Popular Muslim apologist, Br. Aqil Onque (otherwise known as Radush Shubuhaat) asks a very simple question. You can find the post here, publicly on Facebook.
What do you think?
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Blogging Theology 
Trinitarians say “three persons 1 God” and that one too is not in the Bible. God is 1 and God is 3 Persons/persons 1 God is totally different God.
Hindu, Rastafarians and most idol worshipers can also argue that their multi persons Gods are the real God.
“God is 1” is clearly in the Bible and He is the God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus etc. and that is Who the Muslims believe. It is better than 3 Persons/persons 1 God.
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When Christians innovated and adopted the unbiblical Trinitarian belief, they set themselves apart from the two Abrahamic Sister faiths which continue to maintain the traditional and pure Unitarian monotheistic belief in the absolute unique incomparable oneness of God.
When early Christians first began to exalt the status of Jesus after his ascension they set the stage for the continuing devolution and alteration of the teachings of the man they claim to follow. Rather than worshipping God as Jesus taught, Christians instead chose to worship Jesus and were then forced to develop and innovate doctrines like the Trinity, Original sin, Atonement by crucifixion, and faith based redemption, all in order to explain and justify why they choose to worship a man rather than the God he proclaimed.
Instead of fabricating the mythological Greco-Roman Man God and the associated Hellenized theology, it would have been so much easier for Christians today if their early church fathers would have simply satisfied themselves with the actual teachings of the historical Jesus – who believed in and taught what is essentially Islamic Monotheism.
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Intellect,
In fact Hindus do argue that their multiplicity of Gods and Goddesses are actually different manifestations, incarnations, personifications of the One God. This gives some indication of what Trinitarian argumentation can logically lead to and the misguidance and confusion that can result therein.
Polytheism was rampant in the ancient world, and Triune Gods were nothing unusual. What was revolutionary and new was pure Unitarianism and absolute Monotheism, which the Abrahamic faith gave to the world.
Jews, true believing Christians, and Muslims should be united in their monotheistic beliefs, and there should be no debate on the Unitarian nature of God.
The fact that there IS a debate with Jews/Muslims on one side and Christians on the other simply illustrates how far Christianity has fallen and strayed from the core Abrahamic belief.
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The Christian deity IS one though! One genus, called “Deus,” consists of one instance each of its three species: “D. pater,” “D. filius,” and “D. spiritussanctus.”
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Many polytheist religions have some unitarianist basis. As Ibn Issam mentioned in Hinduism all gods are in fact seen as a manifestation of one entity. In the different pantheist beliefs everything in nature is seen as a manifestation of only one entity. That is also what some heretics understand under Wahdat al-Wujud.
As for Christians, Muslims have to understand two aspects of Trinity. One is this aspect about God having different forms. This makes “God one of tree” as the Qur’an says. Many idiots say that this is a wrong understanding of the Trinity. But the Father has the role of God in Islam and the Old Testament. Therefore this statement is absolutely legit.
The second aspect is God taking the form of a human. The Qur’an mentions this immediately after “one of tree” with “God is the Messiah”. Muslims should focus on this aspect rather than the first. God cannot be something that changes and lives in time like a human. This is much easier to explain than to criticise the complicated doctrines.
Unfortunately, Tabek does not agree with this. He believes that Christians are correct believers.
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More lies about a scholar. You need to quit this unhealthy obsession. And thanks for wasting a lesson on my own former religion and basic `aqīdah 👍
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We know Christians say that God is One (that much we can agree on), but as you know it is Trinitarian doctrine that is questionable.
I do not mean to imply that all Christians are polytheist, however, I think that Trinitarianism is definitely born out of ancient polytheistic belief (and it that regard it is nothing new or revolutionary), and in its current manifestation, in which it is mixed with Abrahamic faith beliefs, the unbiblical Christian doctrine of the Trinity, at the very least, borderlines on polytheism, and therefore, it becomes very easy for many Christians who don’t fully understand the creed to fall into the misguidance of actually practicing polytheism. Such a danger does not exist in Islamic orthodoxy.
I have talked to many Christians who don’t understand or apply the doctrine correctly. Ultimately it is very subjective, as it is only the individual Christian who knows whether his true intention is to worship the One true God of Abraham (albeit in Trinitarian form), or if he is indeed worshipping something else entirely (Jesus, Mary, Holy spirit, Saint, Idol, Love, Pope, three separate persons, or whatever it may be, etc.).
Therefore, while we can argue and debate on the nature of God (Unitarian vs. Trinitarian), it is best to leave the final judgement to Allah.
May Allah Guide whom he wills into the clear sighted path of pure and unadulterated Islamic Monotheism.
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Guys I was being sarcastic… their god is a creature of their own minds.
…nevermind.
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Actually his student has defended the Trinity as being “OK”. So it’s not even an exaggeration from me.
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Prove it.
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Abu Talhah,
“….their god is a creature of their own minds.” – a very succinct statement.
Don’t worry, I understood you and I enjoy your sarcasm!
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Oh, good. Thanks, bro. It’s the only possible way the wording of what their theology claims isn’t a contradiction. But if they accept that, a whole new set of problems arises.
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abu t
“The Christian deity IS one though! One genus, called “Deus,” consists of one instance each of its three species: “D. pater,” “D. filius,” and “D. spiritussanctus.””
Different species do not share the same essence. Better to think of it more in terms of god’s existence throughout various dimensions.
Allh is more of a creature – he is one, like his creatures are one. More like a spider that has lost some of its limbs.
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I feel like I’m being punked. Is this reply a joke?
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I feel like you don;t have a reply of substance and are hiding behind pompous self-importance to avoid answering.
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That’s nice. Listen, the only “unique” thing about your deity is that it’s the only logically impossible contradiction that a staggering number of people insist actually exists. It’s uniquely silly. Your comments regarding Islamic theology don’t warrant response, as they themselves were lacking in substance.
And check out the timber in thine own eye with that “pompous self-importance” jab, with your “what Muslims don’t understand blah blah” comments. The limits of being created prevent us from fully encompassing Allāh ﷻ. Your deity, on the other hand, is just an absurd contrivance – nobody understands it, not even Christians.
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“Different species do not share the same essence. Better to think of it more in terms of god’s existence throughout various dimensions.”
the 3 goat worshipper pagan has spoken again
so you have the son who is ANOTHER person and is not his father.
what makes the father the father the son DOES not have
what makes the son the son, the father does not have
EACH persons FULLY experiences BEING god.
each person DOES not need the other to be god SINCE it is ALREADY existing as “fully god”
we call this 3 gods . “one ” is just poetic bullshite.
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One essence, three “persons” is. Not. Possible. If it is, then so are square circles. My system of taxonomozing their deity is the only one that brings the whole affair down to the realm of non-contradiction. Shame about the whole host of new problems it brings.
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brain, have you figured out who lost his life and experience life fleeting?
was it the “immortal divine person”
or the created human person
LOL
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abu t
That is an impressive block of assertion. Less impressive on the substance though.
Like I say, the OT describes a being that is beyond our comprehension who exists in more than one place at the same time.
If you are trying to claim that we can dispute god’s essence based on what you think are “logical” grounds, then I invite you “logically” prove that islam is the truth without referring to scripture.
What reasoning can you present solely from logic that touching your nose to the ground and ritual washing is pleasing to a god, or that your particular incorrect version of a god is impressed with this superstitious behavior?
I await your response with baited breath.
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Logic actually dictates reference to revelation, you silly billy. Sorry, but another poor attempt on your part. Especially the bit where you appealed to your own scripture right before trying to bar any appeal to mine. Did you think nobody would notice? Just… top marks for that one, lad.
Your theology is still built around a contradiction. Not my problem.
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abu t
“One essence, three “persons” is. Not. Possible. If it is, then so are square circles.”
Really? Allah being incapable of entering creation is like him being capable of making a rock so big he can’t lift it. Square circles indeed.
“My system of taxonomozing their deity is the only one that brings the whole affair down to the realm of non-contradiction. ”
Your system is silly, yet, unsurprisingly, pompously self-important.
The law of non-contradiction falls apart beyond descriptions of the most simple of objects.
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Wow, you got the wrong end of that embarrassingly simple stick. Try again. Or don’t. Please don’t.
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Brian,
“Better to think of it more in terms of god’s existence throughout various dimensions.”
Christians claim that Jesus is Fully God/Fully Human.
When Jesus existed in our dimension, who was in control of the other dimensions? Did your God not exist in all other dimensions when he incarnated into the body of Jesus here in our dimension?
You just admitted that your God did not exist eternally in all realities.
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abu t
Excellent deflection – but again, no substance.
Please show me the logical argument that proves touching your nose to the ground and washing parts of your body in a specific order is something that an eternal being who created you would want us to do.
Don’t be shy. Show us your reasoning skills.No scripture though.
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Try reading my “deflection” again. Slowly.
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abu t
“Wow, you got the wrong end of that embarrassingly simple stick. Try again. Or don’t. Please don’t.”
Try what? Allah has lost the key to his creation and can’t get in – he has made a rock so big he can’t lift it.
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Brian,
You are engaging in the fallacy of false equivalence. Both Christianity and Islam require the scriptures to support ritual and practice, etc. The nature of God can be argued either on the basis of scripture OR pure logic.
Also you said that, “OT describes a being that is beyond our comprehension who exists in more than one place at the same time.” This is in agreement with Islamic theology. However if you believe that God incarnated into the body of Jesus who was “Fully God/Fully Human” then you cannot conclude that your understanding of God allows for his existence in all realities and throughout all dimensions as you claim.
Thus the Islamic understanding is superiour as it does allow for Gods to exist eternally in all in all realities and throughout all dimensions.
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abu t
Re-read it and it still reeks of pompous self-importance, but little substance. Still waiting for you to get past the bare assertions of logic and for you to actually exhibit some. You can’t fool all the people all the time.
What logical arguments have you made to convince yourself that touching your nose to the ground and ritual washing is exactly what a god who is so transcendent would want us to do? Come on now, this should easy for someone of your intellectual prowess.
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ibn
Actually, I don;t think I am.
Abu T seems to want to reject plural descriptions of go in the bible in favour of a solely logical argument. When I ask him to apply this approach to muslim rituals he deflects and runs away.
“if you believe that God incarnated into the body of Jesus who was “Fully God/Fully Human” then you cannot conclude that your understanding of God allows for his existence in all realities and throughout all dimensions as you claim.”
That’s exactly what it allows for – god exists in multiple forms at the same time. The bible describes jesus as divine, the father as divine and the HS as divine.But god is one.
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Brian,
Your own Christian philosophers Descartes and Aquinas have answered the paradox of the stone in two different ways that do not compromise the omnipotence of God. These arguments also support the Islamic view as well.
In regard to entering Creation, the real question is WHY would an omnipotent, omniscient, eternal God ever have any such need to enter creation in the first place? The fact that in your understanding God needed to enter into creation in order to “experience human life” and in order to forgive sin, simply demonstrates that such a God is weak and neither omnipotent, omniscient, or even eternally existing in all dimensions.
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ibn
WHo says that god “needs” to enter creation. That is a strawman.
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A “god” that enters creation is not God, just as a “god” who can’t lift a rock isn’t God. But a Brian who asks stupid questions like that and seems to sincerely think he’s being clever is you. This is ridiculous and Ibn Isam clearly has the patience I lack.
Have a good’n.
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Brian,
It is not a strawman. It is a valid question.
WHY does a omnipotent, omniscient, and eternally existing NEED to enter creation?
Our God does not need to enter creation, because he is omnipotent, omniscient, and eternally existing in all dimensions. Therefore, he does not need to enter creation in order to experience human life, or to forgive sins by human blood sacrifice, when he can forgive sin through the simple act of offering his merciful forgiveness to those who humble themselves in repentance.
This is a serious point for you and all Christians to consider.
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Christians say that God NEEDED to enter creation.
Otherwise he would not have known how to relate with and understand human existence, and he would not have been able to forgive sin through the mechanism of blood sacrifice of himself (fully God/Fully Human) on the cross.
Muslims disagree and say that Allah is free from all need.
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QUOTE :
Brian,
“Better to think of it more in terms of god’s existence throughout various dimensions.”
Christians claim that Jesus is Fully God/Fully Human.
When Jesus existed in our dimension, who was in control of the other dimensions? Did your God not exist in all other dimensions when he incarnated into the body of Jesus here in our dimension?
You just admitted that your God did not exist eternally in all realities.
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i am thinking that the god brain worship has to have CREATED existences which were all CO-ETERNAL with the other persons in trinity, otherwise this god is unable to do ANYTHING without his DIFFERENT versions, which implies that those VERSIONS must have been with this god co-eternally
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“That’s exactly what it allows for – god exists in multiple forms at the same time. The bible describes jesus as divine, the father as divine and the HS as divine.But god is one.”
you see what i mean ibn? those VERSIONS/forms/existences NEED to be CO-ETERNAL with this pagan god OTHERWISE this god can’t do anything. it is no surprise they will be ready to worship form because they really think that it is god.
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March 30, 2018 • 3:17 pm
Christians say that God NEEDED to enter creation.
Otherwise he would not have known how to relate with and understand human existence, and he would not have been able to forgive sin through the mechanism of blood sacrifice of himself (fully God/Fully Human) on the cross.
Muslims disagree and say that Allah is free from all need.
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that’s the point. those CREATED versions have to be INFINITE and co-eternal otherwise this god is FAR and unknown and undiscoverable.
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Mr Heathcliff,
Exactly my point. We know that the Christian Doctrine of Trinity causes all sorts of logical problems and conundrums. But Brian’s own understanding does not lead to more clarity, it just creates even worse problems and adds to the confusion.
The Trinity is illogical and no amount of logic will improve upon something that is a contradiction to begin with.
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Too bad he thinks logic has to be used to prove God AND salāh… as if revelation is the only way a person is able to determine the Creator is One.
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Two answers to the Paradox of the Stone:
http://www.existence-of-god.com/paradox-of-the-stone.html
Christians should really stop using this argument against Islamic theology, as it cuts both ways. As we see in the above article, there are satisfying answers that address the question in ways that are satisfying to any believer in God…..including Muslims.
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Abu Talhah,
“…he thinks logic has to be used to prove God AND salāh… as if revelation is the only way a person is able to determine the Creator is One.”
Exactly why I consider his remark on this point to be a Fallacy of False Equivalence.
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Exactly why you’re right. Maybe he can at least concede that.
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abu T
“Too bad he thinks logic has to be used to prove God AND salāh… as if revelation is the only way a person is able to determine the Creator is One.”
A clear illustration of why you are so squirmy and confused.
You are the one who thinks we should ignore bible scripture verses that clearly describe god in plural terms. Are you even thinking before you write?
In the case of the trinity you are insisting on relying solely on logic – or so you claim. You have thrown big “scary” words like “law of non-contradiction” without giving any indication that you know what you are talking about. Yet, when asked to apply the same approach to silly rituals like washing body parts in a specific order, or touching your nose to the ground to prove solely through logic that this is what an infinite god would want, you run away in a pompous huff.
Obviously, you don;t understand the logical terms you are using – else you would have done more than merely make pompous assertions and actually prove your point.
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As usual, I don’t know where to begin; your stupidity has left me reeling.
I’ll have to leave it to Ibn Issam and his saintly patience ما شاء الله again. But I will just comment that your horrendous “understanding” of scripture (ask a Jew) isn’t revelation. You should definitely ignore that. Yeah. Actual revelation doesn’t fly in the face of sound reason like your theology does.
None of anything you say is substantial and this is getting beyond a joke.
And you’re the one that threw out the term “law of non-contradiction,” not me. Silly billy. And yes, you are very much committing a false equivalency fallacy with your stupid demand.
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ibn
“Two answers to the Paradox of the Stone…..”
Seriously? These arguments work against islam – it is not logically incoherent for god to enter his creation. Muslims are the ones who claim that allah cannot enter his own creation – you are the ones who claim that allah can make a stone too heavy for him to lift.
You have got yourself in a complete bind. You are very confused my friend.
Unsurprisingly, abu is impressed with your arguments. Shows how much logic he actually utilizes in his thinking.
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What is it about “entering creation” to you that doesn’t contradict the nature of God. Please just explain precisely what you mean by the phrase “entering creation.”
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Brian,
It seems like you just throw mud at the wall in the hope that something will stick.
We never said Allah CANNOT do anything. I believe that Allah is capable of doing all things (Qur’an 65:12)……But we also believe that Allah is free of all need, and as I explained above there is clearly no need for Allah to enter into his creation. It is not that he CANNOT but rather that he WOULD NOT.
Any Paradox of the stone arguments are simply distraction and deflection on your part. Such arguments have been addressed and sufficient, acceptable answers are available
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“You have got yourself in a complete bind. You are very confused my friend.”
when you worship your god and you SEPARATE the persons as father, son and ghost, do you feel like a polytheist? it is you in the bind.
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“What is it about “entering creation” to you that doesn’t contradict the nature of God. Please just explain precisely what you mean by the phrase “entering creation.”
sir, you will never get an explanation
if i asked this pagan , does your god NEED to enter hell/his own punishment to punish creature , he will probably say yes
if i say, does he feel his own wrath , he will say, god does not change while he is punishing, he remains separate from change. so then what does it even mean “enters his own creation”
god REMAINS SEPARATE from the change time and space brings.
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Let’s see what he has to say though.
🍿
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If God was to fully enter creation as Brian and Christians propose, then our world, reality, possibly even dimension would likely implode under the extreme weight of the full power and might of God. This can be supported by the fact that when God revealed ONLY a PORTION of his Glory to Moses the mountain crumbled:
“When the Lord manifested His Glory to the mountain, He turned it into dust and Moses fell down upon his face senseless. After regaining his senses, Moses said, “Lord, You are all Holy. I repent for what I asked you to do and I am the first to believe in You.” (Qur’an 7:143)
Also the following:
“Had We sent down this Quran on a mountain, you would have seen it humbled and rent asunder for fear of God.” (Qur’an 59:21)
If a mountain would be “rent asunder” by only the revelation of Qur’an and the “fear” of God (not by God himself) then imagine the full force of God’s entirety entering Creation. The entire world would be shaken if not rent asunder.
The fact that Jesus came and went without causing any physical disturbance in the created reality serves to prove that he cannot by any stretch of imagination be considered to be God himself.
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There is no “entering.” It’s not a thing. The same thing would happen if I measured the four angles inside a circle (might the universe implode? Nah, mate). But I honestly wanted to know what exactly Bri-bri means.
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abu t
“None of anything you say is substantial and this is getting beyond a joke.”
Right back at you sweetheart.
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😘
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ibn
“We never said Allah CANNOT do anything. I believe that Allah is capable of doing all things (Qur’an 65:12)……But we also believe that Allah is free of all need, and as I explained above there is clearly no need for Allah to enter into his creation. It is not that he CANNOT but rather that he WOULD NOT.
Any Paradox of the stone arguments are simply distraction and deflection on your part. Such arguments have been addressed and sufficient, acceptable answers are available”
Well you changed your tune.
Thanks for being the expert on how your transcendent allah would behave.
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ibn
“If God was to fully enter creation as Brian and Christians propose, then our world, reality, possibly even dimension would likely implode under the extreme weight of the full power and might of God. ”
You are all kinds of confused. The incarnated word of god was fully human and not revealed in his full glory. This is very, very basic christian theology.
Your claim is that allah cannot control himself – like a force of nature that has little agency.
Also, the quran has no authority to me, quoting it sheds no light on any christian doctrine.
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abu
“There is no “entering.” It’s not a thing.”
Wut? What are you even talking about? I think you are trying to be too clever for your own good.
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Wasn’t talking to you, Bri-bri. Now, would you care to tell us precisely what you mean by God “entering” creation?
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”
Your claim is that allah cannot control himself – like a force of nature that has little agency.”
last week :
”
Humans would die if god drew near them in his full glory”
so god would be like one who is unable to control himself in his full glory lol?
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abu t
“Wasn’t talking to you, Bri-bri. Now, would you care to tell us precisely what you mean by God “entering” creation?”
Yes, as soon as you support all of your pompous assertions with logical and reasoned arguments, I’ll explain anything you want.
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Oh, so you’re taking your ball and going home (since you know exposition with any semblance of precision will land you up a creek). Remember to pick your dummy back up off the floor before you go.
My “assertions” are all very simple, but maybe you can give me an example of one that you failed to grasp and need the dots connected on.
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Brian,
There is no change of tune.
“The incarnated word of god was fully human and not revealed in his full glory. This is very, very basic Christian theology.”
Just as you do not recognize the authority of the Qur’an, neither do I recognize the authority of Christian doctrinal theology. But just going on what Christians claim: Jesus was Fully God/Fully Human – Which logically means that God revealed himself FULLY in his FULL glory……….
……..and nothing happened.
Ergo, Jesus is not God.
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Brian,
“Your claim is that allah cannot control himself – like a force of nature that has little agency.”
On the contrary, the fact that Allah CHOOSES not to enter into creation indicates great agency and control over himself, as well as over all creation.
In your understanding, God was not omniscient and needed to know what it was like to be a human, and he COULD NOT CONTROL his urge to incarnate into a human body and experience even the lowliest of human bodily functions. Likewise, he was not Omnipotent and able to forgive sin by his mercy to those who turn to him in repentance, and instead he COULD NOT CONTROL his urge to enter creation, come to earth and sacrifice himself on the cross to forgive sins.
The doctrine of incarnation diminishes the omnipotent and omniscient power of God, and portrays him as a being with little agency that is unable to control his own senseless urges.
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“In your understanding, God was not omniscient and needed to know what it was like to be a human, and he COULD NOT CONTROL his urge to incarnate into a human body and experience even the lowliest of human bodily functions. Likewise, he was not Omnipotent and able to forgive sin by his mercy to those who turn to him in repentance, and instead he COULD NOT CONTROL his urge to enter creation, come to earth and sacrifice himself on the cross to forgive sins.
The doctrine of incarnation diminishes the omnipotent and omniscient power of God, and portrays him as a being with little agency that is unable to control his own senseless urges.”
////////
The Christian solution to this question is to lower God’s stature amongst men, to make Him one of us, an idea that has pervaded the thoughts of mankind spanning more than a millennia. To the Graeco-Romans, humans shared divinity with God as is seen with Hercules and Apollonius, with the Hindus, divinity also shared humanity as is seen in the appearance of a “Murti”. Christianity finds this in the form of Jesus. This idea is not new, and as was explicated upon recently, the Jesus of Christianity finds its metaphysical basis in Aristotelian thought. Instead of us coming closer to God, God came closer to us.
Islam on the other hand offers a much more robust proposition. God is not one of us. We are not gods. God is not arrogant such that He has to “lower” Himself and “humble” Himself. Rather, we accept an unassailable axiom, that we are beholden to God and He needs no change. To come closer to God, it is our humanity that needs to be reigned in, our desires and sins, our evil actions that need to submit to the authority to the ultimate judge and jury, God and God alone. We are not in competition with God, we are not rivals to His divinity, we are and never will be equals. The problem is not with God misunderstanding humanity or having a need to manifest Himself in our likeness, that is the arrogance of man to assume the fault is with God, such that the solution is that He needs to be more like us!
It is ironic that both Muslims and Christians agree that the downfall of Satan/ Iblees was due to his arrogance, that he would not submit to God’s authority. Yet born out of that fall was the belief of Christians that the solution for our world is that God should be one of us, the direct opposite of submission, the sin that fell Satan himself. As the Qur’an then says:
https://callingchristians.com/2018/01/31/sin-pride-and-christianity/
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This “Brian” character sounds a lot like Joel/Coco from a few months ago. You guys remember Joel?
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Isn’t Joel a girl? Been wondering since months…
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Let’s stop being Protestants. Stop adhering to sola scriptura.
It is traditional that allows us to say that “God is three”.
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There is no difference between Protestants and Catholics in regard to the nature of God, both believe in the Trinity.
It is remarkable how the Protestant reform rejected the trappings of Catholicism but still kept most of the basic creedal errors of the Catholic Church. They had a great opportunity to reject the mythologized Jesus of Greco Roman belief, and they could have returned to a more pure Unitarian Monotheism and law based belief based on the actual teachings of the true historic Jesus, but sadly they missed the opportunity.
I wonder if Luther and early protestants would have done things differently if they had understood the findings of modern NT Historical textual criticism?
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Poor muslims just can’t grasp the simple concept of god being so unlike his creatures in his oneness. God is not one like his creatures.Islam’s god is.
Unfortunately, the bible recounts many instances where god is described in plural terms. God being one does not counter the concept of his plurality.
It is not that difficult guys.
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Talk about pompous self-importance. Get real.
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Poor Christians just can’t grasp the simple concept that God is UNIQUE in his absolute Oneness in a way that we do not comprehend. Muslims do not believe that God is one like his creatures, but that “Unto him there is no equivalent” Qur’an 112:4 This precludes any similarity whatsoever to his creation.
Unfortunately, Christians believe their god is one in three like an egg, pencil, or H20….and yet they claim that he is unlike his creation.
It’s not that difficult Brian.
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ibn
that is special pleading.
If your allah is one, then he is exactly like his creatures. Logic remember?
You are saying that allah is one but not really. Which is it? Abu T wants us to dispense with scripture to support his contentions. Let;s do the same with allah?
Creatures are unitarian, allah is unitarian, allah is a creature, ergo.
Law of non-contradiction.
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Brian,
You are also engaging in special pleading as well when you say that, “OT describes a being that is beyond our comprehension.” The same description of “a being that is beyond our comprehension” applies to Islamic concept of the nature of God.
You are saying that God is three…but not really.
Things in creation are triune, (Egg, pencil, H20) ergo your God is like unto creation.
If you are not willing to admit that “beyond our comprehension” applies to a Unitarian understanding of God, then we are not required to agree that the same applies to a Trinitarian understanding. And around we go.
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Brian
Creatures are unitarian, allah is unitarian, allah is a creature, ergo.
I say;
Creatures are not unitarian but MANY. A GOAT is not created as ONLY ONE GOAT WHO IS ALONE BUT MANY GOATS. GOATS CAN BE COUNTED AS 3 GOATS AND BE = TRINITY. BUT THERE IS NO ONE GOAT ON EARTH BUT MANY GOATS.
Allah, Allaha, Elah, Eloi etc. as Jesus called his God is ONE God and cannot be counted as 2,3,4,5 etc. Trinitarian God is counted more than 1 i.e. God the Son, God the Father and God the Holy Spirit, so he is not God.
Thanks.
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Brian’s logical argument fails because he does not apply incomprehensibility to the Unitarian understanding of God, in the same way that he does for his Trinitarian understanding. Therefore, his own logical argument is biased by his own false beliefs.
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He’s also committing a gigantic false equivalency fallacy in comparing created and Creator when he talks about the oneness of Allāh ﷻ. Oh well.
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Abu Talhah,
Exactly. Brian only compares created and creator when he attacks Islamic ontological understandings of God’s nature, but does not apply same standards to his own Trinitarian beliefs, hence his own double standard and bias is laid bare.
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?
”
God being one does not counter the concept of his plurality.”
so your god is PLURAL parts of one?
if each person is FULLY existing as god, then you have 3 gods. 3 triplets. 3 persons fully EXPERIENCING being yhwh IN its SINGULARITY .
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ibn
“Brian’s logical argument fails because he does not apply incomprehensibility to the Unitarian understanding of God, in the same way that he does for his Trinitarian understanding. ”
More special pleading.
Divine incomprehensibility is implicit in the bible’s pluralistic descriptions of the singular being of god. Such a being cannot be described adequately in any human language. The fact that muslims believe that they can describe such a being by asserting hos oneness diminishes his incomprehensibility.
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Brian,
You cry special pleading and then you excuse your own special pleading.
Divine incomprehensibility is implicit in Qur’an 112:4 “Unto him there is no equivalent” which precludes any similarity whatsoever to his creation.
God’s (incomprehensible) Unitarian nature is affirmed throughout the Qur’an. God is UNIQUE in his absolute Oneness in a way that we do not understand, and this explanation in no way diminishes his incomprehensibility.
The Trinitarian “mystery” diminishes incomprehensibility when one tries to explain it in comparison with egg, h20, pencil, but much worse, it causes a logical conundrum when you attempt to explain such an impossible contradiction logically.
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ibn
“God’s (incomprehensible) Unitarian nature is affirmed throughout the Qur’an. God is UNIQUE in his absolute Oneness in a way that we do not understand, and this explanation in no way diminishes his incomprehensibility.”
Nonsense. Don;t just say it, demonstrate it. I see no uniqueness in any unitarian being. All creatures are unitarian,allah is unitarian, allah is a creature, ergo.
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Brian,
“Nonsense. Don;t just say it, demonstrate it. I see no uniqueness in any unitarian being. All creatures are unitarian,allah is unitarian, allah is a creature, ergo”
I see you have once again resorted to this comically terrible use of deductive reasoning.
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if each person in trinity is one person, then each person is unitarian in its person . each person is a creature. .
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“God is not one like his creatures.Islam’s god is.”
your god is composite like creature is composite you shoddy pagan .
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Brian,
Again you accuse others of special pleading while you indulge in it gratuitously.
Simply saying that YOU don’t see the uniqueness in a Unitarian God does not prove anything, nor does it convince anyone.
You are really shooting yourself in the foot with these types of arguments. Because you are arguing that there is nothing unique about the OT monotheistic God of the Abrahamic faith which the Jews believe in. By taking such a position Christians set themselves in opposition to traditional Abrahamic beliefs about the nature of God, which only highlights the distortion, disconnect and disjointed nature of innovated man made Christian doctrine in comparison. with the two branches of the Abrahamic faith family – Jews and Muslims.
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Lets look closer at Brian’s argument.
He claims that there is nothing unique about the Unitarian God (The Father in OT jargon) as understood by Muslims.
Therefore by the same logic, there is also nothing Unique about the OT monotheistic God (The Father) of the Abrahamic faith as understood by the Jews – subsequently if there is nothing unique about the OT Unitarian God, then again, by the same logic there is also nothing unique about the NT Trinitarian God who is supposedly one and THE SAME as the OT Unitarian God The Father….but not really. Why? because its a “mystery!!!”
What an illogical, confusing contradictory mess.
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“Your god is one like his creatures” argument is without a doubt one of the most (if not the most) stupid ‘arguments’ I have EVER heard.
Then I can as easily say:
The Father is one like his creatures too.
The Son is one like his creatures too.
The HS is one like his creatures too.
But you’ll just ignore that and jump right back to your trinity and pretend as if you’re actually refuting anything.
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atlas
“Then I can as easily say:
The Father is one like his creatures too.
The Son is one like his creatures too.
The HS is one like his creatures too.”
You could easily say anything, but you would be presenting a strawman.
The father, son and holy spirit are a single being with three seats of consciousness. No creature is like that. This is basic christian belief – why can;t you guys engage honestly?
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umar
“I see you have once again resorted to this comically terrible use of deductive reasoning.”
Assertion – no substance.Demonstrate my error……
I’ve got more bad news for you.
A true god shares no attributes with created beings
Allah’s attribute of oneness is shared with creatures
Allah is not a true god.
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How is being a particular arrangement of elementary particles (hardly unique, is it) the same as being the Uncreated Creator, Necessary Existent?
Mate, you’re just not cut out for this. Go back to some Aquinas or something (which you won’t because you’re obviously not sincere), this stuff from you is a travesty. Just abysmal.
“A true god shares no attributes with created beings”
You mean like oh, I dunno, a human nature?
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ibn
“Therefore by the same logic, there is also nothing Unique about the OT monotheistic God (The Father) of the Abrahamic faith as understood by the Jews – subsequently if there is nothing unique about the OT Unitarian God, then again, by the same logic there is also nothing unique about the NT Trinitarian God'”
The OT monotheistic god is described in plural terms on many occasions – completely in line with the trinity.
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“The father, son and holy spirit are a single being with three seats of consciousness”
Where in the Bible does it state “father, son and holy spirit are a single being” ? And how can you call them single being when there are 3 different consciousness ?
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“The father, son and holy spirit are a single being with three seats of consciousness. No creature is like that. This is basic christian belief – why can;t you guys engage honestly?”
in other words the father is a disabled thing which has consciousness?
the son exists as a consciousness , but it is not complete BEING
the ghost exists as consciousness , but it is not complete being
you have disabled/handicapped things co-existing with each other
the MOMENT you say that one of those consciousnesses has FULL experience of the “one being” /central god, you admitted that EAch INDIVIDUAL IS UNITARIAN .
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“The father, son and holy spirit are a single being with three seats of consciousness”
in other words
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😂😂😂
Or Cerberus, the thee-headed dog. Three heads, three seats of consciousness. One dog. Sucks when the heads disagree though.
(Insert special pleading)
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“You could easily say anything, but you would be presenting a strawman.
The father, son and holy spirit are a single being with three seats of consciousness. No creature is like that. This is basic christian belief – why can;t you guys engage honestly?”
O dear o dear.
If you look at just the Father alone then He is unitarian. You took all three of them and used the “three seats of consciousness” (whatever the hell that means) to justify your bs. I knew you would do that and the sad thing is, is that I even said that in my previous comment.
You also go to ANOTHER attribute (consciousness) to say that the Father’s oneness is different from us.
So if I said that Allah’s oneness is uncreated (which is another attribute) and therefore different from ours you would be ok with that right? Of course you wont cus that’s called being intellectually honest and crosstians don’t have that quality.
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“The father, son and holy spirit are a single being with three seats of consciousness”
that is like you, your daughter and your father are a single being and whenever you talk, we see only 1 speaker, one actor….
so how are we to know when your daughter spoke, when you spoke and when your father spoke?
you are forced to believe in unitarian model.
thats why james white says that EACH person DOES its OWN role , so each person is by itself unitarian , the word “one” is just poetical bullshit.
are you heretic christian by any change?
james white believes each person KNOWS that it isn’t the other person
white believes that each person, by itself exists as a role player.
white believes that his nonsensical pagan beliefs have god existing as 3 different things and they are magically all “one”
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abu t
“How is being a particular arrangement of elementary particles (hardly unique, is it) the same as being the Uncreated Creator, Necessary Existent?”
Really? Seriously? There are creatures that exist in both space and time and outside of it, in flesh and spirit simultaneously? Please tell……
“You mean like oh, I dunno, a human nature?”
Why is it so hard for you to understand? The Lord has hardened your heart, Pharaoh..
Jesus’ human nature was sinless, unlike any other human. And he was also 100% god, unlike other humans.
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So you’ve got nothing. As usual. Troll.
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tiyaan
“Where in the Bible does it state “father, son and holy spirit are a single being” ? And how can you call them single being when there are 3 different consciousness ?”
Jesus, the father, and the spirit are all described as god – and there is one god, not three.
I don’t claim to know how it is possible that three seats of consciousness can exist as a single being, but that is one of the reasons I reject islam’s certainty about god. If you are certain in your understanding of god, you don’t worship god. The true god is beyond all comprehension and islam misses the point about yahweh by focusing on his triune nature.
Yahweh reveals his loving nature, allah reveals that he is one. Well, I’m one too! Hardly anything to feel great about.
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atlas
“If you look at just the Father alone then He is unitarian.”
I think you are confused.
You have just said that the father aspect of the triune god is unitarian – that is silly. you have asserted the unitarianism when you should be proving your point. Fallacy of circularity.
“You also go to ANOTHER attribute (consciousness) to say that the Father’s oneness is different from us.”
I did no such thing. The true god’s oneness is unique in its plurality
Answer this…..
A true god shares no attributes with created beings
Allah’s attribute of oneness is shared with creatures
Allah is not a true god.
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“Jesus, the father, and the spirit are all described as god – and there is one god, not three.”
so jesus is a PART of god
father is a part of god
ghost is a part of god
you have 3 parts.
if ALL 3 = 1 god, then jesus is simply a part.
”
I don’t claim to know how it is possible that three seats of consciousness can exist as a single being,”
why not? you have one OF them from a group of there currently filling you. do you have a unitarian person in you, or the entire being of god in you ?
“Yahweh reveals his loving nature, allah reveals that he is one. ”
yhwh reveals that he transfers sins and punishes himself because you are a spiritual trashy human. that is loving?
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“Jesus, the father, and the spirit are all described as god – and there is one god, not three.”
so he wants to DUMP “god” on ALL 3 SINGULAR persons
currently one from a GROUP of 3 is filling you, one from a group of 3 became man, one from a group of 3 COMMANDS the other one. you have a company of beings existing with each other. the “god” you worship is SIMPLY a housing or a host.
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“Jesus’ human nature was sinless, unlike any other human. And he was also 100% god, unlike other humans.”
jesus said he wasn’t sinless
jesus said he has a god thats like all other humans. actually your god PRAYED through the flesh, which means your god HAS a god.
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[[[
“If you look at just the Father alone then He is unitarian.”
I think you are confused.
You have just said that the father aspect of the triune god is unitarian – that is silly. you have asserted the unitarianism when you should be proving your point. Fallacy of circularity.
]]]
“You have just said that the father aspect of the triune god is unitarian – that is silly. you have asserted the unitarianism when you should be proving your point. Fallacy of circularity.”
????
Your pagan belief says that the trinity consists of three persons. The Father is one person, so is the Son and the HS. Being unitarian means to be ONE person. So yea the Father is ONE person.
LOL! Teaching a xtian the basics of his religion.
So how does HIS oneness differ from ours?
I ask you how the Father’s oneness is different from ours and you go back to your multi personal rubbish. I am not talking about the trinity! I am just talking about one of its members: the Father. Try to keep up you potato.
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I did no such thing. The true god’s oneness is unique in its plurality
]]]
Amazing. Just amazing! Other then the fact that this is just a logical fallacy, you say that your god is one (in being) but this is still not the same as ours because he is three persons and contradict the sentence “I did no such thing”.
You use the multi personality attribute to distinguish his oneness (in being, whatever the hell that means) from ours.
In other words: you use another attribute of his (multi personality attribute) to make his oneness (in being) attribute seem different from ours;
“Allah’s attribute of oneness is shared with creatures”
Nop cus His oneness is uncreated while ours is created. But you see, you’ll say “but you can’t use Allah’s other attribute to make this one different from His creatures”. Which is the very same thing you do when you bring up the multi personality of your god. Just because the trinity is defined by using the attribute ‘one being’ and ‘multi personality’ attribute in the same definition doesn’t mean that one (being) and multi personality aren’t different attributes. They are TWO attributes! I am only asking about the first one (‘one being’ attribute) and you go ahead and bring up him being 3 persons yada yada yada.
But I wasn’t even asking all of this. My attention was just on the Father alone. But you always bring it back your trinity which is not what I’m asking:
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“You also go to ANOTHER attribute (consciousness) to say that the Father’s oneness is different from us.”
I did no such thing. The true god’s oneness is unique in its plurality
]]]
You see I ask you a question about the Father and you talk about the trinity deity as a whole. Not what I’m asking dude so stop dodging my question. Unless you believe the Father = the triune god (which would be another logical fallacy but hey we got used to hearing that from your side).
The Father is ONE person and so are you. How is he then, by your “logic” (which xtians don’t have), different from you?
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atlas
“The Father is one person, so is the Son and the HS. Being unitarian means to be ONE person”
Being unitarian means to be one person in in one being. I don;t accept your assertion that this is the case. Stop asserting and start supporting your claims.
I have posted this several times, and not one of you towering intellects has been able to respond. What are you guys running away from?
A true god shares no attributes with created beings
Allah’s attribute of oneness is shared with creatures
Allah is not a true god.
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“A true god shares no attributes with created beings”
Yet, the Word became flesh and shared ALL attributes of a created being. So, can we cancel out Jesus as a true God ?
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“I don’t claim to know how it is possible that three seats of consciousness can exist as a single being, but that is one of the reasons I reject islam’s certainty about god.”
This is exactly the reason why Muslims and Jews reject your God. There are 3 consciousness, yet only counted as one being. That’s not logical. And secondly, there is nothing in Bible too that talks about 1 being in 3 persons. All you have is certain verses where you can interpret as Jesus/HolySpirit being divine, ignoring the numerous other verses which say they are not. Not a single statement which says all three are 1 being. So, no logical support and no scriptural support for this mystery.
Here is a related question : You could even add Vishnu, Shiva, Brahma as persons in your 1 being God. Which verse(s) of the Bible contradicts this possibility ?
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I have answered and put your pagan ass in its place for ALL to see. The only one running here is you, you coward.
You don’t dare to answer my previous comment because you know what you said is bullshit!
Try again loser.
“I don;t accept your assertion that this is the case”
That’s what the word literally means you idiot! It means to be ONE person.
The point is that the Father is ONE person. ONE ONE ONE ONE ONE!!!
Do you understand you idiot? ONE person.
I am ONE person. So how is the Father being ONE person different from me being ONE person?
But you will NEVER answer this because if you do then you refute yourself.
“I have posted this several times, and not one of you towering intellects has been able to respond. What are you guys running away from?
Allah’s attribute of oneness is shared with creatures”
Bullshit! His oneness is uncreated while ours is created.
You pretend as if 95% of my comment doesn’t exist and then claim you haven’t been answered.
The I took your moronic “logic” and turned it against you.
Answer these two questions little coward:
1) How is the Father being ONE person (like Allah is ONE person) different from me being ONE person?
2) How is the triune god’s (who doesn’t exist) attribute ‘ONE being’ different from me being ‘ONE being’?
And I don’t want you to use any other attribute of your pagan deity (like his multi personality attribute).
And don’t run to the Father’s OTHER attributes (like ‘him being part of the triune god’ attribute) nor bring the Son or the HS into this.
Now watch brothers as this loser will dance around the questions and pretend as if he hasn’t gotten an answer to his moronic question.
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tiyaan
“Yet, the Word became flesh and shared ALL attributes of a created being.”
Really? No human being has two natures, divine and human. Jesus was not like a human. You are confused.
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atla
“That’s what the word literally means you idiot! It means to be ONE person.”
There you have it. Checkmate.
Allah is one person like all humans, animals and angels. His oneness is not unique.
“The point is that the Father is ONE person.”
Right. One of three positions contained within the being of the godhead. Completely unique in the universe. As you admitted, allah is not unique in the universe.
“1) How is the Father being ONE person (like Allah is ONE person) different from me being ONE person?”
The father is one person of the trinity who shares a will with the other two persons. Humans are not one person in a trinity.
“2) How is the triune god’s (who doesn’t exist) attribute ‘ONE being’ different from me being ‘ONE being’?”
The one being of the triune god is triune – three persons in one being. You are saying the words, but lacking comprehension of them. No other being is triune.
Hope that helps.
“Bullshit! His oneness is uncreated while ours is created.”
That doesn’t even make sense. You can;t even define what allah’s oneness means on its own terms. Yahweh’s unity is different because he is complex in his triunity. Allah’s oneness is trite – it is like the oneness of creatures. You said so yourself. Allah is one person. I am one person.
My attribute of oneness matches allah’s. Allah is not god, ergo.
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tiyan
“Here is a related question : You could even add Vishnu, Shiva, Brahma as persons in your 1 being God. Which verse(s) of the Bible contradicts this possibility ?”
Nice bait and switch.
You are asserting that we could add hindu deities to the trinity and then asking me to show where this could not be so in the bible. The onus is actually on you to prove your assertion – once you support your argument, I can respond. You have to prove – using bible verses – that vishnu, shiva, and brahma, can be included in the trinity.
This is why muslim apologists lose debates – they can’t reason logically.
It is more likely that allah is derived from hinduism – he has two right arms and one leg – intriguingly, shiva has two right arms, and is often depicted standing on one leg….perhaps mohamed came across a broken statue of shiva and thought it was allah?
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[[[[
There you have it. Checkmate.
Allah is one person like all humans, animals and angels. His oneness is not unique.
]]]]
I said His oneness is uncreated. Try again.
[[[[
“The point is that the Father is ONE person.”
Right. One of three positions contained within the being of the godhead. Completely unique in the universe. As you admitted, allah is not unique in the universe.
“1) How is the Father being ONE person (like Allah is ONE person) different from me being ONE person?”
The father is one person of the trinity who shares a will with the other two persons. Humans are not one person in a trinity.
]]]]
Hahaha like I said, you run to the other attribute: multi personality. I asked you just about him being ‘one person’ and you bring in your moronic godhead and that he is a member of the trinity which is EXACTLY what I said you would do. So you use ANOTHER attribute to say that the Father’s oneness is different from ours. Checkmate xtian.
[[[[
“2) How is the triune god’s (who doesn’t exist) attribute ‘ONE being’ different from me being ‘ONE being’?”
The one being of the triune god is triune – three persons in one being. You are saying the words, but lacking comprehension of them. No other being is triune.
]]]]
And AGAIN (for the MILLIONTH time) you go to ANOTHER attribute (your moronic multi personality attribute) to say that his ‘ONE being’ attribute is different from ours. But I EXPLICITLY said not to do this cus you are using ANOTHER attribute. So in the solo attribute ‘ONE being’ He is EXACTLY the same as us, ergo you’re full of shit.
[[[[
“Bullshit! His oneness is uncreated while ours is created.”
That doesn’t even make sense. You can;t even define what allah’s oneness means on its own terms.
]]]]
LOL! But when I ask you how is the Father being ONE person different from us you then go ahead and say that He is part of the triune godhead which is another attribute. And when I ask you how does the ‘ONE being’ attribute of your triune god differ from ours then you jump to the multi personality attribute to explain how the ‘ONE being’ attribute is different from ours.
So what the f do you want exactly???
Can another attribute be used, to make the difference of the attribute in question from ours, or not???
So either accept that Allah’s oneness is different from ours cus it’s uncreated or say ‘no you can’t look at another attribute’ and admit you’re full of shit. If one can’t use another attribute to make a difference of the attribute in question then start following your own advice: STOP USING THE MULTI PERSONALITY ATTRIBUTE OF YOUR GOD TO MAKE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HIM BEING ””ONE BEING”” AND US BEING ”’ONE BEING”’. STOP USING THE ATTRIBUTE ””THE FATHER BEING PART OF THE TRINITY”” ATTRIBUTE WHEN ASKED ABOUT HIS ””ONE PERSON”” ATTRIBUTE.
You lose. Just accept it.Get over yourself.
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“The onus is actually on you to prove your assertion – once you support your argument, I can respond. You have to prove – using bible verses – that vishnu, shiva, and brahma, can be included in the trinity.
This is why muslim apologists lose debates – they can’t reason logically.”
He didn’t assert anything. His claim was that the bible doesn’t go against the idea of there being another person in the godhead, ie it doesn’t limit the amount of persons to 3.
And after not getting this simple argument you go to say that Muslims lose debates and (even more ironic) ‘the can’t reason logically’? Coming from an idiot who follows a religion which has more logical fallacies then any other religion on this planet.
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“…..Really? No human being has two natures, divine and human. Jesus was not like a human. You are confused……”
I think you need to read Atlas’s posts once more. You can’t jump from one attribute to another when quizzed on its similarities with the creation, especially when it’s you who made the claim “A true god shares no attributes with created beings”.
Whether Jesus had a divine nature or not, he was clearly not omniscient from the Bible, meaning he shared an attribute with the created beings, ergo Jesus is not God.
“……You are asserting that we could add hindu deities to the trinity and then asking me to show where this could not be so in the bible…….”
As Atlas already mentioned, I didn’t assert anything. This is the subject of this post itself – how many verses say there are 3 persons ? If you can add any number of persons to your God, and none of the verses of the Bible contradicts it, then it is a failure of the Bible to accurately define Trinity.
“It is more likely that allah is derived from hinduism – he has two right arms and one leg – ?”
I follow one of the traditional school of thoughts in Islam, and we don’t take any of these references literally. Are you one of those who believe “Man is created in the image of God” literally and thinks your God has 2 legs, 2 arms etc. ?
“intriguingly, shiva has two right arms, and is often depicted standing on one leg….perhaps mohamed came across a broken statue of shiva and thought it was allah”
Perhaps, Shiva is the inspiration for Christianity more likely, as we can see the statues of Jesus with one leg slightly above the other resembling Shiva standing on one leg. LOL !!!
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atlas
“I asked you just about him being ‘one person’ and you bring in your moronic godhead and that he is a member of the trinity which is EXACTLY what I said you would do. So you use ANOTHER attribute to say that the Father’s oneness is different from ours. ”
You have defined allah’s oneness as unique because it is uncreated – being uncreated is a separate attribute of god. In other words, allah’s oneness is not unique because as you said, it just means one person one being.
The true god, yahweh, is one being, three persons, thus, his oneness is unique and completely without comparison to creatures.
“But when I ask you how is the Father being ONE person different from us you then go ahead and say that He is part of the triune godhead which is another attribute.”
You are funny. Yahweh’s oneness and triunity are a single quality – the father is not unitarian because he is a triune being.
You really are embarrassing yourself here.
You have admitted that allah is one person like a human is one person. You are completely incapable of explaining how allah’s oneness is unique on its own terms – muslims do not know their own god.
But don’t tell me…..allah’s oneness is a “mystery”.
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atlas
“He didn’t assert anything”
LOL!
Tiyaan said….
“You could even add Vishnu, Shiva, Brahma as persons in your 1 being God. ”
To most intelligent people, this is an assertion.
“His claim was that the bible doesn’t go against the idea of there being another person in the godhead, ie it doesn’t limit the amount of persons to 3.”
So you disagree with mohammed that the bible supports the idea of a plural god who is three persons in one being?
LOL!! It doesn’t get any better than this.
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Brian
You have admitted that allah is one person like a human is one person. You are completely incapable of explaining how allah’s oneness is unique on its own terms – muslims do not know their own god.
But don’t tell me…..allah’s oneness is a “mystery”.
I say;
Allah, Allaha, Elah, Elaha, Eloi, Eloi Lamasabahthani as Jesus called his God is ONE and not created, so He(God) oneness is not MANY ones, but goats or other creations are created MANY that can be counted as more than one like in 2,3,4 etc. i.e. bi, tri, quad etc. Gods as in Trinity, Hindu, Rastafarian etc. Gods.
God oneness is and the Bible said alone, only and no one else but one.
“Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
“See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
“Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
“You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22
“For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?” 2 Samuel 22:32
“Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
“You are the God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
“O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
“You alone [bad] are Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6
“For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God” Psalm 18:31
“You alone, Lord, are God.” Isaiah 37:20
“Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.” Isaiah 43:10
Goats, humans,cows, trinity persons etc. can be counted individually as more than one, so it is not unique like the above biblical verses that says God oneness is one,only and alone i.e. not created.
Thanks.
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tiyaan
“I think you need to read Atlas’s posts once more. You can’t jump from one attribute to another when quizzed on its similarities with the creation”
Atlas is only able to define your god’s oneness in terms of another attribute of “uncreatedness”.
No muslim is capable of defining how allah’s oneness is unlike the oneness of humans. This is because there is no difference and allah shares an attribute that is precisely the same as animals, insects, and sea creatures.Atlas is not that smart.
“Whether Jesus had a divine nature or not, he was clearly not omniscient from the Bible, meaning he shared an attribute with the created beings, ergo Jesus is not God.”
Jesus was simultaneously human and divine – I know of no other human beings who share this quality.
“As Atlas already mentioned, I didn’t assert anything.”
Yes you did. You said….
“You could even add Vishnu, Shiva, Brahma as persons in your 1 being God.”
That’s an assertion. But you have admitted that the bible describes a god who is plural in nature. Islam is false, ergo.
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Brian
Jesus was simultaneously human and divine – I know of no other human beings who share this quality.
I say;
-Emperor Haile Selaissie is was simultaneously human and divine.
-Sai Baba of India was simultaneously human and divine. There are so many God Men out there as their worshipers will also claim and insist their human Gods are the real Gods like you are claiming. Graeko Romans believed in so many human Gods and that is where Trinity was derived from. So, it is not Jesus alone who is God Man.
-Cow Gods, Monkey Gods, Snake Gods, Elephants Gods are all creature Gods like Jesus Christ who is a creature and God at the same time. Before and after Christianity there are so many creature Gods. So creature God is not unique to Trinitarian Christians alone.
Thanks.
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“……..Jesus was simultaneously human and divine – I know of no other human beings who share this quality……”
Well I gave an example regarding omniscience which you ignored. Read again : Whether Jesus had a divine nature or not, he was clearly not omniscient from the Bible, meaning he shared an attribute with the created beings, ergo Jesus is not God.
“…That’s an assertion…”
No, it’s not. Read the full question. ‘You could even add Vishnu, Shiva, Brahma as persons in your 1 being God. Which verse(s) of the Bible contradicts this possibility ?’
“…But you have admitted that the bible describes a god who is plural in nature. Islam is false, ergo…..”
You have serious problems in comprehension if you think I admitted anything of that sort. Your beating around the bush trying to deflect from the question does not help your case.
I repeat, if you can add any number of persons to your God, and none of the verses of the Bible contradicts it, then it is a failure of the Bible to accurately define Trinity.
And to make my position clear, I don’t believe the Bible describes a god who is plural in nature. There are lots of verses showing God in the singular and zero verses saying “3 persons in 1 being”.
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[[[[
“I asked you just about him being ‘one person’ and you bring in your moronic godhead and that he is a member of the trinity which is EXACTLY what I said you would do. So you use ANOTHER attribute to say that the Father’s oneness is different from ours. ”
You have defined allah’s oneness as unique because it is uncreated – being uncreated is a separate attribute of god. In other words, allah’s oneness is not unique because as you said, it just means one person one being.
The true god, yahweh, is one being, three persons, thus, his oneness is unique and completely without comparison to creatures.
“But when I ask you how is the Father being ONE person different from us you then go ahead and say that He is part of the triune godhead which is another attribute.”
You are funny. Yahweh’s oneness and triunity are a single quality – the father is not unitarian because he is a triune being.
You really are embarrassing yourself here.
You have admitted that allah is one person like a human is one person. You are completely incapable of explaining how allah’s oneness is unique on its own terms – muslims do not know their own god.
But don’t tell me…..allah’s oneness is a “mystery”.
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The true god, yahweh, is one being, three persons, thus, his oneness is unique and completely without comparison to creatures.
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And I asked you how his ‘one being’ attribute is different from ours and AGAIN you jumped to the multi personality attribute. What a pathetic loser you are. You really think people here don’t notice your sly tactics?
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You are funny.
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Ty. Tough I’m not sure what’s so funny to you about me kicking your pagan ass but hey I’ll take it!
[[[[
Yahweh’s oneness and triunity are a single quality – the father is not unitarian because he is a triune being.
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I ask you about the ‘ONE person’ attribute when it comes to the Father and AGAIN you jump to your triune god bullshit which is not what I was asking. The Father is a triune being??? Wahahaha! This is exactly the reason why I laugh at xtians! As moronic and self contradicting as their pagan garbage is, they can’t even make proper statements when it comes to their center doctrine. Pathetic!
You moron, he is unitarian. He is ONE PERSON. In other words he is UNITARIAN. How the fuck can the Father be triune??? You just literally equaled the Father to the triune deity (i.e the Father, the Son and the HS). LOOOL!
He is not 3 persons. He is ONE person. So again: How is the Father being ‘ONE person’ different from us? Go ahead loser, jump to the triune bullshit again and ignore the question. You don’t dare answer the question. That’s why everyone here can see you are getting your ass kicked.
And one more funny thing is that you even called him ‘being’. So the Father is a being? What about the Son, is he a being too and the HS as well? Show the fuck do you have ‘ONE being’ when you consider them all three together. You get three beings! Your inner self even admits/knows that you believe in a self contradicting bullshit so you just can’t help it but to contradict yourself in every sentence.
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You really are embarrassing yourself here.
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Good lord. What this greek/roman pagan bullshit has done to over 2 billion people on this planet. The most moronic self contradictory garbage ever invented by man and we have this braindead loser here saying “You really are embarrassing yourself here.”.
You couldn’t make this shit up if your tried.
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You are completely incapable of explaining how allah’s oneness is unique on its own term
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You mean like you are completely incapable of explaining how the Father’s oneness (= him being ONE person) is unique on its own term (i.e without jumping to the triune bullshit attribute) or like you are completely incapable of explaining how your pagan triune deity’s ‘ONE being’ attribute is unique on its own term (i.e without jumping to the multi personality attribute).
Good job burying yourself and your pagan doctrine.
Much appreciated.
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April 2, 2018 • 10:04 am
“……..Jesus was simultaneously human and divine – I know of no other human beings who share this quality……”
Well I gave an example regarding omniscience which you ignored. Read again : Whether Jesus had a divine nature or not, he was clearly not omniscient from the Bible, meaning he shared an attribute with the created beings, ergo Jesus is not God.
/////////////
. it seems that madmanna believes that the divine person was the human person (one mind) and that the divine person DID fully experience in NOT KNOWING something just like you and i .
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“…That’s an assertion…”
No, it’s not. Read the full question. ‘You could even add Vishnu, Shiva, Brahma as persons in your 1 being God. Which verse(s) of the Bible contradicts this possibility ?’
////
they wouldn’t. the consciousness of each individual person can EASILY be plugged into the being . just like jesus is easily plugged in and out, so can the CONSCIOUSNESSES of these gods.
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Great catch there brother Atlas – “Father is a triune being”
The more we discuss, we will uncover more mysteries.
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”
I ask you about the ‘ONE person’ attribute when it comes to the Father and AGAIN you jump to your triune god bullshit which is not what I was asking. The Father is a triune being??? Wahahaha! This is exactly the reason why I laugh at xtians! As moronic and self contradicting as their pagan garbage is, they can’t even make proper statements when it comes to their center doctrine. Pathetic!
You moron, he is unitarian. He is ONE PERSON. In other words he is UNITARIAN. How the fuck can the Father be triune??? You just literally equaled the Father to the triune deity (i.e the Father, the Son and the HS). LOOOL!”
i was going to reply to that as well but i thought to myself forget it , the guy is clearly a moron, he will probably say that “father” is “switchable” with “yhwh”
or “divine being “
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”
He is not 3 persons. He is ONE person. So again: How is the Father being ‘ONE person’ different from us?”
he is not ONLY BEING one person, he is BEING/existing with the OTHER persons As an INDIVIDUAL separate being/existence.
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brian is like a prostitute who jumps from one god to the other.
you will see the pauline prostitute PROSTITUTING his heart to different versions of trinity within this discussion.
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”
No muslim is capable of defining how allah’s oneness is unlike the oneness of humans. This is because there is no difference and allah shares an attribute that is precisely the same as animals, insects, and sea creatures.Atlas is not that smart.”
you’ve been told many times that conscious SINGULAR SELF has ALL ATTRIBUTES WITHIN THE SELF.
the ATTRIBUTES are PERMANENT AND INHERENT ,in other words ALLAH IS
ALL KNOWING ONE
ALL SEEING ONE
ALL HEARING ONE
ALL POWERFUL ONE
THE SELF (SINGULAR SELF) AND POWERS CAN NEVER SEPARATE UNLIKE trinity and humans WHO CAN be SEPARATED from their ATTRIBUTES.
jesus can be STRIPPED from his knowledge
humans can be stripped from their knowledge
in a POSSIBLE world the holy spirit can ORDER the father
in a possible world the father can get stripped from his knowledge.
ALLAH’S ONENESS Is 100 % UNLIKE CREATION ON THE OTHER hand trinity is COMPOSITE AND LIKE CREATED BEINGS . persons CAN BE SEPARATED FROM NATURES. persons can TAKE ON NEW ATTRIBUTES.
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Brian,
You said, “Yahweh’s oneness and triunity are a single quality – the father is not unitarian because he is a triune being.”
You do not accept when Atlas tries to separate the Trinity from the Oneness of the Hypostasis of the Father, but at the same time, you accept the same form of argument if it separates the oneness of Allah from his uncreated nature. Your blatant bias and inconsistency is shameful.
It is a strawman fallacy to arbitrarily separate uncreated nature apart from Unitarian nature. No one gave you the authority to separate.
The uncreated Unitarian nature of God is ONE attribute/quality, as Almighty God Allah was uncreated in his absolute Unique and incomparable Oneness.
Also, I have shown previously that the Qur’an clarifies that Allah’s Oneness is “Incomparable” (Qur’an 112:4) and yet you keep comparing God to a creature.
Why is it so hard for Christians to be intellectually honest about Islamic theology?
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Brian,
You said, “………the bible recounts many instances where god is described in plural terms. God being one does not counter the concept of his plurality.
It is important to note that he supposed “Plural” references to God to not denote a Trinity, and by your reasoning, one could argue that there are a thousand (or more) Hypostasis in the “Plural” Godhead, since your Bible does not clearly define the nature of God.
The ancient Jews, and early Christian’s both knew nothing about a plurality of persons in the godhead, as this article makes clear: https://outreachjudaism.org/elohim-plural/
See also these articles: https://outreachjudaism.org/tag/elohim-plural/
Bottom line is: Hear, Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One.
and
Say: He is THE ONE. (Qur’an 112:1)
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Brian stated that, “The OT monotheistic god is described in plural terms on many occasions – completely in line with the trinity.” – This is a blatant and deceitful misreading of Jewish scripture.
The fact is that Biblical scholarship disagree with this position, as well as all forms of Judaism and Jewish interpretation of their own texts. The simple fact that OT scripture uses plural terminology to describe an individual or something does not by default turn him or it into a trinity. See the following articles and videos:
https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/council-nation-idolatry-plural-terminology/
https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/jews-jewish-christianity-proofs-christianity-hebrew-bible/
http://www.answering-christianity.com/elohim.htm
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intellect
Allah is one like animals, humans,insects, and fish are unitarian. Tawheed is a huge philosophical issue.
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Brian,
Tawheed is only a “huge philosophical issue” for the likes of you………..for everyone else it is elementary and a settled issue.
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if that were the case, then one of the triplets from trinity clearly had EXPERIENCE of existing like a created SINGULAR person .
cover the orange and your person clearly is experiencing created oneness.
that created oneness is PERMANENTLY part of his mind now . your logos currently (i don’t believe this false hindu god exists) is FEELING the oneness RIGHT now .
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You’re an idiot brian who got his ass put its place for all to see and and then in a last ditch effort you repeat your opening statement which got buried. Your dream of trying to resurrect it is as fictional as your pagan deity’s resurrection.
If you have the balls then answer my comments loser.
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Brian
April 3, 2018 • 2:40 pm
intellect
Allah is one like animals, humans,insects, and fish are unitarian. Tawheed is a huge philosophical issue
I say;
Allah, Allaha, Elah, Elaha, Eli, Eloi, Eloi Lamasabahthani as Jesus called his God is a God who is not created like humans, insects etc.
God is not created, so His oneness has no other ones. Humans like Jesus, Haile Selaissies, cow Gods of indian Hindus, Snake Gods of Haiti voodoos and Graeko-Roman creature Gods are all created and are not unique in their oneness but they have others. So many human Gods can be counted and so Jesus is not alone. Jesus God is one and uncreated so there is no other one like the God of Jesus who is not Jesus.
Thanks.
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tiyaan
Jesus was a divine person who took on human nature – not like any other human being.
And yes, you did make an assertion – you asked a question premised on your assertion, but the assertion was made. The onus is still on you to prove your assertion.
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atlas
“And I asked you how his ‘one being’ attribute is different from ours and AGAIN you jumped to the multi personality attribute. What a pathetic loser you are. You really think people here don’t notice your sly tactics?”
It is not as hard as you are finding it. It really isn’t.
The true god’s oneness is different to our by virtue of the fact that he is a triune being – he is plural in his oneness. Allah’s oneness is like mine – unitarian.
You are only capable of defining his oneness in terms of his uncreatedness – this is rubbish. He is uncreated which is self-explanatory, but allah’s oneness still has no definition and no muslim is capable of explaining it. Not least you.
“The Father is a triune being??? Wahahaha!”
I’m sad for you. Wahahahah!
God is a triune being, the father is one person in the trinity. It isn’t hard.
“He is not 3 persons. He is ONE person. So again: How is the Father being ‘ONE person’ different from us?”
Don;t get so excited over a slip of the tongue. It doesn;t help you explain your creature feature allah with his humanlike oneness. The father one person of the trinity, and not a unitarian being. Yahweh is a triune being. This doesn’t change the fact that you are completely incapable of explaining allah’s oneness on its own terms without referring to some other unrelated attribute of his.
Allah is not god because he possesses attributes that are exactly the same as mine – I am unitarian, allah is unitarian. My hamster is unitarian like allah is unitarian. Don’t dodge by sayin “allah is uncreated” – that has nothing to do with oneness.
So despite the insults and flaccid attempts at aggressive dawah, atlas has failed, yet again, to explain the mystery of allah’s oneness. It is looking more and more as though allah is just like creatures in his attribute of oneness.
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ibn
“You do not accept when Atlas tries to separate the Trinity from the Oneness of the Hypostasis of the Father, but at the same time, you accept the same form of argument if it separates the oneness of Allah from his uncreated nature. Your blatant bias and inconsistency is shameful.”
This is as clear an example of complete incomprehension that I have ever seen. Only allah and mohammed in the quran have shown less comprehension of the trinity doctrine.
“ONENESS OF THE HYPOSTASIS”?! Yahweh is one triune being who cannot be separated. Only allah and his poorly informed prophet have made a bigger error in understand christian doctrine.
There is no separation of the persons of the trinity. They are echad, united, one in a way that no other being is one. Allah, on the other hand, is one like my pet goldfish and each of his eggs.
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ibn
“It is important to note that he supposed “Plural” references to God to not denote a Trinity, and by your reasoning, one could argue that there are a thousand (or more) Hypostasis in the “Plural” Godhead, since your Bible does not clearly define the nature of God.”
Yet another assertion. The OT refers to a second person of the godhead and the holy spirit. If there are references to thousands of persons, then I’d like to see them.
“Say: He is THE ONE. (Qur’an 112:1)”
Okay, let’s say he is one. So am I. Allah is like me in his oneness, ergo. Allah is not god, ergo.
Please come up with a more intelligent objection – and explain how your god’s oneness is unique and different from everyone else’s.
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Brian,
If God is Triune…….then why don’t the Jews believe it?
Because the OT does not mention a Trinitarian God. The hebrew word “echad” means ONE in the same way that the Arabic word “Ahad” means and incomparable Divine One. Your Trinitarian doctrine forces you to interpret echad as “united” rather than Unity/One. Early Jews, Christians and Jesus himself believed in a Unitarian God and did not share in your own misinterpretations. Your weak arguments should end there.
You said, “Jesus was a divine person who took on human nature – not like any other human being.” Except that Christian doctrine states that he was “Fully Human” like any other human being…..so you have committed heresy by saying that he was NOT like any other human being.
You make allowance for your Jesus who supposedly incarnated into the avatar of a human creature, to be unlike creation, but you do not make same allowance for Allah who never did the same – Clear BIAS.
Saying that God is one like creatures is an assertion on YOUR part, but I’m sure in your biased insincere mind you think THAT’S ok.
Again, It is a strawman fallacy to arbitrarily separate uncreated nature apart from Unitarian nature. No one gave you the authority to separate.
The uncreated Unitarian nature of God is ONE attribute/quality, as Almighty God Allah was uncreated in his absolute Unique and incomparable Oneness, therefore his primary necessary uncreated oneness is DIFFERENT and INCOMPARABLE to our secondary unnecessary created oneness.
Also, I have shown previously that the Qur’an clarifies that Allah’s Oneness is “Incomparable” (Qur’an 112:4) and yet you keep comparing God to a creature.
Why is it so hard for Christians to be intellectually honest about Islamic theology?
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ibn
“Except that Christian doctrine states that he was “Fully Human” like any other human being…..so you have committed heresy by saying that he was NOT like any other human being.”
I have already said that he was fully human – I still think you are not getting it. Jesus was a divine person that took on human nature and his human nature was fully human. This is basic christain doctrine and nit beholden to your false dichotomies.
“You make allowance for your Jesus who supposedly incarnated into the avatar of a human creature, to be unlike creation, but you do not make same allowance for Allah who never did the same – Clear BIAS.”
Allah did not incarnate because he is the figment of the imagination of a 7th century nomad who was ignorant of christian and jewish beliefs.
“Saying that God is one like creatures is an assertion on YOUR part, but I’m sure in your biased insincere mind you think THAT’S ok.”
Okay, then please do some dawah and explain to us how allah;s oneness is different to my own oneness. You can’t outsource the answer to other attributes – that explains nothing. So go ahead – explain how your god’s oneness is different to the oneness of creatures.
“The uncreated Unitarian nature of God is ONE attribute/quality, as Almighty God Allah was uncreated in his absolute Unique and incomparable Oneness, therefore his primary necessary uncreated oneness is DIFFERENT and INCOMPARABLE to our secondary unnecessary created oneness.”
Yawn.
Mere assertion, absolutely no substance. So allah;s oneness is different because he is uncreated, incomparable, and absolutely unique? That just means that he is uncreated, incomparable and unique, now how is his oneness different to mine? I’m created but I am still one like allah is one.
You have just obfuscated the issue because you are completely incapable of explaining this simple idea. the truth is that tawheed is nonsense. It is inherently absurd that a god can have an attribute that is exactly like mine.
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Brian,
You said, “Allah’s oneness is like mine – unitarian.” – EXCEPT that you are not an uncreated God.
Let’s use your own logic and say God is three, so am I, flesh, bone, blood, God cannot be three things in one like his creatures, ergo God is not triune.
Just as you insist that “There is no separation of the persons of the trinity.” We are free to insist that there is no separation between the uncreated Unitarian nature. You are not the sole arbiter here.
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ibn
“You said, “Allah’s oneness is like mine – unitarian.” – EXCEPT that you are not an uncreated God.”
Being uncreated does not explain oneness. You have been lied to.
“Let’s use your own logic and say God is three, so am I, flesh, bone, blood, God cannot be three things in one like his creatures, ergo God is not triune.”
That isn’t my logic at all. Are your bone a person? Do they talk to you? This is the worst dawah in islam.
“Just as you insist that “There is no separation of the persons of the trinity.” We are free to insist that there is no separation between the uncreated Unitarian nature. ”
In other words, you cannot explain the mystery of allah’s oneness. He is one like all his creatures. Being one has nothing to do with being uncreated.
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Brian,
You changed your tune quickly on the human nature of Jesus………so then in your understanding God is or at least for a time was like his creatures.
As I explained previously Allah did not incarnate, because there was no NEED for an omnipotent, omniscient, eternal God to ever enter creation in the first place. See my further comments on this far above.
By arguing against Islamic understanding of Unitarian God, you are also arguing against the Jewish understanding as well.
The following Jewish descriptions of God’s Unitarian nature are in agreement with Islam:
“While Judaism believes that G-d manifests Himself to His creation (humanity) in many ways, (i.e. as a judge or a protector) G-d’s essence itself is indivisible and therefore without any possibility of distinction. Something that transcends both time and space cannot be described as consisting of three different aspects. The moment we attribute any such distinctions to G-d’s essence, we negate His absolute Oneness and unity.” -https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/god-as-one-vs-the-trinity/
“Missionaries incorrectly argue that the use in Deuteronomy 6:4 of the Hebrew word for One (Echad), rather than the word unique (Yachid), teaches that G-d is a “composite unity” instead of an “absolute unity.” They claim that the Trinity is a composite unity, similar to a physical object that includes many different individual aspects, (eg. one pen, composed of ink, plastic and metal). This reasoning is incorrect, since physical objects that exist within the context of time and space cannot be used to describe G-d who transcends these dimensions. Prior to Creation, G-d was alone and concepts of time, space and the plurality of numbers did not exist. The term unique (Yachid), correctly describes G-d’s existence prior to Creation since it indicates the absence of any plurality or of rapport with any created object.” https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/god-as-one-vs-the-trinity/
The word “echad” in Hebrew actually works in the same way the word “one” does in English. It can mean either a single unity or a compound unity. These Christians are very quick to point to Genesis 1:5, fail to point out verses like these:
“And Pharaoh sent, and, behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go.” Exodus 9:7
“And it came to pass, while they were in the way, that tidings came to David, saying, Absalom hath slain all the king’s sons, and there is not one of them left.” 2 Samuel 13:30
“So shall we come upon him in some place where he shall be found, and we will light upon him as the dew falleth on the ground: and of him and of all the men that [are] with him there shall not be left so much as one.” 2 Samuel 17:12
“There is one [alone], and [there is] not a second; yea, he hath neither child nor brother: yet [is there] no end of all his labour; neither is his eye satisfied with riches; neither [saith he], For whom do I labour, and bereave my soul of good? This [is] also vanity, yea, it [is] a sore travail.” Ecclesiastes 4:8
Bottom Line: If Tawheed of Islam is nonsense, then so is the oneness of God as described by your own Bible which clearly refutes Trinitarianism.
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ibn
“You changed your tune quickly on the human nature of Jesus………so then in your understanding God is or at least for a time was like his creatures.”
Don;t be wilfully ignorant. Jesus is a divine person who took on a human nature, during which he was fully human, simultaneously the father and holy spirit were not human. The trinity means that god exists as three persons in one being at the same time. We are not modalists.
Muslims are modalists – allah can enter his creation in “mysterious” ways, yet he must withhold some of his attributes of divinity when he does so, yet, he is not plural, so whilst he enters creation to be near your jugular or whatever, he can’t be on his thrown at the same time. Your god changes forms at different times, muslims are modalists, ergo.
“By arguing against Islamic understanding of Unitarian God, you are also arguing against the Jewish understanding as well.”
I’m not arguing against you islamic version of a modalist god, I am asking you guys to explain allah’s oneness on its own terms. YOU CAN’T!!
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shitstian came back again :
The father one person of the trinity, and not a unitarian being. Yahweh is a triune being
your pagan mythological pagan creature god is either a MODALIST god, part, or you don’t know what the hell you are talking about
you just don’t seem to be understanding that you are a polytheist shit head.
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Brian,
We have offered a variety of explanation of God’s oneness on its own terms, even in ways in which the Jews explain the same Oneness of God. However, you simply deny the terms we offer, set up strawman arguments which misrepresent Islamic (and Jewish) theology and then act as if you have refuted something. You have proven nothing, except your own refusal to accept any argument contrary to your own preconceived notions and assertions.
Once again – The Arabic words Ahad (Incomparable One) and Waahid (only One) are understood to mean that Allah is the ONE and ONLY uncreated Deity. The Unity, or Oneness of God’s singular being, is unique, absolute, incomparable, transcendent, indivisible, inherent. Absolute oneness is an intrinsic feature of Divinity alone.
If you are only interested in basic numbers (which is wrong in approach) then at least understand that all others beside Him, in spite of existing, in comparison to His own Oneness, virtually amount to being equal to “Zero.”
True insight into God’s absolute oneness cannot be attained without cleansing one’s heart, mind and soul of all forms of idols – apparent and hidden.
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ibn
You have offered nothing. Saying that allah’s oneness is different because he is uncreated explain anything. His oneness is still just like mine except he is – supposedly – uncreated whilst I’m created. That doesn’t affect our oneness. Saying that his oneness is incomparable is merely circular – you are saying that his oneness is different because it is different. Besides, my oneness is incomparable too – no other human being is exactly like me.
So even with these bad arguments, you have failed to explain your god. I suppose we’ll just have to say that it is just a “mystery”.
“True insight into God’s absolute oneness cannot be attained without cleansing one’s heart, mind and soul of all forms of idols – apparent and hidden.”
There is no insight to be gained – allah’s oneness is not unique, unusual, or even impressive.
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Brian,
“Explain God’s oneness on its own terms.”
This article explains one Jewish response to the question based on analytic philosophy:
https://judaismsanswer.com/UnityofGod.htm
The Jewish author concludes that the proper way of looking at G-d’s attributes is that they do not apply to the essence of G-d, but that they are used in reference to actions that He does (will do) after the world has been created.
Going by this understanding, the uncreated nature and oneness of God are NOT separate attributes as you incorrectly argue. But that rather, it is part and parcel of his uncreated inherent transcendent “essence” which is permanently indivisible (this precludes Trinity), eternally singular, and forever One Unitarian being.
The Oneness of God is no mystery to Jews and Muslims. However, the unbiblical Trinitarian Godhead can only be described as a “mystery” and no amount of obfuscating argumentation, or denial can change that fact.
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” Besides, my oneness is incomparable too – no other human being is exactly like me.”
when yhwh speaks how many speakers do you hear? if you hear one speaker and you are 1 speaker, then yhwh is 1 speaking BEING who is like 1 speaking human being , right?
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ibn
Your article fails to answer the question. It is irrelevant that your god was alone before creation, his oneness is still the same as ours after creation. It makes no difference.
Yahweh is triune before creation, and his unitarian creatures are unlike him after creation. Allah is unitarian, creatures are unitarian. Being uncreated has no bearing on oneness.
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ibn, interesting article :
It would seem natural that we could answer yes, however that is not the case. Before the creation of the world the answer is an obvious no. Only G-d existed. Fm(G,b) would be undefined and have no meaning because we are before any being ‘b’ was created. Were there a second eternal being then we would no longer have monotheism. Even worse Fm(G,G) is absurd! What kind of merciful act could G-d do to Himself? G-d lacks nothing. Therefore since before creation it is not possible to say G-d was ‘merciful’, it is not possible to say that G-d’s essence has the attribute of mercy[9].
The question was: Does G-d’s eternal essence include attributes or not? Some, like Saadiah Gaon say yes, while others like Maimonides say not really. Saadiah Gaon contends that when G-d is called “wise” we mean that He has the attribute of Wisdom, while Maimonides contends that we mean it in the negative way; i.e. G-d is not foolish. The ‘problem’ they were dealing with was if when we refer to G-d as being “wise”, does that mean that G-d’s essence has the attribute of ‘Wisdom’. And if it does, are we implying division in the essence of G-d, which would be a compromise to G-d’s unity
ibn issam, how did the writers such as taymiah deal with this ?
there is a person here called “unitarian”
i wonder what he thinks of this.
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Brian,
Allah is uncreated in his incomparable absolute singular transcendent Divine essence before creation, his creatures are created in mortal comparable singularity after creation. What about this are you not getting?
Being uncreated has bearing on being incomparable to anything else that is created. Therefore, God’s Oneness is NOT the same as ours despite your own protests and desires.
Simply denying the obvious does not prove anything. The Trinity is Unbiblical, which is why even the Jews don’t accept it.
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Tony,
Thanks. I realize that there may be some differences between the article and Islamic theology, but I was only trying to offer one example of how Jews have explained the Oneness of God in contrast to Trinitarianism.
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There is nothing exciting about you being braindead. It’s rather sad.
[[[Don;t get so excited over a slip of the tongue]]]
Is this how you explain your failure and embarrassment?
You can’t even use your own moronic argument for your own pagan deity. I ask how is your deity’s ‘ONE being’ attribute different from ours and you jump to his multipersonality attribute. You can’t explain how the Father being ‘ONE person’ attribute is different from ours without jumping to him being part of the trinity attribute. It’s so crystal clear you are dodging this fact and pretending as if you’re not going against your own standard.
So according to your idiotic argument your pagan deity is like your hamster.
I have destroyed you and your bullshit and everyone here knows it. You’re just so desperate to not accept your defeat that you can’t even see the pile of shit you’re in.
You lost BADLY.
Get over it kid.
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I’ll give you the enormous satisfaction of having the last word and to, once again, claim a hollow victory.
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Brian,
“Creatures are unitarian, allah is unitarian, allah is a creature, ergo.
Law of non-contradiction.”
-You seem to be using the word ‘logic’ a lot, so I am rather surprised you dropped this clanger. Penguins are black and white, Zebras are black and white, Penguins are Zebras, ergo. An absolutely terrible syllogistic fallacy.
I’m not quite sure what this has got to do with the law of non-contradiction either?
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Umar,
You just destroyed his logical argument!!! LOL!!
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umar
Thank you!
You have also shown that abu’s pompous assertions are baseless and without merit.
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Nothing, he is just a brainwashed idiot.
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“You have also shown that abu’s pompous assertions are baseless and without merit.”
This is news to me. Abu Talhah has made no such argument.
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Matthew 28:19
2 Corinthians 13:14
Matthew 3:13-17
1 Peter 1:1-2
Ephesians 4
I Corinthians 12
John 14, 15, 16
Acts 5:3-5
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Why don’t you just say “New Testament” instead of quoting full chapters?
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Have you read all the New Testament from beginning to end?
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Ken, i’m replying on Georg’s behalf, he has some issues with his app…so yeah i’m quoting his response…
“You were going to read this paper by, Trinitarian Dan Wallace, have you done so?
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwji86bJi5raAhUqhlQKHcm_Dh4QFjAAegQIBxAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ibr-bbr.org%2Ffiles%2Fbbr%2FBBR_2003a_05_Wallace_HolySpirit.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1nzSXXjJ2yl5rt3a7DTpu1
You cite Acts 5:3-5, but Wallace who you quote yourself says this on page 124:
“It is not enough to say either that the Spirit is presented as personal[93] or that he is sometimes not distinguished from God (as in Acts 5:3-4). What also must be done is (1) a clear demonstration that language about the Spirit’s personality can-
not be due to figurative rhetoric or circumlocution of the divine
name,[94] and (2) that where he is viewed as personal he is also viewed
as deity, yet, (3) in those same texts, is seen as distinct from both Father and Son.
——-
93. “Apart from the grammatical argument that has been addressed in this paper,
the NT speaks of the Holy Spirit in personal terms, especially as the subject or object of personal verbs (e.g., teaching, grieving, blaspheming, etc.). Many theologians and exegetes appeal to such texts as though they demonstrated the personality of the Spirit without showing how similar phenomena in Jewish literature do not demonstrate this. For example, in Sir 39:28, pneu/mata (which, in this context, means “winds”) is personified,
with the masculine pronoun au)tou/j, following.”
You merely assume Acts 5:3-4 proves your point. Wallace says otherwise.”
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I have not read all of that article yet; and I don’t fully understand what Wallace’s point is that you are trying to say; except that all Wallace is saying, as I understand it by just cursory reading of what you provided, it that the doctrine of the Deity of the Holy Spirit is based on more than just one or two verses, like Acts 5:3-5. “It is not enough” means that the whole doctrine is based on a lot of verses put together in a consistent way. I don’t have time now for more; but I hope to read Wallace’s whole article in the future. Thanks Shaad.
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@Ken, yeah you’re welcome 👍
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Ken says “Have you read all the New Testament from beginning to end?”
What’s the point of this question ? My comment was on your mention of whole chapters like John 14,15,16 etc. when you could simply show a verse which says ‘3’ persons in 1 being or whatever reasoning you believe to make those 3 divine persons count as 1.
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Not many doctrines are fully contained in just one verse – Islam also has many doctrines that have to have other verses with them to fully explicate the doctrine. The demand for exact words and phrases in one verse is a wrong premise. There are several verses regarding the Holy Spirit in John chapters 14, 15, and 16 and I did not want to take the time to type it all out and it was just easier to type it that way – besides, you need to read the whole chapters for context and better understanding and also read the whole NT from beginning to end to begin to understand.
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Ken,
I was not asking to prove divinity of Jesus or HS, but the reference to the “3 persons in 1 being” concept. There is a difference in saying Jesus/HS is divine AND “Father, son and HS are 1 being”.
I asked the question in a different way to Brian which he didn’t answer. Let me hear what is your response to this.
How do you know there are only 3 persons in the Godhead ? If let’s say a 4th person is added (assume the avatar of God Vishnu incarnated as Krishna in India same like Word incarnated as Jesus in Israel), which verse of the Bible discounts / contradicts this possibility ?
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Because the Bible itself limits the persons to 3 – the triad of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all through the Scriptures – Matthew 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Matthew 3:13-17; Ephesians 4:4-6; 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; 1 Peter 1:1-2, etc.
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Ken Temple
April 4, 2018 • 6:06 pm
Not many doctrines are fully contained in just one verse – Islam also has many doctrines that have to have other verses with them to fully explicate the doctrine. The demand for exact words and phrases in one verse is a wrong premise. There are several verses regarding the Holy Spirit in John chapters 14, 15, and 16 and I did not want to take the time to type it all out and it was just easier to type it that way – besides, you need to read the whole chapters for context and better understanding and also read the whole NT from beginning to end to begin to understand.
I say;
One does not have to read the whole paragraph or the whole NT to know “3 in 1 God”. That is not how the honest God speak about who He is or about His nature that He wants us to know. He clearly said He is ONE, ONLY and ALONE clearly and several times in one single sentences like this;
“Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
“See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
“Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
“You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22
“For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?” 2 Samuel 22:32
“Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
“You are the God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
“O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
“You alone is Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6
“Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35
Ken, If God can say the above in one sentence, He can say He is “3 Persons/persons 1 God” in one sentence because it is important rather than hiding this IMPORTANT knowledge.
Thanks.
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As I have said many times, none of those OT verses contradict Trinitarian theology, since all Trinitarians affirm the Shema and OT. The NT gives us more revelation of how to understand God – One God in 3 persons.
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Well said Intellect. So many verses saying God is one, yet no mention of 3 in 1, and there is possibility for more number of persons.
They first made Jesus divine, then later made HS divine and then they had to accommodate these blasphemies to fit all the clear “God is One” verses, giving rise to meaningless, illogical and non-scriptural concepts of “3 persons in 1 being” , “3 persons in 1 essence”, “3 persons in 1 indivisible spirit” etc.
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“….Because the Bible itself limits the persons to 3 – the triad of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all through the Scriptures – Matthew 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Matthew 3:13-17; Ephesians 4:4-6; 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; 1 Peter 1:1-2, etc….”
Matthew 28:19
That is talking of baptism, nothing to do with “3 persons in 1 being”. The apostles didn’t use all 3 either. It could well be that there is a 4th person incarnated in India, but since the verse is addressing the disciples in Israel and they are not aware of the other incarnations, it was not mentioned. Might sound silly, but you know the question is what verse of the Bible contradicts such a possibility.
2 Corinthians 13:14
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all. Amen.
Surprising you use this verse, when God is mentioned separately from Jesus and Holy Spirit. This is another flaw of the NT, that when it is teaching a new concept of a 3 personal God, yet tries to separate Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit from ‘God’. And there are other instances too.
Matthew 3:13-17
It speaks of baptism of Jesus, and Holy Spirit descending upon him and Father saying he is pleased with him. There is nothing to suggest they are 1 being. I can easily relate this with Allah(swt), Gabriel (as) and Muhammed (saw).
Ephesians 4:4-6
It talks about 1 body and 1 spirit of the Father. Nothing to do with Jesus and HS.
1 Corinthians 12:4-6
I didn’t find anything there regarding 3 persons in 1 God.
1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
That’s another verse where the God is mentioned as the Father alone.
How does any of these verses limit to 3 ?. The 3 verses mentioning them together are not speaking of the tripersonality of God. It’s a stretch to assume that.
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“Yahweh reveals his loving nature, allah reveals that he is one. ”
your god is parts and bits you pagan. his “loving nature” is just a NATURELESS consciousness that transforms into meat .
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“Right. One of three positions contained within the being of the godhead. Completely unique in the universe. As you admitted, allah is not unique in the universe.”
coco the monkey is changing “person” to ONE of three “positions”
changing the definition like a confused monkey
“1) How is the Father being ONE person (like Allah is ONE person) different from me being ONE person?”
“The father is one person of the trinity who shares a will with the other two persons. Humans are not one person in a trinity.”
coco the monkey is saying “one person” and covering the “one person” with the word “will” to confuse the readers.
coco does not understand that EACH singular person EXPERIENCES his WILL by itself. it is a conscious singular person
coco confusion
“2) How is the triune god’s (who doesn’t exist) attribute ‘ONE being’ different from me being ‘ONE being’?”
”
The one being of the triune god is triune – three persons in one being. You are saying the words, but lacking comprehension of them. No other being is triune.”
coco going back to 3 persons in one box
coco avoiding the problem
your pagan mythical god is NOT unique at all . humans invented your mythical god in the past.
i showed you a picture of a god with 5 centres of consciousness on EACH side. your pagan mythical god is invented.
” Yahweh’s unity is different because he is complex in his triunity. ”
what ?
”
Allah’s oneness is trite – it is like the oneness of creatures. You said so yourself. Allah is one person. I am one person.”
CREATURES ARE COMPOSITE.
ALLAH IS NOT COMPOSITE
INTERNAL WITHIN ALLAH ARE THE POWERS THAT “MAKE UP” ALLAH, remove any of them, ALLAH will not be ALLAH
your god is a GROUP, company, team of things which can go IN and out of its powers, which means your god is like a HUMAN body. it is humans who say they have “out of body” experiences so your yhwh is a creature. a creation .
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The cause of Brian’s (intentional?) misunderstanding of Islamic theology that he is focusing on the number “one” comparing that with other things that are “one” in number and then arguing that God’s nature cannot be one since there are other things in creation that likewise are “one”.
However, we know that God is uncreated in his absolute solitary Unitary Oneness, incomparable to anything else, especially his creation. Therefore, according to both Muslim and Jewish understanding Gods Unity “transcends” any such “oneness” that we humans (Brian included) might attempt to explain, compare or understand.
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But all the persons of the trinity subsist in one indivisible spirit, not a body or any other form with parts, according to all the creeds of orthodox christianity.
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Where does it say that in the Bible that the “Father, HS and Jesus” are one indivisible spirit ? Does it even make sense when they have 3 different wills ? You are saying all this to make Jesus and HS share divinity and at the same time count as 1 God.
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madmanna
April 1, 2018 • 9:44 pm
But all the persons of the trinity subsist in one indivisible spirit, not a body or any other form with parts, according to all the creeds of orthodox christianity
I say;
The Holy Spirit who is the third Person/person of Trinity is an individual like Jesus is also an individual. The Holy Spirit who is an individual subsists in another one individual Spirit? According to all the creeds? It is about who God is, so the Bible should be clear like this;
Any person is an individual and therefore a being. A Person/person cannot be a Person/person without being a being/individual. May be Christians must change the words, begotten, Son/son, Person/person etc. and use words such as brothers, executives, managers etc. to put their Gods in the same level than this confusions.
“there is no one like Yahweh our God.” Exodus 8:10
“Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35
“Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
“See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
“Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
“You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22
“For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?” 2 Samuel 22:32
“Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
“You are the God, You alon, of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
“O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
“You alone are Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6
When it comes to the nature of God, the Bible is clear.
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“But all the persons of the trinity subsist in one indivisible spirit, not a body or any other form with parts, according to all the creeds of orthodox christianity.”
“subsist”
“indivisible”
lol
the sons person “feels” like “son”
the fathers person “feels” like father
they EACH know they are not the other , covering them in “one spirit” is not GOING to take away their DIFFERENCES between each other. using language of guile and trickery is not going to cause each person to BLEND in with the other. your god is a team, group of separate ONES.
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Well said Tony. All these explanations they come up with are to somehow make Jesus & HS divine. “Subsisting in 1 indivisible spirit”, “3 persons in 1 essence”, “single being with three seats of consciousness” etc. are all meaningless explanations and it has no scriptural support either. If we read the Bible through the Islamic understanding of Jesus, then most of these contradictions do not exist at all.
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/////////////
“That’s what the word literally means you idiot! It means to be ONE person.”
There you have it. Checkmate.
Allah is one person like all humans, animals and angels. His oneness is not unique.
/////////////
but you IDENTIFIED one OF the persons in trinity as “one centre of consciousness” from a GROUP of 3.
now you tell me how ALLAHS consciousness is like that of a CREATED being.
“The point is that the Father is ONE person.”
“Right. One of three positions contained within the being of the godhead. Completely unique in the universe. As you admitted, allah is not unique in the universe.”
“one of the 3 positions” hahahahaa is not a CONSCIOUS thing ?
not a SELF
not a one
not a thing which is AWARE that it is NOT the other thing /person ?
“1) How is the Father being ONE person (like Allah is ONE person) different from me being ONE person?”
“The father is one person of the trinity who shares a will with the other two persons. Humans are not one person in a trinity.”
the father HAS the EXPERIENCE of its OWN will
for example
the father wants to do something
but the ACT the father will take, the son will not be doing the act AS the father will be doing, because the father is his OWN person
with his OWN experience
the son has his OWN experience
the spirit has its own experience
father makes loves to the son
son makes love to the father
FATHER will have his OWN individual EXPERIENCE of being SUBJECT of love making on the son and son will have his OWN individual experience of love making on the father .
but IF the father EXPERIENCES being the object of his OWN love, then his person would be enough and he would not need jesus, he could make love to himself.
thats why the EXPERIENCES have to belonging to EACH separate conscious person. the WILLS have to BE their own.
the EXPERIENCES have to be THEIR own .
“2) How is the triune god’s (who doesn’t exist) attribute ‘ONE being’ different from me being ‘ONE being’?”
”
The one being of the triune god is triune – three persons in one being. You are saying the words, but lacking comprehension of them. No other being is triune.”
3 triplets in one or the one is 3 ?
does your god EXIST as a father (individualperson), son (indivisdual person) and ghost (individual person)
or are you DUMPING all 3 in one box?
Hope that helps.
“Bullshit! His oneness is uncreated while ours is created.”
”
That doesn’t even make sense. You can;t even define what allah’s oneness means on its own terms. Yahweh’s unity is different because he is complex in his triunity. Allah’s oneness is trite – it is like the oneness of creatures. You said so yourself. Allah is one person. I am one person.
My attribute of oneness matches allah’s. Allah is not god, ergo.”
EXPLAIN hows ALLAHS CONSCIOUSNESS of being SINGULAR INTERNALLY is that of CREATED consciousness?
in trinity, you have SINGULAR consciousnesses.
so EACH singular consciousness in trinity is CREATED .
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and interesting below :
Do the logical fallacies never cease? Tom, 3 separate consciousnesses ( or minds) cannot be one mind, lest they cease to be 3 separate minds. 3 minds can be privy to the same knowledge, and possess equal power, and even possess omnipresence (so long as they are immaterial in nature) without actually becoming one mind. If your intention is to say that these minds are “one” in the sense that they are equal in knowledge, power, and presence then yes, they are “one”…but strictly in a poetic sense. If you assert that these 3 minds are truly 1 mind in a literal sense then logic will not support your conclusion.
“Divinity is a property common to all three, but it is not a shared property. Annie, Betty and Charlie all have blue eyes, a common property — if it were a shared property, they’d have one pair of blue eyes between the three of them.”
That is EXACTLY the point I’m making Thomas and the context of my rebuttal, along with the analogy I presented, clearly demonstrate it. I submitted that you refer to one SHARED common essence or property. If you must nit pick, then for your satisfaction I will defer to the precise terminology you fancy. Make no mistake however, the intent behind my use of the word “shared” aligned perfectly with what you’ve posted above.
Wrong. The father, son and spirit share a common intent, yet their wills remain distinctly their own by virtue of their individuality. Thus they are three separate individuals who separately will with common intent. They are not one, literal God possessing one singular will. Like it or not Thomas, we are in accord.
Then you assert that God can lack these attributes while remaining divine? If so, how could such a being be the creator of all things? How can a being exist infinite in its totality if not for the presence of these attributes? A total and absolute infinite nature demands these qualities Thomas.
Two wills represent two separate and distinct minds (which as you stated in your previous post, posses differing degrees of knowledge), they therefore cannot logically exist as one complete person. 2 cannot be one. To suggest that two minds, possessing differing degrees of knowledge, can exist as one person (personality being a product of mind) is a flagrant violation the law of non-contradiction. Or are you suggesting that Jesus suffered from multiple personality disorder? Even this defies logic given that one suffering from multiple personality disorder cannot exist FULLY as two personalities simultaneously.
Three wills (minds), one intent….One God?! Where on earth do you derive that notion. 3 separate and distinct persons, each possessing a separate and distinct mind, cannot exits as one being (God). They are three not one. You can’t just throw “one God” in there and expect that I’ll over look the brazen logical fallacy you require in order to argue for your preferred doctrinal interpretation of the trinity.
Inhabiting a body does not make two minds one person, for personality is a product of the mind..as is the will. Thus both 2 minds and 2 wills cannot exist as one person in any literal sense. Regardless of whether you stuff them into one body. The separate knowledge and will reflected by one mind will produce a personality separate and distinct from the personality produced by the other. The two can never be one, according to logic.
THE LAST PARAGRAPH IS THE POINT!
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The union of the two natures in Christ is in the one self, I or person, of the Logos, whatever you want to call it.
Chalcedon:
“the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ;”
“Where does it say that in the Bible that the “Father, HS and Jesus” are one indivisible spirit ? Does it even make sense when they have 3 different wills ? You are saying all this to make Jesus and HS share divinity and at the same time count as 1 God.”
Jesus said that God is a spirit, John 4 v 24
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“The union of the two natures in Christ is in the one self, I or person, of the Logos, whatever you want to call it.”
so when jesus says
“my father, take this cup away from me”
them the one i /self is speaking through both natures because the experience of the flesh is being communicated IN FEELING to the divine nature, right?
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is the communication one way or is it two ways?
for example
when the human flesh says ” i am ” then is the flesh receiving the same communication as the invisible when it says “i am ” ?
so when gods SELF says “i am ”
is the self of the human person getting that same “feeling” as the divine person when it says ” i am ”
you get me?
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“Jesus said that God is a spirit, John 4 v 24”
Well, what I specifically asked was “Where does it say that in the Bible that the “Father, HS and Jesus” are one indivisible spirit ?
You are trying to replace God with “Father, HS and Jesus” when there is no single reference of “3 persons in 1 being” God in the Bible. And that’s where you got it all wrong. You innovated a concept that wasn’t there, that wasn’t taught by any of the prophets.
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you wrote :
But all the persons of the trinity subsist in one indivisible spirit, not a body or any other form with parts, according to all the creeds of orthodox christianity.
end quote
your “indivisible spirit” is just smoke screen. i will QUOTE why :
Inhabiting a body does not make two minds one person, for personality is a product of the mind..as is the will. Thus both 2 minds and 2 wills cannot exist as one person in any literal sense. Regardless of whether you stuff them into one body. The separate knowledge and will reflected by one mind will produce a personality separate and distinct from the personality produced by the other. The two can never be one, according to logic.
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The human mind of Christ is not self-existent and separate to his divine mind. Strictly speaking we cannot speak of two minds or separate thoughts at all. His human thoughts have their origin in his divine nature because he is the Logos. They do not arise from a separate source.
King James Bible
1 Tim 3 v 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
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“The human mind of Christ is not self-existent and separate to his divine mind.
Strictly speaking we cannot speak of two minds or separate thoughts at all. His human thoughts have their origin in his divine nature because he is the Logos. They do not arise from a separate source.”
i will repeat what i understood u r saying :
then jesus the human mind and the divine mind are 1 mind. do you agree ?
whateveri s happening to the human mind must also happen to the divine mind , one cannot separate the two. do you agree?
whatever experiences the human mind has it is communicated “in feeling”/REALITY to the “divine mind and vice VERSA for they are ONE mind , INDIVISIBLE , inseparable “one”
interconnected /fixed/impaled ?
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KJV 1 Tim 3 v 16 God was manifest in the flesh….
Other translations say “He was manifest in the flesh..”
Probably, there has been another attempt at alteration of the text.
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“so when jesus says
“my father, take this cup away from me”
them the one i /self is speaking through both natures because the experience of the flesh is being communicated IN FEELING to the divine nature, right?”
I think we are just looking at one direction that his will was moving in at this point. Muslims make the mistake of seeing this as the totality of what his will was desiring as regards his upcoming passion.
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“I think we are just looking at one direction that his will was moving in at this point”
which direction ?
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““my father, take this cup away from me”
them the one i /self is speaking through both natures because the experience of the flesh is being communicated IN FEELING to the divine nature, right?”
in terms of sensory perception the movement would be from the human across to the divine nature.
his human feelings and emotions are triggered by his divine mind conceiving and reflecting upon his upcoming suffering. This occurs simultaneously both as divine and human thought. Not as two separate acts.
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“in terms of sensory perception the movement would be from the human across to the divine nature.”
”
his human feelings and emotions are triggered by his divine mind conceiving and reflecting upon his upcoming suffering. This occurs simultaneously both as divine and human thought. Not as two separate acts.”
absolutely confused with your response
1. the divine mind is just something which triggers but does not experience the feelings of the human mind ?
2. the divine mind not only triggers, but fully shares in experience with the human mind (fully has experience of remorse, grief, pain, fear, worship of god, begging god, etc etc )
3. the divine mind is in the same mind, but remains distinct and separate in the same mind
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i am saying i don’t get what you are saying. easy english please.
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It would appear reasonable to assume that the human sphere of the divine mind of the Logos obviously doesn’t exhaust the mind of the Logos nor would it be possible to do so within the framework of the possibilites of finite human nature.
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you are saying that even though the divine mind has full experience of the human mind, it cannot be out done by the human mind ?
you are agreeing that the divine mind in its divine mind cannot know, can learn, can forget , but it cannot be outdone ?
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quote :
You said, “Yahweh’s oneness and triunity are a single quality – the father is not unitarian because he is a triune being.”
yhwh is 1 but 3.
3 PARTS ?
3 parts of 1?
“3 PERSONS united” is 3 things JOINED together.
BUT THEIR “feelings” ARE THEIR OWN .
the father DOES NOT FEEL what the son FEELS , otherwise he would not need the son, his person would be enough. the son does not feel what it is to be the father, otherwise the son would not need the father, his person would be enough
so THERE IS NO unity in “feeling” because EACH item does not have the EXPERIENCE of existing as the other ;therefore there is SINGULARITY in feeling (the person knows it is not the other and is different otherwise you just have 3 persons which are really 1 person or 3 mirrors showing the same person in 3 mirrors )
your father is a SINGLE person
your son is a SINGLE person
your ghost is a single person
these are NOT BLENDED together in a BLENDER you pagan
that would be Heresy
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quote :
Moreover, the compound argument boomerangs on the trinitarians who espouse it. Since the components are not the whole, one cannot call a part the whole. Hence, if the sum of the parts is “God,” then the parts, by definition, cannot be God. And since the whole cannot exist without the union of the parts, the parts are, again by definition, logically prior to and more fundamental than the whole. Hence, the compound Trinity renders God as less fundamental and logically subordinate to “its” (so it must be, since their God is merely an abstract term) parts.
/////////////
Why is this important? because it exposes coco the pagan monkey really badly. it proves that his
1 god is 3 , is really 3 parts.
if he says one of the 3 is “fully yhwh” then he unitarianized his person, again.
then he has to force himself into thinking that the father is not PART but FULLY god.
coco monkey coco monkey coco monkey
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coco monkey wrote :
You said, “………the bible recounts many instances where god is described in plural terms. God being one does not counter the concept of his plurality.
he thinks of one god as PLURAL beings . plural existences.
lol , this guy must be a hindu .
1 is really PLURALITY like one shirt is really a plurality of things “joined ” together.
coco monkey parts worshipper , then unitarianizes the parts , then parts again, then places his 3 peas in one box, then says that the 3 peas are 1 box , lol you dirty pagan hindu.
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All the silly trolls arguing that “Allah’s being one is like creatures being one” need to first get through their thick skulls the difference between necessary and contingent – that’s where the “confusion” (if it can be called such, seeing as it seems intentional) seems to stemming from.
Only then can things proceed. But that won’t happen; the lot of them are disingenuous cheerleading laymen. These sorts of “Christians” are strangers to sincerity.
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wajibul wujood vs mumkin
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Yeah… basic stuff, I thought.
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And mustahil.
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Ibn Sina developed the argument, “burhan al-siddiqin” which explains Wajib al-wujood, and his highly influentian and widely circulated philosophy was repeated almost verbatim by Christians like Thomas Aquinus, Duns Scotus and even by the Jewish scholar Maimonides.
Sadly in their missionary zeal to attack Islam, Christian fundamentalist and many westerners today do not give credit where credit is due. They attack Islamic theology, even when Ibn Sina’s philosophy is applied, but love and defend the very SAME philosophy if it is presented under a beloved western name such as Thomas Aquinus. This can only be understood as blatant prejudice, and bias, towards Islam.
Abu Talhah is right, in that such “Christians” are, “..disingenuous cheerleading laymen…” and “…strangers to sincerity.”
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Yep. I still don’t quite understand how anyone with a firm grasp of the مقالات العشر would support Trinitarianism, as Aquinas did, but these guys on here don’t even know the first thing about the most basic premises. “Indivisible spirit” divided up into “three persons?” God having a “mind?”
Really a shame.
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seems more like thought terminating theological clichés…
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abu t
“All the silly trolls arguing that “Allah’s being one is like creatures being one” need to first get through their thick skulls the difference between necessary and contingent – that’s where the “confusion” (if it can be called such, seeing as it seems intentional) seems to stemming from.”
Here we go – load up on the cryptic pomposity!
Necessary and contingent are attributes in their own right that have absolutely nothing to do with oneness. We cannot say allah is one because he is necessary – that makes no sense. Likewise, saying allah is one because he is necessary makes no sense.
You are making excuses for not being able to explain allah;s oneness on its own terms. You can’t escape the fact that allah is one like every other creature in existence.
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No, you just aren’t familiar enough with the basics to participate effectively in this type of conversation. Call it what you want, but it’s clear that you aren’t prepared and you aren’t sincere. The others on here can keep kicking a dead horse (and your behind) if they’d like. As I said before, I just don’t have the patience.
و صلى الله على محمدو على آله
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abu t
That should read
We cannot say allah is one because he is necessary – that makes no sense. Likewise, saying allah is necessary because he is one makes no sense.
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That’s a strawman, by the way.
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abu t
Pomposity isn’t a satisfactory response.
What is clear is that not one of you guys can even come close to explaining how your god’;s oneness is different to mine. Referring to other attributes doesn’t work because it still fails to explain what is different about allah;s oneness, it just explains that allah is different – mere circularity.
You obviously have no answer – which is why you are hiding behind arabic. The truth is that allah’s attribute of oneness is exactly like mine. No amount of pompous posturing is going to change that fact.
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Okay, kiddo, let’s take it slow then.
We posit the premise, regarding things’ existences, that they can be divided into the following categories:
1. Necessary
2. Possible
3a. Intrinsically Impossible
3b. Extrinsically Impossible
Do you accept this premise?
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Also, not hiding behind Arabic. You’re just lazy. Google translate what I said, lazy boy.
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Brian,
We have explained REPEATEDLY AD NASEUM who God’s Incomparable Unity is different than ours. The fact that you set up strawman arguments, and simply refuse to accept our answers proves nothing.
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ibn
“We have explained REPEATEDLY AD NASEUM who God’s Incomparable Unity is different than ours. ”
Calling allah’s oneness “incomparable” explains nothing – all you are saying is that allah’s oneness is different because allah;s oneness is different.
As for strawmen – you have to make an argument before someone can strawman it – abu t made no argument, he made a pompous assertion and then claimed that I had somehow made a strawman.
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this pagan greek mythological god
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“No, you just aren’t familiar enough with the basics to participate effectively in this type of conversation. Call it what you want, but it’s clear that you aren’t prepared and you aren’t sincere. The others on here can keep kicking a dead horse (and your behind) if they’d like. As I said before, I just don’t have the patience.”
we ask you to continue because remember you could be benefiting other people with your responses.
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Fine.
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There is a reason that Christians have written thousands of books each attempting to explain the doctrine of the Trinity. That is because the contradiction that is the Trinitarian Doctrine is confusing, irrational, incomprehensible, illogical and impossible to explain in a concise manner without resorting to writing long treatises on the subject.
In contrast, Jews and Muslims have no problems in clearly and concisely explaining the Oneness of God’s Unitarian nature.
Christians like Brian are forced to try to make Unitarianism seem problematic, in order to divert and distract from the embarrassment of the unbiblical doctrine of the trinity.
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ibn
Okay, so if your concept of allah’s oneness is so simple, then please explain it.
I have asked at least a dozen times, and no muslim on this blog has been able to do it. How is allah’s oneness different from a slug’s?
Refrain from using other attributes to describe this one attribute of oneness.
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Brian,
What you fail to understand is that since God’s Unity is absolute, we must deal with him in totality. You cannot play one attribute or trait against another in order to justify your own false beliefs or actions. If you claim that God’s very Oneness is an attribute, then we are free to claim that each “person” of the Trinity is an attribute, and we argue further, why stop at Three? Or does you god have no more than three attributes? By claiming that the very Oneness of God is merely an attribute you set your triune God up for failure as well.
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abu t
“Okay, kiddo, let’s take it slow then.
We posit the premise, regarding things’ existences, that they can be divided into the following categories:”
Okay, let’s take it really slow.
How about you make a point, or an argument, or even a comment of substance and we can move forward?
Go on, I dare you, say something of substance instead of pompous dismissals and cryptic assertions .
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Pay attention, little guy. I said let’s take it slow. So I’m waiting for you to either accept or reject the premise I presented you before we move forward.
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Abu T
Better still abu, how about you explain how allah oneness is different to mine? Don’t refer to other attributes like “uncreatedness”, or “incomparability” – these shed no light on his oneness.
The truth is that none of you guys can explain this basic islamic doctrine on its own terms – because it makes no sense for a god to be one like his creatures.
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Brian denies all premises, terms, and definitions, rejects basic principles and precepts, misrepresents Islamic theology, and repeats his own strawman arguments incessantly after they have been refuted…….
…….and then acts like he has disproven Unitarianism.
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ibn
“Brian denies all premises, terms, and definitions, rejects basic principles and precepts, misrepresents Islamic theology, and repeats his own strawman arguments incessantly after they have been refuted…….”
I’ve done no such thing.
I’ve made a simple request – explain allah’s oneness on its own terms. You cannot refer to other attributes because that merely obscures the meaning of oneness – allah;s oneness has nothing whatsoever to do with uncreatedness. It makes no sense to say that his oneness is different because he is uncreated because it explains nothing.
If I’m unitarian and allah is unitarian, we share the same essence of oneness. Allah being – supposedly – uncreated, just means that he is uncreated and has no bearing on his oneness.
You guys just cannot explain your most basic doctrine.
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abu t
“Pay attention, little guy. I said let’s take it slow. So I’m waiting for you to either accept or reject the premise I presented you before we move forward.”
Don’t get dramatic. Just make a point you pompous twit.
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Still waiting, kiddo. Ball’s in your court still.
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Brian,
You cannot arbitrarily set the parameters of the discussion. We have explained our most basic doctrine, you are free to accept or not. Repeating yourself proves nothing.
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ibn
“You cannot arbitrarily set the parameters of the discussion. We have explained our most basic doctrine, you are free to accept or not. Repeating yourself proves nothing.”
Pointing out that your strategy of defining one of allah;s attributes in terms of another does nothing to explain allah;s oneness is not setting arbitrary parameters – it is a simple refutation of your argument.
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Brian
April 5, 2018 • 3:08 pm
Abu T
Better still abu, how about you explain how allah oneness is different to mine? Don’t refer to other attributes like “uncreatedness”, or “incomparability” – these shed no light on his oneness.
The truth is that none of you guys can explain this basic islamic doctrine on its own terms – because it makes no sense for a god to be one like his creatures.
I say;
Explain how your Trinity God oneness is different to other 3 Persons/persons Gods like Hindu Gods or other idol worshiping God. Explain how Jesus oneness is different from Emperor Haile Selaissie, Sai Baba and many incarnated Gods. Don’t refer to other attributes.
Explain how your Trinity God is different from Kerberos( the 3 headed dog of hades) Don’t refer to other things.
Thanks.
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Brian,
Your request to explain Allah’s oneness on its own terms is based in the fallacy of Petitio Principii.
You are begging the question in assuming your initial point that God’s Oneness MUST exclusively be explained on its own terms. The initial premise of your argument is bad, therefore, your argument is bad.
Islamic (and Jewish) theology is not bound by the irrational false rules and premises of Trinitarian theology.
The difference here is that both Muslims and Jews can refer to their respective scriptures and find clear references indicating the Unitary nature of God. Whereas, Christians have no biblical support for the Trinity…because Trinity is an UNBIBLICAL doctrine.
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ibn
Okay, let’ say I agree with you. Allah oneness is unique because he is uncreated. This makes allah’s oneness and uncreatedness the same thing.
Clearly they are not – being unitarian is vastly different to being uncreated – they are two separate qualities or attributes. You have conflated them into one attribute because you are incapable of explaining how your god’s oneness essence is diffferent to any animal’s.
Allah’s oneness cannot be differentiated from my own. he cannot, therefore, be the true god.You worship a modalist god who somehow enters creation mysteriously, but by necessity laying aside some of his powers so that he is no longer fully god, but some in-betweeny thing.
In other words, your god changes forms, but he cannot be separated, allah is a modalist god, ergo.
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Brian
April 5, 2018 • 10:33 pm
ibn
Okay, let’ say I agree with you. Allah oneness is unique because he is uncreated. This makes allah’s oneness and uncreatedness the same thing.
Clearly they are not – being unitarian is vastly different to being uncreated – they are two separate qualities or attributes. You have conflated them into one attribute because you are incapable of explaining how your god’s oneness essence is diffferent to any animal’s.
Allah’s oneness cannot be differentiated from my own. he cannot, therefore, be the true god.
I say;
Your Trinity God oneness cannot be different from any 3 Person/person, especially idol worshipers and Greeko/Roman Gods.
A pig eating shit and human carcass is created. You, Brian, you are also created. Based on your logic, you are a pig eating human carcass because you are created and a pig is created. Createdness and oneness is the same thing?
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The guy is either stupid, intellectually dishonest, or both. He still hasn’t SIMPLY accepted or rejected a SIMPLE premise from my side.
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Clearly they are not – being unitarian is vastly different to being uncreated – they are two separate qualities or attributes. You have conflated them into one attribute because you are incapable of explaining how your god’s oneness essence is diffferent to any animal’s
Just like being ‘ONE being’ and being ‘three persons’ are vastly different from one another – they are two separate qualities or attributes. You have conflated them into one attribute because you are incapable of explaining how your god’s ‘ONE being’ attribute is different to any animal’s.
Just like being ‘ONE person’ and being ‘part of the trinity’ are vastly different from one another – they are two separate qualities or attributes. You have conflated them into one attribute because you are incapable of explaining how the Father’s ‘ONE person’ attribute is different to any animal’s.
Thank you for bitchslapping yourself over and over and over and over, …
I’m starting to sound like one of your incompetent scholars named mikey.
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“The guy is either stupid, intellectually dishonest, or both. He still hasn’t SIMPLY accepted or rejected a SIMPLE premise from my side.”
He is both. You see they have there moronic self contradicting dogma that is SO BLATANTLY falls and goes against BASIC logic that they have to start inventing/using words like hypostasis or mystery or etc etc. And when we call it out for what it is (i.e. bullshit) then they jump to Islam and talk about Allah’s oneness somehow not making sense. Now they start mutilating the most simplistic thing about God in a desperate and pathetic attempt to “defend” the indefensible cus they have only two options: you either acknowledge your greek/roman pagan garbage as garbage or you deflect, dance around the issue, use fancy words, repeat yourself and pretend that refutes the bitchslapping you got on the very thing which you’re repeating and try and create this fictional “problem” about they’re being a problem with the most basic, simplistic and most logical thing there is (i.e the oneness of the One true God: Allah) while all the while ignoring your self invented argument (which is moronic beyond anything I have ever seen or heard) when asked to apply it on your pagan deity which consists of three deities while they are actually just one deity while they’re actually not while they actually are but are not.
This is the brain damage that their cult has done. Lord have mercy.
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What’s the issue?
My “oneness” is only a product of my relationship with other things similar to myself. I have arbitrary differentions.
God’s “oneness” is the fact that it’s intrinsically impossible for there to be anything either similar OR dissimilar from Him ﷻ.
And yes, the above ARE correlated with essential created/uncreatedness.
And anyway, no, we are NOT unitary (the word that idiot means instead of unitarian). We are UNIONS in a state of UNITY. Only God is unitary, and even that’s metaphorical because that entire lexicon refers to bodily composition and form, and GOD IS NOT A BODY.
I don’t understand what he doesn’t understand.
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*differentiations
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“The guy is either stupid, intellectually dishonest, or both. He still hasn’t SIMPLY accepted or rejected a SIMPLE premise from my side.”
it is lizzie schofield.
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i just don’t understand why lizzie is pretending to be shemale
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Is it really her though?
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just look at the video and tell me if you noticed anything difference between elizabeth hitler brian schofield and the brian,joel, kev character.
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abu t
“My “oneness” is only a product of my relationship with other things similar to myself. I have arbitrary differentions.
God’s “oneness” is the fact that it’s intrinsically impossible for there to be anything either similar OR dissimilar from Him ﷻ.”
LOL!! Allah’s oneness means that he is both like and unlike everything? How pantheistic of you.
You have just come up with a fancy way of using other attributes to explain allah;s oneness – which actually explains nothing. If allah’s attribute of oneness can only be described through reference to his relationship to other things, then his attribute of oneness is contingent.
This is why islam is so fundamentally irrational – you can’t describe a basic claim about your god without circularity. You are just repeating the claim that allah oneness is unique because he is incomparable.
Yahweh’s oneness is unique because it is multipersonal, allah has no such intrinsic uniqueness about his oneness – he is truly like a creature in his oneness.
You guys are truly brainwashed if you believe this rubbish.
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Wow. You’re dumb.
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And you had time to spew all this stupidity, but not enough to give a simple yes or no to the question I asked you? Amazing.
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atlas
“Just like being ‘ONE being’ and being ‘three persons’ are vastly different from one another – they are two separate qualities or attributes. ”
RUbbish. The quality of being three persons in one being is a unique attribute in its own right. Allah;’s oneness has no such uniqueness.
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It’s not unique, it’s a contradiction. Can’t happen. Intrinsically impossible.
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abu t
“It’s not unique, it’s a contradiction. Can’t happen. Intrinsically impossible.”
Yet, no muslim can explain how allah’s oneness is different to a wasp’s. I had hoped that you had moved past pompous proclamations and were going to start offering substantial arguments.
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abu t
“And you had time to spew all this stupidity, but not enough to give a simple yes or no to the question I asked you? Amazing.”
Still waiting for you to make a point you pompous twit.
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I can’t move on with the point until you answer though, moronic troll.
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abu t
“I can’t move on with the point until you answer though, moronic troll.”
You can make a point any time you want you self-important numbskull. I suspect you don;t actually have one to make
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Actually we need to go through it step-by-step because you don’t possess the requite knowledge to engage with the point. Your not wanting to go through the steps isn’t my fault or my problem.
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[[[The quality of being three persons in one being is a unique attribute in its own right. Allah;’s oneness has no such uniqueness.]]
I never said “How is the three persons in ONE being” attribute different from ours. You’re such a lying scum, it’s absolutely disgusting.
I said how is him being ‘ONE being’ different from ours. You glue the attribute three persons to the ‘ONE being’ attribute and pretend that that’s what I am arguing which just makes you a lying piece of trash.
According to your own argument if we say that your god’s ‘ONE being’ attribute is different because of his multi personality attribute then that makes them the same attribute. But they’re not the same attribute so you can’t differentiate the ‘ONE being’ attribute of your pagan deity on its own term (without bringing in the multi personality attribute). The same argument you use against Allah’s oneness attribute and His uncreatedness attribute.
What a disingenuous filth you are. Lying and lying to the point of no return.
So you loser. Get over it kid.
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So again you loser: how is the ‘ONE being’ attribute of your god different from ours without jumping to his multipersonality attribute?
I just love this! It SO obvious you got your ass handed to you joely.
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“I said how is him being ‘ONE being’ different from ours. You glue the attribute three persons to the ‘ONE being’ attribute and pretend that that’s what I am arguing which just makes you a lying piece of trash.”
isn’t trinitarianism forced to believe in a unitarian concept of god?
if i stretched one eye across 3 people and all 3 saw the same stuff , then we have a “unitarianized ” seeing ?
if EACH individual is a SELF and is able to see the other and see what the other sees, we have separate “seeing selves”
notice that either divine attributes unitarianize all 3 or trinitarian is forced to believe that each SELF in trinity has full experience of divine attributes BY ITSELF .
“divine nature” makes the persons into UNITARIAN or the trinitarian is forced to make each person experience the nature as a SELF.
i asked repeatedly this pagan lizzie:
when you hear one person speak, do you believe one is speaking or 3 are speaking ?
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abu t
“Actually we need to go through it step-by-step because you don’t possess the requite knowledge to engage with the point. Your not wanting to go through the steps isn’t my fault or my problem.”
Ooh, pompous!
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You use that word a lot. I don’t think it means what you think it does.
Anyway, Princess Bride references aside… care to finally answer the question so we can proceed with the point you keep begging me to make, or are you just going to keep trolling.
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atlas
You stopped making sense a week ago – clearly my demonstration that allah’s oneness is just like the oneness of creatures has sent you over the edge into hysterics.
“You glue the attribute three persons to the ‘ONE being’ attribute and pretend that that’s what I am arguing which just makes you a lying piece of trash.”
Glue? There’s no falsity on my part. In the doctrine of the trinity, god is three persons in one being – this is his nature.
Allah’s nature is not unique, he is one like a creature is one.
ANd why do you guys keep calling me joel?
Also, you, tony, heathcliff are the same person. Psycho.
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atlas
You stopped making sense a week ago – clearly my demonstration that allah’s oneness is just like the oneness of creatures has sent you over the edge into hysterics.
“You glue the attribute three persons to the ‘ONE being’ attribute and pretend that that’s what I am arguing which just makes you a lying piece of trash.”
Glue? There’s no falsity on my part. In the doctrine of the trinity, god is three persons in one being – this is his nature.
Allah’s nature is not unique, he is one like a creature is one.
ANd why do you guys keep calling me joel?
Also, you, tony, heathcliff are the same person. Psycho.
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abu t
I’d like to see you make a point.
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Round and round we go. Accept or reject the premises I presented you, and we can move forward. Move forward to what? The point.
Or don’t, and keep being a stupid little troll.
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Brian
RUbbish. The quality of being three persons in one being is a unique attribute in its own right. Allah;’s oneness has no such uniqueness.
I say;
There were so many 2, persons, 3 persons, 4 persons, 5 persons 1 being before and after your God Jesus Christ. Hindus, Idol worshipers, Rastafarians, Greeko/Romans have more Persons/persons 1 being before Jesus Christ was born. That is idolatry like and polytheism like Trinity.
Any Person/person is 1 being. Idolaters worship multi persons i.e. more than one person like Trinity and consider it unique but it is not unique but impossibility.
Any Person/person is a being. Worshiping 2, 3,4 and more Persons/persons is not unigueness but impossibility, polytheism and idolatry.
Thansk.
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abu t
What are you afraid of dude? Just make a point and we can move forward. I’m not participating in an interrogation. Make a point or shut up.
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How is asking you to affirm or deny a premise related to a point I wish to make an interrogation? What are YOU afraid of? I’m the one STILL trying to engage you in effective communication by asking you to participate.
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“Glue? There’s no falsity on my part. In the doctrine of the trinity, god is three persons in one being – this is his nature.”
so you imagine your god as triplet , but 1 ? has hyde park experience been too tough on you lizzi?
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“Glue? There’s no falsity on my part. In the doctrine of the trinity, god is three persons in one being – this is his nature.”
thats a pagan god which was created by humans because they weren’t happy with the idea of one single conscious echad yhwh. they PLURALISED him internally because of the love of multiplicity of gods in greek and hindu mythology.
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[Glue? There’s no falsity on my part. In the doctrine of the trinity, god is three persons in one being – this is his nature.]
And I wasn’t asking about the three persons. I asked about him being ONE being. Saying that it contains three persons is another attribute. Lying doesn’t help you.
Your god is: – ONE being
– three persons
– tripersonal oneness (which is just a self contradicting bs)
The third attribute is the combination of the first two.
I ask you about the first attribute, then you in your desperation mode jump to the second attribute (three persons) and combine them (so that you get attribute numero 3) and pretend that that answers my question. Bringing attribute numero 2 or 3 does not even begin to answer my question and you know it.
To say ‘the doctrine of the trinity’ and pretend that saying this makes attribute number 1 and number 2 not two attributes because they are mentioned within the same pagan doctrine is beyond moronic.
So AGAIN: how does attribute numero uno (‘ONE being’ attribute) differ from ours WITHOUT jumping to attribute numero 2 (and hence combining them to get numero 3)?
I’ll keep asking this over and over again but as always you wont have the balls to answer because it contradicts your own moronic argument.
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“Also, you, tony, heathcliff are the same person. Psycho.”
holy ghost fail, i aint atlas. lizzy , why do you make things up like mtthew, mark , luke and john ?
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Making things up is a ritual of worship in the mystery cult of the god of special pleading.
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tony/heathcliff/atlas/satan
“so you imagine your god as triplet , but 1 ? has hyde park experience been too tough on you lizzi?”
Wut?
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“wut”
lizzi
are you saying that the TRIPLETS are IN “being” like human MIND is in human BEING or are you saying that the TRIPLETS are 1 ?
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tony/heathcliff/atlas/satan
How about you have a go at explaining how allah’s oneness is unique, or different to mine?
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atlas/tony/heathcliff
“And I wasn’t asking about the three persons. I asked about him being ONE being. Saying that it contains three persons is another attribute. ”
Three persons in one being is a solitary attribute. WHen are you going to explain your god’s oneness? WHy can’t muslims explain this basic doctrine of their false god?
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so you saying that the 3 are single?
not “one of ” but SINGLE ?
So in other words B ?
triplets are single thing?
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Tony,
Yeah, ONE set of THREE. Or one genus comprised of three species, as per my original comment 😂
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”
Three persons in one being is a solitary attribute.”
i dont know whether she thinks this is LITERALLY single literally 1 as in SINgle or that she is seeing it in poetical way
it requires great force to make 3 into 1 .
you still have ONE, TWO AND three…
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the use of “in” and “are” is further confusing .
do you mean 3 peas in a box or do you mean the 3 peas are a box
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“Yeah, ONE set of THREE. Or one genus comprised of three species, as per my original comment 😂”
your understanding will correspond to which picture i posted earlier on ?
B?
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B
This genus/species thing is the only scheme they can go with that both (1) isn’t a self-contradictory intrinsic impossibility and (2) corresponds literally with the wording if their “doctrine.”
Dotrine. Duck latrine. Who knows anymore. Morons.
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So no one is willing to step and dawah me bad on allah’s oneness.
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I tried. You’re being an obstinate, intentionally obtuse little troll.
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“Three persons in one being is a solitary attribute.”
Wahaha.
NO answer as expected.
Pathetic loser.
I’ll copy paste my past comment and let’s see if you’ll be in denial.
Your god is: – ONE being
– three persons
– tripersonal oneness (which is just a self contradicting bs)
The third attribute is the combination of the first two.
I ask you about the first attribute, then you in your desperation mode jump to the second attribute (three persons) and combine them (so that you get attribute numero 3) and pretend that that answers my question. Bringing attribute numero 2 or 3 does not even begin to answer my question and you know it.
To say ‘the doctrine of the trinity’ and pretend that saying this makes attribute number 1 and number 2 not two attributes because they are mentioned within the same pagan doctrine is beyond moronic.
So AGAIN: how does attribute numero uno (‘ONE being’ attribute) differ from ours WITHOUT jumping to attribute numero 2 (and hence combining them to get numero 3)?
How is your pagan deity’s ‘ONE being’ attribute different from ours without jumping to his multipersonality attribute?
How is your pagan deity’s ‘ONE being’ attribute different from ours without jumping to his multipersonality attribute?
How is your pagan deity’s ‘ONE being’ attribute different from ours without jumping to his multipersonality attribute?
How is your pagan deity’s ‘ONE being’ attribute different from ours without jumping to his multipersonality attribute?
How is your pagan deity’s ‘ONE being’ attribute different from ours without jumping to his multipersonality attribute?
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Brian’s dishonest Christian missionary methodology:
-Base arguments in favor of Unbiblical doctrine of Trinity in misinterpretations of Biblical texts and “Plural references” to God which even the Jews did not and do not interpret as references to any form of Triune Godhead.
-Refuse to accept that each person of the Trinitarian Godhead is an attribute.
-Indulge in bias, by not allowing for incomprehensibility of Unitarian Oneness of God, but allowing for the incomprehensibility of the Trinitarian God (otherwise we can compare trinity to an egg).
-Deny all premises, terms, definitions, and reject basic principles and precepts.
-Engage in false strawman arguments, by dishonestly Misportraying Islamic theology.
-Engage in the fallacy of false equivalence by comparing created and creator.
-Engage in the fallacy of Petitio Principii, by denying all Muslim (and Jewish) Unitarian premises, and begging the question by assuming his own initial premise to be true, namely that Gods Oneness must be described on its own terms in order to demonstrate how said Oneness is different than creation. – If the Jews do not accept this premise, why should Muslims?
And finally:
-Act as if the Unitarian nature of God has been disproven.
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ibn
“Act as if the Unitarian nature of God has been disproven.”
Well you can’t explain allah;s oneness. That would solve the whole issue. Like I say, describing allah;s oneness in terms of other attributes makes false equivalences between them such that you have conclude the absurd.
For example, allah;’s oneness is different to mine because he is uncreated must require that we accept the silly premise that oneness and uncreatedness are the same thing. Clearly they are not.
So please actually make a convincing argument in favour of muslim tahweed.
Also, all of you guys have run away from the point that allah cannot enter his own creation without resorting to some kind of modalism – if as you maintain, he can enter creation (in “mysterious ways” LOL!!) then he absolutely MUST withhold some of his powers.
This HAS to mean that he either divides himself – a heresy – or that he temporarily exists in a state of diminished powers. In other words, he assumes a different form of existence at different times. hence, modalism.
Fnally, you can’t just assert that I have committed fallacies – you have demonstrate where I have done that. You won;t be able to because we both know I have not committed fallacies.
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Ignoring all your question begging, double standards, goal-post moving, and other inconsistencies, who said “he can enter creation?”
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You’re the one making false equivalences because you don’t know enough; you don’t know that saying a thing NECESSITATES another thing IS NOT the same as equating them (falsely or otherwise). You need to go and learn.
You also used “contingent” wrong in another one of your stupid comments. Since you keep mixing up terminologies and their proper applications, I’ll say it again: you need to go and learn.
IF you aren’t here just to waste time and otherwise be a trolling little nuisance.
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You see this is exactly why you are such a disgusting, filthy, lying, dishonest lil shit.
I took this moronic argument and just bitchslapped you with it and you still repeat yourself. Unbelievable!
You can’t use another attribute to distinguish the attribute in question from ours you say???
Can you then differentiate the ‘ONE being’ attribute of your pagan deity from ours without jumping to the multipersonality attribute? Can you differentiate the ‘ONE person’ attribute of the Father from ours without jumping to the ‘part of the trinity’ attribute?
No! So shut the f up and get lost kid.
According to your OWN argument (which is BEYOND stupid and idiotic and moronic with ZERO basis) if you say that the ‘ONE being’ attribute is different from ours BECAUSE he is multipersonal then that must require that we accept the silly premise that ‘ONE being’ and multipersonality are the same thing. Clearly they are not. Just a copy paste of your own shitty argument:
[[For example, allah;’s oneness is different to mine because he is uncreated must require that we accept the silly premise that oneness and uncreatedness are the same thing. Clearly they are not.]]
You have been answered and bitshlapped just like your predecessors. The reason why we referred to you as joel is because you are basically using the same bullshit as he was using.
He got bitchslapped and now you continue the legacy.
So for the millionth time crosstian:
Can you differentiate the ‘ONE being’ attribute of your pagan deity from ours without jumping to the multipersonality attribute?
Can you differentiate the ‘ONE person’ attribute of the Father from ours without jumping to the ‘part of the trinity’ attribute?
Now watch brothers as this loser can’t defend its own position and will STILL argue that he is somehow winning the “debate”. Look at the braindamage that this moron is suffering. Look at how he will deflect AGAIN and not have the balls to answer these two simple questions because he knows he is full of shit. Watch as how he will jump to the multipersonality and the ‘part of the trinity’ attributes and hence FAIL again and get bitchslapped again.
So come on loser let’s do this. Answer my questions honestly (which we all know ain’t gonna happen).
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It’s a disappointing fact that we should be dealing with this “Christian” troll as we would an Atheist; their beliefs both fall into the same category of absurd impossibility, and their lack of knowledge of basic theology is similar.
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His stupid argument is basically that language being what it is disproves tawhīd. Think about it. But don’t hurt yourself!
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“Also, all of you guys have run away from the point that allah cannot enter his own creation without resorting to some kind of modalism – if as you maintain, he can enter creation (in “mysterious ways” LOL!!) then he absolutely MUST withhold some of his powers.”
do you imagine your god has the attributes of a human being which lowers itself, enters into something, goes down…
do you believe that your god is really a human being even PRE-incarnation or do you believe that your god is creating new existences for himself in different locations?
it is the crosstian who says that in some MYSTERIOUS way even when his pagan god is HELD by creation that creation and “divine person” do not mix, explain this MYSTERIOUS unmixing of two different THINGS.
you still did not answer the questions i fired at you
before
god CREATED hell
god will PUNISH people in hell
will your god ENTER hell and FEEL his own WRATH
will he enter his OWN punishment ?
will he FEEL “backfire” of his own wrath ?
will he FEEL warm , hot or super hot?
if you say the shit that the 2 THINGS do not mix, then do you mean that god KEEPS his POWERS and PUNISHES while NOT losing them (powers) and FEELING the things which the OBJECTS will be feeling ?
how does a god get HELD BY HELL and not get MIXED by what he is HELD in ?
explain this “mysterious way” for us.
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abu t
“Ignoring all your question begging, double standards, goal-post moving, and other inconsistencies, ”
I’ve done no such thing – if I had, you would have demonstrated exactly where I’ve done it.
“who said “he can enter creation?”
Ibn ISsam claims that allah can enter creation in “ways we can’t understand”!!
Either way, both scenarios raise huge problems for islam and tawheed.
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Claiming that you’ve only done something if I demonstrate exactly where you’ve done it is fallacious. I don’t have time to quote you, and I’m doing all this on the mobile app while I work. You can’t escape your transgressions of sound logic just because I’m not pedantic enough to enumerate them individually, so stop trying to play that card.
Ibn Issam’s GROSS ERROR (which I actually pointed out, if I recall – but you’re not honest enought to mention) in claiming that is his own problem, not Islām’s or tawhīd’s. I’d think that’s another example of fallacious reasoning on your part.
Your entire reply was fallacious, which is actually typical. You need to go and learn.
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abu t
“You’re the one making false equivalences because you don’t know enough; you don’t know that saying a thing NECESSITATES another thing IS NOT the same as equating them (falsely or otherwise).”
Rubbish. How exactly does allah being uncreated NECESSITATE him being unitarian? Go and learn how to think – more thinking, less pomposity please.
“You also used “contingent” wrong in another one of your stupid comments.”
That should be “wrongly”, El Pomposito.
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A minor mistake in grammar, which I’m honest enough to admit to, pales in comparison to your completely irrational, illogical, disingenuous participation on this entire comment section. Pardon me for the momentary lapse of typing how I, an American from the South, speak. But feel free to pat yourself on the back (for all that’s worth).
Anyway, one necessitates the other because of the premises I laid out for you that you’ve yet refused to affirm or deny (for some reason, I’m sure).
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QUOTE :
Ignoring all your question begging, double standards, goal-post moving, and other inconsistencies, who said “he can enter creation?”
EVEN they don’t really believe it because even though their pagan god is HELD by creation , he does not mix with it in some mysterious way. i don’t know whether it is CASPER the holy ghost MOVING like the wind or that some kind of jinn is floating around . so the jinn is in one place, but then some space will not be containing him, so what does it even mean that casper the holy ghost is omni present?
casper the holy ghost is floating in creation but DOESN’T mix with it? if IN “feeling” it KEEPS it powers, then you SEPARATED it from change and UNIVERSE is changing, so if it is SEPARATE from CHANGE , then it is SEPARATE from the universe lol.
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abu t
“His stupid argument is basically that language being what it is disproves tawhīd. Think about it. But don’t hurt yourself!”
My basic argument is that muslims can;t explain how allah’s oneness is different to mine, or a duck’s. Nor can they explain allah’s attribute of oneness without referring to other attributes – that means the concept of tawheed is fuzzy at best.
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Your being resistant to an explanation which requires more than monologue isn’t my problem.
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toni
I might start believing in your silly concept of god if one of you guys shows the capacity to explain it without resorting to insults and hysterics.
None of you guys are able to even come close to explaining your tawheed intelligently and without referring to other attributes to give allah’s oneness any meaning.
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Either affirm or deny the premises I presented you.
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abu t
“Pardon me for the momentary lapse of typing how I, an American from the South, speak.”
That;s no excuse el pomposito. Someone with your haughty pomposity needs to speak and write proper like.
“Anyway, one necessitates the other because of the premises I laid out for you that you’ve yet refused to affirm or deny (for some reason, I’m sure).”
That’s mere assertion you pompous ass. This is what you should be demonstrating, not asserting. That;s why it helps to make a fully formed argument before you start demanding that people agree with you.
I suspect that this is how you became ensnared by islam – people presented you with half formed arguments and facts, and then snared you with “gotcha” moments. Sad.
So, explain how it is that allah cannot enter creation – or can, depending on your point of view. If he can enter creation, then he is a modalist god, since by necessity he must assume a different form of existence to do so. If he cannot enter creation, then he has entered a mode of existence from which he is excluded – in other words he has created a stone too heavy for him to lift.
While your at it, el pomposito, go ahead and explain allah’s oneness without referring to other attributes, and how his oneness is different to mine.
You have already all but admitted that this is impossible making allah’s attribute of oneness fuzzy.
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You know this is all one big tu quoque fallacy, right?
Anyway. I’m still giving you the chance to affirm OR deny, rather than demanding that you agree with, the premises of the argument I have yet to make because of your stubbornness. I can’t move on before that.
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“So, explain how it is that allah cannot enter creation – or can, depending on your point of view. If he can enter creation, then he is a modalist god, since by necessity he must assume a different form of existence to do so. If he cannot enter creation, then he has entered a mode of existence from which he is excluded – in other words he has created a stone too heavy for him to lift.”
this is what this pagan is saying :
the CREATOR (god) has WITHIN him the ATTRIBUTES of entering , lowering and going down like the human being has.
the creator is just a super human being
the creator is portrayed as entering into one to another EXISTENCE
“IF he assumes a DIFFERENT form…” then that means that god FORMED another form which means god CREATED himself
, god changes .
this then implies that god is of the same GENUS as creation .
what this all boils down to is that there must be DIFFERENT CREATED infinites within the crosstian god OTHERWISE god in his “CURRENT STATE” in ABSOLUTELY unknown and NEVER can be knowable.
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anything created is always by nature destructible , god in crosstianity has NATURES which are DESTRUCTIBLE , since he is unable to be KNOWN without becoming a form which is DESTRUCTIBLE.
the funny thing is that brain has to ADMIT that these NATURES are INFINITELY part of the triune god , OTHERWISE he would have to CHAnge the UNCHANGING yhwh
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abu t
“You know this is all one big tu quoque fallacy, right?”
Wrong.
“Anyway. I’m still giving you the chance to affirm OR deny, rather than demanding that you agree with, the premises of the argument I have yet to make because of your stubbornness. I can’t move on before that.”
Yes, go ahead and make an argument. I’m sure it will be underwhelming. Anyways, move on if you want, or keep playing this silly game.
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“Wrong.”
That’s just an assertion. Care to demonstrate?
If I make an argument based on premises you don’t agree with, even though you’ve been given ample opportunity, then I will have just wasted my time (or cast pearls before swine, in this case), and you can keep squirming around with your irrational bullshit. This is not how intelligent interaction goes.
You’re the one playing games. Grow up and go learn.
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abu t
“That’s just an assertion. Care to demonstrate?”
LOL!! Classic muslim reasoning. You make an unfounded assertion, I point out that your assertion is unsubstantiated and now you think the onus is on me to prove your unsubstantiated assertion is false. No wonder you believe in the nonsense of islam.
“If I make an argument based on premises you don’t agree with, even though you’ve been given ample opportunity, then I will have just wasted my time (or cast pearls before swine, in this case), and you can keep squirming around with your irrational bullshit. ”
Boohoo.
So you’ve got this incredible argument, but won’t make it in case I disagree with you? You’re dumb.
So, now we’re up to 350 comments and STILL not a single muslim on this blog has been capable of explaining allah’s oneness on its own terms, nor can they explain how allah’s oneness is different to mine.
This is the worst dawah ever.
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No. You’re just very stupid and not sincere at all. Again, go and learn some basic theology.
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Still waiting for a response loser. Ignoring me and claiming that no one answered you shows how even more pathetic you are.
Answer the two questions that I posed. But who am I kidding you’ll dance around the issue.
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check this out from “got questions”
God the Father is a Person with a mind (Isaiah 55:8–9), emotions (Psalm 78:40), and a will (1 Peter 2:15). God the Son is a Person with a mind (Luke 2:52), emotions (John 11:35), and a will (Luke 22:15). God the Holy Spirit is a Person with a mind (Romans 8:27), emotions (Ephesians 4:30), and a will (Galatians 5:17). All three Persons of the Trinity possess all the attributes of God (John 6:37-40; 8:17-25; Colossians 1:13-20; Psalm 90:2; 139:7–10; Job 42:2; 26:13; 1 Corinthians 2:9–11; Hebrews 9:14).
it identified 3 different persons
it says that EACH is BY itself ALIVE
not only is it a conscious SELF , but it also POSSESSES all the attributes of “god”
so the father WITH emotions and MIND is a SINGE person which is NOT the other person, how can this SINGLE person NOT be UNITARIAN when it is also BEING “god” in EXPERIENCE/FEELING?????
since it is a SELF it HAS ALL attributes of “god”
NOT that “god” here MEANS 3 persons lol
so how is the father NOT UNITARIAN in nature ?
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“All three Persons of the Trinity possess all the attributes of God”
this statement is not WRAPPING the word “god” AROUND “all three” this statement is not saying that “god” is being shared/divided BETWEEN the 3, they are saying each HAS all the attributes of god. this implies that FATHER with emotions is unitarian in nature.
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“Jesus was a divine person who took on human nature – not like any other human being.”
so you saying that your gods PERSON was actually “god the MAN ” on earth?
so you have “god the man ”
and “god the god” ???
so you saying that the invisible singular person PLUGGED himself into flesh and had FULL EXPERIENCE of being created ?
this logically implies that SOMETHING in an INFINITE god CHANGED and became something LIMITED and created .
so what in the INVISIBLE BEING became CREATED ?
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The contradiction that is the Trinitarian Doctrine is based on spaghetti logic, confusing, irrational, incomprehensible, and impossible to untangle.
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” Yahweh is one triune being who cannot be separated. ”
NO shitstian your brain and your bible SEPARATE your “hims” and ONES and beings.
if the father sends his son, then they have DIFFERED and no one will say that this action can be derived from “one being” because the TWO are differing
how many PERSONS FROM the trinity are currently filling you ?
is it PERSON MINUS being ?
is it PERSONS – being ?
is it being MINUS person ?
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“Don;t be wilfully ignorant. Jesus is a divine person who took on a human nature, during which he was fully human, simultaneously the father and holy spirit were not human. The trinity means that god exists as three persons in one being at the same time. We are not modalists.”
the father and holy spirit were not human HAHAHAHA lol
this is funny. so now 2 THINGS weren’t human, those 2 things were two persons which did not have experiences of the son who BECAME human ? do you see ibn anwar? the PERSONS are having EXPERIENCES AS SINGULAR persons , they are clearly not “one” in this.
inthis guys belief , two persons were not having EXPERIENCES of being human, but the son was EXISTING AS human being .
the trinity meant that god existed as human being , god and 3 persons lol.
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“………simultaneously the father and holy spirit were not human.” – Good catch I almost missed that!!!
Brian has committed heresy at least twice in his comments, saying that Jesus was not fully Human although according to Christian doctrine he was (and therefore a creature), and now saying that Jesus was not Fully Divine and inclusive of the Father and holy spirit.
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ibn
What on earth are you talking about? It is not heresy to say that the father and holy spirit were not incarnate. Who gave you that idea? And I have said clearly that jesus was had a fully human nature whilst remaining a fully divine person.
I think you are confused.
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“What on earth are you talking about? It is not heresy to say that the father and holy spirit were not incarnate. Who gave you that idea? And I have said clearly that jesus was had a fully human nature whilst remaining a fully divine person.”
hmmmmm
this is funny lol .
when god speaks , how many speakers?
but when god incarnates not all three incarnate LOL
they say “god is one” hahaahahaha
but ONLY 1 thing became something else LOL
what kind of joke is this?
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how can you comment here with your beliefs and not feel like a polytheist?u just paying lip service to “one god” but in reality you imagine god as a hindu imagines god. why do you deceive yourself in thinking you believe in “one god” ?
why does any crosstian?
at least a polythiest is open and clear, you just hiding behind WORDS “one god” even though you don’t believe in one god.
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“Don;t be wilfully ignorant. Jesus is a divine person who took on a human nature, during which he was fully human, simultaneously the father and holy spirit were not human. The trinity means that god exists as three persons in one being at the same time. We are not modalists.”
you are a modalist
you identified 1 thing as 3 different things hahhaahah
now do these 3 DIFFERENT things MAKE up 1? then each is a PART .
you are not only modalist but PARTIALIST or else you don’t know the crap u are uttering.
look
if u say that EACH person is fully experiencing that “one god” then you are a TRI theist . each is by itself a DIFFERENT person and each is NOT THE OTHER
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” Yahweh is one triune being who cannot be separated. ”
but the persons can dance around / the consciousness and plug it self into createdness.
you SEPARATE each person when you IDENTIFY each person as something OTHER than the OTHER person
you separate EACH person when you have one of them MAKING LOVE to the other person .
you separate one person from the other when you say they are RELATING to the other as SELVES
lol, you worship a company of INTERNAL yakhids
yhwh is just a pagan joke .
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Salaam Tony,
Great comments. but just try to keep your comments in the same string of conversation so that we know who and what you at replying to. Just scroll up to the original comment in the string of conversation and click reply and a comment box will open up for you to post your comment.
Also there is no need for foul language.
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ibn
tony and heathcliff are the same evil-hearted person. Creepy.
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i guess i am two persons by your logic.
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*Subsisting in one comments section
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Don’t forget that in Trinity believing Christians, Hinduism, voodooism, Greeko/Roman paganism etc. 2 or more Person/persons is the same as 1 Person/person/being.
We understand 1 Person/person = 1 Person/person/being.
Trinity believing Christians will counter and say, humans are 1 Person/person 1 being but God can be MULTIPLE Persons/persons 1 being.
Well that is what most idol worshipers think. More than 1 Persons/person 1 being. This is not the God of the Bible who said this;
“Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
“See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
“Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
“You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22
“For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?” 2 Samuel 22:32
“Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
“You are the God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
“O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
“You alone is Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6
“Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35
If God said He is one, only and alone. Where did you get the other 2 Person/being of Jesus and Holy Spirit whom God said they are nothing besides him?
A person/being is something not nothing. Unless you want to believe Jesus and HS are nothing. They cannot be part of God who said nothing is besides Him as God.
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Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but Christian theology places angels in the category of spirit beings. And this “spirit” is their substance, their material cause.
So the Christians on here, ignoring the contradictions and other fatal flaws, who are saying that their deity is a spirit are basically saying that their deity is, what, a schizophrenic super-powerful angel?
Right?
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And by “someone” I mean someone who’s got a firm grasp of Thomasian philosophy.
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Good point.
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I suppose it stands… nobody’s corrected me yet.
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250 comments and not one proof that echad yhwh is three things. even the yhwh in ot who comes down,even he is full thing lol.
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Tony,
Exactly. – but 250 comments? That’s nothing….
Christians have written and authored literally thousands of books, articles, treatises, letters, lectures, oratories, etc. etc. all on the doctrine of the Trinity. ……….and still not one valid proof for the Trinity….not even a valid proof from their OWN BIBLE!!!
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Over 250 comments and not one muslim is capable of explaining allah’s oneness.
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What do you except? Crosstianity is a dumb cult.
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The oneness of Allah(swt) is there in numerous places in the Bible (ex: Deuteronomy 32:39, 4:39, 6:4) , but “3 persons in 1 being” is not even mentioned once in the Bible.
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“Over 250 comments and not one muslim is capable of explaining allah’s oneness.” – Except we have….repeatedly.
Yet still no proof of Trinity from Bible or logical explanation..
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It is a fact that Muslims and Jews have a very similar understanding of God’s Oneness or Unitarian nature.
Therefore, any argument against the Islamic understanding of God’s Oneness, by default also argue against the Jewish understanding of God’s Oneness according to their own scriptures.
In consequence, any argument against the Unitarian nature of God in the OT, in turn, undermine the Christian claim that the NT Triune God is actually the same Unitarian God of the OT.
If OT god is Unitarian in the same way that NT god is supposedly Unitarian then there would be no need for Christian argument against Islamic or Jewish Unitarian understandings. The fact that Christians constantly argue this point establishes that there is a difference in the conceptualized doctrinal beliefs in regard to Unitarian nature of God.
Therefore, the implication is that the Unitary Oneness of the Trinitarian God is not perfectly the same as the Unitarian Oneness of the OT God of Abraham (the same God which Muslims worship)
It can then be concluded, that Trinitarians worship a DIFFERENT God, or at least a God that is merely a figment of their own collective imagination.
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Trinitarians worship a DIFFERENT innovated man-made false god or idol, or at the very least a “god’ that is merely a figment of their own collective imagination.
Many Christians who adhere to Trinitarianism have deluded themselves into sincerely believing that they worship the God of Abraham, when in reality, it is proven that they worship something else entirely different.
Thus Christian Trinitarianism could be described as the biggest and longest ongoing mass delusion ever expierienced in world history.
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ibn
“Therefore, any argument against the Islamic understanding of God’s Oneness, by default also argue against the Jewish understanding of God’s Oneness according to their own scriptures.”
As I stated much, much earlier, the OT is full of references to a plural god. Judaism prior to Jesus was far more diverse than it is today and the idea of a god that is a single being with more than one seat of consciousness was an accepted interpretation of the scriptures.
You are completely wrong about this. The more that scholars have come to regard jesus, the more the willingness of unitarian jews of the 1st century to accept him as a divine figure makes sense.
Modern orthodox judaism is the descendant of phariseeism – a sect whose religious practices jesus abhorred and condemned because it elevated human tradtiojs and the examples set by human rabbis above the words and commands of yahweh.
This is why jesus would have condemned islam whose foundation is the imitation of a mere human being whose own followers recorded that he had sinned in is life.
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That should say….
“the more than scholars have come to regard jesus as culturally jewish in a jewish context”…
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ibn
“Many Christians who adhere to Trinitarianism have deluded themselves into sincerely believing that they worship the God of Abraham, when in reality, it is proven that they worship something else entirely different.”
The god of abraham never required that his created being grovel on the ground to him. His agenda has always been to return man to fellowship with him. The true god – yahweh – already knows that humans are fallen creatures, not only prone to, but by nature (as dictated by their own choice) certain to sin, and are thus, already debased creatures.
Why, then, would he require that we perform meaningless “purification” rituals and grovelling prayer practices when he already knows we are debased by our actions? Despite this, in his infinite love he has kept the door open for us to return to fellowship with him. What can god learn from humans doing meaningless rituals that he doesn’t already know?
This is why muslims do not worship the god of abraham – yahweh wants fellowship with fallen humans, allah wants us to remain grovelling on the ground so that he can feel exalted. Is allah so lacking in self-confidence that he needs a bunch of humans to make him feel awesome?
Allah is not the true god, and is, thus, not the god of abraham.
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yhwh created easily corruptible creatures but even before he created them ,he had urge to get raped by gang of Roman pagans because he knew that his animal farm rituals will not calm him down. He set up a complex animal farm ritualistic system only to have it replaced by eating and drinking human sacrifice. yhwh had urge for human sacrifice all along and lied to his chosen ones that they could get right with him by listening to him and doing his laws .
“Fellowship” with yhwh is human sacrificial ritual and “fellowship” with yhwh is to remember that his nature causes him to punish himself like a fukin self abusing human being.
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are yhwhs rituals in the Torah “meaningless” or “righteous” now listen to this BITCH dance .
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https://scontent.fbhx1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/29683093_418487701942808_4378031406509276913_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=21d379ffb2fd713d1b7dc85546b00c52&oe=5B27B03D
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Brian
The god of abraham never required that his created being grovel on the ground to him. His agenda has always been to return man to fellowship with him. The true god – yahweh – already knows that humans are fallen creatures, not only prone to, but by nature (as dictated by their own choice) certain to sin, and are thus, already debased creatures.
Why, then, would he require that we perform meaningless “purification” rituals and grovelling prayer practices when he already knows we are debased by our actions? Despite this, in his infinite love he has kept the door open for us to return to fellowship with him. What can god learn from humans doing meaningless rituals that he doesn’t already know?
I say;
You do not follow Jesus because Muslims are repeating the rituals of Jesus christ. We follow Jesus Christ but you do not.
Proof:
Hebrews 5:7
Verse Concepts
In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety.
Luke 3:21
Verse Concepts
Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus was also baptized, and while He was praying, heaven was opened,
Matthew 14:23
Verse Concepts
After He had sent the crowds away, He went up on the mountain by Himself to pray; and when it was evening, He was there alone.
Mark 6:46
Verse Concepts
After bidding them farewell, He left for the mountain to pray.
Luke 6:12
Verse Concepts
It was at this time that He went off to the mountain to pray, and He spent the whole night in prayer to God.
Mark 1:35
Verse Concepts
In the early morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up, left the house, and went away to a secluded place, and was praying there.
Luke 5:16
Verse Concepts
But Jesus Himself would often slip away to the wilderness and pray.
Luke 9:18
Verse Concepts
And it happened that while He was praying alone, the disciples were with Him, and He questioned them, saying, “Who do the people say that I am?”
Matthew 26:36
Verse Concepts
Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to His disciples, “Sit here while I go over there and pray.”
Matthew 26:39
Verse Concepts
And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will.”
Matthew 26:42
Verse Concepts
He went away again a second time and prayed, saying, “My Father, if this cannot pass away unless I drink it, Your will be done.”
Matthew 26:44
Verse Concepts
And He left them again, and went away and prayed a third time, saying the same thing once more.
Mark 14:32
Verse Concepts
They came to a place named Gethsemane; and He said to His disciples, “Sit here until I have prayed.”
Mark 14:35
Verse Concepts
And He went a little beyond them, and fell to the ground and began to pray that if it were possible, the hour might pass Him by
Brian. It is only Satan/devil who will not pray. If you do not pray like Jesus everyday, Muslims do.
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Brian
If prayers is not good, Jesus would not have taught us to pray like this; Our Father who is in heaven…..;.
I know Christians do pray. You are the only one who is not praying. You are from the devils side. The devil has deceived you not to pray like Jesus but to follow him/devil thinking prayers is not needed.
Thanks.
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brian, are you elizabeth scofield?
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brian elizabeth briganza lol
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You’re not unique. Claimimg you are is just begging the question.
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abu t
You pompous dimwit.
So if they clone me, who would they end up with? Someone else?
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Just another contingent union composed of contingent beings and possessed of accidents. Yup. Hardly unique. Moron.
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brain,
does EACH person in trinity have a MIND ?
is the MIND in the person or does it EXIST outside of the person?
does each person in trinity possess divine attributes?
is it IN the person or do these powers EXIST outside of each person ?
if OUTSIDE , then are there two things which have been DIFFERENTIATED ? person and attributes?
if inside , then is the person his attributes?
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WCF, Chapter 2 Of God, and of the Holy Trinity
1. There is but one only,a living, and true God, who is infinite in being and perfection, a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts and passions, immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, most wise, most holy, most free, most absolute, working all things according to the counsel of his own immutable and most righteous will, for his own glory
3. In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost:
2. God hath all life,a glory, goodness, blessedness, in and of himself; and is alone in and unto himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creatures which he hath made, nor deriving any glory from them, but only manifesting his own glory in, by, unto, and upon them.
He is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things; and hath most sovereign dominion over them, to do by them, for them, or upon them whatsoever himself pleaseth. In his sight all things are open and manifest, his knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature, so as nothing is to him contingent, or uncertain.
He is most holy in all his counsels, in all his works, and in all his commands. To him is due from angels and men, and every other creature, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience he is pleased to require of them.
3. In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost:
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you identified three separate things which you then wrap up/cover up with words like “unity”
you cant think that god is 3 and existing as 1, thats just saying that 3peas are one box.
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Erasmus
3. In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost:
I say;
The above is polytheistic gods.
Why? Counting.
God the Father=God #1.
God the Holy Spirit = God #2.
God the Son = God #3.
Thefore polytheism is Trinity God. 3 Gods. I did not say that but the above statement by a Trinitarian Christian.
If a Rastafarian add 4 God as Emperor Haile Selaissie of replace him with one of the Persons/person, will you not count the God head as 3 or 4 Gods?
Hindsus and most idol worshipers including Greeko/Roman believe have more Gods/Persons/cows/monkeys/elephants etc. and consider all as one God. Will you accept them as 1 God? If no, then do not expect us to accept your number of Persons/persons as 1 God.
Thanks.
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erasmus, read the answer provided by “god questions”
each PERSON has EMOTION and a mind. it HAS it.
each person also HAS everything which “makes up”
god
“god” is not DIVIDED between the 3, each has EVERYTHING which makes up god and each has EMOTION, will and MIND
emotion, will and MIND is produced from the knowledge of the person.
emotion, will and mind is not WRAPPED around 3
how can you wrap it around three and say that there are 3 persons?
there are 3 persons and there is 4th person
the 4th persons will, emotion and MIND is wrapped around 3 would CREATE 1 person .
because it is only 1 will, 1 emotion and 1 mind. BUT THE trinitarians ARE not saying this. they have 3 DIFFERENT persons who are not each other and EACH have on its own ALL the stuff which makes up god.
this is PROPER polytheism .
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toni/heathcliff/atlas
“you cant think that god is 3 and existing as 1, thats just saying that 3peas are one box.”
You don’t make any sense. The bible clearly describes three figures who possess qualities of personhood and who are all described as god, whilst simultaneously proclaiming the oneness of god.
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quote :
As is typical in missionary writings, Islamic theology is portrayed as having a distant God, that Christianity is superior to either Islam or Judaism because God is within Christians through the Holy Spirit. Here’s the problem though, does God have to be spatially within us for our hearts to be renewed? Christians themselves refute this idea by saying that God is truly a Spirit in nature and not a material being, “God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.” – John 4:24, therefore what is the reasoning for God having to be spatially (materially) within us for us to be guided? Therefore this concept that God must be spatially within us for any of us to be guided is both irrational and self-contradictory. The Qur’an itself responds to this claim, it says:
“And We have already created man and know what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than [his] jugular vein.” – Qur’an 50:16.
God is closer to us, without having to be in the material world. God’s sovereignty is such that space does not affect what He can and cannot do, so the belief that a God from afar is somehow less superior than a God that is “within us” does not make any sense. This fundamentally means that Christians believe God is not all powerful and that God somehow loses power and ability based on distance. Yet, I’m sure if we ask them if God loses power based on distance, they’d disagree, yet they’d gladly offer this as an argument for the truth of Christianity in a book about Islam, as is seen above. This sort of deceptive inconsistency permeates throughout Christian missionary works.
//////
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toni/heathcliff/atlas
“God is closer to us, without having to be in the material world. God’s sovereignty is such that space does not affect what He can and cannot do, so the belief that a God from afar is somehow less superior than a God that is “within us” does not make any sense. ”
That sounds like an apologetic for the incarnation. It is also the fallacy of special pleading – “allah is near to us in mysterious ways!!!”.
The true god – yahweh – is close to us because he can be. He is sovereign over creation and can enter at will.
Allah is reliant on a satanic-like molester “angel” who confused mohammed so much that he thought he was possessed. If allah is close to us in “mysterious ways!!!”, and space does not affect what he can do, then why does he need other beings to interface with humans on his behalf? He seems to be a dispossessed god.
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When we say that God is near us without being in creation that is not considered to be a LOGICAL fallacy. Your pagan moronic god however is not one god but three gods and no matter how much you play the verbal gymnastics game of throwing in the word ‘person’ and the word ‘being’ into the self-contradiction it will still remain a self contradiction: A, B and C all equal X but yet A, B and C are not equal to one another. If you want to believe this, an error that a three year old can see, is not a self contradiction then I’ll let you live in your delusion.
And if you want to pretend that God becoming man is not a logical fallacy (because to be man means NOT to be God) then I’ll let you play that game as well. The fact is that our God is the one True God who is the Almighty and who is far above from becoming part of creation. It’s the very fact that He is the Most Glorious and worthy of All praise that makes Him more than a loser god who becomes a man because that means he takes on the attributes of man that are not the attributes of God and hence cannot have doesn’t have those attributes in the first place.
Allah isn’t ‘reliant’ on angels. What kind of moronic response did you just give? Since when does not being affected by space imply being in need of other beings?
Leave that moronic dogshit cult before it completely fries you brain (or whatever is left of it).
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“: A, B and C all equal X but yet A, B and C are not equal to one another.”
X= fully Y and fully B
Y does not mix with B
but X mixes with Y AND B
hahahaha wtf is this ? lol
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Erasmus
April 10, 2018 • 4:47 pm
My belief, based on the whole of the bible, is that three persons are one and the same Jehovah Lord God who made heaven and earth.
Based on the revelation starting at Genesis 1 v 1 and ending with Revelation 22 v 21 KJV.
Arguments that don’t start with this revelation don’t count for me. I only have to believe what is either asserted by this bible or can be logically derived from it.
I say;
The Jews who have their scriptures in their own language and revealed to their prophets never believed God is “3 Persons/persons 1 God”. Even Christians do not believed God is “3 Persons/persons 1 God” because Jesus never preached that, but Jesus preached “One God who is only and alone”
Proof:
John 20:17
New International Version
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'”
John 17:3
New International Version
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
to be continued…….
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Brian
The true god – yahweh – is close to us because he can be. He is sovereign over creation and can enter at will.
Allah is reliant on a satanic-like molester “angel” who confused mohammed so much that he thought he was possessed. If allah is close to us in “mysterious ways!!!”, and space does not affect what he can do, then why does he need other beings to interface with humans on his behalf? He seems to be a dispossessed god.
I say;
You do not pray but some Christians do pray like Jesus. Muslims also pray like Jesus. You are anti prayers, so Satan is in your brain. Satan is telling you not to believe in Angels who work for God. Christians believe in Angels, Muslims and Jews also believe in Angels. What do they do? The work for God. Satan is telling you not to believe in Angels and because you worship Satan.
Hebrews 13:2
2 Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers, for by so doing some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it.
Hebrews 1:14
14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?
Brian. If your God is entering his creations at will, why will He be sending Angels?
Islam, Jewish and some Christians God is mighty, majestic and pure to enter His creations which is impure, small and imperfect.
Thanks.
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atlas
“When we say that God is near us without being in creation that is not considered to be a LOGICAL fallacy. ”
It is a fallacy – it is the fallacy of special pleading. If your “god” is too transcendent to enter his creation, then he is too transcendent to “be near” us. It really isn;t that hard. Your thoughts and emotions are not magical sprites that mysteriously appear in disembodied form from our brains. They have physical properties – chemical and electrical properties that are physical.
Your “god”, therefore, must interact with physical objects if he is to “be near” us. You are relying on mystery because your concept of god is silly.
” A, B and C all equal X but yet A, B and C are not equal to one another. ”
You shouldn’t repeat philosophical arguments that you don;t understand – it makes you look silly.God is father, son and HS, one in will, three in person. You commit the fallacy of affirming the consequent – your argument (actually not your argument you probably mindlessly repeated after hearing it from your imam hate preacher) only makes sense if the triune god has three wills. He doesn’t he has one – you are presenting a strawman.
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They have physical properties – chemical and electrical properties that are physical.
Your “god”, therefore, must interact with physical objects if he is to “be near” us. You are relying on mystery because your concept of god is silly.
///////////
okay, so your triplet god MUST have physical propeties within his divine nature right?
before time and universe was created, your god yhwh, must have had physical properties in him, right?
when there was no universe, god couldn’t have known anything UNLESS there were physical properties EMBEDDED in gods being.
when yhwh OVERSHADOWED his mum, then there MUST ahve been physical overshadowing
do you agree?
you have to agree.
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“God is father, son and HS, one in will, three in person. You commit the fallacy of affirming the consequent – your argumen
only makes sense if the triune god has three wills. He doesn’t he has one ”
you have 3 identical circles , the only difference is that one is blue, the other is orange and the other is green
you have 3 identical pagan triplets, why aren’t they the same person ?
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toni/atlas/heathcliff
“okay, so your triplet god MUST have physical propeties within his divine nature right?”
Wut?
“before time and universe was created, your god yhwh, must have had physical properties in him, right?”
LOL!!
This is what happens to people’s brains when they convert to islam.
Christian theology accepts that the true god – yahweh – can interact with his creation in any number of ways. It does not mean that he “MUST” have physical properties, although it does mean that he can take on physical properties.
You have actually – LOL!! – highlighted a problem with islam’s concept of your “god”. You are the one’s who claim that allah cannot enter his own creation in any way. That MUST mean that he cannot interact with physical properties of his created objects, yet, you claim that he can – but only in “mysterious” ways.
This is why none of you guys are capable of explaining how your “god’s” oneness is different to created beings – tawheed is self-refuting contradiction.
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toni/atlas/heathcliff
“you have 3 identical circles , the only difference is that one is blue, the other is orange and the other is green
you have 3 identical pagan triplets, why aren’t they the same person ?”
Christians don’t think yahweh is a circle. Triplets aren’t the same person. Yahweh is not triplets.
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toni/atlas/heathcliff
“you have 3 identical circles , the only difference is that one is blue, the other is orange and the other is green
you have 3 identical pagan triplets, why aren’t they the same person ?”
Christians don’t think yahweh is a circle. Triplets aren’t the same person. Yahweh is not triplets.
////
so avoid answering the question
each person is IDENTICAL to the other person
example
father is born the same time as his son
son has EXACTLY the same power ,strength , knowledge etc as his son
why aren’t they the same person ?
when they speak they speak as “one”
so you don’t hear 3 speakers, you hear one speaker.
when they do a deed , they do the same thing.
why is it that jesus is not his own dad?
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“atlas
“When we say that God is near us without being in creation that is not considered to be a LOGICAL fallacy. ”
It is a fallacy – it is the fallacy of special pleading. If your “god” is too transcendent to enter his creation, then he is too transcendent to “be near” us. It really isn;t that hard. Your thoughts and emotions are not magical sprites that mysteriously appear in disembodied form from our brains. They have physical properties – chemical and electrical properties that are physical.
Your “god”, therefore, must interact with physical objects if he is to “be near” us. You are relying on mystery because your concept of god is silly.
” A, B and C all equal X but yet A, B and C are not equal to one another. ”
You shouldn’t repeat philosophical arguments that you don;t understand – it makes you look silly.God is father, son and HS, one in will, three in person. You commit the fallacy of affirming the consequent – your argument (actually not your argument you probably mindlessly repeated after hearing it from your imam hate preacher) only makes sense if the triune god has three wills. He doesn’t he has one – you are presenting a strawman.”
[ If your “god” is too transcendent to enter his creation, then he is too transcendent to “be near” us]
This pre assumes that being near us = being close in creation. This is false and you know it. If your god needs to be in creation to be ‘near us’ then you have a weak, pathetic god.
If you can’t prove God can be near us without Him entering creation then don’t even bother responding cus it’s obvious you are doing damage control.
“Your thoughts and emotions are not magical sprites that mysteriously appear in disembodied form from our brains. They have physical properties – chemical and electrical properties that are physical.
Your “god”, therefore, must interact with physical objects if he is to “be near” us. You are relying on mystery because your concept of god is silly.]
What kind of an idiotic response is this???
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How does [Your thoughts and emotions are not magical sprites that mysteriously appear in disembodied form from our brains. They have physical properties – chemical and electrical properties that are physical.] imply [Your “god”, therefore, must interact with physical objects if he is to “be near” us. You are relying on mystery because your concept of god is silly.] in ANY way??? Are you THAT braindead???
“” A, B and C all equal X but yet A, B and C are not equal to one another. ”
You shouldn’t repeat philosophical arguments that you don;t understand – it makes you look silly.God is father, son and HS, one in will, three in person. You commit the fallacy of affirming the consequent – your argument (actually not your argument you probably mindlessly repeated after hearing it from your imam hate preacher) only makes sense if the triune god has three wills. He doesn’t he has one – you are presenting a strawman”
1. If what I said is silly then your pagan trinity is silly. Your own doctrine says three persons in one being. The Father (A) is fully God (X), the Son (B) is fully God (X) and the HS (C) is fully God (X) but yet the Father, the Son and the HS are different from one another (i.e A \= B \= C). If you think that I don’t notice how you ignore what I said and simply throw out the word ‘silly’ in a desperate attempt to magically refute what I said then you are more pathetic than I thought. In that last bit of your comment you didn’t answer what I said. You are going against your own trinity. So answer this again instead of jumping to (O his will or O his whatever):
The Father (A) is fully God (X), the Son (B) is fully God (X) and the HS (C) is fully God (X) but yet the Father, the Son and the HS are different from one another (i.e A \= B \= C).
2. Even the pathetic attempt that you made just has more holes in it than a Swiss cheese. They have ‘one will’??? So then throw your bible out the window cus it jesus says:
John 6:38
“For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me”
So the Son and the Father have different wills.
Congrats you are an idiot.
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The Father (A) = Yahweh (X) and The Son (B) = Yahweh.
If A and B are different (and they are according to your pagan doctrine) and since they have different wills then they can’t be the same Yahweh. What kind of bullshit is this dogma, wahahahaha.
The most MORONIC piece of garbage I have EVER seen. Everyone knows this is bullshit and yet look, just look at the horseshit they come up with to pretend it’s not a self contradicting bullshit.
Unbelievable!!! How is this possible? How????
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atlas
“A, B and C all equal X but yet A, B and C are not equal to one another.”
Yawn.
Still not getting it?
A, B, and C are equal in substance and will, yet three persons. Your strawmen are making you look silly.
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So, we have another explanation for 3 in 1 – All 3 have the “same will”.
Bible differentiates between will of Father and Jesus (as) so it’s not a “shared” will, and although the will of Jesus(as) is shown to be submitting to that of the Father, this is no reason to say they are one. It only means they are 3 persons working in an agreement.
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tiyaan
The person of the divine logos took on human nature and was thus, subject to the will of the father. There is no contradiction.
Maybe you want to have a go at how allah’s oneness is different to all the other creatures in creation? Your co-apologists have no idea.
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“Maybe you want to have a go at how allah’s oneness is different to all the other creatures in creation? Your co-apologists have no idea.”
okay answer these questions
DOES each person in the trinity have MIND and emotion ? does the mind and EMOTION exist INTERNALLY within EACH person or does it EXIST outide of each person. i am saying, does your god have its “brain” EXTERNAL from its person or internal?
does each person POSSESS attributes which “make up ” god?
is it INTERNAL within EACH person and if yes, then is each person his attributes , if not then are the ATTRIBUTES OUTSIDE of the three triplets?
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“A, B, and C are equal in substance and will, yet three persons. Your strawmen are making you look silly.”
so , you are born the same time as your mother, you have EVERYTHING your mother has, when your mother does deeds, you do them too,
how are you not the SAME person as your mother ?
so when the crosstian realises this, he changes his language :
it is the crosstian who says that jebus has EVERYTHING the father has
that can only mean that he DOES NOT have all the PROPERTIES of the father and he cannot have ALL THE properties of the triune god.
lol
it is just sameness which is NOT identical . it is “one” “by nature” meaning POETICAL bullshit . not a LITERAL and real oneness.
for this reason i say, why aren’t you a polytheist and keep hiding behind oneness when you have each individual NOT EXISTING AS THE other
do you see that “NOT EXISTING AS THE OTHER”
it is you like u have your mothers features but you a completely DIFFERENT person, we call this in english “polytheism”
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I didn’t say their wills are contradicting. The point was each will was separate although in agreement, and so that doesn’t make it 1.
“Maybe you want to have a go at how allah’s oneness is different to all the other creatures in creation? Your co-apologists have no idea.”
It has become more of a semantic discussion, once you claimed “one being and tripersonality” is a single attribute. As such a thing is illogical, this claim has become a subjective point which
I cannot agree to or disagree to.
As I mentioned before, Allah(swt)’s oneness is present in the Bible, but “3 in 1” is not there anywhere in the Bible. Bible is completely silent about it to the extend that even a 4 or 5 does not contradict any verses either. I would rather follow that which is clear and historical rather than illogical and non-scriptural.
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“The person of the divine logos took on human nature and was thus, subject to the will of the father. There is no contradiction.”
there you go with your shit “took on”
the person is identified as FULLY human and fully god
this would mean that the single PERSON
/fully god and fully man as COMPLETE person is SLAVE of the father
meaning SUBJECTED person
which then means that when he as fully god and fully man is EXPERIENCING being subjected, then the god part is SUBJECTED too.
meaning the fathers WILL dominated OVER fully god and FULLY man
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“the person is identified as FULLY human and fully god”
Well, that’s another problem Tony. It’s illogical like a square circle and there is no evidence for it either. The closest Bible says is in (Philippians 2:5-8) where it mentions about Jesus emptying himself from the form of God. It doesn’t give the idea of a “fully human, fully god” person, but more of a transformation from one to another.
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[[[Still not getting it?
A, B, and C are equal in substance and will, yet three persons. Your strawmen are making you look silly.]]]
O I’m getting it. I’m getting your bullshit game that you play, your typical mental/verbal gymnastics.
Firstly they are not equal in will as jesus himself says:
Luke 22:42
“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”
John 6:38
“For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.”
So the Son and the Father have different wills. So you don’t even know your own self contradicting bullshit.
Bitchslap number one.
Secondly
I said A, B and C are different and you talk about them being equal in substance and will (even though they’re not) which has nothing to do with my argument. Talk about turning things upside down by attaking strawman and right after that accusing the other of strawmanning while he has done no such thing. My response is not strawman but YOURS is.
The argument is that they are different, not that they don’t have anything that is equal. If the father, son and HS are all yahweh and they are still different from one another (as your pagan doctrine stay that the father is not the son and the son is not the HS and the HS is not the father) then that’s a contradiction.
Bitchslap number two, ergo you and your pagan doctrine is pure bullshit..
Q.E.D
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My belief, based on the whole of the bible, is that three persons are one and the same Jehovah Lord God who made heaven and earth.
Based on the revelation starting at Genesis 1 v 1 and ending with Revelation 22 v 21 KJV.
Arguments that don’t start with this revelation don’t count for me. I only have to believe what is either asserted by this bible or can be logically derived from it.
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“My belief, based on the whole of the bible, is that three persons are one and the same Jehovah Lord God who made heaven and earth.”
they are not “one” they are 3 SEPARATE things which DIFFER from each other. the father exists as father because he does not EXIST as the son. you
just DUMPING “one” over them to fool your pagan triplet worshipping brain. you worship 3 gods. 3 things which are AWARE of each other. why do you pay lip service to monotheism ?
why not just come out and say that you worship 3 gods?
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Erasmus
April 10, 2018 • 4:47 pm
My belief, based on the whole of the bible, is that three persons are one and the same Jehovah Lord God who made heaven and earth.
Based on the revelation starting at Genesis 1 v 1 and ending with Revelation 22 v 21 KJV.
Arguments that don’t start with this revelation don’t count for me. I only have to believe what is either asserted by this bible or can be logically derived from it.
I say;
The Jews who have their scriptures in their own language and revealed to their prophets never believed God is “3 Persons/persons 1 God”. Even Christians do not believed God is “3 Persons/persons 1 God” because Jesus never preached that, but Jesus preached “One God who is only and alone”
Proof:
John 20:17
New International Version
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'”
John 17:3
New International Version
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
to be continued….
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…..continued
Everyone believes God is one, only and alone. Jews, Christians, Muslims and most idol worshipers believe God is one, only and alone. Sects like Trinitarians, Hindus, polytheists have added persons, things, cows, monkeys, man(either Jesus, Sai Baba, Haile Selaissie etc.) to the one God as multipersons/things God.
Those sects like Trinity believing Christians, Hindus, the Pagans of Mecca, voodoo worshipers will insist they worship one God but their Gods can be counted and that is idolatry and polytheism. After Jesus Christ, most of his followers did not believe in Trinity God, until defined at councils upon councils and later persecutions.
God cannot decieve His prophets by letting them know that He is 1, only and alone, then later says He is he is not only 1 but with 2 other Persons/persons. He must have to tell Abraham that “later in life I will chabnge to 3 Persons 1 God” or “I will progressively add others to myself”.
Thanks.
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Over 500 comments and the loser still can’t answer the questions!
What a lowlife piece of shit!
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“The true god – yahweh – is close to us because he can be. He is sovereign over creation and can enter at will.”
yhwh IDENTIFIED as an INVISIBLE god
yhwh identified as a CREATURE .
CLEARLY the CREATURE has properties that the INVISIBLE yhwh lacks.
so the god currently filling you, can you smell, touch , taste , see or hear it? is it in the form of casper the holy ghost?
you are a form worshipping piece of shit .
your god is close to you ONLY when he takes on NEW properties which his invisible being DOES not have.
the visible pagan super human DOES NOT have EVERYTHING the invisible being has .
his powers which have been given to him are intermittent and he needs PERMISSION to say “i am ” ( i of MY OWNSELF CANNOT do anything…)
the higher god has absolutely no experience of the god who is delivered and gang raped by pagan romans, HERE WE IDENTIFY two different gods
the higher god WATCHES while the incarnated one gets smothered .
the higher god CLEARLY DIFFERS from the delivered god
all you have to do is admit that you worship a CREATURE who is co-eternal with the invisible yhwh .
“You don’t make any sense. The bible clearly describes three figures who possess qualities of personhood…”
emotions, will, knowledge, self consciousness. all SINGLE persons .
”
and who are all described as god,”
each possess the ATTRIBUTES and each as a SINGLE SELF EXPERIENCES the attributes it possesses . we call this 3 gods.
”
whilst simultaneously proclaiming the oneness of god.”
in other words you just said that 3 peas are one box.
you IDENTIFIED 3 SEPARATE things and then you plugged them into “oneness”
what kind of bs is this?
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The funny thing is that when they say ‘we worship Jesus’ then according to their own terminology they are man worshipers. Because Jesus is ONE person that has man nature and god nature. If you say you worship jesus then you worship a person that has the god nature AND the man nature and hence yo worship man as well. But of course they’ll play the denial game and do verbal gymnastics and cut their own mangod into pieces and all of a sudden he is ONLY God now when we talk about worshiping him and when something ungodly needs to be explained he is all of a sudden ONLY man.
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atlas
Christians do not worship jesus’ human nature – he is the person of the divine logos who took on a human nature.
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“Christians do not worship jesus’ human nature – he is the person of the divine logos who took on a human nature.”
is jesus fully human person and fully divine person which is 1 person ?
so logos “took on” a meat puppet mask or did it actually become a human being?
if it became an actuall living breathing human being with human thinking , how can you like a fukin heretic say that you do not worship human person and divine person , 1 person ?
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And there you go ladies and gentlemen. If you mention something that can’t be explained by the human nature then you jump to the god nature and pretend that that’s a refutation.
When you say you worship Jesus I am talking about the PERSON who has both natures. For you to ignore that and just jump to the god nature and say ‘no no no we just worship the god nature part of jesus’ is FALSE. You can only worship a person. And jesus according to xtianity is a person that has two natures. So when someone worships him, he worships him completely without splitting him up cus of convenience.
It’s a deal that comes with the whole package. If you worship someone then you worship the person fully.To worship jesus means you worship the person and since he is fully man as well, that means you are manworshipers.
Congrats.
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atlas/toni/heathcliff
“If you mention something that can’t be explained by the human nature then you jump to the god nature and pretend that that’s a refutation.
When you say you worship Jesus I am talking about the PERSON who has both natures. ”
The divine logos took on human nature, but that doesn’t mean I worship jesus’ human properties. You’ve got nothing.
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idiot. you are saying now that your god ADDED a human plaster to himself and then PEELED it off. WRONG . your god BECAME a human being and is fully human and fully god, 1 person. you worship 1 person meaning fully human AND fully god.
so yes, you worship HUMAN properties because your god EXISTED as human being.
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how can you not worship a human when your BELIEFS entails that yhwh has CREATED co-eternals within his being ?
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You’re a fucking idiot brain. Your pagan mangod is both human and nature so yes you do worship a man. There you go lads look at how he just does the very same thing I said he would do. They say they worship jesus, then I point out the obvious and then they jump to ‘the Son taking on human flesh’ so they want to focus on the person that is only god now but with the ability to become man but that’s not what I said. I said that jesus IS man and allegedly god. So to worship him means you worship his humanity. Look at how pathetic these scum are. They’ll just lie and lie right in your face and pretend to have some honesty in them.
Braindead morons.
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By Tony:
[idiot. you are saying now that your god ADDED a human plaster to himself and then PEELED it off. WRONG . your god BECAME a human being and is fully human and fully god, 1 person. you worship 1 person meaning fully human AND fully god.
so yes, you worship HUMAN properties because your god EXISTED as human being.]
Exactly brother! But don’t expect these lying scum to have any honesty in them.
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atlas/demon
“One being and 3 person are DIFFERENT attribute you lil shitstain. My God’s oneness is uncreated.”
Okay, which of jesus’ human qualities do christians worship?
No christian worships jesus’ humanity.
Now go ahead and explain allah’s oneness? Remember using other attributes to describe it equates those two attributes, so you can;t say allah’s oneness is different because he is uncreated because that means that the two are identical.
Your “god” is one in the same way benjamin netanyahu is one.
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“Okay, which of jesus’ human qualities do christians worship?”
are you born a retard ? do you see how you are avoiding the question. your god EXISTED as a human being . do you see that word “EXISTED” ? in orthodoxy the “Logos” is IDENTIFIED as fully human and fully god. WHICH means it is ORTHODOXY which forces crosstians to worship the fukin 1 person IDENTIFIED as fully human and fully god. you like a prick, SEPARATE and say which PROPERTIES…. you worship ALL the human properties because your god is 1 person. your brain NATURALLY would worship everything the one person is.
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“Your “god” is one in the same way benjamin netanyahu is one.”
And your God is one in the same way people having multiple personality disorders are one.
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QUOTE :
Your “god” is one in the same way benjamin netanyahu is one.
an analogy for trinity is two testes developing the SAME time in the womb. yhwhs oneness is like the oneness of two balls
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an this prick is the one who argued not long ago that his god is like hot gasses, light and heat hahahah what a prick,
his gods oneness is a nuclear reaction hahahaha
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tiyaan
“And your God is one in the same way people having multiple personality disorders are one.”
Not really – people with multiple personality dosorders often have conflicting wills and personalities. I’m still waiting for you guys to inform everyone how your “god’s” oneness is different to a human being’s.
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but they still have MULTI PERSONALITY prick! and what about the hindu gods? when do they ALWAYS disagree? even their wills are “ONE”
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you said “your gods oneness different from”
i need to see your ANSWERS to each of these questions first because then i can show you that each person in trinitary is unitarian like a GOAT
does EACH person in trinity have a MIND ?
is the MIND in the person or does it EXIST outside of the person?
does each person in trinity possess divine attributes?
is it IN the person or do these powers EXIST outside of each person ?
if OUTSIDE , then are there two things which have been DIFFERENTIATED ? person and attributes?
if inside , then is the person his attributes?
” The bible clearly describes three figures who possess qualities of personhood and who are all described as god”
so you aGRee then INTERNALLY within each person EACH has a MIND? the mind is INSIDE EACH person, yes or no ?
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///when do they ALWAYS disagree? even their wills are “ONE”///
just BOX TOGETHER all the AGREEING hindu gods in ONE housing and what do you get other than trinity? and why is yhwhs love making internally within him just 3, why not an INFINITE number of persons ?
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“Not really – people with multiple personality dosorders often have conflicting wills and personalities. I’m still waiting for you guys to inform everyone how your “god’s” oneness is different to a human being’s.”
So, now you are moving to other attributes like “possible conflicting wills”. That’s the problem with your criterion. You pick and choose what constitutes a “single attribute” and maintains that no other attribute should be used to make a difference.
If by “oneness”, you just mean the count of 1, then yes it’s not different. But, Yahweh is also 1. No difference.
So, come up with a consistent criteria and not a self-refuting one, and then we can evaluate. Until then, by your own standards, your concept of “god” is similar to that of a creation – a multiple personality disorder patient.
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Brian
Not really – people with multiple personality dosorders often have conflicting wills and personalities. I’m still waiting for you guys to inform everyone how your “god’s” oneness is different to a human being’s.
I say;
Trinity Gods too have conflicting wills. God The Son(Jesus’s) will is different from the Father. Jesus’s will conflict with the God The Father’s will. Their will conflict with each other.
Proof:
Luke 22:42
New International Version
“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”
God’s oneness is not MANY. It is uncountable but creatures oneness is countable i.e. goats oneness are MANY. There is no one goat out there. There are many goats. Every thing can be MANY ones but God is ONLY ONE WHO IS ALONE. The Bible said.
Proof:
“You alone, Lord, is God.” Isaiah 37:20
JPS Tanakh 1917
Now therefore, O LORD our God, save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that Thou art the LORD, even Thou only.
“Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.” Isaiah 43:10
“I am Yahweh, and there is none else.” Isaiah 45:18
“And Yahweh will be king over all the earth; in that day Yahweh will be the only one, and His name the only one.” Zechariah 14:9
Brian, your Trinity God oneness has to use his other attribute of 3 to define his oneness. It is just like triplets twins. Or other 3 Persons/persons gods of Greek/Romans, Hindus etc. Dr. Lane Graig said your Trinity God is like a 3 headed dog of hades.
Thanks.
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Intellect, you missed Brian’s new hypothesis. The 3 persons have 1 will. Looks like Trinity is an ever evolving mystery.
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“God’s oneness is not MANY. It is uncountable but creatures oneness is countable i.e. goats oneness are MANY. There is no one goat out there. There are many goats. Every thing can be MANY ones but God is ONLY ONE WHO IS ALONE. ”
This should have settled the debate 2 weeks before. But, Brian’s response then was “I see no uniqueness in any unitarian being. All creatures are unitarian,allah is unitarian, allah is a creature, ergo.”
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[[[Okay, which of jesus’ human qualities do christians worship?]]]
All of them. Jesus is (allegedly) god and man. So to worship jesus comes with the whole package. To worship jesus means to worship a person that has both natures (allegedly). So yes you are man worshipers.
But now you have to play the ‘slice the pie’ game where you slice your pagan mangod up and only focus on his (alleged) divinity. This is false since jesus is ONE person. You cannot help but to divide him which isn’t possible (which early xtians try to do cus some of them believe he was two persons LOOL). So when something can’t be explained on the human part, you jump to his divine part and vice versa. This is heretical! Your own scholars are telling you this you idiot. You are NOT allowed to slice jesus up since he is one person. When an argument comes up that bitchslaps you, you are NOT allowed to say ‘o this only concerns his divine part and not his human part’. In other words when jesus says something or does something or has characteristics (that are mostly attributed to him since he never claimed them)
like for example ‘worthy of worship’ (God forbid!) then this must apply to both natures. Jesus being one person doesn’t allow for the ‘slice the pie’ game. This is exactly the reason why there were early xtians who held this view and that’s why they thought jesus was literally two persons.
But you can’t help yourself, i know! You can’t defend the indefensible.
Sad panda.
[[[No christian worships jesus’ humanity.]]]
Yea keep telling yourself that. If that’s the case then he ain’t human and hence the double nature is pure bullshit (which it is anyways).
[[[Now go ahead and explain allah’s oneness? Remember using other attributes to describe it equates those two attributes, so you can;t say allah’s oneness is different because he is uncreated because that means that the two are identical.]]]
I will if you (after me so many times asking you but you playing the avoid game like the lil cowardly shit that you are) explain how the father’s ‘one person’ attribute is different from ours. Remember using other attributes to describe it equates those two attributes, so you can’t say the father’s ‘one person’ attribute is different because he is ‘part of the trinty’ because that means that the two are identical.
I will if you explain how the yahweh’s ‘one being’ attribute is different from ours. Remember using other attributes to describe it equates those two attributes, so you can’t say the yahweh’s ‘one person’ attribute is different because he of his multipersonality (disorder) because that means that the two are identical.
But but but but the trinity has three persons in them and the father is is is not alone cus there two more persons he like to do the tango with and and and…
Don’t give a rats ass about your trinity nor you ‘existence of other persons’ since that’s not what I asked and they are different attributes. So take your strawmans and shove it up your *** and give real answers .
Good luck!
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tiyaan
“If by “oneness”, you just mean the count of 1, then yes it’s not different. But, Yahweh is also 1. No difference.”
So you guys worship a digit? The problem is that you guys cannot define what you mean by “one”, or “oneness”.
“Every thing can be MANY ones but God is ONLY ONE WHO IS ALONE. ”………..This should have settled the debate 2 weeks before. But, Brian’s response then was “I see no uniqueness in any unitarian being. All creatures are unitarian,allah is unitarian, allah is a creature, ergo.””
This definition of oneness satisfies the christian concept of god – yahweh is completely unique, and alone in his solitary uniqueness. He is one and triune.
Allah is not – humans are one just like him in his onenss.
Saying “allah is one because he is alone” is circular and gives no explanation of what his oneness actually means.
The true god – yahweh – is so radically different from anything in his creation, that even his oneness is unique. This is what one would expect from a being who exists in all every dimension.
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“….So you guys worship a digit? The problem is that you guys cannot define what you mean by “one”, or “oneness”….”
Worshipping digit ? Lol. Do you worship a false equation 1+1+1=1 ?. When Bible says Yahweh is one, it means only 1 thing. Only a brainwashed person can see a 3-in-1 in that verse. Qur’an says Allah(swt) is Ahad. Ahad has the meaning of uniqueness, without any peers as already explained by others before.
“….Allah is not – humans are one just like him in his onenss.”
Humans are not one. Humans are at present more than 7 billion in number, and many more were dead in the past.
“…Saying “allah is one because he is alone” is circular and gives no explanation of what his oneness actually means…”
No, it’s not. The “only one” is different from “one of many”. Oneness doesn’t need further explanation. It’s 3-in-1 that needs an explanation which the Bible lacks.
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Brian
“Every thing can be MANY ones but God is ONLY ONE WHO IS ALONE. ”………..This should have settled the debate 2 weeks before. But, Brian’s response then was “I see no uniqueness in any unitarian being. All creatures are unitarian,allah is unitarian, allah is a creature, ergo.””
This definition of oneness satisfies the christian concept of god – yahweh is completely unique, and alone in his solitary uniqueness. He is one and triune.
I say;
Yahweh never said He is “triune”. Where did you get the triune from? From satan I guess. Tri means 3. 3 Persons/persons are never unique. They are like creations who are 3 Persons/persons or like other gods who are Greeko/Roman Pagan gods, Hindu gods or voodoo Gods. There is no uniqueness in a 3 Persons.Dr. Lane Graig said Trinity is like 3 headed dog of hades(hell).
Yahweh said clearly He is one, only and alone and no one else. 3 Persons/persons are 3. One of the 3 Persons/persons cannot say he is alone, one and only when there are other 2 Persons/persons who are different from him i.e. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit is that the Son is not the Father. I hope this truth enters into your brain and take you out of the satanic thinking God is 3 when He said He is one, only and alone.
3 Persons are not alone but 3 people. 3 Persons are not 1 but 3. One God is not bi=2, tri=3, quad=4, hex=5 etc. There are so many trinitarian, binatarian, quadruple and many multi personal gods before and after Jesus Christ. There is not uniqueness in this.
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you know, these guys believe that their gkd actually exists as THREE DIFFERENT THINGS.how can you bend your mind and force ONE over THREE DIFFERENT ONES WHICH ARE SINGULAR THINGS???????
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Brian
Allah is not – humans are one just like him in his onenss.
Saying “allah is one because he is alone” is circular and gives no explanation of what his oneness actually means.
The true god – yahweh – is so radically different from anything in his creation, that even his oneness is unique. This is what one would expect from a being who exists in all every dimension.
I say;
2, 3, 4, 5 or any multi Person/person God is not unique but polytheism i.e. worshiping multiple Persons/persons as God. Some idol worshipers has multiple Persons/persons as God and their God exist in all dimension. Those worshiping 10 Persons have more dimensions than those worshiping 3 Persons/person like Tinity Gods.
Allah’s oneness is not MANY BUT 1. Creature oneness is MANY. There is no 1 goat or one Person/person out there for Trinity God but MANY GOATS or MANY Persons/persons as Trinity God.
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“This definition of oneness satisfies the christian concept of god – yahweh is completely unique, and alone in his solitary uniqueness. He is one and triune.”
1. lol u piece of crosstian SHITSTIAN
when yhwh SPEAKS one is hearing ONE SPEAKER,One being just like one HEARS one human speaker,human being
so all those statements with singular pronouns implies a single being who has ONENESS like a SINGLE human being
you can have the triplets love making, but the “one being” causes each of them to SPEAK as one human would speak meaning yhwhs SPEAKING BEING is LIKE SPEAKING human being.
or else say that EACH person is speaking by himself and then we would hear THREE beings, but whatever the case, yhwhs BEING and our BEING is ONE
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you can shove harry,steve and jonathan mclitchy in ONE human being, but what we see is a single speaking BEING and the point is that yhwhs Being is ONE like one humam being SINCE THE “OUTPUT” in sight, hearing, speaking is “one being hearing speaking and seeing”
so can you explain how yhwhs oneness is DOFFERENT from a DONKEYS oneness ???
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Still repeating yourself? Still no balls to answer my questions?
As expected!
Thx for proving your argument is pure bullshit and that it can be used against your own pagan god.
Run loser, ruuuuuuuuuuuuun!
How is the father’s ‘one person’ attribute different from ours WITHOUT jumping to the ‘but but but there are also 2 more persons and and and he is part of the trinity god’ attribute?
How is yahweh’s ‘one being’ attribute different from ours WITHOUT jumping to the multipersonailty attribute?
Just answer these questions you cowardly shitstain. You are pathetic as is your non existing god. Where are you microscopic balls? Why do they shrink to nanoscopic balls when confronted with the truth???
Are you that cowardly? Is this bullshit cult of yours that indefensible? Are you that pathetic that you are so afraid to answer my questions?
You can’t defend your moronic god. I ask you CRYSTAL clearly:
How is the father’s ‘one person’ attribute different from ours WITHOUT jumping to the ‘but but but there are also 2 more persons and and and he is part of the trinity god’ attribute?
How is yahweh’s ‘one being’ attribute different from ours WITHOUT jumping to the multipersonailty attribute?
and all you can do is be the fucking cowardly shitstain that you are and dodge my questions and come up with your trinity which I don’t give a fuck about! Wasn’t asking about it.
ANSWER the questions.
How is the father’s ‘one person’ attribute different from ours WITHOUT jumping to the ‘but but but there are also 2 more persons and and and he is part of the trinity god’ attribute?
How is yahweh’s ‘one being’ attribute different from ours WITHOUT jumping to the multipersonailty attribute?
How is the father’s ‘one person’ attribute different from ours WITHOUT jumping to the ‘but but but there are also 2 more persons and and and he is part of the trinity god’ attribute?
How is yahweh’s ‘one being’ attribute different from ours WITHOUT jumping to the multipersonailty attribute?
How is the father’s ‘one person’ attribute different from ours WITHOUT jumping to the ‘but but but there are also 2 more persons and and and he is part of the trinity god’ attribute?
How is yahweh’s ‘one being’ attribute different from ours WITHOUT jumping to the multipersonailty attribute?
How is the father’s ‘one person’ attribute different from ours WITHOUT jumping to the ‘but but but there are also 2 more persons and and and he is part of the trinity god’ attribute?
How is yahweh’s ‘one being’ attribute different from ours WITHOUT jumping to the multipersonailty attribute?
How is the father’s ‘one person’ attribute different from ours WITHOUT jumping to the ‘but but but there are also 2 more persons and and and he is part of the trinity god’ attribute?
How is yahweh’s ‘one being’ attribute different from ours WITHOUT jumping to the multipersonailty attribute?
How is the father’s ‘one person’ attribute different from ours WITHOUT jumping to the ‘but but but there are also 2 more persons and and and he is part of the trinity god’ attribute?
How is yahweh’s ‘one being’ attribute different from ours WITHOUT jumping to the multipersonailty attribute?
But you won’t!!! Because we all know what will happen. We all know what the answers to these questions are:
The father is one person just like I am one person and no matter how many other persons there are besides him, no matter the son or the holy potato, the father is still one person. So according to your absolute dogshit logic: he must be like me!
Yahweh is one being just like I am one being. Being three personal doesn’t change that. He still remains ONE being like me. So yahweh is like me!
Bitchslapped over and over and over again.
But the response will be:
but but but but but the trinityyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy is soooooo differeeeeeeeeeeeent.
and so yet again the fucker won’t answer the question and claim a hollow victory.
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Over 500 comments and the loser still can’t answer the questions!
What a lowlife piece of shit!
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he very slimey bastur maggot.
to catch this slimey maggit , just understand this :
cup is plastic
ruler is plastic
bottle is plastic
so the “ingredient” or “make up” is the same
but then watch him switch quickly when he forces “one being” over all three persons and says
jonathan mclatchie, james white and sam shamoun are “one human being”
so when yhwh speaks, it is ONE being speaking like one human BEING speaking (his own logic makes yhwh have oneness like a human has oneness)
in one instance “one” means “ingredient” and then a QUICK shift where it means “one being”
but then your “one being” ACTS LIKE a SINGLE person speaking as ONE person :
I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me,
this implies that brain is FORCED to think that the “oneness” of yhwh “OVERPOWERS” each person by SINGULARIZING it as UNITARIAN speaker
man , even a person who did not go to school will get it,
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tiyan
“When Bible says Yahweh is one, it means only 1 thing.”
The bibles does say that the Lord is one, but i also describes a god who exists in plurality. And there is only one of him. Your description could apply to the true god of the bible.
Your answer is banal.
“Humans are not one. Humans are at present more than 7 billion in number, and many more were dead in the past.”
Every human being who has ever existed is unique in their oneness – in the near future we will be able to clone humans and every clone will reproduce the same human being. You won’t clone mohammed and end up with someone other than mohammed.
“No, it’s not. The “only one” is different from “one of many”. Oneness doesn’t need further explanation. It’s 3-in-1 that needs an explanation which the Bible lacks.”
Yes it is, and now you have committed the fallacy of special pleading. Yahweh is not one of many – he is one being with a plurality of persons. There is no one like him. Allah is a solitary person – like each and every human being. Everyone is like allah.
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intellect
The OT and NT teach -clearly – that god is one being with a plural personhood. The quran is corrupted and so does not agree with the real scriptures. Abraham and Moses themselves describe a god who is plural in his one being.
Allah’s oneness is banal – he is one like cows, cats, and cougars.
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brother intellect, the ot does not teach plurality within god,if that were the case the jews would have worshipped clouds ,fire,angels and humans
https://judaismresources.net/2014/11/20/childishly-easy-an-open-response-to-charles/#comment-41625
and here
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“The bibles does say that the Lord is one, but i also describes a god who exists in plurality. And there is only one of him. Your description could apply to the true god of the bible”
see people? This is the mind of retarded being. god is 1,then in same breath god is PLURAL
then in same breath SHIFT back to one ,but imagine PLURALITY. this is self RAPE of human brain. Self rape.
so when your god is speaking how many ones are speaking and how does the singular SPEAKING BEING NOT SHARE the same ONENESS AS SINGULAR SPEAKING HUMAN BEING??????
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toni/heathcliff/satan
“see people? This is the mind of retarded being. god is 1,then in same breath god is PLURAL”
Classic! LOL!!
Not one of you guys is even capable of defining what allah’s oneness even means, nor how it is different to a cow’s. The words “yahweh is one” makes little sense in the absence of plurality – your ignorance and inability to actually define what oneness means is clear evidence of this.
Why would the true god remind us of his solitary beingness unless he possessed qualities of plurality that make him seem like more than one?
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“Why would the true god”
your god is not “true” it is mythological fiction created by lovers of plurality of gods.
” remind us of his solitary beingness
unless he possessed qualities of plurality that make him seem like more than one?”
what are you talking about ? what QUALITIES of plurality?
when your god speaks AS a SINGLE being , then do you agree that your god shares the SAME oneness as a SINGLE speaking HUMAN being ?
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now like partridge said , don’t FUSE the 3 persons attribute with the BEING. don’t confuse your whos and your whats. when your WHAT is speaking , does it HAVE the same oneness as a SINGLE SPEAKING human being ?
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”
Not one of you guys is even capable of defining what allah’s oneness even means, nor how it is different to a cow’s”
did you explain how yhwhs oneness is different from two testicles in one sack?
so two things EXIST in one thing
3 things exist in one thing
explain why yhwh and my testicles do not share in the same oneness?
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Brian
Not one of you guys is even capable of defining what allah’s oneness even means, nor how it is different to a cow’s. The words “yahweh is one” makes little sense in the absence of plurality – your ignorance and inability to actually define what oneness means is clear evidence of this.
Why would the true god remind us of his solitary beingness unless he possessed qualities of plurality that make him seem like more than one?
I say;
Oneness means the fact or state of being one in number.
“belief in the oneness of God”
When Adam was created, his oneness is like God’s oneness i.e. only Adam as human being. When Eve was created, Adam and human’s oneness seizes to be like God’s oneness because humans are not one in number. Humans are MANY. To keep deceiving yourself as if there are no other humans in addition to one human makes you a brain dead person. No wonder your name sounds like brain dead. No Christian on this platform is following your nonsense. You keep repeating this brain dead argument and no Christian is supporting you on that. They consider you brain dead.
God is one in number and Trinity God is 3 Persons/person in number just like any 3 Person/persons, 2 Persons/persons or multi persons.
Trinity God is like 3 cows i.e. 3 creations. Allah is 1, only and alone. Cows are not alone, there are other cows like Trinity God who is not alone but together with other Person/persons. Trinity God cannot be 1, only and alone when there are other Persons/person included in his composition.
Thanks.
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Brian
Why would the true god remind us of his solitary beingness unless he possessed qualities of plurality that make him seem like more than one?
I say;
God could remind us of his plurality by saying “I am 3 Persons/persons 1 God” instead of this;
“Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one!” Deuteronomy 6:4
“You alone is Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6
“This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God” John 17:3
God keep reminding us He is one because the Israelites added more gods like golden cow to Him to make him 2 things like Trinitarians are adding Jesus and other things just like idolaters do to Him. He is not reminding us that He is solitary because He is plural.
Brian dead person. How can somebody keep reminding you that he is black for you to say he is white because he possessed white quality? Only brain dead will think that way.
Thanks.
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“Every human being who has ever existed is unique in their oneness”
No, it’s the other way around. Many properties and characteristics of human beings make each human being unique. It has nothing to do with oneness. Any human being is one of many, but Allah(swt) is not. Clear difference. Your criteria has failed.
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I waited so long and this loser doesn’t dare answer me? Okey.
Crosstians so weak to defend their own bullshit.
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brain, why don’t you worship the sun ?
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DO not forget that he believes that his god CAN appear in different forms.
his god can ENTER into createdness and EXPERIENCE it .
whatever we see around us is created and not God. everyone agrees.
so all the theophanies had to be CREATED .
jesus was fully human and he was CREATED .
the father is INVISIBLE, so father does not have what jesus has, meaning two different things.
i want to know why this crosstian , using his own beliefs, does not go out and take the sun as his god
we know that the sun is causing the earth to spin (monotheists believe that it is God who is really the trigger /controller WITHOUT his power MIXING with createdness)
brain objects and says that his god is EXPERIENCING the createdness .
https://heath2017.imgur.com/all/
brain, tell me one good reason why you should not bow before your lord and SAVIOUR “the sun” ?
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does EACH person in trinity have a MIND ?
is the MIND in the person or does it EXIST outside of the person?
does each person in trinity possess divine attributes?
is it IN the person or do these powers EXIST outside of each person ?
if OUTSIDE , then are there two things which have been DIFFERENTIATED ? person and attributes?
if inside , then is the person his attributes?
” The bible clearly describes three figures who possess qualities of personhood and who are all described as god”
so you aGRee then INTERNALLY within each person EACH has a MIND? the mind is INSIDE EACH person, yes or no ?
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The Logos has equality with the Father by nature because it is God. It is subordinate to the Father through the human nature which it has assumed.
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since you worship the logos along side with the father, you are a polytheist.
you take “the word” as an identity and you say it has the same nature as the father, but you are proving to us that “one” in your religion just means “shared nature”
it is poetical bs. the word “god” in your sentence is just shared thing . you really are a POLYTHEIST.
x has everything y has but x is not y and x in its person experiences NATURE . ON its own. by itself. polytheism .
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“The Logos has equality with the Father by nature because it is God”
so then why don’t you just worship two gods then or two co-equal gods instead of FUSING the two together and covering them with “because it is god”
why not just admit you think of two DIFFERENT things and stop deceiving yourself that 3 PEARS ARE 1 box ?
you said “logos has EQUALITY….by nature”
but crosstians say they TAKE different roles .
father is doing x
son is doing x
the son does not JUMP into the person of the father to PERFORM x, they must be TAKING different roles as INDIVIDUALS in everything like creating, ruling , governing etc etc
“by nature” will not cover up the problem that we are seeing individual pagan ACTORS here .
“by nature” will not cover up the problem that EACH person has not the foggiest of what it is to BE his OWN father or his own ghost
“by nature” will not cover up that each is a person AWARE of the other
“by nature” will not cover up that each is a ROLE player
so chose options
1. you god is a team/ group/ company of things
agree or disagree?
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“It is subordinate to the Father through the human nature which it has assumed.”
This can’t work cus he says in Revelation 3:12 (when he is back in his full glory):
“Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of MY GOD, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of MY GOD, and the name of the city of MY GOD, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from MY GOD: and I will write upon him my new name”
He still calls him ‘my God’ even he is in his full glory.
And btw the subordinate argument is a really bad one cus a mere subordinate being doesn’t worship the being he is subordinate to.
A woman is subordinate to her husband but he is not her god. She doesn’t worship him nor is he higher in value.
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B-But the Logos is still subordinate to the Father even in Divine Nature as all authority in Heaven and Earth was GIVEN to the Logos (Matt 28:18), according to the Hypostatic Union Jesus was still Fully God and his Divine Nature was distinct from his Human Nature, so didn’t his distinct Divine Nature already possess Authority in Heaven at that time?
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“The Logos has equality with the Father by Nature…”
What about in terms of Authority? Why was Authority GIVEN to the Logos?
“It is subordinate to the Father through the human nature which it has assumed.”
So he wasn’t subordinate to the Father before “Becoming Flesh”? Why didn’t the Logos possess Authority then?
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@Erasmus, ah i see now, so you’re one of those guys who believe in equality on in terms of nature…that’s why i was confused…sorry misunderstanding you….
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* “…only in terms of nature….”
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“. It is subordinate to the Father through the human nature which it has assumed.”
is the subordination communicated to the “divine person” which is also identified as the “human person” ?
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John identifies the Logos with God, and differentiates him from God at the same time. Then he defines this differentiation in terms of the Father Son relation.
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“John identifies the Logos with God, and differentiates him from God at the same time. Then he defines this differentiation in terms of the Father Son relation.”
logos is word
does the logos have words of its own? are the words of the logos differentiated with the logos ? you put them in a relationship ,
relationship requires two separate existences and in relationships conversations take place so then the logos chats with his father. they are a couple. the relationship has to work in terms of behaviour towards each other. one behaves as son , the other respects his father as his parent.
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Seems like roleplay…
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“The Logos has equality with the Father by nature because it is God. It is subordinate to the Father through the human nature which it has assumed.”
lets assume that you are born the same time as your father (same age)
you have same power and strength as your father
the human nature , according to crosstian ORTHODOXY still makes CLAIMS as the father
” i am”
but this same person says :
For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.
but the trinitarian jesus has everything his father has and he has full access/is the one who is “one” in commanding because they all have same thing .
why is “god on earth” requiring permission to say ” i am yhwh” ?
1. the son is playing a stage play and PRETENDING
2. the son is not pretending, the human nature DOMINATED over his mind
lets say that you have everything your father has , you are born the same time and you have the same power as your father
you subordinate to your father even though you are same age and have same power
1. you are pretending and say that “my father is greater than me”
2. your NEW nature dominated (lets assume you took on animal nature) and caused you to say ….
but this only show what i was originally showing
in christianity you have visible and changed gods who all must be co-eternal otherwise yhwh can never come in relationship with creatures.
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brian
, you are born the same time as your mother, you have everything your mother has . when she gives birth you give birth too.
how will one differentiate your person with your mothers person ?
by making you DIFFERENT from your mother, right?
so when she is doing something, you must taking a different role in that something and neither of you MIX (your person does not fuse with hers)
now put this in the trinity and tell me why aren’t you a POLYTHEIST ?
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toni/atlas/heathcliff
“now put this in the trinity and tell me why aren’t you a POLYTHEIST ?”
This is as dumb as it gets.
Yahweh is one in will, thus, there is only one god, three persons.
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Yes the trinity bs is as dumb as it gets.
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QUOTE :
Your thoughts and emotions are not magical sprites that mysteriously appear in disembodied form from our brains. They have physical properties – chemical and electrical properties that are physical.
QUOTE :
Christian theology accepts that the true god – yahweh – can interact with his creation in any number of ways. It does not mean that he “MUST” have physical properties, although it does mean that he can take on physical properties.
end quote
okay, so how does yhwh know what moses was thinking in his mind ? how did yhwh INTERACT with these PHYSICAL properties?
what does “take on” mean ?
the invisible BECOMES visible ?
yhwh NEEDS to become visible to know invisible thoughts ?
BEFORE creation even came to be , how did yhwh KNOW what moses was thinking when there was no physical ?
”
You have actually – LOL!! – highlighted a problem with islam’s concept of your “god”. You are the one’s who claim that allah cannot enter his own creation in any way. That MUST mean that he cannot interact with physical properties of his created objects, yet, you claim that he can – but only in “mysterious” ways.”
before the universe, there was no physical property ?
how did god bring into existence physical properties?
god is invisible and is not physical. god said “let there be light”
this is gods involvement in creation
it is an interaction.
it is a communication with an object which becomes physical in its being.
how did the pagan triplets do this?
how did this INTERACTION take place when god did not EVEN ENTER his creation ?
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toni/atlas/heathcliff
“okay, so how does yhwh know what moses was thinking in his mind ? how did yhwh INTERACT with these PHYSICAL properties?……….yhwh NEEDS to become visible to know invisible thoughts ?”
Yahweh can enter creation at will – interacting with physical properties isn’t a problem for christianity. It is a problem for the false doctrine of tawheed.
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Brian
Yahweh can enter creation at will – interacting with physical properties isn’t a problem for christianity. It is a problem for the false doctrine of tawhee
I say;
It is not true that God enters his creation at will because He is mighty, pure, perfect, majestic for His creation. God is too big, pure, perfect and mighty to enter His creation. God sends His angels to the creation to work for Him(God).
God cannot be physically in an unholy places. God cannot be in a shit. God said “do not go near an idol” so God is not in the idol. So it means God is not physically in His creations.
He knows His creation and closer to them than their neck vein. He created everything and knows everything. When He sends angels, He(God) is not physically present where He sent them but His infinite knowledge permits Him to see everything.
To say God has to enter His creation before He can know them is to limit God. It means He has to enter into latrine/shit hole/sink hole to know sink hole? Our God never enters into a sink hole. Even Christians will not put Bible in a latrine. How will they put God in a sink hole? God enters His creation at will Brian? For what? To know us? You limit God. He knows us without entering into our latrine. Does God has to enter unholy place to know there?
When God revealed His light(not Himself) to stone for Moses, the stone melting and disappeared. This show that God is mighty than His creation and cannot enter it. It does not go with His majesty.
Satan is in your brain because you want God the way you want. Watch this video may be you will convert to Islam.
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brother intellect, his god is in SHIT , because his god has shit as co-eternal being in yhwh . you see, he can’t imagine how it is POSSIBLE for god to INTERACT and INITIATE without becoming physical and created himself. so his god literally is in shit and all other created things.
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so you have NO UNIVERSE, NOTHING , no PHYSICAL properties EXCEPT 3 triplets making love to each other,
then they as a team decide
“let there be light”
AND now there is a thing called the sun and stars and moon
did the triplets have to enter something to interact and bring in to existence material properties?
did they form it from themselves ?
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yawn….still waiting for Polytheist Trinitarian Jesusians to biblically prove the assumption that we have 3 Eternal Triplets in which we have 2 of them who engage in some sort of cringy Father-Son role-play and a holy spirit who is smart enough not to take part in it….
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lol
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toni/atlas/heathcliff
“did the triplets have to enter something to interact and bring in to existence material properties?”
Yahweh is not triplets. And the rest of your comment makes no sense either. The islamic concept of god is self-refuting and you have trapped yourself in the lie.
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it makes perfect sense you son of a bitch!
it exposes mofo like you when you say shit about the islamic concept.
so i’ll ask again
yhwh is INVISIBLE
sun, moon, stars ALL physical , DID NOT EXIST before they EXISTED .
how did they even come to be?
answering this question will DESTROY you because you will have to either
1. CHANGE your god
2. say he has CREATED finites within him
3. say he can DO ANYTHING WITHOUT PHYSICALLY touching, tasting, smelling , etc etc etc
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shistain, before god created “entry” it didn’t even exist. so let there be love making and then “let there be light and there was light”
but god didn’t ENTER anything because ENTRY didn’t exist , ONLY he did. so “let there be light and there was light”
but god remain SEPARATE from light , he didn’t BECOME light and neither did he enter PHYSICAL , how did he do that ? how can he when he isn’t even physical properties ?
remember what you were saying about the islamic concept shitstian? so did your pagan god have CO-ETERNAL created beings IN him or is GOD ALMIGHTY ABLE TO WILL SOMETHING INTO BEING WITHOUT MIXING IN IT, BECOMING IT AND BEING HELD IN IT ?
how did the physical stuff come to be shitstain when yhwh is immaterial and not made up of nothing UNLESS u believe it is MATERIAL ?
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toni/heathcliff/satan worshiper
So when are you going to explain your god’s oneness? Is he like an ant, or is his oneness different? How is it different?
And how does your “god” interact with the physical properties of thought and emotion when he cannot enter creation? Can he be in contact with physical properties or not? Tawheed is silly.
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the mad piece of shit is repeating himself WITHOUT ADDRESSING any of the IMPORTANT questions asked. is yhwh like 2 united testicles in one sack?
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“toni/heathcliff/satan worshiper”
yhwh sold jesus to satan to brutally punish him for sins. satan loving tore jesus and covered him with death.
but then again, jesus did get tempted to worship satan in the wilderness
jesus may also have commited bestiality
Talmud :
Jesus limped on one foot, was blind in one eye, practiced enhancement by way of membrum, committed bestiality with an ass, and was a fool who did not know his
beast’s mind. (Sanhedrin 105a, 105b)
this is an authentic report. jesus had sex with beasts . why would the talmud make this up when gospel of mark says jesus was TEMPTED to have sex with beasts?
the only truth is that mark and matthew COVERED up the truth about jesus’ TEMPTATIONS and acts of having sex with beasts, jesus even WORSHIPPED satan .
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40 days and 40 days with all that beast and satanic prodding , come on brian, jesus was a sinner . all that hypnosis when he saw all the kingdoms of the earth lol
come on, some thing is wrong here. satanic mind control and jesus sick temptations makes you think that jesus did do filthy acts.
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toni/heathcliff/atlas/satan
You’ve got me this time, your argumentation is too convincing for me to refute.
I will now convert to the pure, sweet religion of islam.
LOL!!!
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“Christian theology accepts that the true god – yahweh – can interact with his creation in any number of ways. It does not mean that he “MUST” have physical properties, although it does mean that he can take on physical properties.”
atlas is right, you are a slimey piece of crosstian shit!
i made it clear i want to know how your god INTERACTS with physical “in number of ways” for example from a DISTANCE.
i asked , if god is an UNCHANGING god and he REMAINS SEPARATE FROM ALL THE CHANGES that time and universe bring (tommorow will be new existence, changes ) how does he interact while REMAing separate from CHANGE?
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” It does not mean that he “MUST” have physical properties,”
but but but…bfore there was no sun, moon and stars and then the physucal sun, moon and star appear .
did your god cause another god from himself like how he begets to bring forward this creation ? so this implies WITHIN god MUST EXIST PHYSICAL properties.if it can BECOME physical from invisible to initiate heavenly lights, then this is PART of invisible being .
yhwh has created infinites within his being.
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toni/heathcliff/atlas
You and atlas are the same person.
“i made it clear i want to know how your god INTERACTS with physical “in number of ways” for example from a DISTANCE.”
And I made it clear how YOUR god interacts with the physical universe when he cannot be in contact with the physical. While your at it, explain how allah;s oneness is unique, then I might believe in your “god”.
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[And I made it clear how YOUR god interacts with the physical universe when he cannot be in contact with the physical. While your at it, explain how allah;s oneness is unique, then I might believe in your “god”.]
Buahahahaha! You didn’t show ANYTHING!
And we already bitchslapped you on your idiotic argument of oneness.
You don’t have the balls to answer my question you crossworshiping coward:
How does the Father’s ‘one person’ attribute differ from ours WITHOUT jumping to the ‘part of the trinity’ attribute?
How does yahweh’s ‘ONE being’ attribute differ from ours WITHOUT jumping to his multipersonality attribute?
You are such a fucking loser!
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atlas
holy spirit in action
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“And I made it clear how YOUR god interacts with the physical universe when he cannot be in contact with the physical. ”
mofo is portraying god as some kind of diabolist
“be in contact”
your”holy casper ghost” is currently feeling you or are you feeling him and pretend to do shit like this ?
that guy looked like he was getting raped internally , so much for god impregnating his mum in mysterious way !
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atlas
You are the guys who don;t even know how your god’s oneness is different to a snake’s.
“How does yahweh’s ‘ONE being’ attribute differ from ours WITHOUT jumping to his multipersonality attribute?”
His tirunity is his attribute and no one else’s. They are not different attributes – you are trying to hide the fact that your “god’s” oneness is just like all creatures. he is not god, ergo.
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“His tirunity is his attribute and no one else’s.”
like two testes united in one sack? can you say the two testes are 1 sack ?
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“His tirunity is his attribute and no one else’s”
fukin hell . 3 things joined together are not 1 . the three triplets BEING is COVERED with “one god”
say you have 3 persons, then you force the will, and abilities of the 4th over all 3, you have a 4th person and the 3 FUSED with it. but you don’t believe that about trinity, you believe EACH is SEPARATE person with EMOTION , WILL AND MIND, which means you are using ANOTHER ATTRIBUTE to confuse and cover up each singular person with “ONE “
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[You are the guys who don;t even know how your god’s oneness is different to a snake’s.
“How does yahweh’s ‘ONE being’ attribute differ from ours WITHOUT jumping to his multipersonality attribute?”
His tirunity is his attribute and no one else’s. They are not different attributes – you are trying to hide the fact that your “god’s” oneness is just like all creatures. he is not god, ergo.]
Wahahahaha he can’t help himself. He can’t answer the question. God I love bitchslapping this loser. It’s my favorite hobby.
One being and 3 person are DIFFERENT attribute you lil shitstain. My God’s oneness is uncreated.
So again:
How does yahweh’s ‘ONE being’ attribute differ from ours WITHOUT jumping to his multipersonality attribute?
How does the Father’s ‘one person’ attribute differ from ours WITHOUT jumping to the ‘part of the trinity’ attribute?
Come on! Give me little bit of challenge
Your god is one being just like I am one being so according to your moronic argument he is like me. DOesn’t matter wether he is allegedly 3 persons or not, that’s not what I am asking. I am one being and one person. He is one being and three persons. I am asking you how is that one being different from ours WITHOUT jumping to the multipersonality shit. You can’t, ergo you’re full of shit.
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“His tirunity is his attribute and no one else’s”
I wasn’t asking about your shitty non-existing trinity.
Let me do it like this since you obviously wanna play the avoid game like the little coward you are:
Trinity = ONE being and consisting of three persons
One being is 1 attribute and three persons is 1 attribute. Combining these two you get the trinity. Are you still with me you lowlife or is this to hard for ya? Stay with me just stay with me, keep those two braincells of yours on active duty just a little longer.
So again: ONE being = 1 attribute and three persons = 1 attribute.
Trinity = Combination(One being, three persons)
I am asking aobut the ONE being attribute. I don’t give a flying fuck about the three persons attribute nor do I care for your non existing trinity attribute (which is the combo of the two attributes).
My question is solo on the ‘One being’ attribute. So again you lil shitstain:
How does yahweh’s ‘ONE being’ attribute differ from ours WITHOUT jumping to his multipersonality attribute?
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bro atlas , the swine clearly is forgetting the “argument” WHAT a person is is DIFFERENT FROM who he is LOL
now he is FUSING THE WHATS AND THE WHO together .
and james white told him not to do this.
the what would represent the being/existence and clearly the who and what are DIFFERENT .
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atlas
“One being and 3 person are DIFFERENT attribute you lil shitstain. My God’s oneness is uncreated.”
Poor atlas. You just keep going around and around in circles. Being uncreated is a completely different attribute to oneness – you can;t be that brainwashed such that this rubbish makes sense to you?
One being and three persons is a solitary attribute.
Plus, why all the foul language and insults? Are you following the example of mohammed?
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“One being and three persons is a solitary attribute.”
“One being and three persons is a single attribute.”
“One being (what) and three persons (who) is a single attribute.”
lol
WHAT IS WHO
HAHAHAAHAHA
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brian, lol
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this crosstian thinks he is “logician ” lol
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bro atlas, your thoughts on buzzards video
thanks
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“A, B, and C are equal in substance and will, yet three persons. ”
“One being and three persons is a solitary attribute.”
but your second line of crosstian thought has made a, b and c one person .
one BEING yhwh, i , he , me
has MADE ALL a, b and c 1 person , one i , one he.
3 co-equal triplets
“equal with one another”
then you say 1 WHAT IS 3 who’s meaning your 1 yhwh has made the 3 1 person meaning
you just made a, b and c SAME person
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“One being and three persons is a solitary attribute”
No they are not. They are solitary attribute because they are solitary attribute? Talk about going in circles!
Nice try. This is what you have to do in order to play the avoid game.
I can just as easily say that Allah’s oneness and his uncreatedness are solitary because His oneness is uncreated. So if we go this route then you lose as well. But of course you’ll be in denial and say ‘no they are not’ and pretend that your say-so has any value. What a simple minded fool you are. But then again you are a crosstian.
Can you please man up? Just man up and try and defend your pagan bullshit.
How does the Father’s ‘one person’ attribute differ from ours WITHOUT jumping to the ‘part of the trinity’ attribute?
How does yahweh’s ‘ONE being’ attribute differ from ours WITHOUT jumping to his multipersonality attribute?
‘ONE being’ and multipersonality are different attributes. DIFFERENT. DIFFERENT. DIFFERENT.
I knew you would say what you said in your previous comment because you have no choice if you want to keep playing this game. Now that I have bitchslapped you with these questions, you HAVE to lie and deceive by just coming up with bullshit like ‘solitary attribute’.
An attribute is a characteristic that the individual possesses. Your pagan god is ‘one being’ (1 characteristic) and 3 persons (another characteristic).
So basically this loser’s argument is that Allah’s attribute(s) are same as ours on their own accord but his pagan god’s isn’t because everytime you ask him the same question in return he’ll claim ‘solitary’ as if that refutes anything.
Find a better excuse to dodge my questions.
Besides why don’t you answer the question about the father?
LOL or are you gonna claim that ‘one person’ and ‘existence of 2 more persons’ are ‘solitary’?
Buahahaha!
The kid got schooled again.
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“Plus, why all the foul language and insults? Are you following the example of mohammed?”
Nop, I got that from your jesus.
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“Yahweh can enter creation at will – interacting with physical properties isn’t a problem for christianity. It is a problem for the false doctrine of tawheed.”
i didnt ASK YOU about “entering creation”
i asked you about NO creation and then sun, moon stars.
how ? unless yhwh has CREATED physical INFINITIES within his nature
do you see?
you say yhwh can “enter creation” so yhwh then CHANGES when creation changes, right? if he remains separate from CHANGE, how is he INTERACTING ?
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“Yahweh is not triplets. And the rest of your comment makes no sense either. The islamic concept of god is self-refuting and you have trapped yourself in the lie.”
you know what your concept of god has done to your god? it literally says he is a fukin CREATED being . it says that he is unable to DO anything UNLESS he gets one of his CREATED CREATURE selves to do the job on his behalf, which then BEGS THE QUESTION
how did the created logo EVEN interact with the INVISIBLE ? how is there even a RELATIONSHIP ?
yhwh consists of infinite CREATED beings.
it FORMS physical FROM invisible SELF
meaning the physical SELVES have to be eternALLY begotten
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clearly crosstians who seek to limit god have created EXISTENCES of this god which are FINITE AND CREATED and then PARADOXICALLY these CREATED FINITES MUST BE PART OF THE INFINITE .
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shit head wrote :
And I made it clear how YOUR god interacts with the physical universe when he cannot be in contact with the physical.
////
but but but ….there was love making between the triplets and then lo and behold, sun, moon, stars ….
“let there be light”
how?
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Atlas is not the same person as Heathcliff dear Brian….
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“And I made it clear how YOUR god interacts with the physical universe when he cannot be in contact with the physical.”
unless your god does not have CREATED finites CO-ETERNAL in his being, how is it possible he even got the CREATION started?
how?
you need god to become touch, taste, smell, feeling, etc etc , but these ALL change and you believe GOD IS PERFECT AND DOES NOT CHANGE
so unless you believe yhwh is a CHANGING god who has CREATED co-eternal in his nature , how else could he interact ?
maybe moses was PHYSICALLY and co-eternally PRESENT in his PHYSICAL and created knowledge ?
otherwise how is it POSSIBLE he even interact with moses??
do you see what a dirty piece of slimey mofo you are?
your own arguments back fire on yhwh and BURN him another one.
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i’m still waiting for you answer you shit head
the 3 triplets were love making , then “let there be light”
lo and behold
sun, moon, stars
no earth yet
no humans yet
only PHYSICAL heavenly bodies
how ?
NONE of this existed before. only vigorous love making in a housing called “yhwh”
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and since the super human in ot called “yhwh” is more powerful than the god who got nob jokeyed by romans, does that mean the version which was in ot also co-existed along side the version which got jokeyed by the romans ALL within the “being” of yhwh?
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The Logos also created all things. He sustains the being and existence of all things. He gives and sustains in all intelligent beings the power of cognitive thought.
John 1 v 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
The Logos gives intuitive knowledge to all humans as they are born.
The bible doesn’t teach the trinity as an abstract concept but through the words and acts of the three persons.
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“The Logos also created all things. He sustains the being and existence of all things. He gives and sustains in all intelligent beings the power of cognitive thought.”
analogy :
i create a car through a computer
so i = father and logos = computer
so the role of the father is what in creation ? he has to have a separate role, right?
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Again, revealed by Paul:
Col 1 v 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
The verse that Lizzie Schofield quoted.
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spirit is NOT IMMATERIAL
QUOTE :
Paul is talking about a bodily transformation from “flesh and blood” into a “heavenly” or “spiritual” body. He specifically says that Jesus was turned into a spirit, but “spirit” to him did not mean immaterial. he thought it was made of the same stuff as stars and planets (what he calls “heavenly bodies”). He didn’t know what celestial bodies actually were, of course, but for the ancients, heaven was literally in the sky (“heaven” and “sky” are the same word in Greek) and they thought heavenly bodies were made of light and that stars were angels, the “heavenly host,” so Paul (like Jesus in Mark 12:25), seems to be saying that people turn into celestial beings akin to angels, or made of the same “heavenly” substance. he specifically says that “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom.” Resurrections occur in new, non-physical, or at least non-earthly bodies.
////
so i was right, if jesus went to his spirit state, then he was still MATERIAL and this means MATERIAL is in trinity. .
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The Father is the co-creator according to Hebrews:
1 v 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
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man that is clearly two gods. the father is “co-creator” but not LIKE his son and the son takes his own role in creation. two gods here.
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Is Allah omnipresent? Is he personal? He has 99 personal names doesn’t that make him a person? But if he is person he is like his creation.
If Allah is near my jugular he’s not far from my intestinal tract. How does Allah avoid all the intestinal tracts between the jugulars?
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and this guy believes yhwh was brought from a vagina as fully man and fully god. my goodness, these nobsters.
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” He has 99 personal names doesn’t that make him a person? But if he is person he is like his creation.”
each person in trinity has a mind and emotion . each who is not a what. how is the WHAT of yhwh DIFFERENT than my what ? it is 1 what and i am 1 what ergo i am yhwh .
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or a schizo is yhwh because a schizo has multipersonality disorder. yhwhs who is identical to a schizo.
and yhwhs being is identical to a schizo
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or a better analogy would be two testies FORMING at the same time in the embryo IN a sack.
so yhwhs oneness is like testies in a sack .
there you go. i found a perfect representation of trinity for you crosstians. make sure you tell your children that your gods oneness is like two testies in a sack.
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Erasmus
April 12, 2018 • 5:59 pm
Is Allah omnipresent? Is he personal? He has 99 personal names doesn’t that make him a person? But if he is person he is like his creation.
If Allah is near my jugular he’s not far from my intestinal tract. How does Allah avoid all the intestinal tracts between the jugulars?
I say;
Allah, Allaha, Elah, Eli, Elai, Elaha, Eloi, Eloi Lamasabahthani, is the name of the creator and Jesus used that instead of Yahweh. Allah is the God who created everything. He has attributes, names, characteristics, etc. call them how it befits God. These attributes or name or whatever you call them are not being/person by themselves. If you take God’s attributes/characteristics/names like mercy, grace, king, forgiver, highest, all seeing, all knowing etc., you will realize each is not God. So 99 names/attributes of Allah are not each a person/being but just His characteristics. We worship Allah alone. Muslims do not worship Quran, holy spirit, man, word etc.
Muslims do not consider each attribute became flesh. We do not worship flesh. God’s attributes never change to flesh.
Yes, Allah is near our jugulars but not physically. I do not know what you mean by omnipresent. If it means physically present, then our God is not physically present in a latrine/shithole/sink hole or any dirty and unholy places. He only knows what is there because He is all knowing.
Thanks.
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The father is a person as well and so is the son and the HS. Are they each like creation then???
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Christians are the most confused religious group in the world based on what their Church Fathers not the Bible told them.
They insist God is mighty, pure, clean, perfect. They insist this world is imperfect world, not pure for God to be near. If God is pure and perfect, how can He enter physically into impure world?
If God can visit us in our impure world, why will He insist we must be pure before we come near Him?
One of our resident pastor here told me that, you have to be pure before you can be near God. But God visits us here and Christians are the most impure people when it comes to pastors, Church Fathers raping peoples children and wives. (With all due respect to my Christian friends, not all Christians are impure. Some are really monks as the Quran says).
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thats why yhwh has a co-eteral material spare god along side him in “one being” coz the invisible one needs the spare version to defecate, feel , touch , fart , have temptations so that the invisible one can be known through the creature co-eternal version/being. what enters is a being which has properties the invisible one lacks. so people can demolish these co-eternal versions of yhwh and the invisble yhwh is DEPENDANT /needy on the created versions of yhwh , otherwise the universe would never even have been possible.
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“Muslims do not consider each attribute became flesh. We do not worship flesh. God’s attributes never change to flesh.”
But I thought Allah has two right hands with five fingers on each, and at least one foot.
That means you worship flesh.
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No one thinks these are like creation.
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Allah created seven heavens didn’t he?
He descends every night in to the lowest heaven which he has created. So he is in his creation.
(6) Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Allah descends to the lowest heaven at half of the night or at one-third of the latter part and says: Who is there to supplicate Me so that I answer him? Who is there to ask Me so that I grant him? And then says: Who will lend to One Who is neither indigent nor tyrant? (This hadith has been narrated by Sa’d b. Sa’id with the same chain of transmitters with this addition:” Then the Blessed and the Exalted (Lord) stretches His Hands and says: Who will lend to One Who is neither indigent nor tyrant? ) (Book #004, Hadith #1659)
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erasmus
That is a great point. The seven heavens are created and allah descends down into them – clearly he/it enters his creation.
Muslims will say that he does this in “ways we can’t understand!!!!!”, but this shows the double standard of islamic apologists on this site.
The biggest problem is that muslism face is that in order to enter creation, allah must alter or change some aspects of himself or else his power would destroy creation. This means allah is a modalist god – he changes modes in order to exist in different parts of his creation at any given time.
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Erasmus,
The learning we take from this hadith is that supplication at the latter part of the night has more chances to be answered. Trying to debate the actual meaning of what it means by the descend is fruitless as we have no way to find this out.
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“Yes, Allah is near our jugulars but not physically. I do not know what you mean by omnipresent. If it means physically present, then our God is not physically present in a latrine/shithole/sink hole or any dirty and unholy places. He only knows what is there because He is all knowing.”
The lowest heaven starts at the earth’s surface. But that’s where humans are farting, burping, puking and doing their business. All the smelly gases, liquids and other waste products from this unrefined behaviour collect in the lowest heaven where Allah does his rounds and comes to visit every night.
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why does assmus post a hadeeth when he knows that even among the muslims there is disagreement about what it means when it says “decent”
there is ashariy and salafi debate on this available on line on this yet crosstian just cnp the narration. What you cannot avoid is that your god experienced taking a smelly shit in his PERSON.
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and he would communicate smelly farting to his divine person even when he was infant.
What os disgusting is that you must believe that yhwh while having love experience with other yhwh KNEW ALWAYS that he would come down and become a SHITTING god.
and he knew always ,even before universe that he would experienxe getting popped out from private part.
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Erasmus
The lowest heaven starts at the earth’s surface. But that’s where humans are farting, burping, puking and doing their business. All the smelly gases, liquids and other waste products from this unrefined behaviour collect in the lowest heaven where Allah does his rounds and comes to visit every night.
I say;
You are justified to bring such hadith to counter our argument. What you must know is that Muslims interpret and understand hadith differently i.e. metaphorical, literal and sometimes will not agree to it at all. Not all Muslims believe Allah has hands like ours.
With regards to “discend” the Arabic word used is debatable. What is clear is that when our prophet was taken by the angel and ascended to heaven, they reached a place where they cannot go further. It means God does not physically descend to the lower heavens as the hadith seem to imply.
Thanks.
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intellect
You are engaging in the fallacy of special pleading.
The texts clearly show that allah enters his creation.
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Itellect
Even worse, the implication of the hadith is that allah has to come closer to his creation in order to hear and answer prayers. This hardly describes an omniscient being. Allah is not god.
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Erasmus “..The lowest heaven starts at the earth’s surface…”
Really ? Qur’an says the lowest heaven is adorned with stars. That is so far away from Earth’s surface.
Your God came through the genital tract and defecated on this Earth. There is no comparison.
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“LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: ”
now crosstians like ken temple will interpret this in another way,but brain believes that yhwh has nostrils which can smell EARTHLY gasses . so yhwh loves aroma from burnt flesh . this can only mean
1. yhwh ,in his being ,exist human touch,taste,smell,sight and hearing. yhwh smells barbecue just like we do , he does not need to become human, he can smell burnt flesh JUST like us,without nose. so what other smells does he sniff?
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Brian
April 14, 2018 • 5:47 am
intellect
You are engaging in the fallacy of special pleading.
The texts clearly show that allah enters his creation
I say;
The text clearly shows what? God physically descending to the lower heavens? I say our prophet Himself said when he ascended to the heavens with the angel, they passed the lower heavens and God is not there. They past the higher heavens and God is not there. They reached where they cannot go further. There is a separation between creation and God’s throne. Yes, the throne is also created and is another separation from the heavens. So God does not physically descend to lower heavens but metaphorically like in the month of Ramadan Lailatul Qadr.
No Muslim believes Lailatul Qadr is physically God descending to earth.
Our prophet told some of his companions that they will go to heaven. No Muslim will interpret it as the prophet is God like Christians will say Jesus forgive sins so he is God. We all know the said what God asked them to say.
There is separation between God and creation, so God does not physically descends to the lower heavens or earth but He shows his Mercy which is not Himself. His Mercy did not became flesh. No. We do not worship flesh. God has face but not like our face. We will see the face when we go to heaven in sha Allah.
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