They weren’t freely forgiven at all. Stop Islamising the text. There was a complete sacrificial system in place. By the initiation of the new covenant that old system was fulfilled.
My turn: why do you ask questions you know the answer to? You say you were a Christian but seem to know nothing (or pretend to) about the faith.
You’ve left one faith you didn’t know and joined another you didn’t know
LOL Cerbie, the people of Jonah were forgiven without any sacrificial system. They achieved salvation merely by repenting. Ergo, Christianity is falsified yet again.
Sure, if one is in the business of Islamising the text. There is a reason that only Muslims come to such a conclusion, unlike ancient Jews and Christians.
Ancient Jews didn’t believe in a dying and rising god. They didn’t believe in that thing you call a trinity. You Christians try to insert your beliefs into the text, that simply aren’t there.
Were the ninevites aware of the other Hebraic texts? Bottom-line is that they repented and were forgiven. No sacrifice needed. That is what the text shows. You’re inserting your a priori beliefs into the text. Sola scriptura, remember? 😉
“Here’s a quiz: how were gentiles to be incorporated into national Israel?”
According to Ezekiel, they were never to be incorporated. The law of keeping foreigners out of the temple was to last forever. If they were to be barred from the temple, how could they possibly be “incorporated into national Israel”?
What a coincidence that when one reads a work in isolation from the literary context it suddenly becomes Islamic! It’s magic, just like flying to Jerusalem at night, right?
Scripture interprets scripture. Fundamental of sola scriptura.
“What a coincidence that when one reads a work in isolation from the literary context it suddenly becomes Islamic! It’s magic, just like flying to Jerusalem at night, right?
Scripture interprets scripture. Fundamental of sola scriptura.”
LOL, no. Interpretation is a subject word, just like saying “scripture interprets scripture”. It is all subjective, because YOU are the one doing the interpreting, and it is obvious you are inserting your own a priori assumptions into the text. It’s just a circular argument.
You still didn’t answer my question, idiot. Were the Ninevites aware of the other “Hebraic texts”?
“I’m sure you can answer this yourself. Who else was barred from entering the temple? (Hint: it wasn’t just gentiles)”
Hmmm, so no answer. It’s business as usual with Cerbie!
Let us go to Ezekiel:
“This is what the Sovereign Lord says: No foreigner uncircumcised in heart and flesh is to enter my sanctuary, not even the foreigners who live among the Israelites.” (44:9)
So tell me, Cerbie. How exactly are the Gentiles supposed to be “incorporated into national Israel” when your god clearly says that they cannot enter his sanctuary? Try to answer my question for once. Don’t do your typical dance and avoid the question.
Muhammad was not a saviour but a warner and bringer of glad tidings. A warner about judgement and hellfire and a bringer of good news about God’s grace and forgiveness. He reminded people of the old time religion of Abraham, Moses etc. Nothing new.
So my question to you is if David had received salvation what is the point of Jesus dying for sins? People were made right with God without it.
You’re still engaging in special pleading. If people can make right with god without jesus’ atonement then they can get right with god without mohammed.
“Muhammad was not a saviour but a warner and bringer of glad tidings. A warner about judgement and hellfire and a bringer of good news about God’s grace and forgiveness”
Which amounts to what? Salvation? I think you are confused about your religion and the role of mohammed in it.
So mohammed’s message had nothing to do with doing right in allah’s eye to achieve salvation? His message is pointless then? Carry out mindless public rituals for no good reason? Islam doesn’t seem to have a point.
Obviously, you can’t provide a substantive rebuttal, only strawman arguments.
Before Muhammad (pbuh), people had to follow their prophets in order to achieve salvation. That meant believing in God, and following His laws. Islam is the universal message which applies to all people since the time of Muhammad (pbuh). Thus, to achieve salvation, people must accept Islam.
grace
ɡrās/Submit
noun
1.
simple elegance or refinement of movement.
“she moved through the water with effortless grace”
synonyms: elegance, poise, gracefulness, finesse; More
2.
(in Christian belief) the free and unmerited favor of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessings.
verb
1.
do honor or credit to (someone or something) by one’s presence.
“she bowed out from the sport she has graced for two decades”
synonyms: dignify, distinguish, honor, favor; enhance, ennoble, glorify, elevate, aggrandize, upgrade
“the occasion was graced by the president
Brian
March 10, 2018 • 9:14 pm
So mohammed’s message had nothing to do with doing right in allah’s eye to achieve salvation? His message is pointless then? Carry out mindless public rituals for no good reason? Islam doesn’t seem to have a point
I say;
. Truthfulness:
“O you who believe! keep your duty to Allah and speak straight, true words.” (Holy Quran 33:70)
“O you who believe, keep your duty to Allah, and be with the truthful people.” (9:119)
“Be maintainers of justice and bearers of true witness for Allah, even if it (the truth) goes against your own selves or parents or relatives or someone who is rich or poor.” (4:135)
2. Sincerity:
“Serve Allah, being sincere to Him in obedience.” (39:2)
“It is most hateful in the sight of Allah that you say things which you do not do.” (61:3)
“Woe to those who pray but are unmindful of their prayers, who do good to be seen.” (107:4-6)
3. Unselfishness:
“You cannot attain to righteousness unless you spend (in charity) out of those things which you love.” (3:91)
“They (the true believers) give food, out of love for Allah, to the poor, the orphan and the slave, saying: We feed you only for Allah’s pleasure – we desire from you neither reward nor thanks.” (76:8-9)
“Do no favour seeking gain.” (74:6)
4. Humility:
“The servants of the Beneficent (Allah) are those who walk on the earth in humility.” (25:63)
“Do not turn your face away from people in contempt, nor go about in the land exultingly.” (31:18)
“Do not ascribe purity to yourselves. Allah knows best who is righteous.” (53:32)
5. Patience:
“Allah loves those who are patient.” (3:145)
“Give good news to the patient, who, when a misfortune befalls them, say: We are Allah’s and to Him do we return.” (2:155-156)
6. Forgiveness:
“Pardon (people) and overlook (their faults). Don’t you love that Allah should forgive you.” (24:22)
“(The dutiful are) . . . those who restrain their anger and pardon people. Allah loves those who do good to others.” (3:134)
“Whenever they (true believers) are angry they forgive.” (42:37)
“The recompense of evil is punishment like it. But whoever forgives (an evil committed against himself) and amends (matters), his reward is with Allah. . . . Whoever is patient and forgives, that is a matter of great resolution.” (42:40, 43)
When the Holy Prophet Muhammad defeated his enemies in Makka and returned to that city as its conqueror, he forgave them in the following words:
“No reproof be against you this day; Allah may forgive you, and He is the most Merciful of those who show mercy.” (12:92)
7. Purity and cleanliness:
“He indeed is successful who purifies himself (in mind and body), and remembers the name of his Lord, then prays.” (87:14-15)
“Purify your garments and shun uncleanness.” (74:4-5)
8. Honesty:
“Don’t go near the property of an orphan, except in a goodly way, till he attains maturity. And fulfil the promise (you make) . . .. Give full measure when you measure out, and weigh with a true balance.” (17:34-35)
“Do not swallow up your property among yourselves by false means, nor offer it as a bribe to the officials so that you may swallow up other people’s property unlawfully while you know.” (2:188)
9. Goodness and kindness to others:
“Allah commands you to uphold justice and to do good to others and to give to the relatives.” (16:90)
Three degrees of doing good are mentioned here: “justice,” which means returning any good that someone has done you with equal good; “do good to others,” which means taking the initiative in doing good to others; and “give to the relatives,” which means doing good to people instinctively and naturally just as one does good to one’s close relatives.
“Do good to others, surely Allah loves those who do good to others.” (2:195)
10. Consideration and respect for others:
“O you who believe! do not enter houses other than your own until you have asked permission and greeted the inmates . . . and if it is said to you, ‘Go back’, then go back.” (24:27-28)
“O you who believe! avoid most of suspicion (against others), for surely suspicion in some cases is sin; and do not spy (into other people’s affairs), nor let some of you backbite others.” (49:12)
“When you are greeted with a greeting, greet with one better than it, or return it (in the same terms at least).” (4:86)
11. Courage:
Speaking of a small number of Muslims facing a big and powerful enemy, the Quran relates:
“Those to whom men said: people have gathered against you, so fear them; but this increased their faith, and they said: Allah is sufficient for us and He is an excellent Guardian.” (3:173)
12. Moderation:
“Eat and drink, but do not be immoderate.” (7:31)
“Do not chain your hand to your neck (so that you are mean in spending), nor stretch it out to the utmost limit (so that you waste everything).” (17:29)
Regarding the performance of religious duties, the Holy Prophet has given the following advice:
“Religion is easy, but any one who exerts himself too much in religious devotions will get overcome by it; so you should just act rightly, and keep to the mean, and be of good cheer, and ask for Allah’s help morning, evening, and a part of the night.” (Bukhari.)
13. Cheerfulness:
“Be of good cheer.” (Holy Prophet in Bukhari.)
“It is an act of charity to meet your fellow with a cheerful face.” (Holy Prophet in Mishkat.)
Finally, we give a verse of the Holy Quran mentioning a number of qualities a Muslim, man or woman, should try to acquire:
“The truthful men and the truthful women, the patient men and the patient women, the humble men and the humble women, the charitable men and the charitable women, the fasting men and the fasting women, the men who guard their chastity and the women who guard their chastity, the men who remember Allah much and the women who remember Allah much – for all these Allah has prepared forgiveness and a great reward.” (33:35)
116. How does Islam require a Muslim to treat the people around him?
The Holy Quran and the Hadith mention various categories of people that one has to deal with, and give a great deal of guidance on how to behave towards them.
1. Parents and the elderly:
“Your Lord has commanded that you worship none but Him, and do good to parents. If one or both of them reach old age with you, do not say ‘Fie’ to them, nor chide them, but speak to them a generous word . . . and say, My Lord, have mercy on them as they brought me up when I was little.” (17:23-24).
“The Holy Prophet said, It is one of the greatest sins that a man should curse his parents. Someone said, How can a man curse his own parents? He said, If a man abuses the father of another, that person will abuse his parents (in return).” (Report in Bukhari.)
2. Other Near Relatives:
“Do good to the near relatives.” (4:36)
“Give to the near relative his due, and also to the needy and to the traveller (in need of help). (17:26).
3. Children:
“Do not kill your children for fear of poverty – We (Allah) provide for them and for you.” (17:31)
“A man came to the Holy Prophet and said, `You kiss children but we do not kiss them’. The Holy Prophet said, `Do I have any control over you if Allah has taken away mercy from your heart’.” (Report in Bukhari.)
4. Orphans and destitute children:
“Maintain the orphans out of their property and clothe them and give them a good education. Test them when they reach the age of majority, and if you find them to be mature, hand over their property to them.” (4:5-6)
“I and the man who brings up an orphan will be in paradise like this,” said the Holy Prophet, putting together his forefinger and middle finger. (Report in Bukhari.)
5. Poor and needy:
“Righteous is he who . . . gives away wealth out of love for Him to the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask and to set slaves free.” (2:177)
“What will make you understand what the uphill road (to success) is? (It is) to free a slave, or feed at a time of hunger an orphan who is a relative or the poor man lying in the dust.” (90:11-16)
“Have you seen him who goes against religion? That is the one who is rough to the orphan and does not urge the feeding of the needy.” (107:1-3)
“(The true believers are those) in whose wealth there is a known right for the beggar and the destitute.” (70:24-25)
“The person who manages things for the widow and the poor is like the one who strives hard in the way of Allah.” (Holy Prophet in Bukhari.)
6. Neighbours:
so you disagree with Paul Wiliams that mohammed did not bring a way to salvation. He claims that mohammed’s message was not about salvation, you say it is. Clearly, I was correct to say that Paul does not understand the role of his prophet in islam.
“Before Muhammad (pbuh), people had to follow their prophets in order to achieve salvation. That meant believing in God, and following His laws. Islam is the universal message which applies to all people since the time of Muhammad (pbuh). Thus, to achieve salvation, people must accept Islam.”
This pretty much contradicts much of what I have heard muslims say about previous religions. Muslims deny the idea of different covenants give to different prophets at different times, yet you seem to be admitting that very thing!
Muslims typically argue that mohammed brought other religions back to the original religion of abraham – something you have completely admitted is a false belief.
As I said, people had to follow their prophets. But all the prophets brought the same message, which was to worship God alone and to follow His laws. Of course Islam is a continuation of that. And yes, it is reaffirming the pristine monotheism of all the prophets, including Abraham (pbuh). What are you not getting here?
You said;
“Muhammad was not a saviour but a warner and bringer of glad tidings. A warner about judgement and hellfire and a bringer of good news about God’s grace and forgiveness”
Which amounts to what? Salvation? I think you are confused about your religion and the role of mohammed in it.
I say;
Paul Williams said;
“Muhammad was not a saviour but a warner and bringer of glad tidings. A warner about judgement and hellfire and a bringer of good news about God’s grace and forgiveness”
In what Paul Williams quoted you will find;
“A warner about judgement and hellfire and a bringer of good news about God’s grace and forgiveness”
Don’t you what understand the above? You want to hear and see salvation. What is grace and forgiveness?
All the OT saints believed in the LORD and His promised Messiah.
That is the whole point of Genesis 15:1-6. (Abraham and his faith was in the LORD AND the promised one from his own body/seed. (that is why Matthew’s geneology is so important – through Isaac, etc. and Luke’s is about from David to Nathan to Mary.)
‘I saw the Lord always in my presence;
For He is at my right hand, so that I will not be shaken.
26 ‘Therefore my heart was glad and my tongue exulted;
Moreover my flesh also will live in hope;
27 Because You will not abandon my soul to Hades,
Nor [y]allow Your [z]Holy One to [aa]undergo decay.
28 ‘You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of gladness with Your presence.’
Quote from Psalm 16:8-11
So the text says David spoke of the Messiah and His resurrection from the dead in Psalm 16.
Also, later in Acts 2:34 the text says that David (but he himself says) that the Messiah is the “My Lord” (Greek; kurios for both Yahweh and Adonai – same nature for both the Father and the Son)
For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says:
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”’
Quoting Psalm 110:1-2
Than in Acts 13, he quotes from Psalm 2:7 and Psalm 16 again and Psalm 89, proving that the Messiah that David prophesied about is in fact Jesus Al Masih who was crucified and rose from the dead.
Acts 13:28-42
28 And though they found no ground for putting Him to death, they asked Pilate that He be executed.
29 When they had carried out all that was written concerning Him, they took Him down from the cross and laid Him in a tomb.
30 But God raised Him from the dead;
31 and for many days He appeared to those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, the very ones who are now His witnesses to the people.
32 And we preach to you the good news of the promise made to the fathers,
33 that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, ‘You are My Son; today I have begotten You.’ (Psalm 2:7- showing Messiah is the Son – see Mark 14:60-64)
34 As for the fact that He raised Him up from the dead, no longer to return to decay, He has spoken in this way: ‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.’
35 Therefore He also says in another Psalm, ‘You will not allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.’ (Psalm 16:10)
36 For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep, and was laid among his fathers and underwent decay;
37 but He whom God raised did not undergo decay.
38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,
39 and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.
40 Therefore take heed, so that the thing spoken of in the Prophets may not come upon you:
41 ‘Behold, you scoffers, and marvel, and perish;
For I am accomplishing a work in your days,
A work which you will never believe, though someone should describe it to you.’” (quoted Habakkuk 1:5)
42 As Paul and Barnabas were going out, the people kept begging that these things might be spoken to them the next Sabbath.
43 Now when the meeting of the synagogue had broken up, many of the Jews and of the God-fearing proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, were urging them to continue in the grace of God.
Jesus, in the Gospel that most all scholars believe is the earliest gospel in Mark 14:50-64 shows that He is the Messiah and the Son of God and the Jews understood all those texts as about the Messiah as also by nature the Son of God. (Psalm 2, 110: Daniel 7:13-14; with the passages in Acts 2 and 13, shows that David’s faith was in the Messiah to come who he prophesied of in Psalm 16, 110, and 2; and David in Psalm 51, confessed his sins and repented AND showed that faith in the OT included the OT sacrifices – verse 6
“Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.” (Psalm 51:6)
hyssop was the branch used as a brush to apply the sacrificed blood.
David includes both faith and repentance and the blood sacrifices.
David includes both faith in the one true God, Yahweh, the LORD, and His coming Messiah.
As did Abraham, in Genesis 15:1-6; 12:3; 22:18 – proved in John 8:56-58.
They all, all OT believers, looked for and believed in the coming promise of the one who would be born of the woman’s seed who would defeat Satan. Genesis 3:15
The book of Jonah does not give all the details. Obviously, the Assyrians had to be taught about blood sacrifice later.
A typical response from Kenny. A meaningless rant full of isolated Biblical verses peppered with his own asinine interpretations. But the irony is that the majority of your post is rendered moot with your last statement:
“The book of Jonah does not give all the details. Obviously, the Assyrians had to be taught about blood sacrifice later.”
Oh, how convenient! Kenny just assumes that the Assyrians “had to be taught about blood sacrifice later”, but how do you know that? Where does it say that in your “scripture”? This baseless assumptions renders the rest of your rant completely moot. There is no evidence in your Bible that the Assyrians were taught about blood sacrifice. You are inserting your own views into the text to save yourself from having to admit the truth. Let us see what the text says:
“By the decree of the king and his nobles:
Do not let people or animals, herds or flocks, taste anything; do not let them eat or drink. 8 But let people and animals be covered with sackcloth. Let everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence. 9 Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish.”
10 When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened.”
The people repented, and as a symbol of their repentance, they fasted. This was enough to be forgiven. If a blood sacrifice had been needed, they why didn’t Jonah (pbuh) tell them to sacrifice some animals instead? They obviously had plenty of animals. The fact is that God never needed a blood sacrifice. He can forgive sins if people simply repent and change their ways. Notice that the Ninevites did not simply say “OK God, we’re sorry”. The king said that they must also “give up their evil ways and their violence”. Repentance goes hand in hand with a change in action. Once the Ninevites did that, God forgave them. Keep your silly Christian assumptions out of the text.
‘I saw the Lord always in my presence;
For He is at my right hand, so that I will not be shaken.
26 ‘Therefore my heart was glad and my tongue exulted;
Moreover my flesh also will live in hope;
27 Because You will not abandon my soul to Hades,
Nor [y]allow Your [z]Holy One to [aa]undergo decay.
28 ‘You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of gladness with Your presence.’
Hahaha, 1st century Jews utilized the OT for a lot of things. They used it to believe that there was no afterlife (Sadducees). They used it to believe that the end was coming very soon (Qumran community and 1st century Jewish-Christians). So what’s your point? Obviously, the views of some anonymous 1st-century Jews doesn’t mean anything. Try again, Cerbie.
Yaaaaawn, little Kendra’s melodrama is putting me to sleep.
I don’t see little Kendra lecturing his brother in faith Paulus. Hmmm, methinks little Kendra doth protest too much.
Getting frustrated Kendra? The story of Jonah seems to be a thorn in your side. You simply cannot explain why the Ninevites were forgiven without a blood sacrifice. Don’t blame me for your failures. Blame yourself and your contradictory Bible.
“Before Muhammad (pbuh), people had to follow their prophets in order to achieve salvation. That meant believing in God, and following His laws. Islam is the universal message which applies to all people since the time of Muhammad (pbuh). Thus, to achieve salvation, people must accept Islam.”
That’s not what Jesus said.
“The Rich Young Man
(Matthew 19:16-30; Luke 18:18-30)
17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? 18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. 19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
Neither did James:
2 v 8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Madman, you ran away from another post only to show up at another? Are you looking for more humiliation?
Jesus (pbuh) was sent only to the Israelites:
“He was no more than a servant: We granted Our favour to him, and We made him an example to the Children of Israel.” (Holy Quran, 43:59).
Even the Gospels agree:
“I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”” (Matt. 15:24).
By the way madman, since you ran away from our last discussion, can you explain why only Peter had the “vision” about all foods being clean, and yet Jesus said that all things must be corroborated by at least two witnesses? And what about the blood and menstruation issue? Don’t think I forgot! 😉
“…every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.”
Peter’s alleged “vision” violates your savior’s command, because it basically abrogated the dietary laws of the Tanakh. In order for it to be established that all food is now magically “clean”, the miraculous “vision” should have been witnessed by at least two people.
The punishment for rape depends upon if the rapist is married or not. If married, then he is executed. If not, then the punishment would be flogging.
The other sheep are the Gentiles which Jesus said he will bring in to the fold. So his mission is not just to the Jews.
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
LOL, that’s from the gospel of John. It directly contradicts the Synoptic gospels. You savior is reduced to a confused messenger who doesn’t know if he’s coming or going.
“the Ninevites were forgiven without a blood sacrifice. ”
There is no indication that the Ninevites were forgiven in the sense of being fully justified.
10And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
They simply had respite from a particular judgement which God thought to visit upon them for certain evils which they committed.
You still have to up your game Faiz to get the better of me 🙂
ROFTL, making a bigger fool of yourself already? You have only been back a day! 😉
Just another silly Christian assumption, with no scriptural evidence! Why do you idiots add your own opinions to the text? The text says that the punishment for their wicked ways was to perish, and the king hoped that God would relent and they would not perish. They did not perish! If they were simply given “respite”, then why isn’t there a warning that the punishment has simply been delayed?
Try again, madman. You got the better of yourself! 🙂
Jesus has never been recorded as saying “I forgive …” or ” I have forgiven ….”, the same way God does in Numbers 14:20.
Rather in the NT, Jesus has been recorded as saying: “…your sins are forgiven,” in Mark 2:9, Luke 5:20, Mark 2:5, Matthew 9:5, 1 John 2:12,Matthew 9:2. NOT ONCE INSTANCE, does Jesus say I FORGIVE or I HAVE FORGIVEN.
What difference does it make? The latter implies that God has given the authority to forgive sins , like He did to the Jewish priests in Leviticus 4:20.
Therefore Jesus is claiming a priestly status and not a divine one.
But we know that Christians make things up and insert their own assumptions into the text. That’s why there is such nonsense as the trinity, blood sacrifice and other Christian mumbo-jumbo. Try again, Cerbie.
LOL, when have I run away? I’ve been here the whole time. You took a beating as usual and ran off to spew your nonsense elsewhere! So Cerbie, why didn’t your Canaanite god require a blood sacrifice from the Ninevites? And how old were the little girls he allowed to be taken as slaves? 😉
“LOL, that’s from the gospel of John. It directly contradicts the Synoptic gospels. You savior is reduced to a confused messenger who doesn’t know if he’s coming or going.”
Not at all. If he is only sent to the Jews that does not mean he cannot be active for the Gentiles in another sphere of activity, at another time, through other means but still in a way that is conditional upon and rooted in his earthly ministry to the Jews.
“Peter’s alleged “vision” violates your savior’s command, because it basically abrogated the dietary laws of the Tanakh. In order for it to be established that all food is now magically “clean”, the miraculous “vision” should have been witnessed by at least two people.”
It was a sign that the old covenant has been superseded. How can a vision be witnessed if it occurs within the mind of the person involved?
“The punishment for rape depends upon if the rapist is married or not. If married, then he is executed. If not, then the punishment would be flogging.”
If the victim of the rape is made pregnant and has a child, what happens to her under islamic law?
“Not at all. If he is only sent to the Jews that does not mean he cannot be active for the Gentiles in another sphere of activity, at another time, through other means but still in a way that is conditional upon and rooted in his earthly ministry to the Jews.”
Classic! A Christian yet again trying to have it both ways! But alas, you can’t have your cake and eat it too! Either your savior came to all mankind or only to a particular group. He clearly said he was sent to the lost sheep of Israel only.
“It was a sign that the old covenant has been superseded. How can a vision be witnessed if it occurs within the mind of the person involved?”
That’s exactly the point! It shouldn’t have been communicated via a “vision” which would have been “seen” by one person only! It should have been shown to multiple witnesses so that the “sign” would be established. As it stands, the so-called “vision” violates your savior’s rule.
“If the victim of the rape is made pregnant and has a child, what happens to her under islamic law?”
Visions and signs are different things and God is not held to any law concerning them. You are just taking something out of it’s context.
“In order for it to be established that all food is now magically “clean”, the miraculous “vision” should have been witnessed by at least two people. ”
Visions and signs of God are not subject to any laws.
Should we rely on visions and spiritual experience as a basis of faith? If a Hindu comes and tells me that he saw Ganesh in his dreams, and that confirms to him his belief in Hinduism, how would you respond as a Christian? How do we account for your spiritual experience and discount a Hindu’s?
You are making up your own asinine excuses. Your savior said that every matter must be established on the basis of two or three witnesses. What if someone claimed to have had a “vision” but was lying? Or if the “vision” was just a hallucination? What if it was demonic vision? Your stuck between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand, your savior said to rely on witnesses to establish EVERY matter, and yet a major change in the dietary laws of the Tanakh was made on the basis of an alleged “vision” seen by only one person. To make it worse, the account of this “vision” was made by a third party (let’s assume it is “Luke”) who was not present when said “vision” occurred.
Blogging Theology 
What’s your religion?
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Not this again.
Old Covenant. New Covenant.
When will you actually pretend to honestly represent the faith you hate so much?
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If David had received salvation what is the point of Jesus dying for sins? People were made right with God without it.
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Because Jesus initiated the new covenant.
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so what was the point of his death?
You keep avoiding my point:
people’s sins were already freely forgiven by God.
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They weren’t freely forgiven at all. Stop Islamising the text. There was a complete sacrificial system in place. By the initiation of the new covenant that old system was fulfilled.
My turn: why do you ask questions you know the answer to? You say you were a Christian but seem to know nothing (or pretend to) about the faith.
You’ve left one faith you didn’t know and joined another you didn’t know
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LOL Cerbie, the people of Jonah were forgiven without any sacrificial system. They achieved salvation merely by repenting. Ergo, Christianity is falsified yet again.
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Sure, if one is in the business of Islamising the text. There is a reason that only Muslims come to such a conclusion, unlike ancient Jews and Christians.
But I don’t expect honesty from you.
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Lol, “ancient Jews”. Get a load of this guy!
Ancient Jews didn’t believe in a dying and rising god. They didn’t believe in that thing you call a trinity. You Christians try to insert your beliefs into the text, that simply aren’t there.
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Paulus don’t run away.
‘the people of Jonah were forgiven without any sacrificial system’
this is factually correct. They were not Jews.
Try again.
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You’re reading jonah in isolation from the Hebraic context. An argument from silence
Here’s a quiz: how were gentiles to be incorporated into national Israel?
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Were the ninevites aware of the other Hebraic texts? Bottom-line is that they repented and were forgiven. No sacrifice needed. That is what the text shows. You’re inserting your a priori beliefs into the text. Sola scriptura, remember? 😉
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so were the non-Jews forgiven or not? Simple question. The book say yes they were!
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“Here’s a quiz: how were gentiles to be incorporated into national Israel?”
According to Ezekiel, they were never to be incorporated. The law of keeping foreigners out of the temple was to last forever. If they were to be barred from the temple, how could they possibly be “incorporated into national Israel”?
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What a coincidence that when one reads a work in isolation from the literary context it suddenly becomes Islamic! It’s magic, just like flying to Jerusalem at night, right?
Scripture interprets scripture. Fundamental of sola scriptura.
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a man-made doctrine that the Bible does not teach.
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“If they were to be barred from the temple, how could they possibly be “incorporated into national Israel”?“
I’m sure you can answer this yourself. Who else was barred from entering the temple? (Hint: it wasn’t just gentiles)
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“What a coincidence that when one reads a work in isolation from the literary context it suddenly becomes Islamic! It’s magic, just like flying to Jerusalem at night, right?
Scripture interprets scripture. Fundamental of sola scriptura.”
LOL, no. Interpretation is a subject word, just like saying “scripture interprets scripture”. It is all subjective, because YOU are the one doing the interpreting, and it is obvious you are inserting your own a priori assumptions into the text. It’s just a circular argument.
You still didn’t answer my question, idiot. Were the Ninevites aware of the other “Hebraic texts”?
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“I’m sure you can answer this yourself. Who else was barred from entering the temple? (Hint: it wasn’t just gentiles)”
Hmmm, so no answer. It’s business as usual with Cerbie!
Let us go to Ezekiel:
“This is what the Sovereign Lord says: No foreigner uncircumcised in heart and flesh is to enter my sanctuary, not even the foreigners who live among the Israelites.” (44:9)
So tell me, Cerbie. How exactly are the Gentiles supposed to be “incorporated into national Israel” when your god clearly says that they cannot enter his sanctuary? Try to answer my question for once. Don’t do your typical dance and avoid the question.
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Logical reasoning is not your strong point, Paul.
If David was able to receive salvation before Jesus, then mohammed was unnecessary. You have undermined the religion of mohammed.
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Muhammad was not a saviour but a warner and bringer of glad tidings. A warner about judgement and hellfire and a bringer of good news about God’s grace and forgiveness. He reminded people of the old time religion of Abraham, Moses etc. Nothing new.
So my question to you is if David had received salvation what is the point of Jesus dying for sins? People were made right with God without it.
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You’re still engaging in special pleading. If people can make right with god without jesus’ atonement then they can get right with god without mohammed.
“Muhammad was not a saviour but a warner and bringer of glad tidings. A warner about judgement and hellfire and a bringer of good news about God’s grace and forgiveness”
Which amounts to what? Salvation? I think you are confused about your religion and the role of mohammed in it.
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so teach me about Muhammad’s role in Islam..
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Deflecting as usual. That’s the Christian way. When cornered, change the subject and talk about Islam.
But brother Paul straightened Brian out. Christian logic fails again.
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Paul has tried to change the subject. If David can receive salvation directly from god, then why do we need mohamed?
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but Muhammad does not forgive sins or bring us salvation. Only God does that.
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So mohammed’s message had nothing to do with doing right in allah’s eye to achieve salvation? His message is pointless then? Carry out mindless public rituals for no good reason? Islam doesn’t seem to have a point.
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Obviously, you can’t provide a substantive rebuttal, only strawman arguments.
Before Muhammad (pbuh), people had to follow their prophets in order to achieve salvation. That meant believing in God, and following His laws. Islam is the universal message which applies to all people since the time of Muhammad (pbuh). Thus, to achieve salvation, people must accept Islam.
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grace
ɡrās/Submit
noun
1.
simple elegance or refinement of movement.
“she moved through the water with effortless grace”
synonyms: elegance, poise, gracefulness, finesse; More
2.
(in Christian belief) the free and unmerited favor of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessings.
verb
1.
do honor or credit to (someone or something) by one’s presence.
“she bowed out from the sport she has graced for two decades”
synonyms: dignify, distinguish, honor, favor; enhance, ennoble, glorify, elevate, aggrandize, upgrade
“the occasion was graced by the president
Source:
https://www.google.ca/search?rlz=1C1AVFC_enCA772CA772&ei=eFCkWtvQMIvEjwTbjq7IBg&q=what+is+grace&oq=what+is+gra&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0i67k1j0l9.211652.216616.0.219289.12.12.0.0.0.0.157.1137.10j2.12.0….0…1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.12.1133….0.dJSP_7pNgSI
It is not good to bring Christian jargon into Islam.
Thanks.
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Brian
March 10, 2018 • 9:14 pm
So mohammed’s message had nothing to do with doing right in allah’s eye to achieve salvation? His message is pointless then? Carry out mindless public rituals for no good reason? Islam doesn’t seem to have a point
I say;
. Truthfulness:
“O you who believe! keep your duty to Allah and speak straight, true words.” (Holy Quran 33:70)
“O you who believe, keep your duty to Allah, and be with the truthful people.” (9:119)
“Be maintainers of justice and bearers of true witness for Allah, even if it (the truth) goes against your own selves or parents or relatives or someone who is rich or poor.” (4:135)
2. Sincerity:
“Serve Allah, being sincere to Him in obedience.” (39:2)
“It is most hateful in the sight of Allah that you say things which you do not do.” (61:3)
“Woe to those who pray but are unmindful of their prayers, who do good to be seen.” (107:4-6)
3. Unselfishness:
“You cannot attain to righteousness unless you spend (in charity) out of those things which you love.” (3:91)
“They (the true believers) give food, out of love for Allah, to the poor, the orphan and the slave, saying: We feed you only for Allah’s pleasure – we desire from you neither reward nor thanks.” (76:8-9)
“Do no favour seeking gain.” (74:6)
4. Humility:
“The servants of the Beneficent (Allah) are those who walk on the earth in humility.” (25:63)
“Do not turn your face away from people in contempt, nor go about in the land exultingly.” (31:18)
“Do not ascribe purity to yourselves. Allah knows best who is righteous.” (53:32)
5. Patience:
“Allah loves those who are patient.” (3:145)
“Give good news to the patient, who, when a misfortune befalls them, say: We are Allah’s and to Him do we return.” (2:155-156)
6. Forgiveness:
“Pardon (people) and overlook (their faults). Don’t you love that Allah should forgive you.” (24:22)
“(The dutiful are) . . . those who restrain their anger and pardon people. Allah loves those who do good to others.” (3:134)
“Whenever they (true believers) are angry they forgive.” (42:37)
“The recompense of evil is punishment like it. But whoever forgives (an evil committed against himself) and amends (matters), his reward is with Allah. . . . Whoever is patient and forgives, that is a matter of great resolution.” (42:40, 43)
When the Holy Prophet Muhammad defeated his enemies in Makka and returned to that city as its conqueror, he forgave them in the following words:
“No reproof be against you this day; Allah may forgive you, and He is the most Merciful of those who show mercy.” (12:92)
7. Purity and cleanliness:
“He indeed is successful who purifies himself (in mind and body), and remembers the name of his Lord, then prays.” (87:14-15)
“Purify your garments and shun uncleanness.” (74:4-5)
8. Honesty:
“Don’t go near the property of an orphan, except in a goodly way, till he attains maturity. And fulfil the promise (you make) . . .. Give full measure when you measure out, and weigh with a true balance.” (17:34-35)
“Do not swallow up your property among yourselves by false means, nor offer it as a bribe to the officials so that you may swallow up other people’s property unlawfully while you know.” (2:188)
9. Goodness and kindness to others:
“Allah commands you to uphold justice and to do good to others and to give to the relatives.” (16:90)
Three degrees of doing good are mentioned here: “justice,” which means returning any good that someone has done you with equal good; “do good to others,” which means taking the initiative in doing good to others; and “give to the relatives,” which means doing good to people instinctively and naturally just as one does good to one’s close relatives.
“Do good to others, surely Allah loves those who do good to others.” (2:195)
10. Consideration and respect for others:
“O you who believe! do not enter houses other than your own until you have asked permission and greeted the inmates . . . and if it is said to you, ‘Go back’, then go back.” (24:27-28)
“O you who believe! avoid most of suspicion (against others), for surely suspicion in some cases is sin; and do not spy (into other people’s affairs), nor let some of you backbite others.” (49:12)
“When you are greeted with a greeting, greet with one better than it, or return it (in the same terms at least).” (4:86)
11. Courage:
Speaking of a small number of Muslims facing a big and powerful enemy, the Quran relates:
“Those to whom men said: people have gathered against you, so fear them; but this increased their faith, and they said: Allah is sufficient for us and He is an excellent Guardian.” (3:173)
12. Moderation:
“Eat and drink, but do not be immoderate.” (7:31)
“Do not chain your hand to your neck (so that you are mean in spending), nor stretch it out to the utmost limit (so that you waste everything).” (17:29)
Regarding the performance of religious duties, the Holy Prophet has given the following advice:
“Religion is easy, but any one who exerts himself too much in religious devotions will get overcome by it; so you should just act rightly, and keep to the mean, and be of good cheer, and ask for Allah’s help morning, evening, and a part of the night.” (Bukhari.)
13. Cheerfulness:
“Be of good cheer.” (Holy Prophet in Bukhari.)
“It is an act of charity to meet your fellow with a cheerful face.” (Holy Prophet in Mishkat.)
Finally, we give a verse of the Holy Quran mentioning a number of qualities a Muslim, man or woman, should try to acquire:
“The truthful men and the truthful women, the patient men and the patient women, the humble men and the humble women, the charitable men and the charitable women, the fasting men and the fasting women, the men who guard their chastity and the women who guard their chastity, the men who remember Allah much and the women who remember Allah much – for all these Allah has prepared forgiveness and a great reward.” (33:35)
116. How does Islam require a Muslim to treat the people around him?
The Holy Quran and the Hadith mention various categories of people that one has to deal with, and give a great deal of guidance on how to behave towards them.
1. Parents and the elderly:
“Your Lord has commanded that you worship none but Him, and do good to parents. If one or both of them reach old age with you, do not say ‘Fie’ to them, nor chide them, but speak to them a generous word . . . and say, My Lord, have mercy on them as they brought me up when I was little.” (17:23-24).
“The Holy Prophet said, It is one of the greatest sins that a man should curse his parents. Someone said, How can a man curse his own parents? He said, If a man abuses the father of another, that person will abuse his parents (in return).” (Report in Bukhari.)
2. Other Near Relatives:
“Do good to the near relatives.” (4:36)
“Give to the near relative his due, and also to the needy and to the traveller (in need of help). (17:26).
3. Children:
“Do not kill your children for fear of poverty – We (Allah) provide for them and for you.” (17:31)
“A man came to the Holy Prophet and said, `You kiss children but we do not kiss them’. The Holy Prophet said, `Do I have any control over you if Allah has taken away mercy from your heart’.” (Report in Bukhari.)
4. Orphans and destitute children:
“Maintain the orphans out of their property and clothe them and give them a good education. Test them when they reach the age of majority, and if you find them to be mature, hand over their property to them.” (4:5-6)
“I and the man who brings up an orphan will be in paradise like this,” said the Holy Prophet, putting together his forefinger and middle finger. (Report in Bukhari.)
5. Poor and needy:
“Righteous is he who . . . gives away wealth out of love for Him to the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask and to set slaves free.” (2:177)
“What will make you understand what the uphill road (to success) is? (It is) to free a slave, or feed at a time of hunger an orphan who is a relative or the poor man lying in the dust.” (90:11-16)
“Have you seen him who goes against religion? That is the one who is rough to the orphan and does not urge the feeding of the needy.” (107:1-3)
“(The true believers are those) in whose wealth there is a known right for the beggar and the destitute.” (70:24-25)
“The person who manages things for the widow and the poor is like the one who strives hard in the way of Allah.” (Holy Prophet in Bukhari.)
6. Neighbours:
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quranannd bible
so you disagree with Paul Wiliams that mohammed did not bring a way to salvation. He claims that mohammed’s message was not about salvation, you say it is. Clearly, I was correct to say that Paul does not understand the role of his prophet in islam.
“Before Muhammad (pbuh), people had to follow their prophets in order to achieve salvation. That meant believing in God, and following His laws. Islam is the universal message which applies to all people since the time of Muhammad (pbuh). Thus, to achieve salvation, people must accept Islam.”
This pretty much contradicts much of what I have heard muslims say about previous religions. Muslims deny the idea of different covenants give to different prophets at different times, yet you seem to be admitting that very thing!
Muslims typically argue that mohammed brought other religions back to the original religion of abraham – something you have completely admitted is a false belief.
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Wow, more strawman arguments.
As I said, people had to follow their prophets. But all the prophets brought the same message, which was to worship God alone and to follow His laws. Of course Islam is a continuation of that. And yes, it is reaffirming the pristine monotheism of all the prophets, including Abraham (pbuh). What are you not getting here?
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‘Muslims deny the idea of different covenants give to different prophets at different times’ –
really? Give me a quote on that
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Brian
You said;
“Muhammad was not a saviour but a warner and bringer of glad tidings. A warner about judgement and hellfire and a bringer of good news about God’s grace and forgiveness”
Which amounts to what? Salvation? I think you are confused about your religion and the role of mohammed in it.
I say;
Paul Williams said;
“Muhammad was not a saviour but a warner and bringer of glad tidings. A warner about judgement and hellfire and a bringer of good news about God’s grace and forgiveness”
In what Paul Williams quoted you will find;
“A warner about judgement and hellfire and a bringer of good news about God’s grace and forgiveness”
Don’t you what understand the above? You want to hear and see salvation. What is grace and forgiveness?
Grace means salvation:
Proof
to be continued………..
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All the OT saints believed in the LORD and His promised Messiah.
That is the whole point of Genesis 15:1-6. (Abraham and his faith was in the LORD AND the promised one from his own body/seed. (that is why Matthew’s geneology is so important – through Isaac, etc. and Luke’s is about from David to Nathan to Mary.)
David was also trusting in the Messiah to come:
Acts 2:25 – the text says:
Δαυὶδ γὰρ λέγει εἰς αὐτόν προορώμην τὸν κύριον ἐνώπιόν μου διὰ παντός ὅτι ἐκ δεξιῶν μού ἐστιν ἵνα μὴ σαλευθῶ
For David says of Him,
‘I saw the Lord always in my presence;
For He is at my right hand, so that I will not be shaken.
26 ‘Therefore my heart was glad and my tongue exulted;
Moreover my flesh also will live in hope;
27 Because You will not abandon my soul to Hades,
Nor [y]allow Your [z]Holy One to [aa]undergo decay.
28 ‘You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of gladness with Your presence.’
Quote from Psalm 16:8-11
So the text says David spoke of the Messiah and His resurrection from the dead in Psalm 16.
Also, later in Acts 2:34 the text says that David (but he himself says) that the Messiah is the “My Lord” (Greek; kurios for both Yahweh and Adonai – same nature for both the Father and the Son)
For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says:
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”’
Quoting Psalm 110:1-2
Than in Acts 13, he quotes from Psalm 2:7 and Psalm 16 again and Psalm 89, proving that the Messiah that David prophesied about is in fact Jesus Al Masih who was crucified and rose from the dead.
Acts 13:28-42
28 And though they found no ground for putting Him to death, they asked Pilate that He be executed.
29 When they had carried out all that was written concerning Him, they took Him down from the cross and laid Him in a tomb.
30 But God raised Him from the dead;
31 and for many days He appeared to those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, the very ones who are now His witnesses to the people.
32 And we preach to you the good news of the promise made to the fathers,
33 that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, ‘You are My Son; today I have begotten You.’ (Psalm 2:7- showing Messiah is the Son – see Mark 14:60-64)
34 As for the fact that He raised Him up from the dead, no longer to return to decay, He has spoken in this way: ‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.’
35 Therefore He also says in another Psalm, ‘You will not allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.’ (Psalm 16:10)
36 For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep, and was laid among his fathers and underwent decay;
37 but He whom God raised did not undergo decay.
38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,
39 and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.
40 Therefore take heed, so that the thing spoken of in the Prophets may not come upon you:
41 ‘Behold, you scoffers, and marvel, and perish;
For I am accomplishing a work in your days,
A work which you will never believe, though someone should describe it to you.’” (quoted Habakkuk 1:5)
42 As Paul and Barnabas were going out, the people kept begging that these things might be spoken to them the next Sabbath.
43 Now when the meeting of the synagogue had broken up, many of the Jews and of the God-fearing proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, were urging them to continue in the grace of God.
Jesus, in the Gospel that most all scholars believe is the earliest gospel in Mark 14:50-64 shows that He is the Messiah and the Son of God and the Jews understood all those texts as about the Messiah as also by nature the Son of God. (Psalm 2, 110: Daniel 7:13-14; with the passages in Acts 2 and 13, shows that David’s faith was in the Messiah to come who he prophesied of in Psalm 16, 110, and 2; and David in Psalm 51, confessed his sins and repented AND showed that faith in the OT included the OT sacrifices – verse 6
“Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.” (Psalm 51:6)
hyssop was the branch used as a brush to apply the sacrificed blood.
David includes both faith and repentance and the blood sacrifices.
David includes both faith in the one true God, Yahweh, the LORD, and His coming Messiah.
As did Abraham, in Genesis 15:1-6; 12:3; 22:18 – proved in John 8:56-58.
They all, all OT believers, looked for and believed in the coming promise of the one who would be born of the woman’s seed who would defeat Satan. Genesis 3:15
The book of Jonah does not give all the details. Obviously, the Assyrians had to be taught about blood sacrifice later.
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A typical response from Kenny. A meaningless rant full of isolated Biblical verses peppered with his own asinine interpretations. But the irony is that the majority of your post is rendered moot with your last statement:
“The book of Jonah does not give all the details. Obviously, the Assyrians had to be taught about blood sacrifice later.”
Oh, how convenient! Kenny just assumes that the Assyrians “had to be taught about blood sacrifice later”, but how do you know that? Where does it say that in your “scripture”? This baseless assumptions renders the rest of your rant completely moot. There is no evidence in your Bible that the Assyrians were taught about blood sacrifice. You are inserting your own views into the text to save yourself from having to admit the truth. Let us see what the text says:
“By the decree of the king and his nobles:
Do not let people or animals, herds or flocks, taste anything; do not let them eat or drink. 8 But let people and animals be covered with sackcloth. Let everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence. 9 Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish.”
10 When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened.”
The people repented, and as a symbol of their repentance, they fasted. This was enough to be forgiven. If a blood sacrifice had been needed, they why didn’t Jonah (pbuh) tell them to sacrifice some animals instead? They obviously had plenty of animals. The fact is that God never needed a blood sacrifice. He can forgive sins if people simply repent and change their ways. Notice that the Ninevites did not simply say “OK God, we’re sorry”. The king said that they must also “give up their evil ways and their violence”. Repentance goes hand in hand with a change in action. Once the Ninevites did that, God forgave them. Keep your silly Christian assumptions out of the text.
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David was also trusting in the Messiah to come:
Acts 2:25 – the text says:
<b<Δαυὶδ γὰρ λέγει εἰς αὐτόν προορώμην τὸν κύριον ἐνώπιόν μου διὰ παντός ὅτι ἐκ δεξιῶν μού ἐστιν ἵνα μὴ σαλευθῶ
For David says of Him,
‘I saw the Lord always in my presence;
For He is at my right hand, so that I will not be shaken.
26 ‘Therefore my heart was glad and my tongue exulted;
Moreover my flesh also will live in hope;
27 Because You will not abandon my soul to Hades,
Nor [y]allow Your [z]Holy One to [aa]undergo decay.
28 ‘You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of gladness with Your presence.’
Quote from Psalm 16:8-11
Acts 2:25-28
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Yawn, more of Kenny’s a priori assumptions. Boy, this never gets old (sarcasm intended).
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typical response from Faizy. فیضی
or فائزی
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Bwahaha, trying to keep up eh Kenny? 😉
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Muslims really dislike the fact that the first century Jews utilised the OT scripture in their recognistion of the messiah.
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Hahaha, 1st century Jews utilized the OT for a lot of things. They used it to believe that there was no afterlife (Sadducees). They used it to believe that the end was coming very soon (Qumran community and 1st century Jewish-Christians). So what’s your point? Obviously, the views of some anonymous 1st-century Jews doesn’t mean anything. Try again, Cerbie.
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It was Peter, Paul, Luke, and Abraham’s and David’s view.
Apostles and Prophets
The first century Christians were mostly Jews.
Your methods of adding insults, name calling, ad hominem, bombast, are violations of Surah 29:46.
You and “mr. heathcliff” are Shamoun type Muslims – your anger and methods discredit your arguments
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Yaaaaawn, little Kendra’s melodrama is putting me to sleep.
I don’t see little Kendra lecturing his brother in faith Paulus. Hmmm, methinks little Kendra doth protest too much.
Getting frustrated Kendra? The story of Jonah seems to be a thorn in your side. You simply cannot explain why the Ninevites were forgiven without a blood sacrifice. Don’t blame me for your failures. Blame yourself and your contradictory Bible.
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“Before Muhammad (pbuh), people had to follow their prophets in order to achieve salvation. That meant believing in God, and following His laws. Islam is the universal message which applies to all people since the time of Muhammad (pbuh). Thus, to achieve salvation, people must accept Islam.”
That’s not what Jesus said.
“The Rich Young Man
(Matthew 19:16-30; Luke 18:18-30)
17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? 18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. 19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
Neither did James:
2 v 8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
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Madman, you ran away from another post only to show up at another? Are you looking for more humiliation?
Jesus (pbuh) was sent only to the Israelites:
“He was no more than a servant: We granted Our favour to him, and We made him an example to the Children of Israel.” (Holy Quran, 43:59).
Even the Gospels agree:
“I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”” (Matt. 15:24).
By the way madman, since you ran away from our last discussion, can you explain why only Peter had the “vision” about all foods being clean, and yet Jesus said that all things must be corroborated by at least two witnesses? And what about the blood and menstruation issue? Don’t think I forgot! 😉
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What has witnesses to do with visions?
John 10 v 16: And other sheep I have which are not of this fold. Them also I must bring.
A question for you. If a muslim rapes a non-muslim must he be put to death?
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Um, because your savior said:
“…every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.”
Peter’s alleged “vision” violates your savior’s command, because it basically abrogated the dietary laws of the Tanakh. In order for it to be established that all food is now magically “clean”, the miraculous “vision” should have been witnessed by at least two people.
The punishment for rape depends upon if the rapist is married or not. If married, then he is executed. If not, then the punishment would be flogging.
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The other sheep are the Gentiles which Jesus said he will bring in to the fold. So his mission is not just to the Jews.
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
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LOL, that’s from the gospel of John. It directly contradicts the Synoptic gospels. You savior is reduced to a confused messenger who doesn’t know if he’s coming or going.
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“the Ninevites were forgiven without a blood sacrifice. ”
There is no indication that the Ninevites were forgiven in the sense of being fully justified.
10And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
They simply had respite from a particular judgement which God thought to visit upon them for certain evils which they committed.
You still have to up your game Faiz to get the better of me 🙂
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ROFTL, making a bigger fool of yourself already? You have only been back a day! 😉
Just another silly Christian assumption, with no scriptural evidence! Why do you idiots add your own opinions to the text? The text says that the punishment for their wicked ways was to perish, and the king hoped that God would relent and they would not perish. They did not perish! If they were simply given “respite”, then why isn’t there a warning that the punishment has simply been delayed?
Try again, madman. You got the better of yourself! 🙂
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Did Jesus ever say “I forgive…”?
Jesus has never been recorded as saying “I forgive …” or ” I have forgiven ….”, the same way God does in Numbers 14:20.
Rather in the NT, Jesus has been recorded as saying: “…your sins are forgiven,” in Mark 2:9, Luke 5:20, Mark 2:5, Matthew 9:5, 1 John 2:12,Matthew 9:2. NOT ONCE INSTANCE, does Jesus say I FORGIVE or I HAVE FORGIVEN.
What difference does it make? The latter implies that God has given the authority to forgive sins , like He did to the Jewish priests in Leviticus 4:20.
Therefore Jesus is claiming a priestly status and not a divine one.
https://islamicarchives.wordpress.com/2018/01/30/did-jesus-ever-say-i-forgive/
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That conclusion is a false dilemma.
Christians affirm both.
Try again.
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Show me one instance where Jesus says I FORGIVE, that’s all you have to do
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But we know that Christians make things up and insert their own assumptions into the text. That’s why there is such nonsense as the trinity, blood sacrifice and other Christian mumbo-jumbo. Try again, Cerbie.
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Haven’t you got some ayah to memorise or child to marry? Instead of spouting nonsense all the time?
Oh, I see you’ve come back from running away and are back to be humiliated 😜
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huh?
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LOL, when have I run away? I’ve been here the whole time. You took a beating as usual and ran off to spew your nonsense elsewhere! So Cerbie, why didn’t your Canaanite god require a blood sacrifice from the Ninevites? And how old were the little girls he allowed to be taken as slaves? 😉
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“Show me one instance where Jesus says I FORGIVE, that’s all you have to do”
He won’t do it brother. He will just dance around the question, make laughable comments and then run off.
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Hit and Run apologism, lol
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Hahahaha, that’s Cerbie for ya!
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Wahahaa paulus the lil pagan got wrecked.
AGAIN!
This is just becoming boring.
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“LOL, that’s from the gospel of John. It directly contradicts the Synoptic gospels. You savior is reduced to a confused messenger who doesn’t know if he’s coming or going.”
Not at all. If he is only sent to the Jews that does not mean he cannot be active for the Gentiles in another sphere of activity, at another time, through other means but still in a way that is conditional upon and rooted in his earthly ministry to the Jews.
“Peter’s alleged “vision” violates your savior’s command, because it basically abrogated the dietary laws of the Tanakh. In order for it to be established that all food is now magically “clean”, the miraculous “vision” should have been witnessed by at least two people.”
It was a sign that the old covenant has been superseded. How can a vision be witnessed if it occurs within the mind of the person involved?
“The punishment for rape depends upon if the rapist is married or not. If married, then he is executed. If not, then the punishment would be flogging.”
If the victim of the rape is made pregnant and has a child, what happens to her under islamic law?
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“Not at all. If he is only sent to the Jews that does not mean he cannot be active for the Gentiles in another sphere of activity, at another time, through other means but still in a way that is conditional upon and rooted in his earthly ministry to the Jews.”
Classic! A Christian yet again trying to have it both ways! But alas, you can’t have your cake and eat it too! Either your savior came to all mankind or only to a particular group. He clearly said he was sent to the lost sheep of Israel only.
“It was a sign that the old covenant has been superseded. How can a vision be witnessed if it occurs within the mind of the person involved?”
That’s exactly the point! It shouldn’t have been communicated via a “vision” which would have been “seen” by one person only! It should have been shown to multiple witnesses so that the “sign” would be established. As it stands, the so-called “vision” violates your savior’s rule.
“If the victim of the rape is made pregnant and has a child, what happens to her under islamic law?”
Um…nothing.
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Visions and signs are different things and God is not held to any law concerning them. You are just taking something out of it’s context.
“In order for it to be established that all food is now magically “clean”, the miraculous “vision” should have been witnessed by at least two people. ”
Visions and signs of God are not subject to any laws.
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Should we rely on visions and spiritual experience as a basis of faith? If a Hindu comes and tells me that he saw Ganesh in his dreams, and that confirms to him his belief in Hinduism, how would you respond as a Christian? How do we account for your spiritual experience and discount a Hindu’s?
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You are making up your own asinine excuses. Your savior said that every matter must be established on the basis of two or three witnesses. What if someone claimed to have had a “vision” but was lying? Or if the “vision” was just a hallucination? What if it was demonic vision? Your stuck between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand, your savior said to rely on witnesses to establish EVERY matter, and yet a major change in the dietary laws of the Tanakh was made on the basis of an alleged “vision” seen by only one person. To make it worse, the account of this “vision” was made by a third party (let’s assume it is “Luke”) who was not present when said “vision” occurred.
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