Earlier this morning, I came across a post by a budding ex-Muslim. He made a comment regarding Ramadan that I disagreed with and so I dropped a quick reply. I believe firmly, that true freedom comes from one’s ability to control one’s desires, as do psychologists who agree with this line of thinking in the form of the locus of control.
The ability to have self-control, to develop one’s locus of control is essential to everyday and long term success, fasting aids in developing your locus of control because you learn to assign consequences to your actions, because you learn to reign in your negative habits:
- Procrastination – you learn to be on time for Suhoor and Iftar, for your daily Salaat.
- Gluttony – you control your desire to eat all the time.
- Patience – you learn to control your temper, your words, your actions.
As the Qur’an says:
“And to fast is better for you, if only you knew.” – Qur’an 2:184 (translation is the Clear Qur’an by Dr. Mustafa Khattab).
Whereas not fasting is to give in to hedonism, to give in to your desires, to reject developing your self-control, to give in to materialism. Ramadan is a month of mercy, with wisdom behind it that may not always be as apparent as one think it is.
and God knows best.
Blogging Theology 
People don’t need a religion to practice and master self control; And the best part about atheism is that when you accomplish something, YOU get the credit for it instead of having to hand the credit over to god.
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“And the best part about atheism is that when you accomplish something, YOU get the credit for it instead of having to hand the credit over to god.”
Wow! That’s the best thing about atheism?
Are we supposed to be impressed by that?
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You can be whatever you want, the point is that self control is not inherent with religion and religion is not inherent with self control. One does not necessarily have to do with the other until someone introduces the two.
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But I wasn’t talking about self control.
I commented on your second point: taking credit and it being the best thing about atheism.
No one says that you can’t have self control without religion. It’s just part of religion and that is a good thing.
You don’t need to be a university student to study mathematics cus you can study it by yourself but generally it provides the conditions for development of that particular subject just like religion provides the teachings for self control.
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Oh ok, that was the point I was making with the original comment so just making sure it went through.
Self control is not an inherent part of religion, rather how some people use religion to better themselves; though there is no need for religion in mastering self control, which was my original point. The teachings of self control are not exclusive to religion or more special or valid from religion, it’s just another thing for religion to take credit for.
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Anyways my apologies if I came across rude. Hope you’ll have a great time during the time of Ramadan even if you aren’t a Muslim.
Peace.
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Definitely won’t be observing Ramadan any time soon haha thanks
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Indeed, we don’t need religion for self control but religion gives one hell of a boost to the mastering process (in my own experience)
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Well that’s if you believe it’s theories and stand for what it stands for to begin with, sure.
But yoga and mui thai do the same for so many people, as does athletics and exercise in general.
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Amanda where you theist ones and then leave religion or were you atheist your whole life? If the former what made you leave, if the latter would you ever consider being theist again?
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I’m unsure why personal details are relevant but since you asked I was raised Catholic until gradually converting to atheism at around the age of eighteen. I still dabble in spiritual concepts but for the most part I consider myself atheist; I would not say that there is without a doubt not a creator, however that’s as far as I’m willing to go with it, I would not say the hypothetical creator is inherently good or just or loving. Not to mention the fact that a creator could not just pop into existence, so I’d need a good theory as to where and how that creator came from and into existence.
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“Not to mention the fact that a creator could not just pop into existence…”
Exactly.
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Amanda were you theist ones and then leave religion or were you atheist your whole life? If the former what made you leave, if the latter would you ever consider being theist?
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I deconverted from religion because I disagreed with the policies and ideology; and I dont believe in a creator because I’m not convinced there is one based on current evidence. I’m open to the possibility of a creator, however not to practicing any religion.
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Ok, I was just asking out of curiosity that’s all. I posed such questions before to others. Wasn’t trying to be nosy.
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It sounds like Amanda is more of an Agnostic, rather than fully Atheist. Or maybe just confused.
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I’m more into reality, truth, and facts than labels, so call it whatever you like:)
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Amanda,
That you did not realize that you are agnostic rather than atheist means that you don’t really know what you are talking about.
For someone who is “interested in reality, truth, and facts” your blog page post on Islam is full fantasy, falsehood, lies, error, half-truths, and flat out bigotry.
I am sure that you copied from an anti-Islam website, as there does not seem to be an original thought in your piece, and all you have done is to regurgitate every deceitful, ugly, hateful, ignorant Islamophobic slander and lie about Islam that you could possibly muster, in accordance with your own shallow and biased understanding of Islam.
Fortunately every accusation you made against Islam has been thoroughly refuted on this blog and elsewhere around the web.
Articles like yours often have the reverse effect and cause thinking people of intellect to search and study Islam for themselves. Often they like what they learn about Islam, and THAT is the real reason that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world today.
Given the poor job you did on getting the “reality, truth, and facts” straight on Islam, I will decline to read the rest of your poorly written blog.
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What specifically have I gotten wrong about what the Quran says?
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“Think and Thrive Blog”…HA!
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You choose to practice a religion created by a man who married a six year old and kept sex slaves. I don’t think you want to start making personal attacks.
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Any idiot can read a book and understand what a religion stands for.
Why do people act like Islam is such a mystery? Just read the book ?
It’s not about opinions.
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Brother Ibn Issam, what was that you said about originality? I think I know what you mean!
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“Any idiot can read a book and understand what a religion stands for.
Why do people act like Islam is such a mystery? Just read the book ?
It’s not about opinions.”
Actually, it is. Your criticisms of Islam are based on your opinions, nothing more. By the way, the Quran doesn’t say anything about the Prophet Muhammad’s marriage to Aisha (ra). That’s the Hadiths. I don’t think you know the difference.
The fact is that there is no reason to apply your modern sensitivities to what the Prophet did 1400 years ago. It was a different time. As far as marriage goes, even until the early 1900s, the legal age for marriage was as young as 10 in countries like England and America. So, nice try with the shock value!
Yes, any “idiot” (hint, hint) can read a book. But it takes a more serious mind to sift through one’s opinions and presuppositions to actually learn something.
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Are you seriously suggesting that because it was a couple thousand years ago (not long at all, very recently in human history) that having sex with children and keeping sex slaves was considered normal or acceptable?
Your god chose a man who had sex with children and regularly raped women to be your religion’s prophet. Congratulations.
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Also, my question was: what specifically did I get wrong about what the Quran says?
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“Are you seriously suggesting that because it was a couple thousand years ago (not long at all, very recently in human history) that having sex with children and keeping sex slaves was considered normal or acceptable?
Your god chose a man who had sex with children and regularly raped women to be your religion’s prophet. Congratulations.”
LOL, I see that your tactic is just to repeat the same opinion and hope that it will save you. Obviously you ignored the part where I said that this practice had been common even up to only 100 years ago, and in western countries as well! Pre-industrial times were different from our time.
And actually, my God chose a man who changed the world and whose followers influenced the European Renaissance. What have you accomplished in your life? Eh?
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What about what I’ve said is untrue?
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“Also, my question was: what specifically did I get wrong about what the Quran says?”
I thought this was for Ibn Issam? He read your blog, I didn’t. But judging from your remarks so far, I can see it’s pretty standard idiocy from another wannabe Google scholar on Islam. 🙂
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Speak for yourself. I dont know why people think English speaking people are illiterate on anything that wasn’t originally written in english, but that isn’t the case fyi.
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“regularly raped women”
Show some evidence please.
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What do you think sex slavery is? Dancing and having a good old time? It’s forced sex on slaves who are kept for that very purpose
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[[[
What do you think sex slavery is? Dancing and having a good old time? It’s forced sex on slaves who are kept for that very purpose
]]]
I knew you would throw out such bs! No evidence whatsoever.
The usual ‘o they are slaves so they were raped even though there is nothing in the vast Islamic literature that says such a thing and that’s evidence, so there!’.
You have countless of hadiths to choose from, if raping slaves was condoned then all you have to do is provide one source for it. Shouldn’t be hard with thousands upon thousands of hadiths out there.
This is evidence according to people like you. Hilarious coming from someone who considers herself to be intellectually superior just because she thinks she is nothing more than a bag of chemicals.
But we all know you won’t be able to do it!
You’ll just come back and repeat yourself.
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“Speak for yourself. I dont know why people think English speaking people are illiterate on anything that wasn’t originally written in english, but that isn’t the case fyi.”
Well, as you can see, I am English speaking, so your silly statement is meaningless. My point is that you are just another Google scholar who has the arrogance to think that she knows anything about Islam.
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So because I’ve quoted and referred to parts of the Quran that make Islam look exceptionally disgusting – because it is, on many levels – I’m uninformed and a “google scholar” (I’m the silly meaningless commenter though..), but if I were to say one of several liberal, apologetic phrases like “Islam is a culture of peace” or “Allah is love” then I’d suddenly be a doctor of Islamic studies. Typical, when you don’t have a point to make, personally attack those who disagree instead of attacking their point.
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“What about what I’ve said is untrue?”
So far, the only things you have harped about are the Prophet’s marriage to Aisha and the fact that he had concubines. I have already commented on these, and the only thing you can do is to repeat your silly presuppositions, as if they make more sense being repeated ad nauseum.
Other than that, there isn’t anything else that you have said. All you have done so far is repeat the same tired arguments which we have heard a hundred times from like minded fools. But it doesn’t take much to refute your personal opinions, does it? 🙂
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All you said was that the child sex and sex slavery was in the past so therefore is not a horribly obscene and disgusting abomination that should be blatantly condemned and not beat around the bush to seem not that bad because it was a thousand years ago; please, that was pretty much yesterday, our species is millions of years old.
You cant simultaneously say “it was in the past so it wasnt as bad as it would be now” and “it wasnt really as bad as you’re making it seem because the sex slaves were concubines”, that’s a euphemism, we all know how barbaric the men of fundamental Islamic cultures are and how excused it is in Islam.
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You can call it “sex slavery” as much as you like but you haven’t provided a single hadith condoning sex with concubines by force.
And bringing the period of EXISTENCE of mankind and trying to create this imaginary link with the time of concubines and sexual relations with girls being universally accepted when they have reached puberty isn’t refuting anything.
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Do you know what a concubine is? How on Earth could anyone be justifying such an atrocity? The entire thing is screwed up and it’s really unnecessary and harmful to society. Especially for women and girls who are forced to wear hijabs and cloaks, girls and women are forced to marry people they didn’t choose, girls get circumcised, sexuality being shamed, homosexuality being shamed, and of course, in the west it’s watered down to blend with western values so people in those countries have no idea what the reality of Islam is.
Do you not understand that the “prophet” and his followers married many, many girls and women at once – AGAINST THE WOMEN’S WILL – and had sex with them – AGAINST THEIR WILL – how is that not sex slavery? The purpose of selective polygamy was to breed, which of course is justified in the religion that leads the planet in birth and fertility rate; it still isn’t justified on any rational or ethical level.
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You still have yet to address marrying children as young as six. Even if the average life span is twenty five, is it not at the very least common sense and decency to wait until puberty to marry someone? Or rather not force a child to marry you at all ??
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[[[Do you know what a concubine is? How on Earth could anyone be justifying such an atrocity? The entire thing is screwed up and it’s really unnecessary and harmful to society. Especially for women and girls who are forced to wear hijabs and cloaks, girls and women are forced to marry people they didn’t choose, girls get circumcised, sexuality being shamed, homosexuality being shamed, and of course, in the west it’s watered down to blend with western values so people in those countries have no idea what the reality of Islam is.
Do you not understand that the “prophet” and his followers married many, many girls and women at once – AGAINST THE WOMEN’S WILL – and had sex with them – AGAINST THEIR WILL – how is that not sex slavery? The purpose of selective polygamy was to breed, which of course is justified in the religion that leads the planet in birth and fertility rate; it still isn’t justified on any rational or ethical level.
You still have yet to address marrying children as young as six. Even if the average life span is twenty five, is it not at the very least common sense and decency to wait until puberty to marry someone? Or rather not force a child to marry you at all ??
]]]
Ok let’s look at your academic arguments one by one.
1) [[[Do you know what a concubine is?]]]
Yes. You don’t apparently!
2) [[[How on Earth could anyone be justifying such an atrocity?]]]
Islam encourages the freeing of slaves. It’s a concept that deals with REALITY. The Prophet freed all
his slaves and he encouraged others to do the same. But you can’t just forbid it in a world where it is
practiced all the time. You live in a place and time where you never had to deal with slaves. So it’s
easy for you to be emotional about it and point fingers to the people of the past with your
anachronisms.
3) [[[The entire thing is screwed up and it’s really unnecessary and harmful to society.]]]
How would you know? Have you studied history? In this time and age, most likely. Btw “slaves” in
Islam aren’t the same as the slaves that were created by the Christians who treated slaves as less
than animals. You do know this right? Their own bible says in Exodus 21:20-21:
“Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct
result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their
property.” If a Muslim would do this then he would be severely punished.
4) [[[Especially for women and girls who are forced to wear hijabs and cloaks…]]]
Yes women have to cover themselves in public. In this society we are also ‘forced’ to wear clothes
that meet certain criteria. It’s obviously looser than the Islamic criteria. So you judge everything by the
society you grew up in, but give it an X amount of years an it will get even looser and people then will
look at the ones that are living now and wonder how oppressed this time and age is and how free they
are. The word freedom is nothing more than an excuse used by morally bankrupt people to satisfy
their lord and savior: vain desires.
5) [[[girls and women are forced to marry people they didn’t choose…]]]
Hmmm, can you provide evidence please. Girls who have reached their puberty cannot be forced to
marry someone they don’t like:
– Quran 4:19 “O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye
treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,except
where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of
kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings
about through it a great deal of good.”
– Abu Hurairah narrated that: The Prophet said: “A matron should not be given in marriage until she is
consulted, and a virgin should not be given in marriage until her permission is sought, and her
silence is her permission.” (Jami` at-Tirmidhi Volume 2, Book 6, Hadith 1107)
– Abu Hurairah reported the Prophet as saying “A woman who has been previously married should not
be married until her permission is asked nor should a virgin be married without her permission.“ They
(the people) asked “What is her permission, Apostle of God? He replied “it is by her keeping silence.”
(Sunan Abi Dawud Book 11, Hadith 2087)
– Abu Hurairah narrated that: The Messenger of Allah said: “An orphan is to be consulted about
herself, then if she is silent that is her permission, and if she refuses, then do not authorize it (the
marriage) for her” (meaning: when she attains the age of puberty and refuses it.) (Jami` at-Tirmidhi
Volume 2, Book 6, Hadith 1109)
6) [[[girls get circumcised]]]
So? This is even done in (some) Western countries. The female also has a tissue on the private part
just like the male does. Islam allows for it’s removal. In Canada it’s even prescribed as a treatment for
women who have problems with sexual arousal. According to a survey 25 % of women have a hard
time reaching climax. Islam didn’t force them to implement female circumcision. Don’t call it female
mutilation as you can’t mutilate a dead tissue (the membrane covering the private part).
7) [[[sexuality being shamed?]]]
Outside of marriage yes. Otherwise there is nothing wrong with it! In Islam it’s actually encouraged for
the spouses to engage in sexual relations:
It was narrated from Abu Dharr that some people from among the companions of the Prophet (peace
and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon
him): “O Messenger of Allaah, the rich people will get more reward. They pray as we pray, and they
fast as we fast, but they give in charity from their excess wealth.” He said, “Has not Allaah given you
things with which you can give charity? Every tasbeehah (saying ‘Subhaan Allaah (Glory be to
Allaah)’) is a charity. Every Takbeerah (saying ‘Allaahu akbar (Allaah is Most Great)’) is a charity.
Every Tahmeedah (saying ‘al-hamdu-Lillaah (praise be to Allaah)’ is a charity. Every Tahleelah (saying
‘Laa ilaaha ill-Allaah (there is no god but Allaah)’) is a charity. Enjoining what is good is a charity.
Forbidding what is evil is a charity. Having intercourse (with one’s wife) is a charity.” They said, “O
Messenger of Allaah, if one of us fulfils his desire, is there reward in that?” He said, “Do you not see
that if he does it in a haraam way he will have the burden of sin? So if he does it in a halaal way, he
will have a reward for that.”(Narrated by Muslim, 1674)
8) [[[homosexuality being shamed]]]
Damn right and you should be ashamed for permitting it!
9) [[[and of course, in the west it’s watered down to blend with western values so people in those
countries have no idea what the reality of Islam is.]]]
Biatch please! You got pretty much everything wrong until now and you have the audacity to talk
about what real Islam is?
10) [[[Do you not understand that the “prophet” and his followers married many, many girls and women at
once – AGAINST THE WOMEN’S WILL – and had sex with them – AGAINST THEIR WILL – how is
that not sex slavery?]]]
And yet you provided ZERO evidence while I, unlike you, did provide evidence to the contrary!
11) [[[The purpose of selective polygamy was to breed, which of course is justified in the religion that
leads the planet in birth and fertility rate; it still isn’t justified on any rational or ethical level.]]]
Islam encourages to have children yes. So what? Has it really gone to such a point where having
many children is considered an evil thing to do? A society where homosexuality, lesbianism,
transgenderism and pets replacing children are pushing against birthrate is going to teach us about
morality. You couldn’t make this stuff up if you tried!
In Islam a marriage is for multiple reasons, having children is just one of them. There are more
women than men which means that many women will not have the option to find a man with whom
they can build a life with. The only way to deal with this problem is polygamy. If the other wives don’t
mind sharing their husband then what’s wrong with that?
The fact you make an issue out of polygamy and not homosexuality just goes to show what a
despicable person you are!
12) [[[You still have yet to address marrying children as young as six. Even if the average life span is
twenty five, is it not at the very least common sense and decency to wait until puberty to marry
someone? Or rather not force a child to marry you at all ??]]]
Marrying off minors only means you make a contract between the two. They don’t live with each
other (they’re not even allowed!). Only when she reached puberty they can live together. She has
every right to call off the marriage then if she doesn’t want to remain married.
Narrated Al-Qasim: “A woman from the offspring of Ja`far was afraid lest her guardian marry her (to
somebody) against her will. So she sent for two elderly men from the Ansar, `AbdurRahman and
– Mujammi’, the two sons of Jariya, and they said to her, “Don’t be afraid, for Khansa’ bint Khidam
was given by her father in marriage against her will, then the Prophet cancelled that marriage.”
(Sahih al-Bukhari volume 9, Book 86, Hadith 99)
– Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: “A virgin came to the Prophet (p) and mentioned that her father had
married her against her will, so the Prophet allowed her to exercise her choice.” (Sunan Abi Dawud
Book 11, Hadith 2091)
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1. Ok so how is that ethical on any level ?
2. The “prophet” should not have had slaves to begin with. Freeing your previous slaves to make room for new ones makes you a good person? Having a slave at all, especially as recently as less than two thousand years ago, exempts someone from being a moral leader.
3. All religion is screwed up and unnecessary; I am very familiar with what all Abrahamic bibles entail (Islam, Christianity, Judaism). They are all disgraceful and should be left in the past where they belong.
4. Forcing girls or women (and yet not boys or men) to cover their heads is sexist, misogynistic, oppressive, outdated, stone-age, nonsense that should not happen by law or otherwise ANYwhere in the world.
5. Are you suggesting that religious text is not contradictory? HOW DOES A CHILD CONSENT TO MARRIAGE ???
Children and women across the world are being married off against their will in the name of Islam, and the prophet himself was guilty of this very crime (what should be a crime anyway).
6. All underage circumcision is unnecessary, unethical, and should be criminalized.
7. Shaming unmarried sexuality is unhealthy, unnecessary, harmful to society, and flat out ignorant. Especially for someone who marries children and had multiple wives.
8. WOW… The fact that you blatantly express your bigotry and homophobia and then use your religion of choice to justify it is frankly disgusting, ignorant, and not an argument for your position in any way.
Your comment on homosexuality shows how outdated and barbaric of a thinker you are, and I can not continue to communicate with someone who blatantly admits that they think homosexuality is immoral.
Someone like that is just too much of an ignorant waste of time to continue communicating with. Very very shocking and a sad representation of how far some cultures still have to evolve. I’m actually a bit frustrated I’ve even spent this much time on someone who stands up for discrimination of sexual orientation. Hard to believe in 2018.
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1. Ok so how is that ethical on any level ?
2. The “prophet” should not have had slaves to begin with. Freeing your previous slaves to make room for new ones makes you a good person? Having a slave at all, especially as recently as less than two thousand years ago, exempts someone from being a moral leader.
3. All religion is screwed up and unnecessary; I am very familiar with what all Abrahamic bibles entail (Islam, Christianity, Judaism). They are all disgraceful and should be left in the past where they belong.
4. Forcing girls or women (and yet not boys or men) to cover their heads is sexist, misogynistic, oppressive, outdated, stone-age, nonsense that should not happen by law or otherwise ANYwhere in the world.
5. Are you suggesting that religious text is not contradictory? HOW DOES A CHILD CONSENT TO MARRIAGE ???
Children and women across the world are being married off against their will in the name of Islam, and the prophet himself was guilty of this very crime (what should be a crime anyway).
6. All underage circumcision is unnecessary, unethical, and should be criminalized.
7. Shaming unmarried sexuality is unhealthy, unnecessary, harmful to society, and flat out ignorant. Especially for someone who marries children and had multiple wives.
8. WOW… The fact that you blatantly express your bigotry and homophobia and then use your religion of choice to justify it is frankly disgusting, ignorant, and not an argument for your position in any way.
Your comment on homosexuality shows how outdated and barbaric of a thinker you are, and I can not continue to communicate with someone who blatantly admits that they think homosexuality is immoral.
Someone like that is just too much of an ignorant waste of time to continue communicating with. Very very shocking and a sad representation of how far some cultures still have to evolve. I’m actually a bit frustrated I’ve even spent this much time on someone who stands up for discrimination of sexual orientation. Hard to believe in 2018.
1) [[[1. Ok so how is that ethical on any level ?]]]
I said that it was common in the past and Islam helps erase it.
2) [[[The “prophet” should not have had slaves to begin with. Freeing your previous slaves to make room for new ones makes you a good person? Having a slave at all, especially as recently as less than two thousand years ago, exempts someone from being a moral leader.]]]
I said he freed ALL his slaves. During that period during wartime people (especially women and children) are left by men to go and fight so they become vulnerable. Women in the past weren’t usually able to defend themselves and make a living (same obviously applies to children) and hence became victims in that society. There were no institutions to prevent that. Many women went into prostitution to earn a living. So slavery has to be understood in that context.
Just throwing out that last sentence as if it’s somehow factual just makes me think what atheists are really about. “Having a slave at all, especially as recently as less than two thousand years ago, exempts someone from being a moral leader” according to who??? You? What switch in history took place 2000 years ago to come to that conclusion? And I want facts, not your emotional mumbo jumbo.
3) [[[ All religion is screwed up and unnecessary; I am very familiar with what all Abrahamic bibles entail (Islam, Christianity, Judaism). They are all disgraceful and should be left in the past where they belong.]]]
More yapping by an atheist with an ego.
4) [[[4. Forcing girls or women (and yet not boys or men) to cover their heads is sexist, misogynistic, oppressive, outdated, stone-age, nonsense that should not happen by law or otherwise ANYwhere in the world.]]]
That’s your opinion, not fact! Like I said before (which you didn’t ever bother responding to like the rest of my arguments) if people X amount of years later would come along and demand to be “FREE” for women to walk with just a G-string and a bra and everyone that opposes that to be uncivilized then that would be the same bullshit excuse that you are coming up with now to justify you wanting to wear whatever you want in public. You justify these things just by looking at whether it takes away pleasure not whether it’s healthy to suppress the suxualization of women by turning them into sex objects. And this coming from a woman which claims concubines to be sex objects.
You have a god (just like all atheists) and it’s called “pleasure” or “vain desires”. As long as you can obey that god and come up with the most ridiculous excuses like ‘O wearing a headscarf is oppressive” you’ll pretend to have the moral highground. A typical modern, secular bullshit excuse to justify pushing sexuality in everyone’s faces. And btw atheists during the reformation were AGAINST the “freedom to wear shorts that look like panties” attitude. If they were to see the women of today then they would think they are prostitutes. So for you to make this solely about religion is yet another example of you being completely clueless about history.
5) [[[Are you suggesting that religious text is not contradictory? HOW DOES A CHILD CONSENT TO MARRIAGE ???
Children and women across the world are being married off against their will in the name of Islam, and the prophet himself was guilty of this very crime (what should be a crime anyway).]]]
A minor can be married of even id she refuses. In rare cases the father can do this if he thinks that after puberty when they are together the husband will be beneficial to her (whether it being due to his character or other reasons). If she hits puberty and she hasn’t changed her mind then all she has to do is say ‘NO’. That’s it. The marriage is off.
As for women being married against their will: I am repeating this the third time, show me any evidence whatsoever of Islam supporting this. Then you have the audacity to accuse my Prophet of doing such a thing! Where did he do that you disgusting liar?!!! Where did he marry someone against her will? Where? Show me! I gave you evidence to the contrary!
He despised it!
You are truly a disgusting individual that just lies through her teeth!
6) [[[All underage circumcision is unnecessary, unethical, and should be criminalized.]]]
Actually it is necessary. If it wasn’t then it wouldn’t be considered a treatment in the O so amazingly civilized West. Unethical according to who? You? Criminalize a treatment? Have you completely lost it. What is unethical about removing a dead tissue if it is beneficial? You’re not cutting a living organism you fool!
You just throw out emotional bs with no factual analysis. This is why I just can’t take you seriously.
7) [[[Shaming unmarried sexuality is unhealthy, unnecessary, harmful to society, and flat out ignorant. Especially for someone who marries children and had multiple wives.]]]
O really? Shaming unmarried sexuality is unhealthy and unnecessary you say? Sex is supposed to be more than just pleasure. It creates a strong bond between a man and a woman. A marriage constitutes promises that both parties should adhere to. Look at what your attitude has done to the world!
The whole world is being sexualized. People just changing their so called soulmates whenever they feel like it and by the age of 30 have had 20+ girl/boy friends. That’s the damage your attitude does to society! But of course you turn it all upside down.
I bet when you were Catholic you started to loose faith as you were wandering more and more about ‘why can’t I just do this which brings much pleasure or do that which seems a lot of fun’. You looked around you and saw people taking great pleasure in doing the things that they did and slowly but surely you started to associate something restricting you from doing a joyful thing as being wrong and something that promotes fun and pleasure as being “progressive, modern, civilized, freedom, etc etc”.
Marrying children/minors doesn’t in anyway mean they start living together. Only when she hits puberty she can move in and live as a wife like people do today. If she doesn’t want to then the marriage is off. Did Aisha object to the marriage? No!
And what is wrong with having multiple wives if the others consent? How else are you going to fix the problem of women not able to find a man to build family with because there being more women than men?
8) [[[WOW… The fact that you blatantly express your bigotry and homophobia and then use your religion of choice to justify it is frankly disgusting, ignorant, and not an argument for your position in any way. ]]]
Lady I find it absolutely hilarious that just a few days ago you would write comments about how you don’t need religion to have self control. For you now to say that it is disgusting of me to express myself as I do towards homosexuality and bring religion into it just goes to show you can’t be consistent!
Since when is religion needed to oppose homosexuality? Just a few decades back (forget centuries) your fellow atheists would spit at gays! It’s only due to the hollywood/media pushing this sickness that you, who is affected by it, will defend that filth.
9) [[[Your comment on homosexuality shows how outdated and barbaric of a thinker you are, and I can not continue to communicate with someone who blatantly admits that they think homosexuality is immoral.
Someone like that is just too much of an ignorant waste of time to continue communicating with. Very very shocking and a sad representation of how far some cultures still have to evolve. I’m actually a bit frustrated I’ve even spent this much time on someone who stands up for discrimination of sexual orientation. Hard to believe in 2018.]]]
And you are sick in your head! The fact that you use words like ‘outdated’ and ‘evolve’ just goes to show that you don’t have any factual comprehension! Those are just words miss. Having a certain belief in 2018 which is by some considered to be the norm doesn’t make it just!
I would say, it’s hard to believe that the world has become so morally bankrupt that they’ll just bend over and take it where the sun doesn’t shine as long as it promotes pleasure and to hell with everything else.
As usual you have provided a feeble response and have barely engaged with what I said. You merely repeated yourself and in the mix pushed lies against Islam.
Pathetic!
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Bigotry, hetero supremacy, and homophobia are what’s pathetic.
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And the fact that I’ve studied religions and I’m familiar with them does not mean I have an ego because I happen to be atheist, it means I’m informed.
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Amanda,
Judging by your comments, it is apparent that you have never sincerely engaged with what Muslims (and for that matter Jews and Christians) actually do and don’t believe.
I just wanted to elaborate further on what some of the other Muslim commentators have said here regarding slavery.
I wonder if you are really being all that consistent.
I presume you live in the West, and therefore wear western clothes, eat western food, drink western coffee and use modern electronics to type your comments?
Are you aware where these items come from and how they are made?
The millions of people in the developing world who are solely dependent on the manufacture these items have the same (or possibly less?) amount of social, political and economic freedom as what were termed slaves in the ancient world.
Yet I presume you still use these items? Presumably, like me, you recognise that the system needs to change, but have taken a pragmatic approach and recognised that for the time being you are dependent on this system. Perhaps you realise that you can only change such an ingrained institution from the inside?
If you can apply such pragmatism to your own worldview, you should also apply it to ours.
(As an aside, ‘sweatshop’ workers who make Apple iPhones, harvest coffee in the modern world etc have less rights than ‘slaves’ are required by Islamic law.)
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What Muslims believe is written in the Quran, which I have indeed engaged with.
I dont think financially supporting poor factory workers is quite the same as owning slaves (or “marrying” “concubines” if that sounds better)
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[[[And the fact that I’ve studied religions and I’m familiar with them does not mean I have an ego because I happen to be atheist, it means I’m informed.]]]
Omg!
You don’t know anything about Islam. You got almost everything wrong. I had to correct you nearly every time. You are clueless about Islam and I proved it with sources. You just kept blabbering with zero evidence to back up what you were saying which is a sign of person who is completely clueless.
I ask you to provide sources for your claims against Islam and you haven’t done that ones! So you’re just full of shit!
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You’ve admitted that you think unmarried people having sex is immoral and that homosexuality is immoral.. NOTHING you say after stating opinions like those has any credibility whatsoever.
You might as well be a dancing monkey at this point because you can’t be taken seriously in the slightest.
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And btw I thought you were done talking.
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[[[You’ve admitted that you think unmarried people having sex is immoral and that homosexuality is immoral.. NOTHING you say after stating opinions like those has any credibility whatsoever.]]]
You’ve admitted the contrary so good job worshiping your lord and savior vain desire! Yes they are immoral and you haven’t engaged with what I said. You just repeat yourself.
Homosexuality brings nothing but diseases and destroys the male gender. It womanizes men.
You have provided nothing to back up what you said. Nothing whatsoever! Go back to your brainwashing culture and defend homos as much as you like. You’re a disgust to the human race. You really are nothing more than a bag of chemicals! Either state facts (like giving sources to back up what you’re saying as I have done) or just shut up already. You’re not impressing anyone except sorry little atheists that are slaves to what is considered to be the norm today (which keeps changing by the year!).
I’m still waiting for you to provide sources where the Prophet married women against their will or allowing his followers to marry women against their will.
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You said you were done talking to me. So live up to your word and stop talking. But you can’t cus you know you have nothing intelligent to say and were proven wrong again and again while you yourself couldn’t provide anything but to repeat your bullshit.
You just want to do damage control by once again having the throwing out your emotional mumbo jumbo and having the last word as if that makes you victorious somehow.
Disgusting waste of molecules and space.
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-I don’t think financially supporting poor factory workers is quite the same as owning slaves (or “marrying” “concubines” if that sounds better)
I agree – its much worse.
The industrial scale slavery of today’s increasingly atheistic world is ingenious in that it exports slavery abroad, out of sight, out of mind.
You say you aren’t personally owning them, but this is precisely the point – slave ownership has been transferred from the household to modern corporations in an attempt to absolve us of any personal responsibility, which is why you can claim that its alright as long as you don’t own them yourself. Is this really morally better? I’d say its worse.
Are you actually aware of what rights slaves are entitled to in Islam? Have you compared it to the rights today’s industrial workers have? If not, you’re in for a shock.
Furthermore, Islam encourages the freeing of slaves for divine recompense. What incentive does your worldview provide to do the same? If you know anything about modern atheistic economics, it financially rewards increasing the number of people under slavery.
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LOL, the atheist harpy does what brainless atheists do best: endlessly repeat their personal opinions on what they deem right and wrong.
No facts, just endless babble. Good job harpy!
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Unmarried sex and homosexuality being unethical is the brainless personal opinion.
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Lol, sure sure. Whatever you say brainless harpy!
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Fasting is a good idea because it alters brain chemistry to make the followers of invisible (not real) god and religion susceptible to euphoria and brainwashing.
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Yet another narcissistic atheist thinking highly of him self.
Fasting has proven to be healthy even by your fellow atheists.
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What manner of fasting causes those effects?
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“Fasting is a challenge to your brain, and your brain responds to that challenge by adapting stress response pathways that help your brain cope with stress and disease risk. The same changes that occur in the brain during fasting mimic the changes that occur with regular exercise — both increase the production of protein in the brain (neurotrophic factors), which in turn promotes the growth of neurons, the connection between neurons, and the strength of synapses” —Fast and then go to church and during susceptible moments you’ll believe anything of a positive emotion. Preachers love it when you fast. How else could they solidify the unbelievable into your psyche? Prayer, meditation, fasting should all be avoided during preaching to protect yourself from believing the unbelievable.
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You seem to be unaware of how things work in our religion. Look into it. Now you’re just ranting incoherently.
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Playing doctor are we, Jim? You might want to actually read the scientific literature before opening your mouth. Just some friendly advice! 😉
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Lol. Nice try. I didn’t say fasting is unhealthy, I said it alters brain chemistry. During those changes indoctrination is made simple. Fasting is a challenge to your brain, and your brain responds to that challenge by adapting stress response pathways that help your brain cope with stress and disease risk. The same changes that occur in the brain during fasting mimic the changes that occur with regular exercise — both increase the production of protein in the brain (neurotrophic factors), which in turn promotes the growth of neurons, the connection between neurons, and the strength of synapses. Overall there are health benefits to fasting, but not while being indoctrinated.
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““Fasting is a challenge to your brain, and your brain responds to that challenge by adapting stress response pathways that help your brain cope with stress and disease risk. The same changes that occur in the brain during fasting mimic the changes that occur with regular exercise — both increase the production of protein in the brain (neurotrophic factors), which in turn promotes the growth of neurons, the connection between neurons, and the strength of synapses” —Fast and then go to church and during susceptible moments you’ll believe anything of a positive emotion. Preachers love it when you fast. How else could they solidify the unbelievable into your psyche? Prayer, meditation, fasting should all be avoided during preaching to protect yourself from believing the unbelievable.”
No source? And who are you quoting after the quotation marks? Yourself? Inserting your own commentary into what a scientist said about fasting?
And by the way, we don’t go to church. LOL!
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Sorry about that. It’s a hurried day. I have studied this at length over the years and here is one article, but there are many more. Christian preachers live by these mood swings and even companies guarantee more money to churches that implement their strategies. Not really that hard to put two and two together when the changes in brain activity are effected at key times in the service. I get you don’t go to church, but fasting and all the energy and hype of any large gathering can accomplish the same effect. http://www.collective-evolution.com/2015/12/11/neuroscientist-shows-what-fasting-does-to-your-brain-why-big-pharma-wont-study-it/
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LOL, no worries. I figured it was that link from Collective-Evolution.
But I frankly doubt that fasting causes such effects on the mind as you are suggesting. Christians don’t tend to fast much, but yes, they do believe some weird things. One could also argue, though, that to believe that life started from “nothing” is also quite unbelievable, but atheists believe this not on any physical evidence, but as a matter of “faith”.
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Really it’s matter of I don’t know…yet. I am willing to wait. My not knowing is not any proof god did it, because frankly that is just a theory too.
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It may be a “theory” but I feel there is strong evidence for God. When we look at any complex object, like a computer, we assume that it was made by someone. How much more complex is something like DNA? The genetic code contains billions of nucleotides, and it is far more complex than any computer code. To say that this code came from “nothing” seems to be pretty far-fetched, whereas to say that it came from an intelligent source (God) is based on a logical precedent.
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This could be a very long turn in the discussion. I’ll try and pick back up tomorrow. The other side of the coin is vey plausible and answers are coming, albeit slow.
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Jim,
Don’t confuse the illogical unbelievable teachings of Christianity, with the belief and practice of other more rational faiths.
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I’m not. They all have their oppressive techniques. Believing something you were raised in is hard to see your way out. When a religion has to make laws for mandatory observance it has irreconcilable flaws that can’t be explained away so they have to use forced compliance. No faith if any kind holds up under logical scrutiny because you have no evidence. Only feelings, which are easily manipulated en mass.
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Jim, I’m still waiting for you to justify how your atheist view when there is no evidence for the belief that life came from “nothing”. I showed you that there is a logical precedent for believing that things like the genetic code came from an intelligent source, but there is no such precedent for believing that something came from nothing. Your opinions about religion are irrelevant in this regard.
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What makes you think there was ever nothing? DNA has also proven that mankind has not derived from Adam and Eve or a single couple. There is plenty of room for exploration here but to assume god created everything is a fallacy that doesn’t hold up under scrutiny. Why? Why would an omnipotent being that is everlasting and has no needs create servants? Your premise is based on a belief and you have adhered to any explanation that would justify your belief. I do not have all the answers yet, but I am not willing to throw in with supernatural guesses that make me look silly. Your explanation to assume someone created the genetic code is just a theory, there is plenty of precedent to show there is an alternative You have just hand picked the religious explanation that suites you. There is zero evidence of god. For thousands of years you have tried to make a case and failed. I’m willing to wait another 50 rather than go with one of the 1000’s of immortals that have come and gone. This one will too. If your god is so good, why do his followers inflict so much misery around the world against all common decency and have to resort to force if it’s so agreeable?
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Jim,
The article link you provided does not give any evidence that the brain is more susceptible to indoctrination when fasting. The article rightly claims that the changes in the brain due to fasting are related to Health benefits. Beside the fact that you are begging the question, your argument that Fasting causes the brain to be more susceptible to indoctrination is based in the fallacy of Post hoc ergo propter hoc. There is no hard evidence to prove your assertion.
I would say that there are indeed some religions that hold up better under logical scrutiny than others. No one would deny that feelings can be manipulated (i.e. charismatic Christian Televangelists, etc.). However, your proposition that simply because a religion promotes a legalistic-moralistic system, it must be due to flaws in the faith is incorrect. In Islam the law is used as a resource and reference for proper guidance, rather than “forced compliance.” Allah has given us free will, and we freely choose to comply with his will. I do recognize that in recent times, the law has been misused in order to manipulate people for nefarious ends, but we should not be confused by this as have to remember that was not the original intent of the law. In order to fully understand the legalistic system of any faith you have to study it astutely and apply it properly in your own life.
The law or code are a strength in religion because they help to keep us from allowing our “feelings” to be manipulated into believing in false ideologies like Atheism. Outside the bubble of secular atheist thought, Atheism does not really hold up very well under logical scrutiny. Once you allow your mind to be convinced by the proponents of Atheism, it can be “hard to see your way out.” In the end, as an atheist you only have your own feelings which are also easily manipulated as well.
The forces of modern Atheism and secularism have applied more force than all of history and religion combined in order to force compliance with their world view upon the rest of humanity. Sobering thought.
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I understand manipulation is fairly easy, and I am as careful as I can be, but as a cautious observer, nothing in religion adds up to what it claims. God is love—has been dealt with bloodshed and miserable starvation and much much more than a blog post can delve in to. God is patient—while he casts those born to different ideology or tendencies to hell for not complying and genocide rules his past. Christian, Muslim, etc has met the world and dealt misery. Prayers—are never answered without hairsplitting excuses, or claiming god is mysterious in his ways. It’s a cop out. If every religious person in the world is tested on prayer, no one can recreate or prove any of it. God is merciful— Hah. If there was a god he certainly is not, nor are his followers. Scripture and religion are so full of contradictions is actually ridiculous. When there is a contradiction, check the premise. One of them is wrong, and the scripture is full of them as well as the people that try to interpret it. Things are NEVER what they tell you, in fact the opposite is true in almost all cases. For every one good thing appraised to religion, there are hundreds of countering evidences the contrary. That is why I don’t believe in god. Nothing adds up. And finding a geneticist to agree with your premise changes nothing when most in the field say otherwise. Last numbers I saw 80% of biologists and physicists are non believers.
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“What makes you think there was ever nothing? DNA has also proven that mankind has not derived from Adam and Eve or a single couple. There is plenty of room for exploration here but to assume god created everything is a fallacy that doesn’t hold up under scrutiny. Why? Why would an omnipotent being that is everlasting and has no needs create servants? Your premise is based on a belief and you have adhered to any explanation that would justify your belief. I do not have all the answers yet, but I am not willing to throw in with supernatural guesses that make me look silly. Your explanation to assume someone created the genetic code is just a theory, there is plenty of precedent to show there is an alternative You have just hand picked the religious explanation that suites you. There is zero evidence of god. For thousands of years you have tried to make a case and failed. I’m willing to wait another 50 rather than go with one of the 1000’s of immortals that have come and gone. This one will too. If your god is so good, why do his followers inflict so much misery around the world against all common decency and have to resort to force if it’s so agreeable?”
LOL, that was quite a rant.
It’s ironic that an atheist is using theological arguments to “prove” that God does not exist. So, most of your post is nothing by logical fallacies. None of the things you mentioned prove anything other than that you have a very narrow view of who God is supposed to be.
Coming back to the question, I have argued that the genetic code has a logical precedent. You responded with theological arguments, instead of providing any substantive rebuttal. Whether DNA has proven or disproven Adam and Eve is a different issue (and once which I suspect you have not researched too well). The fact still remains that DNA is a code that far exceeds any computer code that humans have developed. Since we know from logic and experience that a computer code is the work of an intelligent agent, it follows that DNA must also be from an intelligent agent.
Then you have the issue of proteins. DNA contains the instructions to produce proteins, but simply producing a protein is not enough. It then has to fold properly for it to work. If it misfolds, then it will not work and could actually be detrimental to the cell. Where did the first proteins come from? How did they arise and then fold properly?
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Those are theological arguments that have failed. They are no longer my beliefs as they don’t add up. Sorry if it sounded like a rant. All the best to you and your journey. Mine I will go alone as there is no one that will self evaluate and it seems everyone wants an answer now, whether it’s correct or not. I’m
Willing to wait.
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Jim,
I can understand your reservations with religion, especially if you are coming from a Christian background, since most of your criticisms aptly therein. But all religions are not the same and cannot be viewed through the lens of Christianity. If you only approach religion as a disillusioned ex-Christian and newborn atheist with an axe to grind, then you will never understand other religious traditions properly, outside of the narrow preconceived notions and biased view that you now seem to have.
I could address each of your concerns individually, but rather than doing that, I would simply turn your own statement around and say that for every one bad thing attributed to religion there are hundreds of good evidences to the contrary. I have noticed that those who are searching for reasons not to believe, often reflect on the evils and suffering of the world which they falsely assume are all caused by Religion, as if religion itself is the root cause of all problems in the world. They then incorrectly surmise that this gives reason not to believe in God or religion. I think this is the wrong approach and the matter at hand is much more nuanced, complicated, and intricate than this line of thought would allow.
Islam offers good answers to all your questions, however, one must first approach God with humility, humbleness, honesty, an open heart and an open mind free of rancor and bias.
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I never sought a reason to not believe. I was faithful 50 years and realized the excuses and props just don’t add up. Islam and Christianity are 600 years apart but on the same paths in religious evolutionary terms. Controlling g territory, food and sex is the religious origins and they do not come from any god. I wish you all the best in tour search, but I would rather go it alone in the world than be a part of something that endorses divisions in my opinion. I’ll stick with just being human to everyone I meet
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OK, best of luck in your search!
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Jim,
You are entitled to your view, but I respectfully disagree with your remark on the origin of religion, and I think that is a very pessimistic way of understanding. I wish you the best as well in your search, and I pray that Allah may guide you into the straight path of Islam, inshallah.
As long as you are “just being human to everyone I meet” you are a friend of mine. You may be interested to know that just being human to everyone you meet is also an Islamic ideal and a core teaching of the Prophet (sws):
“Humanity is but a single brotherhood, so make peace with your brethren.” ~ Qur’an 49:10
“Be kind, for whenever kindness becomes a part of something, it beautifies it.” ~ Prophet Muhammad (sws)
“Show mercy to those on earth and god will show mercy to you.” ~ Prophet Muhammad (sws)
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Amanda, do you really think that atheists, in general, fast at least a month per year, pray 5 times day constantly etc? You mentioned athletics and exercise. These are things that also muslims engage in over and above their religious practices.
Self-control is not inherent in atheism, but it is inherent in many religions. Tell me one idea or injunction within atheism that orders you to practice self-control. I can give you hundreds from Islam and even from Judaism and Christianity although I’m muslim myself.
Atheists have this self image of being more rational than us poor irrational undermensch who follow religions. At least present more convincing arguments than “But yoga and mui thai do the same for so many people, as does athletics and exercise in general”.
Moreover, Yoga which originates from religious practices. You can have atheist individuals who have more self-control than religious people but there’s nothing within atheism that encourages this. The point of the post is that religion encourages practices of self-control. This is a an undeniable fact!!!!
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Excellent points brother!
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If you fast without any food at all for more than 3 days many people experience euphoria. This is not a Islamic practice. However, I must admit than I’m tempted to try it. The euphoria part seems enticing.
Jimbo as many of his fellow atheists don’t have a clue about the religions they argue against. If you wan’t to become stupid and arrogant fast become an atheist.
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My comments are not shown ?
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Jesus said
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”
Freedom from what?
“You who are young, be happy while you are young, and let your heart give you joy in the days of your youth. Follow the ways of your heart and whatever your eyes see, but know that for all these things God will bring you into judgment.”
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Jim, you’re talking about fasting, preachers and indoctrination. In case you didn’t know we are muslims, so I don’t know why you’re on about preachers and indoctrination.
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Khutbas are for those who are Muslims. I don’t think I have been indoctrinated at a khutba.
What makes you think Muslims are being indoctrinated while fasting? Besides, if my mind is more receptive to ideas at the time of fasting, I would rather read the Quran.
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“You” refers to “Jim”.
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I imagine anyone can fast if they want to, for any purpose they so wish. I don’t know if fasting can be equated with making someone more ‘pliable’ or more easily manipulated – a quick Google search doesn’t seem to suggest this is the case, though it was only a very quick search and Google isn’t the be-all and end-all.
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