An excellent clip from one of Br. Aqil’s debates:
and God knows best.
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An excellent clip from one of Br. Aqil’s debates:
and God knows best.
Categories: Christianity, Daw'ah, Islam
Blogging Theology 
Quote from Br. Aqil’s clip:
“Once you reduce God, you have lost God.”
I think a lot of lay Christians never consider, or don’t realize the very serious logical implications and problems of reducing God to a man. (i’e. if Jesus was abused, mocked, killed, then so was God abused, mocked, killed).
God cannot be reduced.
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Lay Christians don’t, but there is a wrestle with this concept in their Christology. They refer to it as immutability and impassibility, i.e. how can God be unchanging, yet immanent and capable of suffering at the same time. They often then use the law of non-contradiction to distinguish between Person and Natures, but forget this is also *one* Being.
Please see my debate with Dr. Tony Costa on Jesus the Christ and his role as the “Son”. He went bright red with anger, it was hilarious to say the least.
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Ijaz,
Thanks for your response. I enjoy your comments, especially when you elucidate on some theological point from which we can all learn and improve our knowledge.
I think I remember that debate between you and Costa, but it sounds like it would be worth reviewing again.
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Even among the jews there are some who say that god has full experiential feeling of being hurt, feeling sad and inhaling burnt offerings even WITHOUT body. since yhwh doesnt need body to have human experiential feelings, then yhwh is only a super human being, not God.
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Ijaz,
Do you have any papers, articles, videos that you can post on the blog that deal with the issue of immutability and impassibility and the problems with using the law of non-contradiction in distinguishing Person and Natures?
I think that Muslims (as well as other interested parties) could benefit from having a clearer understanding of these issues, thus improving their critique and arguments in response to Christian assertions on the matter.
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Interesting comment mr.heathcliff.
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my question to a philosopher :
Good questions. Philosophers and theologians have often tried to explain and clarify the idea of Jesus being fully God and fully human, but the idea still seems very strange to me. One theory is that Jesus had two minds, a divine mind that was omniscient, and a human mind that was NOT omniscient. But then Jesus becomes a strange person with multiple personality disorder.
What if the divine mind thinks: “Don’t eat that meat, you will get food poisoning from it!” but the human mind thinks: “That meat looks tasty and I’m hungry, so I should have some of that meat now.” Which mind does Jesus “obey”?
If he is fully human, then he ought to follow the thinking of the mind with limited knowledge, just like us ordinary folk. But then if Jesus always follows his finite mind with limited knowledge, then of what use or significance is his infinite omniscient divine mind? The divine mind would be just like a little computer running inside his head, but that had no connection with his thinking.
On the other hand, if Jesus follows the thinking of his divine mind, then he is nothing like us ordinary human beings, because he knows every detail about every object and every event that exists, and can draw perfectly logical conclusions from that massive store of knowledge and do so in an instant.
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if you are a human and all of a sudden you start having full experiential feeling of gold fish, then either gold fish is passing those feelings to your mind or you are actually gold fish. if gold fish has full experience of human mind then it is no longer has fish mind. One mind has to cancel out another.
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Or in kristianities case BOTH minds experience each other lol
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Don’t be dishonest. You’re ignoring two natured christology and the passion of Christ. Secondly, theologians recognise the use of anthropomorphisms in scripture.
I don’t understand why you think you need to bignote yourself?
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Mr. Heathcliff,
Clearly there is a logical and philosophical contradiction. I am sure that after Christians offer their best unsatisfactory explanations, they eventually have to admit the contradiction or take refuge in the cop out assertion that, “it is a mystery.”
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Cerbie’s right. His god does have literal human qualities like white hair, a trait that was borrowed from Canaanite paganism. Thank you for admitting it, Cerbie!
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Ibn Issam
Why can;t you guys get the simple concept of god being capable of existing in all dimensions simultaneously? You say that allah cannot be reduced, yet you also say that he can be excluded from his own creation. The christian view is more rational.
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Not gonna bother addressing your misrepresentation of Islamic theology, but…
It’s more rational to you that the uncreated Creator created Himself? Okay 😂
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What kind of god does your god become in every dimension? does he have to make changes to himself to exist in different dimensions ? on earth, your god experienced temptations, hunger, sleeping….
When your god is held by a body does he have full experience of that body? Even when he overshadowed his own mom? you said “capable”
Where is your god before he is “capable”
Currently he not existing in every dimension?
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Brian
Why can’t you guys get the simple fact that your godman concept is a self-contradiction?
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You are a pagan brain.
god exists as invisible
Super human
Weak human
Angel
ghost
Animal
and has FULL EXPERIENCE in existing as these items
Currently , u worship a father who does not experience what it is to be his own son , human, animal, angel
then a person in trinity is limited.
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Let’s start the humorous discussion on Allah’s hands. Last I remember, the Muslims here didn’t agree whether they were literal or metaphorical.
But they have the audacity to complain about biblical anthropomorphisms and the incarnation. Laughably inconsistent as usual
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ARE u telling me that yhwh did not smell pleasing aroma and that he NEEDS HUMAN NOSTRILS to inhale? UTelling me it is not real?
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which one is correct
1.yhwh needs nostrils to take a sniff
2.yhwh does not need nostrils to take a sniff
If he does not need 1 , then he has full experience of human sniffing even without nostrils, right ?
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Mr. Heathcliff: You said”
which one is correct
1.yhwh needs nostrils to take a sniff
2.yhwh does not need nostrils to take a sniff
If he does not need 1 , then he has full experience of human sniffing even without nostrils, right ?”
My response:
Which one is correct:
1. Allah needs nostrils to take a sniff
2. Allah does not need nostrils to take a sniff
If he does not need one, then Allah has the full experience of human sniffing even without nostrils, right?
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Abu T
So allah can enter his creation? How does he do that without withholding some of his power? Is it one of islam’s mysteries?
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“So allah can enter his creation? How does he do that without withholding some of his power? Is it one of islam’s mysteries?”
Hey pagan, will your gods power be on display on day of judgement or will he be reducing his powers ? Will he become an incarnate pagan super human on day of judgement or will he need others finite intermediaries to do judging for him? will he be in hell dressed as pagan 10headed super human god since according to you god exists in all dimensions.
what does it mean WITH HOLDING. WHEN GOD spoke to moses what did ge WITH HOLD OF HIMSELF ? lets assume that GOD MAKES A veiling of his power, how does that mean he becomes a finite CREATED MEAT PUPPET??
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@Paulus
“Let’s start the humorous discussion on Allah’s hands. Last I remember, the Muslims here didn’t agree whether they were literal or metaphorical.”
Muslims don’t have disagreements about that because someone believing that hands are bodily parts becomes an apostate. This is a clear issue.
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heath
Which part of himself does allah leave behind when he enters creation? Is it his other leg? Or is it his left hands?
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RIder.
Paul Williams certainly believes that Allah had literal hands. Others did too.
But let’s ask. Muslims, does Allah have literal hands?
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@Paulus
This is a well known issue in Islamic theology. Some Salafis have a different opinion, yes. But it’s not an insignificant question. Those who believe that hands are bodily attributes are apostates. This verdict is in every classical theological source. So there are no Muslims disagreeing since the one who disagrees stops being a Muslim.
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Rider – Are you suggesting that those who believe Allah literally has hands do not likewise believe he literally has a body? Btw, we’re not saying physical, we’re simply say literal.
Muslims would say Allah has hands but unlike that of creation. So why is it such a stretch for you to say that he has a body but unlike creation?
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This is a clear issue. Read about it and then ask questions. This is the best site:
sunnianswers.wordpress.com
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Rider, I am not going to engage in a link dialogue. If you have something to say in response to the statements presented, then do so. On the other hand, if you don’t know how to respond, then just say so and you can let one of your brothers do the heavy lifting for you. However, don’t post links and expect me to follow them around for you.
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@Royal Son
In order to have a discussion about theology you need to know what the theology of the other is. I did not reference this site as a response but for you to know what Muslims actually believe so that you can criticise exactly this without making strawmans.
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Ib issam im mildly amused by the fact that you consider the idea of calling the incarnation, crucifixion and resurrection of Christ a mystery to be a cop-out. The entire concept of tauhid makes Allah a mystery and the way he interacts with creation a mystery. By your own standards, tauhid is a cop-out.
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Royal Son
Misrepresenting Islamic Theology does not help your argument.
If you call Tawhid (Unitarianism/Monotheism) a mystery, then you must also call the Tawhid of early Jews and even Jewish Christians a mystery as well. There is really no comparison between traditional Abrahamic Tawhid and the highly evolved man made innovated mystery that is Trinitarianism, something that no Jew ever believed in, including Jesus himself. There is no bigger cop-out from pure Abrahamic Unitarian Monotheism than Trinitarianism, and Atonement by crucifixion.
Again – “Once you reduce God, you have lost God.” – Aqil
The doctrine of incarnation which resulted in Jesus being abused, mocked, killed, means that likewise you are then forced to believe that God himself was abused, mocked, killed. Therefore your doctrinal beliefs have caused you to have lost God.
God cannot be reduced.
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The godman concept is a logical fallacy. Period!
Was Jesus All-Knowing (as he is allegedly God) or ignorant (as he is human) or both (and hence a self contradiction)?
Was Jesus All-Powerful (as he is allegedly God) or weak (as he is human) or both (and hence a self contradiction)?
Was Jesus free of all need (as he is allegedly God) or in need (as he is human) or both (and hence a self contradiction)?
Etc etc etc.
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Oh dear. Another muhammadan who doesn’t understand Christian doctrine. Perhaps Ijaz can *fix* you. He seems to think he’s good at that.
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O boy! The ‘you don’t understand’ card. The standard xtian response. How will I ever refute that?
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Atlas Partridge:
Is Allah completely outside of creation or does he enter into it every last third part of the night?
Is Allah completely outside of creation or is he closer to me than my jugular vein?
Is Allah completely unique or Does the Qur’an bear characteristics of His wisdom?
Is Allah one as we understand one when it’s applied to creation (e.g. there is one pencil on the table) or is not one in that sense?
Is Allah one in every sense or is He one in only one sense?
Is Allah one in every sense 99 in His attributes?
Is Allah one in every sense yet infinite in every sense?
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Great questions!
I’ll direct you to
http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/refuting_shamoun_on_monotheism_1
You can read all about this in full detail. I think Bassam Zawadi does an outstanding job with his articles. He is fair and balanced in contrast to that arrogant potato Scam Shamoun he is refuting. It’s worth reading it if you really care about the answers to your questions. There are multiple parts.
Just to answer a few in short:
“Is Allah completely outside of creation or is he closer to me than my jugular vein?”
He is close to our jugular vein is meant as ‘He is close to you by knowledge’. He can be close to you by the attribute knowledge (since obviously God able to do that).
“Is Allah completely unique or Does the Qur’an bear characteristics of His wisdom?”
The Qur’an is a PART of his wisdom just like the Torah is a part of God’s knowledge/wisdom that He gave to Moses (as). It’s not some separate person worthy of worship.
“Is Allah one as we understand one when it’s applied to creation (e.g. there is one pencil on the table) or is not one in that sense?”
Yes. I hope you won’t go down the road of saying “well that means He is LIKE His creation” cus that’s a BAD argument.
“Is Allah one in every sense or is He one in only one sense?
Is Allah one in every sense 99 in His attributes?
Is Allah one in every sense yet infinite in every sense?”
Not sure what you mean by those.
Anyways check the articles that I sent you.
Now can I get some answers for my questions?
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Atlas Partride wrote:
“Just to answer a few in short:
“Is Allah completely outside of creation or is he closer to me than my jugular vein?”
He is close to our jugular vein is meant as ‘He is close to you by knowledge’. He can be close to you by the attribute knowledge (since obviously God able to do that).”
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My Response:
You’re reading into the text something that isn’t there. It says ALLAH is closer to us that our jugular vein. It does not say His KNOWLEDGE is closer.
But it’s interesting that you want to separate Allah’s knowledge from Allah Himself – i.e. Allah’s knowledge is inside creation, while Allah Himself is transcendent and outside of creation.
By separating Allah from His knowledge, you have now essentially stripped Allah of having knowledge, thus He is not all-knowing but no-knowing.
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Atlas Partridge wrote:
“Is Allah completely unique or Does the Qur’an bear characteristics of His wisdom?”
The Qur’an is a PART of his wisdom just like the Torah is a part of God’s knowledge/wisdom that He gave to Moses (as). It’s not some separate person worthy of worship.
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My response:
So now Allah you say the Qur’an is a part of His wisdom. If the Qur’an is a part of His wisdom, and the Qur’an is inside creation (i.e. on the tablets in the heavens), yet Allah Himself is outside of creation, then Allah is also stripped of that attribute of wisdom.
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Atlas Partridge wrote:
“Is Allah one as we understand one when it’s applied to creation (e.g. there is one pencil on the table) or is not one in that sense?”
Yes. I hope you won’t go down the road of saying “well that means He is LIKE His creation” cus that’s a BAD argument.
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My response:
Claiming something to be a bad argument is one thing, but you have to demonstrate it. Essentially, you have conceded that Allah has an attribute that is the same as in creation, i.e. His oneness. You have thus violated Tawheed al-Asmaa was-Sifaat.
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Atlas Partridge wrote:
“Is Allah one in every sense or is He one in only one sense?
Is Allah one in every sense 99 in His attributes?
Is Allah one in every sense yet infinite in every sense?”
Not sure what you mean by those.
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My response:
My questions are quite straightforward. You claimed that I’d be making a bad argument if I say that likening Allah’s attribute of oneness to creation is likening Allah himself to creation. Essentially then you’re calling tawheed a bad argument. I’m not sure how you can then go on to say you don’t know what I’m talking about when I ask about this oneness.
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Atlas Partridge wrote:
“Anyways check the articles that I sent you.
Now can I get some answers for my questions?”
If your responses were inspired by Mr. Zawadi, then there’s not much point in wasting my time reading his article. Instead, let’s keep our interaction in here.
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“You’re reading into the text something that isn’t there. It says ALLAH is closer to us that our jugular vein. It does not say His KNOWLEDGE is closer.”
Nop. Read the verse carefully.
Q 50:16 says: And We have already created man and KNOW what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than [his] jugular vein.
It’s in context of His knowledge. I let the text speak for itself.
“But it’s interesting that you want to separate Allah’s knowledge from Allah Himself – i.e. Allah’s knowledge is inside creation, while Allah Himself is transcendent and outside of creation”
I’m not separating anything.
“o now Allah you say the Qur’an is a part of His wisdom. If the Qur’an is a part of His wisdom, and the Qur’an is inside creation (i.e. on the tablets in the heavens), yet Allah Himself is outside of creation, then Allah is also stripped of that attribute of wisdom”
Allah is not stripped of anything. The Qur’an that we hold today is just the material representation of the Qur’an that is with Him (ie a part of his ATTRIBUTE knowledge). Just because a piece of His knowledge is accessible to us doesn’t imply that He all of a sudden is stripped from it. Where the hell do you get this nonsense from?
If the Torah is a part of your god’s knowledge then I would simple ask: Can your god be outside of creation if he wanted to? If yes then by your own “logic” he is stripped of knowledge since his Torah is inside creation if not then your god can’t even escape the very thing he created.
“Essentially, you have conceded that Allah has an attribute that is the same as in creation, i.e. His oneness. You have thus violated Tawheed al-Asmaa was-Sifaat.”
It’s so predictable you would say this. Firstly I haven’t violated Tawheed al-Asmaa was-Sifaat. This was defined by people who believe in His oneness like I do. So they defined it in that context. So to say that it goes against Tawheed al-Asmaa was-Sifaat is silly.
I however do still believe there is a difference.
You have to look at His attributes an ask IN WHAT WAY are they different. I could also say: we have mercy/knowledge and so does God and hence He is like creation. But that would be a false analogy. In what way do His attributes differ from ours: Well He is the MOST-Merciful and ALL-Knowing.
In what way does His oneness differ from ours: His oneness is uncreated while ours is created.
We are ONE being and God is ONE being (according to your theology). Is He like creation? You’ll say no . You’ll try and give me an explanation in what way Him being a ONE being is different from ours. I’m just asking for consistency and do the same for the attribute ONENESS.
Every attribute of His is different by default because they are uncreated.
Now we all know what you think: our God is 3 persons and yet He is one God, etc .
So you’ll try and bring it back to your trinitarian god. But let’s look at just one of them.
Let’s look at the Father.
In what way does His oneness differ from ours? Again, I am NOT asking you this question in light of your trinitarian god. You say you have ONE Father, ONE Son and ONE Holy Spirit.
All three of them are unitarian.
In Islamic theology Allah is the same as the Father.
So in what way does the oneness of the Father differ from ours?
“If your responses were inspired by Mr. Zawadi, then there’s not much point in wasting my time reading his article. Instead, let’s keep our interaction in here.”
Wow you really refuted him there!!!
My responses are inspired by common sense and so are Zawadi’s and that’s exactly why I like his approach. He always gives fair and balanced answers. He doesn’t beat around the bush.
It’s a good read.
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Sorry forgot to add my response to this:
““But it’s interesting that you want to separate Allah’s knowledge from Allah Himself – i.e. Allah’s knowledge is inside creation, while Allah Himself is transcendent and outside of creation””
I’m no separating anything. His knowledge being near us does in no way imply that it’s separated from Him.
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royal pagan, is God capable of speaking , knowing and hearing outside of CREATION ? YES OR NO ?
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pagan said:
You’re reading into the text something that isn’t there. It says ALLAH is closer to us that our jugular vein. It does not say His KNOWLEDGE is closer.
But it’s interesting that you want to separate Allah’s knowledge from Allah Himself – i.e. Allah’s knowledge is inside creation, while Allah Himself is transcendent and outside of creation.
By separating Allah from His knowledge, you have now essentially stripped Allah of having knowledge, thus He is not all-knowing but no-knowing.
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since your god like the pagan gods before him requires his voice to separate from himself, his logos to separate from himself, his power stripped from himself to make him empty god, it gives you no right to impose your belief on the quran. The quran says God is identified as powerful and has full power over creation. so then logically if he has full power and control over creation he would not need to become body which is filled by “holy spirit” to know the thoughts of people.
it is your god who needs to become a physical thing because he is INCAPABLE in his invisible self.
When no one existed God knew all the details of creation and knew hearts and minds before they even came to existence, there isnt even a past,present and future for God.
THe quran never says God knowledge knows it says God knows and it never says GODS KNOWLEDGE is INSIDE creation…where you pulling this bs from?
1.Where does the text say that an all knowing being has to be physically in something to know
2. Where does the text say that Gods knowledge, power and hearing need to travel before God knows something ?
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Still waiting for your responses to my questions Royal Son.
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Atlas Partridge said:
“You’re reading into the text something that isn’t there. It says ALLAH is closer to us that our jugular vein. It does not say His KNOWLEDGE is closer.”
Nop. Read the verse carefully.
Q 50:16 says: And We have already created man and KNOW what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than [his] jugular vein.
It’s in context of His knowledge. I let the text speak for itself.
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My Response:
The verse proves my point not yours. The verse says that Allah knows what his soul whispers to him, and WE ARE CLOSER to him than [his] jugular vein.
It does not say OUR KNOWLEDGE IS CLOSER. So the verse proves my point, not yours.
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Atlas Partridge said:
“But it’s interesting that you want to separate Allah’s knowledge from Allah Himself – i.e. Allah’s knowledge is inside creation, while Allah Himself is transcendent and outside of creation”
I’m not separating anything.
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My Response:
Yes you are, because you say that Allah’s knowledge is in creation but Allah Himself is outside of creation. That is separating the two.
“o now Allah you say the Qur’an is a part of His wisdom. If the Qur’an is a part of His wisdom, and the Qur’an is inside creation (i.e. on the tablets in the heavens), yet Allah Himself is outside of creation, then Allah is also stripped of that attribute of wisdom”
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Atlas Partridge said:
Allah is not stripped of anything. The Qur’an that we hold today is just the material representation of the Qur’an that is with Him (ie a part of his ATTRIBUTE knowledge). Just because a piece of His knowledge is accessible to us doesn’t imply that He all of a sudden is stripped from it. Where the hell do you get this nonsense from?
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My Response:
Now you are making matters worse for yourself. You are saying that the Qur’an is a part of Allah’s attribute. Very plainly, if a part of Allah’s attribute is in creation and the rest of Allah is outside of creation, then you have made the separation plainly yourself.
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Atlas Partridge said:
If the Torah is a part of your god’s knowledge then I would simple ask: Can your god be outside of creation if he wanted to? If yes then by your own “logic” he is stripped of knowledge since his Torah is inside creation if not then your god can’t even escape the very thing he created.
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My Response:
YHWH is both immanent and transcendent; Allah is only transcendent, therefore your assertion fails.
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Atlas Partridge said:
“Essentially, you have conceded that Allah has an attribute that is the same as in creation, i.e. His oneness. You have thus violated Tawheed al-Asmaa was-Sifaat.”
It’s so predictable you would say this. Firstly I haven’t violated Tawheed al-Asmaa was-Sifaat. This was defined by people who believe in His oneness like I do. So they defined it in that context. So to say that it goes against Tawheed al-Asmaa was-Sifaat is silly.
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My Response:
Your appeal to authority does not escape the conundrum of the doctrine in the first place. Your statement blatantly contradicts the very concept of the complete and utter uniqueness of Allah and His attributes in your candid affirmation that Allah’s oneness is the same as that of creation.
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Atlas Partridge said:
I however do still believe there is a difference.
You have to look at His attributes an ask IN WHAT WAY are they different. I could also say: we have mercy/knowledge and so does God and hence He is like creation. But that would be a false analogy. In what way do His attributes differ from ours: Well He is the MOST-Merciful and ALL-Knowing.
In what way does His oneness differ from ours: His oneness is uncreated while ours is created.
We are ONE being and God is ONE being (according to your theology). Is He like creation? You’ll say no . You’ll try and give me an explanation in what way Him being a ONE being is different from ours. I’m just asking for consistency and do the same for the attribute ONENESS.
Every attribute of His is different by default because they are uncreated.
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My Response:
Your explanation falls far short of what Tauhid teaches. It doesn’t merely say Allah is greater in degree in his attributes than creation. That is a misrepresentation of Tauhid. It speaks of the complete otherness, and incomparable nature of His attributes. When speaking of Allah’s hands for example, it’s not merely that they are greater hands, but they are completely unlike anything in creation.
You tried to then point to my belief in God’s oneness as a Christian and assert that the same dilemma would apply to me. The problem for you is that my belief about the concept of God is not the same as yours. I do not hold to the doctrine of tauhid. You do.
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Atlas Partridge said:
Now we all know what you think: our God is 3 persons and yet He is one God, etc .
So you’ll try and bring it back to your trinitarian god. But let’s look at just one of them.
Let’s look at the Father.
In what way does His oneness differ from ours? Again, I am NOT asking you this question in light of your trinitarian god. You say you have ONE Father, ONE Son and ONE Holy Spirit.
All three of them are unitarian.
In Islamic theology Allah is the same as the Father.
So in what way does the oneness of the Father differ from ours?
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My Response:
No, Allah is NOT the same as the Father. Allah is not a Father to anyone.
You also ask how does the oneness of the Father differ from the oneness of Allah. Essentially, you have sunk your own ship, because now you have essentially asserted that Allah’s oneness can be compared with a person of the Trinity when again Tauhid states that Allah cannot be compared in His attributes with anything else. You already affirmed Allah’s oneness being like that of creation. Then you went into damage control to say it’s partially comparable with creation, but that is not what Tauhid states. It does not allow for partial comparisons. Comparisons are completely ruled out.
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Atlas Partridge said:
“If your responses were inspired by Mr. Zawadi, then there’s not much point in wasting my time reading his article. Instead, let’s keep our interaction in here.”
Wow you really refuted him there!!!
My responses are inspired by common sense and so are Zawadi’s and that’s exactly why I like his approach. He always gives fair and balanced answers. He doesn’t beat around the bush.
It’s a good read.
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My Reponse:
As I’ve said to Rider, if you have something to say, do say it here, but I will not follow links. I do not have the inclination or desire to do so.
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Atlas Partridge said:
Apperantly when I put forward the following argument
[[[
If you are going to say that he is 100% God and 100% man then that means he has to have all the attributes of God and all the attributes of man. I’m arguing that you can’t say that Jesus knows ALL (as he is allegedly God) and also ignorant (as he is human) and pretend that this isn’t breaking the laws of logic.
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My Response:
The law of non-contradiction states that
X cannot be both true and false at the same time and in the same sense.
Let’s examine two statements:
1. Jesus knows all things.
2. Jesus didn’t know the day nor the hour.
Aside from the fact that there are other interpretations of Mark 13:32 that do not involve an ignorance of the day or the hour based on lexical range and parallels in the Old Testament, the law of non-contradiction does not apply here.
Why? Because we are not speaking of the same sense.
In statement 1 – the sense is according to His divine nature.
In statement 2 – the sense is according to His human nature.
Now, at best you can only say that you don’t see how these two natures can operate together in one person. In fact, following Tauhid, you have no business saying how the divine nature would operate with a human nature because Allah’s nature is a complete mystery and should not be compared with your understanding of how created nature operates with created nature. You already believe as a Muslim that Allah’s nature does operate with human nature because you believe that Allah (divine) gives you(human) life, sustains you(human) and takes your(human) soul at your death. How does He do this? Allah knows best you would say. You would not presume to even begin to describe because you have no reference point to work with. It would be completely other than what your mind comprehends of (mere) creation in its lone operations. Of course, beliefs of Allah’s interaction with creation already has numerous problems in itself, but that is a necessary precondition (albeit self-contradictory) to make any inroads into an intelligible assertion about Allah’s existence.
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Atlas Partridge said:
A human mind is limited in the amount of things it can know anyways. But knowledge is infinite. So this means there exists information X that the human mind doesn’t know. Obviously God’s mind does know because He is the All-Knower.
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My Response:
Yet another problem with your assertion. Again, you have to presuppose comparability of Allah’s attributes to that of creation or order to make a statement about his incomparable attribute of knowledge.
When we speak of knowing. That means something in terms of creation. However, since Allah’s attributes are completely unlike and other than anything in creation, then what does “knowing” mean when applied to Allah? Just as you do not know what it means for Allah to have hands, because they would be in a complete other category of existence than hands in creation to complete incomprehensibility, then to speak of knowledge cannot have the same meaning as what we think of when speaking of Allah’s knowledge. Essentially Allah has something that is called knowledge, but doesn’t fit into any category of understanding of what we mean when we speak of knowledge in its regular sense. This is all the problem of Tauhid.
Following this, you cannot now even initiate a debate against the ability of divine knowledge to exist alongside human knowledge in one person. Which brings me to my next question, is Allah a person? If you say yes, are you going to say He is a person in the way we are persons? That the way in which “knowledge” operates in His being is the same way in which knowledge would operate within a created being and therefore you can say how his “knowledge” would operate with “knowledge” of another nature?
Again, you’re presupposing the likeness of Allah with His creation, denying Tauhid in your attempts to affirm it. You presuppose that you can fathom how Allah’s attributes would operate, and the limitations thereof such to make assertions about whether it is possible or impossible for another nature to interact with his own.
However, if you wish to make the bold statement that Allah nature cannot interact with created nature, then you have discounted the possibility of the work of creation, miracles, life-impartation, maintenance, sustainance and sovereignty to be attributed to Allah.
————————————
Atlas Partridge said:
Question: Since Jesus is both, does he know information X or does he not?]]]
All one needs to do is just to say “you asserted that it’s illogical” and poof it’s magically refuted.
When you have the guts to come with a real answer, just let me know.
————————————
My Response:
Since we’re dealing with a person of two natures, I will not answer according to a person with only one nature. I know you want to have such an answer, because you want to presuppose the comparability of God with His creation, thus violating Tauhid, since you see creation having one nature, so you frame your arguments according to single-natured creatures and can’t move Allah outside of that paradigm. that is the problem of Tauhid, not the problem of my faith.
Here’s the answer:
From the sense of His human nature, He does not know all things.
From the sense of His divine nature, He knows all things.
I know you want to try and reduce Jesus to one nature, but that’s not going to be addressing what Christians believe.
————————————
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I didn’t say it explicitly says that He is closer to us in knowledge. If the verse first says that He knows what is in our souls and then
continues to say that He is closer to us then our jugular vein then I interpret that last statement in light of the previous one.
Very simple. God doesn’t know something more when He is literally closer to you (in creation).
Kinda sad that a Christian is asking for something explicit while his own bible can’t even explicitly state the main doctrine (ie. the trinity).
” Very plainly, if a part of Allah’s attribute is in creation and the rest of Allah is outside of creation”
The rest? You’re not dividing a pie here.
I thought you believed that God can be inside and outside of creation if He wanted to.
If so then He can have all of his attributes fully with Him or otherwise He wouldn’t really be God, would He?
So you believe in a god that if He sends some knowledge into creation then that means that He automatically lost that knowledge if He Himself doesn’t go into creation?
I don’t. Mine God is superiour than that.
“YHWH is both immanent and transcendent; Allah is only transcendent, therefore your assertion fails.”
My assertion doesn’t fail. You didn’t answer my question, as expected.
Your objection is that God is stripped of knowledge X if knowledge X is inside creation and He Himself outside creation.
I’m just asking you if the Torah is a part of God’s knowledge, which you can have access to, then that means God HAS to be in creation or otherwise He loses that part of His knowledge?
Do you hear yourself? You’re turning the attribute ‘knowledge’ into a pie and say ‘Here you go creation this piece is for you so I’ll automatically lose it if I don’t stay ‘near you’ (in creation)’.
My explanation doesn’t fall short. Sorry pal.
If your oneness is uncreated then that is not just greater but DIFFERENT then a created oneness.
You can ignore that as much as you like and claim a hollow victory.
I asked you the following [We are ONE being and God is ONE being (according to your theology). Is He like creation?]
And your answer was… well there wasn’t an answer. You said that you believe in trinity and that I don’t but that doesn’t change ANYTHING.
In my belief and yours God is still ONE being. My point is that so are we! I asked you how is that different from creation.
Your belief says that He is different in THAT attribute ‘One being’ because He is (or are) tripersonal.
Now you make use of something else (ANOTHER attribute) to make the distinction of Him being different in the ‘One being’-attribute compared to us being one being.
Which is the very same thing you accuse me of when I use the attribute UNCREATED to make the distinction between Him being one and us being one.
“No, Allah is NOT the same as the Father. Allah is not a Father to anyone”
Yea no kidding Sherlock, I know Allah is not a Father to anyone. That’s not what I meant. We see the Father as the creator of everything including Jesus.
We also say that Isa is the ‘same’ as your Jesus but by that we don’t mean that He is God or the son of God etc etc etc.
“now you have essentially asserted that Allah’s oneness can be compared with a person of the Trinity when again Tauhid states that Allah cannot be compared in His attributes with anything else”
Mate I don’t believe the Trinity even exists. I’m just showing you your double standards.
“You already affirmed Allah’s oneness being like that of creation.”
Perhaps you should start reading what I actually say for a change. I say His oneness is uncreated while ours is created. Your sentence is kinda ironic as well “… like that of CREATION”. That last word in your own sentence already refutes you.
You’re not even answering my questions which is SO TYPICAL of Christians.
I’ll ask it again and don’t beat around the bush and start claiming hollow victories.
In what way does the oneness of the Father differ from ours?
But you wont answer cus you can’t. If I ask you the same question of the Father which you asked of Allah you’ll either change the subject or end up refuting yourself.
“…You already believe as a Muslim that Allah’s nature does operate with human nature because you believe that Allah (divine) gives you(human) life, sustains you(human) and takes your(human) soul at your death….”
Do you actually believe what you yourself are saying?
Allah taking a life or giving a life is not the same as BECOMING that which He creates.
Your god allegedly BECAME human. Allah didn’t BECOME that which he creates so your entire nonsense just falls apart. The fact that you believe you are making valid points is just laughable.
Then you talk about the two natures which is the very same thing that is the self-contradiction of your belief. Jesus is ONE person. One.
You have to make him jump into manbody when he doesn’t know and then make him jump into Godbody when something supernatural has to be explained.
According to your belief everything Jesus says and does must be in such a way that it applies to both his natures otherwise you are dividing him up. James White said this as well.
So if he for example eats: is it applicable to human nature? Yes. Is it applicable to divine nature? No.
If he dies then it’s just the human nature and we separate the divine nature again.
What a mess!
If I was a Jew who believed in the Tenakh then I would reject “this” Jesus in a heartbeat.
Thank God I have an honorable prophet Isa instead of a self-contradicting mangod who doesn’t exist.
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QUESTIONS
1. the crosstians believe in “god the god” and “god the man”
did “god the god” create “god the man” from HIMSELF? so what in the INVISIBLE god BECAME CREATED ?
2. why do the crosstians say that the natures DO not mix, but the person MIXES with two natures?
so how does it work?
nature – from person and plug in ANIMAL /human to the person? so the person is divine natureless and EXPERIENCES everything human being experiences?
the crosstian wrote :
My Response:
From the Christian perspective, the two natures of Christ exist in the person of Christ, while Christ sleeps, His divine nature still operates.
QUESTION :
NATURE operates WITH OR WITHOUT the CONSCIOUS person?
is the CONSCIOUS person EXPERIENCING sleep and at the SAME time experiencing NO sleep?
i didn’t even ASK about “his nature” i asked about the “divine person”
what is that CURRENTLY doing while the SAME person is sleeping.
you speak as if NATURE is another conscious BEING and is ANOTHER CONSCIOUSNESS beside the person lol what a mess.
that’s 2 consciousnesses plus each person of trinity = 4 things
4. in hell, people will be taking the wrath of god.
is your god ABLE TO PUNISH in hell ONLY when he ENTERS it or does he punish WITHOUT entering it?
5. is the divine person WITH divine nature experience the intensity of the heat from his own punishment ?
6. if he REMAINS SEPARATE while punishing, then logically god remains SEPARATE from hell. why then he cannot be SEPARATE from earth while he is heard?
NOBODY can touch, taste, smell god. your god was a CREATED being.
when your “god the man” is performing “miracles”
he needs to be filled by “holy spirit” and requires a BODY, but then how does he give the EXPERIENCES of miracle working to the “divine person” when “divine person” HAS NO MIXTURE with the “miracle working human body”
which then means that the “divine person” is NOT DOING THE miracles . his CREATED version/puppet which MIXES with CREATION is performing them.
it would be good thing for kristian to ADMIT that his god REQUIRES TO become CREATED and that this CREATED version ALWAYS existed with the three triplets in trinity. WITHOUT this CREATED version, your god is completely clueless as to what is happening in creation.
7. according to mark, jesus knows the thoughts of the pharisees? did jesus have to be in the body of the pharisee? did the holy ghost inform jesus? did the ghost need to be in the body of the pharisee to inform jesus?
8. how does God being SEEN AND HEARD imply that god BECOMES created being ?
9. you have “god the man” and you have “god the god” = the same person.
how many other CREATED versions of god exist in the trinity?
10. is gods NATURE DETACHABLE from the person? or inherent within the person EXISTS ALL POWERS and if removing the powers , one DISABLES the person?
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“YHWH is both immanent and transcendent; Allah is only transcendent, therefore your assertion fails.”
no, there is yhwh and there is a CREATED yhwh which CANNOT give the uncreated yhwh EXPERIENCE of anything CREATED.
the uncreated yhwh is completely DISCONNECTED from the world, he is a far , distant god and CAN never be experienced. he has to FORM / create from himself a CREATED partner which is strangely made out of blood and meat. this created partner is not one in knowledge with the distant yhwh, one in power, one in strength , this created yhwh is a creature which has human feelings.
if “divine nature” does not mix,then person in his divine nature is completely OBLIVIOUS to what goes on in creation. I JUST would like you to admit that the “person in divine nature ” in his “divine nature” has FULL experience of being a created human, that would be good
jesus says ” i am”
did the human just make himself into god? you will say that the “divine person ” used a human body as vessel . okay, did the divine person use jesus’ human body to beg his father in heaven to remove the cup?
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royal ,
you believe that yhwh was in the womb of mary , but had no EXPERIENCES of being in womb of his mother. you believe CREATED yhwh was in WOMB of his mother. how did the CREATED yhwh PASS on EXPERIENCES of feelings in a womb to the UNCREATED yhwh?
it is IN LOCATION , but it does not EXPERIENCE it? so god has NO FEELINGS in his “divine PERSON” of what it is to be BIRTHED?
if your god is “all POWERFUL” why cant WOMBS hold the ENTIRETY of god?
if your god is “all powerful;” why can’t he EXPERIENCE in his “divine person” the FEELINGS of being in a womb?
try to answer the questions because so FAR you have only told me that CREATED yhwh is having the experiences of leaving private parts. as created yhwh is being BORN, does he, as he is LEAVING birth canal , KNOW that it is FULLY yhwh which has ABSOLUTELY NO EXPERIENCE OF leaving birth canal?
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The Logos was made flesh. Get over it. God does not owe anyone an explanation or justification beyond what he has revealed in the NT.
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And there it is the “my bible says so so there!”
Ironically That is actually the best argument you have.
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U pagans usually take away the “divine nature” from the person and have a DISABLED person incarnate
But what is a person WITHOUT NATURE? it is BEINGLESS
it is without being.
Who died for your sins? A disabled natureless person?
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Ironically Erasmus, they are refuting their own theology when they mock the idea of mystery since their very concept of Allah is a complete mystery with Allah’s being and ways being so mysterious that the human mind cannot fathom it or liken it to anything.
Notice Mr. Heathcliff’s strawman, implying that the Christian doctrine of incarnation implies a removal of Christ’s divine nature, when in fact the doctrine strongly upholds the 2 natures in Christ.
He also goes on to say “But what is a person WITHOUT NATURE? it is BEINGLESS”
So Mr. Heathcliff, is Allah a person? Is he a being? Does he have a nature, many natures, or no nature?
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“when in fact the doctrine strongly upholds the 2 natures in Christ.”
Well it does and it doesn’t. Kinda. Sort of. The divine nature is 3 personal. But in the case of Jesus? Nononononono. Taaraaa! Why? Because its not allowed. It doesnt work any more.
But its not a contradiction, no, its mysterious, we believe in one God gobbledygook.
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burhunaddin
The person of jesus had two natures, not two persons. It is not that hard.
The contradiction is that allah – according to some muslims – cannot enter creation and hop around on his one leg, striving, and failing, to clap with his two right hands. Yet, it is claimed that allah is closer to humans than their jugular veins.
How does this shiva rip-off god become close to humans without withholding his powers? How does balance himself? Does he have a walking cane in each of his right hands to prevent tipping over?
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Royal pagan
you have jesus as “divine person” and “human person”
IMAGINE the “divine person” says to the SAME person who is “human person”
“How does it feel like to have temptations”
NOW if they are the same person, how come the “divine person” does not know the feeling of temptation?
When the SAME person is going through temptations, what is the “divine person” doing?
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“The contradiction is that allah – according to some muslims – cannot enter creation and hop around on his one leg, striving, and failing, to clap with his two right hands. Yet, it is claimed that allah is closer to humans than their jugular veins.”
While yhwh was held in a womb, what experiences did he have ? It is no good to say your god is INSIDE something without being TAKEN over by the feelings. so yhwh fully experienced the feeling of being born?
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The stupidity of Christians is beyond everything. All they keep doing is criticise the concept of a monotheist God. The same as that in Judaism.
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“The person of jesus had two natures, not two persons. It is not that hard.”
No not hard really flexible. One of these persons is THE divine nature of which there is exclusively only one THREE personal nature. But oops nono cant be in the case of Jesus.
And its not “had” two natures, he still got them dude its not that hard.
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“One of these persons is THE divine …” corr.
one of these natures is THE divine nature …
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“…that the human mind cannot fathom”
There is a big difference Christians here are ignoring when we put forward our arguments.
Something that is BEYOND reason/comprehension doesn’t have to be problematic nor erroneous. A four-dimensional space is beyond our comprehension but we can still mathematically define it. As long as it doesn’t go against the laws of LOGIC then there is no reason to call it erroneous.
But in the case of the mangod concept, this is not beyond reason/comprehension. This is AGAINST reason/comprehension because it goes directly against the laws of logic.
You cannot say that Jesus knows ALL (if he is God) and also he doesn’t know all (since he is man) and expect that just saying ‘it’s a mystery’, that will magically make the self-contradiction go away.
He is said to be 100% God and 100% man. To know X and to not know X isn’t beyond reason. It’s against reason and logic.
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bruhnaddin
Yes, jesus’ human nature was not divine. That is not the christian position. What aren’t you getting?
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atlas
“But in the case of the mangod concept, this is not beyond reason/comprehension. This is AGAINST reason/comprehension because it goes directly against the laws of logic.You cannot say that Jesus knows ALL (if he is God) and also he doesn’t know all (since he is man) and expect that just saying ‘it’s a mystery’, that will magically make the self-contradiction go away.”
Rubbish. You have to demonstrate that the man god concept is illogical – you have not at all. You have merely asserted it.
There is nothing difficult about this – only an ignorant nomad like mohammed would find this simple concept incomprehensible and muslims are following his example.
Jesus has two natures, human and divine. Not hard at all, is it?
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. “You have to demonstrate that the man god concept is illogical – you have not at all. You have merely asserted it.”
okay, how does an ALL SEEING being have full experience of being BLIND like a disabled human and still be ALL seeing? That would mean god take of his all seeing ATTRIBUTE AND replace it with blindness , but this is impossible because gods SEEING is beginingless and it never stops or starts. So here i have demonstrated why a god becoming finite is illogical
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“Rubbish. You have to demonstrate that the man god concept is illogical – you have not at all. You have merely asserted it.
There is nothing difficult about this – only an ignorant nomad like mohammed would find this simple concept incomprehensible and muslims are following his example.
Jesus has two natures, human and divine. Not hard at all, is it?”
I haven’t merely asserted it Brian. I have demonstrated to you that it is illogical.
If you are going to say that he is 100% God and 100% man then that means he has to have all the attributes of God and all the attributes of man. I’m arguing that you can’t say that Jesus knows ALL (as he is allegedly God) and also ignorant (as he is human) and pretend that this isn’t breaking the laws of logic.
A human mind is limited in the amount of things it can know anyways. But knowledge is infinite. So this means there exists information X that the human mind doesn’t know. Obviously God’s mind does know because He is the All-Knower.
Question: Since Jesus is both, does he know information X or does he not?
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atlas
Jesus has two natures – what can’t you understand about that? Fully human and fully divine. You haven’t even come close to demonstrating that this is illogical.
What is illogical is that allah can’t enter his own creation. How does that work? Why is allah powerless to enter time and space?
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heath
“okay, how does an ALL SEEING being have full experience of being BLIND like a disabled human and still be ALL seeing? That would mean god take of his all seeing ATTRIBUTE AND replace it with blindness , but this is impossible because gods SEEING is beginingless and it never stops or starts. So here i have demonstrated why a god becoming finite is illogical”
Okay, which parts of his divine nature does allah leave behind when he draws near to your jugular? How can he be within time and space whilst maintaining his fully divine nature?
Also, jesus had two natures – one human, one divine. It isn’t hard – your demonstration fails.
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“Jesus has two natures – what can’t you understand about that? Fully human and fully divine. You haven’t even come close to demonstrating that this is illogical.
What is illogical is that allah can’t enter his own creation. How does that work? Why is allah powerless to enter time and space?”
You’re not going to answer my question, are you?
I’m saying that having those two natures is ILLOGICAL itself. If you have both natures then that means you’re fully God and fully man and the rest of my argument is just a copy paste of what I said before which you just didn’t bother responding and all you did what repeat the same phrase “He has two natures”. I am arguing against that. I am saying that THAT is what is illogical.
So I’ll say it again but answer this time please for God’s sake!
[[[
If you are going to say that he is 100% God and 100% man then that means he has to have all the attributes of God and all the attributes of man. I’m arguing that you can’t say that Jesus knows ALL (as he is allegedly God) and also ignorant (as he is human) and pretend that this isn’t breaking the laws of logic.
A human mind is limited in the amount of things it can know anyways. But knowledge is infinite. So this means there exists information X that the human mind doesn’t know. Obviously God’s mind does know because He is the All-Knower.
Question: Since Jesus is both, does he know information X or does he not?
]]]
“Why is allah powerless to enter time and space?”
There are certain things that God can’t do. Can God sin? Can your god sin?
Can He not exist? Can He become the devil? Can God not exist?
This isn’t a limitation of God but rather emphasizes His Greatness and Magnificence. The very fact that He can’t go that low only illustrates how Great He is. Just like God can’t become the devil (because it contradicts his attributes like the Most-Righteous attribute) He can’t become a human being (because that also contradicts his attributes like the All-knowing attribute).
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atlas
“I’m saying that having those two natures is ILLOGICAL itself. If you have both natures then that means you’re fully God and fully man and the rest of my argument is just a copy paste of what I said before which you just didn’t bother responding and all you did what repeat the same phrase “He has two natures”. I am arguing against that. I am saying that THAT is what is illogical.”
Okay. You still haven’t demonstrated how this is illogical. You have just asserted that it is illogical.
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Buahahahahaaha!!!!
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LOL!
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“There is nothing difficult about this – only an ignorant nomad like mohammed would find this simple concept incomprehensible and muslims are following his example.”
Aam no this is pretty much what all non-Christians think. Jews think this, atheists think this, etc etc etc.
I know you love bashing our Prophet and that it gives you wet dreams but there is no need to be this pathetic.
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Apperantly when I put forward the following argument
[[[
If you are going to say that he is 100% God and 100% man then that means he has to have all the attributes of God and all the attributes of man. I’m arguing that you can’t say that Jesus knows ALL (as he is allegedly God) and also ignorant (as he is human) and pretend that this isn’t breaking the laws of logic.
A human mind is limited in the amount of things it can know anyways. But knowledge is infinite. So this means there exists information X that the human mind doesn’t know. Obviously God’s mind does know because He is the All-Knower.
Question: Since Jesus is both, does he know information X or does he not?
]]]
All one needs to do is just to say “you asserted that it’s illogical” and poof it’s magically refuted.
When you have the guts to come with a real answer, just let me know.
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atlas
You have not argued anything at all – you have raised objections, asserted that these objections demonstrate that chritsian belief is illogical, and then claimed that you have made powerful arguments. Raising objections and asserting that these objections are good arguments is not a demonstration of the logic of your position.
You haven’t refuted anything. Jesus was the word incarnate who existed simultaneously as human and god. Two natures existing in the same person in different dimensions of existence. Your logic fails.
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Thanks for not answering me. I expected this cus that’s what you people always do. You can’t answer so you just start denying things instead of actually dealing with what I said. You’ve never answered my question and you never will.
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“Jesus was the word incarnate who existed simultaneously as human and god. Two natures existing in the same person in different dimensions of existence”
Thats like saying you are fully pig (oink oink) and fully human existing in human body yet your pig person has absolutely no mixture with your human person and both are separate and cannot experience each others FEELINGS.
God ” i feel hungry”
God ” i dont know how it feels to be hungry, my human nature never passes these feelings to me”
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atlas
I read your argument back to you for clarity – you raised an objection, then asserted that these objections show christian belief to be illogical. That is not an argument, nor is it a demonstration that christian belief is illogical.
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heath
You have completely failed to understand christian doctrine. Mohammed was ignorant of it as well – he thought that the trinity consisted of jesus, allah and mary.
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Are you that piglet joel?
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Just move on from him brother. He can’t answer and claims after that ‘you haven’t shown anything’.
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“You have completely failed to understand christian doctrine.”
Hahahaha you see what I mean bro? The “you don’t understand” card is played.
“Mohammed was ignorant of it as well – he thought that the trinity consisted of jesus, allah and mary”
Please show where the Qur’an states that the trinity is Allah, Jesus and Mary. I am expecting the pathetic “ow it says here don’t say three and somewhere else there are three mentioned so that PROOOOOOVES that the Qur’an says the trinity is Allah, Jesus and Mary”.
To bad for you that it doesn’t say it ANYWHERE.
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atlas
Great way to change the subject.
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“Great way to change the subject”
I’m not changing the subject. You brought up the trinity and how allegedly Muhammad misunderstood it and blablabla. Just because it was to someone else doesn’t mean I can’t respond to it.
Now since you’re still here care to answer my previous comment:
[[[
If you are going to say that he is 100% God and 100% man then that means he has to have all the attributes of God and all the attributes of man. I’m arguing that you can’t say that Jesus knows ALL (as he is allegedly God) and also ignorant (as he is human) and pretend that this isn’t breaking the laws of logic.
A human mind is limited in the amount of things it can know anyways. But knowledge is infinite. So this means there exists information X that the human mind doesn’t know. Obviously God’s mind does know because He is the All-Knower.
Question: Since Jesus is both, does he know information X or does he not?
]]]
Brian’s “response”
But but but but you didn’t show anything.
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—————————————–
mr.heathcliff said:
Royal pagan
you have jesus as “divine person” and “human person”
—————————————–
My response:
Ad-hominem duly ignored.
No, you got your theology wrong. Try again.
——————————————–
Mr heathcliff said:
IMAGINE the “divine person” says to the SAME person who is “human person”
“How does it feel like to have temptations”
NOW if they are the same person, how come the “divine person” does not know the feeling of temptation?
When the SAME person is going through temptations, what is the “divine person” doing?
———————————————
My response:
When you’ve cleared up your understanding of Christian theology so that you can properly represent it, come back to me.
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The best answer ‘YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND’. No one takes you people seriously when throw that pathetic out there.
Your jesus is one person who is devine and human. So heathcliff isn’t misrepresenting your “theology”.
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——————————————-
Brian stated:
“The contradiction is that allah – according to some muslims – cannot enter creation and hop around on his one leg, striving, and failing, to clap with his two right hands. Yet, it is claimed that allah is closer to humans than their jugular veins.”
——————————————-
Mr Heathcote then responded:
While yhwh was held in a womb, what experiences did he have ? It is no good to say your god is INSIDE something without being TAKEN over by the feelings. so yhwh fully experienced the feeling of being born?
——————————————-
My Response:
Mr Heathcote asserts that if God is inside something, then He must be fully taken over by feelings of that thing.
That leaves Mr. Heathcote with two possible positions, both having problems:
1. Allah is inside the universe.
2. Allah is not inside the universe.
If Mr Heathcote holds to position 1, then Allah is fully overtaken by the universe. In essence, creation trumps Allah’s divine nature. This is based upon Mr. Heathcote’s own assertions.
On the other hand, if Mr. Heathcote holds to position 2, then you have more problems:
1. Either Allah’s power is present in the universe
or
2. It is not present in the universe
If Allah’s power is present in the universe, yet Allah Himself is not present in the universe but outside of it, then Allah is stripped of the attribute of power. The power exists independent of Allah.
On the other hand, if it is not present in the universe, then any miracles which took place in the universe, e.g. the alleged splitting of the moon, cannot be attributed to Allah, since it was not His power that was present to cause the miracle in the first place.
Nor could it be said that it is Allah’s power destroyed armies, raised people from the dead, healed the sick, etc.
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Atlas the Mono Shin Worshiper said…
“Please show where the Qur’an states that the trinity is Allah, Jesus and Mary. ”
Hey Atlas please show us where the quran says anything about the “Trinity”. Come on show us that Trinity verse?
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“Hey Atlas please show us where the quran says anything about the “Trinity””
It doesn’t mention trinity explicitly anywhere which has nothing to do with my response to Brian’s accusation. He said that the trinity is said to be Allah, Jesus and Mary by the Qur’an but the Qur’an never says that. That’s it. How does your question in any way undermine my response to Brian? It doesn’t.
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“The person of jesus had two natures, not two persons. It is not that hard.”
break the person when he does things like created human. Join him together when he does things like super human. We know your pagan games.
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Is Allah a person Mr. Heathcliff?
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“otice Mr. Heathcliff’s strawman, implying that the Christian doctrine of incarnation implies a removal of Christ’s divine nature, when in fact the doctrine strongly upholds the 2 natures in Christ.”
your gods natures are like a plug and play game. You have the divine nature PERSONLESS when the same person is ignorant or doing things like created being.
1 Person two natures goes to sleep
if the divine nature is awake, where is the person?
IS THE nature a conscious person?
He also goes on to say “But what is a person WITHOUT NATURE? it is BEINGLESS”
“o Mr. Heathcliff, is Allah a person? Is he a being? Does he have a nature, many natures, or no nature?”
inherent jn ALlahs person exist power, knowledge, might , wisdom etc
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“Notice Mr. Heathcliff’s strawman, implying that the Christian doctrine of incarnation implies a removal of Christ’s divine nature, when in fact the doctrine strongly upholds the 2 natures in Christ.”
Simple test
1 person who is identified as fully god and fully man goes to sleep
is the nature which is AWAKE person or PERSONLESS?
if the person js asleep, then you plugged the person into human nature, but if the person js AWAKE due to divine nature and none MIX, how is it not two persons?
the divine person never receives experience from human person on how sleep feels like which means you have two persons.
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———————————-
Mr Heathcliff said:
“So Mr. Heathcliff, is Allah a person? Is he a being? Does he have a nature, many natures, or no nature?”
inherent jn ALlahs person exist power, knowledge, might , wisdom etc
———————————-
My Response:
Ok, you are a person with one nature. Is Allah a person with one nature?
———————————-
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Royalson did the Mono Shin worshiper just say that Allah is a person?
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The Logos incarnate is one person, two natures.
Both natures are always active.
The divine nature continues to do what it was doing before the incarnation.
How, no one knows except God himself.
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What was the person doing ? Does the nature exist without the person? are the powers operating while the person is plugged into the human nature and sleeping?
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————————————-
Mr. Heathcote said:
What was the person doing ? Does the nature exist without the person? are the powers operating while the person is plugged into the human nature and sleeping?
————————————-
My Response:
From the Christian perspective, the two natures of Christ exist in the person of Christ, while Christ sleeps, His divine nature still operates.
Now, as far as Allah is concerned, does He have a nature? If so, is it able to interact with creation?
————————————-
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Greetings Royal Son,
I haven’t seen you around since the long trinity thread.
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Greetings to you also Erasmus. I have been away for some time.
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” So here i have demonstrated why a god becoming finite is illogical”.
But not illogical enough to make it impossible for God.
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God knows WHO HE is and who HE isnt .God knows that he does not thirst or hunger like finite kristian pagans. God knows that He created everything and that He isnt created.God knows that He has full power and control over life and death. Here i have demonstrated why s god vecoming created is illogical nonsense
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God already knows when the day of judgement will occur because not only He bring it into existence, but he has power and control over it and His knowledge of it existed before it even came into existence so it is IMPOSSIBLE for God NOT TO KNOW just like it is IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD to give me His powers and punish him using HIS powers. Here i have demonstrated why god becoming created is IMPOSSIBLE
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“What was the person doing ? Does the nature exist without the person? are the powers operating while the person is plugged into the human nature and sleeping?”
No, there is no separation between nature and person in God.
Yes, the powers are operating when Jesus sleeps.
And when Jesus was dying, and when he was in the womb of Mary.
I don’t know how and I don’t need to know how so don’t ask me.
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So u r saying that there is person who is sleeping and not sleeping? So the sleeping person cannot pass the experience of sleeping to the NOT SLEEPING person? The powers are operating in the SLEEPING PERSON OR THE non sleeping person?
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“o, there is no separation between nature and person in God.
Yes, the powers are operating when Jesus sleeps.”
you just separated power and person. u have a sleeping god whose power operates without him.
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heath
allah is near your jugular this very second – how does he maintain his divine attributes whilst being in such close proximity to human flesh?
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Brian,
It is absolutely obvious that Qur’an 50:16 is not referring to physical proximity.
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The Christian commenters here have to misrepresent Islamic theology, in order to set up a straw man to attack Islam, all in order to defend their unbiblical Trinitarian beliefs (that Jesus himself never held) which force them to attack the traditional Abrahamic Unitarian/Monotheism which both religious Jews and Muslims adhere to.
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These types of conversations about incarnation serve to highlight how disconnected Trinitarian Christianity really is from traditional Abrahamic Unitarian/Monotheistic belief, and how theologically disjointed Christianity is from the two Abrahamic sister faiths.
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Ibn Wrote…
“The Christian commenters here have to misrepresent Islamic theology”
Ibn how so? You don’t believe that allah is closer to you than your jugular vein? Are you saying that’s not true? Please explain?
BTW you never did answer me on another thread regarding my distancing myself from violent behavior?
This is acceptable to you right…
“sympathizing with Muslims is not in line with my ethos”
and
“My aim is to please Jesus through my witnessing and not to air our dirty laundry in public.”
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Wake up,
I will not bother to address your mispreresentation of Islamic theology.
In regard to the other thread of conversation, you “shirked my question” by deflecting back onto Muslims as usual, rather than rebuking Christian fundamentalists, and you cowardly refuse to call out the extremists within your own ranks.
Your reverse example of “Sympathizing with Muslims” does not equate to the site administers desire not to Sympathize with Islamophobes, which I agree with. If you cannot separate between Christians and Islamophobes then that sounds like a personal problem for you, and a sad witness for the faith which you profess.
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“kay, which parts of his divine nature does allah leave behind when he draws near to your jugular? How can he be within time and space whilst maintaining his fully divine nature?”
Where does ALLAH SAY THAT he becomes an empty god like jesus to KNOW HEARTS AND MINDS??
And indeed We have created man, and We know whatever thoughts his inner self develops, and We are closer to him than (his) jugular vein.” (Quran 50:16)
notice it says God created man and God knows what his creation thinks.This is not like jesus who needed flesh body to hear the minds of the pharisees and holy spirit filling him .
“Also, jesus had two natures – one human, one divine. It isn’t hard – your demonstration fails.”
jesus is fully blind
Vs jesus is not blind
If the divine person has absolutely no experience in his DIVINE PERSON WHAT IT IS TO BE BLIND,THEN your brains have failed brain/brian.
if he creates a PERSON with blindness, THEN u dont have a blind created god u have a creates creature,not god. What is hard to understand??
EXPLAIN WHAT IT MEANS FOR divine person to fully have experience of blindness “in his human nature”
when you have fully god not having such experience.
? You have two separate things.
The fully god part is never taken over by blindness and the human part can never mix with the fully god part.
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Brain, does fully man give the feeling of sleep to fully god or does fully god wonder how sleep feels like when he watches fully man sleeping lol
When fully man wakes up, does fully god say “that was a nice sleep” or does fully god MINUS divine nature ,say “that was a nice sleep”
?
does fully man ever get to experience how fully god feels when he remains awake?
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heath
So how is it possible for your “exalted” god to be near your jugular – within creation – whilst maintaining his full divine powers? Humans would die if god drew near them in his full glory.
So answer the question – it isn’t hard – what parts of his divine nature does allah leave behind when he enters creation to be near your jugular? How does he maintain his full divine power whilst being in such close proximity with creatures?
This sounds a lot like modalism. Ironic.
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“So how is it possible for your “exalted” god to be near your jugular – within creation – whilst maintaining his full divine powers? Humans would die if god drew near them in his full glory.”
who said god has to be IN creation to KNOW MINDS AND HEARTS ?
On day of judgement humans will see GOd and one will see a POWERFUL GOD,right?
What makes you think that one would carry or house powerful God ?
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Brain, when fully god watches fully man sleeping, does he say “i dont know how sleep feels like coz im awake and dont sleep”
What does fully god do while he watching his MEAT PUPPET sleeping? When meat puppet wakes up, how does he fill in fully god about the feeling of sleep?
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“Humans would die if god drew near them in his full glory.”
BUT in hell they will continue to receive punishment and they will NOT die
will your god incarnate as ten headed pagan super human or will the humans face the full wrath of god meaning they will see a god with full power ?
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heath
allah’s is close to your jugular – how does he do it? Answer the question.
How come you are still alive when your god is able to come so close to you? Is allah a modalist god? Is he sometimes exalted and other times near your jugular?
Explain this mystery.
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You won’t get a muhammadan to admit their inconsistency. If they did, they’d have to stop denying the incarnation.
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Agreed Paulus. Good to see you here brother.
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Paulus
I know. You may have noticed that heath and atlas have run away from this question of how allah can be close to our jugulars yet maintain his full glory and power.
Allah has to change something about himself in order to make this possible, and he cannot exist in several forms at the same time. Allah, therefore, has to be a modalist god – he leaves his abode, leaving behind some of his divine qualities in order to be close to our jugulars.
Islam is modalism.
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Brian, interestingly sahih muslim states that allah descends every last third part of the night to the lowest heaven… but its always the last third part of the night somewhere on earth since its round and constantly spinning.
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And you cant get a Christian to admit THEIR inconsistency, if they did they would have to stop affirming the self-contradiction that is the incarnation.
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Hey Brian, Paulus and Erasmus – itd be good to get together for some fellowship. My email is royalson777@gmail.com
Much grace
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