Every aspect of this particular science is amazing, whether it’s the ilm al-Rijal, the cross-examining holistic approach, questioning, testing the reliability and authenticity just to be certain and so much more that is beyond ordinary folks like me (tbh I still had to check terminology and understand it in laymens). Due to its importance these blessed scholars approached it like detectives.
Bismillah. Salam brother Lateef and others,
Oh brother I say Astaghfirullah for you to ask me it feels like something, I feel I am definetely not qualified, and please correct me if I’m wrong. My wrongdoing is definite, I hope you and others pray for me. Regarding what I think of this. I will put my flawed opinion and by no means am I a valid source and may God forgive and correct our paths for us all. Amen…
Just my little opinion, I’m writing out of interest not expertise. Regarding that article I have mixed feelings to be honest. Sometimes I found agreement, elsewhere I felt otherwise on this interesting article. There are times we have to do break down each and every point which will be time-consuming as there may be both valid and invalid points on each paragraph. So I guess it may be better to look at it broadly.
But even I, as a complete nobody compared to students of knowledge, let alone scholars and academics of knowledge out there, will have to use our common sense at times. And we cannot or should not just intelectualize by ignoring the emotional and psychological significance of certain issues. To me as humans, there is nothing wrong with being eclectic and enjoying and learning from a variety of sources. Even if someone wrote in complete support of the jurisprudence and same school as what I would be more inclined towards, I would still not feel completely right about it. There is a saying “I am not here to compete with you, I hope we can all make it”. I’m sure we can find similar sayings within our deen. This is as oppossed to a kind of “my way or the highway” approach. Also as a complete unqualified person like me can even identify that IF we say hypothetically had to decide that one of them had to be right and the other had to wrong, we still can’t be certain, in all fairness and accuracy, there are times Mr X specialises in this, and elsewhere Mr Y specialises in another area.
Ironically enough I am going to paraphrase or briefly try to summarise from a hadith, which I’m sure you may know already and can correct me on it, where our beloved Prophet (saw) asked some companions to go to a certain place and when they get there to pray the Asr salah. As the group set off in the journey, however Asr time came before reaching destination. The group split in their decision, one side said to pray the Asr at the appointed time, the other said to pray Asr when reaching the destination, all in all the 2 groups did what they want. Later they asked our prophet (saw) which party was on the correct side. And SubhanAllah our Beloved (s.a.w) said they’re both correct.
We all have to research and do our own bit and decide and double-check for ourselves in the path of knowledge and the jpurney rather than just jumping on any platform, we could go on.
Thanks for your time and for posting this, this is my flawed and faulty opinion and I hope people look for much more reliable sources than my words for clarification and correction. And most of all,
Allahualam.
Please note that Atabek Shukurov is not considered a Muslim scholar. He has rejected fundamentals of Islam and is a clear apostate.
Regarding the topic of Hadith, all those points raised by Atabek do not matter for anything that is significant. Hadith science is not one of the vital sciences of Islam and therefore whatever conclusion one gets in Hadith science it will not change anything that is relevant for religion.
The relevant sciences of Islam are theology and Fiqh. Islamic theology is based upon the Qur’an and Kalam. The Islamic law is based upon the Qur’an and codified canonised legal tradition. The rulings of Fiqh are already codified within the four schools. The rulings contain the Sunnah directly and are not deduced from Hadiths from Hadith collections.
This is literally just a garbage not a research.
That man was making stuff from his own head, and I have no idea who he is.
Whatever, that man should give up all the jurisprudence of Imam Abu Hanfiah for his sayings have not gotten 1/1000 of the service as books of Hadith have. Would he dare? No!
The matter of how books of hadith got transmitted is a phenomenon that each muslim should be proud of because there’s nothing similar to that throughout of human history.
If that man is a sufi, I’m telling you his problem has nothing to do with hadiths because he has an “academic” approach. His problem, rather, is a theological one. Hadiths condemn the heretic sufi practice clearly. Let’s just be honest with this matter, and there’s no need to all this fake research.
Yes he supports him. He wrote much about how anyone who is against Bashar is a khariji and used the Hadith about rebellion. He even insulted Muhammad Yaqoubi for being against him.
“Hadith science is not one of the vital sciences of Islam and therefore whatever conclusion one gets in Hadith science it will not change anything that is relevant for religion.”
“s no longer the original School of Abu Hanifah as he indicates.”
Then he should stop lying, and he should stop saying this’s the school of Imam Abu Hanifa.
Or why Ahnaf reject hadiths.
He should have said why ((( I ))) reject hadiths.
Also, he said the Imam Bukhari is just narrator! Let him read the introduction of Imam Badr al-Din al-Ayni Al Hanafi about Imam Al Bukhari.
This is a good article to expose how contradictory to the Word of God ALMIGHTY can be to sources other than the Qur’an in which there are attributions towards the Prophet by men, narrated by men, and compiled by men over the course of long decades and centuries in the midst of civil wars.
May Allah soften our hearts to evidence whether we like or not….may Allah soften our hearts to the truth….may Allah soften our hearts to those who open up fresher perspectives.
May we be open to the Words of God over the claims of men from narrations over decades and centuries.
May Allah soften our hearts to those who bring knowledge from the Qur’an, the Words of God.
And may Allah bless all who want to keep the Qur’an to its primary position.
You ignored the content of my first comment. There I explained that our religion does not rely on ahadith but on what is written in the Fiqh books. The Hanafi madhhab is clear. We know all the rulings of it from the earliest scholars. You reject these rulings using criticism of hadith books.
I can give you examples in which this dajjjal called Adnan Ibrahim accepts weak hadiths, yet he rejects Sahih Hadith. His standard is his own mind only.
BTW, he rejects all hadiths of the Al masih Aldajjal and all hadiths that Isa عليه السلام will come at the end of time.
On the other hand, Adnan Ibrahim ‘mr. rational man’ has lectures about his grandmother and how she can tell the unseen from reading a cup of coffee
We need to be mature even to accept whatever evidence whether we like everything that someone said or didn’t say.
ALMIGHTY God effectively tells us to follow the evidence wherever it leads us in many, many verses.
ALMIGHTY God tells us to bring the evidence if we are truthful.
So if we are engaging in an issue and evidence is brought from a different perspective, we need to examine any evidence anyone brings whether we like the person or not.
Attacking people on side issues is unbecoming of being concerned with the truth and goodness.
But it is very becoming when one’s heart is sealed upon what is comfortable.
If he rejects hadiths on dajjal or so on, then he gives reasons why he does that. He may be correct or not. And even if he is incorrect on that, it does not mean he is incorrect on other independent issues.
We can follow the evidence for a particular issue wherever it leads or we can choose not to follow evidence.
First of all, I really don’t care what you think about those liars.
Second, I know Adnan Ibrahim very well. He is a liar. He insulted the companions of the prophet pbuh such as Abu Hurirah & Ibn Umar. I really don’t care about that dajjal. He rejects hadiths about Al Masih Al Dajjal which have been narrated by more than 14 companions of the prophet, so it’s obvious that his problem with hadiths is definitely a theological one, and it has nothing to do whether hadiths are authentic or not. Also, he had an interview in which he commended Bashar Al Assad’s regime.
Regrading the first liar you posted his fake research. Again, he was making stuff from his own head, and he lied about the school of Imam Abu Hanifah. He even tried to degrade Imam Al Bukhahri by saying he’s just a narrator. Those people have theological problems. But don’t ever try to tell me that they have problem because of the transmission of hadiths. The evidence that he tried to make a point against books of hadiths as whole. Oh dear! He was like a goat which tries to push a mountain from its place.
You said
“But we can choose to follow God or follow our desires.”
I follow Allah عزوجل who has commanded us to follow the prophet pbuh not to follow the heretic sufis.
The prophet pbuh was a man who speaks, commands, and engages with others.
If you think his life and his sayings are not important foe muslims, that would be another issue. If you think they are very important, why would you think that Allah عزوجل didn’t want for the prophet’s teachings to reach us? I just imagine if the science of hadith were an European invention, how would they proud of it? I imagine they’d be screaming in each chance and event proudly for this kind of literature.
In contrast, the one who follows his desires is the one who tries to drop the teachings of the prophet pbuh because they don’t fit his desires.
“Say, “If you love God, then (((follow me))), and God will love you, and will forgive you your sins.” God is Forgiving and Merciful.
Say, “Obey God and (((the Messenger)))” But if they turn away—God does not love the faithless” QT
Don’t waste our time with those men.
May Allah expose them.
They are not liars but truthful, trustworthy, beautiful people. Alhamdulillah for such people.
There you go again with attempts on impugning them without dealing with the issues.
If you think they are very important, why would you think that Allah عزوجل didn’t want for the prophet’s teachings to reach us?
That is not what they are saying. They are not saying that at all. What they are saying is would God have wanted efforts of men to overwrite God ALMIGHTY’s words.
As Allah says in His book, Kayfa Tahkumoon?
I just imagine if the science of hadith were an European invention, how would they proud of it?
This “science” would not be accepted in any trial of court.
It is evidence no doubt but it is not definite many of the time. If one would try to use a chain of narrators, most of whom are dead in the court of law, then any European, Asian, African court would throw it out at heresay.
Allah tells us that it is not reliable enough (2:282).
Indeed it would not be reliable enough for 2:282 if there was one step in the isnad since there are not two witnesses and it was not written down immediately.
Forget about 5 or 6 steps.
Use as evidence…..yes.
To overwrite the Book of God and to not let God speak for Himself but only through this lens?
Astaghfirullah.
“Say, “If you love God, then (((follow me))), and God will love you, and will forgive you your sins.” God is Forgiving and Merciful.
Say, “Obey God and (((the Messenger)))” But if they turn away—God does not love the faithless” QT
It is only a presumption that this means follow Bukhari, and Muslim, and so on.
It could also have meant that those who claim to follow God, must seek out the ***message*** that comes from God.
Some of Quraish would say that yeah….we do follow God.
But the Messenger could have been trying to tell them that they need to really out seek out the message of God if they REALLY follow Him.
Thus, it is ***only a presumption*** that those verses refer to compilations that have been written much later.
It is striking that every time God says to follow him, God uses the word ***messenger*** and not ****Muhammad**** , not even ****the Prophet****
But follow the ****messenger****
What ****message**** did God send him with?
The Qur’an.
This is not to suggest neglect of those compilations.
They are very important sources of knowledge and we must use them as sources of knowledge but they are sometimes not definitive.
Even the court of Zimbabwe would not accept “this science” as definitive let alone God ALMIGHTY (2:282).
There are just too many biases that can and have been shown to distort the truth from such a “science.
-You reject that the apostate has to be killed.
-You believe that smoking does not break the fast.
-You believe that loans are permissible.
-You believe that Bashar al-Assad is a Muslim.
So what do you have to do with Islam and the Hanafi madhhab?
Rider, you need to understand that if person A says person B is honest and good and knowledgable, it does not mean that person A agrees to all of person B’s views.
I am speaking about the view of hadith of Shaykh Atabek and Dr. Adnan Ibrahim.
So, I believe that smoking does break fasting….my view of Assad is that he is a terrible war criminal and I supplicated so much for him to be overthrown that I cannot remember how many times I supplicated for that…I even made extra hajjat salat towards that.
Allah’s own words are evidence that apostates are not to be killed (2:256).
I did not read Shaykh Atabek’s articles on loans.
Again, I am talking about his overall sensible, intellectual, scholarly view of hadith.
I appreciate that you do not believe like Atabek in these issues.
The Hanafi madhhab is codified in very old books. One of the oldest of them is Al-Mabsut from Sarakhsi. The opinions of Abu Hanifa, Shaybani and Abu Yusuf are transmitted very well. So the rulings of the Hanafi madhhab were known before the books of Hadith were compiled.
The killing of the apostate is an agreed upon issue. It is based on practical tradition transmitted through the Sahaba to the jurists. It is not based on singular ahadith. The Qur’an also gives no other option but death to the apostate. The verse about compulsion is misunderstood.
The Qur’an does not explicitly command the apostate to be killed. But from the Qur’an it is clear that there are only three kind of people:
1- Muslims
2- Dhimmis
3- those who are none of the two
Now unless one believes that apostates can become Dhimmis there will be no other option than death for them. But of course the specifics of the ruling need to be established through the Sunnah.
A reminder for some people for what he said
“From an early date Muslim scholars recognized the danger of false testimony and hence false doctrine, and developed an elaborate science for criticizing tradition. “Traditional science”, as it was called, differed in many respects from modern historical source criticism, and modern scholarship has always disagreed with evaluations of traditional scientists about the authenticity and accuracy of ancient narratives. But their careful scrutiny of the chains of transmission and their meticulous collection and preservation of variants in the transmitted narratives give to medieval Arabic historiography a professionalism and sophistication without precedent in antiquity and without parallel in the contemporary medieval West. By comparison, the historiography of Latin Christendom seems poor and meagre, and even the more advanced and complex historiography of Greek Christendom still falls short of the historical literature of Islam in volume, variety and analytical depth”
(Bernard Lewis, Islam In History, 1993, Open Court Publishing, pp.104-105)
Blogging Theology 
Every aspect of this particular science is amazing, whether it’s the ilm al-Rijal, the cross-examining holistic approach, questioning, testing the reliability and authenticity just to be certain and so much more that is beyond ordinary folks like me (tbh I still had to check terminology and understand it in laymens). Due to its importance these blessed scholars approached it like detectives.
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Brother A Ali,
What is your take of this different assessment from another scholar on this issue?
https://shaykhatabekshukurov.com/2017/12/30/why-the-contemporary-ahl-sunnah-reject-hadeeth/
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Bismillah. Salam brother Lateef and others,
Oh brother I say Astaghfirullah for you to ask me it feels like something, I feel I am definetely not qualified, and please correct me if I’m wrong. My wrongdoing is definite, I hope you and others pray for me. Regarding what I think of this. I will put my flawed opinion and by no means am I a valid source and may God forgive and correct our paths for us all. Amen…
Just my little opinion, I’m writing out of interest not expertise. Regarding that article I have mixed feelings to be honest. Sometimes I found agreement, elsewhere I felt otherwise on this interesting article. There are times we have to do break down each and every point which will be time-consuming as there may be both valid and invalid points on each paragraph. So I guess it may be better to look at it broadly.
But even I, as a complete nobody compared to students of knowledge, let alone scholars and academics of knowledge out there, will have to use our common sense at times. And we cannot or should not just intelectualize by ignoring the emotional and psychological significance of certain issues. To me as humans, there is nothing wrong with being eclectic and enjoying and learning from a variety of sources. Even if someone wrote in complete support of the jurisprudence and same school as what I would be more inclined towards, I would still not feel completely right about it. There is a saying “I am not here to compete with you, I hope we can all make it”. I’m sure we can find similar sayings within our deen. This is as oppossed to a kind of “my way or the highway” approach. Also as a complete unqualified person like me can even identify that IF we say hypothetically had to decide that one of them had to be right and the other had to wrong, we still can’t be certain, in all fairness and accuracy, there are times Mr X specialises in this, and elsewhere Mr Y specialises in another area.
Ironically enough I am going to paraphrase or briefly try to summarise from a hadith, which I’m sure you may know already and can correct me on it, where our beloved Prophet (saw) asked some companions to go to a certain place and when they get there to pray the Asr salah. As the group set off in the journey, however Asr time came before reaching destination. The group split in their decision, one side said to pray the Asr at the appointed time, the other said to pray Asr when reaching the destination, all in all the 2 groups did what they want. Later they asked our prophet (saw) which party was on the correct side. And SubhanAllah our Beloved (s.a.w) said they’re both correct.
We all have to research and do our own bit and decide and double-check for ourselves in the path of knowledge and the jpurney rather than just jumping on any platform, we could go on.
Thanks for your time and for posting this, this is my flawed and faulty opinion and I hope people look for much more reliable sources than my words for clarification and correction. And most of all,
Allahualam.
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Please note that Atabek Shukurov is not considered a Muslim scholar. He has rejected fundamentals of Islam and is a clear apostate.
Regarding the topic of Hadith, all those points raised by Atabek do not matter for anything that is significant. Hadith science is not one of the vital sciences of Islam and therefore whatever conclusion one gets in Hadith science it will not change anything that is relevant for religion.
The relevant sciences of Islam are theology and Fiqh. Islamic theology is based upon the Qur’an and Kalam. The Islamic law is based upon the Qur’an and codified canonised legal tradition. The rulings of Fiqh are already codified within the four schools. The rulings contain the Sunnah directly and are not deduced from Hadiths from Hadith collections.
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This is literally just a garbage not a research.
That man was making stuff from his own head, and I have no idea who he is.
Whatever, that man should give up all the jurisprudence of Imam Abu Hanfiah for his sayings have not gotten 1/1000 of the service as books of Hadith have. Would he dare? No!
The matter of how books of hadith got transmitted is a phenomenon that each muslim should be proud of because there’s nothing similar to that throughout of human history.
If that man is a sufi, I’m telling you his problem has nothing to do with hadiths because he has an “academic” approach. His problem, rather, is a theological one. Hadiths condemn the heretic sufi practice clearly. Let’s just be honest with this matter, and there’s no need to all this fake research.
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He is not really a Sufi but more a Shia-loving Assadist.
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Nusiri?
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He is from Uzbekistan but has lived in Syria. He considers nusayris to be Muslims.
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Is he with Bashar Al Assad?
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Yes he supports him. He wrote much about how anyone who is against Bashar is a khariji and used the Hadith about rebellion. He even insulted Muhammad Yaqoubi for being against him.
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“and used the (((Hadith))) about rebellion”
What an irony.
May Allah protect muslims from his lies.
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“Hadith science is not one of the vital sciences of Islam and therefore whatever conclusion one gets in Hadith science it will not change anything that is relevant for religion.”
Not true!
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Please note that you have not provided anything substantial other than an insult.
Do not waste time of of others to read your posts.
Time is an important commodity.
Once it is gone, then this life is gone by definition.
May Allah guide you so you can receive blessings.
Peace.
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Where did brother A Ali insult anyone?
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You are the one who insulted and the one who insults but you make a fool of no one but yourself.
Your comments are as usual a disgrace and without any substance whatsoever.
May Allah guide you so you can benefit from His immense blessings.
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A good resource for those who are open.
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By “open” you mean how to satisfy the western culture, and how to affirm the heretic belief of sufi practice. We know this game already.
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Not mention that school of Imam Abu Hanifah doesn’t reject hadiths as this man tries to say.
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No, to satisfy the pursuit of truth and goodness and what is most reliable according to Allah (2:282).
“School of Abu Hanifah of today” is no longer the original School of Abu Hanifah as he indicates.
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“s no longer the original School of Abu Hanifah as he indicates.”
Then he should stop lying, and he should stop saying this’s the school of Imam Abu Hanifa.
Or why Ahnaf reject hadiths.
He should have said why ((( I ))) reject hadiths.
Also, he said the Imam Bukhari is just narrator! Let him read the introduction of Imam Badr al-Din al-Ayni Al Hanafi about Imam Al Bukhari.
Why would you waste our time with those men?
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“No, to satisfy the pursuit of truth and goodness and what is most reliable according to Allah ”
Tell me what his Tareeqah is to show you what kind of “truth” he seeks.
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For those who are open to truth and goodness and to what Allah has told us is most reliable in 2(282).
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This is a good article to expose how contradictory to the Word of God ALMIGHTY can be to sources other than the Qur’an in which there are attributions towards the Prophet by men, narrated by men, and compiled by men over the course of long decades and centuries in the midst of civil wars.
May Allah soften our hearts to evidence whether we like or not….may Allah soften our hearts to the truth….may Allah soften our hearts to those who open up fresher perspectives.
May we be open to the Words of God over the claims of men from narrations over decades and centuries.
May Allah soften our hearts to those who bring knowledge from the Qur’an, the Words of God.
And may Allah bless all who want to keep the Qur’an to its primary position.
Ya Rabb. Ameen.
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Forgot to post the article…here is the article which refers to one of many issues mentioned by Dr. Adnan Ibrahim.
Surely Dr. Adnan Ibrahim mentions more points in his in depth lecture on this issue.
http://19.org/blog/banu-qurayza/
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You ignored the content of my first comment. There I explained that our religion does not rely on ahadith but on what is written in the Fiqh books. The Hanafi madhhab is clear. We know all the rulings of it from the earliest scholars. You reject these rulings using criticism of hadith books.
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I can give you examples in which this dajjjal called Adnan Ibrahim accepts weak hadiths, yet he rejects Sahih Hadith. His standard is his own mind only.
BTW, he rejects all hadiths of the Al masih Aldajjal and all hadiths that Isa عليه السلام will come at the end of time.
On the other hand, Adnan Ibrahim ‘mr. rational man’ has lectures about his grandmother and how she can tell the unseen from reading a cup of coffee
You are wasting our time by those men.
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We need to be mature even to accept whatever evidence whether we like everything that someone said or didn’t say.
ALMIGHTY God effectively tells us to follow the evidence wherever it leads us in many, many verses.
ALMIGHTY God tells us to bring the evidence if we are truthful.
So if we are engaging in an issue and evidence is brought from a different perspective, we need to examine any evidence anyone brings whether we like the person or not.
Attacking people on side issues is unbecoming of being concerned with the truth and goodness.
But it is very becoming when one’s heart is sealed upon what is comfortable.
If he rejects hadiths on dajjal or so on, then he gives reasons why he does that. He may be correct or not. And even if he is incorrect on that, it does not mean he is incorrect on other independent issues.
We can follow the evidence for a particular issue wherever it leads or we can choose not to follow evidence.
Life is relatively short.
This test is relatively short.
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You are promoting for liars!
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No these are good, virtuous, muttaqi, peaceful muhsinoon.
But that is besides the point.
ALMIGHTY God commands us to follow the truth from whatever source.
ALMIGHTY God commands us to even reject the Torah and the Qur’an if there is a better book (Surah 28).
But we can choose to follow God or follow our desires.
God wants us to transform our heart to follow the truth wherever it leads.
But it requires a soft heart. It requires a heart that is soft for the truth.
It is difficult for many.
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First of all, I really don’t care what you think about those liars.
Second, I know Adnan Ibrahim very well. He is a liar. He insulted the companions of the prophet pbuh such as Abu Hurirah & Ibn Umar. I really don’t care about that dajjal. He rejects hadiths about Al Masih Al Dajjal which have been narrated by more than 14 companions of the prophet, so it’s obvious that his problem with hadiths is definitely a theological one, and it has nothing to do whether hadiths are authentic or not. Also, he had an interview in which he commended Bashar Al Assad’s regime.
Regrading the first liar you posted his fake research. Again, he was making stuff from his own head, and he lied about the school of Imam Abu Hanifah. He even tried to degrade Imam Al Bukhahri by saying he’s just a narrator. Those people have theological problems. But don’t ever try to tell me that they have problem because of the transmission of hadiths. The evidence that he tried to make a point against books of hadiths as whole. Oh dear! He was like a goat which tries to push a mountain from its place.
You said
“But we can choose to follow God or follow our desires.”
I follow Allah عزوجل who has commanded us to follow the prophet pbuh not to follow the heretic sufis.
The prophet pbuh was a man who speaks, commands, and engages with others.
If you think his life and his sayings are not important foe muslims, that would be another issue. If you think they are very important, why would you think that Allah عزوجل didn’t want for the prophet’s teachings to reach us? I just imagine if the science of hadith were an European invention, how would they proud of it? I imagine they’d be screaming in each chance and event proudly for this kind of literature.
In contrast, the one who follows his desires is the one who tries to drop the teachings of the prophet pbuh because they don’t fit his desires.
“Say, “If you love God, then (((follow me))), and God will love you, and will forgive you your sins.” God is Forgiving and Merciful.
Say, “Obey God and (((the Messenger)))” But if they turn away—God does not love the faithless” QT
Don’t waste our time with those men.
May Allah expose them.
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They are not liars but truthful, trustworthy, beautiful people. Alhamdulillah for such people.
There you go again with attempts on impugning them without dealing with the issues.
If you think they are very important, why would you think that Allah عزوجل didn’t want for the prophet’s teachings to reach us?
That is not what they are saying. They are not saying that at all. What they are saying is would God have wanted efforts of men to overwrite God ALMIGHTY’s words.
As Allah says in His book, Kayfa Tahkumoon?
I just imagine if the science of hadith were an European invention, how would they proud of it?
This “science” would not be accepted in any trial of court.
It is evidence no doubt but it is not definite many of the time. If one would try to use a chain of narrators, most of whom are dead in the court of law, then any European, Asian, African court would throw it out at heresay.
Allah tells us that it is not reliable enough (2:282).
Indeed it would not be reliable enough for 2:282 if there was one step in the isnad since there are not two witnesses and it was not written down immediately.
Forget about 5 or 6 steps.
Use as evidence…..yes.
To overwrite the Book of God and to not let God speak for Himself but only through this lens?
Astaghfirullah.
“Say, “If you love God, then (((follow me))), and God will love you, and will forgive you your sins.” God is Forgiving and Merciful.
Say, “Obey God and (((the Messenger)))” But if they turn away—God does not love the faithless” QT
It is only a presumption that this means follow Bukhari, and Muslim, and so on.
It could also have meant that those who claim to follow God, must seek out the ***message*** that comes from God.
Some of Quraish would say that yeah….we do follow God.
But the Messenger could have been trying to tell them that they need to really out seek out the message of God if they REALLY follow Him.
Thus, it is ***only a presumption*** that those verses refer to compilations that have been written much later.
It is striking that every time God says to follow him, God uses the word ***messenger*** and not ****Muhammad**** , not even ****the Prophet****
But follow the ****messenger****
What ****message**** did God send him with?
The Qur’an.
This is not to suggest neglect of those compilations.
They are very important sources of knowledge and we must use them as sources of knowledge but they are sometimes not definitive.
Even the court of Zimbabwe would not accept “this science” as definitive let alone God ALMIGHTY (2:282).
There are just too many biases that can and have been shown to distort the truth from such a “science.
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-You reject that the apostate has to be killed.
-You believe that smoking does not break the fast.
-You believe that loans are permissible.
-You believe that Bashar al-Assad is a Muslim.
So what do you have to do with Islam and the Hanafi madhhab?
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“It is striking that every time God says to follow him, God uses the word ***messenger*** and not ****Muhammad**** , not even ****the Prophet****”
Yes! I know that road leads to a new religion. Is this new for heretic sufi? No.
What a waste of time,
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Rider, you need to understand that if person A says person B is honest and good and knowledgable, it does not mean that person A agrees to all of person B’s views.
I am speaking about the view of hadith of Shaykh Atabek and Dr. Adnan Ibrahim.
So, I believe that smoking does break fasting….my view of Assad is that he is a terrible war criminal and I supplicated so much for him to be overthrown that I cannot remember how many times I supplicated for that…I even made extra hajjat salat towards that.
Allah’s own words are evidence that apostates are not to be killed (2:256).
I did not read Shaykh Atabek’s articles on loans.
Again, I am talking about his overall sensible, intellectual, scholarly view of hadith.
I was not talking about everything under the sun.
So don’t waste my time.
My time is very precious for me.
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Abdullah,
You need to stop misrepresenting people.
Do you not understand that misrepresenting people’s views, let alone their character, is one of the worst types of lying?
So stop lying.
Do you not understand that lying is a severe sin?
Fear Allah bro.
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I appreciate that you do not believe like Atabek in these issues.
The Hanafi madhhab is codified in very old books. One of the oldest of them is Al-Mabsut from Sarakhsi. The opinions of Abu Hanifa, Shaybani and Abu Yusuf are transmitted very well. So the rulings of the Hanafi madhhab were known before the books of Hadith were compiled.
The killing of the apostate is an agreed upon issue. It is based on practical tradition transmitted through the Sahaba to the jurists. It is not based on singular ahadith. The Qur’an also gives no other option but death to the apostate. The verse about compulsion is misunderstood.
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Rider,
“The Qur’an also gives no other option but death to the apostate.”
I’m not quite sure how you have come to this conclusion, the Qur’an contains no such injunction to kill the apostate.
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The Qur’an does not explicitly command the apostate to be killed. But from the Qur’an it is clear that there are only three kind of people:
1- Muslims
2- Dhimmis
3- those who are none of the two
Now unless one believes that apostates can become Dhimmis there will be no other option than death for them. But of course the specifics of the ruling need to be established through the Sunnah.
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Bernard Lewis is dead (1916-2018).
A reminder for some people for what he said
“From an early date Muslim scholars recognized the danger of false testimony and hence false doctrine, and developed an elaborate science for criticizing tradition. “Traditional science”, as it was called, differed in many respects from modern historical source criticism, and modern scholarship has always disagreed with evaluations of traditional scientists about the authenticity and accuracy of ancient narratives. But their careful scrutiny of the chains of transmission and their meticulous collection and preservation of variants in the transmitted narratives give to medieval Arabic historiography a professionalism and sophistication without precedent in antiquity and without parallel in the contemporary medieval West. By comparison, the historiography of Latin Christendom seems poor and meagre, and even the more advanced and complex historiography of Greek Christendom still falls short of the historical literature of Islam in volume, variety and analytical depth”
(Bernard Lewis, Islam In History, 1993, Open Court Publishing, pp.104-105)
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