Muslims don’t believe in superiority because all the prophets teach from the same source.
Quran 2/136
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Blogging Theology 
Mr Brown raises an important point.
Let’s assume his understanding of “Christianity” really is the final, best, non-plus ultra superior act of God ending all sin and death saving all humanity putting everything right without any doubt hunky dory again etc pp. Crushing Satan’s head once and for all. We got it.
And then God lets false Islam loose? Superior timing, really superior.
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Great Response to Dr. Brown from our own Paul Williams – “…and its not bigotry to say that!” LOL!!
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Mr Williams,
Muslims come from all over the world to the grave of Muhammed in Medina while the grave of Jesus is empty; for He is risen, He is risen indeed.
God Bless
Jonathan S
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Why don’t you say that your god needed to be risen because he was DEAD!
Our God doesn’t!
‘And rely upon the Ever-Living who does not die, and exalt [ Allah ] with His praise. And sufficient is He to be, with the sins of His servants, Acquainted -” QT
Where’s the comparison? 🙂
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The empty grave is a mirage just like “true Christianity” or the three-personal Lord. Just nowhere to be found.
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Jonathan, we too believe that God saved Jesus from his enemies and is now with God. But the error you make is to believe Jesus was Yahweh who then was killed by men. God does not die. Your own scriptures teach this.
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Remember Mr Williams,
None of the companions of Muhammed said he rose from the dead, while all the companions of Jesus said Jesus rose from the dead. He is risen indeed which a companion of Jesus said.
God Bless
Jonathan S
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Jonathan S
Most people do not have graves. Does that make them God? I want to see the grave of Michael Servetus.
Risen? We will all be risen. Are we God?
rise
rīz/Submit
verb
past participle: risen
1.
move from a lower position to a higher one; come or go up.
“the tiny aircraft rose from the ground”
2.
get up from lying, sitting, or kneeling.
“she pushed back her chair and rose”
synonyms: stand up, get to one’s feet, get up, jump up, leap up; formalarise
“he rose from his chair”
Source: https://www.google.ca/search?q=what+is+risen&rlz=1C1AVFC_enCA772CA772&oq=what+is+risen&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.4705j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
All the above does not make one a God.
Adam does not have father and mother but Jesus had mother. Is Adam superior to Jesus?
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Jonathan:
“all the companions of Jesus said Jesus rose from the dead”
Can you point me in the direction of something that an eyewitness/companion has written for me to check?
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Of course Mr Williams:
KJV Luke 1:1-3:
“Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, 2Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; 3It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus”
KJV John 19:35
And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
KJV John 21:24
“This is the disciple who testifies of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true”
KJV John 3:11
“Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness”
Now Mr Williams, could you give me a companion of Muhammad who witnessed that Muhammed rose from the dead. Fair is fair.
God Bless
Jonathan S
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Oh dear Jonathan, please do pay attention to what I asked you. Here it is again:
Can you point me in the direction of something that an eyewitness/companion has *written* for me to check?
I want a text written by an eyewitness and companion of Jesus. And for good measure I would like his or her name and confirmation from you that it is not a forgery.
Have another go dude…
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Mr Williams,
you stated [I want a text written by an eyewitness and companion of Jesus. And for good measure I would like his or her name and confirmation from you that it is not a forgery. ]
I gave you John the Apostle – Ireneus who is in succession to John the Apostle states, “Finally John, the disciple of the Lord, who had also lain on his breast, himself published the Gospel, while he was residing at Ephesus in Asia” Mr Williams, what forgery are you talking about. Ireneus is a witness to the official foster churches of St. John at Smyrna and his Bishop Polycarp was appointed by John the Apostle according to Tertullian. Remember, Tertullian also confirms this testimony at the opposite ends of the empire stating John published a Gospel and was received by the apostolic churches.
Mr Williams – we can establish the legal chain of custody for the text of John and this is the independent testimony of the Latin Apostolic Churches, the Greek Apostolic churches and the Aramiac Apostolic Churches, churches that trace back to the apostles through their succession of bishops. this is what Irenaeus means when he says “The Tradition of the apostles made clear in all the world can be clearly seen in every church by those who wish to behold the truth. We can enumerate those who were established by the apostles as bishops in the churches and their successors down to our time.”
Remember, Mr Williams, we were well aware of attempted forgies in the ancient world, but if you notice, the gnostics texts all disagreed with one another. yet the apostolic churches (Greek, Latin & Aramiac) all came up with the same 4 gospels naming the same authors for texts that didn’t have the name on it. in any normal court of law that would be decisive.
Mr Williams, you seem to keep ignoring the Apostolic Polity. We know how our churches were set up and organized. The Anglican church uses the same Polity – so you should definitly understand what I’m talking about.
God bless,
Jonathan S
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“None of the companions of Muhammed said he rose from the dead, while all the companions of Jesus said Jesus rose from the dead. He is risen indeed which a companion of Jesus said.”
okay, who saw your god rise from the dead? no one. who saw him exit the tomb? no one?no one. if we look at the evidence, no early kristian is USING “minimal facts” of william lane craig, paul does not say that a TOMB was DISCOVERED or that peter went to the tomb to check if it was empty. paul receives a vision , the “empty tomb” was not convincing enough. .
none of the companions of jesus EVEN saw an EMPTY tomb, if we go by marks account, they ALREADY RAN off and the women tell NOTHING to anyone .
in matthew, the text says that the companions go to galilee and have a vision and SOME DOUBTED .
what was the doubt? did they apostatise? did they even know it was jesus? why didn’t matthew tell us more about this doubt?
you said “he is risen”
but the EARLIEST evidence says “SOME DOUBTED”
“unrecognised for HOURS”
how could they know he is RISEN, when they did not know where he was BURIED and neither of them CHECKED an empty tomb. MARK AND MATTHEW explicitly hint that PETER did not even check the tomb
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did iraneus say that polycarp said that john was the author of the gospel of john ?
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this was the relevant video
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Churches are being sold and converted to Mosques in some western countries. May be Islam is their first hope. Most Christians are becoming atheist i.e. Dr. Bart Erhman.
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“And they say, “None will enter Paradise except one who is a Jew or a Christian.” That is [merely] their wishful thinking, Say, “Produce your proof, if you should be truthful.
Yes [on the contrary], whoever submits his face in Islam to Allah while being a doer of good will have his reward with his Lord. And no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.” QT 2:111-112
The Prophet (ﷺ) said, “Your example and the example of the people of the two Scriptures (i.e. Jews and Christians) is like the example of a man who employed some laborers and asked them, ‘Who will work for me from morning till midday for one Qirat?’ The Jews accepted and carried out the work. He then asked, Who will work for me from midday up to the `Asr prayer for one Qirat?’ The Christians accepted and fulfilled the work. He then said, ‘Who will work for me from the `Asr till sunset for two Qirats?’ You, Muslims have accepted the offer. The Jews and the Christians got angry and said, ‘Why should we work more and get lesser wages?’ (Allah) said, ‘Have I withheld part of your right?’ They replied in the negative. He said, ‘It is My Blessing, I bestow upon whomever I wish .’ Sahah Al Bukhari
Christians may find that in Matthew 20:1-16.
Finally, I affirm what br .Paul said. We have been instructed to not have this attitude of comparison between the prophets of Allah.
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Seen on twitter:
The popular worship song “He is Yahweh” includes this lyric:
“The Three in One, He is Yahweh”
So the Trinity is a “He”. Is that he one of the three persons? Or is it a fourth that is a composite of the three? In that case, God would be four persons: 3 plus the composite 4th. 🤔
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Oh yeah!
What about the song titled ( Mary did you know),more than 166,000,000 views on Youtube?
“This child that you’ve delivered, will soon deliver you”…”And when you kiss your little baby, you have kissed the face of God” ?
So dr Brown was really talking about superiority ?😪
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Great point if you want to get evangelical preacher off your back.
They avoid the fourth person that is not allowed to be a person like the plague.
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“Muslims don’t believe in superiority because all the prophets teach from the same source.
Quran 2/136“
Short memory Paul? Remember this?
“Dialogue’ comes easily to us, since Islam is the best of Judaism and the best of Christianity”
Or this?
“You are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind; you enjoin Al-Ma`ruf (all that Islam has ordained) and forbid Al-Munkar (all that Islam has forbidden), and you believe in Allah. And had the People of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) believed, it would have been better for them; among them are some who have faith, but most of them are Fasiqun (rebellious)“
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But the Judaism as we know is not the one brought by Moses. And don’t get me started with your Christianity. So the first quote is just a red herring.
As for the second quote it talks about the people, not the religions brought by the people. And please do read carefully what it says: “You are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind; you enjoin Al-Ma`ruf (all that Islam has ordained) and forbid Al-Munkar (all that Islam has forbidden), and you believe in Allah. ”
It’s about those that do righteous deeds and abstain from sins that are considered to be the best of mankind. It even says that among the Jews and Christians there are righteous/those with faith which acknowledges that it’s about being righteous in the eyes of God that makes someone better.
Is the one that accepts all Prophets not better than the one that rejects some?
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“But the Judaism as we know is not the one brought by Moses. And don’t get me started with your Christianity. So the first quote is just a red herring.“
What? This doesn’t even make sense. Re read what I wrote.
“As for the second quote it talks about the people, not the religions brought by the people“
I agree. Which is why when Paul says “Muslims don’t believe in superiority” it makes it all the more relevant.
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Wth are you talking about?
You quoted: Muslims don’t believe in superiority because all the prophets teach from the same source.
Quran 2/136
I’m telling you that all the prophets didn’t teach Judaism or Christianity as we know it. Remember that Islam teaches that all prophets were Muslims.
When PW quoted that he meant that we don’t believe in superiority of what all the prophet taught. And this is 100% true! Then you go ahead and quote something which is a complete red herring because Judaism and Christianity aren’t the religions that any prophet has taught. It’s quite simple really.
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Oh I see. Your fabricating lies that Moses was somehow a closet Muslim. Makes sense now…
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Lol you know full well what I mean by that. And nice way of not answering what I have said. Typical xtian behavior. You bitchslap them into a corner and then they start whining.
Just accept the bitchslap and grow up. But no you’ll just whine like a lil pig and claim a shallow victory as usual.
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10 “If he fathers a son who is violent, a shedder of blood, who does any of these things 11 (though he himself did none of these things), who even eats upon the mountains, defiles his neighbor’s wife, 12 oppresses the poor and needy, commits robbery, does not restore the pledge, lifts up his eyes to the idols, commits abomination, 13 lends at interest, and takes profit; shall he then live? He shall not live. He has done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon himself.
14 “Now suppose this man fathers a son who sees all the sins that his father has done; he sees, and does not do likewise: 15 he does not eat upon the mountains or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, does not defile his neighbor’s wife, 16 does not oppress anyone, exacts no pledge, commits no robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment, 17 withholds his hand from iniquity,[c] takes no interest or profit, obeys my rules, and walks in my statutes; he shall not die for his father’s iniquity; he shall surely live. 18 As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother, and did what is not good among his people, behold, he shall die for his iniquity.
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Atlas, except the Torah, which muhammad affirmed, contradicts you. So too the injeel.
So yes, you are fabricating lies that the former prophets were Muslims. I honestly don’t know how Muslims can accept such a dumb premise, but then again, Islam forces people into believing ridiculous things through the threat of shame.
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“Atlas, except the Torah, which muhammad affirmed, contradicts you. So too the injeel.”
Yes he most certainly does but we don’t have those books today. Only potato books called old and new testaments.
Proof:
Abu Abdullah Muhammad Ibn Abdullah As-Saffar told us: Ahmad Ibn Mahdi Ibn Rustum Al-Asfahani told us: Mu’azh Ibn Hisham Ad-Distwani told us: my father told me: Al-Qasim Ibn ‘Awf Ash-Shaybani told me: Mu’azh Ibn Jabal – radiya Allahu ‘anhu – told us that he went to Sham and saw the Christians prostrate to their Bishops and priests and saw the Jews prostrate to their Rabbis and scholars. He said, “Why do you do this?” they answered, “This is the greeting of Prophets (peace be upon him)”. I said, “We better do this to our Prophet”. Allah’s Prophet – salla Allahu ‘alaihi wa sallam – said, “THEY LIED ABOUT THEIR PROPHETS JUST AS THEY DISTORTED THEIR BOOK.If I were to command anyone to prostrate to anyone, I would command woman to prostrate to her husband for his great right upon her. No woman will taste the sweetness of Faith till she does her husband’s rights even if he asks herself while she is on a Qutub” (Al-Hakim commented, “This hadith is authentic according to standards of Al-Bukhari and Muslim, but they did not relate it” This hadith was also related by At-Tabarani in “Al-Mu’jam Al-Kabir” vol. 8, p.31 but it includes An-Nahhas Ibn Fahm who is a weak narrator. Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal related it with a sound chain of transmission in his Musnad vol. 4, p. 381 (online source) with the following chain: ‘Abdullah told us: my father (Ibn Hanbal) told me: Mu’azh Ibn Hisham told us: my father told me: Al-Qasim Ibn ‘Awf – a man from Al-Kufa, one of Bani Murra Ibn Hammam – told me: Mu’azh Ibn Jabal – radiya Allahu ‘anhu – told us that .. and mentioned the hadith. This hadith has been authenticated by Ibn Hajar Al Haytami in his Majma’ Al Zawaaid, Volume 4, page 312. He said of the narrators in the chain ‘their men are men of authenticity’ )
And
The Bani Israel wrote a book, they followed it and left the Torah. (This hadith was reported in Tabarani’s Al Mu’jam Al Awsat and was authenticated by Sheikh Nasr Al Deen Al Albani in his Silsila Al Ahaadeeth Al Saheeha, hadith no. 2832.)
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand
The Bani Israel as a long time passed and their hearts became hardened, they invented a book from themselves. It took over their hearts and their tongues. (This hadith was reported in Al Bayhaqi’s Shu’b Al Eemaan, Volume 2, no.439. Sheikh Nasr Al Deen Al Albani has authenticated this hadith in his Silsila Al Ahaadeeth Al Saheeha, hadith no. 2694.)
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand
Volume 9, Book 93, Number 614:
Narrated ‘Ubaidullah bin ‘Abdullah:
‘Abdullah bin ‘Abbaas said, “O the group of Muslims! How can you ask the people of the Scriptures about anything while your Book which Allah has revealed to your Prophet contains the most recent news from Allah and is pure and not distorted? Allah has told you that the people of the Scriptures have changed some of Allah’s Books and distorted it and wrote something with their own hands and said, ‘This is from Allah, so as to have a minor gain for it. Won’t the knowledge that has come to you stop you from asking them? No, by Allah, we have never seen a man from them asking you about that (the Book Al-Qur’an ) which has been revealed to you.
“So yes, you are fabricating lies that the former prophets were Muslims. I honestly don’t know how Muslims can accept such a dumb premise, but then again, Islam forces people into believing ridiculous things through the threat of shame.””
So no, you are fabricating lies that Islam teaches the Torah and Injeel are still intact and being followed by Christians and Jews. I honestly don’t know how Christians can accept such a dumb premise as what you stated above, but then again, Christianity forces people into believe ridiculous things through the threat of shame. And your cult makes you believe the most retarded things, even things that are logical contradictions like your mangod and trinity.
Bitchslap!
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Sorry Pal, but we all know there were hundreds of thousands of fabricated hadiths. Imagine that, Muslims lying about what muhammad said to suit their agenda. Not much changes.
It might be helpful fo you to know that Hadith of such and such that somebody apparently authenticated doesn’t really persuade me. Nor is it proof.
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“Sorry Pal, but we all know there were hundreds of thousands of fabricated hadiths. Imagine that, Muslims lying about what muhammad said to suit their agenda. Not much changes.
It might be helpful fo you to know that Hadith of such and such that somebody apparently authenticated doesn’t really persuade me. Nor is it proof.”
LOL which is just another way of saying you have NO ANSWER. Buahahahahaha!!!
What a pathetic response. Of course you’re going to have fabricated hadiths. But we have methods of authenticating hadiths. You don’t have anything really. I mean for God’s sake your own bible scholars debating the authenticity of your 4 gospels. If you’re going to reject just our hadiths because it bitchslaps you to the moon then I guess this debate is over and you lost. BADLY.
Besides weren’t there countless of documents invented by unknown people claiming to be disciples which got rejected by your early churchdaddies? SO I guess just because of that I can now say your entire new testament is pure fiction.
Not that you or your churchdaddies have any valid authentication methods to begin with.
If you’re going to reject our methods of authentications then I guess we don’t know anything about history! Let alone what happened during the early stages of Crosstianity!
Wahahahahahaha! I can’t believe how silly you crossworshipers can get. Rejecting hadiths that clearly contradict your lies and I’m supposed to take this pathetic response seriously?
Debate over!
Now go back to sleep.
Jesus loves you kid!
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The methods of authentication come from the very documents you seek to authenticate. Ergo, circular reasoning. Let that sink in a bit.
Hearsay isn’t evidence. It’s just hearsay. And given that hundreds of thousands of sayings were fabricated by Your fellow muhammad worshippers, it’s hard to put any faith in them. Even today there is no agreement on what is sahih.
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“The methods of authentication come from the very documents you seek to authenticate. Ergo, circular reasoning”
No you just don’t understand the method of authentication.
Here is a chain
A-B-C-D
The authenticator works backwards, starting from D working all the way back to A. It’s not circular, you idiot. How else are you going to authenticate something???
You use smaller chains (starting from the smallest chain, here you only need to know the last person in the chain to be reliable to authenticate the hadith) to authenticate bigger chains. It’s a process that works backwards. This is the best and only way to know anything about an oral tradition. If you have anything better then please my dear lil pagan friend, present it to us.
Hearsay? Is that your response? So basically we can know NOTHING of oral tradition and hence the christian new testament is pure bullshit then? Remember that your ‘gospels’ are based on ORAL tradition.
“And given that hundreds of thousands of sayings were fabricated by Your fellow muhammad worshippers”
No, only a portion were fabricated by them. There are portions that were transmitted by unknown people and hence we can’t know whether they are Muslims or not. Some transmitted through people with bad memory. This is exactly what you expect!
People will make up stuff to suite their own agenda. Every person of interest in history has stuff made up about them, including your mangod!!!! Hellooooooooooooooooooo! It’s so painfully obvious!
But seriously, this is your response???
So there are fabricated hadith and this ‘PROVES’ that the ones that are authenticated are unreliable???
To bad anyone with a few braincells will laugh right in your face. And like always you dodge my questions like a coward. We know countless of documents were forged by people about Jesus (and not just oral sayings btw!!!) and how exactly does this not bitchslap your own comicbook?
Hell you even have forgeries in you NT like 2 Peter. LOL!!!
“Hearsay isn’t evidence. It’s just hearsay”
Hearsay implies hearing something from someone which you know nothing about that person. That’s not what the hadiths are. We know exactly who these people are.
But the NT however is based on hearsay!
We know next to NOTHING about your oral tradition. Hence why your own scholars are laughing at the authenticity of your bible.
And AGAIN apply what you just said to the oral tradition of the gospels. And let’s pretend your old testament isn’t based on oral tradition either (of HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS of years). LOL!
“Even today there is no agreement on what is sahih”
Aam can you give some details on what you mean exactly? There are a few hadiths that are disputed. So how does this prove anything you’re implying? It doesn’t. You’re so clearly desperate and don’t want to accept defeat just to save face.
It’s funny how this conversation went from you lying about the Prophet (saw) teaching that the Torah and Injeel are still intact to’ the hadiths are unreliable’.
O dear God you crosstians are beyond pathetic!
But like I said: Jesus loves you kiddo!
So keep lying to yourself. I’m sure you’ll be magically forgiven for that just by believing someone paid for your sins/crimes.
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Paulus:
But but but but your hadiths are hearsay.
Hahllelujah!
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pauliz, are you saying somebody did textual criticism and then invented the following hadeeths ?
Abu Abdullah Muhammad Ibn Abdullah As-Saffar told us: Ahmad Ibn Mahdi Ibn Rustum Al-Asfahani told us: Mu’azh Ibn Hisham Ad-Distwani told us: my father told me: Al-Qasim Ibn ‘Awf Ash-Shaybani told me: Mu’azh Ibn Jabal – radiya Allahu ‘anhu – told us that he went to Sham and saw the Christians prostrate to their Bishops and priests and saw the Jews prostrate to their Rabbis and scholars. He said, “Why do you do this?” they answered, “This is the greeting of Prophets (peace be upon him)”. I said, “We better do this to our Prophet”. Allah’s Prophet – salla Allahu ‘alaihi wa sallam – said, “THEY LIED ABOUT THEIR PROPHETS JUST AS THEY DISTORTED THEIR BOOK.If I were to command anyone to prostrate to anyone, I would command woman to prostrate to her husband for his great right upon her. No woman will taste the sweetness of Faith till she does her husband’s rights even if he asks herself while she is on a Qutub” (Al-Hakim commented, “This hadith is authentic according to standards of Al-Bukhari and Muslim, but they did not relate it” This hadith was also related by At-Tabarani in “Al-Mu’jam Al-Kabir” vol. 8, p.31 but it includes An-Nahhas Ibn Fahm who is a weak narrator. Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal related it with a sound chain of transmission in his Musnad vol. 4, p. 381 (online source) with the following chain: ‘Abdullah told us: my father (Ibn Hanbal) told me: Mu’azh Ibn Hisham told us: my father told me: Al-Qasim Ibn ‘Awf – a man from Al-Kufa, one of Bani Murra Ibn Hammam – told me: Mu’azh Ibn Jabal – radiya Allahu ‘anhu – told us that .. and mentioned the hadith. This hadith has been authenticated by Ibn Hajar Al Haytami in his Majma’ Al Zawaaid, Volume 4, page 312. He said of the narrators in the chain ‘their men are men of authenticity’ )
And
The Bani Israel wrote a book, they followed it and left the Torah. (This hadith was reported in Tabarani’s Al Mu’jam Al Awsat and was authenticated by Sheikh Nasr Al Deen Al Albani in his Silsila Al Ahaadeeth Al Saheeha, hadith no. 2832.)
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand
The Bani Israel as a long time passed and their hearts became hardened, they invented a book from themselves. It took over their hearts and their tongues. (This hadith was reported in Al Bayhaqi’s Shu’b Al Eemaan, Volume 2, no.439. Sheikh Nasr Al Deen Al Albani has authenticated this hadith in his Silsila Al Ahaadeeth Al Saheeha, hadith no. 2694.)
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand
Volume 9, Book 93, Number 614:
Narrated ‘Ubaidullah bin ‘Abdullah:
‘Abdullah bin ‘Abbaas said, “O the group of Muslims! How can you ask the people of the Scriptures about anything while your Book which Allah has revealed to your Prophet contains the most recent news from Allah and is pure and not distorted? Allah has told you that the people of the Scriptures have changed some of Allah’s Books and distorted it and wrote something with their own hands and said, ‘This is from Allah, so as to have a minor gain for it. Won’t the knowledge that has come to you stop you from asking them? No, by Allah, we have never seen a man from them asking you about that (the Book Al-Qur’an ) which has been revealed to you.
this is clearly in an ENVIRONMENT where people know that the “holy bible” is corrupt.
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pauliz , what type of environment was your alleged fabricator living in ?
in an enviroment where people believed that quran endorses corrupt “holy” bible?
was this fabricator intelligent ?he discovered that the bible is corrupt and shot book? anyone can discover the bible is corrupt, just juxtapose the stories.
if the fabricator believed that one should rule by the quran, why would he fabricate hadeeth in an enviroment where quran endorses bible?
so is it possible that your alleged fabricator was living in enviroment where people already believed bible is shot and corrupted?
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allah(god) is superior to all. mailman can be toll short yang old male female etc etc. but end of the day we have to pay the bills. no matter whose mailman superior. mailman dont pay the bills.if he dies after the delivery of the bills we still have to pay bills.
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Did you use google translate or something? Cause this is some intense waffle…
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Paulus
You said sin is punished on the forgiveness thread. I wrote a lot of response explaining to you why sin cannot be punished because sin is abstract. It is living things that can be punished. Humans, demons, monkeys, elephants can be punished then get the pain but not sin itself.
So, Jesus dying on the cross did not punish sin because sin cannot be punished. It is important for Christians to know this. When Jesus, the Trinity believing Christians God created hell, he is going to punish human beings and not sin itself because sin cannot be punished. Forgiveness is to free the human being or any living thing from punishment because of his repentance.
If there is punishment, then there is no forgiveness. This is very simple thing to understand.
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Muslims have a weak view or understanding of sin because you follow one man. Your comment reveals this difference
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And Christians misunderstand Sin because they follow one man… Saul of Tarsus (not Jesus).
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Paulus
Forgiveness – the excusing of an offense without a penalty.
On the above thread, you said “sin is punished”. I did not understand why you believed “sin” which is abstract can be punished. It is not about Islam, Christianity or one man or more than one man but it is about truth. You are not truthful when you said “sin is punished” because that cannot happen. It is a living thing i.e. human, demon etc. which committed the sin is eligible for punishment and not the sin itself.
So, do you think “sin” can be punished?
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paulus, please can you explain what happened to your idol
1. he committed all the sins of past, present and future
2. all sins of past, present and future poured on jesus. jesus became the object of ALL sinful actions like rape, murder , idolatry
3. the father saw all sins and took it out on jesus to cool off
if jesus had everything poured on him, why do you think the father rescued him from eternal damnation ?
if jesus was polluted with sin, why do you call a new born baby “born in sin” even though it did no sin ?
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“Muslims have a weak view or understanding of sin because you follow one man. Your comment reveals this difference”
but you are only paying lip service . you are saying the above while at the same time you believe ALL your future sins have no consequence.
it is you who does not care about sin.
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“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.“
Intellect, your abstract idea of sin is Islamic, not what the former prophets taught. Ergo, it’s muhammads doctrine and your rejection of the former prophets is telling
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Paulus
Do you believe sin can be punished? Tell me, which prophet teaches that sin can be punished? “The wages of sin is death” does not mean sin is punished. It means the sinner will be punished unless he sincerely repents and God out of His Mercy will forgive the repentant person free of charge. No blood of Jesus Christ.
That is what all the prophets of God taught. Abraham, Moses, Isaac and Jesus himself never preached the blood of Jesus Christ is a detergent that washes away sins. Christians are still sinning like anyone else. They are not special when it comes to sin. Where is the blood of Jesus here?
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Just another liar intellect. The text is clear and yet you try to islamise the text. Shame on you little muhammad worshipper
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Paulus
Yes the text is clear. It does not say sin itself can be punished. Christians will always choose ambiguous texts to prove their point. This is not ambiguous but clear. There are more clear verses in the Bible that says it is the soul which sins that get punished but not the sin itself.
The Bible says the SOUL, SOUL, SOUL, SOUL who sins shall die. It did not say when a soul sins, the sin shall die because sin is abstract it cannot be punished. So, convert to Islam today Paulus. Why? Because you are not truthful when you say “sin must be punished”. If your religion says so, or that is the untruth you preach, then you will account to that lies on the day of judgement.
Read it from the Bible.
Ezekiel 18 English Standard Version (ESV)
The Soul Who Sins Shall Die
18 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “What do you[a] mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel, ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge’? 3 As I live, declares the Lord God, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel. 4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.
10 “If he fathers a son who is violent, a shedder of blood, who does any of these things 11 (though he himself did none of these things), who even eats upon the mountains, defiles his neighbor’s wife, 12 oppresses the poor and needy, commits robbery, does not restore the pledge, lifts up his eyes to the idols, commits abomination, 13 lends at interest, and takes profit; shall he then live? He shall not live. He has done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon himself.
14 “Now suppose this man fathers a son who sees all the sins that his father has done; he sees, and does not do likewise: 15 he does not eat upon the mountains or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, does not defile his neighbor’s wife, 16 does not oppress anyone, exacts no pledge, commits no robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment, 17 withholds his hand from iniquity,[c] takes no interest or profit, obeys my rules, and walks in my statutes; he shall not die for his father’s iniquity; he shall surely live. 18 As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother, and did what is not good among his people, behold, he shall die for his iniquity.
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Correction: It is the soul who sins shall die says the Bible. Not sin must be punished. Paulus, show me where the Bible says “sin must be punished”. If you can’t, then you lied not me.
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Paulus
Quran: 3: 185
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
Every soul will taste death, and you will only be given your [full] compensation on the Day of Resurrection. So he who is drawn away from the Fire and admitted to Paradise has attained [his desire]. And what is the life of this world except the enjoyment of delusion.
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The Christian definition of forgiveness is very flawed and does hasty generalization,how can you believe in a religion when the religion itself is based on Fallacies,let-alone the arguments from it?
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pauliz , after you read why God allows killing of innocent children in Tsunamis, in punishments of the past…. can you tell me why this same God cannot forgive WITHOUT blood of “innocent” human ?
i quote :
1: God is the one who has created everything before which it was nothing. Including all animate and inanimate things.
2: God alone is the (efficient) Cause of all things and the events (material causes and formal causes) that bring about these created things.
3: God alone can bring immeasurable pleasure and unbearable pain to any being.
4: Since God is The Source and The Sustainer of all things, God alone is also The Sovereign over all.
5: All events such as natural deaths as well as natural disasters are caused by God through the natural causes, processes, mechanism that we are familiar with.
6: So therefore God is responsible for any kind of natural death as much as for any kind of traumatic death.
With regards to attributing evil to God due to natural disaster, then know that end result of it is no different from natural deaths, or even the extreme reckless actions of an adrenaline junkie. If we attribute evil to God for tsunamis then logically we should attribute evil to God for natural deaths or extreme recklessness as well as for all sickness and diseases and accidents since God is the source of all these things (through the natural processes, causes and mechanism, of course).
However the BIG QUESTION is can God be attributed with evil? Is it considered immoral if God punishes a city and causes to die even the infants and the mentally disabled?
///////
Continuing the previous comment.
In Islamic ethics. Ideals such as Compassion, Kindness, Justice, Honesty, Integrity, Gratitude, Patience, Wisdom etc are considered universal values which transcend time and place. Meaning no people has had dispute about the need to apply and live by these ideals. The only thing that differed were the modality of the said application and implementation.
It is believed that God is the exemplar and source of these ideals and the creator of the instinctive and intuitive acceptance of these values in the human Fitra (innate disposition). Hence all of God’s names represent the said qualities. Now when it comes to actions of God all of it are according to these ideal because as mentioned earlier God is by nature qualified with these qualities. So when ever God does something it’s the manifestation of these qualities.
But what right does God have in causing natural disasters that kill those who haven’t done any sin that warrant such punishments? God has the right to do so, unlike the king who orders a genocide, by virtues of being The Source, The Sustainer and The Sovereign over all. However, all of God’s actions are the manifestations of, at the least, Wisdom & Justice in the grand scheme of things. God alone is the one who can brought the infants and the mentally disabled to life in the first place and God alone is the one capable of resurrecting them to back to live a life of eternal and unfathomable bliss. Just like how we sometimes subject children to pain when giving medication so that they may have more pleasure later i.e. Good health. The following Hadith to me resolves the problem of evil.
Anas said “Allah’s Messenger (PBUH) said: One of the most miserable people in the world will be brought from among the people of Paradise (ie those who have been decreed to enter it). Allah will say (to the angels): Dip him once in Paradise. So they will dip him once in it. Then Allah (SWT) will ask him: Did you ever face any distress or a thing you hate. He would say: No, by Your Glory! Never did I face anything unpleasant (that is, a dip in Paradise can make one forget even the meaning of misery or distress)….” (This Hadith is Sahih and reported in Musnad Ahmad).
So great will the reward for those who suffer the worst of miseries that it will eclipse all the pain and trauma they suffered.
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Oh my!A lot of errors to correct here
Burhanuddin1 said
“Mr Brown raises an important point.
Let’s assume his understanding of “Christianity” really is the final, best, non-plus ultra superior act of God ending all sin and death saving all humanity putting everything right without any doubt hunky dory again etc pp. Crushing Satan’s head once and for all. We got it.
And then God lets false Islam loose? Superior timing, really superior.”
Response
Really? Does Islam not share the same “problem”? Was Allah sitting back in heaven taking a cup of tea while people are corrupting his message? For centuries, Allah did not even take a step to bring out righteous people who will preserve the Torah and the Injeel. I wonder how you could even raise this particular objection in the first place?
abdullah1423 said:
“Why don’t you say that your god needed to be risen because he was DEAD!
Our God doesn’t!
‘And rely upon the Ever-Living who does not die, and exalt [ Allah ] with His praise. And sufficient is He to be, with the sins of His servants, Acquainted -” QT
Where’s the comparison?”
Response
I do not just understand why people continue to raise this ad-nauseating argument! When we say that Jesus died, it means He was dispossessed of his body – He did not cease to exist. The divinity of Jesus is not located in His body or flesh as most of you guys often erroneously assume. It is Jesus Spirit that was Divine and checking the Bible again shows that Jesus committed His Spirit to the Father before He died. Jesus also said “The Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak” when he was about to be arrested. I do not see how Jesus putting off his body and picking it up the third day proves that He is not God.
Paul Williams also followed suite:
“Jonathan, we too believe that God saved Jesus from his enemies and is now with God. But the error you make is to believe Jesus was Yahweh who then was killed by men. God does not die. Your own scriptures teach this.”
Response
Can you even see what we are saying in the first place? Paul Williams and his goons are still assuming that Jesus ceased to exist for three days or that the body of Jesus is all what make him God. Will you stop reasoning like a materialist?
Intellect said:
“Jonathan S
Most people do not have graves. Does that make them God? I want to see the grave of Michael Servetus.”
Response
I am surprised that this is coming out of the mouth of someone who claimed to be Intellect? Please, let people become comfortable when they call you by that name. No one said that Jesus is God because He has a grave. Jonathan S was proving that Jesus is the Risen Lord by virtue of him getting a grave when He died and making the grave empty when He rose again demonstrating His power over death and hades. He promised earlier that He will raise His body:
Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, AND IN THREE DAYS I WILL RAISE IT UP.” The Jews therefore said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple! Will you raise it up in three days?” But he spoke of the temple of his body. When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he said this, and they believed the Scripture, and the word which Jesus had said. [John 2:19-22 WEB]
No one takes it away from me, but I lay it down by myself. I have power to lay it down, AND I HAVE POWER TO TAKE IT AGAIN. I received this commandment from my Father.” [John 10:18 WEB]
You continued:
“Risen? We will all be risen. Are we God?
rise
rīz/Submit
verb
past participle: risen
1.
move from a lower position to a higher one; come or go up.
“the tiny aircraft rose from the ground”
2.
get up from lying, sitting, or kneeling.
“she pushed back her chair and rose”
synonyms: stand up, get to one’s feet, get up, jump up, leap up; formalarise
“he rose from his chair”
Source: https://www.google.ca/search?q=what+is+risen&rlz=1C1AVFC_enCA772CA772&oq=what+is+risen&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.4705j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
All the above does not make one a God.”
Response
Blab bla bla! Another semantic fallacy! When the Bible say that Jesus is risen, it means that He died and resurrected again. You can go to any dictionary to get your meaning but what the Bible is saying is that Christ died and resurrected. Yes, you are right that we will all be risen but not by our power or by our might. It is Jesus who will raise believers up on the last day to clothe them in His glorified body while unbelievers too will be raised only to meet Jesus at the judgment throne.
“Adam does not have father and mother but Jesus had mother. Is Adam superior to Jesus?”
Response
Stop shooting in the air, Intellect. No one said that Jesus is God because He was born of a virgin. His virgin birth is meant to prove that Jesus is not a fallen man and we know that God will not dwell fully in a sinful body or flesh. We will also share in the resurrected and glorified body of Christ but that does not make us Yahweh as well.
And I guess that Paul Williams is demanding for the original autograph written by the disciples of Christ. He has to prove that unless we have the original autograph, then the copies must be forgeries. Not only that, he has to prove why the alleged prophecies of Muhammad in the Bible is authentic considering the fact that the original autograph of these prophecies does not exist at all! Telling us that the Quran is meant to correct the Bible is begging the question since we did not even believe in the Quran to be the word of God in the first place. Moreover, Muslims are not alone when they say that the Bible is corrupted.
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mr.heathcliff also said:
“okay, who saw your god rise from the dead? no one. who saw him exit the tomb? no one?no one.”
Response
Gee! Who saw Muhammad rode on his night journey? Who saw when Gabriel was dictating the Quran to Muhammad? No one! If you bury someone and that very same person was walking around three days later, what will your conclusion be if you are not an anti-supernaturalist? Do you expect the disciples saying that we will not believe unless we see the video footage or screenshot of the event?! Moreover, the Roman guards are witnesses of this glorious event, while some are eager to suppress the evidence, it is evident that some will later join the church and tell Matthew what happened. But you and your ilks will poo-poo it down and say that the copy of Matthew with us is corrupted and I even wonder why someone who inserted that event in Matthew’s copy will not do that in others copy as well … unless you want to launch an attack on Apostle Matthew just as you do on Apostle Paul.
“ If we look at the evidence, no early kristian is USING “minimal facts” of william lane craig, paul does not say that a TOMB was DISCOVERED or that peter went to the tomb to check if it was empty. paul receives a vision , the “empty tomb” was not convincing enough.”
Response
First, Paul is not narrating event but was writing theology to the church who was already familiar with the resurrection event. I do not see the reason why Paul MUST mention an empty tomb when you can even deduct from his writings that he is in agreement with it.
For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, THAT HE WAS BURIED, THAT HE WAS RAISED ON THE THIRD DAY according to the Scriptures, [1 Corinthians 15:3-4 WEB]
Anyone in flow with Paul’s writing here will know that Paul had an empty grave in mind unless he has an agenda and will not allow Paul to say such by demanding for another type of evidence. And why must Paul narrate the event at the tomb when he was just giving us a brief account of the event? Why MUST he?
You continued:
“none of the companions of jesus EVEN saw an EMPTY tomb, if we go by marks account, they ALREADY RAN off and the women tell NOTHING to anyone .”
Response
Which Bible are we even talking about here? You mean you read the Gospels and you came to the silly conclusion that none of the disciples saw the empty tomb? EVEN NONE AT ALL? Though I agree with the longer ending of Mark, the shorter ending of Mark still has the women witnessing the empty tomb and the testimony of the angels.
“in matthew, the text says that the companions go to galilee and have a vision and SOME DOUBTED .
what was the doubt? did they apostatise? did they even know it was jesus? why didn’t matthew tell us more about this doubt?”
Response
My dear friend, you are not reading the Quran. You are reading the Bible – yes the inspired scriptures. Put yourself in that historical context. Someone is dead for three days and you saw him standing before you. What will first come to your mind? Is this not hallucination? Or is this not the guy buried three days ago? Or is it really Jesus or someone else posing as Him? Well, Jesus has to make the disciples sure that He has risen and he stayed with them for forty days. It has nothing to do with apostasy at all.
“you said “he is risen”
but the EARLIEST evidence says “SOME DOUBTED”
“unrecognised for HOURS”
how could they know he is RISEN, when they did not know where he was BURIED and neither of them CHECKED an empty tomb. MARK AND MATTHEW explicitly hint that PETER did not even check the tomb”
Response
Who are you even referring to in the first place? Mary Magdalene and other women knew where Jesus was buried. John and Peter also went to the empty tomb. Whether other disciples went few days later or not, we were not told. The disciples were not dummies because there is another explanation for the empty tomb – which is – Jesus body has been located to another place. Even when Jesus appeared among them, they could not even believe it. Let me tell you, it is normal for them to do so since the resurrection is an UNBELIEVABLE event. Jesus has to be patient to allay all their doubts before sending them out, not as conquering armies, but as spirit-filled men who are ready to shake the entire world with the Gospel.
You are still assuming that each Gospel writer must WRITE every detail of what happened – a criteria which the Quran does not even meet.
Intellect also said:
“Churches are being sold and converted to Mosques in some western countries. May be Islam is their first hope. Most Christians are becoming atheist i.e. Dr. Bart Erhman.”
Response
So? Maybe that is the case with Western countries but not with African nations. I am from Nigeria – an African nation where you will hardly find an atheist. Christians are not setting up political kingdom here on earth. The Gospel must reach the ends of the earth before the Great Tribulation must arrive. TRUE Christians are always being outnumbered from the outset and this is no qualms at all. Godlessness must increase (as our Lord has warned) and people will be arrogant and will reject the true message. The gate to Heaven is narrow NOT wide. Islam looks pleasing at first but someone who understand the true meaning of LOVE will know that Islam is carnally-oriented.
If Judas who walked and talked with Christ Himself could apostatize, who is Bart Ehrman? Or Paul Williams? Or other Christian apostates?
Paul Williams said:
Seen on twitter:
The popular worship song “He is Yahweh” includes this lyric:
“The Three in One, He is Yahweh”
So the Trinity is a “He”. Is that he one of the three persons? Or is it a fourth that is a composite of the three? In that case, God would be four persons: 3 plus the composite 4th.”
Response
Before I respond to your misunderstanding, permit me to joggle your brain a bit by asking this question: Biologically, are you a living organism?
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I scrolled down and saw an interesting comment from Atlas Patridge:
“When PW quoted that he meant that we don’t believe in superiority of what all the prophet taught. And this is 100% true! Then you go ahead and quote something which is a complete red herring because Judaism and Christianity aren’t the religions that any prophet has taught. It’s quite simple really.”
Response
You mean you did not believe in the superiority of what the prophets taught when the Quran said that Jesus made some unlawful obligations into lawful ones. Or why is it that the messages of ALL OTHER prophets got corrupted except the one given to Muhammad in the first place? Why?
Paulus said:
“Oh I see. Your fabricating lies that Moses was somehow a closet Muslim. Makes sense now…”
Response
No! Atlas is not fabricating lies when he said that Moses was a Muslim. Yes, Moses was a Muslim in the sense I am a Muslim. Paulus, don’t you submit to the will of Yahweh? And does that not make you a Muslim as well? Yes, we are all Muslims NOT Muhammadans. Lol
Intellect said:
“You said sin is punished on the forgiveness thread. I wrote a lot of response explaining to you why sin cannot be punished because sin is abstract. It is living things that can be punished. Humans, demons, monkeys, elephants can be punished then get the pain but not sin itself.”
Response
Sin is abstract to the physical world but not so in the spiritual world. Sin is like cancer that spreads just like all forms of evil spread. It started with Satan and one-third of the angels in Heaven fell with him. Sin is like dirt in the spiritual world. That is the reason why God often ask the Israelites to keep themselves physically clean and often conjoin it with holiness. It is not their body or environment being clean that matters, but it gives us the impression that what dirt is to us in the physical world is what sin is in spiritual world. Sin is like a cancer among the free-willed creatures that is bent on rendering the perfect works of God into imperfect ones. Sin must be cleansed and destroyed.
“So, Jesus dying on the cross did not punish sin because sin cannot be punished. It is important for Christians to know this. When Jesus, the Trinity believing Christians God created hell, he is going to punish human beings and not sin itself because sin cannot be punished. Forgiveness is to free the human being or any living thing from punishment because of his repentance.”
Response
Yes, Jesus did not punish sin but rather cleanse it and therefore satisfying the justice of God. I do not believe that hell is a literal fire. It is place where the presence of God does not exist and where no form of goodness exist. It will be terrible like you throwing someone into fire. If forgiveness is that simple and straight-forward, why do earthly judges not set convicted criminals free if they show remorse?
“If there is punishment, then there is no forgiveness. This is very simple thing to understand.”
Response
Punishment in what sense? You mean in sense of a rebuke? My son did a bad thing and I punished him for that, how does that make me an unforgiving parent?
Intellect said:
“Forgiveness – the excusing of an offense without a penalty.”
Response
Forgiving someone without exacting penalty on the person does not means that the penalty to be paid does not exist. Rebellion against God incurs penalty since there are laws and justice must be exercised. For instance, you killed an innocent person. You have prevented the person from achieving what he ought to achieve in life. The loss of this person will affect many of his loved ones especially if he is a breadwinner. Then the murderer turned toward God and asked God to forgive him and he was forgiven just like that without penalty.
Under the Sharia Law, if an adulteress is caught, will you set her free on the basis that she had grown truly remorse? And if Allah had forgiven her, who are you to kill her?
mr.heathcliff said:
“paulus, please can you explain what happened to your idol
1. he committed all the sins of past, present and future
2. all sins of past, present and future poured on jesus. jesus became the object of ALL sinful actions like rape, murder , idolatry
3. the father saw all sins and took it out on jesus to cool off
if jesus had everything poured on him, why do you think the father rescued him from eternal damnation ?
if jesus was polluted with sin, why do you call a new born baby “born in sin” even though it did no sin ?”
Response
Now, sit down and let me walk you through the theology of the Bible. Look at the book of Leviticus. It contains instructions on how Levites are to carry out their sacrifices. Any sort of carelessness will result in death. Why?
Do you even know the reason why the angels sing “Holy Holy Holy” to Yahweh? It is because Yahweh resides in the Holiest of Holies and no sin can approach Him there. If you as a sinner approach Yahweh in the Holiest of holies, His holiness will destroy sin and you.
There are actually two types of holiness:
Undefilable/consuming holiness: This type of holiness cannot be defiled by sin for it destroys sin. Only Yahweh is HOLY in this category.
Defilable/unpurifying holiness: This type of holiness is what creatures have. It can be defiled and corrupted.
Now, on the cross, Jesus Spirit exhibit the first class holiness that can wipe out sin and suffer eternal effect of sin without being destroyed since He is greater than eternity. Do not forget the penalty for sin as well. Jesus human soul was cut off from the presence of God and that made Him to cry out that God had forsaken Him – the penalty that man suffered after the fall.
Moreover, Isaiah 53 foretold this event in great detail.
A new born baby born in sin does not mean that he/she is guilty of sin. The baby only has a fallen nature. Where there is no law, there is no sin. Since the baby has no law, all his actions are not to be considered as sin. It is the law that declares something as sin because sin draws its power from the Law.
Intellect said:
“Do you believe sin can be punished? Tell me, which prophet teaches that sin can be punished? “The wages of sin is death” does not mean sin is punished. It means the sinner will be punished unless he sincerely repents and God out of His Mercy will forgive the repentant person free of charge. No blood of Jesus Christ.
That is what all the prophets of God taught. Abraham, Moses, Isaac and Jesus himself never preached the blood of Jesus Christ is a detergent that washes away sins. Christians are still sinning like anyone else. They are not special when it comes to sin. Where is the blood of Jesus here?”
Response
That is the problem with Muhammadans who believed that God must exhaust all of His revelations to the first prophet. Abraham and Isaac never preached anything like the blood of Christ washing away our sins since it was never revealed to them though both of them foreshadowed this great event.
You cannot tell me that Moses is unaware of the fact that blood atones for sin! Gee! Read the Torah again on your own and not the part your Mullahs wanted you to read. God gave Moses the law and the means of propitiating for the sin whenever they broke the law. As times goes on, later prophets began to prophesy the atoning work of the Messiah. Isaiah is the most prominent among them since he prophesied this event in great detail in Isaiah 53. After all, the Bible is a book that described the process of gradual revelation which is typified by the gradual opening of a blind man’s eyes. Yes, the Old Testament is clear that you cannot approach God and ask for forgiveness without propitiations.
True and regenerated Christians still sin like everyone else since we all still live in this cursed flesh. But there is a difference, we strive to live in a blameless way because we LOVED God. As a Christian continues in His deep relationship with God, he starts forsaking some sins for good. This is how it goes until he dies only to wake up and be clothed in the resurrected body of Christ that is free of all those fallen human natures. We will share His body and we shall be known as His Bride and also as his Spiritual seed. Our cursed flesh cannot inherit the kingdom, my dear friend. This is the plan of God all along – to change our cursed flesh and completely regenerate our soul and sanctify us in His Spirit.
Oh ye who thirsts, come to Christ and He will give you the living water.
O come to the altar, The Father’ arms are open wide
Forgiveness is bought with the precious blood of Jesus Christ
Truly The Eternity King’s humble servant,
Messianic Muslim
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messianicmuslim
True and regenerated Christians still sin like everyone else since we all still live in this cursed flesh. But there is a difference, we strive to live in a blameless way because we LOVED God. As a Christian continues in His deep relationship with God, he starts forsaking some sins for good. This is how it goes until he dies only to wake up and be clothed in the resurrected body of Christ that is free of all those fallen human natures. We will share His body and we shall be known as His Bride and also as his Spiritual seed. Our cursed flesh cannot inherit the kingdom, my dear friend. This is the plan of God all along – to change our cursed flesh and completely regenerate our soul and sanctify us in His Spirit.
Oh ye who thirsts, come to Christ and He will give you the living water.
O come to the altar, The Father’ arms are open wide
Forgiveness is bought with the precious blood of Jesus Christ
I say;
That is why the Christian clergy and their followers continues to rape, sin and murder innocent knowing that they will not be punished. That is injustice to the victims of Christian brutalities.
Thanks.
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But it was Europe who threw Christendom away and separated Church from the state. Europeans knew how it’s to be under Church rule.
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messianicmuslim
February 23, 2018 • 3:20 am
Oh my!A lot of errors to correct here
Intellect said:
“Jonathan S
Most people do not have graves. Does that make them God? I want to see the grave of Michael Servetus.”
Response
I am surprised that this is coming out of the mouth of someone who claimed to be Intellect? Please, let people become comfortable when they call you by that name. No one said that Jesus is God because He has a grave. Jonathan S was proving that Jesus is the Risen Lord by virtue of him getting a grave when He died and making the grave empty when He rose again demonstrating His power over death and hades. He promised earlier that He will raise His body:
I say;
The Bible clearly said God is immortal i.e. God does not die, and it does not matter how one defines death. Whether death means cease to exist or not, God does not die. Jesus Christ died, so Jesus Christ is not God. To say God died and has a grave and the grave is empty is blaspheme. My intellect is telling me that Christians have made their own God and worshiping him.
That is what I use my intellect to correct here.
So many graves are empty and the previous occupants are not God. Where did get the intellect to say an occupant of an empty grave is God?
The Bible never taught if a grave is empty, the one who once occupied it(the empty grave) is God.
This is the criteria for God in the Bible.
-No one has seen God= People saw Jesus, so Jesus Christ is not God.
-The God of Abraham is 1 and no one else.=Jesus said he has a God, so he cannot be God to make 2 Gods
-God is immortal=Jesus died and is mortal, so Jesus is not God.
-God is 1=God is not produced, cannot be procreated, procreated, created, generated etc. Jesus was generated/created and so Jesus Christ is not God.
to be continued…….
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continued……….
That is what my intellect tells me.
I do not believe like Hindus and idol worshipers believe God can become his creations i.e. monkey, elephant, man(Jesus, Haile Selaissie, Sai Baba etc.) because they man and animals are creations and God is not, so don’t bring the 2 natures theory here. I have heard it over and over and is impossible. It is just like saying married bachelor, square circle. If a circle becomes square, it is no more circle.-Dr. Gary Miller of Canada.
Intellect said:
“Do you believe sin can be punished? Tell me, which prophet teaches that sin can be punished? “The wages of sin is death” does not mean sin is punished. It means the sinner will be punished unless he sincerely repents and God out of His Mercy will forgive the repentant person free of charge. No blood of Jesus Christ.
That is what all the prophets of God taught. Abraham, Moses, Isaac and Jesus himself never preached the blood of Jesus Christ is a detergent that washes away sins. Christians are still sinning like anyone else. They are not special when it comes to sin. Where is the blood of Jesus here?”
Response
That is the problem with Muhammadans who believed that God must exhaust all of His revelations to the first prophet. Abraham and Isaac never preached anything like the blood of Christ washing away our sins since it was never revealed to them though both of them foreshadowed this great event.
You cannot tell me that Moses is unaware of the fact that blood atones for sin! Gee! Read the Torah again on your own and not the part your Mullahs wanted you to read. God gave Moses the law and the means of propitiating for the sin whenever they broke the law
I say;
Show me where Moses taught God will die. Moses never taught that. In the time of Moses they worship to only one true God of Abraham, Jesus and all the prophets. They never worshiped Jesus and Jesus worshiped the God of Abraham whom he(Jesus) called the only true God who sent me(Jesus). So, Jesus blood as detergent to was away sins is the inventions of Christians.
Thanks.
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” No one! If you bury someone and that very same person was walking around three days later, what will your conclusion be if you are not an anti-supernaturalist?”
that the person did not die.
lets put it this way .
I didn’t even see the person BURIED , i only saw the person APPEAR on a mountain 70 MILES AWAY FROM alleged burial site, what would i have said ? that he didn’t die and he escaped death.
Let me put it this way to you.
50 days later, 12 kristians come to you and tell you, “hey andrew has RISEN! ”
what proof will you ask for? WHERE is the body, right?
so why didn’t one fristian produce the WOUNDED , battered and abused body of your “risen jeezoz” ?
you are in jerusalem 50 days after jesus went to heaven like superman, you say
“he promised the sign of jonah, but where is he”
the disciples say
“he is in heaven”
will you believe lol ?
even paul didn’t, thats why he needed a vision for himself LOL
that’s why craigs “minimal facts ” are DESTROYED by paul himself.
“Do you expect the disciples saying that we will not believe unless we see the video footage or screenshot of the event?!
Moreover, the Roman guards are witnesses of this glorious event, while some are eager to suppress the evidence, ”
, no roman guard found in marks account. the women who come to the tomb are worried about moving the stone , they are not worried about getting passed any guards. the guards would have been there biggest worry.
it isn’t in john or luke.
WHY would mark write the way he did and NOT EVEN LEAVE A clue in his account that the tomb was guarded ?
the roman guards in matthew are ready to spread lies about stolen body, it is possible they could have EASILY lied about angel appearing to them and flooring them.
your “roman guards ” according to your own anonymous writers were LIARS
“it is evident that some will later join the church and tell Matthew what happened.”
hahahaah, it is evident that people joined the church in marks time too, but completely forgot about that christmas tree like angel appearing out of no where. it is missing in luke as well.
just imagine evidence like the gospels in produced today for an alleged resurrection which took place at your local grave yard .
”
But you and your ilks will poo-poo it down and say that the copy of Matthew with us is corrupted and I even wonder why someone who inserted that event in Matthew’s copy will not do that in others copy as well … unless you want to launch an attack on Apostle Matthew just as you do on Apostle Paul.”
christians had to invent their lies because the evidence for jesus’ resurrection was clearly not good enough. matthew clearly changes marks story and adds his own stuff to counter problems he is hearing from his opponents. the evidence was so bad, that matthew even had to bring in guards who did not check the body was in tomb before they guarded it .
“ If we look at the evidence, no early kristian is USING “minimal facts” of william lane craig, paul does not say that a TOMB was DISCOVERED or that peter went to the tomb to check if it was empty. paul receives a vision , the “empty tomb” was not convincing enough.”
Response
“First, Paul is not narrating event but was writing theology”
so thanks for admitting that your EARLIEST witness don’t narrate eyewitness testimony , but THEOLOGY.
” to the church who was already familiar with the resurrection event.”
lol, and how do you know that ? the church was familiar with different VERSIONS of this “event ”
” I do not see the reason why Paul MUST mention an empty tomb when you can even deduct from his writings that he is in agreement with it.”
“For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, THAT HE WAS BURIED, THAT HE WAS RAISED ON THE THIRD DAY according to the Scriptures, [1 Corinthians 15:3-4 WEB]”
buried ? where? by whom? was it found ? by whom ?
did it say in this line that peter DISCOVERED an empty tomb ?
everything paul has written REQUIRES nothing KNOWN , but something that it obvious.
what happens to dead bodies? they get buried, right?
raised on the third day? how long after death? 1 week after death? 1 month ?
“Anyone in flow with Paul’s writing here will know that Paul had an empty grave in mind”
paul had an “empty grave in mind ” means he knew about a DISCOVERED tomb or that jesus’ burial location was known ? lol
if paul KNEW something SPECIAL TOOK place at the GRAVE , why didn’t he make BRIEF mention of it? wouldn’t you ?
” unless he has an agenda and will not allow Paul to say such by demanding for another type of evidence. And why must Paul narrate the event at the tomb when he was just giving us a brief account of the event? Why MUST he?”
well , there is possibility that paul knew that NOTHING amazing or special or miraculous had TAKEN place at the BURIAL site so thats why he did not narrate anything about it.
does his account look brief to you ?
he is talking about people and even names them . he is talking about order of appearances. he is talking about what scripture says .
but anyway, your earliest witness cannot be used as proof that tomb was DISCOVERED .
You continued:
“none of the companions of jesus EVEN saw an EMPTY tomb, if we go by marks account, they ALREADY RAN off and the women tell NOTHING to anyone .”
Response
Which Bible are we even talking about here? You mean you read the Gospels and you came to the silly conclusion that none of the disciples saw the empty tomb? EVEN NONE AT ALL? Though I agree with the longer ending of Mark, the shorter ending of Mark still has the women witnessing the empty tomb and the testimony of the angels.
REPLY :
The EARLIEST story says that the women heard an unknown anonymous man about a risen body . the earliest story says that the women DID NOT TELL peter anything . the earliest story says that peter did not even check to see if the tomb was empty .
the earliest story says that nothing was said to anyone .
i didn’t come to this silly conclusion , i looked at mark and asked myself that if mary REALLY went to SPEAK to peter, why did MArk lie and say that she said “NOTHING to ANYONE ”
his audience would not be DUMB when he wrote those words to them, they were capable of understanding words.
so it is VERY VERY likely mark REALLY meant that mary DID NOT TELL PETER ANYTHING!
“in matthew, the text says that the companions go to galilee and have a vision and SOME DOUBTED .
what was the doubt? did they apostatise? did they even know it was jesus? why didn’t matthew tell us more about this doubt?”
“Response
My dear friend, you are not reading the Quran. You are reading the Bible – yes the inspired scriptures. Put yourself in that historical context. Someone is dead for three days and you saw him standing before you. ”
if i hung around with that person for more than 1 year , surely i would be able to recognise him .UNLESS he is a shape shifter lol
the mary’s immediately recognise your flesh god , they even grab his legs. so it makes no sense about the doubts on the mountain.
if you harmonise the gospels, then it makes no sense because they NOT only recognise him on day of resurrection , but then FAR way in Galilee they DOUBT it was him .
but i am not harmonizing the gospels, when mark was written Matthew didn’t even exist. we know this BECAUSE none of matthew ENDING can be derived from markan ENDING , matthew CLEARLY develops the story.
“What will first come to your mind? Is this not hallucination? Or is this not the guy buried three days ago? ”
or did he even die? was he even dead on the cross?
“Or is it really Jesus or someone else posing as Him?”
”
Well, Jesus has to make the disciples sure that He has risen and he stayed with them for forty days. It has nothing to do with apostasy at all.”
when was matthew written ? you assuming that matthew was a video camera RECORDING the moment your got made his appearances, matthew is no VIDEO camera , matthew writing DECADES later tells his READERS that some DOUBTED .
matthew DOES NOT TELL us how jesus MADE sure he was “risen”
he,matthew , just LEFT it at “SOME DOUBTED” meaning he did not BOTHER addressing the DOUBT
now why you telling about this “doubt” when your readers are believers? that bit could have BEEN LEFT out , but it was included for a reason .
“you said “he is risen”
but the EARLIEST evidence says “SOME DOUBTED”
“unrecognised for HOURS”
how could they know he is RISEN, when they did not know where he was BURIED and neither of them CHECKED an empty tomb. MARK AND MATTHEW explicitly hint that PETER did not even check the tomb”
“Response
Who are you even referring to in the first place? Mary Magdalene and other women knew where Jesus was buried.”
where was jesus buried ? do you know where jesus was buried? did mark know where jesus was buried? mark says that the Mary’s DID not tell him where jesus was buried. mark does not say that he KNEW where jesus was buried.
“John and Peter also went to the empty tomb.”
yes, the earliest STORIES created a problem, they did not have ANYONE ID-ING the LOCATIONS by males. now i want to FIRE THIS on you, why did JOHN AND LUKE NEED TO narrate peters trip to the tomb ? why ? why didn’t they LEAVE there accounts LIKE matthew and mark ? why would they WANT to add in the DETAILS that not only were women witnesses but MALE disciples too ? what was the need?
“Whether other disciples went few days later or not, we were not told.”
the stories starts ADDING in DETAILS the later it is being written .
you CAN’T USE your EARLIEST stories and prove that jesus DIED. YOU need LATER DETAILS to read BACK into earliest stories.
“The disciples were not dummies because there is another explanation for the empty tomb – which is – Jesus body has been located to another place.”
according to john mary reports that the BODY was MOVED BY unknowns , if we harmonize the account , we have mary RETURNING back to peter to tell him that
“hey, no no no, the body ISN’T moved , an angel appeared to be -he didn’t appear to you peter- and told me body has risen”
imagine if something like this happened today, wouldn’t you say mary need to seek medical help ?
”
Even when Jesus appeared among them, they could not even believe it.
Let me tell you, it is normal for them to do so since the resurrection is an UNBELIEVABLE event. ”
thats bs, according to the gospels people BELIEVED that resurrected figures appeared in DIFFERENT faces, so in that time it was not AN UNBELIEVABLE event. people were thinking it was happening all the time.
“Jesus has to be patient to allay all their doubts before sending them out, ”
your “risen” jesus didn’t provide any proof that he was dead . the gospels realised this, so they helped him out by making up proof on his behalf.
“You are still assuming that each Gospel writer must WRITE every detail of what happened – a criteria which the Quran does not even meet.”
well YES, this is the RESURRECTED god on earth who WALKED , farted and SHAT .
THIS is supposed to be AN UNBELIEVABLE EVENT !
of course the gospel writers, ESPECIALLY the earliest ones , need to provide as much as DETAIL as possible !
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lets see
“Do you even know the reason why the angels sing “Holy Holy Holy” to Yahweh? It is because Yahweh resides in the Holiest of Holies and no sin can approach Him there. If you as a sinner approach Yahweh in the Holiest of holies, His holiness will destroy sin and you.”
moses was a sinner and he did sins and he got into gods presence without jesus ,says the bible.
even temple priests were doing RITUALS , deeds and processes using their HANDS and they were sinners who were in gods PRESENCE without needing jesus .
”
There are actually two types of holiness:
Undefilable/consuming holiness: This type of holiness cannot be defiled by sin for it destroys sin. Only Yahweh is HOLY in this category.
Defilable/unpurifying holiness: This type of holiness is what creatures have. It can be defiled and corrupted.
Now, on the cross, Jesus Spirit exhibit the first class holiness that can wipe out sin and suffer eternal effect of sin without being destroyed since He is greater than eternity.”
so the flesh of jesus SHOULD be burning in hell since it was filled with unpurifiable sins, jesus’ flesh should be burning in hell .
jesus FLESH is completely polluted with unpurifiable crimes and actions .
the ACTIONS themselves do NOT repent, jesus should be in hell for eternity .
” Do not forget the penalty for sin as well. Jesus human soul was cut off from the presence of God and that made Him to cry out that God had forsaken Him – the penalty that man suffered after the fall.”
jesus was “cut off” only to rejoin with his god. he suffered no penalty , he suffer temporary disconnection for actions which require PERMANENT punishment in the depths of hell .
“Moreover, Isaiah 53 foretold this event in great detail.”
in your dream?
”
A new born baby born in sin does not mean that he/she is guilty of sin.”
so if it is not guilty then it is sinless.
jesus BECAME guilty which would mean he should be seen as SINNER when COMPARED to an INFANT .
an infant is not GUILTY of sins.
“The baby only has a fallen nature. “
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“Jesus Spirit exhibit the first class holiness that can wipe out sin and suffer eternal effect of sin without being destroyed since He is greater than eternity”
so yhwh did not SUFFEr in the temple as invisible yhwh in the temple. he USED his POWER to destroy sin, not BECOME meat and then get DESTROYED by sin.
you cannot compare yhwh to your pagan man god, they work completely different.
jesus gets POURED on , yhwh destroys by staying on top of sins.
two different gods
NO suffering takes over yhwh , since he is INVISIBLE AND HAS FULL power over sins . jesus gets POURED on and TAKEN over by sin to such an EXTENT that one part of god has to turn away. these are two different dieties.
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“You cannot tell me that Moses is unaware of the fact that blood atones for sin! Gee! Read the Torah again on your own and not the part your Mullahs wanted you to read. God gave Moses the law and the means of propitiating for the sin whenever they broke the law”
god gave moses MORE than animal rituals and he sure would not have abrogated it through a PAGAN man god sacrifice.
when he chat with them in sinai he did not tell the sinners about sin nature, he told them that they could OBEY his commands and they don’t need to be
1. innocent
2. angels
3. god .
LOL
READ the damn book. CUTTING NECKS of ANIMALS so blood pours out to APPEASE yhwh IS NOT IMPORTANT STUFF .
it is simply a present which makes yhwh happy. you can also offer him gold, flower , repentance, prayer, rituals, VEGETABLES,
blood sacrifice is not IMPORTANT AT ALL SINCE THERE IS NO RULE IN TORAH WHICH SAYS “WITHOUT SHEDDING OF BLOOD NO FORGIVENESS OF SINS”
thats your false pagan view which you are reading into the book.
torah says that DOING GOOD is greater than cutting neck of an animal which then would logically imply human sacrifice of jesus is not in the picture.
even the earliest christians did not see jesus as magical cooling system .
you are bloody bloody minded blood obsessed RITUAL obsessed pagan human man eating sacrificial loving pagan heathen .
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o Intellect said:
“I say;
That is why the Christian clergy and their followers continues to rape, sin and murder innocent knowing that they will not be punished. That is injustice to the victims of Christian brutalities.”
Response
Then I do not see the difference between them and Muhammad! If Muhammad did it, it is okay but if others did it, it makes them brutal savages. Especially when we considered the fact that Muhammad was taken to a place where all his past, present and future sins were washed. Intellect, when these priests commit heinous actions like this, something in the back of your mind is telling you that these guys are vile and wicked. But where is that voice when you read the biography of Muhammad? You silence the voice and even appeal to the actions of kufir to vindicate Muhammad OR do what other Muslims do, throw out the hadith as inauthentic and find different meanings for the Arabic construction and search the Bible day and night so as to find similar events in it even if means distorting the passage.
Second, all these acts cannot be traced to the early church. Even the much-hated Apostle Paul does not exhibit these heinous crimes despite the fact that others have always misunderstood his writings. We look to Jesus as the embodiment of righteousness and not any man NOT even the human pope. Christians are not identified by the crosses in their homes or lip declarations but by the fruits they produce. You can always keep looking for bad Christians but that does not means that there are NOT good Christians – I guess you turned a blind eye to them in order to console yourself. And looking at what I wrote again, it is evident that I am referring to TRUE Christians.
Intellect said:
“The Bible clearly said God is immortal i.e. God does not die, and it does not matter how one defines death. Whether death means cease to exist or not, God does not die. Jesus Christ died, so Jesus Christ is not God. To say God died and has a grave and the grave is empty is blaspheme. My intellect is telling me that Christians have made their own God and worshiping him.”
Response
God is immortal and is a SPIRIT. The Divine aspect of Jesus occupied his Spiritual component not HIS human component. So when we said that Jesus died, it means that God as a SPIRIT put off the body He acquired at the incarnation and put it on again after three days. It has nothing to do with God dying. Jesus Christ died but his soul and spirit are very much alive! Intellect, let me make it easier for you by asking you these questions. If the Bible said that God does not die, what does it means? If the Bible said that Jesus died, what does it means? Please, apply your intellect here.
“So many graves are empty and the previous occupants are not God. Where did get the intellect to say an occupant of an empty grave is God?
The Bible never taught if a grave is empty, the one who once occupied it(the empty grave) is God.”
Response
You can keep chasing after ghost arguments all you like. No one said that Jesus is God because He died and resurrected. That is not the premise and you are missing the argument. The resurrection is a vindication of Jesus claims to deity – in other words, The Father is in agreement with Jesus claims to deity and that is what matters.
You continued:
“This is the criteria for God in the Bible.
-No one has seen God= People saw Jesus, so Jesus Christ is not God.
-The God of Abraham is 1 and no one else.=Jesus said he has a God, so he cannot be God to make 2 Gods
-God is immortal=Jesus died and is mortal, so Jesus is not God.
-God is 1=God is not produced, cannot be procreated, procreated, created, generated etc. Jesus was generated/created and so Jesus Christ is not God.”
Response
Then take a look at this:
“They SAW THE GOD OF ISRAEL. Under his feet was like a paved work of sapphire stone, like the skies for clearness. He didn’t lay his hand on the nobles of the children of Israel. They SAW GOD, and ate and drank.” Exodus 24:10-11
Who wrote that? It is Moses not me or any other Christian! The God that cannot be seen is The Father NOT the Son. The function of the Son/Word is to reveal The Father to creation. We have numerous theophanies of the Mysterious Angel of the LORD in the Old Testament who is also described as Yahweh Himself. If you want to pursue this further, then take the lead.
And concerning the issue of God being immortal, I completely agree with you. Unfortunately, for you to use this argument against us, you only have to prove that we believed that the divine nature of Christ is located within his human body. I can tell you that no informed Trinitarian believed that Jesus body is divine. Intellect, I repeat, strive to make us comfortable when we call you by that beautiful and wonderful name.
You continued:
“That is what my intellect tells me.
I do not believe like Hindus and idol worshipers believe God can become his creations i.e. monkey, elephant, man(Jesus, Haile Selaissie, Sai Baba etc.) because they man and animals are creations and God is not, so don’t bring the 2 natures theory here. I have heard it over and over and is impossible. It is just like saying married bachelor, square circle. If a circle becomes square, it is no more circle.-Dr. Gary Miller of Canada.”
Response
I am afraid to say that your intellect is completely wrong due to data mis-feed. Monkeys and other animals ARE NOT CREATED in the IMAGE of GOD. Man is the only creature that was created in the image of God! Man is tripartite in nature – having body, soul and spirit. Human is not just a mere animal, he is also God’s spiritual agent. So God can add humanity to Himself without sacrificing His Divine nature. He only has to occupy the spiritual component and add soul and body to Himself.
“Show me where Moses taught God will die. Moses never taught that. In the time of Moses they worship to only one true God of Abraham, Jesus and all the prophets. They never worshiped Jesus and Jesus worshiped the God of Abraham whom he(Jesus) called the only true God who sent me(Jesus). So, Jesus blood as detergent to was away sins is the inventions of Christians.”
Response
This is the problem with you Muhammadans. You are assuming that God must exhaust all of His future revelations to Moses. I do not know where you bring such criteria from. Is it because the Quran is written by one man and you want to impose the worldview on the Bible despite the fact that both are completely two worlds apart? The Bible is a gradual revelation of God with each prophet contributing his own revelation until they sum up.
Second, you should as well give us the reason why Moses teaches that blood atones for sins.
Third, Isaiah described that the Arm of the Lord will come and propitiate for our sins (Isaiah 53), what do you say about that?
Fourth, are you really sure that the OT prophets did not worship the pre-incarnate Christ? What about the Angel of the LORD (Malak Yahweh)? Or do you want me to educate you further on this mysterious figure in the OT?
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mr.heathcliff said:
“that the person did not die.
lets put it this way .
I didn’t even see the person BURIED , i only saw the person APPEAR on a mountain 70 MILES AWAY FROM alleged burial site, what would i have said ? that he didn’t die and he escaped death.”
Response
Who did not see Christ buried? Who? How many witnesses do you want the Bible to provide for the burial of Christ? How many? O rebellious Muhammadan? Mary Magdalene, Joseph of Arimathea, Roman centurion, Mary the mother of James and Joses, mother of the sons of Zebedee and other women saw Jesus died. How many witnesses do you want? Are you saying that these God-fearing Jews taught by Christ lied against Him? And on what basis should the disciples of Christ label the women and Joseph as liars?
And when Jesus appeared to them, why did he not say “hi folks, do not mind those stupid and dumb women and Joseph, I did not die, they lied against me. Oh! The poor Pilate fell for the tricks!”? Only someone with an agenda like you will not allow the natural flow of events!
You continued:
“Let me put it this way to you.
50 days later, 12 kristians come to you and tell you, “hey andrew has RISEN! ”
what proof will you ask for? WHERE is the body, right?
so why didn’t one fristian produce the WOUNDED , battered and abused body of your “risen jeezoz” ?”
Response
My! Andrew has risen and you expect me to produce the DEAD body of RISEN Andrew? Even kids do not think in such a ludicrous manner. Where did you expect the disciples to get the dead body of Jesus who had already risen? Or did I misunderstand your argument here?
Okay, permit me to walk you through your delusions, launch yourself into the past and let us know you as the 13th disciple of Christ. You were told by some women on Sunday morning that Jesus has risen from the dead. Later, you see John and Peter carrying the dead and battered body of Christ inside and said “Andrew, Matthew, Nathaniel, James and others present, look this is the body of our master, He has risen from the dead”. I guess you will be the first person to jump in the air and praise God that God had vindicated Jesus by raising him from the dead and providing us with the dead and battered body of Christ so that we will not be mistaken concerning the person who died. C’mon, stop sounding ludicrous and you should see a specialist – a psychologist this time around.
“you are in jerusalem 50 days after jesus went to heaven like superman, you say
“he promised the sign of jonah, but where is he”
the disciples say
“he is in heaven”
will you believe lol ?”
Response
So I should not believe in the disciples of Christ whom the Quran described as the helpers of Allah? I should rather believe in a man who appeared on the scene 600 years later. I was in Jerusalem and I saw the disciples of the Risen Lord performing miracles and signs in the Name of their Master, you expect me to disbelieve them. Wait a minute! Or did Mr. heathcliff not claim to be a Muslim? If you are not a Muslim, I apologize and maybe I will formulate my response such that I will be responding to an atheist.
“even paul didn’t, thats why he needed a vision for himself LOL
that’s why craigs “minimal facts ” are DESTROYED by paul himself.”
Response
So Paul who was the enemy of the Church and was going about devouring Christians just decided to fabricate a lie and even perform miracles to back up such a lie? Who will believe such nonsense except a desperate person who is interested in attacking the Christian faith? You should explain what to Paul? How did a former bounty hunter of Christians become the greatest missionary of gentiles? And you can list the minimal facts that Paul destroy and let us see if your argument holds water. Otherwise you sound like an angry granny!
“no roman guard found in marks account. the women who come to the tomb are worried about moving the stone , they are not worried about getting passed any guards. the guards would have been there biggest worry.
it isn’t in john or luke.
WHY would mark write the way he did and NOT EVEN LEAVE A clue in his account that the tomb was guarded?”
Response
Gosh! So if one of the Gospel writers recorded an event that others do not record, you would accuse one of fabricating the events. But if they recorded the same thing, you will accuse them of copying each other or copying from an earlier source that got lost (Q document).What will God do? Mr. heathcliff, is it not one of your rebellious natures here that is driving you to raise these arguments?
Or wait a minute? Why do you think Mark must record this event when he is aware that the early church is very much aware of this? Mark was writing a brief account of Jesus life, why must he be detailed in every aspect? Why? But when you are looking for the prophecies of Muhammad, those criteria will no longer be necessary. Will it? Your argument from silence is invalid!
“the roman guards in matthew are ready to spread lies about stolen body, it is possible they could have EASILY lied about angel appearing to them and flooring them.
your “roman guards ” according to your own anonymous writers were LIARS”
Response
So I should believe that the guards who were desperate to try a cover-story to suppress the fact that Jesus rose from the dead ended up fabricating a story to prove that Jesus is risen? How on earth will anyone in right senses come to such conclusions?
Second, read the Gospel of Matthew again and you will see that SOME (not all) guards were the ones who tried to come up with a story to suppress the glorious event. The others who witnessed such a great miracle were converted easily.
“hahahaah, it is evident that people joined the church in marks time too, but completely forgot about that christmas tree like angel appearing out of no where. it is missing in luke as well.”
Response
But if they record the same thing, you will accuse them of copying each other right or copying from an earlier unreliable source. Isn’t so? We have seen what you and your ilks can do with such historical facts and bend them to your agendas. Unless the four Gospel writers record an event, it is authentic. Only two Gospel writers made mention of the virgin birth (only two books out of the 27 books!), so we should conclude by your reasoning that the virgin birth is a fabricated lie hence Muhammad is a false prophet. Wait a minute! If Muhammad did not affirm the virgin birth of Christ, guess what you and your other Muhammadans will do? Scream that the virgin birth is copycat fable from earlier legends! Mr. heathcliff, stop hiding behind pseudo-scholarship to attack the Christian faith because your inconsistencies are glaring. Be honest to come out and say that all your assertions are based on faith in the Quran and not on the basis of true historical investigation.
“christians had to invent their lies because the evidence for jesus’ resurrection was clearly not good enough. matthew clearly changes marks story and adds his own stuff to counter problems he is hearing from his opponents. the evidence was so bad, that matthew even had to bring in guards who did not check the body was in tomb before they guarded it .”
Response
By your reasoning, we can even conclude that Matthew has to change Mark story and added the virgin birth in order to make Jesus more miraculous and mark Him out as a special person. Would this not make Muhammad out as a false prophet who was rehashing worn-out legends as the unbelievers have been claiming all along? Mr. heathcliff, your bias is making you raise silly objections and promoting wild and absurd theories! Matthew did not change anything. He was writing to the Jews and was elaborating on the details that Mark omitted (assuming that Mark was written first). That is all, you do not have sufficient data to prove that Matthew fabricated the event.
“ If we look at the evidence, no early kristian is USING “minimal facts” of william lane craig, paul does not say that a TOMB was DISCOVERED or that peter went to the tomb to check if it was empty. paul receives a vision , the “empty tomb” was not convincing enough.”
Response
Why would the early Christians be using minimal facts when they can see and consult the eyewitnesses themselves? If I said “John fell from the top of the building and got his bones broken”, do you need anyone to tell you that John actually fell on the ground NOT on the sea or on a soft cushion? Robots might need such data but what about a man who has reasoning and intelligence? As I already said earlier, Paul was not narrating an event but was giving the CREED he received from the Apostles.
“so thanks for admitting that your EARLIEST witness don’t narrate eyewitness testimony , but THEOLOGY.”
Response
Mr. heathcliff, if it was Islam that make you to reason badly as this, then leave it and go for another religion or become an atheist! You mean the creed Paul was reciting was not derived from eyewitness when Paul himself said:
“For I delivered to you first of all THAT WHICH I ALSO RECEIVED: that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the scriptures, [1 Corinthians 15:3-4 WEB]”
“lol, and how do you know that ? the church was familiar with different VERSIONS of this “event ”
Response
Lol! I can successfully harmonize the resurrection accounts without any problem. If you want me to educate you further, I am ready!
You continued:
buried ? “where?
Response
Where does the dead get buried?
by whom? was it found ? by whom ?”
Response
He was buried by Joseph of Arimathea, Mary Magdalene and others. The tomb was not found since it did not get lost in the first place. The empty tomb was discovered by at least Mary Magdalene and other women, Peter and John. And I am very sure that the Jews who killed Jesus would have gone to visit the tomb and check whether the resurrection story was true. When they found it empty and could not produce the body of Jesus, some of them came up with a story that the body of Yeshua was stolen.
“did it say in this line that peter DISCOVERED an empty tomb ?
everything paul has written REQUIRES nothing KNOWN , but something that it obvious.
what happens to dead bodies? they get buried, right?
raised on the third day? how long after death? 1 week after death? 1 month ?”
Response
If I get you right, Mr. heathcliff, you are arguing from anti-supernaturalism. We are less concerned with what happened with other dead bodies. We are speaking of the body of Jesus here.
“paul had an “empty grave in mind ” means he knew about a DISCOVERED tomb or that jesus’ burial location was known ? lol”
Response
I do not understand the reason for demanding the location of the empty tomb when the empty tomb itself does not prove that Jesus had resurrected. That the tomb was empty could mean that the local authorities have moved the body or the body has been stolen. Appearance of Jesus is what matters most. This is what is relevant: Jesus was arrested, crucified, killed and buried. On the third day, He rose again in victory. Looking for the names of the Romans who killed Jesus, or looking for the carpenter who built the cross or the names of the robbers who were crucified beside Him is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT.
“if paul KNEW something SPECIAL TOOK place at the GRAVE , why didn’t he make BRIEF mention of it? wouldn’t you ?”
Response
Paul said that Jesus was buried and rose on the third day, so what exactly is your problem? Especially when Paul was writing to those who are already familiar with these details,
“well , there is possibility that paul knew that NOTHING amazing or special or miraculous had TAKEN place at the BURIAL site so thats why he did not narrate anything about it.”
Response
Okay, what does Paul mean when he said that Jesus was buried and rose up on the third day? What is Apostle Paul trying to insinuate, rebellious Muhammadan?
“does his account look brief to you ?”
Response
Yes, it does not only look brief to me, it is brief to every other sensible persons without hidden agendas.
“he is talking about people and even names them . he is talking about order of appearances. he is talking about what scripture says.”
Response
Let us look at the passage again so that we can walk you through your delusions:
“Now I declare to you, brothers, the Good News which I preached to you, which also you received, in which you also stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold firmly the word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 3For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6Then he appeared to over five hundred brothers at once, most of whom remain until now, but some have also fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all, as to the child born at the wrong time, he appeared to me also. 9For I am the least of the apostles, who is not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the assembly of God.”[1 Corinthians 15:1-9 WEB]
Why did Paul not list the name of all the apostles? Why not give a comprehensive list of all the 500 brothers? Not only that, he should as well state the time that Christ died. In fact, you can continue to imagine endless questions that this creed does not bother to address.
You said:
“but anyway, your EARLIEST witness cannot be used as proof that tomb was DISCOVERED .”
And later went on to contradict yourself:
“The EARLIEST story says that the women heard an unknown anonymous man about a risen body . the earliest story says that the women DID NOT TELL peter anything . the earliest story says that peter did not even check to see if the tomb was empty .”
Response
Mr. heathcliff, which one is the earliest among the two (Mark or 1 Corinthians) according to your own opinion?
Second, the shorter ending of Mark does not say that the women did not tell the disciples anything. It only said that the women did not tell anyone which probably means that the women did not tell anyone they meet on their way. Especially when we consider the fact that the angels asked the women to tell the disciples and Peter.
Third, I completely agree with the longer ending of Mark and I can defend the reading.
“the earliest story says that nothing was said to anyone .
i didn’t come to this silly conclusion , i looked at mark and asked myself that if mary REALLY went to SPEAK to peter, why did MArk lie and say that she said “NOTHING to ANYONE ””
Response
With the abrupt and strange ending of the Gospel of Mark, you do not have sufficient data to prove that Evangelist Mark lied (If I go for the shorter ending). It is apparent from reading the passage that the women did not tell anyone they met on their way. They later told the disciples according to what the angels told them.
Moreover, I go with the longer ending!
You continued:
“his audience would not be DUMB when he wrote those words to them, they were capable of understanding words.
so it is VERY VERY likely mark REALLY meant that mary DID NOT TELL PETER ANYTHING!”
Response
First, can you tell us what the Church believed before Mark wrote down his Gospel? Secondly, you cannot speculate too much because you do not have sufficient data to prove that Mary and others did not tell anyone about the tomb especially in the face of evidences that proved otherwise.
“if i hung around with that person for more than 1 year , surely i would be able to recognise him .UNLESS he is a shape shifter lol”
Response
And so what should God do? If He presents some evidence yet you and your ilks will do everything to poo-poo down the evidence. O Rebellious Muhammadan, repent before it is too late. If Jesus hung around for a year, you will say that you will not believe unless He hung around for ten years.
“the mary’s immediately recognise your flesh god , they even grab his legs. so it makes no sense about the doubts on the mountain.
if you harmonise the gospels, then it makes no sense because they NOT only recognise him on day of resurrection , but then FAR way in Galilee they DOUBT it was him.”
Response
Yes, that is the reason why you should read the harmonization of the resurrection accounts before you start making blunders. Who doubted? And when did they doubt? Who are the audiences? Only a naïve and poor reader like you will get confused. Luke 24:41 said that they did not believe because OF JOY. That Jesus is standing before them sounds too INCREDIBLE for them to believe and they have to double-check their senses. This is normal and in fact, to be expected. And Jesus has to spend many days not only to allay their doubt but also to prepare them for the advent of the Third Person of the Godhead.
“but i am not harmonizing the gospels, when mark was written Matthew didn’t even exist. we know this BECAUSE none of matthew ENDING can be derived from markan ENDING , matthew CLEARLY develops the story.”
Response
The burden of proof is on you to prove that Matthew developed the story especially when we consider the fact that Matthew is one of the Twelve. Please prove and stop barging me with ridiculous and outlandish speculations. Matthew does not has to derive anything from Mark because He is also an eyewitness testimony. Mark was writing from the perspective of Peter while Matthew was giving his own account. Consult the harmonization accounts and you will understand better. If you are too lazy to do so, let me give you a link and read during your leisure time: http://www.answering-islam.org/Andy/Resurrection/harmony.html
“or did he even die? was he even dead on the cross?
“Or is it really Jesus or someone else posing as Him?”
Response
You just keep dancing about and the position you are trying to hold is not even consistent or clear! It is not your fault, your commitment to a 1400 year old fable is making you sound ridiculous!
Read the Gospels again and ALL of them recorded the death of Jesus. ALL! Do not forget that you were the one saying that if all the Gospel writers do not record an event, then it should be regarded as speculation. So what will you do this time around since all of them recorded the crucifixion and death of Jesus Christ? Let me guess: scream that there are contradictions and start using the devil’s long and outdated tricks by crying inconsistencies. Well, you are welcome to bring them so that I may address them. Moreover, do not forget to bring your common sense along since you will not be only attacking the Bible, you will be defending the Quran as well.
“when was matthew written ? you assuming that matthew was a video camera RECORDING the moment your got made his appearances, matthew is no VIDEO camera , matthew writing DECADES later tells his READERS that some DOUBTED .”
Response
How old are you Mr. heathcliff? If you turn 70 and your children came to you to come and give the summary of the account of your life from childhood, then you will reply and said “Children, to be candid, it’s been decades and I cannot mislead you.”.
Second, how many decades? Three? Two? And yet Matthew has completely forgotten what happened? But there is no problem with John writing even more later than Matthew recording the prediction of the Paraclete. Not only that, the Gospel of Mark was also written decades after Jesus death yet you feel justified in using this Gospel. Can you even hear the nonsense you are spewing? Your bias is very obvious.
Not only that, you also keep neglecting the fact that the Church survived for many years before the books of the NT was complete. They have the Apostles and other Holy-spirit filled disciples to guide them.
“matthew DOES NOT TELL us how jesus MADE sure he was “risen”
he,matthew , just LEFT it at “SOME DOUBTED” meaning he did not BOTHER addressing the DOUBT
now why you telling about this “doubt” when your readers are believers? that bit could have BEEN LEFT out , but it was included for a reason .”
Response
You can keep on making wild speculations about something irrelevant. Did Matthew say that these people continue to doubt today? Did Matthew say that their doubt lasted forever? Did Matthew even give the specific time frame when their doubts lasted? NO!!! And Luke who got his fact from many eyewitnesses said that some doubted because of JOY and since we are not stupid, we understand what Matthew was saying and we do not have to read unnecessary and wild speculations and theories into the text. Not only that, the crowd was mixed with confusion. Matthew did not mention what happened during the remaining forty days so you do not have any sufficient data to read nonsense.
“you said “he is risen”
but the EARLIEST evidence says “SOME DOUBTED”
“unrecognised for HOURS”
Response
Err… I am lost, Mr. heathcliff. Liars have short memories. Were you not arguing that 1 Corinthians was the EARLIEST evidence? Then you went on to pose Mark as the EARLIEST evidence? Now, Matthew becomes the EARLIEST evidence? Why? All in the name of attacking the Gospel, you have to keep contradicting yourself? Continue shooting yourself in the foot – after all, the position you took is not even defendable at all.
“how could they know he is RISEN, when they did not know where he was BURIED and neither of them CHECKED an empty tomb. MARK AND MATTHEW explicitly hint that PETER did not even check the tomb”
Response
Note of correction: Mark and Matthew DID NOT say whether Peter checked the tomb or not. You cannot argue from silence, my dear one. Other accounts like John recorded that both Peter and John visited the tomb. Arguing silence is ridiculous since none of the accounts stated that their accounts are detailed.
“where was jesus buried ? do you know where jesus was buried? did mark know where jesus was buried? mark says that the Mary’s DID not tell him where jesus was buried. mark does not say that he KNEW where jesus was buried.”
Response
I repeat: It is fallacious to argue from silence. Silence on an event or detail does not means absence of the event or detail.
“yes, the earliest STORIES created a problem, they did not have ANYONE ID-ING the LOCATIONS by males. now i want to FIRE THIS on you, why did JOHN AND LUKE NEED TO narrate peters trip to the tomb ? why ? why didn’t they LEAVE there accounts LIKE matthew and mark ? why would they WANT to add in the DETAILS that not only were women witnesses but MALE disciples too ? what was the need?”
Response
You mean both Luke and John should have copied Mark and not provide their own corroborating testimony? What type of historical investigation is that? Your argument is completely laughable. Or you did not know that? Okay, set up an experiment and see what we are saying all along. Organize a very big party, after that ask four separate eyewitnesses to provide their own details, and check if they will write down the same detail. Surely some of the details will coincide but will diverge in other places due to difference in interests, being in different places at the event etc.
“the stories starts ADDING in DETAILS the later it is being written .
you CAN’T USE your EARLIEST stories and prove that jesus DIED. YOU need LATER DETAILS to read BACK into earliest stories.”
Response
Stop barging me with speculations drawn from argument from silence, provide real facts that proved that the details were added later. And if you are adamant, then we can as well go to the Quran and hadith, maybe you will come to your senses.
“according to john mary reports that the BODY was MOVED BY unknowns , if we harmonize the account , we have mary RETURNING back to peter to tell him that
“hey, no no no, the body ISN’T moved , an angel appeared to be -he didn’t appear to you peter- and told me body has risen”
imagine if something like this happened today, wouldn’t you say mary need to seek medical help ?”
Response
Is that not the reason why you should consult the harmonization of the accounts before you start embarrassing yourself due to sheer ignorance? When the women went to the early tomb, they discovered that the tomb had been rolled away. Mary Magdalene ran back to go and fetch John and Peter leaving the other women at the scene. While Mary Magdalene was gone, the other women entered the tomb and saw the angels who told them that Jesus had risen and they should go back and tell the disciples. Now, John and Peter were at John’s house while the other disciples were somewhere else probably in Bethany.
John and Peter rushed to the tomb and they found no one while they rushed back to go and meet the disciples probably in Bethany. Mary Magdalene who had no encounter with the angels before came weeping that Jesus body was stolen until Jesus appeared to her to tell her that He has truly risen from the dead. Read the link I gave you above and stop raising non-existent objections!
“thats bs, according to the gospels people BELIEVED that resurrected figures appeared in DIFFERENT faces, so in that time it was not AN UNBELIEVABLE event. people were thinking it was happening all the time.”
Response
Wow! Can you prove that the Jews believed that it is normal for a person to die and rise up by himself after few days? Please provide sound evidence.
You even said that the Gospels said such? Please prove it from the Gospel.
“your “risen” jesus didn’t provide any proof that he was dead.”
Response
Why does Jesus need to prove that He is dead when they are already aware that He is dead? I should be asking you why Jesus did not correct his disciples that he did not actually die but someone else died in His place.
“the gospels realised this, so they helped him out by making up proof on his behalf.”
Response
You mean the Gospels invented the story of Jesus dying on the cross? Please stop screaming and start bringing evidences. All what you have been bringing so far are screams and arguments from silence. Please I want something new.
“well YES, this is the RESURRECTED god on earth who WALKED , farted and SHAT .
THIS is supposed to be AN UNBELIEVABLE EVENT !
of course the gospel writers, ESPECIALLY the earliest ones , need to provide as much as DETAIL as possible !”
Response
That does not sound awful to us because we believed that Jesus is a true human and not a superhuman. He did all of the above because He has a human body but that does not even has a scratch on His Divine Spirit.
And if it sounds repulsive, do not forget that Allah created all these things and he must had thought of all these things before bringing them into existence. Then tell us what these things are even doing in Allah’s thoughts in the first place?
You also said:
“moses was a sinner and he did sins and he got into gods presence without jesus ,says the bible.”
Response
Read what I wrote again and stop parading your illiteracy as an achievement. I said that no man can approach God in the HOLIEST of HOLIES. God appeared to Moses in a veiled form and told Moses that he will die if he should behold the full glory of God.
Second, it was the pre-incarnate Christ (Malak Yahweh) that appeared to Moses not The Father.
“even temple priests were doing RITUALS , deeds and processes using their HANDS and they were sinners who were in gods PRESENCE without needing jesus .”
Response
But you are unaware of the fact that these priests are forbidden to enter the Most Holy place in the Tabernacle (and in the Temple when it was later built by Solomon). Only the high priest is allowed to enter and ONLY once in a year and he must be ceremonially clean otherwise he will die. And if he is to enter the place, he MUST OFFER sacrifice. Remember that this tabernacle is a just a mere copy or shadow of the HEAVENLY one.
Please can you give us anyone who saw the UNVEILED God and approached Him in the Heavenly Holiest of Holies in the OT? None!
“so the flesh of jesus SHOULD be burning in hell since it was filled with unpurifiable sins, jesus’ flesh should be burning in hell .
jesus FLESH is completely polluted with unpurifiable crimes and actions .
the ACTIONS themselves do NOT repent, jesus should be in hell for eternity .”
Response
This is where your ignorance comes into limelight! Who told you that occupants of hell are those who have flesh bodies? No, the flesh will die off in this world before the soul is sent to hell. Hell is not meant to punish the body but to punish the soul.
Hell fire is not a place of literal fire but a place where the goodness of God does not exist at all. It is a place of tears and gnashing of teeth. It will be more terrible than being thrown in a fire. So, you are wrong. The body of Christ suffered from hunger and thirst, bruises and later died – which is the effect of sin on the body.
“jesus was “cut off” only to rejoin with his god. he suffered no penalty , he suffer temporary disconnection for actions which require PERMANENT punishment in the depths of hell”
Response
Yes, HIS soul was cut-off from the presence of His Father. And this is where His Divine Spirit stepped in to intervene by bringing the soul back from hell since Jesus Spirit (Divine component) is greater than eternity. Glory be to God in the highest, our Lord overcome sin on the cross.
“in your dream?”
Response
Oh no! Do not tell me that a goat came in to eat that passage from your copy of the Bible. Well, the internet is there (for now, there are no internet goats), search for the passage and read it. In case you run to your favourite Rabbis, I will be here waiting for you.
“so if it is not guilty then it is sinless.
jesus BECAME guilty which would mean he should be seen as SINNER when COMPARED to an INFANT .”
Response
I must say that you lack comprehension skills. The baby above is sinless but has a sinful nature. Since sin draws its power from the law, the baby is sinless but is of a sinful nature. In a country where there is no law, there is no sin. Jesus became a sinner on the cross not as a result of sin He committed but as a result of the sin of others he carried.
mr.heathcliff also said:
“so yhwh did not SUFFEr in the temple as invisible yhwh in the temple. he USED his POWER to destroy sin, not BECOME meat and then get DESTROYED by sin.
you cannot compare yhwh to your pagan man god, they work completely different.
jesus gets POURED on , yhwh destroys by staying on top of sins.”
Response
No matter how you want your holly-bolly-nolly movie to be shot, the villain still get destroyed while the hero rejoices. Whether sin was poured on Jesus or God sit down on sin to destroy it, it is completely irrelevant in the spiritual world where your geometrical imaginations did not even exist! But I can see that your knowledge of the spiritual world is so poor.
You said:
“god gave moses MORE than animal rituals and he sure would not have abrogated it through a PAGAN man god sacrifice.”
Response
What are the things that are more than animal rituals that God gave to Moses? So you are expecting God to tell Moses that they can present humans as atonement for sin. If Allah is stupid, Yahweh is not. There is a difference between the sacrifice that Moses and the Israelites are to presence AND the sacrifice YAHWEH HIMSELF offers. Only one man among zillions of humans is eligible for the sacrifice and you expect God to tell Moses that human sacrifices are tenable. Moses and others are not the ones to offer the ultimate sacrifice, it is Yahweh Himself. No man offered Jesus as a sacrifice, it was His Father with the permission of the Son.
“when he chat with them in sinai he did not tell the sinners about sin nature, he told them that they could OBEY his commands and they don’t need to be
innocent
2. angels
3. god .”
Response
…how many of them completely obeyed the covenant? None! Yes, the Law was not meant to save them but to reveal their sinful nature. Or who in the OT completely obeyed the covenant? Please tell me.
“READ the damn book. CUTTING NECKS of ANIMALS so blood pours out to APPEASE yhwh IS NOT IMPORTANT STUFF .”
Response
It would be very wonderful when you take to your own advice. Where does the Bible say that sacrifice for sins is not important? Where? I am familiar with most of them, so bring them so that I can expose you.
“it is simply a present which makes yhwh happy. you can also offer him gold, flower , repentance, prayer, rituals, VEGETABLES,”
Response
Read an example of this sacrifice:
“Yahweh spoke to Moses, after the death of the two sons of Aaron, when they drew near before Yahweh, and died; 2and Yahweh said to Moses, “Tell Aaron your brother, not to come at all times into the Most Holy Place within the veil, before the mercy seat which is on the ark; lest he die: for I will appear in the cloud on the mercy seat. 3 “Aaron shall come into the sanctuary with a young bull for a SIN OFFERING, and a ram for a burnt offering. 4He shall put on the holy linen coat. He shall have the linen breeches on his body, and shall put on the linen sash, and he shall be clothed with the linen turban. They are the holy garments. He shall bathe his body in water, and put them on. 5He shall take from the congregation of the children of Israel two male goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering. 6 “Aaron shall offer the bull of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make atonement for himself and for his house. 7He shall take the two goats, and set them before Yahweh at the door of the Tent of Meeting. 8Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats; one lot for Yahweh, and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9Aaron shall present the goat on which the lot fell for Yahweh, and offer him for a sin offering. 10But the goat, on which the lot fell for the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before Yahweh, to make atonement for him, to send him away for the scapegoat into the wilderness. 11 “Aaron shall present the bull of the SIN OFFERING, which is for himself, and shall make atonement for himself and for his house, and shall kill the bull of the sin offering which is for himself. 12He shall take a censer full of coals of fire from off the altar before Yahweh, and two handfuls of sweet incense beaten small, and bring it within the veil: 13and he shall put the incense on the fire before Yahweh, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is on the testimony, so that he will not die. 14He shall take some of the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it with his finger on the mercy seat on the east; and before the mercy seat he shall sprinkle some of the blood with his finger seven times. 15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the veil, and do with his blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat. 16He shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions, even all their sins; and so he shall do for the Tent of Meeting, that dwells with them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17No one shall be in the Tent of Meeting when he enters to make atonement in the Holy Place, until he comes out, and has made atonement for himself and for his household, and for all the assembly of Israel. 18 “He shall go out to the altar that is before Yahweh and make atonement for it, and shall take some of the bull’s blood, and some of the goat’s blood, and put it around on the horns of the altar. 19He shall sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and make it holy from the uncleanness of the children of Israel. 20 “When he has made an end of atoning for the Holy Place, the Tent of Meeting, and the altar, he shall present the live goat. 21Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, even all their sins; and he shall put them on the head of the goat, and shall send him away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who is in readiness. 22The goat shall carry all their iniquities on himself to a solitary land, and he shall let the goat go in the wilderness. 23 “Aaron shall come into the Tent of Meeting, and shall take off the linen garments, which he put on when he went into the Holy Place, and shall leave them there. 24Then he shall bathe himself in water in a holy place, and put on his garments, and come out and offer his burnt offering and the burnt offering of the people, and make atonement for himself and for the people. 25The fat of the sin offering he shall burn on the altar. 26 “He who lets the goat go for the scapegoat shall wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in water, and afterward he shall come into the camp. 27The bull for the sin offering, and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the Holy Place, shall be carried outside the camp; and they shall burn their skins, their flesh, and their dung with fire. 28He who burns them shall wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in water, and afterward he shall come into the camp. 29 “It shall be a statute to you forever: in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall afflict your souls, and shall do no kind of work, the native-born, or the stranger who lives as a foreigner among you: 30for on this day shall atonement be made for you, to cleanse you; from all your sins you shall be clean before Yahweh. 31It is a Sabbath of solemn rest to you, and you shall afflict your souls. It is a statute forever. 32The priest, who is anointed and who is consecrated to be priest in his father’s place, shall make the atonement, and shall put on the linen garments, even the holy garments. 33Then he shall make atonement for the Holy Sanctuary; and he shall make atonement for the Tent of Meeting and for the altar; and he shall make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly. 34 “This shall be an everlasting statute for you, to make atonement for the children of Israel once in the year BECAUSE OF ALL THEIR SINS.” It was done as Yahweh commanded Moses. “ [Leviticus 16:1-34 WEB]
The above example is one of the numerous passages in the OT that flings your theory out of the window.
“blood sacrifice is not IMPORTANT AT ALL SINCE THERE IS NO RULE IN TORAH WHICH SAYS “WITHOUT SHEDDING OF BLOOD NO FORGIVENESS OF SINS”
Response
Really? When the LORD instituted the sacrifice as atonement for sin, I should believe in a Muhammadan who came centuries later to declare them as unimportant? Unless the Torah gives the exact phrase above, it can never carry the meaning. It is a typical Muslim style and I am getting used to it.
“thats your false pagan view which you are reading into the book.
torah says that DOING GOOD is greater than cutting neck of an animal which then would logically imply human sacrifice of jesus is not in the picture.”
Response
Yes, doing good is better than sacrifices in the sense that prevention is better than cure. How does that apply to people already in need of a cure? You are just screaming, bring out evidences from the Bible so that we can send you packing.
“even the earliest christians did not see jesus as magical cooling system .”
Response
Neither did we.
“you are bloody bloody minded blood obsessed RITUAL obsessed pagan human man eating sacrificial loving pagan heathen .”
Response
On that day when you look into His eyes and when you see Muhammad bow down before Him, your knee will give way and will remember these words and weep without anyone to comfort you. You shall give account for every blasphemies uttered against Christ and His Chosen Bride.
Christ is the Risen Lord
Messianic Muslim
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