran does not say God transferred His essence to Mary’s womb.”
Fallacy of equivocation – The text CLEARLY states that god breathes his spirit into Mary.
I say;
Who tells you “breath our spirit” means God Himself? Where did you get that from? Apparently from your pagan brain.
Genesis 2:7
New International Version
Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
Is Adam God? Because God breath “breath of life” into him and so the “breath of life” is God? because the “breath of life” came from God?
You see my friend, you are the only Christian making this nonsense here. It is no wonder,because you believed everything that came from God such as goat is God. You believed a goat is only one and there are no other goats and therefore your worship of a creature man-Jesus thinking the 3 persons like 3 goats are not MANY but one.
You believed God’s word is God Himself, His Mercy is God Himself, His wisdom is God Himself, His knowledge is God Himself and all attributes of God are each God Himself, so you worship each. You will be roasted in hell fire if you don’t lear1n from me today that God’s attributes are each not God Himself because God’s attribute is not a being.
God is a being. A person is a being. God is one being because He is not created. Humans, goats, pigs etc. and Jesus included are created and therefore can be counted more than one like goat= 1goat+1goat+1goat=3goats and Trinity God = 1 person + 1 person + 1 person = 3 persons counted just like how goats can be counted and that is your God is like goat because they are all MANY.
The God of the Bible is 1 and no ONE else. Do you understand “NO ONE ELSE”? and “NOTHING ELSE”. Unless your persons in Trinity are “no one else” or “nothing else” they cannot be added to the one God of the Bible. What I know is that Jesus is a man and therefore he is someone else and so cannot be added to God who is 1 and no one else.
Thanks.
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“Dominating” is not the right word bro. God withheld his full divine power in some way – we don;t think that jesus’ human nature overpowered his divinity.”
so your got was like a stripped chicken?
think about the shit you are saying
minus power from god, then you WRECK his other attributes.
your god has FULL experiential experience of seeing like a human, not as a omni god because his power was withheld from him ,which surely would effect his omni attributes
how can you havE omniscience without power ?
have can you have all control WITHOUT power?
” This is the essence of the incarnation – god loves his created beings so much that he took full physical”
so he can’t love them while his person has his omni powers in him? so the father was an unloving person because he did not have experiential feelings of roman nailing and whipping ?
the daddy in trinity had ABSOLUTELY no feeling/experience of getting RAPED by the romans in the incarnation, does that mean the daddy is unloving ?
god “loves so much” that he said “if you don’t believe i came Back TO life (even though i am omni everliving) i will PUNISH you worse than i punished myself
your god is a FRAUD .
soldiers die for country
lovers die for women
martyrs die for religion
your god dies because he can’t forgive expect by TRANSFERRING the sins and punishing himself like a fuckin SELF ABUSER.
if NORMAL HUMANs can go to their DEATH with ABSOLUTELY no knowledge of when, where and how the suffering will end, then humans must be greater than your god, since your god BEGGED his dad to SAVE him from crucifixion. he begged him 3 times to save him.
normal humans can do greater than an incarnated human since they dont beg to be saved from death.
” punishment for man’s sin onto himself.”
was that same “withheld” power USED to punish your god? did the “withheld” divine nature WHACK a person from trinity ? WHY DOES THE MASTER OF THE UNIVERSE WHO ANSWERS TO NO ONE, NO KING, NO RULER, NOTHING, just FORGIVE without RITUALLY getting PUNISHED by his own POWERS?
did his powers TEMPORARILY become GOD?
” In order to do this he incarnated as fully human whilst simultaneously existing as fully divine.”
fully divine TRUMPS fully human, but fully human = created , so how is this god getting TRASHED by his powers and at the same time NOT getting trashed by his own powers ?
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“No, it;s like saying god is capable of withholding his power whilst simultaneously maintaining full divinity in some other manner.”
does this crap make sense?
WITHIN THE person of your god EXISTS THE EXPERIENTIAL feeling .
let me explain
imagine the person of the father BECAME BLIND and let BLINDNESS take over his person, this means in his KNOWLEDGE/FEELING ,he would experience BLINDNESS and have feeling of it.
the person of the father is omniscient, so in his person he is BLIND too.
father – omniscience + blindness
but OMNISIENCE is WITHIN the person and is a PERMANENT BEGININGLESS attribute, so what this implies is that the father IN his OMNISCIENCE fully experiences what it is TO be blind.
god withholds power from his omniscience, so in this CHANGED condition, he EXPERIENCES blindness.
so now in his CHANGED person has full experiences of being blind and deformed and disabled.
your “simultaneous” BULLSHIT is not going to take away the fact that your god in his NEW form is CHANGED and now in his SELF , he KNOWS the feeling of getting TAKEN over by DISABILITY.
father MINUS omniscience + blindness
so when father takes away omniscience from his person, what kind of CREATURE do you have BEFORE he adds on BLINDNESS?
is BLINDNESS a change to his person?
while in the CONDITION of being BLIND, is his person DOMINATED by being BLIND?
i will repeat this question
WHILE the father is BLIND, is his person DOMINATED by blindness?
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http://www.debunking-christianity.com/2017/11/the-triple-tragedy-of-human-sacrifice.html
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@Heathcliff, hey brother, you’re back! where were you bro?
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you don’t know how happy i am to see you again…funny coincidence is that i’m also going to be absent from here for some days perhaps, my exams are starting tomorrow…wish me luck….
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Hope you pass your exams, insha’allah!
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