To be honest I am a bit confused. Yes really. I read the Bible regularly and I come across passages like this one below in 1 Samuel 15. According to the story God orders Israel to slaughter men, women, children, infants and animals, for a crime committed by their Amalekite ancestors three centuries previously. My problem is this – and perhaps some kind Christian can clear it up for me:
God is Love. He loves everyone, especially sinners. Furthermore, as God says through the prophet Ezekiel (chapter 18):
Yet you say, ‘Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?’ When the son has done what is lawful and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. The person who sins shall die. A child shall not suffer for the iniquity of a parent, nor a parent suffer for the iniquity of a child; the righteousness of the righteous shall be his own, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be his own.
So my question is this: How is it just for God to slaughter these people? What crime had they committed?
Thank you in advance for clearing up this mystery for me.
Categories: Bible
Blogging Theology 
can no Christian help me? 😦
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Obviously, if the bible text is true which I believe it is, sin can be imputed from one group of people in one generation to the same group in another generation.
The tribe which was alive and attacked the Israelites was not punished for this sin but their sin was imputed to a generation that descended from them.
In the case of Adam his first sin was imputed to all humanity.
Criminal laws are not allowed to punish imputed sins, as the texts you quote and others show, but God’s judgements do.
That’s why you and I will die because of Adam’s sin.
Does that help?
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unfortunately not.
God lays down an important principle in Ezekiel which I quoted above:
Yet you say, ‘Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?’ When the son has done what is lawful and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. The person who sins shall die. A child shall not suffer for the iniquity of a parent, nor a parent suffer for the iniquity of a child; the righteousness of the righteous shall be his own, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be his own. Judaism, then and now, does not accept the idea of original sin.
God clearly teaches that guilt cannot be transferred from one party to another: ‘The person who sins shall die.’ This is not concerned with criminal law but discloses the principle that the innocent shall not be punished for the sins of the guilty, by God or by man. So the idea of inherited original sin is by implication rejected. Judaism, then and now, does not accept the idea of original sin.
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Paul,
We first have to acknowledge that God is supreme over all and He is the one who decides our fate or what He does on this earth.
In Numbers 23:19, it is written “God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?” This is actually repeated again in 1 Samuel 15, the same passage you are questioning: (verse 29) He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a human being, that he should change his mind.” We also find a similar statement in Isaiah 43:13 “Yes, and from ancient days I am he. No one can deliver out of my hand. When I act, who can reverse it?”
The difference between God saying in Ezekiel that a child shall not suffer the iniquity of the parent and the passage in 1 Samuel 15 is that God actually made a decree a long time ago that He would wipe out Amalek’s name and did not change His mind. If the Amalekites were remorseful we do not know how things may have turned out, but even in the time of Saul, they were still wicked people as the passage also tells us – 1 Samuel 15:17 Samuel said, “Although you were once small in your own eyes, did you not become the head of the tribes of Israel? The Lord anointed you king over Israel. 18 And he sent you on a mission, saying, ‘Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites… So we see here that the Amalekites were not actually innocent, they continued in the wicked ways of their ancestors. As for the children and infants, who most people would say are not yet at an age to understand sin or good and evil, it is in God’s greater wisdom and understanding as to why He allowed such a thing to happen. If their parents were all killed, where would they go or how would they be able to take care of themselves? If the Israelites took them in they may have been bitter towards them and caused rebellions or other trouble. I do not have answers to that, like I said it would be in God’s greater wisdom.
I will also reproduce what I wrote before in terms of understanding the historical context behind God’s command:
Anyway in terms of the Amalekites in 1 Samuel 15, the reason behind the sanction by God is historical. 1 Samuel 15:2 “This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt.”
If you isolate 1 Samuel 15 by itself then of course it sounds terrible and evil. First of all, the Amalekites were a brutal nomadic people who lived nearby to the Canaanites. They fought the Israelites in an unprovoked attacked whilst the Israelites were still wondering in the desert, long before they reached the land of Canaan that God had promised them in both the Bible and Quran. Exodus 17:8 – The Amalekites came and attacked the Israelites at Rephidim… 13 so Joshua overcame the Amalekite army with the sword. 14 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Write this on a scroll as something to be remembered and make sure that Joshua hears it, because I will completely blot out the name of Amalek from under heaven.”15 Moses built an altar and called it The LORD is my Banner. 16 He said, “Because hands were lifted up against the throne of the LORD, the LORD will be at war against the Amalekites from generation to generation.”
This happened on numerous occasions as we see:
Numbers 14:45 – Then the Amalekites and the Canaanites who lived in that hill country came down and attacked them and beat them down all the way to Hormah.
Judges 3:13 – Getting the Ammonites and Amalekites to join him, Eglon came and attacked Israel, and they took possession of the City of Palms.
Judges 6:3 – Whenever the Israelites planted their crops, the Midianites, Amalekites and other eastern peoples invaded the country.
Finally, In Deuteronomy 25:17-19 God said that one day He will remove the name of Amalek for all that he did to the Israelites – “Remember what the Amalekites did to you along the way when you came out of Egypt. When you were weary and worn out, they met you on your journey and attacked all who were lagging behind; they had no fear of God. When the LORD your God gives you rest from all the enemies around you in the land he is giving you to possess as an inheritance, you shall blot out the name of Amalek from under heaven. Do not forget!”
Taking Exodus 17:14-16 and Deuteronomy 25:17-19 together, you see that God made a decree and a promise that one day He will punish the Amalekites and in Deuteronomy 25 He specifically gives a time for this, when the Israelites are at rest from enemies around them in the land that they possess. This just happened to take place at the time of King Saul and the prophet Samuel. When God makes a promise about something He doesn’t change it, we have no idea how He felt in doing this. He could have been saddened by the consequences of Amalek’s evil just as with the flood in the time of Noah, but we also do not know the fate of those who died when God made this command. For all we know He could have brought them up to heaven as they were not responsible for Amalek’s evil.
From this one rare occasion in the Bible, I think this situation had nothing to do with Amalek’s descendants suffering the iniquity of his sin, otherwise every single enemy that Israel had faced in the past would have suffered the same fate as the Amalekites under God’s command to Israel such as the Egyptians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans etc. Funnily enough, all these once great nations who conquered or waged war against Israel have all either become extinct or no longer have the power and authority that they used to, including the once great Arab empires who also conquered the land of Israel at one point. Yet after all of that, Israel still stays standing till this day with it’s culture, traditions and history preserved through the Biblical scriptures.
This tells me that the God of Abraham has stayed true to His promised and His covenant after all these thousands of years, and has not forgotten the people of His covenant. You can find this scattered throughout the Bible such as in Isaiah 41:8-14, Jeremiah 30, Deuteronomy 28-30 and more.
I’m guessing this will still not be enough to clear up anything for you, but what else can I say?
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Marvin I see you follow Sam Shamoun’s methodology of replying to a question about Christianity by bringing up Islam. Sorry no can do. Not interested. I will consider only your comments as they relate to the actual discussion of this post.
Note: I have edited out your irrelevant digressions into other religions. Be grateful – with Sam I deleted all of 4 very long winded off topic comments he made today.
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You say:
‘As for the children and infants, who most people would say are not yet at an age to understand sin or good and evil, it is in God’s greater wisdom and understanding as to why He allowed such a thing to happen. If their parents were all killed, where would they go or how would they be able to take care of themselves? If the Israelites took them in they may have been bitter towards them and caused rebellions or other trouble.’
I am reminded of the Nuremberg trial after WW2 when key Nazis were on trial for crimes against humanity. Some admitted that they deliberately killed Jewish men and women, but the Nazis had also killed Jewish children and babies. What was their justification for these crimes? Their answer, Marvin, was very similar to your apologetic for genocide – these Jewish young would grow up to avenge the deaths of their parents, so it was best to exterminate them too.
So you are justivation for liking babies has an excellent pedigree Marvin – in the Third Reich.
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Your other justification for this genocide seems to be that God had promised to kill the Amalek’s and was simply carrying out his promised threat. But God often changes His mind in the Jewish scriptures – it is one of the mercies of God that he does.
But you have not deal with the real problem here at all. God speaks to the erroneous views of those who say, ‘Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?’ When the son has done what is lawful and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. The person who sins shall die. A child shall not suffer for the iniquity of a parent, nor a parent suffer for the iniquity of a child; the righteousness of the righteous shall be his own, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be his own.’
It is crystal clear God teaches here that guilt cannot be transferred from one party to another: ‘The person who sins shall die.’ The principle is that the innocent shall not be punished for the sins of the guilty, by God or by man. So when we also consider 1 Samuel 15 we have a contradiction in the Jewish scriptures. But that is nothing unusual. There are many contradictions and discrepancies in the Bible.
Furthermore, you write,
‘In Deuteronomy 25:17-19 God said that one day He will remove the name of Amalek for all that he did to the Israelites – “Remember what the Amalekites did to you along the way when you came out of Egypt. When you were weary and worn out, they met you on your journey and attacked all who were lagging behind; they had no fear of God. When the LORD your God gives you rest from all the enemies around you in the land he is giving you to possess as an inheritance, you shall blot out the name of Amalek from under heaven. Do not forget!”
But this is very odd. The name of Amalek has been preserved for all eternity in the Old Testament! And the name is even being mentioned today on Islamic blogs!
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One major Christian strategy: Invent another “God”!
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“God clearly teaches that guilt cannot be transferred from one party to another: ‘The person who sins shall die.’”
That’s true but the nation as a whole, consisting of the the righteous and the unrighteous together, was under the judgement of God and all were punished by this judgement:
Famine, Sword, and Dispersion
Ezekiel 5 v 12 A third part of thee shall die with the pestilence, and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of thee: and a third part shall fall by the sword round about thee; and I will scatter a third part into all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them.
5 v 10 Therefore the fathers shall eat the sons in the midst of thee, and the sons shall eat their fathers; and I will execute judgments in thee, and the whole remnant of thee will I scatter into all the winds.
The sins of the nation are clearly imputed to all the people as all the population is punished in some way or another.
Those who remain obedient to God will live to experience the restoration of the nation. Those who sin will perish in captivity.
The meaning of the statement “the person who sins shall die” should be determined by it’s context.
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