A choice? You must be pulling my leg? Here, accept Islam or become subdued and be a second class citizen. Oh, and don’t forget the heavy tax we give you simply because you refuse to worship a girl raping, stone kissing arab. But hey, there is no compulsion in religion😂😂😂
Epic fail for the deen. Shame shame shame”
LOL, there goes Cerbie on his pointless and idiotic rants!
Heavy tax? What heavy tax?
You said there was a contradiction between Surah 2 and Surah 9, but I showed that there cannot be any contradiction because the latter gives a choice to retain one’s religion. So how can there be “compulsion in religion” then? But naturally, being that you are Cerbie the dog of hell, you just cannot admit that you are wrong about something, and so you resort to idiotic comments like the one above. It’s okay, doggie. I know the humiliation is tough on you.
This is weird coming from a muslim. Contradictory Allah…
“There is no compulsion in religion”
Vs
“Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”
Let’s see if the Muslims allow a contextual understanding to clarify this contradiction
The second verse doesn’t say anything about compulsion in religion does it? It gives the unbelievers a choice, one of which is to retain their religion in exchange for paying a tax.
Try again, Cerbie. Your deflection failed miserably.
A choice? You must be pulling my leg? Here, accept Islam or become subdued and be a second class citizen. Oh, and don’t forget the heavy tax we give you simply because you refuse to worship a girl raping, stone kissing arab. But hey, there is no compulsion in religion😂😂😂
A 5% Jizyah is not “heavy tax” at all considering the heavy burdensome oppressive taxes that were demanded by the Christian and Persian imperial regimes in the 7th century.
Today, I am sure that there are many who would run to Islam if they could be guaranteed to be taxed no more than 5% as a non Muslim, or 2.5% of wealth as a Muslim, rather than paying the heavy over-bearing 33-40% governmental tax rates that we now suffer under many secularist regimes. It doesn’t take much to “compel” anyone to take advantage of those savings…this is one of the MANY reasons Islam spread like wildfire through the ancient world – Tax Liberation.
If understood and applied correctly Islam is truly a blessing, both to the human body, spirit…..and pocketbook!!!!
You’re one of the biggest proponents of peddling the myth of islamophobia on this blog but think the dhimmi is a just system? Where one is “subdued” simply for not being muslim? Three options- forced conversion, death, or dhimmitude. Yeah, sounds real *sweet* of muhammad.
Spare us the rhetoric on Islam. It spread like wildfire because of the sword. It gained in riches because of the sword. It’s not a sustainable economic system which is why the Muslim countries are today some of the worst in the world for education, poverty and economic output. In fact, I think 9 of the worst 10 nations for GDP are Muslim. Stop telling lies for the deen.
It’s a horrible ideology. Being a dhimmi is one of the worst conditions a human can face. Don’t be naive to think your western version of Islam is truth.
Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture – [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled. [Quran 9:29]
VS
Deuteronomy 20:10-15
New International Version (NIV)
10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.
While Muslims make up about 25% of the world population, they only contribute about 8% of the world economy.
When you consider that over 70% of this 8% comes from oil rich Muslims nations, it makes the reality of living in Muslim lands come to light. Islam fails people.
So spare us your whitewashed version of Islam enjoyed from your comfortable western lounge in an economic powerhouse thanks to the hydro Christian worldview.
Islam fails people. In spirituality. In economics. In ethics.
Paulus,
Why are you are so filled with hate and rancor towards Islam? What did any Muslim ever do to you personally?
In order for your mis-portrayals of Islam to seem acceptable you are forced to peddle the myths that Islamophobia doesn’t exist, that Islam was spread by sword, forced conversions etc. That is why you rabidly attack my description of Jizyah above, or any other narrative of Islam that counters your own slanders and smears. There is no room for an honest assessment of Islamic faith, history and culture in your own small hate filled world view, which is why you refuse to allow for even the slightest possibility that anything positive could arise from Islam. Anyone who takes an honest approach will quickly see that your assessment of Islam is biased, slanted, disingenuous, dishonest, hateful and bigoted (and you call yourself a loving Christian).
In regard to modern Muslim majority nations, it is not Islam that has failed them; it is a legacy of western imperialism, kleptocratic dictators, and corrupt governments that have sold out on the Islamic vision of social justice a long time ago.
A choice? You must be pulling my leg? Here, accept Islam or become subdued and be a second class citizen. Oh, and don’t forget the heavy tax we give you simply because you refuse to worship a girl raping, stone kissing arab. But hey, there is no compulsion in religion😂😂😂
Epic fail for the deen. Shame shame shame”
LOL, there goes Cerbie on his pointless and idiotic rants!
Heavy tax? What heavy tax?
You said there was a contradiction between Surah 2 and Surah 9, but I showed that there cannot be any contradiction because the latter gives a choice to retain one’s religion. So how can there be “compulsion in religion” then? But naturally, being that you are Cerbie the dog of hell, you just cannot admit that you are wrong about something, and so you resort to idiotic comments like the one above. It’s okay, doggie. I know the humiliation is tough on you.
Are you seriously trying to reason with Cerbie? This guy has a problem with everything Islamic, even something as simple as sitting on the ground! You can’t reason with him, so don’t waste your time. This man-worshiper is a rabid Islamophobe, so the best thing to do is to mock and humiliate him.
Quranandbibleblog
Thanks for the advice, I understand how you feel. I am well aware that Paulus is an unrepentant Islamophobe who tries to perpetuate the worst lies, stereotypes and misportrayals of Islam.
However, I do my best not to lower myself to his level. I prefer to respond as best I can without resorting to his own childish methods, or other tactics that our own Prophet (sws) would likely not approve. (I may fall short at times, but I try).
Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. (Qur’an 16:125).
Our apologetics should set a good example for other Muslims to follow, and we should do our best to show a positive image of Islam to others. That way, anyone who reads the vile malicious attacks from someone like Paulus, and then sees Muslims doing their best to respond and “argue with them in a way that is best” will hopefully see through the lies of people like Paulus and discover that Islam is the more honorable and true path. Inshallah.
Quranandbibleblog,
Also, it is not Paulus that I am trying to reason with. It is other more rational and intelligent people who might come later and read our comments that I am trying to reason with.
I agree brother, and ideally these discussions should be friendly. But I find that 90% of the people involved in these discussions are rabid losers like Cerbie and I think that we should not be afraid to confront trash like him. Using humor, jokes and sarcasm can be a fun way to deal with these people. Of course, I never use foul language or anything like that.
“ Of course, I never use foul language or anything like that“
“I find that 90% of the people involved in these discussions are rabid losers like Cerbie and I think that we should not be afraid to confront trash like him. “
Lol, well obviously you and I have different definitions for foul language. I don’t use the F-word or other similar language. Calling you a loser or trash is not foul language. Stop being such a whiner, Cerbie.
Paul Williams
I am interested in knowing what your story is about how you became a muslim.
Did you start out as a Christian or an atheist?
I would really like to know but apparently this story of yours is password protected.
Too bad.
Christiana,
Long revert story short – PW was a Catholic theologian, who was also a skeptic of Islam. After 911 he independently took it upon himself to learn more about Islam. He liked and agreed with what he learned about Islam and ultimately became Muslim. Now he is a much beloved Muslim who is well known for his theological studies, writings, arguments and debates in comparative religion.
The basic story with most reverts to Islam starts with a motivational reason or curiosity and a will to self educate about Islam with an open heart and an open mind.
Anyone who comes to Islam without prior bias, stereotypes, misconceptions etc. will end up with at the very least a more positive understanding of what Islam is all about, and at the very best actually agreeing with what they learn and subsequently accepting Islam as a valid personal spiritual path.
If you are not Muslim already, I invite you to come home to Islam!
Burhanuddin1,
Yes, during the course of his spiritual journey he must have simply come to the realization that all along, he had always been a Muslim at heart. Such a realization is a powerful conclusion which generally motivates and propels one into forward action as a Muslim striving to live a righteous life, submitting the personal will to the will of God Almighty Allah! Alhamdullah!
Coming to the conclusion and acknowledgment that one has always been a Muslim, (that is to say, one who has realized a congruence of beliefs in the absolute undivided Oneness of God, the Prophetic revelations, the angels, the last day, and the importance of obeying God’s commandments) is a powerful moment of self-discovery and a compelling revelation to the body, mind and soul, which necessitates transformative action on the part of the newly realized believer to go forward with a strong commitment to Islamic belief and practice and all that entails.
I encourage all interested to study the LAST TESTAMENT of God – Al-Qur’an.
Paul Williams was not a “Catholic Theologian” – where did you get that?
Paul – correct me if I got anything wrong.
He was a regular church going Evangelical for a few years, after having a “born again” experience in seeking to overcome same sex attraction, etc. – I think he said he was a skeptic before that – but he can give us the details.
Were you raised as a cultural Christian, an Anglican ?
In was in studying the New Testament and church history issues at University (with more liberal professors) that caused him to question the gospels, the canon issues, the Deity of Christ and the Trinity;
and then, that led him to investigate Islam more.
I was raised as an atheist. As an adult of 23 years I became a born-again Christian and became a member of my local Baptist church. For a time my views were pretty much the same as yours Ken.
The two verses in Hebrew use 2 different Hebrew words.
The one in Exodus 20:13 is used more in line with “do not murder” (do not do pre-mediated murder) This command does not prohibit self-defense nor killing in general or in war for a just cause.
The other one is in a just war context for Israel to fight against the pagan nations in the promised land and drive the pagans out of the promised land.
It was just / holy war in the Old Testament context and only for the promised land borders. Never was Israel permitted to wage holy war outside of the borders of the Promised land. It was only for Theocratic Israel before Jesus took the kingdom of God away from Israel. (Matthew chapter 22:1-46; Acts 1:6-8
Nobody starts out as a Muslim – Monotheism – that there is a creator God who is Sovereign and only 1 God was Jewish and Christian long before Islam came around.
“the image of God” within the human heart is a Judeo-Christian idea.
and
creation and conscience telling humans of the one true creator is a Jewish-Christian idea.
Ken why don’t you answer some of my other questions, scattered about this blog, I would appreciate it. I am also a little disappointed at your evasiveness regarding Kyrios, Yahweh and Proskenu. But , I guess its pick and choose with you…..
Sorry, from what I can tell; I did answer you. But maybe I missed some. There are lots of comments here – many from Georg Kaplan, Shaaad, Abdullah4231, Burhadin1, etc.
I sincerely thought I already answered all your questions.
CONCLUSION
No one contests that the NT usually reserves the title θεός for God the Father. Yet this usage, though dominant, is not exclusive.146 The textual proof of the designation θεός as applied to Jesus in the NT merely confirms what other grounds have already established. In fact, the title θεός only makes explicit what is implied in other Christological titles such as κύριος and υἱὸς θεοῦ. Harris adds:
Even if the early Church had never applied the title θεός to Jesus, his deity would still be apparent in his being the object of human and angelic worship and of saving faith; the exerciser of exclusively divine functions such as creatorial agency, the forgiveness of sins, and the final judgment; the addressee in petitionary prayer; the possessor of all divine attributes; the bearer of numerous titles used of Yahweh in the OT; and the co-author of divine blessing. Faith in the deity of Christ does not rest on the evidence or validity of a series of ‘proof-texts’ in which Jesus may receive the title θεός but on the general testimony of the NT corroborated at the bar of personal experience.147
The question now before us is not whether the NT explicitly ascribes the title θεός to Jesus, but how many times he is thus identified and by whom.148 Therefore, with at least one text that undoubtedly calls Jesus θεός in every respect (John 20.28), I will conclude by answering my initial question: When did this boldness to call Jesus θεός begin? It began in the first century. It was not a creation of Constantine in the fourth century. It was not a doctrinal innovation to combat Arianism in the third century. Nor was it a sub-apostolic distortion of the apostolic kerygma in the second century. Rather, the church’s confession of Christ as θεός began in the first century with the apostles themselves and/or their closest followers and therefore most likely from Jesus himself.
combined with the use of prokuneo in Revelation 19:10 and 22:8-9, it is clear that the way proskuneo is used in respect to Jesus by the NT (Matthew 2:1-12; 14:33, etc.) that it means “worship” as to a Deity; and not just “honor” due to a higher position, as in Rev. 3:9 and to kings in Chronicles.
Hewlett-Packard CEO praises Islamic Civilization
Taken from here:
’ll end by telling a story.
There was once a civilization that was the greatest in the world.
It was able to create a continental super-state that stretched from ocean to ocean, and from northern climes to tropics and deserts. Within its dominion lived hundreds of millions of people, of different creeds and ethnic origins.
One of its languages became the universal language of much of the world, the bridge between the peoples of a hundred lands. Its armies were made up of people of many nationalities, and its military protection allowed a degree of peace and prosperity that had never been known. The reach of this civilization’s commerce extended from Latin America to China, and everywhere in between.
And this civilization was driven more than anything, by invention. Its architects designed buildings that defied gravity. Its mathematicians created the algebra and algorithms that would enable the building of computers, and the creation of encryption. Its doctors examined the human body, and found new cures for disease. Its astronomers looked into the heavens, named the stars, and paved the way for space travel and exploration.
Its writers created thousands of stories. Stories of courage, romance and magic. Its poets wrote of love, when others before them were too steeped in fear to think of such things.
When other nations were afraid of ideas, this civilization thrived on them, and kept them alive. When censors threatened to wipe out knowledge from past civilizations, this civilization kept the knowledge alive, and passed it on to others.
While modern Western civilization shares many of these traits, the civilization I’m talking about was the Islamic world from the year 800 to 1600, which included the Ottoman Empire and the courts of Baghdad, Damascus and Cairo, and enlightened rulers like Suleiman the Magnificent.
Although we are often unaware of our indebtedness to this other civilization, its gifts are very much a part of our heritage. The technology industry would not exist without the contributions of Arab mathematicians. Sufi poet-philosophers like Rumi challenged our notions of self and truth. Leaders like Suleiman contributed to our notions of tolerance and civic leadership.
And perhaps we can learn a lesson from his example: It was leadership based on meritocracy, not inheritance. It was leadership that harnessed the full capabilities of a very diverse population–that included Christianity, Islamic, and Jewish traditions.
This kind of enlightened leadership — leadership that nurtured culture, sustainability, diversity and courage — led to 800 years of invention and prosperity.
In dark and serious times like this, we must affirm our commitment to building societies and institutions that aspire to this kind of greatness. More than ever, we must focus on the importance of leadership– bold acts of leadership and decidedly personal acts of leadership.
With that, I’d like to open up the conversation and see what we, collectively, believe about the role of leadership.
Yes. I hope Paulus will read the talk by Hewlett Packard CEO above on how Muslims and Islam contributed and pioneered the computer and information technology industry together with their mathematicians, astrologers, scientists etc. The Hewlett Packard CEO also talked about good governance, medicine, army that protects everyone etc.
Muslims continue to help the world today.
-One of the founder, designer and programmer of youtube is Jawed Karim who is the son of a Bangladeshi Muslim who is an engineer himself.
-Steve Jobs of Apple has an Arab father who is a Syrian. I don’t know whether the Father is a Muslim or not but Paulus does not respect all Muslims and Arabs.
-Dr. Mohammed El Masri Since 1974, he has been with the Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering at the University of Waterloo in Ontario where he is a founding Director of the VLSI (Microchip) Research Group.
VLSI stands for Very Large Scale Integrated Circuit and that is the baseline, foundation on which all modern computers, laptops, tablets, mobile phones, smart cards, sim cards, metal detectors etc. were built. He started this research in the early 1970s and pioneered a group of researchers on that project and we are now benefiting from it. He is a controversial imam in Canada who speaks his mind on the truth. He does not support radical Islam and has a project to counsel Muslim youth against radicalism. He also speaks his mind against any Western interventions in other countries.
Blogging Theology 
A general commandment verses it’s exception in a specific context. No contradiction there.
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are you exeption 2?
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“And cue the failing ignoramus. Right on time…
A choice? You must be pulling my leg? Here, accept Islam or become subdued and be a second class citizen. Oh, and don’t forget the heavy tax we give you simply because you refuse to worship a girl raping, stone kissing arab. But hey, there is no compulsion in religion😂😂😂
Epic fail for the deen. Shame shame shame”
LOL, there goes Cerbie on his pointless and idiotic rants!
Heavy tax? What heavy tax?
You said there was a contradiction between Surah 2 and Surah 9, but I showed that there cannot be any contradiction because the latter gives a choice to retain one’s religion. So how can there be “compulsion in religion” then? But naturally, being that you are Cerbie the dog of hell, you just cannot admit that you are wrong about something, and so you resort to idiotic comments like the one above. It’s okay, doggie. I know the humiliation is tough on you.
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This is weird coming from a muslim. Contradictory Allah…
“There is no compulsion in religion”
Vs
“Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”
Let’s see if the Muslims allow a contextual understanding to clarify this contradiction
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Hahahaha, again trying to deflect?
The second verse doesn’t say anything about compulsion in religion does it? It gives the unbelievers a choice, one of which is to retain their religion in exchange for paying a tax.
Try again, Cerbie. Your deflection failed miserably.
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And cue the failing ignoramus. Right on time…
A choice? You must be pulling my leg? Here, accept Islam or become subdued and be a second class citizen. Oh, and don’t forget the heavy tax we give you simply because you refuse to worship a girl raping, stone kissing arab. But hey, there is no compulsion in religion😂😂😂
Epic fail for the deen. Shame shame shame
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A 5% Jizyah is not “heavy tax” at all considering the heavy burdensome oppressive taxes that were demanded by the Christian and Persian imperial regimes in the 7th century.
Today, I am sure that there are many who would run to Islam if they could be guaranteed to be taxed no more than 5% as a non Muslim, or 2.5% of wealth as a Muslim, rather than paying the heavy over-bearing 33-40% governmental tax rates that we now suffer under many secularist regimes. It doesn’t take much to “compel” anyone to take advantage of those savings…this is one of the MANY reasons Islam spread like wildfire through the ancient world – Tax Liberation.
If understood and applied correctly Islam is truly a blessing, both to the human body, spirit…..and pocketbook!!!!
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You’re one of the biggest proponents of peddling the myth of islamophobia on this blog but think the dhimmi is a just system? Where one is “subdued” simply for not being muslim? Three options- forced conversion, death, or dhimmitude. Yeah, sounds real *sweet* of muhammad.
Spare us the rhetoric on Islam. It spread like wildfire because of the sword. It gained in riches because of the sword. It’s not a sustainable economic system which is why the Muslim countries are today some of the worst in the world for education, poverty and economic output. In fact, I think 9 of the worst 10 nations for GDP are Muslim. Stop telling lies for the deen.
It’s a horrible ideology. Being a dhimmi is one of the worst conditions a human can face. Don’t be naive to think your western version of Islam is truth.
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https://islamicarchives.wordpress.com/2017/06/04/jizya-in-the-bible/
Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture – [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled. [Quran 9:29]
VS
Deuteronomy 20:10-15
New International Version (NIV)
10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.
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While Muslims make up about 25% of the world population, they only contribute about 8% of the world economy.
When you consider that over 70% of this 8% comes from oil rich Muslims nations, it makes the reality of living in Muslim lands come to light. Islam fails people.
https://www.dawn.com/news/1035026
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So spare us your whitewashed version of Islam enjoyed from your comfortable western lounge in an economic powerhouse thanks to the hydro Christian worldview.
Islam fails people. In spirituality. In economics. In ethics.
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Paulus,
Why are you are so filled with hate and rancor towards Islam? What did any Muslim ever do to you personally?
In order for your mis-portrayals of Islam to seem acceptable you are forced to peddle the myths that Islamophobia doesn’t exist, that Islam was spread by sword, forced conversions etc. That is why you rabidly attack my description of Jizyah above, or any other narrative of Islam that counters your own slanders and smears. There is no room for an honest assessment of Islamic faith, history and culture in your own small hate filled world view, which is why you refuse to allow for even the slightest possibility that anything positive could arise from Islam. Anyone who takes an honest approach will quickly see that your assessment of Islam is biased, slanted, disingenuous, dishonest, hateful and bigoted (and you call yourself a loving Christian).
In regard to modern Muslim majority nations, it is not Islam that has failed them; it is a legacy of western imperialism, kleptocratic dictators, and corrupt governments that have sold out on the Islamic vision of social justice a long time ago.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Sorry, posted this in the wrong section.
“And cue the failing ignoramus. Right on time…
A choice? You must be pulling my leg? Here, accept Islam or become subdued and be a second class citizen. Oh, and don’t forget the heavy tax we give you simply because you refuse to worship a girl raping, stone kissing arab. But hey, there is no compulsion in religion😂😂😂
Epic fail for the deen. Shame shame shame”
LOL, there goes Cerbie on his pointless and idiotic rants!
Heavy tax? What heavy tax?
You said there was a contradiction between Surah 2 and Surah 9, but I showed that there cannot be any contradiction because the latter gives a choice to retain one’s religion. So how can there be “compulsion in religion” then? But naturally, being that you are Cerbie the dog of hell, you just cannot admit that you are wrong about something, and so you resort to idiotic comments like the one above. It’s okay, doggie. I know the humiliation is tough on you.
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Brother Ibn Issam,
Are you seriously trying to reason with Cerbie? This guy has a problem with everything Islamic, even something as simple as sitting on the ground! You can’t reason with him, so don’t waste your time. This man-worshiper is a rabid Islamophobe, so the best thing to do is to mock and humiliate him.
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Quranandbibleblog
Thanks for the advice, I understand how you feel. I am well aware that Paulus is an unrepentant Islamophobe who tries to perpetuate the worst lies, stereotypes and misportrayals of Islam.
However, I do my best not to lower myself to his level. I prefer to respond as best I can without resorting to his own childish methods, or other tactics that our own Prophet (sws) would likely not approve. (I may fall short at times, but I try).
Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. (Qur’an 16:125).
Our apologetics should set a good example for other Muslims to follow, and we should do our best to show a positive image of Islam to others. That way, anyone who reads the vile malicious attacks from someone like Paulus, and then sees Muslims doing their best to respond and “argue with them in a way that is best” will hopefully see through the lies of people like Paulus and discover that Islam is the more honorable and true path. Inshallah.
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Quranandbibleblog,
Also, it is not Paulus that I am trying to reason with. It is other more rational and intelligent people who might come later and read our comments that I am trying to reason with.
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I agree brother, and ideally these discussions should be friendly. But I find that 90% of the people involved in these discussions are rabid losers like Cerbie and I think that we should not be afraid to confront trash like him. Using humor, jokes and sarcasm can be a fun way to deal with these people. Of course, I never use foul language or anything like that.
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“ Of course, I never use foul language or anything like that“
“I find that 90% of the people involved in these discussions are rabid losers like Cerbie and I think that we should not be afraid to confront trash like him. “
Contradiction in the same paragraph
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Lol, well obviously you and I have different definitions for foul language. I don’t use the F-word or other similar language. Calling you a loser or trash is not foul language. Stop being such a whiner, Cerbie.
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The individual is not allowed to kill but the state, or God is.
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yes the OT has god ordering genocide.
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Paul Williams
I am interested in knowing what your story is about how you became a muslim.
Did you start out as a Christian or an atheist?
I would really like to know but apparently this story of yours is password protected.
Too bad.
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He started out as Muslim like everyone else
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Christiana,
Long revert story short – PW was a Catholic theologian, who was also a skeptic of Islam. After 911 he independently took it upon himself to learn more about Islam. He liked and agreed with what he learned about Islam and ultimately became Muslim. Now he is a much beloved Muslim who is well known for his theological studies, writings, arguments and debates in comparative religion.
The basic story with most reverts to Islam starts with a motivational reason or curiosity and a will to self educate about Islam with an open heart and an open mind.
Anyone who comes to Islam without prior bias, stereotypes, misconceptions etc. will end up with at the very least a more positive understanding of what Islam is all about, and at the very best actually agreeing with what they learn and subsequently accepting Islam as a valid personal spiritual path.
If you are not Muslim already, I invite you to come home to Islam!
May Allah guide you!
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Burhanuddin1,
Yes, during the course of his spiritual journey he must have simply come to the realization that all along, he had always been a Muslim at heart. Such a realization is a powerful conclusion which generally motivates and propels one into forward action as a Muslim striving to live a righteous life, submitting the personal will to the will of God Almighty Allah! Alhamdullah!
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Coming to the conclusion and acknowledgment that one has always been a Muslim, (that is to say, one who has realized a congruence of beliefs in the absolute undivided Oneness of God, the Prophetic revelations, the angels, the last day, and the importance of obeying God’s commandments) is a powerful moment of self-discovery and a compelling revelation to the body, mind and soul, which necessitates transformative action on the part of the newly realized believer to go forward with a strong commitment to Islamic belief and practice and all that entails.
I encourage all interested to study the LAST TESTAMENT of God – Al-Qur’an.
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Paul Williams was not a “Catholic Theologian” – where did you get that?
Paul – correct me if I got anything wrong.
He was a regular church going Evangelical for a few years, after having a “born again” experience in seeking to overcome same sex attraction, etc. – I think he said he was a skeptic before that – but he can give us the details.
Were you raised as a cultural Christian, an Anglican ?
In was in studying the New Testament and church history issues at University (with more liberal professors) that caused him to question the gospels, the canon issues, the Deity of Christ and the Trinity;
and then, that led him to investigate Islam more.
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Williams,
Did I get the info on you basically right?
How long were in an Evangelical Baptist church?
Were you raised Anglican or what?
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I was raised as an atheist. As an adult of 23 years I became a born-again Christian and became a member of my local Baptist church. For a time my views were pretty much the same as yours Ken.
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The two verses in Hebrew use 2 different Hebrew words.
The one in Exodus 20:13 is used more in line with “do not murder” (do not do pre-mediated murder) This command does not prohibit self-defense nor killing in general or in war for a just cause.
The other one is in a just war context for Israel to fight against the pagan nations in the promised land and drive the pagans out of the promised land.
So, there is no contradiction.
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colonization, ethnic cleansing and extermination are no “just war”.
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It was just / holy war in the Old Testament context and only for the promised land borders. Never was Israel permitted to wage holy war outside of the borders of the Promised land. It was only for Theocratic Israel before Jesus took the kingdom of God away from Israel. (Matthew chapter 22:1-46; Acts 1:6-8
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too bad if fundamentalism leaves you an ethical wreck
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Since Jesus took the kingdom of God away from Israel, and there is no more Theocratic Israel; your comment is non-sense.
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You do not make sense to anyone who does not share your extremist fundamentalist biblicist worldview
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Burhaddin1 –
Nobody starts out as a Muslim – Monotheism – that there is a creator God who is Sovereign and only 1 God was Jewish and Christian long before Islam came around.
“the image of God” within the human heart is a Judeo-Christian idea.
and
creation and conscience telling humans of the one true creator is a Jewish-Christian idea.
Genesis 1-3
Psalm 19
Romans 1:19-21
Romans 2:13-15
Acts 17
long before Islam.
and nobody has other ideas of Islam about Muhammad, etc. in their hearts.
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Ken why don’t you answer some of my other questions, scattered about this blog, I would appreciate it. I am also a little disappointed at your evasiveness regarding Kyrios, Yahweh and Proskenu. But , I guess its pick and choose with you…..
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Sorry, from what I can tell; I did answer you. But maybe I missed some. There are lots of comments here – many from Georg Kaplan, Shaaad, Abdullah4231, Burhadin1, etc.
I sincerely thought I already answered all your questions.
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No worries, I had a few , but I will bring them up again later on
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CONCLUSION
No one contests that the NT usually reserves the title θεός for God the Father. Yet this usage, though dominant, is not exclusive.146 The textual proof of the designation θεός as applied to Jesus in the NT merely confirms what other grounds have already established. In fact, the title θεός only makes explicit what is implied in other Christological titles such as κύριος and υἱὸς θεοῦ. Harris adds:
Even if the early Church had never applied the title θεός to Jesus, his deity would still be apparent in his being the object of human and angelic worship and of saving faith; the exerciser of exclusively divine functions such as creatorial agency, the forgiveness of sins, and the final judgment; the addressee in petitionary prayer; the possessor of all divine attributes; the bearer of numerous titles used of Yahweh in the OT; and the co-author of divine blessing. Faith in the deity of Christ does not rest on the evidence or validity of a series of ‘proof-texts’ in which Jesus may receive the title θεός but on the general testimony of the NT corroborated at the bar of personal experience.147
The question now before us is not whether the NT explicitly ascribes the title θεός to Jesus, but how many times he is thus identified and by whom.148 Therefore, with at least one text that undoubtedly calls Jesus θεός in every respect (John 20.28), I will conclude by answering my initial question: When did this boldness to call Jesus θεός begin? It began in the first century. It was not a creation of Constantine in the fourth century. It was not a doctrinal innovation to combat Arianism in the third century. Nor was it a sub-apostolic distortion of the apostolic kerygma in the second century. Rather, the church’s confession of Christ as θεός began in the first century with the apostles themselves and/or their closest followers and therefore most likely from Jesus himself.
Brian J. Wright
Jesus as θεος
https://bible.org/article/jesus-%CE%B8%CE%B5%E1%BD%B9%CF%82-scriptural-fact-or-scribal-fantasy
Hebrews 1:6
Let all the angels of God worship Him (proskuneo)
1:6 ὅταν δὲ πάλιν εἰσαγάγῃ τὸν πρωτότοκον εἰς τὴν οἰκουμένην λέγει καὶ προσκυνησάτωσαν αὐτῷ πάντες ἄγγελοι θεοῦ
combined with the use of prokuneo in Revelation 19:10 and 22:8-9, it is clear that the way proskuneo is used in respect to Jesus by the NT (Matthew 2:1-12; 14:33, etc.) that it means “worship” as to a Deity; and not just “honor” due to a higher position, as in Rev. 3:9 and to kings in Chronicles.
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https://islamicarchives.wordpress.com/2016/09/04/hewlett-packard-ceo-praises-islamic-civilization/
Hewlett-Packard CEO praises Islamic Civilization
Taken from here:
’ll end by telling a story.
There was once a civilization that was the greatest in the world.
It was able to create a continental super-state that stretched from ocean to ocean, and from northern climes to tropics and deserts. Within its dominion lived hundreds of millions of people, of different creeds and ethnic origins.
One of its languages became the universal language of much of the world, the bridge between the peoples of a hundred lands. Its armies were made up of people of many nationalities, and its military protection allowed a degree of peace and prosperity that had never been known. The reach of this civilization’s commerce extended from Latin America to China, and everywhere in between.
And this civilization was driven more than anything, by invention. Its architects designed buildings that defied gravity. Its mathematicians created the algebra and algorithms that would enable the building of computers, and the creation of encryption. Its doctors examined the human body, and found new cures for disease. Its astronomers looked into the heavens, named the stars, and paved the way for space travel and exploration.
Its writers created thousands of stories. Stories of courage, romance and magic. Its poets wrote of love, when others before them were too steeped in fear to think of such things.
When other nations were afraid of ideas, this civilization thrived on them, and kept them alive. When censors threatened to wipe out knowledge from past civilizations, this civilization kept the knowledge alive, and passed it on to others.
While modern Western civilization shares many of these traits, the civilization I’m talking about was the Islamic world from the year 800 to 1600, which included the Ottoman Empire and the courts of Baghdad, Damascus and Cairo, and enlightened rulers like Suleiman the Magnificent.
Although we are often unaware of our indebtedness to this other civilization, its gifts are very much a part of our heritage. The technology industry would not exist without the contributions of Arab mathematicians. Sufi poet-philosophers like Rumi challenged our notions of self and truth. Leaders like Suleiman contributed to our notions of tolerance and civic leadership.
And perhaps we can learn a lesson from his example: It was leadership based on meritocracy, not inheritance. It was leadership that harnessed the full capabilities of a very diverse population–that included Christianity, Islamic, and Jewish traditions.
This kind of enlightened leadership — leadership that nurtured culture, sustainability, diversity and courage — led to 800 years of invention and prosperity.
In dark and serious times like this, we must affirm our commitment to building societies and institutions that aspire to this kind of greatness. More than ever, we must focus on the importance of leadership– bold acts of leadership and decidedly personal acts of leadership.
With that, I’d like to open up the conversation and see what we, collectively, believe about the role of leadership.
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Well lookie here, it turns out Cerbie was full of crap as usual! Islam does offer and has given much to the world! Alhamdulillah!
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Yes. I hope Paulus will read the talk by Hewlett Packard CEO above on how Muslims and Islam contributed and pioneered the computer and information technology industry together with their mathematicians, astrologers, scientists etc. The Hewlett Packard CEO also talked about good governance, medicine, army that protects everyone etc.
Muslims continue to help the world today.
-One of the founder, designer and programmer of youtube is Jawed Karim who is the son of a Bangladeshi Muslim who is an engineer himself.
-Steve Jobs of Apple has an Arab father who is a Syrian. I don’t know whether the Father is a Muslim or not but Paulus does not respect all Muslims and Arabs.
-Dr. Mohammed El Masri Since 1974, he has been with the Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering at the University of Waterloo in Ontario where he is a founding Director of the VLSI (Microchip) Research Group.
cont.
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VLSI stands for Very Large Scale Integrated Circuit and that is the baseline, foundation on which all modern computers, laptops, tablets, mobile phones, smart cards, sim cards, metal detectors etc. were built. He started this research in the early 1970s and pioneered a group of researchers on that project and we are now benefiting from it. He is a controversial imam in Canada who speaks his mind on the truth. He does not support radical Islam and has a project to counsel Muslim youth against radicalism. He also speaks his mind against any Western interventions in other countries.
Thanks.
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Folks,
Ijaz has blocked me from posting on Blogging Theology and has taken down my article
‘Muslim violence at Speakers’ Corner – a moment to face some ugly truths.. ‘
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