I debated Douglas at Speakers Corner. He’s really nice guy without any hatred in his heart towards Muslims. He also has a PhD in mathematics and has been going to the Park for many years.
Categories: Bible, Christianity, Debates, Islam, London, Speakers Corner
Blogging Theology 
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Those first few hypothetical questions to you were a bit weird…I lost interest after that
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Nobody let’s Paul talk, constant interruptions. How do you manage?
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practice
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The problem here is the simplicity of Jesus’ words to the rich young ruler. He tells him straight up as to how salvation is achieved but later on his message has been warped to encompass an uneccesarily complex explanations.
I think the reason for this is down to knowing that if Jesus’ words were taken seriously, it would require people to act on them and be culpable when they choose not to.
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The Aramaic word for ‘god’ is elah and is pronounced as alah/aloh in some dialects. In Hebrew the equivalent is ‘eloh’ and in Arabic ‘ilah’. In these languages ‘god’ has to be used in a definite state unlike in English. In English you simply say it like “God said” but not “the God said” because the word ‘God’ grammatically behaves like a proper name.
So you get ‘elah-a’ (alah-a/aloh-a), ‘ha-eloh’ and ‘al-ilah’. During the development of the Arabic language ‘al-ilah’ has been reduced to ‘al-lah’ and is used exclusively in that form while ‘ilah’ stayed like it has been.
This has to be kept in mind when mentioning the Aramaic ‘alah’ because there are many idiots claiming that ‘ilah’ and Allah are not the same and will use that as an argument then. Unfortunately there are also some Muslims claiming that ‘al-lah’ did not evolve from ‘al-ilah’.
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Paul Williams,
You have said many times that Jesus’ original teaching in the earliest gospels is basically the same as Islam.
Right?
Do you think Mark 10:21 is basically the same as Islamic teaching?
If not, why not?
If so, how? (give Qur’anic references, etc.)
Does the requirement Jesus gave on the rich young ruler (sell possessions and give to the poor) apply to everyone else in order to gain salvation?
21 Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, “One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
22 But at these words he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property.
Mark 10:21-22
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it proves that the gospel Jesus preached about how to be saved in Mark 10 is quite different from the gospel you follow.
You follow a man-made religion not the Revelation from God’s prophets and messengers.
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Ok, so you say; but is selling your possessions and giving to the poor the way to be saved in Islam?
Do you think Jesus really said that?
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you missed out the bit about being saved by obeying God’s law. Jesus said that too in Mark 10.
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The basic teaching of Islam is to worship Allah ONLY& ALONE, and to follow his messengers.
That’s exactly what Jesus was teaching in that passage. He didn’t refer to the trinity nor to the blood of god.
Jesus was a bad missionary form the christians’ perspective seemingly.
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Is selling possessions and giving to the poor an Islamic requirement for salvation?
If not, why not?
If so, why? (reference)
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No!
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Thank you for answering, Abdullah1423.
If Williams agrees with you; then it is wrong to keep saying that Jesus is teaching Islamic way of salvation here; unless you believe the historical Jesus really said that, and you can explain why He said that.
Did the man keep the law (as he claimed he did, from his youth – verse 20) ??
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it was easy to keep the Jewish law according to God in Deuteronomy 30. People were righteous under the Law, living blamelessly before God according to Lk 1.
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In Mark 10, Did the rich young ruler keep the law?
Was he truthful, lying, or self-deceived?
What part of the law did Jesus think he was lacking in obedience?
Did Jesus say it was easy to keep the law in Mark 10?
What did Jesus say in Mark 10:23-28?
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Ken go look at the passage for your answers.
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You are avoiding the questions. It reveals that you know that you will get into trouble if you go there. Interesting . . .
Did Jesus agree with the young man that he had kept the law from his youth and that it was easy?
Why did Jesus put that requirement on him?
(to sell possessions and give to the poor)
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Paul Williams:
Both Abdullah1423 and Archivesislam disagree with you and they both say that Islam does not require someone to sell their possessions and give to the poor.
So you are wrong; Jesus taught something different than Islam.
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Come on, Ken! What a childish way to make a point. As we answered you. Jesus was basically teaching Islam , which is to worship Allah ONLY and ALONE & to follow his messengers. And you know what we mean.
The question is why Jesus didn’t teach that man that he’s the second person in the triune God? Why didn’t he tell him as you preach to jews today?
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Ok, but you said that Jesus said that the man is still lacking in one thing. (selling possessions and giving to the poor)
Did Jesus of history really say that?
Does Islam teach that that is the way to get salvation?
Why or why not?
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Your (both of you, and any other Muslim who won’t answer) unwillingness or inability to answer that simple question is telling.
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I’m not sure, exactly what you want Ken, but let me try. Here are some verses from the Qur’an:
Surah Al-Baqara Translate in English
2:1 Alif Lam Mim.
2:2 This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).
2:3 Those who believe in the unseen and keep up prayer and spend out of what We have given them.
2:4 And who believe in that which has been revealed to you and that which was revealed before you and they are sure of the hereafter.
2:5 These are on a right course from their Lord and these it is that shall be successful.
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“. . . and spend out of what We have given them.”
Does that mean sell your possessions and give to the poor?
or does it mean to spend your money? (to provide for your family)
or just “pay the Zakat” ?
Why does it use the word “spend” instead of “give” or “give to charity” ?
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It is understood to mean give to the poor, but let me find some more verses on charity, though I still do not understand the purpose of the exercise:
Surah Baqarah, 2:215
يَسْأَلُونَكَ مَاذَا يُنفِقُونَ قُلْ مَا أَنفَقْتُم مِّنْ خَيْرٍ فَلِلْوَالِدَيْنِ وَالأَقْرَبِينَ وَالْيَتَامَى وَالْمَسَاكِينِ وَابْنِ السَّبِيلِ وَمَا تَفْعَلُواْ مِنْ خَيْرٍ فَإِنَّ اللّهَ بِهِ عَلِيمٌ
Yas-’aluunaka maa zaa yunfiquun Qul maaa ‘anfaqtum-min khayrin falil-waalidayni wal-’aqrabilina wal-yataamaa wal-masaakiini wab-nissabiil. Wa maa taf-’aluu min khayrin fa-in-nallaaha bihii ‘Aliim.
They ask thee, (O Muhammad), what they shall spend. Say: that which ye spend for good (must go) to parents and near kindred and orphans and the needy and the wayfarer. And whatsoever good ye do, lo! Allah is Aware of it.
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This نفقه – seems to refer to spending some of your money on taking care of your parents, children, needy, the poor, etc.
But it does not say “sell your possessions and give it to the poor” as Jesus did in Mark 10.
Did the historical Jesus say that or not?
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In Islam we have a different teaching :
Abu Hurayra reported that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, “The best sadaqa is that which leaves you free of want. The upper hand is better than the lower hand. Begin with those you look after. Your wife says, ‘Spend on me or divorce me.’ Your slave says, ‘Spend on me or sell me.’ Your child asks, ‘On whom can we rely?'” https://sunnah.com/adab/9/41
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What’s the point from this question? I really don’t get it. What are you looking for? The main point here is that Jesus’ teaching was a pure Islamic one in its essence not a Pauline one!
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My point is that Jesus is adding another requirement that is not in the Islamic requirement for salvation. (“sell possessions and give to the poor” – Jesus. The Qur’an just says, “use some of your money to take care of others (parents, children, needy, poor, etc.)
Therefore,
Paul Williams is wrong to say that Jesus taught the same thing as Islam in the early gospels, for salvation.
2. If you agree that the historical Jesus said that, then you have to ask why?
3. It is because the guy was self-deceived into thinking he had kept the law from his youth and that it is easy. Therefore Paul W. is wrong there also.
4. Jesus said receiving salvation is hard (v. 23-26) and impossible (v. 27)!. (verses 23-27)
5. So, the Christian guy in the video was correct, and Paul W. is wrong – Jesus was exposing the sins in the heart of the man – idolatry, covetousness, hoarding, selfishness, materialism. (violations of commandments 1, 2, and 9-10.)
6. Jesus was getting the man to think about who he was talking to. Jesus was saying, “If you think I am good; then that means I am God, because only God is good.”
7. Jesus was getting the man to think about himself; that he is a sinner and his boasting of keeping the law was wrong and self-deceived.
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No! and you know that you’re wrong. The Islamic teaching is to follow (the law) given by the prophet of your time. Let’s not make a big deal of that.
Regardless, that story is really a skewer in throats evangelicals’ throats who are obsessed with money.
Money and missionaries are almost synonymous words nowadays
The rest of verses can easily be understood in the light these teachings
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”
Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) reported:
Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said. “The (Hell) Fire is surrounded with all kinds of desires and passions, while Jannah is surrounded with adversities.” [Al-Bukhari and Muslim].
However, we know that these teachings of Jesus have no place in the religion of Paul since you are released from the law, and everything is (Lawful) for you.
The question is why Jesus didn’t teach that man that he’s the second person in the triune God? Why didn’t he tell him as you preach to jews today?
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“6. Jesus was getting the man to think about who he was talking to. Jesus was saying, “If you think I am good; then that means I am God, because only God is good.””
I find it sad that your god has to resort to riddles and secrecy to reveal his divine nature.
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Ken quick question, is Jesus the lamb to be offered as a sin offering for all of mankind?
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Yes; He said this later in Mark 10:45 and John the Baptist in John 1:29 testifies to the truth of this. (along with many other NT passages)
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“My point is that Jesus is adding another requirement that is not in the Islamic requirement for salvation. (“sell possessions and give to the poor” – Jesus. The Qur’an just says, “use some of your money to take care of others (parents, children, needy, poor, etc.)”
Perhaps you should read some Biblical commentaries on the issue, the command was SPECIFIC and not a GENERAL command to all.
Biblical Commentary on Mark 10:21
Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, “One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
—————
Biblical Illustrator :
….Giving to the poor…..The Dry Goods Chronicle says that the late Mr. Nathaniel Ripley Cobb, of Boston, was generous-hearted and conscientious in the highest degree. In November, 1821, he drew up the following document:-“By the grace of God, I will never be worth more than 50,000 dollars. By the grace of God, I will give one-fourth of the net profits of my business to charitable and religions uses. If I am even worth 20,000 dollars, I will give one-half my net profits, and if I am ever worth 30,000 dollars, I will give three-fourths, and the whole after my fiftieth thousand. So help me God, or give to a more faithful steward and set me aside. November, 1821.” He adhered to this covenant, it is stated, with the strictest fidelity.
The Fourfold Gospel :
Go, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor. The command to sell all is not a general one, but a special precept needed in this case:…..
Expository Notes with Practical Observations on the New Testament
Sell what thou hast, and give to the poor. This was not a common but a special precept, belonging particularly to this young man…….
Cambridge Greek Testament for Schools and Colleges:
….. Simon and Andrew were not told to part with all that they had, because their hearts were not tied to their possessions…
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You have to keep reading the whole Gospel and rest of the NT.
Mark 10:45
Mark 14:24
John 1:29
Hebrews chapters 8, 9, and 10
Galatians 3:13
Romans 3:25-26
Romans 5:6-11
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Thanks for the discourse Ken. I am actually wrapping up my Biblical debating these days. Bu
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But I’ll leave you with this video which first got me interested in learning about the Bible:
https://islamicarchives.wordpress.com/2016/09/05/garry-miller-on-islam-and-christianity/
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ken , can you tell all these evangelical jokers why ALLAH is the name for God.
the guy in the video said “not Allah…”
what planet are these guys living on, ken?
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